/lit/ - Literature

Adorno thought Jazz was utter degeneracy and was always a proponent of high culture

pathetic that nowadays even Jazz is considered high culture

>>10317330
Old whitey can't stand the fact young people are lsitening to new music and having sex

>muh dik

>>10317330
Adorno was redpilled AF. this perfectly describes to white numale rap fans in the current year.

>>10317330
seems true though

He seems fixated on castration.

I play in a jazz band. I have mixed feelings about jazz, but I will agree it's probably led to more harm than good.

WTF i hate jazz now

lil peep

>>10317347
>poltard calling a literal karltural marxist "redpilled"

What's his reasoning behind the first sentence? I don't get how Jazz is emasculating

>>10317435
>having a literal 2-dimensional conception of politics

>>10317435
Marxists are right about a lot of things but I take issue with their conclusions and their solutions.

>>10317444
>person that uses the words "redpilled" and "numale" saying ">having a literal 2-dimensional conception of politics"

>>10317472
>not using provocative meme words to spur low-IQ audiences

>>10317469
You just admitted that you think you're wrong but stick to your retarded opinions anyway

>>10317472
>>10317479
S I P

As a German he probably got jazz confused with oompah music and plump German boys in lederhosen.

Not much faggotry amongst jazz musos, at least not in the 40's-60's when this tart was writing.

>>10317482
lol

>>10317435
'cultural marxism' was actually highly redpilled and masc. In minima moralia, Adorno totally destroys feminism and transgender ideology. I'm white, but I believe the Kabbalah is legit redpill knowledge, that's why the jews tried so hard to keep it away from us goyim.

>>10317491
>peak years of bop
>not much faggotry

>>10317482
I'm not even a pol-tard, but how is that viewpoint wrong?
I agree with Marx about his analysis, and many theorists bring really interesting ideas about the contradictions inside the system, but that doesn't mean I believe the Marxist project is the most suitable for humanity in the long run.

>>10317330
The ironic thing about Adorno is that today his culture critique is mostly used by the alt-right.

>>10317479
>willfully pretending to be retarded
>presuming anyone has IQ lower than yours

>>10317520
>the Marxist project
What is that? Sounds like you believe in some sort of weird coherent 'Left' that doesn't resemble anything in the real world.

>>10317531
without their knowing it. they still cry about culture marxist bogeyman while yet arguing along the general theses that critical theory leveled against the culture industry decades ago

Yeah, and rock and roll is the music of the devil!!

Thanks for stopping by:
>>>/mu/

>>10317536
Umm... the idea that the workers can obtain the means of production and that in turn will bring us a better system that we currently have

>>10317536
most 'leftists' in the current year AD don't actually care or know much about Marx or Marxism beyond FULLY AUTOMATED GAY COMMUNISM and other basic bitch tier facebook memes. It's all about getting performatively triggered and feeling superior to low hanging fruit like youtube skeptics and pepe kids, while carrying water for the managerial gynocracy and the liberal establishment.

>>10317551
since the 60s, the left has learned to love the spectacle and getting stuffed with whatever slop the culture industry is putting out this week. capeshit becomes high art provided it's deemed 'empowering' enough. Not keeping in schedule with diverse 'prestige TV' will be a capital offense in the near future if the neolibs get their way.

>>10317423
>it's probably led to more harm than good
why?

>>10317330
*blocks your anti-jazz path*

find a flaw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4WThKhRr5A

adorno was right about literally everything

>>10317701
>niggers
Two major flaws already and I didn't even play the video yet.

>>10317558
That's not a very good definition of marxism, which is primarily concerned with the fundamental mode of production ie. the way things are produced, not who owns that production. Worker owned capitalism is still capitalism.

>>10317722
liar

>>10317698
It's accelerated artistic laziness. I don't think jazz was ever created to be "lazy," because it's beauty lies in its simplicity. But now we have hip hop and rap, lazy musicians, all popularized because they think they are continuing some sort of progression.

>>10317717
> implying this rendition of Lush Life isn't the GOAT standard, as technically flawless and thematically profound as Flaubert or Joyce at their best

the guy who wrote the music and lyrics was a gay black man too, you fucking mad?

"Romance is mush, stifling those who strive. I'll live a lush life in some small dive, and there I'll be while I rot with the rest of those whose lives are lonely too."

Is Lush Life, dare I say it, /our standard/?

>>10317733
He's absolutely correct, you've fallen for reddit tier liberal revisionism

>>10317717
This isn't /pol/

>>10317734
How is jazz so simple?

>>10317745
What makes jazz "jazz" is a variety of patterns in minor keys and patterns of swing-notes. Overtime, many circles have been made. B flats can only go so far.

>>10317409
every man secretly is right? its literally the worst thing that can happen to a human or pretty much any animal.

>>10317337
>nowadays even Jazz is considered high culture
no, it's not. it's considered nerdy shit for weird loser geeks

>>10317734
> meme rappers are consciously taking up the tradition of hard bop

wow that's enough of 4chan for today

>>10317742
why do you lie?

>>10317755
I'm not sure if you're realizing this or being sarcastic

But yeah

>>10317506
wat? maybe on the way, way, way down low. but it certainly wasn't the public face of bop, nor any other form of jazz.

>>10317757
Why do you assume I'm lying and not just in disagreement? Fucking nutjob

>>10317472
>>10317479
>>10317485
are energy drinks the cigarettes of the angry birds generation?

>>10317737
>appealing to public consensus
>calling Joyce ""profound""
Is it even humanly possible to be more of a mouth-breathing pseudointellectual pleb than this?

>>10317768
Unironically yeah

>>10317769
> a bloo bloo bloo!: the post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap3P8Fpqay4

>>10317783
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hkgMAVgF_M

>>10317583
yes, there is a difference between normies and ''''revolutionaries'''', how perceptive

>>10317717
>>niggers
the outcasts of society have always been the entertainers of the mainstream, be that dwarfs, gypsies, jews or blacks

>>10317717
why the racism?

>>10317783
>a bloo bloo bloo!: the post
>literally spongebob reaction pic: the argument
Wouldn't expect anything else from a niggerloving retard that thinks that babby's first normiecore post-bop and stale ballads are pinnacles of artistic achievement. Go wank over Joyce's ""profundity"" in your dedicated fartsniffing thread with the rest of the unwashed Anglo plebs.

>>10317855
why the racism?

>>10317479
>pretending to be retarded to get brainlet's attention
The real cancer of 4chan

>>10317560
Yes

>>10317765
Because you lie.

>>10317531
Indeed this kind of irony is not the only thing the Right has done to the Left, but certainly one of the top 5.

>>10317858
>why the racism?
Because I'm a liberal and I believe in liberty

>>10317928
>thing
time

>>10317796
lefties are nothing but smug uppermiddle class leeches who feel superior to the subhuman proles who can't appreciate high culture like beyonce and didn't get to spout buzzwords in college. Google ''poor white communities opiate crisis'' and every single article on the first two pages is a well paid white managerialist using it as a plataform to prattle about 'white privilege' and how the unwoke chuds in flyover country really had it coming. These people do not want revolution, they are nothing but narcissistic aspiring managers of the system that is degrading every aspect of our existence.

>>10317971
that's one hell of a world view you got there, laddie

>>10317971
Read books often, pal? Doesn't seem like you do. This is a board for the discussion of literature and philosophy. >>>/b/ might be more up your alley.

>>10317929
*tips fedora*

>>10317337
Why? The best jazz is certainly high art.

>>10317971
There are a lot of people, and they do a lot of different things for a lot of different reasons, there exists a lot of knowledge and a lot of ignorance. What should be done? If there were no lefties can you describe some differences in the world?

>>10317330
The twisted jewish mind. These people hate you, white people, get it yet? This hatred is bred into them and their goal is to treat you "like inmates of an insane asylum.”

