/lit/ - Literature

>>10370344
that guy who gathered sticks of shabbos

Iago
Macbeth
Heathcliff
The Underground Man
Pyotr Petrovich Luzhin in Crime and Punishment
King Claudius

>>10370344
I mean, was really portrayed as a villain? I'm pretty sure people at the time were aware of how to treat a donkey

>>10370348
kek this and the 48 children mauled to death because some hairlet couldn't handle the bantz

>>10370352
>Heathcliff
This, he gets a bad rap.

My waifu.

Shylock

>>10370458
Came here to post this.

Svidrigailov to be honest, best character in C&P

>>10370352
>Iago
In what fucking universe is this possibly true?

>inb4 “prevented miscegenation”

>>10370374
Why did he come back to Wuthering Heights?

>>10370989
Fuck you, asshole. I came here specifically to post that he prevented miscongeniality, but you just had to fucking ruin it, didn't you? I'll tell you something, motherfucker. Back in my day, we didn't have asscunts like you inb4ing replies you don't fucking like. 4chan wasn't your own personal god damn hugbox that you could police with your inb4s and your smug anime girls. It was a place of god damn culture. You spineless fuck. I swear on my god damn mum, mate. The next time I see an inb4 against something I am about to post, I will shit fury upon you like you've never god damn seen, fucker.

Snape

>>10370344
Father Dolan

>>10370989
miscegenation is by definition wrong

>>10370344
Pastor Steven Anderson of Faithful Word Baptist Church

>>10370982
my dark skined fellow, he stole the show

>>10370344
Girolamo Savonarola

Every time I hear his name mentioned, it's someone complaining about the great works of art lost because of his bonfires.
They conveniently seem to forget how he fought the church from becoming even more of a cesspool controlled by the rich.

Hitler

>>10370458
>>10370970
Wrong.

>>10370344
>>10370348
>>10370355
as far as the Bible goes, the most sympathetic is probably the guy who touched the ark to stop it from falling. i also always felt bad for the dudes who couldnt solve samson’s retarded riddle.

>>10370344
The Amalekites
>Hey just let 3 million people march through your country
>Eh, no
>YOU WILL BE GENOCIDED

>>10370458
This

>>10370344
svidrigailov

>>10370982
>>10373029
wow you beat me to it.

what a cool guy i want to become him

>>10370982
true talks

>>10370344
Hitler

>>10370458
>>10370970
>>10372999
not this.

Shylock wants to kill Antonio, and for what? Because he lost his money, spit on him, and Christians have been mean to Jews? Where's the forgiveness? The mercy? At 2.8.12 Solanio relates Shylock's words after realizing the catastrophe: "My daughter! O, my ducats! O, my daughter! Fled with a Christian! o, my Christian ducats! Justice! The law! My ducats and my daughter! A sealed bag, two sealed bags of ducats, of double ducats, stol'n fro me by my daughter! And jewels, two stones, two rich and precious stones, Stol'n by my daughter! Justice! Find the girl! She hath the stones upon her, and the ducats!

Ducats>his only daughter

http://christianthinktank.com/sticksnstones.html
http://christianthinktank.com/qmeanelisha.html
http://christianthinktank.com/rbutcher1.html
https://www.rationalchristianity.net/touch_ark.html

And as for Samson’s riddle, the Bible doesn’t even portray him as a moral person.

>>10370344
All of the villains in my diary desu

>>10371947
Man the philistines got it up the ass. They weren't even treated as actual people. God was like "yeah whatever man, just kill them and take their clothes to pay off your gambling debts". That was one of those moments I seriously reassessed the viability of me converting to the religion. And I was reading the book with that in mind.

>>10373201
>Shylock wants to kill Antonio, and for what?
He signed the contract for his life over willingly. Was Shylock an asshole? Yep. Was he greedy? Absolutely. Did he do anything wrong? No, not really. Being a greedy asshole isn't exactly morally upstanding, but he didn't break any laws. Antonio and Bassanio were wealthy merchants who I'm sure had their own share of greed, and we know they were antisemitic. Greedy assholes on both sides. The losing side of the contract breaks the law and and piss all over the principle of justice to shirk their way out of a legally binding document.

>>10373251
I won't argue that he didn't break any laws, but the dude is so rabidly hellbent on vengeance that in certain scenes it's hard not to imagine his lips foaming.

