/lit/ - Literature

>>10261923
Please fuck off

>>10261923

Link to Peterson's most in-depth arguments on postmodernism?

>>10261923
>He claims to be smart but he treats Jordan Peterson like an authority on Post-Modernism.

>>10261939
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyzSrtr6oJE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLoG9zBvvLQ
These are the big ones

Fuck off

>>10261950
Thanks.

>>10261953
It is a good thing that Peterson's a soulless money grubbing con-man; because, If he actually believed in the garbage he spews, He would make an effective cult leader.

>>10261953
ROFL this is gold! Hats off brother kekistani.

>>10261986
>soulless money grubbing con-man
"mum look at me! I posted it again!"

>>10261943
>Jordan Peterson doesn't know Post-Modernism because I read a pomo novel that one time
"mum look at me! I posted it again!"

>>10261953
top zoz

2 bit professor takes a highly visible stance on a controversial piece of legislation and then becomes a meme and surprise self help guru for NEETs

that is literally what he is

His arguments about postmodernism aren't any less informed that Chomsky's, yet the latter gets a pass because of his leftist political activism. Also, like Chomsky and his work on linguistics superseding his political shit, Peterson's political activism shouldn't discount some very interesting work on the psychological bases of myth.

>>10262017
None of that is to the detriment of Peterson. /lit/ hates his fans and they take that hatred out on Peterson himself

>>10261923
I don't dismiss Peterson, I dismiss his obnoxious fans

Is post modernism just a synonym for relativism? That seems to be how everyone uses it.

>>10262017
Nah he's the new Nietzsche according to reddit

>>10262024
not for relativism, exactly
But I would say that post-modernism and post-structuralism are synonymous.
A lot of people on /lit/ have a 'tism attack because they fail to realise that pomo philosophy and pomo literature are different things.

>>10262018
It shouldn't, no. If you seriously think Chomsky's career as a linguist hasn't suffered negatively from his political activism and extracurricular ""political philosophy"" then you're mistaken.

Peterson will suffer worse because the left has Academia and the North American right-wing is anti-intellectual and powerless to aid him. Chomsky can look dignified while selling his books because his audience is monied and attends the lectures. Peterson's audience are NEETs.

>>10262018

1. Can you fuck off with the postmodernism meme?
It's a word that is extremely context dependent and I'm getting sick of seeing people make bold statements about the spooky, always-unnamed "postmodernists." If you do not have a strong sense of "modern" (and pre-modern for that matter) and a strong sense of where modernism ends and postmodernism begins, you should not use the word at all!

2. Chomsky does not write about "postmodernism." Chomsky is not a theoretician and he's not much of a philosopher. He does not usually engage the issues Peterson brings up. For the most part he is a foreign policy critic.

>>10262024
Postmodernism has almost no meaning except contextually. I hear it used interchangeably with "self-referential" as much as "post-structuralist"

>>10261923
>/lit/ spams an author everyday

Yeah, you can save yourself some time and just assume they're not worth your time

Only 5% of the people that post here have anything of value to say

>>10262034
Peterson isn't as Right as some of his detractors think he is. He's concerned about income inequality and spends half of his lectures talking about the atrocities committed by the far Right.

>and the North American right-wing is anti-intellectual
The right-wing's abandonment of the humanities in favor of a scientific and material conception of the world is part of the reason Peterson is so popular. He fills a gap in the sphere of public intellectuals.

>>10262022

I hate people who watch 5 Youtubes and suddenly think they're equipped to engage a discussion on "postmodernism" or to namedrop Carl Jung in a 4chan thread or at a party.

It's embarrassing and stupid. Read a fucking book and stop watching Joe Rogan.

I guess it's annoying because I've been on my little truth-quest for four years or so, I've probably read about 100 books on various humanities topics (which is not a lot but is a hell of a lot more than most people). Because I'm intellectually honest I recognize that I know very little compared to serious thinkers on these topics or even typical academics. Because I'm intellectually honest I keep going, keep asking questions, and try to keep learning. I get nervous if I mention an author in conversation that I haven't read at least 1 book by.

And you fucking internet memesters watch your Jordan Peterson videos, your Sargon of Akkad videos, your Joe Rogan, hell, your Noam Chomsky (if you're not going to go read him ever!), and suddenly you go around talking about Freud or Cultural Marxism or Capitalism or whatever.

It's so fucking dishonest. This isn't a game. Truth is out there and it takes a lot of work to get to. I take it seriously. Anyone who does is vaguely annoyed by someone like Jordan Peterson, and especially his fans.

>>10262066
I only needed to watch 10 minutes of his talk on youtube to know that postcuckernism was BTFO

>>10262037
>>10262039
if the intended audience have a group conceptualised understanding of what is meant by "postmodernist", then what exactly is the issue?
If you and I were brothers, and I said to you "Is mum washing the car?", we would both have an understanding of who "mum" is, and which "car" is being spoken of. If someone who doesn't know us was to overhear this exchange, they could probably figure out the mum part, but they may fail to visualise what type of car is being spoken of.

Not sure if I'm making sense, but what I'm trying to get at is, clearly the intended/engaged audience have an understanding of what is being spoken of, so it may seem odd to us, but the fact that JBP continues the way he does with his popularity, there must be some coherence to it.

>>10262072

Please explain the difference between:

1. premodern
2. modern
3. postmodern

according to Peterson. Then give me 3 examples of "postmodernists." If you can't do that right now without scratching your head, then that's the problem with you using the word.

>>10261923
I probably agree with him on most politics, but why wouldn't you read something you disagree with? I've learned a lot from reading Marxists, Former Trotskyites and people who I don't agree with ideologically. If you don't read the criticisms of your beliefs you will become intellectually lazy and will just end up an idiot like Ben Shapiro, spouting about commies and nazis and whatnot while somebody runs roughshed on your beliefs.

>>10262077
>according to Peterson
no clue how he defines it seeming:
1) I'm not Peterson
2) I'm not a Peterson fan

From what I've seen of his lectures, and from others I've seen use that term, I gather that perhaps they're not referring to a time period like you're implying. Mostly they seem concerned with cultural relativism and critical theory.
It strikes me as very odd that you're so intent on trying to shoot them down rather than trying to understand them.
I don't follow what he or his followers say, but I don't get upset on a Polynesian workers union image board just because someone thinks a certain way.

Does he still cry when he gets associated with the alt-right?

>>10262066
Yet you seem like the perfect example of how someone can read 100 j-left humanities books and end up not only clueless, but prone to write posts that are nothing more than cringe virtue-signaling rants about the importance of truths you don't even appear close to comprehending.

>>10262100
Phrases like "virtue signaling" are merely attempts to duck frank conversations about ethics, tbqh

>>10262093

Garbage post, you don't even know why you're arguing, get out of this thread

(obviously words which are context dependent can be used in contexts where their context is well understood. That is fucking obvious. Do you think "the internet" is a context wherein we may use the term "postmodernism" without having to explain our particular understanding of the term because everyone will automatically know we are referring to Jordan Peterson's postmodernism?)