>>10317971
autistic bait
>>10318020
autistic fish

>>10318052
if there were no leftys the scale whould break and we could all escape the accursed prison

>>10317491
>As a German
How dumb are you and why did this mistake go uncorrected? How could anyone even mistake the hebrew rat in the OP as a German?

>>10318067
>His mother, a devout Catholic from Corsica, was once a professional singer, while his father, an assimilated Jew who had converted to Protestantism, ran a successful wine-export business.
pretty german desu

>>10318060
>that image

Nice try Mohammad

>>10318079
A jew is a jew, dude. Adorno hated Germans.

>>10317337
>>10317423
>>10317427
>>10317439
>>10317701
>>10317737
Adorno's views on jazz should be understood as criticisms of pop music (which is the type of radio-friendly, mass audience jazz he is referring to), not of the jazz associated with the likes of Coltrane, Braxton, Mingus etc.

>>10318104
>Adorno hated Germans.
Most Germans, and most people in general, do.

>>10318104
Maybe he took the whole gassing his people personally

>>10317330
Would Adorno have liked this?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ti75KIWXfBI

>>10318104
Adorno was literally killed by hippie tits and he thought household appliances were fascist.

>>10318120
Because of jews though. Germans have been subjected to a degree of anti-self propaganda that is unheard of and unhealthy.

>>10318123
Never happened.

>>10318141
>Never happened.

>>10318141
Confident Germans is the most dangerous thing in the world, literally weaponized autism. I'm glad the Chosen Ones(tm) are keeping them down.

Adorno had a deeper and more autistic knowledge of music theory than any of us, I doubt we could understand fully what he means here

>>10318160
You need to be put down, though I'm sure the crevasse you inhabit is hell enough.

>>10317535
>>10317867
>tfw rightaccelerationist post situ K guerrilla subverting the products of libshit hegemony.

>>10318160
Thats true but its only putting a lid on a Volcano, the more the pressure builds the more violent the inevitable explosion will be

>>10318118
t. a true scotsman

>>10317749
What the fuck

>>10318194
>the meaning of terms don't change over time

>>10318181
Landians are truly Stirnerites with extra fedora on the side.

>>10317855
>post-bop

>A certain gesture of manliness, be it one’s own, be it that of another, deserves mistrust. It expresses independence, surety of the power of command, the silent conspiracy of all men with each other. Earlier one anxiously called it, awe-struck, the whims of lords, today it is democratized and is played by film heroes for the benefit of the lowliest bank employee. The archetype for this is the good looking man in a smoking jacket, who enters his bachelor’s pad alone one late evening, turns on the indirect lighting, and pours a whisky-soda: the carefully recorded fizzing of the mineral water says what the arrogant mouth does not; that he despises whatever does not smell of smoke, leather and shaving cream – above all, women, and for that very reason they swarm all over him. The joys of such men, or on the contrary of their models, which hardly anyone alive really matches, for human beings are always better than their culture, have altogether something of the latent act of violence. By all appearances, this is threatened to others, though he has long since had no need to do so, sprawled on his easy chair. In truth it is past violence against himself. If all pleasure sublates earlier displeasure, then here displeasure is raised – as pride in bearing it – unmediated, untransformed, stereotypically into pleasure: unlike wine, every glass of whiskey, every puff on the cigar still recalls the reluctance, which it must have cost the organism, to accustom itself to such powerful stimuli. According to their own constitution, the he-men would thus be what they are usually presented as in film scripts, masochists. The lie is concealed in their sadism, and it is as liars that they truly become sadists, agents of repression. That lie is nothing other than repressed homosexuality, which emerges as the only approved form of what is heterosexual. In Oxford one can differentiate between two kinds of students: the “tough guys” and the intellectuals; the latter are equated almost without further ado to those who are effeminate. There is a great deal of evidence that the ruling class polarizes itself according to these extremes on the road to dictatorship. Such disintegration is the secret of integration, of happiness of unity in the absence of happiness. In the end the “tough guys” are the ones who are really effeminate, who require the weaklings as their victims, in order not to admit that they are like them. Totality and homosexuality belong together. While the subject falls apart, it negates everything which is not of its own kind. The opposites of the strong man and the compliant youth fuse into a social order, which unreservedly asserts the masculine principle of domination. By making everyone, without exception – even presumed subjects – into its objects, it recoils into total passivity, virtually into what is feminine.

maybe Adorno was just another jew-boy cuck who projected his own insecurities by writing inane drivel

>>10318017
>>10318020
>>10318054
What's with these hostile reactions. Is this a controversial opinion? I assumed it was pretty commonly accepted that liberal lefties are shit stains who don't give a fuck about the people in whose name they supposedly fight the system.

>>10318299
Wow, that's embarrassing, Adorno. Nice "no you are gay" to an audience of effeminate intellectuals.

>>10318331
wasent trying to be hostile to you just the person who responded to you as your post came off as kinda obvious so i assumed it was poorly constructed bait.

>>10318331
He's talking about Communism but using 'liberal lefties' as exemplars of Communist ideology. You'd have to be a troll or willfully retarded to do so.

>>10318367
lmao no actually retarded leftys are the literal front runners for communism. death is a preferably alternative to communism

>>10318367
He said lefties.

>>10317330
This is the very definition of the phrase "pretentious wank"

>>10317330
I think he was talking about the more mainstream, commercial simplistic jazz of the day where a guy sings over some simple instrumentation about romance and moonlight.

>>10318194
"On Jazz" was written 1936. Do you mean to tell me that jazz of '36 is the same as jazz of the 60s?

I've always found it interesting how Pomos instantly embrace their inner liberalism when confronted with the idea that /pol/ would fucking love Adomo and Derrida if they actually read.

>>10317971
B U R N H A M

>>10317435
To be fair /pol/'s been in the process of discovering leftist critiques of consumerism, and a lot of NRx takes on American foreign policy are essentially bizarro-Chomsky (US running around promoting progressivism rather than capitalism).

>>10317971
Good post, pathetic that people are getting triggered by it.

>>10318672
>ally bizarro-Chomsky
Lots of things could be bizarro Chomsky since nothing he says respecting politics is original.

>>10318672
That's because the architects of the "Alt-right" (/pol/) are highly educated in continental philosopher, when that trickles down they interrupt it in a descartes--esque fashion.

>>10318672
>tfw /pol/ becomes an ultraleft insurrectionist warmachine in an effort to own the libs.

>>10318118
Wrong, Adorno was well-aware of Mingus or whomever the pseuds are pretending is representative of high culture these days

>>10317583
>The left has learned to love the Spectacle
You can't "love" a spectacle, or a simulacra, it envelops you without your consent. If someone "loves" a spectacle, then they're coping

Test<

>>10318352
It's a bad sign whenever an author resorts to word salad in order to convey a very simple point.
>posting as a manly man is gay because it still involves the act of posing
So deep!!!111

>>10318846
>posting as a manly man is gay
A freudian typo.

>>10318800
tbf I see the normies who rave on about tv and thinkpiece metadiscussions thereof as barely sentinent meatblobs deserving of violent punishment. Workplace shooters and ISIS wannabes are america's unsung heros. I have lost faith in politics and humanism, the only thing left is transformative violence as praxis.

>>10318758
>he was well aware of Mingus 10 years before Mingus released his first recording
The state of /pol/ intellectuals.

Tfw when no one actually posts jazz

>>10318867
>typo
>not becoming purely masculine by pretending to homosexual and attaining a state of pure indifference to others' perspectives

>>10318918
>becoming purely masculine by pretending to homosexual

>>10318933
Didn't you read this>>10318299

>>10318299
What the hell, did he honestly write that?
I mean, it can make sense if you wrap your head around and it's an argument that has been spoused a lot on history, I think I've seen quotes by Greeks that are along the same lines (working out = bad, meditation/intellectual work = good), however it reads like it was written by a fedora lord who hates chads or a kid that got bullied on school a little too much.

