/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

I'm trying to learn Japanese with Heisig's books but I have no clue how to learn the pronunciations along with the kanji. What can I do about that?

[Anonymous No.]

Meido, meido, I call upon thee!
fr

[Hype-Moon No.]

Watch anime.
Watch J-drama.


Hear Japanese people in general.

[Anonymous No.]

Deconstructing!

[Anonymous No.]

Learning all the pronunciations along with the kanji kind of defeats the purpose of Heisig's method, doesn't it?

[Anonymous No.]

>Heisig
Let me give you an example why Heisig is bad and why you will never learn Japanese.

>地球は、太陽系にある惑星の1つで、太陽から3番目に近い
To me, or anyone who learned their Japanese properly this means
"The Earth is a planet in the solar system, the third closest to the sun"

Heisigfags will instead read this as
"Earth ball ha thick yang system ni a ru perplexity star no 1 tsu de,
thick yang ka ra 3 turn eye ni close i"

Enjoy failing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5862737
Heisig doesn't say you shouldn't learn compounds, it just says you have to learn the kanji first. What program do you use?

[Pestilence !!vKqWKxLMglQ No.]

even the bot agrees that heisig sucks

[Anonymous No.]

>>5862451
>Heisig
Oh Boy, here we go again!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5862737
The reason Heisig is bad is because you expect it to make you fluent in Japanese rather than make learning to recognize and write kanji easier?

[Anonymous No.]

Here we go again, people making up shit on what the Heisig method does and doesn't do. I hope you faggots are trolls.

[&ponpo& No.]

>>5862837
I wish to bathe in a mug with Aria.

[Anonymous No.]

Heisig is shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>Heisig
I swear, the guy must've written these books with the sole intent of trolling.

[Anonymous No.]

1) Look up kanji on any one of various sites
2) Put the onyomi in your SRS program along with the kanji
3) Now you can learn the readings as you do RTK and not be a faggot.

[Anonymous No.]

Stop defending Heisig for fuck's sake. There's no point. People who are shit-talking against a method without even trying it don't deserve being enlightened about how 漢字 work.
Any on-lookers who WOULD be worth your time will try stuff themselves regardless.
If less worthless assholes use it, it just means that those people who are willing to think and try for themselves get to look even better compared to said assholes.

[Pestilence !!vKqWKxLMglQ No.]

Why Heisig sucks?

1.You waste time memorizing silly mnemonics.

2. You waste time remembering kanji "primitives" that are completely made up.

3. All the repetition you do could have been better spent repeating vocabulary instead.

4. Heisig's order of learning kanji is stupid. You learn difficult ones too fast, and save needed ones for last.

5. The best way to learn Japanese kanji is to use
them in context. So learn lots of words and they will come to you.

6. Japanese is better learned studying all aspects concurrently. Focusing on one bit (kanji meanings only and not even readings, seriously?) will automatically lead to neglect of the rest. Grammar, conversation, reading, writing, kanji etc. all hangs together. I bet Heisig users feel accomplished that they skimmed though 200 kanji and "learned" them.

7. Silly stories in your head is a waste of effort in learning Japanese when you don't even learn readings.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5862973

Sitting through several months of a useless gimmick program with the expressed of intention of teaching nothing of use to understanding the actual Japanese language in order gain footing in future Internet arguments would be the height of stupidity, as is suggesting that. Heisig teaches useless rote memorization of parts of words that don't have a semantic value in themselves in the actual language. You don't need don't throw money at the dipshit who wrote these books and spend months of your life to discover that's retarded, and if you do, then you are.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5862973

Sitting through several months of a useless gimmick program with the expressed of intention of teaching nothing of use to understanding the actual Japanese language in order gain footing in future Internet arguments would be the height of stupidity, as is suggesting that. Heisig teaches useless rote memorization of parts of words that don't have a semantic value in themselves in the actual language. You don't need to throw money at the dipshit who wrote these books and spend months of your life to discover that's retarded, and if you do, then you are.

[Anonymous No.]

http://nihongo.3yen.com/2008-01-31/final-thoughts-on-remembering-the-kanji/

Captcha: reasoned well

[Anonymous No.]

Learning the kanji individually gives you a leg up on learning compounds. Learning vocabulary is a HUGE task that you'll be doing the whole time you're learning japanese. It's smart to do whatever you can to prepare yourself for this and make it easier.

As for Heisig: No one said you couldn't learn readings while you do it. No one said you couldn't study grammar or anything else while you do it. You guys are treating the method like it's some onestop guide to learning Japanese, when it's just one part.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5863030
I said "give a try," not "go all the way through to Character #3000." I tried both Heisig and brute force when I started out, and stuck with the one that was better.

