/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

How do Shkanonfags explain this?
During Erika's poor attempt to solve the mystery of the letter and the knock, she and Dlanor discuss Shannon and Kanon as though they were two separate people. Since Erika has an objective viewpoint, shouldn't she raise some sort of objection to Dlanor referring to them like this?
Keep in mind that this is Meta-Erika, not Piece-Erika. She should have objective access to whatever her piece sees.

Also, Ep5 is pretty poorly written in comparison to previous games, isn't it? Especially that godawful over-narrated study scene. Lends some credence to the idea that BT was ghostwriting the whole series before he died.

Anyway, Umineko theory general.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852579

Before this gets deluged under Shkanon, let me ask something that interests me more.

Are Virgillia and Ronove "real" in the sense that they aren't just pieces of the GM and therefore just parts of his/her mind? I mean, it would be hilariously depressing if Battler and Beato are really just all alone.

I think they are just because, "Genji" and "Kumasawa" show some independence in Ep6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852605
They're as real as the rest of the magic characters.
That is to say, they only exist conceptually. Of course, they also seem to have Meta and Piece selves, so...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852605
As long as you believe that Virgilia/Kumasawa knew Beatrice from a young age, then she's real.

[Anonymous No.]

>godawful over-narrated study scene
It was meant to show for the most retarded that all those magic fights are actually just metaphors for real world logic battles and investigation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852635
I don't mean that, I mean the parts where a character is shown to do something, and then the narration describes, in detail, the thing that they were just shown to do.
It's textbook bad writing. I almost have to wonder if it was being done on purpose.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852620
>>5852632

So they probably have a real world basis then? Right, I'll accept that their real. It's been bugging me for a while anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852651

"I will now kill you and drink this milk!"

Thus, Beatrice killed him.

And drank the milk.

>captcha woodworm Sai-tan

'sup Zouken and True Assasin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852666
Sort of like that but worse. The narration describes stuff to me as though I was a complete idiot who wasn't even reading. It's annoying.
Wish I had screencapped an example of that, but I was too angry to do so.

[Anonymous No.]

Bernkastel told Erika to pretend that they're two different people to give her a handicap.

Try and disprove my claim.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852684
I agree that those things are annoying. Ryukishi repeats too many things; I don't think he edits anything, just writes and fixes typos probably.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852684
Show an example. I can't see anything like that. Maybe just:
>".........I think that's enough. Ushiromiya Kinzo-san is nowhere to be found in this study."
>"Yeah, we've searched all the places where he could have been hiding. Dad's nowhere to be seen."
>"Furthermore, we've found nothing that looks suspicious."

>"Yes, we didn't find anything at all."
>Erika said it again.
>They hadn't been able to discover anything......
But it's just to emphasize her expression, her doubts, because they didn't find any clues.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852702
Devil's Proof arguments aren't allowed anymore due to lolKnox.
>>5852704
Well, no, that's my point. He didn't used to do this, or if he did, it wasn't NEARLY this bad.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852725
Not that. Reread the battle in the study between Dlanor and Beato.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852726
It's not a devil's proof.

There are clues

Bern is a huge troll
Bern has already shown that she would give her one

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852684
>Sort of like that but worse. The narration describes stuff to me as though I was a complete idiot who wasn't even reading. It's annoying.
When done right, that's actually a way to channel the reader into thinking what the author wants.
He writes the reasoning very clearly, so you're trapped in it and you don't notice what's actually important for resolving the mystery.
I'm not sure R07 is doing it skillfully, but that's the gist of it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852735
Okay, maybe this one:
>"The time for playing is over. Here I go. In that case, I shall acknowledge that Kinzo did not enter or leave the study. Why don't I accept your closed room?"
>".........HMM."
>"Let it be known that Beatrice has changed her pattern of attack."
>Beatrice, who had until then thoroughly resisted the idea that a closed room existed, did an about face.
>She proclaimed that she accepted that proposition.
>Of course, this didn't mean that she'd surrendered.
>This was a new attack of Beato's.
>Dlanor noticed this and readied herself.
But I don't see nearly as much as you claim.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852743
Well, why would the handicap have to do with Shkanon? They're hardly important to Ep5.
>>5852748
It's not even that. It's like:

>Beato uses a blue truth that shows the reader that she's reasoned theory X
-Narration states that Beato used a blue truth to show the reader that she reasoned theory X

The fight scene in that study is BEYOND redundant. The repetition serves no purpose since Beato's theories are denied two seconds later; it's pure, shameless filler.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852748

On the subject of mystery tricks, has anyone ever made a time table for the games? The clock was a bit conspicuously absent in EP6. A few other tricks include showing things out of order, manipulating you. Nobody said a story has to be linear right? Clock fuckery is also a good trick for creating alibis, and if you combine that with out of order narration...