One could argue that if the masculinity of others makes you uncomfortable (to the point of writing that), then the issue might lie in yourself and your acceptance of the feminine role. There's no logical contradiction between being an "intellectual" and a "tough guy", but whatever Theodor, you just showed a good Slave Morality example.

>>10317330
He argues that jazz implies castration, but isnt black music much more virile and phallic than classical?

>>10318957
Nah, his point is self-evident, but he's just too retarded to put it in good prose.
It's gay to pretend to cultivate an image of masculinity because it's feminine to pose for others and it puts you in the passivd position of awaiting their judgements.

>>10318960
Why? Because le black sex god maymay?
The command and precision of beethoven is much more virile.

>>10318976
Blues, Soul, Jazz, Hip Hop is often about sex, love and dirt (muh dick, basically), whereas classical “white” music is highly sublimated and sexless.

The right-wingers may not realize it, but Adorno is actually their greatest ally and laid the ground for the intellectual critique of the cultural logic of modernity.

>>10318991
>classic white music is sexless
Kek

>>10318996
This is a myth popularized among left-wingers who have deliberately ignored trends in ring-wing thought for the past several decades, either due to ignorance or intellectual incapacity to comprehend the depths of conservative philosophy. In point of fact, right-wingers have been flocking to Adorno since at least the reign of W., and it speaks very poorly on a NYT-reading retard who is unaware of this very basic reality

>>10318953
No and now I wish I hadn't.

Adorno laments the destruction of the family and the traditional lifestyle of peasants in Minima Moralia

>>10318884
Mingus "or whomever," my niggurath.

http://www.academia.edu/208239/A_Defense_of_Adornos_Critique_of_Jazz

https://www.allaboutjazz.com/according-to-adorno-a-portrait-of-jazzs-harshest-critic-by-marithe-van-der-aa.php

>Adorno's first writing on jazz appeared in 1933, at which point it was published in the Europäische Revue, a conservative and national socialist magazine. The essay, titled Abschied vom Jazz ("Farewell to Jazz"), was prompted by the radio ban on the so-called "niggerjazz," that had recently been imposed on German broadcasting stations. In this article, Adorno ironically claimed that the prohibition of jazz was unnecessary, since it had already reached the end of its short musical lifespan and had succumbed to all kinds of commercial pressure.

>>10319001
it's bullshit, okay. but you have also to understand that Adorno was a complete melomaniac, one of those people that who thought that music was only Beethoven, Brahms and Schoenberg.

>>10319033
I don't get it. Are you supporting my point or retarded?

>>10318299
>According to their own constitution, the he-men would thus be what they are usually presented as in film scripts, masochists. The lie is concealed in their sadism, and it is as liars that they truly become sadists, agents of repression. That lie is nothing other than repressed homosexuality, which emerges as the only approved form of what is heterosexual. In Oxford one can differentiate between two kinds of students: the “tough guys” and the intellectuals; the latter are equated almost without further ado to those who are effeminate. There is a great deal of evidence that the ruling class polarizes itself according to these extremes on the road to dictatorship. Such disintegration is the secret of integration, of happiness of unity in the absence of happiness. In the end the “tough guys” are the ones who are really effeminate, who require the weaklings as their victims, in order not to admit that they are like them.


This is great imo. Tell me you don't see parallels with the way the concept of masculinity functions in imageboard hypercultures. The jock and the victim exist as part of one and the same fractured psyche. 4chan invented an imaginary class of jocks to bully them for being numale soyboys

For Adorno, Jazz was the purest exemplification of the commodification of society and its people.

Many people like to think "oh he wasnt really attacking jazz, he was referencing x or alluding to x"

In reality, Adorno probably just realised whilst listening to Jazz music one day that it was indeed a subversive medium intertwined with modern Capitalism and focused on it in an eccentric way.

>>10319017
Take for example, basedjew Paul Gottfried, author of 2edgy4u classics such as 'MULTICULTURALISM AND THE POLITICS OF GUILT :TOWARDS SECULAR THEOCRACY'

>>10319091
>4chan invented an imaginary class of jocks to bully them for being numale soyboys
>literal 5 days off reddit embryo's analysis of board culture

>>10319068
You selectively misquoted the text, and knocked down a strawman.

In short, you posted in deliberate bad faith, and are accordingly beneath contempt.

Unironically, kill yourself.

>>10319137
I didn't quote anything at all, are you having an autism attack or something?

>>10319137
>>10319033
again, the jazz of the time he was writing (popular big band / swing) is not similar to avant-garde jazz decades later

>>10319146
why do you lie?

>>10319154
Read the linked articles here >>10319033, dummy, if you're actually interested in understanding.

>>10319176
Is this some post-ironical satire of /pol/? Are you mentally challenged? I didn't bring up a single quotation. Also your articles and precisely the part you quoted from them literally state the same thing me and other anon are stating - Adorno wrote from a different epoch of jazz, long before the emergence of current standards widely considered masterpieces.

>>10318217
>tfw bought a ragecomic meme fedora for accelerationist purposes
> tfw relish the sacrilege inherent in such a debased bundle of signifiers

>>10319197
You're a liar and an idiot in that misread the import of the quoted text; read the whole article, and the other one. Neither author takes the position you do.

>>10317330
I got the impression that Adorno is, above all, a cultural elitist. He is deemed to be a far left-winger, but actually seems to hate Marxism (as form of utalitarian, economic-centered worldview) as much as he hates Capitalism and seems to crave for the good old days of aristocratic elitism, when peasants knew their place and everything the unwashed masses loved was looked down upon.

tl;dr Adorno is a reactionary hack with little empathy for the plight of common people, who won a lot through Capitalism (at least in Germany)

>>10319224
>You're a liar and an idiot
Powerful argument. Please, relinquish your autism from my board.

jazz qua pop music, not jazz qua avant-garde of later developments (cf. schoenberg, webern which adorno championed). adorno is concered with jazz as such insofar it is categorized by pop/culture industry standardization, repetition and infantalization

>>10317768
this post is out of touch in a great way

>>10318118

all jazz is trash though, anon.

>>10317971

>>10319493
The so-called "avant garde jazz" accomplished nothing other than commodifying those innovations . In that regard, something like Coleman, Mingus,or Ayler are fare worse than Benny Goodman. They could never escape the realm of pop music no matter how strange they sounded.

>>10318383
>Fallout 3 memes and category errors with no regard for definitions
hmm
>>10318391
>liberal lefties
He probably doesn't know what the word 'liberal' means

>>10319561
t. pleb
what do you listen to?

>>10319628
free jazz is not pop music by any musicological sense of the term

>>10319638
That only shows thee failures of that discipline. It was released through the same channels and absorbed in the same manner. The only thing it challenged was other pop music, and it effectively neutered the capacity for various avant-garde ideas to challenge anything else. How it can be described as anything other than pop music is beyond me.

>>10317330

The argument, in all its complexity and careful construction, is no more complicated than this.

It also happens to be wrong. Try something for me, if you don't agree: try actually /listening to the music that Adorno composed/.

>>10319659
much of post-war academic music was released in a similar fashion too

>>10319698
But Stockhausen is absorbed in a very different way than Ayler. They also serve vastly different social functions.

But to fir the widespread release of recordings blurred the lines between types of music. Folk music has effectively ceased to exist in America since the Weavers and Bob Dylan.

>>10319725
free jazz serves a function analogous to that of art music. what function do you think it serves?