Already your mind is searching for a retort because you consider me an adversary and you consider yourself correct.

>>10262103
You're a cuck, kid

>>10262103
"Virtue-signaling" perfectly sums up the pop-ethics of leftism.

>>10262100

The only opinions I've stated so far are:

1. I'm not a fan of Jordan Peterson because he doesn't get people to think, he gets them to stop thinking

2. people should read more

You know nothing about the 100 books. My main area of interest is religion. Is this how you think? "He's not a Jordan Peterson fan. He must be some kind of libtard!"

What is the point of thinking like that? I don't get it.

Jordan Peterson is a spook and doesn't real

>he isn't a cuckold

>>10262110
/lit/: The post
How can you possibly be this upset about someone telling you that perhaps trying to understand others is beneficial in the pursuit of knowledge.
No one here is JBP, why not email him to ask for his understanding of the term.
You're upset that someone else itc has used the word, and now you attack anyone who can't give JBP's definition and internal thoughts.
Once you email him, screencap the response and post it here if you're so interested

>>10262066
People not putting in the work is a human universal. You have to be empathetic and socially competent enough to tell people that they don't know what the fuck they're talking about without coming across as an autistic asshole. Instead of hating these dilettantes, engage them and recommend books for them to read. Peterson himself gets normies reading Dostoevsky and Solzhenitsyn in ways that their college professors were never able to.

>>10261986
broke: bolshevism
woke: millenarian cult of kids who never had real dads led by jordan peterson

Would you let the Jordan P in your GF's V?

>>10262116
This, good poster in this thread, read more before you talk shit. I used to blame cultural Marxism and the Frankfurt School after watching a couple Bill Whittle videos, but after picking up a book by a "Marxist" I changed my mind pretty quick and was emberassed that I'd argued about stuff I didn't understand.

>>10262159
>t. namefag who's never actually seen discussing literature despite his continued presence here.

>>10262201
Congrats, you're a retard for ever buying that shit

>>10262201
>I changed my mind pretty quick and was emberassed that I'd argued about stuff I didn't understand and still don't understand.
Ftfy

>>10262203
If you bring up Nabokov, Shakespeare, or Keats, i'm in the thread. The problem is that most the lit you creeps discuss isn't as interesting as the sociological or philosophical questions you guys bring up

>>10261953
>that kekistani comment
Jesus christ mang. That is some of the cringiest shit I've ever seen. I knew /pol/ got invaded by normies but this is something else.

>>10262219
>you're a retard for reading for the sake of educating yourself
literally the absolute state of /lit/

>>10262008
Maybe it's not that one poster is posting it over and over again, but that multiple posters are posting it because it's just obviously true

>>10262138
When said others are already abusing the term that everyone else agreed upon to be something else

>>10262227
Learn to recognize jewish false flaggers, there's quite a bit these days.

My room smells like cum and gay anal sex, lol

>>10262219
>>10262222
You guys think I am a Marxist now? Not really, but I understand Marxist criticisms of Capitalism better. I disagree with Capitalism on religious grounds, regardless. I'm Catholic

Either way you both sound anti-intellectual and ought to do more reading before posting. Jaques Ellul and James Burnham are good places to start. The Managerial Revolution is a great book for getting a quick overview on Capitalism and "bourgeoisie" ideologies that arose to support it. Amd the current transition from Capitalism to Managerialism and the ideologies that will support it.

>>10262251
>Anyone on my side that looks stupid is a Jewish falseflag!

>>10261923

Jordan Peterson fundamentally misunderstands the meaning of the word "postmodern"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya-kIBby-cM

>>10262283
The problem is that so much falls under the purview of postmodernism that you can't really use the term to describe one particular mode of thinking.

https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/6n6rhg/why_are_jordan_petersons_philosophical_opinions/#dk9agi6
I saw this linked in another board and found it interesting, thoughts?

>>10262306

the universal trait of postmodern falls under critical theory, Jürgen Habermas and his scholars like Rick Roderick are examplex of someone who was a critical theorist and student of the Frankfurt school, but who was not necessarily Marxist (and not Jewish, for you dumb /pol/tards)

the problem with Peterson is that he throws all these critiques out the window, and in doing so fails to address world-shaking circumstances like the omniscient military industrial complex, AI, ocean acidifcation, insect die-off, corporate-government conglomerates, and international finance, and no, doing push ups, going to church, and keeping your room clean is not going to solve these problems

>>10262219
Fuck off, he's trying to educate himself.
And they say 4chan isn't a echo chamber.

>>10262201
Curious, what were your misconceptions and how did they get cleared up?

>>10262077
One is before modern, one is modern, and one is after modern.

>>10262324
>and no, doing push ups, going to church, and keeping your room clean is not going to solve these problems
Peterson's contention, which is an interesting one, is that those planet-defining problems can't be dealt with by a person whose immediate vicinity is in shambles because those people are subject to the sort of ideological possession that their failure and insecurity makes them vulnerable to.

>>10261923
Except I have seen his lectures and he's pants on head retarded.

>>10262077

>premodern
the building up of pre-modern civilization: the development of human life from apes, then early agriculture, ending with the industrial revolution, hunter-gatherer and feudal (agrarian) economy, medieval politics

>modern
period leading up to the peak of the industrial revolution and two World Wars where massive technological infrastructure was established, capitalist manufacturing economy, mercantile politics

>postmodern
after World War II to Now, where the infrastructure built up during and after the world wars, radios, telephones, highways, internet, globalism, robots, now dominates our lives at an ever increasing rate, techno-economy and cyber-globalist politics

>Then give me 3 examples of "postmodernists.
Jurgen Habermas
Rick Roderick
Michel Foucault

>>10262376
and a critical theoretic contention, would be that people aren't very motivated to get their shit together if there isn't a larger plan to fix the bigger issues, especially when the guy telling you to do is is acting like a self-help guru from the 80s

>>10262376
Person who's been in therapy since 4th grade here (I can only hope you don't think im LARPing). I've done the whole cleaning your room thing and have seen other people around me that are also in therapy do it. It's more of a personal coping mechanism than a long term solution, my room might be squeaky clean but i still don't know how to deal with heartbreak. I like that JP is getting people to also learn to cope with things but he really should keep his nose out of political problems as he can only give advise from the mind of a psychologist.

>>10262401
>he really should keep his nose out of political problems as he can only give advise from the mind of a psychologist.

problems like the environment, Artificial Intelligence, pollution, healthcare, and the military industrial complex have gone beyond the 'political', they are now /a matter of life and death/, and remaining silent on them in any extent is foolish

>>10262399

nice meme

>>10262407
Right, the problem here is that he's not giving good advise.

>>10262399
A major problem is that so many of the people protesting this shit are women who are 21 and under. Most of these people haven't had a real job, have only ever been in school, and haven't educated themselves on the particularities of the issue they're concerned with. Seeing a 19 year old white female communist (which is a real thing) talk about the structure of our economic system as if they've been studying it for decades is infuriating. It's that type of presumption that Peterson argues against.

