/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

Shanon has become quite hated thanks to Episode 6 and the possibility of her being the culprit. Did anyone ever think that she could also be a victim of the crime rather than the culprit? i.e being manipulated to the crimes is an example

[Anonymous No.]

Popular theory. Battler's sympathy with Beato when he finds the truth supports it.

[Anonymous No.]

Dine's 11: A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person -- one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion.

[Anonymous No.]

The only real purpose of Shkanon is to provide a loophole to get around some of the red truths. I very much doubt many people believe she's the sole culprit/mastermind.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884291
Knox rule 5:
>No Chinaman must figure in the story.
Umineko Knox rule 5:
>(not included)

Knox rule 1:
> 1. The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow.
Umineko Knox rule 1:
>It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story.

Knox rule 9:
>The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader.
Umineko Knox rule 9:
>It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard.

Knox rule 2:
>All supernaural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.
Umineko Knox rule 2:
>It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique

Dine rule 11:
>11. A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion.
Umineko Dine rule 11:
>The culprit must not be a minor character, and must have an adequate motive for committing the crime.

[Anonymous No.]

She is the main culprit, anyone who think otherwise doesn't pay attention.
Her reasons are why Battler had sympathy for her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884291
She is either a minion or she is simply being used.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884326

And tell me what possible good reasons could make Battler completly forgive Shanon A.K.A 'Beatrice' in EP5 and onwards for the mass murder of his family? (assuming Shanon is the culprit)

What possible reasons could Shanon have for mass murder that should make us viewers symphatise with her and justify her actions?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884351
YOU LACK LOVE

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884341
Meta-Beatrice is the legend of Rokkenjima in its entirety, which include the murders.
Therefore she also encompass the main culprit.
And she, and therefore the culprit, didn't do it for money, revenge or to make them fear her.

Then you have the repetitive WITHOUT LOVE IT CANNOT BE SEEN.
And LOVE IS DESTRUCTIVE, KILL EVERYONE FOR YOU LOVED ONE.
Then you have the epitaph
What Maria hopes from it, OPEN THE GOLDEN LAND AND BE REUNITED WITH YOUR LOVED ONE.
And the monologue of episode 6:
And, one day...

You will destroy everything, revive everything.
.....You will bring blessings to all lovers.

Honestly I don't know how you guys can miss this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884351
Well as long as this stuff only happens on the gameboard and it's possible for everything to be fixed with nobody dying, he shouldn't care. He probably saw the depths of her suffering in the truth. Something nobody could see through mere empathy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884370
Thank goodness, it's easy to miss taken out of context phrases.

[Anonymous No.]

EP6 only confirmed Shkanon (most likely Shkanontrice too).

But nothing on she/he/it being the killer

My guess is Shkanon is used to explain closed rooms, but the real culprit is a family member who went all "my crime follows the epitaph, LOL"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884371

So all Battler has to do is find a way to prevent Shanon from commiting murder...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884384
Except if it's true, she HAS to be the culprit in ep1-2 at the very least, which are the only 'real' episodes.

[Anonymous No.]

There is no proof that Beatrice is the culprit.
She may or may not be responsible for something, but there is nothing that says that Beatrice should be the culprit.

[Anonymous No.]

Battler is a precog, and at the time of the family cnference battler foresaw what would/could happen in various ways.

In the last episode he wakes up with his newfound knowledge and fixes everything before it goes out of hand.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884407
well, up until reading EP6, I was pretty sure Kanon was the cuplirt for EP1...

[Anonymous No.]

You guys are fucking delusional.

[Anonymous No.]

Pinning her as the culprit doesn't mean people hate her. They pin her as the culprit because she works best.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884525
>Pinning her as the culprit doesn't mean people hate her

I know that people are not pinning her as the culprit because they hate her but I've noticed people practically bashing Shanon as a cold blooded DID meido (who killed her fiance and best friend) who is a mass murderer as if it is already a fact (Then again Its hard to deny this in EP6)

[Anonymous No.]

I just think it will turn into the default Japanese story.

Shy girl raped for years turns crazy.

You'd think they could spice it up with "boy raped for years turns crazy" or something.