>poltards getting THIS triggered by Jazz
Hilarious

>>10319725
>functional harmony is more relatable than atonal aleatory autism therefore it fails at being artistically innovative
*tips*

>>10317330
I find it funny that there was a time when even blatant Marxist Jews hated niggers and were against miscegenation.

>>10320135
Careful not to conflate European ideals or ways of thinking with that of jews. Jews aren't idealistic like us. They have no principles beyond what's good for them and bad for the goyim, and will say whatever to avoid too much heat being put on the group in the period in which they're jewing. This was more pronounced in Adorno's time when there was still somewhat of a European elite keeping the kikes in check, whereas now they feel free to push the limits as far as they can, which is why western culture is spiraling out of control into clown world.

>>10318299
Wow. I guess there's something strangely reassuring about virgins vs chads being a timeless motif reflected even on the heights of cultural criticism.

>>10318581
This post, or the archetype of it oft seen on here, is fundamentally wrong and always from the perspective of individuals who don't understand the jewish mindset. These people aren't realizing what the goals of FFS jews actually were.

Same goes for the posters who think the alt right uses Marxist tactics. Jews project themselves and their behavior onto others. Think of the jew having stereotypical mother issues then Freud saying that all people want to fuck their moms. He's not really talking about everyone, he's talking specifically about jews. People on the alt right are merely pointing the projection out, which those who don't get the jewish problem mistake as something it's not. People like myself are drawing attention to how the initial critique of white culture was an inherently a jewish critique, but people who aren't wise to the jew have trouble internalizing this because their entire reality is rooted in the jewish culture that was constructed in place of the white culture after the ideas of people like Adorno were implemented. Chicken and the egg.

>>10320135
>critiquing jazz as a music ruined by captialism means you hate blacks
Wew lad

>>10318299
actually arguably astute profundities in there

>>10318846
lel, you couldnt understand what you (maybe) tried to read

>>10318800
depends on your definition of spectacle, doesn't it. I have heard sporting events, fairs, concerts, circuses being called spectacles, and people enjoying them. Be more careful, or if I am in the wrong, I will.

>>10320135
It actually means you hate the king.

>>10318888
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHgKhURycEk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt_fmhtePoc

>>10318957
>>10318969
why do all of you miss the points of that quoted blurb. Some are complaining that the language is too complex but im sure a monkey might say the same of a dictionary.

>>10318299
Intellectuals need to be shot. Holy shit.

>>10319224
back to l*ddit please

>>10319629
If you want to argue that liberalism isn't an ideology of the left I'm all ears, buddy. Try not to base your argument on everything but communism being right and wrong.

>>10317535
>>10317479
>>10317472
Try Hollywood meme shaming. It's fun! Raise your Lit meme awareness rating. xb

>>10317330
Is Duran Duran's Rio considered Jazz?

When is the complexity of an expression increasingly beneficial?

>>10319659
>>10319638
>>10319628
all, or most, art and cultural, all forms of music, including what adorno liked, was inseparable from economics, capitalism, supply and demand.

Unless royal court composers who the public may have rarely heard. But the public would have their folk singers. The progression of history has been the public, the masses gaining more comfort and power. So now they can fund and market and supply their own music, be it jazz, or funk, or pop, or pop rock, or punk, or indie... etc, or classical.

Adorno is just saying, going back in time to any village with folk singers and saying 'this popular music is distasteful'?

Why do people like it? Drum circles? Rhythmic music? I think thats what it comes down to partially, rhythm, repetition, hypnotism, dance, bodily, guttural, intuitive, feeling.

because it doesnt inspire higher thoughts, or inspire one towards greatness? It just just pleasant background sound? Something to burn some calories dancing too, and smile, be genuinely happy, but thats it? When music can be so much more than dancing and happiness?

>>10318047
Nope.
>>10318118
No, all of that jazz is pop music too
>>10319661
Adorno made amazing music. Much better than jazz.
Want to hear post-african rhythms? House will do it. Avoid jazz like you avoid jizz, my heterosexual brother.

>>10317337
at the time he was writing it was low culture, now it has been elevated to a kind of high-middle culture

>>10318194
Jazz is almost meaningless as a genre. Compare headhunters to one o clock jump to the shape of jazz to come. They have nothing in common besides improvisation. He was writing when jazz was thought of as big band pop music for dancing. Bebop was developed in the next decade using a range of complex harmonies that were only recently developed theoretically. It's extremely complex art steeped in the tradition of western harmony that most trained classical musicians would have a very hard time with.

>>10320765
>this is what idiots actually think
fun fact: art music isn't about 'muh complexity'
Let me guess, you used to like 'progressive metal'?

>>10317330
>Adorno hates Jazz
>defends serialism

what?

>>10317409
Well he is Jewish

>>10317423
This is a good response.

>>10320777
He still does.

>>10318194
>1936
>before Bop
>before Free Jazz
>before Post-bop
>a time when Jazz was asynonym for Swing
Lol.

Jazz music strated out as another form of popular music but evolved into a conversational form of music much like Western Art music. The greatest Jazz musicians applied theory at the same heights of sophistication of Western art composers. The tradion of Jazz however is rooted in Improvisation. The sophistication lies entirely in it. This is the primordial distinction. Few of the great Art composers were well trained enough at any instrument to be able to compose what they wanted at will without extensive rumination; Western Art music didnt develop an improvisational tradition. The improvisational language of the great jazz musicians is as rich as any symphony. Great Jazz musicians were more than familiar with Western Art music and their own music reacted to it. I want to see some references of Adorno about Jazz after 1936. Was he even aware of Bill Evans. How can any "classicla snob" be able to refute the quality of Bill Evans' music. The man used the impressionist theories masterfully and arguably perfected it into a language. He studied great composers extensively (mainly Bach) and his music reflected this understanding. What about Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization? An actual contribution to music theory entirely based in Jazz? I dont see how Adorno could reject the conversational nature of Jazz post-swing.

>>10320716
>all jazz is pop music
Factually wrong.

>>10320615
((((intellectuals)))

>>10320549
What he said obvious but poorly written. You think it's profound because incompetent abstraction induced you to gape like a yokel transported to Times Square Garden in New Years Eve

>>10320833
>Factually wrong.
Somebody doesn't understand what popular music.
>The greatest Jazz musicians applied theory at the same heights of sophistication of Western art composers
Art music isn't an application of theory. This is why you idiots will never understand.
Go be a moron on /mu/. I forced you out of there and I will force you out of here.

>>10320833
>takes Jazz Appreciation once

>>10320833
>Western Art music didnt develop an improvisational tradition
Factually wrong.

>>10320841
>>10320844
Look at all of this lack of arguments. Really glad to know that for a board that prides itself on intellectualism and you great patricians who appreciate such intellectually rich music are either unwilling of incapable of engaging in an intellectual discussion.

>10320854
Western Art Music is the tradition of the written notation. It doesnt have a developed improvisational tradition. Not saying there doesnt exist improvisation in western art music.

>>10320844
>hears Beethoven No.9 once

>>10320841
>Art music isn't an application of theory.
Then tell me, genius. If it isnt about the sophistication of its composition, what makes Classicla music sooo much better than Lady Gaga and Kanye West? It sounds good? Oooh, wow great. The only thing that makes Classical music distinct from popular music is the theory behind, what comes with it. The sophistication of the creative process and the fanciful intention of the composers. Bach wanted his music to exalt the greatness of God. You really think he would use the same forms and concepts present in popular and folk music? Sure, he might adapt them though. What can be said about classical is what makes it distinct from popular forms. If you listen to classical and all you can say it how great it sounds, you're a fucking pleb with no greater claims to patricianhood than those listening to Death Grips or whatever /mu/ raves on about.

>>10320523
>Freud saying that all people want to fuck their moms
sauce

>>10320840
What he was saying was 'tough guys' are unreasonably 'jerks', what he is basically describing is male 'ball breaking', and jockness, which is competitive, showing off strength.