>>10262401
I don't think that he suggests that cleaning your room is going to fix your life. That's more of a meme than am actual prescription.

>>10261950
Just watched the second video. Recommended. Don't listen to people who say Peterson doesn't know what he's talking about vis-a-vis postmodernism, he's spot on ... almost. His diagnoses are correct but what he's leaving out, and for understandable reasons I don't fault him for, is that the social agitation and inverted power dynamics he's describing, moving from Marx to Derrida to the present day, were and are jewish-led, dominated, and systematized ideologies and programs. This is why they feature white men as the collective enemy of the various victim groups, of which jews earn top spot. And the results reflect their fears, desires, and the devious strategies they use to obtain power and then depoliticize or attack the opposing male tribe they feel most threatened by. It's really not that complicated, either. I also have a hard time believing Peterson doesn't know this, especially since he goes out of his way to mention the murderous brutality jewish bolsheviks unleashed on the Russians. Worth a watch for those interested in understanding how postmodernism works.

>>10262419
you are completely correct in that the Jordan Peterson's appeal is that of a father figure to a confused or agitated youth, as an alternative culture against SJWs

my answer to the problem of hysterical SJWer is that more sympathy and understanding of the problems is needed on part of more conservative folks, my girlfriend right now has multiple friends in a poor part of my country who got pregnant and because Catholic fundamentalism they don't have access to contraception, birth control, or abortions: now they may have children that they will not fully love with boyfriends who are abusive, their lives are ruined and taxpayers are going to foot the bill, and the vicious cycle may continue with those children, this is not something that the "bootstraps" and return to Tradition philosophy of Petersonites will solve, and in some ways makes worse

>>10262442
Russia was viciously anti-semitic and traditionalist during the Tsardom, and yet it got overthrown by this "postmodernist conspiracy" you and other Petersonites espouse, what makes you think your system will be just as immune? how do you plan on fighting against globalist-funded, AI-fueled "postmodernism"?

>>10262440
>Don't listen to people who say Peterson doesn't know what he's talking about vis-a-vis postmodernism, he's spot on
Wow, okay not many people bite on that point. Let's see what kind of justification this anon has laid out
>the social agitation and inverted power dynamics he's describing, moving from Marx to Derrida to the present day, were and are jewish-led,
aannnnnd disregarded. At least you cucks are easy to spot. Have fun with that pathology of yours.

>>10262442
I don't see how the contraception issue relates to Peterson, or even the right wing at large. Female contraception is extremely cheap, and the Republican party has tried to increase its availability by making it over-the-counter, to the consternation of Democrats, who want it to be prescribed in order to get more women to support universal healthcare. This problem isn't a result of right-wing religious fundamentalism, but of both left and right wing political opportunism.

>>10262445
>Russia was viciously anti-semitic and traditionalist during the Tsardom
Russia during that time had the most progressive policies toward jews of any nation in Europe. But even saying you're right, any skeptical person should ask why people didn't like jews and not immediately assume it was because people were bigoted and evil, but ask what jews did to earn such reactions.

>>10262460
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishinev_pogrom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Russian_Empire

"A hardening of official attitudes under Tsar Alexander III and his ministers, resulted in the May Laws of 1882 which severely restricted the civil rights of Jews within the Russian Empire. The Tsar's minister Konstantin Petrovich Pobedonostsev stated the aim of the government with regard to the Jews was that "One third will die out, one third will leave the country and one third will be completely dissolved in the surrounding population".[13] In the event, the pogroms and the repressive legislation did indeed result in the mass emigration of Jews to western Europe and America. Between 1881 and the outbreak of the First World War, an estimated 2.5 million Jews left Russia - one of the largest group migrations in recorded history."

Jews aside for the moment, seriously how do you plan on fighting AI-fueled globalist-postmodernists when your predecessors couldn't even do it when Traditionalist Christianity was the majority?

>>10262390

That is the most bland, stupid, non-definition I've seen.

You're telling me the term postmodern refers to an era that differs from the rest of history by a matter of degree?

Were we postmodern right after the war but modern in July 1945?

I don't think Peterson (or anybody for that matter) uses the term this way, to refer to a stage of history characterized by a higher degree of technology. It's almost always used to refer to a specific development in idealism, typically synonymous with moral relativism or certain chunks of late 20th century philosophy (especially in France).

I don't understand how you can even have a "postmodern thinker" given your ridiculous definition. Is a postmodern thinker a thinker born after the development of interstate highways, radio etc?

I'm aware Habermas and Foucault did their major work in the postwar period. Is this why you have described them as "postmodernist" ?

>>10262370

I'm glad you notice that an understanding of "postmodern" relies on a thorough understanding of "modern", a word which, despite your jest, is by no means obvious (though it's often used as a synonym for "contemporary").

>>10262470
THIS IS THE HETERODOX DEFINITION OF POSTMODERNISM IN PHILOSOPHY LITERATURE

yes, Habermas is one of the famous students of the Frankfurt School of postmodern critical theory, no he isn't a marxist, no he isn't Jewish, now go read him

this is a playlist from Habermas scholar and analyst of postmodernity Rick Roderick (no he's not Jewish, he's a Texan Christian)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjFiU9nDQD4&list=PLA20B690583E9931C

>>10262468
The Russians gave jews the Pale of Settlement in Ukraine and the jews in return overthrew the state then starved ten million of the native Ukrainians to death in the Holodomor.

I don't know why you think I think Christianity is, was, or ever would be a useful tool to bring about what people like myself want, since it was perhaps the detrimental tool, imposed or not, of all.

>>10262485
*sorry Orthodox definition not Heterodox

>self-help yootooobers with lucrative patreon accounts

>>10262487
>the holodomor was a Jewish plot

>I don't know why you think I think Christianity is, was, or ever would be a useful tool to bring about what people like myself want, since it was perhaps the detrimental tool, imposed or not, of all.

let me guess, your plan against AI-fueled postmodern marxism involves "Meme Magic"

>>10262485

1. From Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:


"That postmodernism is indefinable is a truism. However, it can be described as a set of critical, strategic and rhetorical practices employing concepts such as difference, repetition, the trace, the simulacrum, and hyperreality to destabilize other concepts such as presence, identity, historical progress, epistemic certainty, and the univocity of meaning."


The phrase "orthodox definition of postmodernism" is in itself shocking. It would be a brilliant irony if you weren't such an idiot.

2. I've come across Habermas only tangentially as a secular advocate of a certain kind of inter-religious dialogue. He apparently suggested that interfaith can only occur in a secular space, free from the bonds of insurmountable disagreements and improvable assertions, and encouraged by the common pursuit of healthy democracy. This is all I know about Habermas, in addition to his association with something called the Frankfurt School, which association can be read from his Wikipedia page or Youtube, and which furthermore has caused him to be oddly associated with a certain right ring conspiracy theory regarding "cultural Marxism" that originated in the works of the rather unhinged Lyndon LaRouche and found a popular audience in the advocacy of Pat Buchanan.