[Anonymous No.]

I'd troll with some words Ryu said about the motives, but the people now are such retarded that they will actually use it as an explanation, so I wouldn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884732


Raped by WHO

Kinzo wouldn't rape Beato

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884939
Read episode 4 again.
Or episode 2 for that matter.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884939

how dare you not put it past kinzo

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884942
>>5884944


He raped Beato 1, but he didn't touch Beato 2

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884947
And you know this because?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884957

She was innocent and she wasn't disturbed by him

[Anonymous No.]

i thought it was piece-beatrice saying how good it was to be raped in ep 4, meaning it was shannon

that scene is a blur to me, can't remember

[Anonymous No.]

...Beatrice.
Listen carefully.
I will turn over my love for Battler to you.
Become the woman Battler desires.

I will give you the blonde hair he desires.
I will give you the blue eyes he desires.
I will give you the new personality he desires.
And... In place of me, love him.
And if possible, be loved by him.

I can no longer love him.
The feelings I could not obtain...the feelings I could not bear...please obtain them.

From this day forward, you are no longer the phantom of Rokkenjima who only plays tricks.
From this day forward, you are the ruler of Rokkenjima, and the one who waits for him to return until he fulfills his promise.

From this day forward, you will inherit that in my place.
Thus, from this day forward, you are no longer me.

I will push all of my suffering on to you... Please forgive me for being the only one to become happy.

From this day forward, you have the qualifications to detest everything.
You are the Golden Witch, Beatrice.

And someday.
Destroy everything, revive everything.
...Bless all lovers.

At that time.
...For both you and I to find happiness together...I will be wishing for from the bottom of my heart.

From this day on, you are not me.
From this day on, I am not you.
We will divide one soul, and share.
That naturally won't fill up one soul, but. (? not 100% sure about this line)
Surely it will allow (us/you/me? no subject defined) to see more dreams than a person.
May we be blessed...
My cute Beatrice...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885007
Why don't you start using the witch-hunt version of this

-Beatrice.

Listen.

I am giving you my love for Ushiromiya Battler.
You must become the kind of woman Battler likes.

Take the golden hair he likes.
Take the blue eyes he likes.
Take the personality that matches his.

And then, ......you must love him in my place.
And then, if possible, you must be loved by him.

I......can no longer love him.

Please, take my feelings that went unfulfilled, ......my feelings that I couldn't hold back, ......and make my wish come true.

From this day forward, you are no longer the Rokkenjima ghost that lives only to play pranks.

From this day forward, you will become the master of this island and wait for the day that he comes to fulfill his promise.

From this day forward, you will do this in my place.
So, from this day forward, you will no longer be me.

Please forgive me for pushing all my worries onto you, ...while I alone try to find happiness.

From this day forward, you hate the right to hate everything.
From this day forward, you are the Golden Witch, Beatrice.

And, one day...

You will destroy everything, revive everything.
.....You will bring blessings to all lovers.

When that happens...

......I pray that you and I......will both succeed in finding happiness.

From this day forward, you will no longer be me.
From this day forward, I will no longer be you.
The two of us will split apart a single soul and share it.
And though, of course, neither of us will possess a complete soul...
I'm sure our dreams will be more numerous than those of humans.

Let us be blessed......

My dear...Beatrice...

No one will be able to see your form.
However, I alone can see you.
And if you are loved by many people...
I'm sure that everyone will be able to see you someday.

With love, they will be able to see us......

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885007
The hell? I don't remember reading this.

[Anonymous No.]

>From this day forward, you are no longer the phantom of Rokkenjima who only plays tricks.
From this day forward, you are the ruler of Rokkenjima, and the one who waits for him to return until he fulfills his promise.