He is saying there is no need for this because, look at how far we society has advanced, we are no longer wild animals:

and further more, the nerds, dweebs, intellectuals, the jocks bully, are part of an inseparable cohesive whole, of the successful current society.

I think he is suggesting, as long as the strong brute man, who is compelled to dominate others, show off strength and what not, is dependent and using society, he is really a subject or object of society, proverbial cog, so his displays and acts of bullying or what not are kind of false compared to the ultimate strong man that is the whole, of whoms teet even he babyly suckles from.

I was going to say I think I disagree with him that 'the strong need the weak to be strong in comparison to something'

""In the end the “tough guys” are the ones who are really effeminate, who require the weaklings as their victims, in order not to admit that they are like them.""

I presume he means, they are like them, in belonging to the same system, but maybe also he means, they are like them, in that, they may too have feelings sometime, or get sad, or be in pain, or something.

>>10320876
>implying your replying to actual /lit/izens and not /the_pol/ tourists
Shiggidy.

>>10320841
>Art music isn't an application of theory.
Kek. Let me guess. Art music is something that gives you "le feels"?

>>10320876
>It doesnt have a developed improvisational tradition

"J.S. Bach, while he was alive, was little known as a composer, and his works were criticized for being dense and old-fashioned — but he was renowned as the greatest improviser on the organ in Europe. A famous French organist once came to town to compete against him, and, hearing him improvise while warming up, promptly left town. Bach put improvisation skills at the center of his teaching. Most of his instructional manuals are how-to books in improvisation. He often wrote out several different versions of his most popular pieces, such as the inventions, to show how a student might improvise on the structure."

"Handel wrote one treatise on performance – and half of it was devoted to improvising dances and fugues."

"Mozart was most famous in his day, according to scholars, “first as an improviser, then as a composer, then as a pianist”. In a famous piano competition in front of the Pope, Mozart and Clementi not only had to improvise in the final round, they had to improvise pieces together.Beethoven became famous in Vienna not as a composer but as an “astounding” improviser. It was a full ten years that he was famous as an improviser in Vienna before he started to become well-known for his compositions, and he improvised publicly until the end of his life.Beethoven wanted nothing more than to study with Mozart, and they met a total of one time, at a party. This was Beethoven’s one chance to impress Mozart, to show everything he knew – and to do it, Beethoven asked Mozart to give him themes to improvise on. When he was done Mozart turned to his colleague Attwood and said, “Someday, he will give you something to talk about.”"

"Schubert was almost completely unknown as a composer in his day – but he was renowned as an improviser, playing in taverns all night improvising waltzes, dances, character pieces, and drinking songs."

"When Liszt came to towns to give a path-breaking solo piano recital, which he invented, he immediately went to the town’s opera house to see what works were being performed by the opera and ballet. He always closed his concerts with virtuoso improvisations on the themes of the local operas and ballets currently being shown."

>>10320898
100s of years ago, it was likely difficult for average folks to on their own get paper and piano and compose, and get access to orchestra for performances. Much easier to get some tambourines and guitars and violins and thus folk music: and thus for classical music, there needed congregation, infrastructure, institution.

And then the folksters got ahold of such, and modern classical music was born, compositions could become easier to produce, with less effort, as one might claim jackson pollock painting took less effort than da vinci painting.

>>10320982
>classical composer were great improvisers
>therefore improvisation is inherent to classical music and classical pieces
It's like watching a child with extra chromosome trying to compute cohomologies. Stick to uncovering jewish plots.

>>10320876
>muh arguments
Not intellectual. Back to plebbit.
Arguments are the antithesis of intellectualism.
>It doesnt have a developed improvisational tradition.
Not an argument. At least be consistent you stupid fuck
>>10320898
Then tell me, genius. If it isnt about the sophistication of its composition, what makes Classicla music sooo much better than Lady Gaga and Kanye West?
Retard spotted. Yes yes your sonic fan fiction is just as good as Maldoror.
>>10320977
Let me guess, you're a teenager with no knowledge of music theory or aesthetics.
Typical jazzfuck. Go OD on heroin, bourgeois hipster cunt.
>>10320993
Your argument was that they could not improvise. That is false, that is revisionism. Go back to plebbit, I dealt with you fucks for a year straight and I'll deal with you fucks for another year. Teddy has blessed with great endurance.

>>10320997
>Your argument was that they could not improvise.
No, the argument was there's no tradition of improvisation inherent to classical music. There was even a specific mention that it's not denial of presence of improvisation per se. Learn to read.
>whole post is literally "edgy 13 year old discovers 4chan and spergs with insults"
Yes, people like you do indeed drive away goodposters. A shame.

>>10320993
inherent, idk. Improvisation is only partly inherent in jazz, lots of it is and was composed and recorded strictly. But ok, I see your point, a big part of jazz is improvising and soloing.

This is really, this topic, a question of "what can music be", from pleasant background noise, to entertaining energy expenditure, to sublimity, to community relations, to blowing off steam, to attempting to create 'beauty' whatever that is and can be, to create anything at all, to organize sound in time

Musical relativism, artistic relativism, good music is only that which is good to you. The only standard by which to judge the value of something, is if you like it.

Where adorno may have a point is if some theoretical musical creation literally had some like 'death causing' tones, analogy being if a food producer came out with a new food thats main ingredient was rat poison,

Then can be said: this form of art is literally bad for society.

And there is the slippery slope of that extreme towards:

This music is causing an increase in drugs, violence, single mothers, adultery, promiscuity, etc.

>>10321009
>No, the argument was there's no tradition of improvisation inherent to classical music
No, that was your claim as to why they couldn't improvise. You are wrong.
You are the 13-year-old here. I have been here for years. Jazz does not belong here, take that trash back to /mu/ or other archaic boards. We're post-modernists here. We actually read Adorno. That means 'muh arguments' doesn't work here, despite so many plebbitors like yourself thinking otherwise.

>>10321015
>it's a pol child attempts post-ironical falseflagging episode

>>10321015
>We're post-modernists here. We actually read Adorno. That means 'muh arguments' doesn't work here

>>10321015
Kek, (you)

Daily reminder that the alleged "soyboys" /lit/ hates are the pinnacles of aesthetic appreciation and a quantum leap ahead of the flyover rubes when it comes to cutting edge culture. Anyone that doesn't listen to the contemporary equivalent of Jazz, i.e. rap music, is a pleb. Inner city progressive and nuanced white men truly are the giants among men when it comes to appreciating and driving the cultures of the Other. None of you would even know your favorite music if it weren't for us telling you about it.

>>10321019
You're the /pol/scum.

>>10321045
>"soyboys" /lit/ hates
>literally a freshly minted poltardian buzzword
>/lit/ hates
Create your own buzzword, ascribe your own buzzword, strawman your own buzzword, falseflag your own buzzword, critcize your own buzzword. /pol/ is really just an autistic child with vivid fantasy.

>>10321084
the music I like is better than the music you like

>>10321092
Yes, I have been to /mu/. I know their motto.

>>10317330
>Ummm... can someone explain this to me?
He called jazz listeners cucks.

i would pay great money if i ever could witness adornos reaction to miley cyrus, nicki minaj, justin bieber and hip hop

>>10321045
It's nihilistic hipsters like you that destroyed any folk tradition America ever had. You've made music far worse no matter ow you intellectualize it.

>>10317337

>pathetic that nowadays even Jazz is considered high culture

You can't read music or play an instrument, can you?

>>10317330

Mr. Adorno wasn't much of a music critic was he?

>>10321293
>You can't read music or play an instrument, can you?
Not necessary to understand that it does little more than facilitate sexualized dancing.
>Mr. Adorno wasn't much of a music critic was he?
Only the best of the 20th century.