I find it odd you've omitted Foucault from your second post. I do not find it odd that you avoided answering the question "how can a thinker even be classified as postmodern given your definition?". That's because it's a good question and you know it, and you know you have no answer for it.

>>10262495
Most if not all of the elements involved in your fictional noun string totalitarian monster adversary are already in decline. But no, more like Jewish Expulsion Order #360.

>>10262509
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/postmodern

"Of, relating to, or having the characteristics of postmodernism, especially as represented in art, architecture, literature, science, or philosophy that reacts against an earlier modernism."

The Two World Wars were the utter failure of Modernism, it's why Picasso drew Guernica, it's why French theorists tried to reframe everything entirely, it's why Germans switched from drawing cottages to Expressionism, developed critical theory, it's why Americans went from realist painting to abstract art

>>10262511
>Jewish Expulsion Order #360

56% bruh

>>10262520

I don't see why any of this post is at all relevant to anything. It seems to be here because you felt the need to respond but didn't have an argument.

If you want me to explain why your Wikipedia definition is stupid and less useful than the "definition" I offered above, I can do that. I don't think you would even care though.

I like your analysis of the emergence of modern art. I agree that the horrors of industrial warfare (which caused civilians to take the majority of casualties for the first time in history) caused artists to abandon more traditional forms in favor of shocking, horrifying outbursts that cried out against the alienation of the wars. (Notice I say industrial and not modern. This is because I'm referring to a technological (materialist) development and not an ideological (idealist) development. I would not hesitate to say Marxism (or Capitalism) is a "modern" ideology, for another example.

Be careful not to confuse words as they are used in art history with words as they are used in philosophy/elsewhere.

modern and post modern have fairly simple definitions in, for example, architecture, but these developments have essentially nothing to do with their uses in a philosophical context. As has been pointed out many times, postmodernism describes a shift in how humans think, conceive, critique, behave etc. It does not refer to a chronological period characterized by material developments. I've never seen it used that way by anyone.

>>10262542
>postmodernism describes a shift in how humans think, conceive, critique, behave etc.
>It does not refer to a chronological period characterized by material developments.

that shift happened over a very clear timeline, it is no mistake that the most famous postmodernists (Derrida, Foucault, Lacan, Habermas) were post-war thinkers

>>10262544

I was kind of afraid you would say something along those lines. Do you really want to get into the relationship between materialism and idealism?

That question forms a major theme of discourse for European philosophy since Descartes. It has antecedents in ancient philosophy as well. Marx for example, assumed that all ideas were outgrowths of material phenomena. This is why he thought modes of production produced distinct episodes in the history of man's thought. Hegel described a dialectic between material and spirit (about which I profess to know nothing). Kant has been called an idealist and I think he may perhaps represent the opposite of Marx in this matter but I'm not sure.

But many philosophers have noticed the interplay between thought and material in history (more broadly/metaphysically, the interplay between object and subject). It is a somewhat timeless debate.

Most would agree that the two have some kind of ability to influence each other.

>>10262542
>As has been pointed out many times, postmodernism describes a shift in how humans think, conceive, critique, behave etc. It does not refer to a chronological period characterized by material developments. I've never seen it used that way by anyone.

almost all historical analyses of postmodern thought or postmodern thinkers frame it within a time period and material developments, Joyce (the textbook "postmodern author") explicitly noted his works were influenced by the development of mass information culture, printed books, newspapers, and his favorite: film

postmodernism didn't crawl out of the void, it has clear chronological and material roots

>>10262544

Also please answer this:

"how can a thinker even be classified as postmodern given your definition?"

Put another way, what do the IDEAS of Foucault, Lacan, Habermas etc. have in common?

>>10262562

Please see
>>10262558

and also note

"
Be careful not to confuse words as they are used in art history with words as they are used in philosophy/elsewhere. "

Also note that Joyce is typically labeled a "modernist" but I don't care to get into that. I'm just pointing out that modernism in literature contexts refers to developments in style, theme, aesthetics, prose-writing etc. and does not necessarily or usually overlap with modernism in the history of ideas.

>>10262565
they are reactions to or meta-analysis of modernism

modernism being the embodied (and according to postmodern analysts, flawed) "instrumental reason" of people /and systems/ developed with the enlightenment and its fallout

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_and_value_rationality

Operations Research is the ultimate Modern science, which is why "Gravity's Rainbow", a very postmodern novel, is satirizes and explores the subject as part of the plot so much

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_research#Second_World_War

>>10262575
>>10262562
I'm simply not buying your "people use the art definition and philosophy definition non-interchangably", they do use it and part of many analysts of postmodernity like Derrida, Habermas, McLuhan, and Baudrillard rely heavily on using art and culture to discuss their ideas

>>10262584

Damn dude, chillll with the Wikipedia. This is not how you learn. Not my main point but this is nothing like scholarship. Scholarship has to be an ideal you take seriously if you're ever going to get anywhere learning about topics like these.

What you offer here is at least much closer to a reasonable definition than what you offered above, if shamelessly ripped from Wikipedia for the sake of arguing on the internet.

I happen to have studied Operations Research. It focuses mainly on optimization algorithms like the Simplex method. Its methods are typically algebraic and can be done with pre-calculus mathematics. Its earliest theorists worked for the early Soviet government if I'm not mistaken. It has nothing to do with this conversation whatsoever. Labeling it the "ultimate modern science" is completely absurd. It is not a science, it does not represent an apex or ultimate moment in the history of mathematics. It's not even quite what we would call "modern mathematics."

>>10262542
>I agree that the horrors of industrial warfare (which caused civilians to take the majority of casualties for the first time in history) caused artists to abandon more traditional forms in favor of shocking, horrifying outbursts that cried out against the alienation of the wars.

This is false btw. Referring to the other guy's post, Picasso's cubism and German Expressionism predate WW1. Americans turned to abstraction to lead the way of art away from the European model after returning victorious from the war rather than in reaction to its horrors.

are these the new Sam Harris threads ?

>>10262612
>>10262612

Yes yes, Les Demoiselles d'Avignon and Munch, we know. But you just had to come in here and tell us you found an error, yes? The wars had no impact on the internally contained development of art? Of course they did. Stop nit-picking!

Why do you guys feel the need to comment on things that you know nothing about?

>>10262619

Interestingly enough I dislike them for basically the exact same reasons.

>>10262611
>Scholarship has to be an ideal you take seriously if you're ever going to get anywhere learning about topics like these.

I'm posting these for thread lurkers's sake, not yours or mine, it's a good starting point for people who don't like looking things up just to understand a conversation

>Labeling it the "ultimate modern science" is completely absurd.

I guess since we can't agree on what modernism is about, then I guess we won't be able to come to any sane definition of postmodernism, which I guess congrats you've killed that conversation then, what would /your/ definition of postmodernism?

btw Operations Research is fucking /cool/

>It focuses mainly on optimization algorithms like the Simplex method. Its methods are typically algebraic and can be done with pre-calculus mathematics.

yeah but the heavier stuff gets into simulation, which you can take as far into whatever details as you can get, I have a book from the 70s on it, I'm interested in writing expert systems for it

>>10262611
>if shamelessly ripped from Wikipedia for the sake of arguing on the internet.

yeah I totally just Wikipedia'd "essence of modernism" and got that link, seriously dude?