Man, Golden Age mysteries are awesome puzzles.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852765
Yeah, like that. It's stupid. That entire block of text could be cut down into the first sentence.
And throughout that scene it just gets worse and worse.
But that wasn't why I made this thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852783
>Man, Golden Age mysteries are awesome puzzles.
"Clock fuckery" isn't a really good example of a Golden-Age-era trick. Those were entirely about legitimate misdirection/traps in thinking rather than dicking around with the narrative, which is rather dishonest and exactly the sort of thing Van Dine hated.

[Anonymous No.]

Shkannon battle, go.

[EP4 red]
The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!
[/red]
This gives us a basis for:
Kanon = main personality. If we assume personality = 1 person, then he can claim Shannon's name but she can't claim Kanon's name. However:

[EP2 red]
Kanon was killed in this room
[/red]

After that, Shannon is still alive and kicking. The only solution for this seems to be Shannon completely overtaking Kanon's body, shutting his personality down forever, therefore 'killing' him. I can't accept this to be a solution but it seems like it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852775
>"Proof is unnecessary!! It's a Devil's Proof. It's impossible to find a hidden door and therefore impossible to disprove that it exists!! Therefore, no one can deny the possibility that Kinzo escaped from this study through a hidden door!!"
>♫"I will not allow a hidden door to exist in this ROOM."
>Beato's blue wedge, which had been fired off as a farewell gift, was crushed with a flash of Dlanor's long sword, ......and the pitch black gate was crushed as well...!
>And it wasn't just crushed visibly and physically.
>From that moment onwards, the warp portal which conceptualized hidden doors had been destroyed.
It serves the purpose of >>5852635

All other blues are narrated only to describe the stake, impact, etc.
Maybe you should reread it carefully.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852797
Sort of like a reverse Tyler Durden?

[Anonymous No.]

I just love it.
Bern is a troll => It proves everything.
Almost as good as Jessica speaking of personnalities in ep2=> Shkannon.
Well, no, even Jessica in ep2 is better.

flawless proof here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852802
I just read it. Like not an hour ago.
Keep reading, trust me, if you're intelligent at all, this scene is insulting.
But, again, this wasn't why I made this thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852796

Well, this was done in a Golden Age classic and done well in my opinion since the clues were there, and the detective character noticed it and was very obvious about it. The narrative misdirection was done entirely to facilitate the clock trick too, so clues about the clock, amounted to clues about the switched narrative. The clues were directly stated and in the text.

Anyway, I think that story gets a pass because of skillful manipulation of reader expectations and red herrings. You were led to think what the author wants you to think. Exactly so. Blew my mind. That was a fine mystery.

Anyway, I'm besides the point. Ryukishi isn't above dirty tricks anyway, so I think I'll make a time table soon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852838
Wait, this was actually in a Golden Age story? Seems a bit too postmodern for that era.
Which mystery was this? I want to read it now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852807
Well, that's right.
You know I've always hated people who care about their relations with the opposite sex more than about their intelligence. They are simply animals, not humans. Therefore, love = stupidity. Without being stupid, it can't be seen.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852838
I always take notice of the clock, and I think I'd realize if it suddenly went back on hour or something. Granted, I didn't write down the times, so there could have been a 10 minute reverse and I might not have noticed, but there wasn't anything like an hour or more of a discrepancy in the wrong direction.

[Anonymous No.]

As everyone noticed, through the story we encounter sections like this:

'blah-blah-blah
. . . . . .
blah-blah-blah'

What's this? A big red 'READ THIS THROUGHLY, IT'S SERIOUSLY VITAL' or a big red herring?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852912
That's how Japanese make emphasis on words, without using a different script like katakana. You'd see it in manga too if you read it in Japanese.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852920
Sometimes the emphasis can reveal pretty interesting things, though.
Assuming you're looking for them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852928
Think of it more like italics. The emphasis is put on how the words are spoken, not what's written. You probably only see the dots above spoken words of dialogue. If it's above narration, then the author is putting emphasis on the important point of the sentence or discussion, for whatever reason.

[Anonymous No.]

i thought those dots on top were some leftovers from that stuff people sometimes put above hard to read kanjis to make them easier to read.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852990
That's furigana; entirely different.

[Anonymous No.]

Well, why don't we just see what they emphasize and if there are any clues. From ep1: http://pastie.org/1072619

[Anonymous No.]

>>5852851

Well I've already gave away the central trick so I'll just put the title in spoilers. It's awesome going in unspoiled.

The Three Coffins by John Dickson Carr.

[Anonymous No.]

Erika doesn't have an objective point of view, that's why she can talk in red and discuss with meta characters on the gameboard.

[Anonymous No.]

I do not support ShKanon, but it is really easy to explain that by using the dirty trick used by Ryu in EP5 and EP6, the so called Land of the Golden Witch.
And I also shall add this: in the scene where Erika accuses Natsuhi of being the culprit, Shannon and Kanon are both there. Also this should contraddict ShKanon.
However as shown in EP6 Erika never reached the island as a living person, but only as a corpse. And she is the only detective. Then, this means there is no detective in EP5 and everything is under the interpretation of the Game Master, Lambdadelta, which allows Erika to exist because this allows her to have everything under her interpretation. So, Erika's PoV is completely untrustable. Erika does not even exist in the very first place.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5853344
Erika exists as a fictional character.
Which isn't bad at all for her considering the games themsevles are FICTIONS.
Anyways, she really did exist in episode 5 and 6, implying otherwise is completely retarded

[Anonymous No.]

