/jp/'s translation elitism

[Anonymous No.]

/jp/, what do you think about this.

We all know there are many anons on the board who are very elitist about Japanese issues.

For instance, "I only play untranslated VNs", "nothing should be translated because casuals", etc.
Moogy I have heard is very extreme in this way, for instance.

Well that's fine but let's consider this.
What if everyone had thought the same way?

What if no one in history ever translated science lectures, medical textbooks, ancient scriptures, etc?

Greek translations helped us with medicine. And democracy. Latin translations helped us with science and just about everything in the humanities. The fairytales we liked when we were young are very often translated from German or Danish. And finally, if no one had ever bothered to translate Japanese media at some point then you'd probably never have gotten into it in the first place unless your native language is Japanese.

Think of all the historically important books you can only read in translation.

If all the smart educated people back in the day had thought "No, fuck off, if you want to read this then learn the language, I'm not translating it for casual secondaries" then we would still be in the dark ages in many respects (and lots of people did think this. Until relatively recently English used to be regarded as unfit for intellectual purposes). Translation is what makes the world go round. With ideas.

Well, just something to think about.
Please don't bully me for making this thread.

[Anonymous No.]

A little while ago I was thinking maybe we should do regular translation threads, but on our timetable. Something like iitran's imageboard.
I would enjoy doing it, and maybe some useful content could come out of it.

Obviously we still shouldn't pander to idiots making request threads about their tattoos or whatever.

[Anonymous No.]

>If all the smart educated people back in the day had thought "No, fuck off, if you want to read this then learn the language, I'm not translating it for casual secondaries"

They only translated things because it was their job.

I'm not gonna be doing it for free.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571235
We are elitist towards people who only read translated VNs because they are all casualshit and the people who read them have no fucking idea about the subject but are still eager to throw their unqualified opinions about the whole scene and industry at our heads.

Translation request threads are a bad idea and you should feel bad for even suggesting them. They will attract people who don't belong here in the first place.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571261
>They only translated things because it was their job.

You would be surprised.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571261
But the smart educated people did think like that. Law, medicine and science was actually done almost exclusively in Latin for millennium and a half after Roman Empire disappeared precisely because of what you describe. It's just normal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571282
You want to read Plato? Fuck you, learn Greek.

[Anonymous No.]

Just dump the scripts into wiki.
It isnt that hard to use rikaichan.
I am pretty sure some people will use it as a way to study or work on their elementary level japanese.

Why dont you dump some touhou doujin games script there.

[Anonymous No.]

They're not elitists, they're just shitty human beings. Learning Japanese does something to a person that makes them an insufferable dick (kinda like anyone who thinks too highly of themselves).

The less of them around, the better.

[Anonymous No.]

How about you get lost, /vg/ faggot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571282
Well it was written in Latin, because it was the universal language of science all around the world.
Just like english is the language of the interbutts since it reaches the biggest amount of people.

Having to learn 1 language to understand any scientific text > learning every language.

Also Luther translated the bible "just because" so people who didn't read hebrew (=pretty much everyone that wasn't jewish) could read it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571377
This. Five years ago, Moogy was a bright, happy young lad who did charity work and was loved by all. But now...

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571235
I don't mind translations. What I don't like is the side effect: as you make something more widely available, more people will come in. Unfortunately, this includes people that contributes negatively.

Also, VNs are hobbies. Not science lectures, nor medical textbooks. I just want to enjoy it at my own discretion. I'd love to share it with people who can have the same level of appreciation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571418

This is more an issue of environment though. You know there are people who discuss Touhou as much as they browse Facebook and MyAnimeList or whatever, right? Yet we also have /jp/. The same subject discussed, usually in translation, but by completely different people. It's a matter of time and place.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571280
No one translated medical textbooks, ancient scriptures, science lectures, etc. just as an amateur hobby. They were either already affiliated with academia or the clergy or hoping to end up in such a position.

Personally I don't see the point of translating any more things. There's already hundreds of anime and manga series, VNs, some LNs translated out there. That's plenty to spark people's interests. On the other hand, if there weren't so much I would have been motivated to learn Japanese earlier and wouldn't have wasted my time watching/reading so much in English. Not translating new material for things would be an act of kindness.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571399
>Well it was written in Latin, because it was the universal language of science all around the world.

Indeed. Pretty much everything in Greek got translated into Latin, because more people knew Latin.

(That was considered the mark of real education. It was taken for granted that anyone worth talking to could read Latin, so their skill at Greek was the true measure of a scholar.)