Basically what you're saying is, going through Heisig's free sample of the first 300(?) characters in a week is retarded, while throwing hundreds/thousands of dollars at classes to learn the ひらがな and カタカナ in 6-12 months is obviously not.
That's why I said it's better for society if people like you keep using exactly those inferior methods you advocate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5863186
>throwing hundreds/thousands of dollars at classes to learn the ひらがな and カタカナ in 6-12 months is obviously not.

I can see you're now inventing charactatures of the people who disagree with you to suit your warped alternate reality where your aren't the most retarded person in this thread for attempting to learn several thousand kanji in advance of the actual language. I self-study like most everyone else in /jp/, and no, learning kana does not take six months to a year unless you've utterly distracted yourself with a chasing a red herring of fully learning the morphological roots of every Chinese-originated word in the entire language before actually picking up anything substantial.

>>5863158
>It's smart to do whatever you can to prepare yourself for this and make it easier.

Attempting to learn them all upfront belabors the process unaturally and at best only shifts the burden around. You aren't intrinsically learning any more or less by changing the order of doing so, but rote memorization of large quantities of ideas that don't have any immediate application usually turns out to be the very worst way to try to learn anything.

Heisig isn't being criticized for not being a one-stop shop for learning Japanese, it's being criticized for being a one-stop shop for learning something absolutely tangential and secondary to picking up the actual language.

[Anonymous No.]

He didn't ask if you like Remembering The Kanji. It's a good book for learning to write kanji. These guys are just lazy. Nothing optimizes your learning of Japanese for time or "brain clutter".

The audio CDs, or MP3s of Pimsleur Japanese are good listening practice. You'll learn some more Japanese too, but the primary benefit is listening practice.

Get JWpce, a free dictionary program for Windows. Get the free Japanese dictionary Edict and the kanji dictionary Kanjidict for it.

After a while you'll need a pocket PC or Windows Mobile cellphone, the dictionary program Ebpocket, and Edict for it. This is because you'll need to be able to write a kanji to look it up.

Take a Japanese class to supplement your learning.

No matter how much anime and Japanese music you listen to, they won't teach you anything new. They may be able to help you get used to the sound and rhythm of Japanese speech and that's all.

A few Japanese learning programs do help however. Get "Let's Learn Japanese" and "NHK Japanese".

Read "Making Sense of Japanese Grammar" and "A Dictionary of Japanese Grammar".

http://archive.easymodo.net/cgi-board.pl/jp/thread/5381484

[Anonymous No.]

>>5863355
If you want to read Japanese, you have to know kanji. Criticize all you want, but Heisig is actually helping me to remember the kanji.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5863398

You don't need to know all of them at once, and learning Kanji isn't an end unto itself relative to actually understanding or pronouncing vocabulary.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5863355
>learning kana does not take six months to a year
I've talked to several people who study Japanese in classes, and they really did need that much time for them. Classes are that slow.
Me, I've learned them in 1 or 2 weeks back then, using brute force because I wasn't actually studying Japanese yet, just dicking around on Wikipedia when I was bored (I've learned Cyrillic and Arabic the same way). Makes me wish I had known about Heisig's book on them back then, I could've learned those fuckers in 1 or 2 days with the same daily time investment.

>attempting to learn several thousand kanji
I'm not "attempting" that, I already did that. And have been spending several hours per day reading Japanese ever since.

>You don't need to know all of them at once
you will never experience the joy of looking at an untranslated vn for the first time and immediately understanding more than half of the text.jpg

[Anonymous No.]

>>5863533
>I'm not "attempting" that, I already did that. And have been spending several hours per day reading Japanese ever since.
>several thousands
Sure, I bet you don't even know 1/5 of the readings for them.

>you will never experience the joy of looking at an untranslated vn for the first time and immediately understanding more than half of the text.jpg
So you know what they roughly mean going by Heisig's mostly wrong keywords, but you can't even read them, where's the satisfactory in that?

[Anonymous No.]

Enjoy your Catdog grammar dick grammar butt grammar in heat grammar pooper desu ne.

Hurrrr heisig

[Anonymous No.]

>>5863533
My Japanese class covered the kana in a week. The people you know most go to fucking terrible schools.

[Anonymous No.]

epic thread xD

[Anonymous No.]

>>5863618

That's awesome

[Anonymous No.]