This lines always bothers me

Doesn't this mean Shannon was the ruler of the night, and she passed that to Beatrice?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885018
it's after Shanon and Kanon's duel at the love trial, after Shanon shot him

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885030
Makes sense. I ctrl'd through most of the trial crap.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885041

And you wonder why many on /jp/ don't get Umineko plot

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885018
>>5885041
>>5885078
Typical ShkShitter samefagging.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885078
Blame Ryukishi. I would have been reading if I knew he would suddenly point something important in an otherwise disregardable scene. That would be like putting a Kyrie backstory all of the sudden in those episode 4 Ange scenes.
>>5885084
I'm not a shkanonfag and that guy isn't me, so no.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884407

I hate how people are now dismissing EP 3-6 as "fake" stories because of Featherine. A troll the level of her could easily have written down the events that happened and presented them as her own.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885139
Except that magic and witches don't exist, so she can't possibly observe and write them down. But she can read two bottle stories (ep1-2), find the core of the truth and make her own versions of events, characters' back story and some of their intentions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885177
More like reach the truth and therefore accurately represent these things.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885188
She can't possibly know for sure all the truth just from the 2 episodes. She must invent some interpretations that don't contradict the core of the truth she has found.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885102

So your saying the whole Love trial was 'disregardable'? it's like saying 75% of EP6 is disregardable.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885233
Well in terms of the gameboard, obviously yes. I realized this when there were several extensive scenes about X killing Y when really they were all fake deaths. The trial was about as significant as Beato vs Virgilia in episode 3. Excuse me if I want to get past the fantasy quickly so I can focus on the mystery.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885177
>Except that magic and witches don't exist

Meta world =/= Magic

>>5885233

I'd say there are some clues in what Shannon and Kanon said (pieces can't act against their nature, after all), but yes, overall it's just bullshit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885353
You really think an arc this close to the end would contain that much bullshit? It even says that EP6 is a confession.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885210


R07 said you can find the answer with ep 1 and 2. And it's intend she even knows the ending.

Beside, is Toya Hachijo Featherine? Or is Featherine Toya Hachijo?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885102
I blame your ADHD.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885379
>You really think an arc this close to the end would contain that much bullshit? It even says that EP6 is a confession.

Ep V was at least 80% bullshit 34 was pulling in order to make Battler the new GM

And it's not like ep VI doesn't contain confessions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885405
Then you're disregarding what Ryukishi said. He said that you should treat everything after EP5 as part of the answer and that EP6 verges on being answers.

I think you're seriously in denial.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885405
>Ep V was at least 80% bullshit 34 was pulling in order to make Battler the new GM

No it wasn't. And you thinking Lambda wanted Battler to become the new GM is nothing more than your own theory.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885427
Same guy who said Erika is a good girl and you believe him? Episode 6 is a huge troll.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885437
D E N I A L

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885427


He also said ep V contained a huge trap and dirty trick.

Oh well, enjoy not thinking and your Shkannon bullshit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885445
And said trap was Battler seeing Shannon and Kanon in the same room.

EP5: You think Shkanon is right? lol no *trap*
EP6: I was just playing. It is right.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885445
This. Someone in another thread pointed out something suspicious about Rosa's luggage which is far more of a clue than anything Shkanonfags came up with in the last few months. But it seems like a pro-Shkanon mod deleted the thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>And said trap was Battler seeing Shannon and Kanon in the same room.

Not really.
Also, Battler's pov didn't even matter in ep V.

The trap was obvious the man from 19 years ago. 34 used him to give Battler an opening in the endgame. Natsuhi killed the baby, but he didn't survive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885437
Prepare for massive butthurt for EP7. Because it's only going to prove that EP6 wasn't a troll.

You're naive to think Ryukishi07 would still be pulling such large red herrings if he wanted fans to solve the mystery. Umineko's solution isn't going to be something that comes out of nowhere. It's going to be something that many fans predicted.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885471
>Natsuhi killed the baby
I think you mean Rosa.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885460
>This. Someone in another thread pointed out something suspicious about Rosa's luggage which is far more of a clue than anything Shkanonfags came up with in the last few months

Personally, i still believe the "confessions" in ep VI referrer to Kyrie and Rosa dialogs before their "dead"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885479
>Prepare for massive butthurt for EP7

I'm almost fearing next week sunday when /jp/ will be bombarded with people raging at the 'awnser' vs people laughing and calling people 'retards' for deniying/supporting *insert popular theory*

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885490

Rosa?
Why? not that i don't suspect Rosa

[Anonymous No.]