>>5853364
>>5853344
There is no scene of her TALKING or INTERACTING with both of them at the same time.
Everything she said and see can be considered as a reliable point of view but in this case it was just stated by the narrator that shkanon is in the room as two people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5853389
You guys are missing the point again.
The screencap I uploaded is of the meta-argument about the letter and the knock. It's Meta-Erika who is being spoken to; you can't get around this by stating that "Shannon and Kanon were seen together from a subjective POV".
If Erika's POV is, in fact, objective, as it should be, then she should make some objection to the assertion that Shannon and Kanon are different people. This shows up again during the trial scene, where they're, again, referred to as separate by people who really ought to know better.
One could say that this is just so the players don't find out too early, but that's not even a trick; it's just plain dishonest.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5854626
>meta-argument
That's the whole point, you idiot.
What she hears in the meta-world, which is something that is FANTASY, can't be used as a clue.
AN OBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW CAN'T SEE OR HEAR FANTASY/META CHARACTERS.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5854656
That's not what I'm talking about at all.
If Erika, like Battler, can "look" through her piece to gain an objective POV, then she should know that Shannon and Kanon are the same person. I'm asking why she doesn't object to Dlanor implying that they aren't, that's all.
Keep in mind that Piece-Erika only interacts with meta characters from the POV of the narrator, not from her own perspective.

[Anonymous No.]

I had a dream that DEEN was making a Chiru anime. Everyone was even posting scans on /jp/. And there was a trailer. And you know whats scary? It actually looked good.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5854700
Erika isn't like Battler.
Meta-Battler and piece Battler were separate, Meta-Erika and piece Erika are one and the same.
And we never see her perspective.

We see Erika talk in red on the gameboard, interact with meta-characters on the gameboard.
So if she had an objective POV, how could this be possible?
You want her to have both the fantasy knowledge and the mystery knowledge, sorry but you have to choose one.
If she only has the mystery knowledge, explain how she could do these fantasy stuffs on the gameboard.

If it's Battler's POV that is lying and that Erika never did any of these, doesn't this mean that everything else we saw in this episode, including the time when Erika saw Shannon and Kanon together could be a lie as well?

[ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU No.]

>>5853389
There is a scene where she is talking with them at the same time. And yes, I will keep posting it every time you try to claim there isn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5854750
She doesn't talk to both at the same time.
First one to talk is either Kumasawa or Shannon, second is Kanon.
But it's a moot point considering that Erika only answer Kanon's comment.

[Anonymous No.]

His penis

[Anonymous No.]

No matter what happens in EP7--if Shkanon is confirmed, denied, whatever...

I'm going to be laughing my ass off.

Cheers, /jp/.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5853364

So you think. But if Shkanon isn't true, that leaves a glut of people that can only be explained by Erika being fake.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5854736
>Meta-Erika and piece Erika are one and the same.
No, they're not. They merely share experiences, like Piece-Ronove and Meta-Ronove. Or, better yet, Piece-Beatrice and Meta-Beatrice.
>So if she had an objective POV, how could this be possible?
Because everything she does is seen from either the narrator's or Battler's POV, both of which are subjective.
>explain how she could do these fantasy stuffs on the gameboard.
She can't. Magic isn't real and thus neither is bullshit like the detective's authority.
>doesn't this mean that everything else we saw in this episode, including the time when Erika saw Shannon and Kanon together could be a lie as well?
Of course, and that's what Shkanonfags like to argue. WHAT MY POINT IS is that Shannon and Kanon are implied to be separate beings by Dlanor (and Bern and Lambda, in the trial) and IF ERIKA'S PIECE HAS AN OBJECTIVE VIEWPOINT (and she should, being the detective) THEN SHE SHOULD RAISE SOME KIND OF OBJECTION TO THAT ASSERTION.
>>5854750
That's not going to work because of lolsubjectiveviewpoint, unfortunately.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5854777
Which makes sense to me. Everything Erika does screams of "fake".

[Anonymous No.]

Why exactly can we trust Shkanon again? If we routinely marginalized events that occurred that weren't directly witnessed by a detective in their own trustworthy perspective, how is the readers' logic exempt from this? we're the easiest to have been misled.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5854783
The same thing have been said about the scene where she see everyone in one room.
"Why doesn't Erika find something strange here and don't even say something about it or try to use it in her theories?"
The thing is, Shkannonfags just don't care.
Typical answer : "Erika is stupid". Really.

[ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU No.]

>>5854783
This is often what people who support Shkanon reach for, yes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5854886
Er, doesn't your cap sort of support Shkanon?]
I mean, it is driven into us so very, very hard in Ep6, and yet a lot of people still refuse to see it.

[Anonymous No.]