>>5862930
You will never bathe in a mug with Aria because Witches don't exist!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5863355

By "learning them all upfront" you mean over several months while you learn other things? That's not belaboring anything.

[Anonymous No.]

>I bet you don't even know 1/5 of the readings for them
I really wish we were having this discussion IRL. I'd totally take you by your word on that bet and let you put your money where your mouth is.
>where's the satisfactory in that?
In knowing what it says, perhaps? I've learned Japanese to absorb information written in it, not to show off by reading porn games to other people out loud. I look up those words I care about.
I give it to you though that on the train and so on, where I had no dictionary, I used to read nothing but Manga with complete 振り仮名 added to them. (Vinland Saga was/is a favorite of mine)
If you don't see how the focus on semantics in Chinese/Japanese writing is absolutely awesome, why are you learning it in the first place?

>>5863616
>My Japanese class covered the kana in a week
That's comparable to self-study I guess, but as I said, that still sucks compare to one evening. I didn't spend any money on those charts I found through Wikipedia, so it's not a big loss other than the time. But if I had actually paid for that stuff in both money and time when so much better materials are available, man I'd be PISSED.

[Anonymous No.]

heisig sucks

[Anonymous No.]

> Heisig
> Trolling book
Yup, that's obviously /jp/ related then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5863816
Our class learned more than just kana during that week, so I don't see it as a problem at all (though I had already taught myself the kana before taking the class).

[Anonymous No.]

People who say Heisig are bad really didn't understand it in the first place.

Reading and writing are two different skills. Heisig teaches the later extremely quickly. No other system can let you learn 2k Kanji in less than a month.

When I learned Japanese I used Heisig for Kanji and just "brute" memorized the kana. When it came time to actually write shit out I had a much easier time writing 2k kana than just the handful of kana.

If you never plan on actually writing the kanji with a pencil/pen/brush then ignore heisig, your IME will remember everything for you. If you ever plan on actually writing Kanji however it's indispensable.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5863969
> Heising
> for writing Kanji however it's indispensable.
Heising is not "indispensable".
There are TONS of books/programs or whatever thing you want to learn how to write kanji.
The issue is not which is the best way, but if the one who's actually trying to learn is or isn't a fucking lazy fag.

[Anonymous No.]

the biggest gripe i have with heisig fags is that they think heisig is the superior method of learning above everything and no other methods should come close

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864015

What are these other methods you're referring to?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864065
all of them

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864072

I was asking for names of books or websites.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864085
Are you trying to imply that there aren't other methods? Look up anything at all, kanjidicks or whatever you want. I use Heisig and I love it but it's completely true that people who use Heisig (and also AJATT) are incredibly preachy, no matter how effective it is or isn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864094

As for kanjidamage, it's the same method as Heisig except in a different order. Any other methods i'm unaware of?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864098
Except he teaches the readings and encourages tackling on with jukugo as fast as you can, it's a LOT different actually. Just look at this smug "Nukemarine"

http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=2813

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864118

It still amounts to the same thing. Mnemonics + building upon radicals to create different kanji. That is the heisig method.
And i know all about the smug heisig people on that site. I'm not defending RTK, i just want to hear about these other methods you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864118
>If the profanity isn't adding something to the quality, why is it in there?
>Aside from being a source of stories, which this site also has an abundance of, I'm not quite sure what your book will offer.
>"I teach you the kanji real good" - It's an intellectual turn-off.

>But, I don't like the "just learn enough to get by" attitude, and it seems to have been developed for just those type of people.
For what kind of people is Heisig's books developed then?

[Anonymous No.]

Yo guys, anyone have some suggestions for good raw manga to read? I've got Yotsuba but I'd like something with a bigger vocab radius.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864136
How is it the same thing when it actually teaches readings and compounds? That's a huge fucking difference. And I wonder if there's a kanji method that doesn't use radicals because it would be really stupid to ignore them. So basically you think they're the same because they both use mnemonics.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864179
furigana only? there are plenty, negima or high school of the dead for example

[Mature Related !K/L9IJgMJY No.]

>>5864179
ranma 1/2

also kanji are obsolete, you don't need to learn them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864007
>Heising is not "indispensable".
Yes it is. It's the quickest and highest retention way of doing so.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864217

Because those things are extraneous to the method. You could just as easily go through the kanji in the RTK order and learn readings and compounds as you go. It wouldn't be any different from kanjidicks.

[Anonymous No.]

Since we're on this topic:
http://pastebin.com/THHZbgYF
In any of that text, are there any dialects being used?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5864251
Sure kanji are obsolete. I believe you.