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571418
>who can have the same level of appreciation.
What do you mean?
Have you checked out /vg/? I am pretty sure they have shown a much higher level of appreciation to it compare to normal japanese.
How they can talk about muvluv for years and years, and going batshit insance over tuttuuruuuu~ and dr pepper is something that I will never understand.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571377
It's not learning the language that makes them a dick. Only if they try to pretend it makes them super special and amazing. To me, it's not worth my time to learn Japanese. I'm not big into VNs. It's easier to pay someone to translate the odd book I might want to read. Most things I enjoy don't need translation anyway (some video games, mostly H). I'm definitely not planning to travel there.

There are millions of people trying to pull you in different directions and there's no way everyone has time to fulfil everything that everyone expects them to do.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571449
Not translating new material would be an act of kindness.*

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571399
Such texts were written in Latin because if anyone could read them, a lot of people would call bullshit on lawyers, doctors, scientists and clergymen. Which they did once medical, legal, scientific and religious knowledge was made more available.

They wanted to exclude as many people as possible because it was beneficial for them. Though I guess you could argue this is unlike the untranslated VN folk who exclude as many people as possible for no good reason.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571467
>exclude as many people as possible for no good reason.

Secret club~

[Anonymous No.]

I don't see the point of translating a work for a bunch sassy faggots who'd eventually craves more and more while not being thankful that someone else is ruining their easyness for you to take it easy.

Maybe I should ask for more "donations" to keep up my "translation site" while in reality I just use those money for myself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571263
nailed it

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571452

This was a good thing. Latin was the universal language of learning, which meant that you could write a work in Latin and every educated European would understand it despite possibly having a completely different native language than the author. So Newton's works would be understood by Germans as much as his own compatriots, etc. It's good.

What would be cool is if Japanese was taken in a similar way as a standard otaku language. It won't be though because laziness.

[Anonymous No.]

4chan: arguably the largest English anime forum on the web.

NO TRANSLATIONS ALLOWED.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571481

Learn your place. You're not clever or special for learning a shitty dead language, you are my fucking weeaboo slave and if I want you to translate something you will fucking do it nerd

[Anonymous No.]

People in every hobby will try to distance themselves from others because it makes them feel superior and worth something. Even if the hobby is cartoon porno book/games.

[Anonymous No.]

elitism is good
when something gets too popular it goes to shit
see: videogames

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571449
I know what you mean. Now that I'm finally learning Japanese, I'm trying to avoid translations as much as possible. I'm still caving in all the time because, frankly, I still don't understand a shit, but I always feel bad about my laziness when I do. If more things were untranslated, I might be reading less, but I'd be working my ass off to understand them more often, and my Japanese would improve much faster.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571496
>You're not clever or special for learning a shitty dead language.

Clever enough to learn it and ask for Donations.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571524

While you do that, I'll rake in the thousands of dollars I make from my online business and continue using weeaboo faggots as slave translators. E-peen is far greater in value than money to these people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571542
By any chance did you write this article:
http://foolrulez.org/blog/2012/01/the-age-of-scanlators-and-money/
?

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571542
If you can tolerate the level of quality they produce, I suppose that works. For myself, I can't stand what most non-professional translators think is acceptable style.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571560

>I can't stand what most non-professional translators think is acceptable style.

For me it's the opposite, the only "professional" translations weeaboo products tend to get are shitty licensing companies and I hate their staid, dull styles. Fan translations are bit sloppier but they have charm.

And at the end of the day we're talking about translating Semen Maid Assault 3: Wrath of the Cock Monster here, not the Iliad. With context I am willing to let my standards slip.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571586

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571586
>For me it's the opposite, the only "professional" translations weeaboo products tend to get are shitty licensing companies and I hate their staid, dull styles. Fan translations are bit sloppier but they have charm.

I pretty much agree -- the kinds of translators hired for Semen Maid Assault 3 tend to be the bottom of the barrel. There are good Japanese translators, but they aren't hired for things like that.

That's why I end up studying the language and just trying to read it myself.

[Anonymous No.]

>then we would still be in the dark ages

There would be no western powers, the Native Americans wouldn't have been massacred and raped of their cultural identity, China would be the only world power, Christianity would be dead, capitalism wouldn't exist, the planet would be far less polluted, and humanity as a whole would be more culturally diverse.