How do Shkanonfags explain THIS?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5854949
And ep6 also contradict this screencaps with Auau

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855015
Either way, one thing in particular I think we can be sure of: Ryukishi wrote Ep6 to fuck with us, to create a situation where the fanbase was divided over a single issue and every single discussion devolved into an argument about that issue.

Hell, we can't even have normal theory threads anymore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5854949
It's not that they "don't see it," it's they don't want to admit Ryukishi is cheap enough to get around any kind of mystery using what can be viewed as an underhanded, convenient trick. One that is so convenient that it can count as a broken skill - whatever the situation requires, using it can resolve the issue.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't keep up with Umineko fan discussions much but I've always wondered. The popular theories of recent are 1) Shkanon and 2) Erika is not real.
Let's say that both these theories are wrong. Let's say that Erika counts as +1 for the Rokkenjima count, meaning if Erika does come, there are 17 people on the island, and if Erika doesn't come, there are 16 people on the island. Let's also say that Shannon and Kanon are two separate fleshly entities, as in, if you kill Shannon and Kanon, there are two corpses.

How would the red text at the end of episode 6 be resolved if we took the above assumptions to be true?
Would it mean that one other person, like Nanjo or Gohda, wouldn't be real, or...?

[Anonymous No.]

All the clues point to Shkanon, the answer is clear. the way she got that way is what the beatrice mystery is about now (kinzorape, unwanted orphan child, etc)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855085
Your post is as informative as it is short. If you're going to make a point, you make a full point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5854866
Erika confirmed in the start of the Duel with Beato that Battler and Kanon are not the same person. I think when she asked that, she already knew that Shkanon is not the answer to the Closed room.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855085
This is a dead end. "Shkanontrice is true, and she's crazy because Battler never saved her from Kinzorape."
Okay, then what? Why the fuck did she kill everyone? It's not for pleasure, revenge, or to scare anyone. Furthermore, I refuse to accept LOVE as a motive because even an insane person would never use that as a justification. Plus, is Ryu07 really unoriginal enough to rip off Tsukihime like that?
Once you hit Shkanontrice and figure out the most obvious reason for her DID, you pretty much have nowhere left to go.
Besides, not ALL clues point to Shkanon(trice). What's with all the people faking their deaths, in that case?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855111

>Furthermore, I refuse to accept LOVE as a motive because even an insane person would never use that as a justification

Someone didn't read Ep6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855124
not the same guy, but I don't think Battler would forgive Beatrice for killing his family so easily, just because she "loved" him. There must be something way more solid

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855124
No, seriously, that's not a reason. Even batshit people do not use LOVE as a reason to murder EVERYONE.
Unless you're referring to something else, I dunno.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855111
>Furthermore, I refuse to accept LOVE as a motive because even an insane person would never use that as a justification.
>implying love isn't one of, if not THE most popular justification for evil acts in fiction

>Plus, is Ryu07 really unoriginal enough to rip off Tsukihime like that?
>implying Tsukihime invented tragedies of unrequited love

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855111

What don't you get about the whole without love it cannot be seen? It's been driven into you from the godamn start multiple times. LOVE is the motive. But not in the way people think.


Here's my spin on things.

Fake murder mystery that's interupted by a real true culprit.

Shakanon(trice) is not the culprit. They murder no one. They are part of an elaborate plan to get the entire family to find the gold. This plan is only enacted when the ENTIRE main family is present. A part of kinzo's will, the servants wanting a share, take it as you will, in all eps the murders are "usually" Works of arts as far as the production goes.

This is why it is said that beatoriche is not the murderer. But the "murderer". Perhaps through the course of the "game" someone goes overboard and starts to really kill who they suspect to be the murderer and then shenanigans ensue to cover up that fact. Using this, it is possible to explain many of the completely retarded deaths and random occurences around and within the 2 day limit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855160

>Shakanon(trice) is not the culprit. They murder no one. They are part of an elaborate plan to get the entire family to find the gold. This plan is only enacted when the ENTIRE main family is present. A part of kinzo's will, the servants wanting a share, take it as you will, in all eps the murders are "usually" Works of arts as far as the production goes.

>This is why it is said that beatoriche is not the murderer. But the "murderer". Perhaps through the course of the "game" someone goes overboard and starts to really kill who they suspect to be the murderer and then shenanigans ensue to cover up that fact. Using this, it is possible to explain many of the completely retarded deaths and random occurences around and within the 2 day limit.

That doesn't answer why LOVE is the motive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855149
>implying love isn't one of, if not THE most popular justification for evil acts in fiction

Bit different from the way I'm using the word here. Usually, people who kill for love kill to save someone else. They don't murder an ENTIRE FAMILY and then BLOW UP AN ISLAND just because of LOVE.

>implying Tsukihime invented tragedies of unrequited love

Well, let's see.