>>10321293
>Mr. Adorno wasn't much of a music critic was he?
If anything he comes off as a linguist that has listened to Coltrane's meditations once and couldn't fathom it, so instead he does like a fox with the grapes.

>>10321310
>it does little more than facilitate sexualized dancing.
I can do this with classical too. Classical faciclitates sexualised dancing.
>coltrane facilitates sexualised dancing
>bitches brew facilitates sexualised dancing
Stop talking about shit you know nothing about.

ITT: falseflaggers

>>10321310
>Not necessary to understand that it does little more than facilitate sexualized dancing
kek

this is an extremely bad thread

>>10320780
how's that nigger bop music similar to serialism, retard?

>>10321310
>grand balls in vienna were literally peak peacocking and victorian-tier titillationism
>mfw schubert was a literal pornographer with his waltzes facilitating sexualized dancing
The state of (you).

this is an extremely bad thread

>>10317971
>Google ''poor white communities opiate crisis'' and every single article on the first two pages is a well paid white managerialist using it as a plataform to prattle about 'white privilege' and how the unwoke chuds in flyover country really had it coming
wtf it's actually true

>>10321314
Yeah, cause Coltrane's drug addled pseudo-theology is so deep. You've been duped by marketers kid.
>>10321323
>I can do this with classical too. Classical faciclitates sexualised dancing.
You cam say that about anything. The difference is that my assertion is correct, and yours isn't. Jazz originated as the soundtrack to red light districts, and it has never escaped that tradition. Most of the classical tradition is incapable of facilitating the dancing of its listeners to any extent (those pieces which were made for this purpose are the the tradition has to offer and should be forgotten to history), it was also fortunate to be presented in environments which discouraged such behavior.
>coltrane facilitates sexualised dancing
>bitches brew facilitates sexualised dancing
Coltrane is perhaps the worst offenders since he tried to give such movements a spiritual importance, and it's more prominent in Davis' later music than his earlier stuff. Even something like Brotzmann's Machine Gun does little more than encourage the swaying of hips. It's great music to intellectualize your adolescent libido (I did this myself, and I've had the misfortune of seriously engaging with the major works of this genre), but I really can't understand why else someone could tolerate it.

>>10318299
Was he the original numale?

>>10321391
>Most of the classical tradition is incapable of facilitating the dancing
>what are waltzes, polkas, mazurkas, marches, ballets
>andante jazz ballads are good for dancing
You sound like a collosal pseudointellectual /mu/tard that understands neither music theory nor aesthetical philosophy. Neck yourself.

>>10321391

(not that guy)

Based on this post it seems like you're subordinating your experience of music to your views on history/politics/culture.

Would it be possible for you to return to a sense of the world that allows you to engage it without running all of your experience through a theoretical framework first?

That's the danger of Marxism (and I'm seeing something similar here in this thread). When I was a Marxist I made nearly all my observations within a Marxist theoretical framework and became, first and foremost, a political being. This made me walk around the world like I had a severe sting in my asshole that I couldn't quell, twisting up my face at everything.

I don't miss those days. One needs balance: remember that all the theories and ideas that you can express in words are mostly incorrect.

Being is a mostly ineffable phenomenon.

>>10321386
Reminder that the current opioid epidemic destroying white communities was started by the Sackler family who runs Purdue Pharma, a company that bribed politicians and doctors to allow them to prescribe oxy en masse. When those people can no longer afford it or get it from doctors they switch to cheap heroin that is most likely being brought into the US by the CIA/mossad via Afghanistan. And the Sackler family is, of course, jewish. When you dig into every problem we in the west currently face, you will always find a jew. We have a reason for continuing to bring up the jewish problem. These are mentally twisted people who hate whites and work like an ethnic mafia. It's why they've been expelled 359 times, and why we have to make it 360+ if we ever expect to fix these problems.

>>10321391
>Jazz originated as the soundtrack to red light districts
Wrong. It began as big band touring the country, by white folk too. Nothing sexual about it.
>the entirety of the second paragraph.
So, you have nothing to say that proves your sayings. You just adhere to your position by saying things that aren't true. Amazing debate right there m8.
>intellectualize adolescent libido
>can't even hold off with the ad hominem
I actually play an instrument and I can recognise what Jazz offered to the world of music while not being so spastically sanctimonious as to say that it "isn't as good hurdur", just a bit fancier.
And I didn't even mention Ornette. I don't have to.

>>10321422
>a collosal pseudointellectual /mu/tard
>implying a /mu/trad would ever diss Coltrane or Davis
They would only do that to be contrarian about other Jazz artists. This kind of absolute purple prose gagging is unique to /pol/ pseuds. See how he equates classical with jazz, when people literally considered Tchaikovsky degenerate as well. Hilarious.

>>10321422
Polka is a form of folk music. It's not part of the classical tradition. And I already acknowledged them in my post.
>(those pieces which were made for this purpose are the worst the tradition has to offer and should be forgotten to history). And yes, all jazz music is good for some manner of dancing.

>>10321431
>And yes, all jazz music is good for some manner of dancing.
Dance to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNbD1JIH344

>>10321431
Polka is also a classic form used by virtually every great classical composer, cretin. Stop exposing us to your brainletism and wikipedia parsing abilities.
>waltzes and ballets are bad because I need to win an internet argument
Literally unironically kill yourself.

>>10321444
really bad example, lad. one could easily swing to this tune

>>10321427
>Wrong. It began as big band touring the country, by white folk too. Nothing sexual about it.
Didn't realize that's how Jelly Roll Morton got his start. Thanks for the history lesson.
>And I didn't even mention Ornette. I don't have to.
I was going to use him as my example but decided that Brotzmann made my point better.
>>10321428
>See how he equates classical with jazz, when people literally considered Tchaikovsky degenerate as well. Hilarious.
Unlike those nineteenth century prudes, I'm talking about the past rather than the present. The popularization of jazz was the cause of an unprecedented social decay. The popularization of Tchaikovsky failed to have the same effect. The first world was would have had to be fifty or sixty times more deadly in order to have a comparable impact.
> This kind of absolute purple prose gagging is unique to /pol/ pseuds
I would never engage with such unpleasant people. I just really despise the popular music of America. Even Stephen Foster and George Cohan make me want to vomit.
>>10321465
Classical music frequently draws from folk music polka is just one such example.
>waltzes and ballets are bad because I need to win an internet argument
Depends on their purpose. I have no problem with pieces that incorporate the dancing of performers, but music the encourages the listener to dance is always harmful.

>>10321517

please respond to

>>10321425

>>10321523
He's absolutely correct, but it's suborr to the garbled mess that is my mind rather than a consistent framework like Marxism.

>>10321517
>The popularization of jazz was the cause of an unprecedented social decay.
A music genre can't be held responsible for debatable social decay.
You need to realise you don't really hold any p-Oh, you hate all american music. Alright everyone, we got a pseud here. Nothing to see. Move along.
And while we are at it, Ornette compostions>>Everything released from Europe in the 20th century.

>>10321539
>Ornette compostions>>Everything released from Europe in the 20th century

>>10321391

You've literally been unable to make a single supporting claim for Western art music the whole thread. You're a terrible troll and a clear /pol/tard crossposter. You're intimidated by Jazz and have a huge inferiority complex in regards to your own intellectualism and hide behind meme language and insults. Its people like you that sometimes makes me wish there was so kind of moderation in this site to force people to some kind of degree of coherence.

>>10321425
That shows less of Marxism framework being incoherent and more of you being knee deep in ideology

>>10321647
Says the marxist

>>10321662
Pure ideology works both ways

>>10321647

I listened to lectures and read some books: nobody did anything but talk. I went to some protests: nobody did anything but talk. I made friends with a bum: I couldn't help him.