>>10262620
>The wars had no impact on the internally contained development of art?

No of course not, since the 'return to order' had artists readopting classicist and traditionalist themes following WW1...

Why is /lit/ so packed with people that are always convinced that they're smarter than everyone?
We're all the exact same autist here. We were all that one kid in school that was slightly above in intelligence, probably didn't study too hard or appreciate our time there, but nonetheless enjoy reading outside of school/uni/college
Stop trying to stroke your own knowledgedick about how much smarter you are than other anons here and just talk like normal people

>>10262611
>Its earliest theorists worked for the early Soviet government if I'm not mistaken. It has nothing to do with this conversation whatsoever.

As if the failure of Stalinism isn't a key point of the postmodernists thereby making Stalinism modern and thus Operations Research modern as well.

>>10262646
if your definition of postmodernist is interchangable with "marxist" you're wasting keystrokes bruh

>>10262651
Marxism is modernist.

>>10262611
>I happen to have studied Operations Research. It focuses mainly on optimization algorithms like the Simplex method. Its methods are typically algebraic and can be done with pre-calculus mathematics. Its earliest theorists worked for the early Soviet government if I'm not mistaken. It has nothing to do with this conversation whatsoever. Labeling it the "ultimate modern science" is completely absurd. It is not a science, it does not represent an apex or ultimate moment in the history of mathematics. It's not even quite what we would call "modern mathematics."
Bud you need to quit talking

get back to your intro to cs course

>>10262611
>It has nothing to do with this conversation whatsoever

>I'm gonna split hairs on some of the most relevant developments in civilization in relation to the other most relevant developments in civilization, look now they're not related

all shit-slinging aside these threads are slowly going SOMEWHERE

>>10262659

>Bud you need to quit talking

I don't feel like this conversation is useful to either of us anymore so I shall do just that. Goodnight.

>>10262688
Even Peterson is getting a clue.

>>10262690
Hell yeah I got included in the screenshot

>>10262251
fuck you, /pol/ has always been a containment for aspies

>>10262690
MODERNIST BTFO

>>10262350
It's okay to be black or female

>>10262708
the rise of white nationalism is a reaction to replacement by AI and its operators of any kind, a slow understanding that in the end there is no longer anything that differentiates you from women or minorities any more

>>10262018
The reason Chomsky hates postmodernism is very different from the reasons Memerson hates it. Chomsky hates postmodernism because people use a lot of postmodern thought as an excuse to not be socially and politically active and help the masses. Chomsky's assertion of negative impact of postmodernism on academia and intellectuals is very correct. Memerson hates it because it gave rise to feminism and identity politics.

>>10262857
>Chomsky's assertion of negative impact of postmodernism on academia and intellectuals is very correct.
Partly correct. Indeed, the "New Left" abandoned feasible economic and political division in favor of identity politics rhetorics. But there were also highly political, Marxist even, postmodernists, like Foucault. Foucault used postmodern thought to argue against power structures, his thought is highly political.

>Memerson hates it because it gave rise to feminism and identity politics.

I would say that postmodernism gave feminism and left-wing identity politics new arguments. Its false to claim that postmodernism started them. Martin Luther King preached human rights, Christianity and "universal values", not postmodern thought, for example.

>>10262857
>postmodernism gave rise to feminism
>>10262562
>Joyce (the textbook "postmodern author")
You people are truly divorced from reason.

>>10262630
>Operations Research is fucking /cool/
It's not. The only subdiscipline that's arguably more boring is numerical methods.
>writing expert systems for it
CS brainlets were a mistake.

>>10262643
>board used by both 15 year old poltards and 20 something year old doctoral students
>hurr durr stop it guys we're all underachieveing brainlets just like me really

Yeah, I know. Too bad /lit/ is already infested by Jewish postmodernists, nothing JP says or does will change their feeble little minds.

>>10262947
>implying the white nationalists who post here aren't doctoral students.

>>10262954
(((jordan peterson))) is the actual jew, turning people away from western thought and into jewish (((mythology)))

>>10262708
It's okay to be white

>>10262032
>But I would say that post-modernism and post-structuralism are synonymous.
Only in specific contexts. Besides, the average /pol/tard doesn't know what post-structuralism is.

>>10262419
>A major problem is that so many of the people protesting this shit are women who are 21 and under.
[citation needed]

>>10263027
Yeah, and the jews and leftists giving their ten different definitions of postmodernism in every Peterson thread are the ones who get it.

>>10263049
>the jews and leftists giving their ten different definitions of postmodernism in every Peterson thread are the ones who get it.
Yes.

>>10261923

Dismissing youtube videos from meme public intellectuals is a necessary condition for being smart.

>>10263067
It's a consequence, not a prerequisite.

>>10261950
>>10262440
complete garbage tier sources, that video, "explaining postmodernism' is just like peterson's videos. Lacks sources and citations, poorly researched, filled with BS. Read the actual postmodern books yourself instead of having someone spoonfeed them to you, you lazy pseuds. How is it that a board about reading doesn't actually fucking read anything?

>>10261923
>be Jordan Memerson
>want to make a lot of $$$ and gain notoriety quickly
>perform the brave, heroic act of refusing to use someone's gender pronouns
>get worshiped as a hero by autists on the internet for whining about a letter he received from the school's faculty
>never receive any actual death threats, never have his life threatened, never actually get censored, never get imprisoned, never even get fired from his job
>simply whining about gender pronouns and being a professor of psychology is enough to be labelled a martyr for free speech by gullible anti-SJWs on the internet who desperately want an authority figure to affirm their whining
>whine about postmodernism and the cultural marxist boogeyman, even though postmodernism is a massive, broad subject never cite any actual literature or works or books by postmodernist authors or the Frankfurts, just say "they're all dumb guys trust me" like a true academic while occasionally namedropping Foucault or Derrida without actually addressing any of their arguments
>give the anti-SJWs you conned an imaginary enemy to blame all their problems on, while posing yourself as a hero when you've done jack shit and ironically whine about virtue signalling in academia while proposing no actual solutions to the postmodernist boogeyman
>fearmonger about a Canadian bill that you didn't even bother reading that was just a slight modification of a previous human rights bill that has already been in effect for decades, only it added "gender identity" to the list of criteria that you can't discriminate someone for and doesn't even affect universities because it only has federal jurisdiction
>virtue signal about how you would go on a hunger strike if you were arrested because of this bill, even though to this day no one has been arrested because of it and there isn't a single shred of evidence in the legislation or court records suggesting that would happen
>claim that a disgruntled twitter employee deleting trump's account is treason, then delete your tweet when everyone calls you out
>make 65k US dollars a month on Patreon from gullible morons who think you're brilliant for making glorified vlogs that spout Jungian purple prose, whine about children's movies being feminist propaganda and make vague, whiny criticisms of postmodernism that isn't backed by any actual evidence
Ah yes we have a true """intellectual""" on our hands.