Idiots that still deny shkanon are the type of people Ryukishi07 hates. He goes out of his way to make it as obvious as possible and they still argue against it.

It's literally like arguing that red truth can't be trusted.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885492

Those were probably the few things I liked in the love trail. Getting to know more about Rosa's husband and also knowing more about Kyrie's relationship with Rudolph in the past along with Asumu. Now I'm hoping we get to know more about Kyrie herself in EP7

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885509
You should be able to solve this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885513
Rika doesn't have knowledge of other worlds. That's too obvious and too stupid. Higurashi doesn't have any magic elements. Tsumihoroboshi was just trolling us. Rika is a crazy little girl helping the culprit

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885513

Actually, it's the other way around.

R07 hates who stopped thiking, i.e. Shkannonfags

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885471
I truly and honestly think that you can forget about the other Battler, but Natsuhi's son is real.
1)Jessica - no, Natsuhi objectively, physically gave birth to her in one of the TIPS.
2)George - no, Eva wouldn't let Kinzo piss on her head.
3)Battler - strongly implied in the E5 finale with the "It was all useless after all" // "BAWWWW" finishing lines. But he'd have to get to know about it in during the conference.
4) Shannon or Kanon - requies them to lie about their age to Natsuhi, and since Shannon is on the island for some years... oh, wait. She is on the island for at least four years, that means she was a working servant there since she was twelve... shit.

captha: chap thaeorge

[Anonymous No.]

What if...EVERYONE has been lieing, this entire time?

Nothing was true, everything was false. "Colored Truth" was just a way of making you think it was true, to fool you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885525
She tried to kill Shion in Meakashi so that's proof that she's crazy and evil. The fact that she committed suicide also proves that she killed herself in the other arcs.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885534

Making Umineko a gigantic waste of time to solve

[Anonymous No.]

Ep6 for dummies.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885526
The one who's stopped thinking is you. Shkanon generates a lot of discussion and the more we discover, the more we're convinced that it's right. You're too busy trying to disprove the obvious to do any thinking.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885534
That would be so epic win.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885547

Oh really?


"Shannon and Kanon personalities were killed, Battler's promised Beato a white pony but he didn't come back. Also rape. Everyone go home!"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885557
Good job proving that you don't know much about the theory. It explains why you're against it.

[Anonymous No.]

Goddamn.. to think Ryukishi07 would devote the entire episode to a red herring next to the final one.

How fucking stupid are you

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885573

Who said Episode 7 is the last episode? We still might get a ep8

[Anonymous No.]

Goddamn.. to think Ryukishi07 would slam in your face the killer for the episode next to the final one.


How fucking stupid are you

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885534
so why Battler couldn't tell he's Asumu's son if red truth isn't effective?
but there's a point,after all, Erika could say she's the detective and break Knox's rules that are in red too (she killed and then said she's the detective)
and that's just an exemple

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885513
brotip: In one of the interwiews, Ryukushi is like "I can't believe how easily people accepted red, I'd almost think they'd protest more, I mean, like, a fricking witch tells you to believe in her in order to make yourself more certain in not believing her xD"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885573

It's his own damn fault for making such a small closed room. He needs to pad it up a bit.

[Anonymous No.]

>but there's a point,after all, Erika could say she's the detective and break Knox's rules that are in red too (she killed and then said she's the detective)

There are various level of red text

Also, piece Erika didn't have the detective authority, but Meta-Erika still "the detective"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885592

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885594
"Brotip": no he didn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885054
>Sometimes they become witches and treat demons as butlers

RYUKISHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885606

Oh you

[Anonymous No.]

Why should I care about what R07 hates or not? You people give him too much credit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885615

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885615
1. Tsumihoroboshi isn't next to the final one.
2. Only an idiot would be deceived by that line. It was painfully obvious Takano was the culprit. The only argument against it was "it's too obvious so it can't be right"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885015
>>5885007
Did this really come up in episode 6?
I'm really not the type to skip anything and I figure that I would remember something important like this.

Or maybe I really do just have that shitty of memory.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885611
Yes, he did. At one point, the interwiever says that the players have only the red truth to believe, and he directly trolls the interwiewer by saying that there is no reason to believe red whatsoever.