I realized I'm tiny. I want to do God's work with my little hands and then die quietly with children in the room.

Does that make me ideological? I don't care if you think so.

>>10321669
No? This part here is pure ideology
>When I was a Marxist I made nearly all my observations within a Marxist theoretical framework

Ah, to be 18 again and concerned with knowing the most about underground hip hop and obscure nigger-bop jazz to signal my uniqueness and tolerance of the monkeys my ancestors supposedly oppressed, before I accepted that none of it was even close to as good as the shit white people produce.

>>10321707
>applying /pol/ish logic to music and not just appreciating different artists from different genres to reinforce his pallet with many different flavours
>can only listen to music if the writer was "european"
>therefore admitting he doesn't listen to music, he just wants to be able to say he does

>>10321707

That's weird. I harbored suspicions that black people were intellectually inferior until I started listening to jazz and reading DuBois.

Isn't that sad? Bell Curve Theory has really fucked us all up. We can't see genius when it's right in front of us because it's made by black hands which, according to incontrovertible statistical and numerical '''''''evidence'''''', clearly does not exist.

This leads to the embarrassing phenomenon of white racists strongly suspecting that all forms of black genius are played up mediocrity.

>>10321293
>You can't read music or play an instrument, can you?
Certainly you can't, useless hipster. No dear, the ukulele does not count, and you cannot play it.

>>10321726
You only pretend to like this shit because you live in a culture where blacks are presented as cooler, more masculine, and more artistically creative than whites. But that's not actually true and all you're doing is status signaling according to the social perceptions outlined above. Because you're a fraud with no taste or awareness of why you behave the way you do. I don't fault you though, it's natural.

>>10321717
>>10321726
t. 19 year old /mu/tards
hope you'll graduate from your afrophile phase soon enough

>>10321743
>>10321749
>>10321743

get fukt

https://vocaroo.com/i/s1vfjtceRFbv

>>10321743

https://vocaroo.com/i/s128vu1WkmBJ

>>10321750
>assumptions
I listen to everything except country and rap, faggot.

>>10321743
I am half tempted to go and bust out a drum solo but you faggots are just going to say it's not a real instrument so fuck you .

>>10317435
>MUH CULTURAL MARXISM

Don't you guys ever get tired? If you knew the slightest thing about Adorno, Foucault etc.you would realize they were far from coordinating a concerted effort to undermine Western society. They contradicted themselves and the other cultural """"Marxists"""" constantly

>>10321848

Do it.

>>10321869
Not doing such a thing for the chans ever again, too embarrased desu.

>>10321852
That was literally the goal of Marxism and all other jewish intellectual movements from their inception, because that's how jews themselves think. They're a cult that's been told since the beginning of recorded time that the subhumans they're surrounded by, whom they're destined to rule over, have oppressed them and must be amaleked. This has produced a vengeful race of barbarians.

>>10318118
Literally all of that is dumb pop music, it doesn't matter how many nice words middle-brow NYT critics have written about it over the years.
>>10320833
>Few of the great Art composers were well trained enough at any instrument to be able to compose what they wanted at will without extensive rumination
This is not a good thing, hence there is more quality in only 8 bars of Mozart than there are in the entire ouevre of any jazz artist.

>>10321909
Why is it dumb pop music? What differentiates dumb pop music for plebs and actual good, deep music for superior human beings?

>>10321852
>If you knew the slightest
If you at least read the post you're replying to before furiously typing out your deep redditesque revelations in a stroke of autistic kneejerk you'd notice that it satirizes precisely the very thing you're complaining about.

>>10321909
>there is more quality in only 8 bars of Mozart than there are in the entire ouevre of any jazz artist.

Ok come on now man.... chill with the hyperbole

>>10321918
Structure, intent, directionality etc. Art music is a three-dimensional medium while popular music is inherently two-dimensional.

>>10321909
>there is more quality in only 8 bars of Mozart than there are in the entire ouevre of any jazz artist.
Prove it.

>>10321926
Both art and pop can have acceptable structure, intent and directionality. This is not enough to discern the two. You are recquired to post more differences.

>>10321931
But there is no intent or wider structure in jazz music, it's all monophonic and looping.
>>10321927
>>10321922
It's true, it is honestly like comparing Shakespeare to Harry Potter, you would see that if you knew as much about music as you do about literature.

>>10321942
>But there is no intent or wider structure in jazz music, it's all monophonic and looping.
Gonna need some proofs for those arbitary statements my tone deaf compatriot.
I wish I was as well versed in literature as I am in music.

>jazz isn't art musi---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9a9VWoyO4M

>>10321949
Jazz is more or less just dressed up slave songs, it is a repeated short-form piece with a "lead" (soloist) and accompaniment (harmony), free jazz in particular is guilty of this as contrary to popular belief, it was not at all an increase in complexity or an expansion of the language of jazz but a narrowing.

Now of course, I know you will post about Gunther Schuller or some other people that experimented with crossover (read: throwing in arbitrary 7th grade polyphony) and ignore the fact that 99.9% of all recorded jazz follow the above formula.

I can obliterate every single of your points by uttering the name of Sun-Ra.

>>10321963
how do you explain jazz musicians like Braxton, Lawrence Morris and George Russell who use classical notation and whose compositions are meditated through the channels of classical music, often employing classical ensembles

>>10321963
>source:my ass
>because they were slave songs (bitches brew is a slave song apparently) they aren't good
>because it's short form it isn't good
>except it's usually long form compositions that diferentiate between passages
>accompaniment of jazz focuses on harmony instead of rhyrthm
Entertaining.

>a reworked slave song that repeats harmonously
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dokLwszdUgY

>>10321942
>But there is no intent or wider structure in jazz music, it's all monophonic and looping.
(not true, by the way)

>>10321981
Outliers, but their ensemble writing is usually very very poor and they stick to block writing. Anthony Braxton as a far as I know only really makes interpretive scores or single (short) melodies, so I don't know if he's a particularly good example.
>>10321982
What I meant by the slave song comment is that it is humble, simple music dressed up and elevated beyond its stature. And no it is most definitely not a genre of long form pieces, lmao.

Also, the fact that the accompaniment "focuses on harmony instead of rhythm"(???) doesn't make the texture any less monophonic, this is literally composition 101, kid.

>it's autismos sincerely arguing with "pol intellectual" episode
Do you guys not know how to jerk off or something?

>>10321965
WE WUZ JAZZ

no thanks grandpa

>>10322004
>I don't believe that jazz is deserving of its currently elevated status nor that it should be considered a part of the tradition of western art music
>f-fuck off /pol/!
The absolute state...

>>10322003
Simple and humble begginings defined all the genres that ever existed, those humble begginings becoming something grander is the point. Classical began from lowly peasant songs as well, doesn't make it "pleb" and low form (like contemporaries thought on the genre).
> And no it is most definitely not a genre of long form pieces, lmao.
It actually is, lmao.
> this is literally composition 101
It literally isn't really.

>>10322014
>too pleb to understand Sun-Ra
>>10322017
>>f-fuck off /pol/!
Yes this is exactly what is happening, not one dude talking about shit he doesn't understand, with a clear agenda, calling everyone an ignoramous while not posting a single source about his baseless claims.
I guess that some people's egoes behave like dicks, they need to be striken once in a while, but you are actually thinking that you are having sex while you are merely masturbating.

can't imagine being such a bitter loser that appreciating quality jazz is an impossibility

>>10322019
>It actually is, lmao.
Then how come 99% of recorded material is A) bar form, B) ballad form, C) binary or ternary form or D) strophic form? These are ALL short forms.

And yes, texture actually is perhaps the most fundamental point of composition, read a book kid.