It is definitely a strange case, though. Shylock did come up with the pound of flesh agreement. Who does that? It's Old Testament, and not the most despicable thing in the world, especially if you're Kierkegaard or Nietzsche or human. But then he says "A pound of man's flesh taken from a man is not so estimable, profitable neither, as flesh of muttons, beeves, or goats." He's saying it's not going to make him money........ What the fuck does he want? Shakespeare is so fucking relativist and interpretable but MoV stands out as an oddball because it is hard to wholly back up one's interpretation. Like with Portia, I can see the defense of both ends of the spectrum, although I side with her as being high on the ranks, right below Rosalind and Cleopatra and even Katherine.

>>10371947
>the guy who touched the ark to stop it from falling
Can u give me the ref for that? That sounds interesting but I don’t remember it

>>10373348
2 Samuel 6
1 Chronicles 13

>>10373348
http://biblehub.com/2_samuel/6-7.htm
Context:
https://www.rationalchristianity.net/touch_ark.html

>>10373374
Thanks!

>>10373222
>I was reading the book with that in mind.
If you've read it then you know that they were wicked people. You knew before you opened the book that God punishes the wicked. Either you don't believe they were wicked or you don't believe that the evil should be punished. Or you're just a liar.

>>10371947
>>10373370
>>10373348
The Lord is known in the judgments He makes (Psalm 9:17). David and his people were getting puffed up and careless. They were breaking one of God's commands by carrying the Ark in a cart in the first place. The punishment of Uzzah put the fear of God back into them.

>>10373477
I'm not saying God was wrong, just that Uzzah is a particularly sympathetic character, seeing as I probably would have done the same thing in his situation and been smote for it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that not all of the Egyptians firstborns and soldiers were awful people, and neither were the Philistines who were killed for their foreskins/coats/land/whatever else. This doesn't mean that I doubt God or have a weak faith, it just means I'm not a brain-dead puritan.

I bet you believe in Sola Scriptura and support Israel.

>>10373477
I don't believe people should be killed for wicked reasons such as paying off gambling debts, no matter what perfidious language a bunch of kikes may use to describe them. I think the book is a load of shit yo be desu and an affirmation of the usual level of retardation humans tend to have around anything of significance. For one thing it has a more harrowing conclusion than any cosmic horror ever conceived. Only solipsistic idiots like, well just about everyone could read such a depressing book and relate the whole thing to how they are redeemed and they are saved. That goes for you as well.

>>10371673
literary novel featuring him as a character when? either in a french style or something like philip roth

>>10373477
morally unserious person. baby brain. not "tough-minded", soft-headed using bluntness to cover up intellectual and moral weakness.

>>10373558
Death wasn't the end for Uzzah. We don't know what his current situation is.
>I'm going to go out on a limb and say that not all of the Egyptians firstborns and soldiers were awful people, and neither were the Philistines who were killed for their foreskins/coats/land/whatever else.
Same goes for the innocents that may have been among them. Our religion's primary focus is on our eternal existence after our physical death, on the bodily Resurrection unto eternal life or the second death. It's not helpful to consider those historical events without that context.

If you're not saying God was wrong, then what are you saying? Why am I a zio-prod for believing that God is perfectly just?

>>10373584
>Only solipsistic idiots like, well just about everyone
I'd rather be the dumbest guy in heaven then spend eternity in hell with geniuses like you.
>>10373601
Good thing I don't have to rely on baby brain or my intellectual and moral weakness. I'll just believe what God says and keep going to church.

>>10373636
I don't like where I am going but I'm not going to try to play the being that apprehends the entire universe.

>>10373651
>antinatalism

>>10373625
>Why am I a zio-prod for believing that God is perfectly just?
because
>If you've read it then you know that they were wicked people.
My point is that they, in all likelihood, were not particularly wicked. All have sinned and all are deserving of death, that doesn't mean I can't feel bad for Uzzah, or even for the Philistines. I'm not mad at God for killing them or allowing them to be killed, but I'm not rejoicing in it either. I accept it for what it is, in humility, realizing that it could just as easily have been me. I have definitely fallen short of the glory of God in many ways.

Someone else being smote isn't cause for self-adulation, it's cause for reflection, and for thanks rendered, trembling, to God for his grace.

>>10373696
>My point is that they, in all likelihood, were not particularly wicked.
God commanded them to be destroyed because they were wicked. If they weren't wicked, God is a liar. If you believe that, you're not a Christian.

>>10373734
>God commanded them to be destroyed because they were wicked
what are you even talking about? read Exodus 11 and stop making Christians look retarded.