And red is tricky as hell even without that. For more reference, see "what is called a corpse in red can be alive"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885625
>The only argument against it was "it's too obvious so it can't be right"
Sounds familiar.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885625

It's not Tsumihoroboshi, it's>>5885606

>>5885625
>2. Only an idiot would be deceived by that line. It was painfully obvious Takano was the culprit. The only argument against it was "it's too obvious so it can't be right"

True, but it still shows you that R07 didn't sold his culprit so easily.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885635
I have a list of every interview with him. He never said that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885635
>Yes, he did. At one point, the interwiever says that the players have only the red truth to believe, and he directly trolls the interwiewer by saying that there is no reason to believe red whatsoever.
No he didn't.
>And red is tricky as hell even without that. For more reference, see "what is called a corpse in red can be alive"
No, someone can claim to see a corpse when they saw something other than a corpse. That is what Erika was fooled by. A deceptive editing of that episode 5 scene to support Jessitrice is the only reason people believe this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885637
If that's Minagoroshi then goes even more against your point. Minagoroshi shows her killing everybody and it's the truth. Matsuribayashi doesn't go back and show something else. He literally answered who is the culprit before the final arc. Minagoroshi also reveals and explains Hinamizawa Syndrome. That wasn't a red herring either.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885625
E6 also isn't next to the final one.

Also, Minagoroshi is in fact quite a clusterfuck - not at all as straightened out as it makes itself seem - and the final end after it is Saigoroshi, where it is clear that it was all, in fact, a lot more complicated, but you are purposefully given little to no clues an you have basically no idea about what the fuck is going on there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885654
>If that's Minagoroshi then goes even more against your point. Minagoroshi shows her killing everybody and it's the truth. Matsuribayashi doesn't go back and show something else. He literally answered who is the culprit before the final arc. Minagoroshi also reveals and explains Hinamizawa Syndrome. That wasn't a red herring either.

Yes, that's the arc before the final arc.
Ep VI isn't.

[Anonymous No.]

"Are you really so stupid to believe in the red text that a FUCKING EVIL WITCH told you was true?"
-Reader with no love

What R07 says is more like "Trust in the red truth = love for the author. Without that trust, there is no way the rules can be accepted so there is no way the game can be played"

[Anonymous No.]

Why is Higurashi brought up in every thread even though R07 said Umineko would be harder to solve for people who read Higurashi?

[Anonymous No.]

ShKanontrice makes sense when you look at every episodes.
It's not something that was introduced simply for episode 6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885665
Tsumihoroboshi revealed that Rika has knowledge from multiple worlds and that Keiichi was crazy in Onikakushi. It also strongly hints that there's a disease making people go crazy. Too much of a coincidence that Rena went through the exact same thing Keiichi did in Onikakushi. All the alien BS was disproved in the episode itself.

Tsumihoroboshi was the 6th arc and most of it contained answers. It wasn't a giant red herring like you believe EP6 to be.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885384
So how does it contradict my statement?
>Beside, is Toya Hachijo Featherine? Or is Featherine Toya Hachijo?
This question clearly shows that you don't understand shit, congratulations.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885674
>Shkanon makes sense when you twist your interpretation of previous episodes to fit in with it
Fixed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885686
Shaknon has existed since EP4 you know. You talk like EP6 was its creation when it wasn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>there will definitely be an episode 8, Umineko will definitely be just like Higurashi, Higurashi didn't reveal the answer in episode 6, therefore Umineko didn't reveal the answer in episode 6 and it was a huge red herring and Jessica is Beatrice
Good argument.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885694
"Shkanon" is an obsolete term and shouldn't be used before. Except for the small party of people or maybe one guy who accepts Shkanon but for some reason rejects Shkanontrice, it's irrelevant. The complete product is Shkanontrice, and episode 6 created that theory.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885703
>"Shkanon" is an obsolete term and shouldn't be used before.
I mean shouldn't be used anymore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885694
ShKanon as a theory existed since the first episode and was pretty prominent in the second episode.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885649
Did you actually read that scene? The whole final trial? The argument that Dlanor used against Battler later, concerning observers may thought to be a be a part of it, but it contributes nothing to it past saying "yes, red can be effectively used that way". The fact remains, Erika says "Those corpses were witnessed by a large number of people" in red concerning bodies of people, who were in fact not dead at all. I guess you can ignore Ronove's later response because Erika has a long rant and he has to answer one point after another, but there is nothing else in the rant that his statement would apply to.