-Hired as servant at a young age
-Used as sex toy by much older man
-Became crazy as a result
-Male lead made a promise to her
-Entire story is her trying to get him to remember that promise
-Murders people for vague and contradictory reasons
-Has a twin

Am I talking about Kohaku or Shannon?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855160

i think i can see what this can imply, that the whole ushiromiya family are fucked up murderers because its quite clear that we dont have a true single mastermind

it wouldn't be possible for that same person to be living and commit the crimes from what we've seen in all the eps if its not shkannon

we should see it that way too, it doesn't sound right to me either

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855160
That theory has nothing to do with love at all. Futhermore, unless there are MORE word game shenanigans, Shannon/Kanon/Shkanontrice is the murderer in Ep1.

[Anonymous No.]

What if the murderer just LOVEs to kill?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855194
Beatrice doesn't kill for pleasure.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855208

Beatrice doesn't kill at all. She's the scapegoat. Why can't you see this? It's been pounded and pounded and pounded into us through the course of the game. Beatrice is the excuse.


>>5855180
>>5855192
>>5855193
Ok, i went on a tanget. Ignoring the love angle (For now) it's still a theory i'd like to craft further as i like it. Even if it's unrealistic.

[Anonymous No.]

Why is there another one of these "Ha! Explain THIS, Shkanonfags!" threads everyday?

You should be able to understand their logic and understand how they explain it themselves. So stop trying to deny what can't yet be denied based on lose reasoning.

It's funny you have to resort to this kind of thing, really. You only need to look at episode 1 to prove that every other person on the island is real.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855160
Except if we don't use the wordplays to circumvent the red, there's no way shannon/shkannon(trice) isn't guilty of murders in the main arcs (ep1-2). And if we use it, then there's no need for shkannon at all, it's just useless complication.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855160
I really like this theory, and it definitely fits in with the character of "Beatrice," who is shown as taking the blame for evil deeds so as to absolve the real criminal from guilt and the plot that Battler made in Episode 6 when he understood the board.

One question that remains to be answered, however, is the BOMB. A good guess I've heard is that the defusing the BOMB is related to completely solving the epitaph, and that it's a fail-safe left by Kinzo to ensure that the gold doesn't fall into the hands of someone who found it by accident, but the question then is - does anyone on the island know about it?

Other questions:
Who is the staker?
Does each MO correspond to a different killer?
What really happened in Episode 4?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855221
>Beatrice is the excuse.
Oh, I agree with you. It's just that the Shkanonfags are convinced that she's the killer.
And honestly, if Shkanon is true, she HAS to be.
>>5855222
>So stop trying to deny what can't yet be denied based on lose reasoning.
There is currently no concrete proof (red text) for or against Shkanon. Stop acting as though there is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855244
>What really happened in Episode 4?

If you want my opinion, I'd say that almost everyone died at the same time, and that they only died AFTER Beatrice talked to Battler outside the mansion.

I'd like to point out that the only person in the dungeon that Battler actually talked to, ever, was Kyrie.

Fake murders for Battler's sake? Everyone is in on it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855160

I think this is close to the truth.

What I think happened was:

Some of the family members are given sedatives in their tea to make them sleep, either on purpose or against their will, perhaps both at different points. they are then dressed up to look dead in order to trick Natushi and/or Krauss to admit that Kinzo is dead. Nanjo gives the fake autopsy, maria assists with making it look demonic, and genji or kumusawa probably draws the circles. Then someone, (Shannon or Joji), goes back and remurders everyone, I'm leaning toward Joji being the sub-boss and ShKanon being the mastermind.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855246
I said stop trying to deny what can't yet be denied.

If my point was "Shkanon is definitely true, you will never be able to deny it" then I wouldn't say 'yet' I would say flat-out that you would never be able to deny it.

[Anonymous No.]

My only problem with shkanon(trice) is how desperately R07 is trying to force-feed it down our throats. Why is he being so obvious about it? Is he trying to hide something from us?

WHAT'S THE MIRACLE KINZO WAS TRYINGTO BRING ABOUT?

WHAT'S BATTLER'S SIN?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855262
Too bad it doesn't work.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855272

miracle: someone diffuses the bomb
battler's sin: being a dumbass

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855270
And I'm saying I can deny it all I want since it hasn't been proven yet.

>>5855262
Except that it's foolish to believe in Shkanon without believing in Shkanontrice. Even I admit that.

>>5855272
Shiki, I mean, Battler's sin is apparently not coming back to save Shannon from Kinzorape. Apparently.

[Anonymous No.]

Did anyone else notice that in the episode 2 scene where everyone questions Gohda about Beatrice, it's all third person even though Battler is there? We have evidence that shows if Battler's viewpoint is shown through third person then it isn't necessarily reliable. Did Kyrie, Rosa and such actually claim Beatrice existed, or was this just Beato trying to suggest her existence to Battler with unreliable narration, like she does with the magic scenes?

[Anonymous No.]

Holy fuck. Forgive an unrelated post, but I found this screenshot while skimming through my VN folder. DID.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855281

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzoL_rK2kwM

1:33

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855288
Oh, you can personally deny it. But you can't come out with caps and say "Shkanon now disproved" because no such concrete evidence exists. That's what I mean when I say deny.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855272

Miracle: Bringing out HIS beatrice from shannon.
Sin: Not taking her away from the island.

