/lit/ - Literature

>>14665359
>>14663997
I just found this. Seems that Olivelle is by no means the sole authority on the subject.

In any case, Guenon's "asceticism is mentioned in a Veda therefore any subsequent monasticism in India is VEDIC" argument is retarded. Shankara implemented Buddhist monasticism with a Vedic twist in India.

>>14665326
Wow, we finally got Guenonfag reading scholarship! Only when it suits him, but still an improvement from before. At least you're not citing neovedantist religious propaganda anymore. Although dude, you can't just say "no one has refuted olivelle he is UNREFUTED." That you always conceive of debates in terms of "debunking," "refuting," "BTFOing," etc., is weakening your ability to critically engage with texts and traditions.

From the same Wikipedia article where you found Olivelle:

Olivelle 1993, p. 68, Quote: "It is obvious that vedic society contained large numbers of people whose roots were non-Aryan and that their customs and beliefs must have influenced the dominant Aryan classes. It is quite a different matter, however, to attempt to isolate non-Aryan customs, beliefs, or traits at a period a millennium or more removed from the initial Aryan migration."

Olivelle 1993, p. 68, Quote: "The Brahmanical religion. furthermore, like any other historical phenomenon, developed and changed over time not only through external influences but also by its own inner dynamism and because of socio-economic changes, the radical nature of which we have already discussed. New elements in a culture, therefore, need not always be of foreign origin."

So there are non-Vedic influences and complex developments. The author of the OP picture (are you the OP?), Max Muller, also believes that the societies of the late Brahmanic period were in extreme flux and that the Upanishads constitute a break away from the Brahman castes (he also includes the Aranyakas in this). Partially this was a rebellion of the kshatriyas, but of course we know next to nothing about what this society actually looked like. One of the few things we can say for certain is that the Brahmanas proper seem to show considerable drift both linguistically and in terms of content, and they are organized by communities (as associated with certain families or perhaps even rulers).

So it's likely that the sramana revolution was many-faceted and drew from lots of different channels, including a non-priestly upper caste "social" revolt against the priestly caste (? hard to know what this really was), various ethnic/linguistic/religious outsiders, and so forth.

Pic related is from Bronkhorst in 1998, and he seems to qualify or disagree with Olivelle. I haven't read it though, just cherry-picking here.

>>14665371
Can you link the papers? Sounds interesting. I thought the Scythian hypothesis was a meme.