You can never solve this while thinking negatively, my fellow disputer.

>>5885636
No, I remember that most people thought that Takano killed Tomitake, but Sonozaki did the rest. Not everyone, but most did. Also there were some pretty popular Satoshi theories, that equal to the stuff that Kyrie is causing in the story.

[Anonymous No.]

for those who was too lazy to read the "-Beatrice. Listen." part.

[Anonymous No.]

Gold truth is something that everybody believes in.

If everybody believes it, that makes it true. The theme of Umineko's magic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885734
See >>5885015

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885740
People don't believe sleight of hand is magic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885743
lol, I know, but people was wondering here if that was a fake.
I put the 1st version because I couldn't find WH version, now I just took screenshots of that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885750
"everybody" is referring to everybody present not everybody in the whole world.

If there's 2 people in the room and those 2 people believe the same thing, you can say it in gold.

[Anonymous No.]

The detective with an objective viewpoint may not mistake anyone or anything for Kinzo. Therefore, the minute a character says they saw Kinzo, it becomes falsehood. Therefore, Battler never saw Kinzo in that study. Therefore, there is no reason to believe he saw the shadow at all, and definitely not any reason to assume he saw a shadow that was definitely a person.

What do you think, everyone?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885852

see, I've been working on the assumption that since "Ushiromiya Kinzo cannot be mistaken by sight", that means any time Battler thinks he's seen him he's been looking at his actual corpse.

[Anonymous No.]

As you can see, the problem word is 'witnessed' not 'corpse'. Therefore, if you are relying on an unreliable witness for your red, it's possible for the red to work in such a way. If your red is simply "There was a corpse", then it's impossible to falsify. This can explain the discrepancy in the red, where "the corpse of Jessica" and "Jessica's corpse" which are phrased the same way in the original Japanese are not both stated in red. It's because of the context.
>When Jessica's corpse was discovered
The problem word is 'discovered'. It is only using 'when Jessica's corpse was discovered' as a designation of time for the following red, it doesn't confirm that she is dead. It only assigns an event that name. The more trustworthy red follows:
>only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room [Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885865
But that too is illogical. Would you really look at a year old+ corpse and think "yep, that's Kinzo"? Especially if it was turned the other way?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885865
or that was a flashback, or that he's not sane at this point

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885912

Kinzo's corpse has been embalmed by Nanjo, that's the reason the study smells of chemicals.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885865
But battler saw gramps when he solved the riddle.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885937

obviously the "thinking you see Kinzo means you saw his corpse" only applies for Battler's objective viewpoint, and his viewpoint was subjective there.

[Anonymous No.]

Why would Kinzo's corpse be kept in the study? It would make more sense for Kinzo's corpse to be long since disposed of, or at least hidden somewhere.

[Anonymous of Germany !WvzhzxDiIQ No.]

We were just talking about this in the other thread, but when Battler saw "Kinzo's back" at the end of ep2 I'm pretty certain he saw his corpse being made to sit in the chair.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885960
>Why would Kinzo's corpse be kept in the study? It would make more sense for Kinzo's corpse to be long since disposed of

while you are correct, that is obviously not the case, or Krauss and Natsuhi would not be burning it in several episodes..

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885990
in episode one people say the Rudolf and Krauss are very like Kinzo by looks, so if they took even Rudolf or Krauss's corpse, put Kinzo's clothes and wig for exemple, if Battler can see only his back he might mistake.

also he was drunk, and Beato(?) told genji to give him more wine, to make him more drunk so he would believe (maybe he stripped because when you drink alcohol it's getting hotter, and Beato just put a chain on his neck while he was really drunk)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885898
>"the corpse of Jessica" and "Jessica's corpse" which are phrased the same way in the original Japanese
Except they aren't.

