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/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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9449812 No.9449812 [Reply] [Original]

How much did RTK actually help you with learning Japanese? And is book 2 even worth it?

>> No.9449820

This thread again?

>> No.9449821

I'm using Kanji Damage.

>> No.9449834

>>9449821
What's the point of learning a bunch of Kanji you will never use?

>> No.9449956

It's best if you use that and memorise the kunyomi and onyomi at the same time. Can be tricky and take a while but if you use anki it should be straightforward and probably save time in the long run.

>> No.9449994

I bought Remembering the Kanji and it did not help me much. The only thing it teaches you is a way to remember the English meaning by looking at a kanji. It does not teach you anything about how it's pronounced in Japanese, kun'yomi or on'yomi, jukugo, etc.
For that, you'll need another source altogether, which by that point, why even get it at all. After I switched from RTK to KanjiDamage, that's when I really started LEARNING kanji and not just knowing how they look.

>> No.9450093 [DELETED] 

>>9449994
Knwoing how they look is important too though, right?

>> No.9450099

le this resembles a curved cock face

>> No.9450107 [DELETED] 

>>9450099
epic for the win

>> No.9450105

>>9449834
>bunch of Kanji you will never use

And how do you know that?

>> No.9450117

>>9450105
They teach you Kanji that even native Japanese don't use.

>> No.9450132

>>9449994

Heisig is more about making yourself familiar with the structure of kanji. It's more designed as an door opener. It's up to you if you find that useful.

>> No.9450139

>>9450117

For example? I read a lot of untranslated VNs and I've encountered pretty much every kanji damage kanji. And a lot more too. Sure, some of them are rarely used, but they're still in use.

>> No.9450141

Can someone upload RTK? I can't find a direct download link anywhere, just torrents.

>> No.9450166

>>9450139
That's the thing though, RTK has 400+ kanji that are arguably pointless to learn for their own sake especially as a beginner. Kanjidamage is probably a better resource. I wouldn't know since I used RTK.

I honestly don't know if it helped me or not. I probably wouldn't recommend it though, it takes too much diligence and I find it hard to believe it's worth the time and effort when you could be reading instead.

>> No.9450168

>>9450139

On a side note, the biggest problem with kanji damage is its inaccuracy. Some kanji get a straight up bullshit meaning. You have to be careful.

>> No.9450172

>>9450141
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?f47f1djhug5mrrf

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?1a3gdludnq76vmf

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?fzs8ajcjyxkcoms

>> No.9450175

>>9450117
Big deal. I know many words most native English speakers don't use, too.

>> No.9450180

>>9450175
But you started reading and speaking in English long before you learned those words. You didn't put them all in a vocab list and try to learn them all before reading any natural English.

>> No.9450185

>>9450172

Thanks.

>> No.9450193

>>9450180
This is the thing, learning a language by grammar rules and vocabulary lists and programs is a bad idea IMO. It's fine for learning basics like tae kim's guide, but at some point you should just start reading or listening to stuff instead if that's what you're into.

Let vocabulary come naturally.

>> No.9450201

>>9450193
I agree with this somewhat, but it's hard when you literally only know like 20 words to start reading. You literally don't know 98% of the words.

>> No.9450219

>>9450201
That's why you want to use text hook software with word-by-word definitions and browser addons. It still takes a long time in the beginning but it's rewarding and should quickly get easier.

>> No.9450233

How does /jp/ deal with crappy fonts/handwriting? Simply decrypting it by context? It's one of the most anoying things for me.

>> No.9450250

>>9450219

Yeah, that was the method I used. You just have to keep going because the beginning will be slow and painful. But it's probably still the fastest method.

Moege are really a great learning aid.

>> No.9450265

>>9450219
>>9450250

Would you mind explaining this method in a little more detail?

>> No.9450284

>>9450265

Take an easy to read Eroge without much plot, hook it with ITH, get Rikaichan and Furigana-Inserter and use the "moniter the clipboard" function of Furigana Inserter to copy the Japanese text on a blank HTML page, use Rikaichan for words you don't know, which will be a lot at the beginning. You need some basic grammar knowledge for that, though.

>> No.9450328

>>9450265
http://www.hongfire.com/forum/showthread.php/208860-Interactive-Text-Hooker-new-text-extraction-tool
http://www.hongfire.com/forum/showthread.php/94395-Translation-Aggregator-v0-4-9 (get jparser, it's mostly the only one you should be using)

This is what I use for VNs, works most of the time with default settings but for some you will need to look up hook codes to use(google it). You will notice if you need to do this because not all the text on the screen will make it to the clipboard.

Use rikaikun for chrome or rikaichan for firefox, they are basically the same thing.

some suggestions for easy vns: http://vndb.org/v5244
http://vndb.org/v917(whole series, whichever one you want)
http://vndb.org/v193

There are threads with suggestions for these kinds of vns on vndb as well.

>> No.9451030

>>9449812
Volume II is NOT worth it, and even after learning every single kanji in RTK I, you will come across anywhere from 2-5 kanji in an article that are not jouyou (most of the time they will have ruby text). Otherwise, pick up volume III, it contains around 1,000 additional kanji. If you want to learn the reading, start sentence mining articles and shit. It'll feel slow at first, but after a while you'll pick up on the context of the readings and grammar will come naturally.