>>10322017
>implying you get labeled /pol/ for your actual position rather than for the quintessentially poltardian style of disingenuous non-argumentative sophistic discourse that amounts to little less than spouting unsubstantiated opinion spiced with clumsy namedropping to keep up the thin veil of supposed intellectual honesty

>>10322036
>A) bar form, B) ballad form, C) binary or ternary form or D) strophic form?
They aren't really, unless you want to specifically look out for those criteria.
>texture
>not rhythm
This is how I know you don't actually listen to music.
>implying almost all of classical isn't basic harmonious plebbery and bar-wankery
>there is almost no dissonance in classical classical
>only try hard majestic harmonious swellings with some riffs becoming "developed"
>this means that classical is an unworthy genre

saying jazz has never reached the status of art music due to humble beginnings or the ongoing presence of popular form with the medium is equivalent to maintaining that film never has been a serious medium because of Hollywood trash

>>10322045
I am literally the only person arguing from a musical perspective, everyone else are the ones making blatantly wrong statements about the structure of jazz music and engaging in name-dropping.

>>10322049
Or that classical is shit because Wagner is overwritten.

>>10322051
I don't see you proving any of your statements though and you were the first to call everyone an inferior human being for appreciating Jazz. When you come from foundations such as these you are automatically shit, sorry.
That's your arguement for jazz beingshit too, oh the irony.

>>10322048
>implying almost all of classical isn't basic harmonious plebbery and bar-wankery
>there is almost no dissonance in classical classical
This is just not true, this is where texture, directionality etc. comes in. Rhythm can also be interpreted as a part of musical texture, whether from a sonological perspective or structural-architectural.
>>10322049
Actually, it's more like claiming trash directors like Wes Anderson are high art.
>>10322065
You are in fact inferring things I never said. I don't care if you listen to jazz or not, just stop pretending it is or can ever be high art. And my statements about the musical form of jazz music should be readily apparent to anyone that has ever listened to or played jazz.

>implying classical is polyphnic
>implying classical isn't binary
>implying classical isn't the most traditional of all the genres
>implying classical doesn't have short form compositions
>implying classical doesn't have pop pieces
>implying classical didn't have debased themes (what is "lick me in the arse" by Mozart?)
>implying classical wasn't listened to by the degenerate elite

>>10322051
>arguing from a musical perspective
You're not. You're expressing completely unsubstantiated qualitative assessments on the basis of sweeping generalizations and sprinkle some babby's first semester in conservatory lingo. Plus of course "read a book".

>>10322077
>This is just not true
It really is though, m8.
>You are in fact inferring things I never said. I don't care if you listen to jazz or not, just stop pretending it is or can ever be high art. And my statements about the musical form of jazz music should be readily apparent to anyone that has ever listened to or played jazz.
You did. The rest of your sentence is literally not an arguement, you are repeating your belief as fact.

>>10322027
>too pleb to understand Sun-Ra

If only that were possible.

>>10322077
>my statements about the musical form of jazz music should be readily apparent to anyone that has ever listened to or played jazz
This kind of powerful argumentation is just unbeatable. Pack it up boys.

Why is every pseud obsessed with classical when it is mainly listened to by bored middle aged women?

>>10322091
You can get him if you try hard enough, I believe in you!

>>10322079
>classical is a genre
Begone, mental midget!

>>10322097
>why do you enjoy X if <group Y> enjoys X too?
Dddeeepp quuestchon, a-aynoon...

>>10322105
>jazz is a genre
whaaaa?!

>>10322112
>omg jazz is shit because it was made by niggers
hurfff

>>10322079
All true, still contains the apex of musical expression.
>>10322087
But I am, I am expressing what jazz lacks in comparison to classical, which is either/or, larger structures, directionality and intention. The fact is that they are dressed up folk songs, and they always return to center.
>>10322095
Well have you? Even when we get to the "experimental" era of jazz, the vast majority of it are songs, it just has more chord substitutions and maybe a slightly more complex harmonic rhythm.

>jazz lacks sophisticati---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKcfbaeMD-g

>>10322122
>the apex of musical expression.
The apex of musical expression is overwritten compositions with absolutely no subtlety with 50 instruments playing the same thing.

>>10322116
>literally nothing about jazz in your first post or my reply
>CONTRARIANISM!
>MAYMAYS!

>>10322130
>with 50 instruments playing the same thing
No, that is very much more of a jazz thing.

>>10322134
>said while he responded with a meme
>a shitty one, at that

>>10322136
>No, that is very much more of a jazz thing.
Big bands had 20 instruments at best, Rossini had at least 40 violins play the same thing in the barber of Sevilla.

>>10322138
>more contrarianism on unrelated tangential themes?
Try /pol/ or /tv/ maybe?

>>10322142
You first.

>>10322140
>Rossini had at least 40 violins play the same thing in the barber of Sevilla.
Well you see, that constitutes only two (2) voices, whereas block writing (i.e. every instrument plays the same thing) is more or less the defining feature of American music.

>>10322122
You were already given counterexamples. You called them "outliers", apparently considered that an argument and moved on to repeat your hurrdurr about "muh high art inaccessible for jazz". I'm willing to be you masturbate to Stockhausen, yet can't play a single instrument masterfully. Neck yourself. Done with this shit thread trying to educate a literaly fucking pseud.

>>10321888
You're mentally ill

Jews are not singularly minded

>>10322157
But Jazz doesn't have block writing as its main characteristic, especially free jazz.
>>10322157
>Well you see, that constitutes only two (2) voices
It's one voice though.

>>10322160
They are outliers.

Hell, a lot of jazz people would in fact not consider them jazz musicians at all, nor do they believe jazz should appropriate art music idioms or strive to be art. I believe this is a significantly more healthy attitude, as institutionalizing jazz have done the same for it as it did for folk music.

>>10322171
You are using your conclusion as evidence yet again, ts ts ts

>>10322168
Yes, they are.

>>10322188
Prove it

>>10322171
>I'm an enlightened intellect only arguing logically on the basis of music theory
>jazz lacks A, B, C and D and therefore cannot be high art
>here you go jazz with all aforementioned qualities
>but they are outliers
Kill yourself, imbecile.
>if we only denote works not using art music idioms as jazz, then jazz can't be art music!
Kill yourself painfully, worthless cockgobbling semantic sophist.

>>10322197
He has obviously left the thread the moment it hit bump limit and he is plotting how he will help them conquer /lit/ next.

>>10322191
This highly consanguinous Tribe isn't comprised of individuals.

>>10322216
This is what you constitute as proof? A more flowery wording?

>>10322217
The proof is in their actions. What do you expect here, a print out from my deluxe clannishness rating detector 4000?

>>10322102
Not to fear I've found actual good jazz musicians, but I'm rooting for you stretch!

>>10322264
You are inferring that every single Jew is the same while never having encountered one yourself.

>>10317971
>Spend decades voting against unions, education, regulations and public services
>Until one day when the only jobs left in your state are in a foxconn factory or similar because the market now drems your state useless for anything other than menial labor
>Big pharma decides to wring the region for what's left of it's money by pushing opoid painkillers
>No oversight or accountability because that would have killed jobs
>Hopeless population gets hooked on said painkillers
Yeah, sure sounds like the libs did this by being smug
Fuck you

>>10321539
This is what morons actually believe.
American music sucks. Deal with it.
>>10321614
You haven't made a single claim supporting jazz you fucking tool.
>actual statist
Fuck off, Nazi.

>>10321848
>>10321876
Because you aren't an actual musician. You're a middle class child.
>>10321965
Nope, he's the shite of shite.

>>10322130
>overwritten
literally 'forced animation'
Go back to watching men masturbate on stage in differing ways.

>>10317752
/pol/ is worst

>>10317330
he was more into vaporwave/shoegaze