>>10263147
>make 65k US dollars a month on Patreon

Holy shit. No wonder this guy rejects Marxism.

>>10263185
Every tenured professor at UT earns a exceptionally good salary though

>>10263185

Probably because he has a functioning brain.

>>10261923
>Passive-aggressive condescension over a perceived threat.
>Implies refusing exposure to JP's lectures or book is any indication of a lack of intelligence.
>Being this gay.

tfw OP is a shill for an author.

>>10263223
He's a skilled sophist, so yeah, he does have a functioning brain. Can't say the same for his brainlet supporters though.

>>10263217
So he earns around a million a year for preaching self-help banalities. Not bad.

>>10262320
I'm utterly confused, I know next to nothing about Peterson, but I do know Political Science which Peterson has a degree in and its a literal requirement to study Marxist and they're claiming he hasn't studied or read anything Marx wrote? reads like the bullshit freshers spout.

>>10262933
>Partly correct. Indeed, the "New Left" abandoned feasible economic and political division in favor of identity politics rhetorics. But there were also highly political, Marxist even, postmodernists, like Foucault. Foucault used postmodern thought to argue against power structures, his thought is highly political.
Chomsky isn't really against Foucault's critique of power structure or identity politics, he just hates how people use relativism and lack of objectivity as a way out of social and political activism.
>I would say that postmodernism gave feminism and left-wing identity politics new arguments. Its false to claim that postmodernism started them. Martin Luther King preached human rights, Christianity and "universal values", not postmodern thought, for example.
I don't believe that though, that's Memerson's argument. The fight for equality and rights of minority and women have deeper roots, this is what people who meme about cultural marxism like Peterson don't understand.
>>10262934
>>postmodernism gave rise to feminism
I don't think that, Peterson does.

>>10262320
>reddit
But yes it's true. He has nothing relevant to say about postmodernism. All he does is a bullshit tactic of addressing it as a vague, mysterious, EVIL force of BAD FEELINGS. Note how he never actually cites any sources or books from postmodernists or goes into specifics, that should be a red flag for anyone who doesn't have an IQ below 70.

>>10263254
The anti-Peterson posters are mostly jews who are angry he's exposing their intellectual scam and want to smear him. Saying that as not a big Peterson guy myself either.

>>10263273
>intellectual scam
>while making 65k a month on patreon for saying nothing but vague platitudes about le postmodernist boogeyman
t. Jordan Peterson

>>10263273
Please stop.

>>10263254
>2x2=5
>no it isn't
>of course it is, I studied math stupid freshers

>>10263254
>Peterson has a degree in
he has a degree in psychology

>>10263273
It's kinda like the reaction Nick Land causes, academic philosophers tend to get really fucking upset some crackhead internet philosopher gets tens of thousands of views on a poorly maintained blog and has to constantly reprint his books while their papers get 4 views and 0 citations.

>>10263292
>when Ramsay or Blumenthal criticize McDonalds it's because they're jelly

>>10261923
>he claims to be smart but dismisses dog feces without even trying a dogshit sandwich

>>10263302
But Ramsay or Blumenthal are the restaurant equivalent to Butler and Macintyre not replaceable Adjunct #900.

>>10263292
And as has been noted many times, most notably by Hitler, jews repeat the same arguments over and over so it's always the same:
>muh patreon
>muh doesn't understand post-modernism
>muh equates post-modernism with marxism
And jews have no self-awareness so they just keep hammering it. Really annoying.

>>10263317
>b-but I just meant the bad kind of academics
Put the goalposts on the ground, friendo.

>>10263302
>>10263331
Hold up, are you saying that a prominent philosophy has criticized Land? throw me a link, I gotta see that.

>>10263331
>Adjuncts
>bad kind of academics
Wewlad

>>10263260
>he just hates how people use relativism and lack of objectivity

Contrary to popular belief, this is has little to do with postmodernism. Skepticism towards absolute truth has been a topic in Western philosophy since Kant.

Why does Peterson throw in Lacan with the likes of Derrida and Foucault? Lacan was Structuralist and influenced post structuralism thought, right? There's a difference between Post Structuralism and Postmodernism. People who call themselves Lacanian aren't inherently Postmodernists.
This also brings up the critical flaw of Peterson's critique. Since postmodernism is such a broad spectrum, you would have to be very specific about what you are trying to critique. And not all postmodern thought is exactly the same and not all postmodernists think in the same way.

>>10263418
A lot of people who are currently into these thoughts are heavily influenced by Postmodern philosophers though. Chomsky has first hand experience of this, I do too. You can't handwave away every criticism of postmodernism ma dude because some of it is very legitimate and necessary.

peterson is likely the finest jungian philosopher of oour time and his insights into jungian psychology have changed the academic literature on that subject. he's indeed worth a shot

>>10263448
>his insights into jungian psychology have changed the academic literature on that subject.
Yeah, him and all the 10 undergrad papers he has been cited in really does move Jungian thought and field of psychology further.

>>10263431
The same reason he doesn't even mention, let alone address two dozen different postmodern thinkers or doesn't actually criticize Foucault's or Derrida's concepts and theories, resorting instead to throwing around colorful epithets and describing how he feels about it. As >>10263269 said postmodernism is just a code word for "anything I think is bad" among his followers. Personally I think that's deliberate and very clever: postmodernism is rather hard to define qualitatively, many pomo phil works have obvious common faults like a penchant for obscurantist language and are dense enough to dissuade anyone without strong special interest from factually engaging with them. Plus as an -ism it sounds high-brow and "sciency". It's pretty much as perfect an alternative for "degeneracy" as one could hope in Peterson's place.

>>10262350
I thought many of the world's problems could be traced to an organized cabal of mischevious Jews in the Frankfurt school, instead realized that Capitalism promotes many of the social disfunction we experience for profit without Jews. I still don't like Jews but whatever.

So 2016 was the year people experimented with antimarxism and 2017 was the year they came back to marxism, right?

>>10262376
He still puts forward the clearly faulty argument that the plight of the post-modern subject is caused by their personal actions or modes of tought. He fails to understand the post-modern theories as a honest attempt at explaining the condition and not a cause for it.

>>10263495
Didn't Foucoult die of AIDS from too many Poz loads up his colon? Doesn't such an end naturally dissuade people from realizing his ideals? (PS: haven't read him)

>>10263495
But Peterson should have some familiarity with Lacan as Lacan is an influential psychologist. I don't know how you wouldn't if you are such a big name psychology professor. How do you conflate Lacan's work with pomo is above me.

>>10263565
He probably is familiar with it. You're presupposing his "critique" of postmodernism is an intellectually honest attempt at actual criticism and not just theatrics that he himself is keenly aware of.

>>10263323
Jesus Christ, dude, do you ever shut up about the Jews?

>>10263565
French psychoanalytic theory is not widely accepted. Which makes sense, given the highly speculative and ultimately unprovable nature of Lacans proposals.