Protip; the scenes where batteler is "training" moetrice is a parralel to kinzo training his new beatrice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855261
How about Gohda, Kumasawa and George?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855293
Kyrie clearly told that to Battler when he asked her, confirming Rosa's story.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855244
The thing is, multiple people solve it and it still goes off.

The stakes are an interesting issue and a lead that everyone ignores. As far as I can tell, for some reason, Jessica is the staker - I can't see it any other way in E3 - otherwise it would be Genji, since he has the most motive for such shit.
Also, the thing that bothers me the most about this is that we are talking about Jessica, who either has a trolldeath or survives until the end.

>captcha 'well, Rodenberg'

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855294
Heh, I remember that.
>>5855299
Then we're in agreement.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855335
It's hard to put even a fake stake in your own back.
Then, she's also a murderer in ep2, see Natsuhi's room.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855301
>Miracle: Bringing out HIS beatrice from shannon.

Correct.

>Sin: Lying to Shannon about the kind of woman he really likes, which indirectly leads to her assuming the "Beatrice" persona.

>Protip; the scenes where batteler is "training" moetrice is a parralel to kinzo training his new beatrice.

This. There's not a few people who really don't get it, and it boggles me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855324
Gohda and Kumasawa initially hung themselves as part of the fake deaths. Someone, who had an extra key to the shutter, shot them later.
George either tried to interfere or alter the deal, and the real culprit shot him in the head.
Considering where he was found, it was probably Shannon who did it.
>>5855330
Kyrie is also a giant troll. Remember Ep4?

[Anonymous No.]

>Miracle: Bringing out HIS beatrice from shannon.

Correct.

>Sin: Lying to Shannon about the kind of woman he really likes, which indirectly leads to her assuming the "Beatrice" persona.

Fixed.

>Protip; the scenes where batteler is "training" moetrice is a parralel to kinzo training his new beatrice.

This. There's not a few people who really don't get it, and it boggles me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855346
>Sin: Lying to Shannon about the kind of woman he really likes, which indirectly leads to her assuming the "Beatrice" persona.
I'm sick of this. Show me the fucking screen, when he says that.

>the scenes where batteler is "training" moetrice is a parralel to kinzo training his new beatrice.
He's not training her. He hopes for a miracle, that she'll remember, that "her soul will return".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855356
That part of the sin seems legit, but you also forgot his promise to take her off the island. Maybe he promised to make her an Ushiromiya too, so when he threw away his name and never visited the island in the 7 years, tht made her resentful.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855361
EP6. When Beato is remembering Battler, after Shannon wins the love duel.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855335
>The thing is, multiple people solve it and it still goes off.

No, they find the gold. There's a difference. Solving the epitaph completely likely entails disarming the BOMB somehow (Featherine makes a point of suggesting that people have missed something about the last portion of the epitaph)

About the stakes: do you think the staker is in league with the real killer?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855379
And why do you think that he's lying?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855356
Except that it's retarded. Is ther eANY EVIDENCE WHAT SO FUCKING EVER that Kinzo was trying to ressurrect Beatrice via Shannon?

And Battler's "sin" was fibbing about the kind of girl he liked or about the white knight part? First of all, shaknnontrice would have no way to know he lied about that, and the white knight -- no evidence AT ALL that would be considered a "sin" worth launching a campaign of repeated homocides.

I admit R07 is pushing shkannon, but making Beatrice a part of that too stretches it past breaking.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855349
I've always thought that Genji did Natsuhi's room.

"Lady Rosa, I came back to report a little something. Remember those two bodies that disappeared...? Yeah, someone, I wonder who it was, dragged them to the garden and I happened to find them there while I drank tea in the kitchen the whole time. Also, three more people disappeared, oh well, it seems someone killed them and locked the room, so I happen to the single remaining possible culprit. Apart from the witch, of course."
"Okay, good job Genji"
(yes, the conversation goes pretty much like this. Also note that when George's group is about to leave, Rosa calls Nanjo to the corner and tells him something we don't hear and adds "I am counting on you, then". So, what if she found the gold and tried to bribe Genji and Nanjo, but Genji was actually really loayal to Jessica?)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855397
Genji isn't a killer. Ep4, Hidden Tea Party.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855397
If someone other than suicidal shannon killed them in that room, the murderer must be hiding in there, when Battler arrived to the room. Unless you want to push that retarded 'Rosa' thing with the keys, or an unknown trick "X" to lock the room afterwards.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855335

They don't solve the last part of it. They only solve it up to the part where the gold is found. Wich you'd think is the point, but it's not

One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.
One shall be, to put the Witch to sleep for all time.

The first line is the gold, what about the other 3?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855394
Wanna know the funniest part?

Gaap is another split personality of DiDMeido.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855417
True, dammit.

Well, that goes for Nanjo too, but he could still say something very improper. He is implied to have a relation to George, after all.