Sounds like a much better world. Damn translators ruined the whole planet.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571620
We know what the world looks like where Christianity did not reach or was pushed back. As brutal as they were, Christian kingdoms were far more benign than pagan kingdoms of comparable sizes. For all their faults, Christian democracies of the modern era were bastions of freedom and human rights compared to Communist regimes (regardless of whether you want to classify them as atheistic or cults of Dear Leader).

Ideas such as human rights are the product of Christianity. A non-Christian world would be a grim and bloody place -- even more so than our world already is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571641
is this nigga serious

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571641

>Ideas such as human rights are the product of Christianity.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571645
This nigga is completely serious.

In the 20th century, what were the non-Christian powers? The Ottoman Empire; Imperial Japan; Communist Russia; Qing China; Communist China.

Compare their records against Christian nations of the day, and tell me that human nature unrestrained by the pretense of gentleness or even lip service to Christian virtues is anything but more vicious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571651
Unintentionally, you have picked a good example of how Christianity advanced human rights.

Mob killings have existed as long as humanity has, but it was the Chruch and the Inquisition that reigned in these excesses. Instead of peasants murdering their neighbors using whatever pretext they pleased, the Church imposed rules of evidence and required trials before punishment was sanctioned.

For all the horrors told of the Inquisition, more people were found innocent than guilty -- and contrary to popular belief, evidence obtained under torture was considered inadmissible (unlike in pre-Christian times, and even in non-Christian regimes in the 20th century).

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571641
Christianity was largely based on Aristotelian ideas that were already widespread. In fact, Christianity just plagiarized and twisted the ideas to suit its agenda.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571660
dude just shut up

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571651
by burning that vile witch, this good Christian protected countless innocent human beings from the horrors of their black sorcery. Sounds absolutely inhuman.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571660
The fuck does this mean?

I don't know about you guys, but I think nigger lynchings were great for multiculturalism and racial tolerance. Previously people would have just killed each other willy-nilly, but by organizing lynch mobs and brutally murdering black people, it led to the equality and sensitivity we know today.

Now someone give the KKK a Nobel Peace Prize.

[Anonymous No.]

>Intellectual discussion on /jp/
Well color me impressed

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571681
>The fuck does this mean?

It means that before the Inquisition, "witch hunts" were the equivalent of lynchings. Rather than having arrived with Christianity, witches (and witch hunts) were based on local folklore and preexisting pagan superstitions, much like fairies and werewolves.

What the Inquisition brought were trials and rule of law, rather than mob rule.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571654

More harm has been caused in the name of Christianity than any other religion.

Just look at North and South America. Two entire continents where the Spanish, English, and French slaughtered the entire indigenous population. Aside from the little concentration camps in the U.S where the native americans are still allowed to live and the few remote areas in South America there is pretty much nothing left of these people.

The vast majority of this was based upon the motivation of forcefully converting the "savages" to Christianity.

Is there any other religion in the world that has managed to wipe out two entire continents?

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571693
>More harm has been caused in the name of Christianity than any other religion.

That is probably true, since Christianity is the largest of all religions. More harm has been done in the name of Christianity. More good has also been done in the name of Christianity. Neither of these by themselves indicate that Christianity is better or worse as a religion than other religions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571693
South American natives mostly died from European diseases they didn't have any sort of immunity. But yeah, it was really wrong to make them slaves.

[Anonymous No.]

Why in the world would /jp/ get trolled into a serious discussion about religion?
Must be crossboard scum.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571263
>who read them have no fucking idea about the subject but are still eager to throw their unqualified opinions about the whole scene and industry at our heads.
Pretty much this. /jp/ does have it's share of "lol translated = popular = bad" idiots. But I think (hope) that most of us only kick casual babbies because many of them think they're so special and edgy as "pioneers of a new medium" while only having read 1 or 2 starter VNs (read: Katawa Shoujo).

It's the same hate /v/, /mu/ or /lit/ throws at casual babbies.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571620
>China would be the only world power
God the horror

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571693
>The vast majority of this was based upon the motivation of forcefully converting the "savages" to Christianity.

That is flatly contradicted by the historical record, at least as far as the English and the Spanish. (I have not read much about French colonization in North America.)

Cortes's massacres of the indigenous peoples were fiercely protested by the Church -- you cannot save those who are already dead. His defiance of the religious hierarchy shows he was concerned with the natives' silver, not their souls. Religious justifications were applied post-facto.

The motivation for English colonization in the North-East was establishing religious communes, not proselytizing to the natives. The motivation for English colonization in the Mid-East was tobacco farming, not proselytizing to the natives. Both of these are evident in their charters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571698

>Neither of these by themselves indicate that Christianity is better or worse as a religion than other religions.