>> No.9451072

I don't think it's faster than any other method that introduces kanji by radical. But don't expect to even get the "meaning" out of it, they're semi-frequently completely off mark.

I don't regret doing RTK, and I don't think learning kanji readings separately from vocabulary (like with kanjidicks) would've been worth the effort for me.

Learning "just how they look" is a fairly big deal, even if at face value that knowledge doesn't contribute much to your future reading ability. Being able to hook the look/writing of a kanji to anything in your mind makes the process of parsing and memorizing the vocabulary much easier.

The second book is worth downloading, skimming through and learning the huge groups of kanji that have the same reading if they have a certain radical in a certain location. Skip the smaller groups with seemingly arbitrary grouping.

I don't recommend the third book at all. Unpause new kanji as you encounter them and use the user stories from koohii.

>That's the thing though, RTK has 400+ kanji that are arguably pointless to learn for their own sake especially as a beginner.

This is true. A few years back on koohii I've seen edited anki decks that had very rare kanji paused, I'd recommend using those and saving yourself some time.

>> No.9451241

Okay so, from what I got from this thread and other threads is that I should:

Learn Katakana/Hiragana
Read some Genki/Some rosetta stone for listening, while learning about 2 kanji a day

Then I start reading online articles and shit once I get down the basics

That about right?

>> No.9451269

>>9451241
Yeah, sure, whatever. Do tell how your studies how going later on. We'd love to know. *sarcasm*

>> No.9451369

>>9451269
I think you need some english rosetta stone or something

>> No.9451490

>>9451241
Rosetta Stone and Genki aren't worth your time in my opinion

The argument being Rosetta Stone is only useful for listening comprehension, but why would you want to deal with boring as fuck things like Rosetta when you have VN / Anime etc out there for listening comprehension?

It's almost as if people want to choose the most boring route for themselves

And 2 Kanji a day? I don't get what you're trying to achieve with that, but if that's all you plan on doing enjoy spending 2 and a half years finishing the ones you need to know I guess

>> No.9451497

>>9451490
What's wrong with Genki? And more importantly, what do you suggest as an alternative?

>> No.9451585

>>9451497
Because Genki and textbooks are just boring, and I don't see the benefit of grinding your way through those

My opinion of learning Kanji via RTK / KD is similar to what >>9451072
said.
I think you should just focus on working your way through the 1700~ Kanji or whatever it is in KD, read about some grammar on the side, and then go straight onto VN's with ITH etc as was suggested earlier.

Obviously it will feel slow having to look up so much vocabulary at first, but I still think that is a lot more interesting than just working through a textbook

You could try not bothering with KD / RTK I suppose, but I'm only saying what worked for me personally, it's up to you if you want to try diving straight into VNs with ITH I suppose.

>> No.9451672
File: 80 KB, 487x700, tumblr_lxfxf30Wx11r9h6cpo4_500.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9451672

>>9451241
I disagree with the posts about Genki being useless-- and as far as textbooks are concerned, it is not boring. If you're someone who enjoys structured learning, Genki is one of the better texts. If you go through both volumes at a rapid, dedicated pace (2 months?) after RTK, it will be a good way to acquire a working knowledge of sentence structure and patterns. Obviously you should do whatever works best for you, as that's the method you'll gain the most from.

I would do RTK (with Anki) -> Genki I+II (with Anki for vocab and sentences) -> mining sentences -> JP to JP sentences

>> No.9451683

>>9451585
>>9451490
Genki is a good textbook, though; it's great for gramamr and sentence structure.

>> No.9451707

>>9451672
What exactly is sentence mining?

>> No.9451739

>>9451707
Assuming it means grabbing sentences from places that look interesting or unfamiliar and disassembling them.

>> No.9451879

>>9449834
Because of the cute patterns.
Same reason we play 2hu.
>>9450328
From what I've gathered :
Twinkle Crusaders, milky holmes, Natsuyume Nagisa,Nursery Rhyme, anything by Unison Shift or Key, Renai 0 Kilometer, Moonstone Cherry's games are also okay

>> No.9451891

While we're on the subject of reading, what would be some good LNs to consider?

>> No.9451897
File: 20 KB, 576x513, vagabond_swordfish-ii_89217.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9451897

>>9451707
Going through foreign material, grabbing a sentence and disassembling it so that you come to understand it in terms of it's components and as a whole (meaning operations of particles, and the translation of the entire sentence).

>> No.9451915

>>9451672
> working knowledge of sentence structure and patterns
10 years of watching anime do wonder.

>> No.9451943

>>9451897
With a language like japanese where it's all about the situation with the different word meanings and what not, how would you know you actually translated it properly?

I mean I could get: Dat bitch kawaii nigga

But the sentence actually means:

I enjoy going to eat tofu.

>> No.9451961

>>9451915
I noticed that too. I've had "I wanna learn Japanese someday" in the back of my head for years, so whenever I watch anime I really pay attention to the actual voiced dialogue and so grammar is coming really easily to me.

>>9451943
That's where the kanji come in. If it was all in kana then you might have problems, yeah, but the whole reason kanji exist is to prevent shit like that from happening.

>> No.9452296

>>9451915
Watching Anime will not do anything if you have no foundation and keep reading subtitles.

>> No.9452339

>>9452296
It will help if you only watch raw and study alongside.

most SOL are easy material.

>>
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