So what am I wondering about is, why is the room staked all over? I don't want to believe that Jessica actually dirties her hands that much, four people with firearm wounds, that's no random shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855429
>unknown trick "X" to lock the room afterwards
Oops, I meant to "destroy that locked room", because unknown tricks to lock the door were already denied.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855390
>>5855394

The point isn't whether or not Shannon knows he's lying. We know he's lying because he muses in Episode 2 or 3 about how relationships between kids are weird and that he didn't go out with the girl he actually liked.

The point is that he told Shannon, who was in love with him, that he liked a blonde, busty, Jessica-ish woman, and her attempts to change herself to fit this image (remember when Shannon mentions to George about how she embarrassed herself with makeup when she was younger?) was the first step on the road that resulted in the persona of Beatrice.

That's Battler's sin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855394
Eva in episode 1 said that there were rumors that Kinzo was using the orphans he hired for weird experiments.

Now remember what Kinzo is trying to do, what his experiments could be I wonder.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855444
But then you have to answer 'why Shannon killed everyone'.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855444
>We know he's lying because he muses in Episode 2 or 3 about how relationships between kids are weird and that he didn't go out with the girl he actually liked.
It was ep5.
In other words, there's no sin at all, because saying you like some kind of girl is not a sin worth enough to kill 17 people.
captcha says to avoid the pony.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855458
To truly become Beatrice, to open the road to the golden land, to be reunited with her loved one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855462
So basically, she was crazy, then.

Going on a tangent, but, funny thing is, there's another motive that I noticed when playing through the 1998 scenes in Ep4. That is, 'to create the ultimate mystery'.
Ange describes the bottle letters and the resulting events as a "game" being played between Beatrice and those left behind...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855488
I also noticed that. She also says that the Legend of this island and the witch was initially small, but after the discovery of the bottles it had grown more and more, then was the Ushiromiya library from Kuwadorian that Eva sold, which further promotes the occult side. Beatrice's intention is to make the other people acknowledge her as a witch. Then was a talk between Amakusa, Ange and stakes about acknowledgment and self-acknowledgment in life. It must be related somehow.

[Anonymous No.]

People keep saying Beatrice believes in magic and thinks people will be revived in the gold land but I don't think that is the case

The golden land is supposed to make furniture, witches and humans equal. It's described in a scene with Shannon and Kanon as bringing everything back to 0. Kanon and Shannon say they knew this day was coming since they were first born, since before they even met with the Beatrice only the two of them could see. They knew them being furniture had something to do with this golden land, Kanon remembered, but Shannon forgot and got involved in love. In episode 4, Battler's tip says that hell is the golden land to the witch.

<Great equalizer is The Death!>

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855582

It's more like, beatrice needs to believe in magic to continue being beatrice. Her whole personality is (seemingly) dependant on her being a witch. So the only way to break her out of this concurrent hell that is the rokkenjiima incident is for batora to make her see that she has worth as her own person, whatever that person is (Shkannon non withstanding, i'm not talking about DID here, just how people percieve themselves).

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855444
>We know he's lying because he muses in Episode 2 or 3 about how relationships between kids are weird and that he didn't go out with the girl he actually liked.
Yeah, and he was fine with it. Everything in the game points out that first love = not a big fucking deal. So whatever Battler promised Beato had to be a bigger deal than JUST love, even if love was a component.

I'm sorry, but "endless torture" for a thousand years is not "waahh, I got taken to the aquarium by a fat guy instead of the hot redhead."

[Anonymous No.]

>One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.

Self-explanatory.

>One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.

The "murders" will be revealed as having been faked.

>One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.

Battler will remembers his feelings for Shannon and reconcile with them. Alternatively, he NTRs George (who is the real killer) and wins back Shannon from him.

>One shall be, to put the Witch to sleep for all time.

The Witch persona is born to be a woman who Battler can love. If Battler loves Shannon for who she actually is, then there's no need for the existence of Beatrice.

Captcha: furniture muggier

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855582
>since before they even met with the Beatrice only the two of them could see.
I couldn't help but notice how much episode 2 repeats this fact. Actually, episode 2 in general is very interesting in retrospect, and I don't only say that as a ShKanonfag. I'd even be tempted to say it has the most clues of all episodes. Maybe R07 actually thought it could be possible to solve it with just 1 and 2, which is what Featherine seems to have done.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855461
exactly this.

Battler's 'promise' doesn't even sound much like a promise than something incredibly embarrassing. I didn't even realize it could come off as a promise in a strange way until the pony theory people came along.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855616
>I'm sorry, but "endless torture" for a thousand years is not "waahh, I got taken to the aquarium by a fat guy instead of the hot redhead."
You really trivialize the whole situation by treating Shkanontrice as one person. Beatrice never went out with a fat guy. She was created for the sole purpose of being Battler's ideal, without that, her existence was meaningless. That's why she would rather have not been born if Battler doesn't come back. Actually creating the personality in the first place is the weird thing, but once you get past that, it's understandable that Beatrice suffered severely.

[Anonymous No.]