Christianity is an aggressive religion. You don't have to look any further than the bible to find evidence of that.

>The Christian Great Commission is the instruction of the resurrected Jesus Christ to his disciples that they spread his teachings to all the nations of the world.

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Commission

Any religion which demands that you spread knowledge of it and threatens the wrath of hell upon anyone who doesn't convert is probably not the friendliest religion in the world. The only reason that Christianity was this successful is because it's such an aggressive religion. Buddhism and Hinduism are far more passive religions and they don't promote the kind of cultural rape that Christianity encourages through its missionary work.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm going to post a picture of Moogy every time you mention him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571744
>Buddhism and Hinduism are far more passive religions and they don't promote the kind of cultural rape that Christianity encourages through its missionary work.

How can you possibly call Buddhism a "passive" religion in terms of seeking converts? The Buddhists are the original missionaries, and their footprints can be traced all the way from India to Japan.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571717
Case in point and fresh from the presses. Remember when all the reviewers for 999 complained that "it had too much text"? Or many news sites said that KataShit is a "Japanese" "dating sim".

Then when these people read a few more VNs they suddenly become "experts" on the subject and start writing articles on their blogs or god forbid, gaming news sites. Usually praising Typemoon or Key as the "big companies" that "started this all".

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571693
this is really cute, they didn't die because of christianity, the indians died because of the european lust for gold and territory

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571693
>The vast majority of this was based upon the motivation of forcefully converting the "savages" to Christianity.

No it was based upon "WE WANT LAND MONEY AND POWER".

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571744
>Any religion which demands that you spread knowledge of it and threatens the wrath of hell upon anyone who doesn't convert is probably not the friendliest religion in the world.

You picked a bad example, since Buddhism and Hinduism also "threaten" hell upon those who violate their teachings.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571744
Judaism is an aggressive religion. You don't have to look any further than the Torah to find evidence of that.

Fixed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571846
All major religions are aggressive religions. It's how they became major religions.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm sorry, I know this thread has been derailed, but I have to ask:

>We all know there are many anons on the board who are very elitist about Japanese issues.
>For instance, "I only play untranslated VNs"

How is this even elitist? That is literally the way these games are meant to be played. If you have the ability to understand it, then reading the untranslated version is the logical thing to do. Calling this elitist is like a toothless guy getting mad at someone because he uses his teeth to chew food.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571928
I think he is referring more to people who refuse to play VNs which have received a translation, even in their original language. I remember someone linking some of Moogy's posts where he says that he doesn't want to read translated stuff anymore because otherwise people would "think him as a pleb that read the VN in question with the translation".

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571902
What about buddhism?

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571943

> "think him as a pleb that read the VN in question with the translation".

He should probably be more concerned with looking like a chubby autistic faggot

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571963
original missionaries, also it's a shit hurr durr abandon your feelings and desires. we are not robots you know

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571943
Does Moogy even visit/post on /jp/?

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571991
I like the concept of Buddhism, training yourself in order to become a better person and better the world instead of doing good things only to be rewarded after your dead.
Of course every religon is good by itself, it's always about making the world a better place.
But as long as there are humans there will be someone who abuses religion to obtain power

[Anonymous No.]

>>9572020
He used too. Back then he was also an english only pleb, doing menial task like editing Sunflower girl while inserting meme like a cat is fine, jackhammer and stuff to pander to /jp/ crowd. Then he sold out to JAST and became an eroge expert player.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9572027
But there is a rewards in Buddhism. Do good and be reborn as a higher being. Do bad and be reborn as a lower being.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571235
>What if no one in history ever translated science lectures, medical textbooks, ancient scriptures, etc?

Then they would be stupid. The only reason they did such things was so that other nations wouldn't have the upper hand. Do you really think people wanted to explore the sea based on some idealistic whim? They wanted to explore and steal other people's charts so they'd get rich. Your argument has no clear parallelism with translating a VN, as those are in the level of entertainment.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9571797
Why the fuck would you browse the escapist forums?

[Anonymous No.]

>>9572103
I want to be reborn as a cute Japanese girl. I have my work cut out for me. ;_;

[Anonymous No.]

>>9572128
Because I also play games and like some of the series featured there. Just noticed the headline by accident and took a look at the article's comments.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9572125
>I want to be reborn as a cute Japanese girl. I have my work cut out for me. ;_;

If you want to get reborn as something good, try to be virtuous without trying to attain enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9572142
>and like some of the series featured there

Then you are part of the problem.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9572163
hue hue