>>10263553
1. you can catch STDs from hetero sex as well
2. homosexuality isnt a postmodern idea, much less Foucaults idea, much less an idea at all - its simply a form of sexuality

>>10263692
Except for the not widely accepted part, how is it any different than most of the other psychoanalytical theories?

>>10263806
While Freuds initial theories are widely seen as outdated, the basic assumptions - that mental illness is often a result of childhood trauma, the earlier, the worse - have been proven empirically.

>>10263418
>since Kant
SOMEBODY HASN'T READ THE GREEKS
I am greek.

>>10263926
>>>/bant/

>>10261923
>Frozen served a political purpose: to demonstrate that a woman did not need a man to be successful. Anything written to serve a political purpose (rather than to explore and create) is propaganda, not art. Frozen was propaganda, pure and simple. Beauty and the Beast (the animated version) was not.

No seriously, what did he mean by this?

>>10265580
to succeed as a woman you need ice magic capable of creating sentient independent beings stronger than any human, and freezing over an entire country without even trying

basically you need to be a demi god

>>10265580
Truly the sharpest intellect of our time

>>10262263
What do you think is an adequate alternative to both capitalism and communism?

>he claims to be smart but he authors threads like this

>>10265755
Paleotechnocracy

>>10265772
Elaborate on this meme

>>10265779
Tribal leader chosen by who best with stick

>>10265580
>Frozen was propaganda, pure and simple. Beauty and the Beast (the animated version) was not.
my gott this is one of the worst cases I've ever encountered, we'll have to perform field surgery on his transcendental imagination ASAP

>>10262159

Can confirm, started reading Solzhenitsyn because of Jordan and now I'm here.

I just like Peterson because he helped me get my shit together and stop being a parasite on myself and people around me. Frankly don't give a fuck about his political stance or thoughts on postmodernism

>>10266233
>he helped me get my shit together and stop being a parasite on myself and people around me
I've got news for you, Mark...

>>10262440
>muh jews

>>10266247
The "muh jews" are bad people. Is this your first day on the internet, bruh?

>>10266238
me before listing to peterson:
unemployed, dropped out of school, virgin, no hobbies, barely any friends, taking meds for my anxiety

6 months after listening to Peterson:
working and saving money to move to San Diego with my brother, transfered from a cc to a great architecture school, solid group of friends, been through multiple girls(don't want a gf), spend most of my free time reading, writing, painting and working out.
This was honestly pretty surprising because I'm usually extremely skeptical of public speakers and intellectuals but his lectures really hit me deep. Just stay away from the political bullshit

>>10266330
>been through multiple girls(don't want a gf),
You might be gay.

>>10266336
nah Im scared of commitment and showing real vulnerability, something I'm still trying to work on

>>10261929
>>10261929
>>10261929
>>10261929
>>10261929
>>10261929
>>10261929

>>10266350
You sound like a real piece of work. Tell your friends about Jordan Peterson.

>>10261953
Are this ironic comments? They sure reads like ironic comments

>>10266370
I hate being that guy to shill their latest self help bullshit, I'll keep it to myself and be appreciative something took me off the path of a meaningless, terrible existence. For the first time in my life I'm actually looking forward to the future and wake up eveyday knowing exactly what needs to be done

>>10266382
>I hate being that guy to shill their latest self help bullshit,
If these people are your friends then you should let them know that instead of going to therapy or finding religion, you watched an adjunct professor's psychology lectures on YouTube and achieve great results. Tell them about how liberals are postmodernists and stuff.

>>10266382
Pay the jewish shills no mind. Good for you on positive life change. Maybe you aren't yet ready, but if you're white the next step you have to take is tackling the jewish problem, which Peterson has given you an implicit introduction to. That you are knowingly or not on the precipice of this is why you are being attacked itt for bettering yourself.

>>10263323
And as has been noted many times, most notably by /lit/, /pol/tards repeat the same arguments over and over so it's always the same:
>muh jews
>muh doesn't understand Jewish Question
>muh post-modernism is a jewish plot
And /pol/tards have no self-awareness so they just keep hammering it. Really annoying.

>>10266386
quite a bit of salt in this post

>>10266325
>muh jews

>>10266512
This sums up the limited mind of the poster who on the brink of 2018 still doesn't understand the jewish problem. A total failure of intellect.

>>10265784
>Tribal leader chosen by who best with stick
literally me

>>10262251
Beware, the tinfoil is showing.

>>10261950
I love how you linked YouTube videos instead of anything written with proper citations.

>>10262017
Pretty much describes why my friend is into him. I love the guy but he just watches alt right youtubers and gets into arguments with me about shit he doesn't know what he's talking about. It's just lazy if I'm being honest.

>>10266650
Well how am I supposed to link to a book? I can't afford Peterson's books anyway, I just watch his lectures. He says that's good enough.

>>10266665
Damn, I literally have the same friend. He watches Rubin Report, Peterson stuff and similar crap and thinks he is "le rational male". Arguing with him is so tiring too because at some point he just starts spouting shit like "not an argument".

>>10266571
They have as much power as you let them have, and no more than that.

bump

>>10262520
All of those things you mention the germans created in reaction to the Two World Wars happened before the second.

>>10262520
Also, drawing cottages IS expressionism and it necessarily predates WWI, considering a lot of the expressionists died in it.

>>10267411
Oh yeah. Not an argument is one of the most autistic man child thing I can think of. I tried talking to him about post modernism (something I can appreciate, but not something I'm an expert in) and every time I would say something he'd say "well 1+1=2, doesn't it?"

It's just intellectually lazy to quote YouTubers and dismiss something because you don't understand it.

>>10262599
>Joyce (the textbook "postmodern author")
lmao

>>10261986

Even if Peterson is the soulless piece of work that this thread, and much of current /lit makes him out to be, he is still currently one of the few reputable intellectuals in the public eye to actively work against the shit-show that is post-secondary institutions. If there are others, I'd be thrilled to know, but as far as I'm aware, Peterson is one of the few actively targeting the scam that is university humanities right now. He deserves at least a bit of respect for this much alone

t. autist currently trapped in uni humanities

>>10269446
It would be nice to know what your problems are with them and how they relate to Peterson, if only to get this shit thread somewhat on track in the next decade.

>>10262066
protagonist syndrome

>he claims to be smart but doesn't even acknowledge the Jewish Problem

>>10263692
Jung isn't widely accepted anymore either. Doesn't stop Memerson from lecturing about him.

>>10262562
>Joyce (the textbook "postmodern author")
>Joyce (the textbook "postmodern author")
>Joyce (the textbook "postmodern author")
>Joyce (the textbook "postmodern author")
>Joyce (the textbook "postmodern author")
Why doesn't anyone in this shithole actually read anything?