When Jessica's corpse was discovered
*朱志香の死体発見時、*
the corpse of Jessica is also included
死体の*朱志香ももちろん含む*

[Anonymous No.]

>>5886074
no, it's like "the golden land" and "land of gold"
it is different.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885898
Try to think about this as a clue to how the red works. She can call it a corpse "by the way" when she is specifying the time, but at the moment when she is counting people in the room, Jessica is included too, even though in case she was dead, she technically 'would not exist' in the room just like Kinzo doesn't exist on the island(and presumably, Kanon does not exist inside the closet).

Also, this seems like an unusual dirty move from Beato, which goes quite a bit against the love thingy - just like wordplays around "everyone recognized the new Kinzo". The only way this counts as love would be a Kanzo implication, making it about the only Kanzo foreshadowing in the game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5886148
Kanzo has a lot of foreshadowing, but it's just not some one-liners, the ones shkannonfags like to post. It's more about complex story details from which you can deduce it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5886216
Seriously?
I'd like to see some of this foreshadowing, because I've never noticed anything significant.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5886270
How about you think about it yourself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5886216
>Kanzo has a lot of foreshadowing

I bet its just as good as the forshadowing of Shkanon that people claim

[Anonymous No.]

>>5886633

Well, there was Shkannon foreshadowing, tons of it

[Anonymous No.]

>>5886675
how the hell does that implies Shkannon?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5884299
A lot of people believe it. They're retarded.
>>5884260
>>quite hated thanks to Episode 6

>>thanks to Episode 6

Are we even reading the same novel? Hated since ep6? Since when?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887004
No body equal Shkanon. Don't even try to understand here. I could MAYBE accept the mirror or something like that, and even this would be really out of place given the context, but here, anything is supposed to support Shkanon. Even if it could mean a thousand of other things.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887004
>>5887033
Are you retarded?
Read the second and third paragraphs.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885437
SAmeguy who also said that he will not give a clear answer. Many times. Many, many times.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887061
Of course. And we don't care if it actually makes sense in ep2 even without Shkanon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885513
... Read ep6 again. Seriously. Read the Featherine's part in ep6 again before saying this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5885611
He did. In the beginning. In fact, he was saying that believing the red is too much, and, tl;dr, that we should believe Beato, not the red.

[Anonymous No.]

You know why ShKanontrice is so popular?
Because it's the one theory that make sense story wise, like it or not.

You guys who keep trying to deny it so obsessively are retarded, you don't even try to think for yourself about the story that Umineko is trying to tell.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5886148
Why are you telling me to think about it when that's exactly what I was saying? She can be called a corpse when it's just an assignment of time, but when the sentence is very clear and is simply stating that fact, she cannot be called a corpse. According to my interpretation, Jessica wasn't dead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5886148
Kinzo doesn't exist because he isn't one of the piece, not because he "died".
Otherwise they couldn't count people at the end of episode 6 since most of them died.

Kanon doesn't exist because he shares a piece with Shannon (and Beatrice), so only one can be active at a time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887126
>>sense storywise.

Raep, kill because she is mad (because it cannot be for a revenge), crazy, and go home?
Sure.
And let's don't even talk about personnality switching at will just in order to fit with the red.

And I still like the "retarded" part. Looks like even if you are okay with Shkannontrice, you don't have the right to think about anything else.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887203
I don't care if you think it's stupid.
A VERY LARGE part of Umineko has been about this, this is the story of Umineko.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887180
But in the other way, Battler wented to exclude Kinzo from the everyone in ep6, so if he doesn't exist at all as a piece, it is strange

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887216
Erika did, and it was just a matter of fact.
"Oh yeah Kinzo is dead so he is excluded, yeah that's right"

It was just for the most oblivious readers, to make sure they wouldn't make crack theories using Kinzo.
Didn't work that much I guess since some idiots are still trying to use him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887213
And that's not what I could call "sense storywise".
Again, it is the story of umineko for you. Even if Shkannon was confirmed, everything else are only hypotheses.Especialy the rape which doesn't make sense chronologically.

And no, it's not the story of umineko. It doesn't even use a quarter of this story, and put a "lol love revenge against the red" instead..