Old Man Karamazov

>>10373203
Holy shit, it baffles and scares me and also makes me laugh deeply on the inside that people like this exist. I'm not even an atheist but wow, the level of justification in this for some of these stories is frankly astonishing and awful.

>>10373788
I was talking about the Philistines. You didn't say anything about the Egyptians in the post I replied to.
Here's what I've said:
1)The Philistines were wicked
2)It's right for God to punish the wicked
3)The Lord is known in the judgments He makes
4)The Lord is perfectly just
5)we don't know what has happened or what will happen to Uzzah or the innocents who God killed in the Bible after their physical deaths

Besides you misunderstanding my last post, which of those makes Christians look retarded?

>>10373962
(same poster) one thing I'll give though is that the one on the Amalekite one was a pretty good analysis and also incidentally happened to be pretty good, fair-handed examination of just war theory. If I were to ever believe in just wars, it would be by something like the reasoning the author used.

>>10371167
For love.

>>10373962
Here's what I believe on the whole topic. If this makes me look bad to atheists, and makes you feel embarrassed to be a Christian, so be it.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

>>10374032
meant to reply to >>10373788

>>10371947

>as far as the Bible goes, the most sympathetic is probably the guy who touched the ark to stop it from falling

You have to read between the lines. The fact that the ark wasn't secure in the first place demonstrates a severe disrespect to it. Him touching it is merely a cherry on top when it comes to him fucking up.

Javert

>>10371564
>when he doesn't know that the "mis" comes from "miscere"
get off /lit/

The touching the Ark thing is less about punishment and more based on the idea that the power of God is overwhelming and will fuck you up by mere contact unless you take the proper precautions. That's why the OT has this obsession with ritual purity, the belief that seeing the face of God will kill you etc.. In this view being careless with the Ark is like being careless with nuclear waste.

>>10373203
>get a lecherous buffoon to be the judge of your divinely chosen people

Brilliant stuff Yah

>>10374087
he was the judge they deserved

>>10373590
It's only a matter of time, my friend. I'm not IFB--not even a prod-- but Pastor Anderson would make a great character if portrayed sympathetically.

>>10374084
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets?

>>10370344

Anton Chigur

>>10370344
Kain, as god despised him from the start.
That's actually an allegory on humankind.

>>10374146
Nah, all he had to do was offer better sacrifices. He didn't have to go and kill a nigga.

>>10374146
God despised Cain because he offered something trivial to The Lord and it showed a lack of reverence

>>10374155
He didn't even despise Cain, he despised his offering.
>Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted?
He's saying "just do better in the future and we'll be cool."

>>10374154
>an atheist parrots pseudo-gnosticism

>>10374165
who are you talking to?

>>10374175
the guy above you lol

>>10374008
I talked about the Egyptians literally one post prior, but just to sate your autism, try Judges 14 (Ch. 15 for extra credit). Samson literally kills 30 random Philistines (later burns their crops and kills 1,000 more) because of his own retardation.

To say that these Philistines or those Egyptians were particularly deserving of death is totally speculative and more probably false. God, as the giver of life, can justly take life away from any of us, duh, but to say that every poor sod killed in the Old Testament was uniquely deserving of death is to lack humility (or more likely, to never have read the New Testament). You shouldn't resort to condemning others for their shortcomings, reserving for yourself a certain moral superiority, instead you should thank God for sparing a sinner like you, for we are saved by the grace of God, so that none may boast. For an Old Testament analogue, try Genesis 19:16.

God could just as well strike me down for my iniquities, but he hasn't, and for that I am exceedingly grateful. Reading stories about Uzzah et al. doesn't make me haughty, it makes me tremble in fear. There but for the grace of God go I.

>>10374032
You're missing the point. God is righteous. God is just. God is compassionate (Jonah 4:11). But if you read the story of Uzzah, and your takeaway is just 'lol he deserved it good riddance', you're missing something important.

>>10374039
What about all of the others who didn't fasten it, and made no effort to save it (including King David, the guy who orchestrated the whole thing, and who was 'a man after God's own heart.' Would you have willingly defied him?)? God foretold that anyone who touched the thing inappropriately would be killed, but it's plain to see why the dude might have done it. Its easy in hindsight to say 'bro God could have stopped it from getting smashed himself', but is that really going to be your first thought when your religion's most sacred object appears to be at risk of shattering? The ark was obviously not invulnerable nor inalienable, otherwise the Israelites would still have it.

>>10374046
this is a good one

>>10374183

Go fuck yourself.

>>10370344
Dubs checked.

Who is John Galt?

>>10374197
After you sir, after you!