>>10269458

Well kind sir, thank you for asking, and I will elaborate, just to get things (hopefully) back on track. Being in the environment I am, a university, I'd of hoped for a robustness of thought. I'm not speaking of someone who agrees with me, just rather someone who looks deeper than surface level at all the Marxist content we are taught. Peterson, from what I've seen, recognizes the prevalence of this content, and how the kids coming in are just having their baseline ideological notions confirmed, not challenged. This, from what I can tell, is mostly prevailing in the humanities, especially gender studies and those related.
I don't want to beat a dead horse or anything here, but the stereotype of heavy left/feminist as tone deaf to logic is fairly correct. Which saddens me, cause I thought that shit was a bit of a meme

>>10269446
>he is still currently one of the few reputable intellectuals in the public eye to actively work against the shit-show that is post-secondary institutions
How can that be true when he's everything wrong with them?

>>10269509
>but the stereotype of heavy left/feminist as tone deaf to logic is fairly correct. Which saddens me, cause I thought that shit was a bit of a meme
You realize that this isn't a problem that only leftists have, right? I mean in the past few years conservatism has stopped even pretending to care about logic and argument.

>>10269469
>protagonist syndrome

Oh, do explain.

/lit/ is just buttmad that Peterson held up a mirror to what they are. Majority of /lit/ sois will decry the pomo left as "late capitalism," but at the same time agree with its normative tenets. Which implies they are either bitches for capital, or not being wholly truthful about their (vengeful) intentions.

>>10270259
>Majority of /lit/ sois will decry the pomo left as "late capitalism," but at the same time agree with its normative tenets.
>He still doesn't get what postmodernism is

>>10270168
I do realize that the right has issues as well (I'd consider myself more "left" than "right", but that's besides the point), what I'm saying is that in this context, the predominant ideologue on campus, which is left, is not putting forth any depth to the learning taking place. I don't give two fucks who is teaching me and what bias is the underlying current in the course, but I'd like to at least have an honest acknowledgement of that bias, and why I should embrace it.
>>10270162
Explain yourself anon, how is he worse than those who willing brainwash the populace with zero self awareness. Also, inb4 "he is brainwashing", if he is doing just that, he's being a hell of a lot more transparent than the profs who subversively preach values at an all or nothing stand point to those unawares. With Peterson, although he can be flawed, you at least know what you're tuning in for

>>10270360
>what I'm saying is that in this context, the predominant ideologue on campus, which is left, is not putting forth any depth to the learning taking place.
Do you really think that 'learning' is the point of a university?
>Also, inb4 "he is brainwashing", if he is doing just that, he's being a hell of a lot more transparent than the profs who subversively preach values at an all or nothing stand point to those unawares.
But he is brainwashing them. His transparency doesn't make him better, it makes the people he fools dumber.

>>10270370
>'learning' is the point of a university
I mean ideally, yea I'm here to learn. Trying to better myself in some regard. I can't say the same for everyone else. It's become a bit of a money grab I'm aware, but I think the core experience is still there.
>the people he fools are dumber
can't really disagree with you on that one, but overall I think the shtick he's giving to them is superior to the shtick given by Marxist post-secondary profs.
It's cleaning your room, getting your life together, and thinking post modernism is shit vs. disliking many western ideals and societal structures

>>10270383
>I mean ideally, yea I'm here to learn
This isn't an ideal world. You have fundamental misconceptions about the role of knowledge in our society.
>but overall I think the shtick he's giving to them is superior to the shtick given by Marxist post-secondary profs.
I see no reason to agree with you.
You should probably be studying or something, finals are coming up, big boi

>>10270389
>You have fundamental misconceptions about the role of knowledge in our society
Perhaps. One could argue it plays an integral role in a wide swath of contemporary life, and it is just undervalued by mainstream consumers.
>I see no reason to agree with you.
And I see no reason to not agree, but that's pretty subjective I suppose.
>You should probably be studying or something, finals are coming up, big boi
maybe if you were Peterson you could pull off such a life-correcting statement

>>10270408
>Maaaaaybeeee, man
>That's, like, subjective, man!
It's a good thing you're concerned with learning, you're clearly retarded.

>>10263147
I donated money to him because he changed my life forever

This is something you don't understand, although I see you're just shitposting and I wont pass judgement on your post

>He really changed my life around the first time he was on the Joe Rogan podcast
>The first time I heard his message I did so much research and spent hours looking into his youtube talks
>Like I said, I chose to donate because he is in the process of changing lives like he did mine

>>10270413
Just couldn't stop yourself from resulting to the old bait & switch, had to throw in some insults? As you said, I've got studies to attend to, so I'll leave you to it.
>I see no reason to agree with you
>And I see no reason to not agree
Agreeing with a point that is hard to nail down and would take paragraphs of shit-throwing to determine the value of (which we wouldn't agree on anyway) is probably better to be just left to "subjective", but I know, being an ass is easier.
>Sure, I'm the retarded one

>>10270442
Yes, you are retarded. Run along and write that paper that will demonstrate to your professors that you're a good student.

I don't need to read Dianetics to know LRH is retarded.

>>10270421
Aww

>>10261927
i bet op eats a lot of crunch wrap supremes

.>Peterson wakes up in the morning with a lulz worthy intuition about the individualizing of intersectionality (granted to him by his alignment with the logos)
>Contemplates it for a while and converts it into a well-articulated (99th percentile verbal intelligence) presentation of the idea
>calls up his artist buddy for a free flowing talk
>enlightened mutual exchange of ideas
>both are energized
>shitposts it on his youtube channel without any additional editing or production
>generates a few easy thousand in revenue

>lit cockroaches scurry out of their disgusting hive, screeching about how he's "retarded"
>no one pays attention
>deep down they know that they will never experience the caliber of enlightened friendship on display in the video because they are not sorted and are not the geniuses their 4th grade teacher told them they were

>81 posters
You people are fucking dumb

>>10271674
it's mostly ten guys who changed their IP a few times

>>10271677
>10 posters putting that much effort into posting into a bait thread
Those people are fucking dumb

>>10262470
I'd characterize postmodernism (in cultural terms) as the fall of arboreal epistemology (most sharply felt after WWII and Nagasaki/Hiroshima) and the acceleration of social atomization that followed.

>>10261923
>He laughs about about people not being smart while not even having ever had the idea of naming his image macros.

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/930672782278582272

He's bad but he isn't as bad as a Molimeme or a Sargon of a Cuck.

>>10271830

who are you again?

>>10261923
>He claims to be smart but wastes his time on obvious nonsense for the sake of telling people he read it.

One "lecture" was enough for me, thanks

>>10261923
>claims to be smart in addition to being a 4chan user.

>>10261927
fpbp

Jordan is truly the prophet of our times.

>>10274921

The Day of the Coronation of the Great Enlightened Ruler Father-Figure

>>10267828
how many jews are in congress, hollywood, media????? BAKA
In us, jews are 1.4% of population but over 50% of senators are jewish....?!??!?!?!

https://www.c-span.org/video/?436974-1/hearing-examines-antisemitism-college-campuses

>>10276177
amazing how a high IQ helps groups succeed. you're just jealous, anon.

>>10261923
Why is Jordan noplatforming Faith Goldy?