[Anonymous No.]

I don't get something about Shkannon

Didn't Battler say everyone else was inside the other room?

How could he say that if Kanon was inside Shannon/in the other room

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887233
>>they wouldn't make crack theories using Kinzo.

Actually, it have the opposite effect, and it is really quite obvious, since you have a kinzo running in the wild now. Not caring about it would have been a better move to stop theories, in fact, here it looks like a giant notice. So if it was not intended, Ryukishi is really retarded.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887248
Personnalities are supposed to be inactives when not used, and so don't count. Don't ask me, I'm not supporting Shkannontrice anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887276
Pretty sure R07 thought his episode filled with Shkanontrice would get the point across.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887276
>>5887233

There is a lot of unexplained shit about Kinzo, of course people use him

Probably, even if Shkannon isn't true, he still have a role in the twins birth

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887288

Yes, but Kanon still.. "alive".
Even if inactive he still exist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887347
No, he's supposed no to. To me it is retarded, because he still exist in other peoples mind. But it is necessary for Shkannon to work.
>>5887332
I seriously hope it, damn. It was a good character, not enough screentime.

[Anonymous No.]

>Idiots get off track and start believing in garbage like DID Meidos
>Keikaku doori

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887360
>No, he's supposed no to. To me it is retarded, because he still exist in other peoples mind. But it is necessary for Shkannon to work.

It also retarded because no one questioned where the fuck Kanon go

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887365
Actually it would be pretty funny if it was something like that, and if even characters in the story, like Bern, would make this error

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887360
Kinzo also exist in people mind you know.

Just look at the analogy of the piece that can be promoted at the end of episode 6, it's not rocket science.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887365
This is the truth
see >>5887261

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887411
People just don't care about the gameboard having even A TINY BIT of sense right now...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887365
>My face when Kyrie will reveal the biggest trollface ever

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887425
And that's also why I hate this "exist".
And if you take the example of some anon before, if not existing = not existing as a piece, it also doesn't make sense, Kanon still exist as a available piece here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887332
Kinzo set us up the bomb theory.
To return everything he gained to Beatrice in the most efficient way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887461
Kanon isn't available as a piece.
He SHARES a piece with Shannon and Beatrice, don't tell me you missed the very obvious analogy at the end of the episode.

ShKanontrice is a piece that can become a queen, knight or king depending on the circumstance.
But it's still only one piece, it's normal that it only count for one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887476
>Kinzo set us up the bomb theory.
You saying he set up small timed bombs? that would explain the Halloween party...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887478
Actually what that means is Beatrice can be controlled by Kyrie(pawn), she can go against Kyrie(knight), she can replace Kyrie as the culprit(queen) and she herself is the key to the game (king)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887478


This sounds retarded

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887360
>No, he's supposed no to. To me it is retarded, because he still exist in other peoples mind. But it is necessary for Shkannon to work.

But, even if dead, he still had to be included or Battler would have to say it.. In order to say "everyone else" Battler had to say Kinzo wasn't included.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887478
Wel, this way, it could fit, but I still don't agree with the "don't exist", for Kinzo and Kanon, Kanon being even worst because of the end of the game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5887533
As a counter, Battler wanted to exclude Kinzo but it was not in red. But yes, it would be strange. I always took this "exist" or not as "x character in the story", not "X body", anyway, so

[Anonymous No.]

Still waiting for a theory which say that "everyone can be together in the golden land" because golden land = in Shkannon's head, and (s)he will create another personnality for each dead people.
If you are going on the DID way, do it properly and completely.

[Anonymous No.]

Just got done with the trolling in Episode 3. You get confused when they say no more than 18, and count up that they are all dead (15), followed by the 3 remaining ones did not kill the last victim (and it was a fourth that killed him).

Seems like they just plain shoved the solution in your throat though about who was one of the culprits. Unless of course I'm supposed to think the culprits are the same in all the games.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5888248
Totally unrelated, but it must be really annoying to post in a thread where everyone is already at ep6.

To me,the cilprits are not the same, mainly because of a TIPS, Bern's letter. But to most of the people, yes, they are.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5888111

I actually thought about it once..