>>10374200
>checks dubs gets dubs in the process

also, dubs

>>10374202
>when you make an autistic guy so mad he pretends to be a character from an obscure 80s action show.

>>10374183
Ok, so you think I'm celebrating the deaths. I never said anything like that, but if that's what you take away from my posts, then this conversation is pointless. Are you a homosexual, a woman, or a methodist?

>>10374165
How is that pseudo-gnosticism?

>>10374238
He said
>Kain, as god despised him from the start.
This kind of petty, cruel creator god is the Demiurge.

>>10374251
I think that's a stretch and says a lot more about subliminal reservations you may have about your own beliefs than anything else. For one thing his understanding is that of a layman who hasn't even read genesis.

Light Yagami

>>10374265
read St Irenaeus's "Against Heresies". You'll be surprised at the influence gnosticism has over modern man, even if they don't know that's where their ideas are from.

>>10374276
This is on the level of feminist cultural critique where the shape of perfectly utilitarian objects like a radio tower is "phallic" and represents patriarchal oppression.

>>10374220
that guy isn't me

>>10374197
why so mad

>>10374232
dude im sorry that youre retarded and can't read or comprehend my posts, but your literal first post in this convo implies that I'm wrong for showing sympathy towards Uzzah/a few random Philistines, and you insinuate that they were punished for a unique wickedness (which may be true in some technical sense regarding Uzzah, but is probably not true as it concerns random Philistines and Egyptian firstborn sons).

All I'm saying is that you should probably be a bit more humble, a suggestion I offer on the basis of your hasty and unsparing condemnation of others. We are all sinners.

>>10374304
Was >>10373222 you?

>>10374304
quote what you're talking about. I've replied to a lot of posts.

>>10374325
No

>>10374328
I'm going to quote every one of my own posts
>>10371947
>>10373370
>>10373558
>>10373696
>>10373788
>>10374183
>>10374304

>>10374363
I read them all. I'm trying to figure out what part of my posts you disagree with.

>>10374363
quote the parts of my posts you disagree with. Literally every single part of every post you disagree with. No sense in beating around the bush. show me all the places I'm wrong. Go 100% hog

>>10374370
>tfw you pretended to be that guy just to start an argument between two people who otherwise agree

who /devilish/ here?

>>10374387
lol. ah well. Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on us. Become Orthodox everybody

Captain Ahab

>>10373477
>Either you don't believe they were wicked or you don't believe that the evil should be punished.
to be clear: this was not in reply to me.
Obviously the Lord will punish evil, but all men are deserving of death, and no man is righteous, not even one. I'm glad that God doesn't just wipe us all out immediately like he did in the deluge, or to make a statement, like he did with the firstborn of the Egyptians. I'm similarly glad that he didn't smite my Gentile ancestors, who, assuredly, were wicked in many aspects, but, fortuitously, were located nowhere near the land of Canaan. For example, I don't think some Egyptian newborn, or a calf for that matter, were particularly morally culpable for the slavery of the Israelites. Just as Rahab was an aid to the Israeli spies in Jericho, I'm sure plenty of Egyptians were sympathetic to the plight of the Israeli slaves. Through no particular virtue or vice of their own, some Gentiles were spared these tribulations while others perished.

>They were breaking one of God's commands by carrying the Ark in a cart in the first place. The punishment of Uzzah put the fear of God back into them.
this was in reply to me, among others.
As far as the scriptures tell us, it was not Uzzah's decision to transport the ark by cart, he merely touched it when it was about to fall. He violated a direct commandment, sure, but how many direct commandments do each of us violate every day? I deserve to die, but I do not die immediately. I am afforded time to repent, like the citizens of Nineveh. I am humbled by the fact that God has chosen to treat me graciously. I do not consider myself better than Uzzah

>>10373625
>Death wasn't the end for Uzzah. We don't know what his current situation is.
he went down to the bosom of Abraham to await judgment.

>If you're not saying God was wrong, then what are you saying?
That God is just, but I am extremely grateful for the mercy he has bestowed upon me. I'm glad that I don't have to die because Pharaoh wouldn't let some slaves go. Temporal punishment does not directly correspond with moral wickedness, and to assume it does is not biblical.

>>10374438
Wrong, he got that sandnegro moonworshiper on board.

>>10371011
How did he do anything good?

>>10370352
Iago is just a spoiled cunt who thinks he's entitled to some shit and probably secretly wants to bone Othello because he can't stand his own wife and has some a hateboner from Othello.

>>10371011
>burning down an entire library