If Battler's sin was actually something significant he would remember it. It's something he doesn't view as a big deal, we don't view as a big deal, but someone else did. Episode 6 stresses that sins are judged by the ones sinned against, and a small thing can seem like a big thing because of that. And we already know it's a promise. Because of knox 8th, can it really be anything else other than promising to come back on a white horse, rescue her from the island, etc?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855640
>understandable that Beatrice suffered severely.

No it isn't. She's being hilariously overdramatic about the whole thing.
Besides, is Battler returning to Rokkenjima REALLY a reason to murder EVERYONE?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855621
>Maybe R07 actually thought it could be possible to solve it with just 1 and 2, which is what Featherine seems to have done.
Yeah, I also think like this. But I don't fucking see any clues for Battler's promise to Shannon, who's his first love, etc, etc in these episodes. Maybe I should look better, or maybe it's just a big red herring. Later episodes is just Hachijou's interpretation of their past.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855652
Is that REALLY a reason to murder EVERYONE?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855620

I agree with the first two parts, the last two, however, not so much.

At the very least the last line is far more likely to be about disarming the "bomb".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855616
>Everything in the game points out that first love = not a big fucking deal.

Everything told from Battler's point of view. Shannon on the other hand, brings up something in Episode 6 about first loves which would seem to support the whole "creating 'Beatrice' so Sayo can start again clean. It's when she's talking with George.

Anyone have the screen saved?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855664
no.

looks like Ryukishi is going the crazy culprit route, a la Takano (killing everyone = becoming God) rather than a sane culprit who is just a magnificent bastard (Erika)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855621
EP2 also goes into depth about Shannon's past and how she hadn't really loved a guy before George. All evidence pointing away from Shkanontrice.

Also, when you try to figure out the logistics of Shannon splitting her personality, it's shot all to hell, as the portrait that looked like Battler's ideal has only been around for two years, but Shannon fell in love with George after it existed, also Kanon was lurking around.

Most theories put forth that Kanon was created after Shannon, but that's impossible, because he's been around a year longer than Beatrice as we know her. Looking at it from that perspective, Shannon is already "furniture" by the time she decides to split her soul, the lines about giving "half" a soul to Beatrice don't make sense, because Shannon doesn't have half a soul to give.

Personally, in that scene where Beatrice is talking to the portrait, it seems more to me like Beatrice is PAINTING the portrait. That portrait comes to define the "image" of Beatrice, but before it was created, Beatrice could have looked like ANYONE.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855674
>brings up something in Episode 6 about first loves
Uh, sorry, bro, but "there's nothing wrong with forgetting your first love" doesn't exactly imply she thinks there's something bad about doing so.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855678
>EP2 also goes into depth about Shannon's past and how she hadn't really loved a guy before George. All evidence pointing away from Shkanontrice.
That's because she split her soul and put all that in Beatrice? What's the point in her creating the personality to hold all her regrets and pains of love in the first place if she remembers them anyway? You saying this evidence is contrary to Shkanontrice is ignoring the monologue about Beatrice's creation. Shannon's past with Beatrice and Kanon also heavily points towards Shkanontrice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855678
>Most theories put forth that Kanon was created after Shannon, but that's impossible, because he's been around a year longer than Beatrice as we know her. Looking at it from that perspective, Shannon is already "furniture" by the time she decides to split her soul, the lines about giving "half" a soul to Beatrice don't make sense, because Shannon doesn't have half a soul to give.
Shannon's soul is split into three pieces - herself, Kanon and Beatrice. Beatrice was created after Battler left, so that's six years. Kanon only came in 1983.

[Anonymous No.]

>*"The Ushiromiya name does not belong to you and your father alone.* That was your childishness, nothing more than your resistance from not being able to forgive the fact that your father was stolen away by an unknown woman. ......Those six years during which *you threw away the Ushiromiya family register* were a significantly long period where *you covered the Ushiromiya family in mud.* Know the depths of that sin."
I somehow feel that his sin is that. All that's left is to connect it to murders...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855699
See, this is what I'm talking about. If you actually try reading Beatrice's monologue in EP6, you'll realize she's been waiting for some time before she does the split.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855699
The Beatrice only Kanon and Shannon can see at first is not met 6 years ago. How could Beatrice exist for all that time and not meet Shannon? Especially when Shannon says when creating her that only she will be able to see her at first.

Shannon did not create Beatrice right away. She created her after getting tired of waiting for Battler, at which point all of Shannon's memories of waiting and yearning were given to Beatrice. So while Beatrice has existed for less than 6 years, it seems like 6 years to her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855676
And isn't that just disappointing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855724
The Beatrice that Shannon and Kanon met is Big-Sis Beatrice. It even says that she gave them the butterfly brooch.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855724
And AGAIN, this means Kanon had to have been created first, meaning Shannon didn't have a soul to split.

[Anonymous No.]

You guys should actually do some research on DID...

[Anonymous No.]

Natsuhi knows about Shkanontrice. She just ignores it like a dirty little secret because the golden eagle servants and all their oddities are necessary components of pretending Kinzo is alive. It is normalcy in the household.

Genji, Shannon and Jessica commonly have demonic teaparty LARP sessions together and this is just accepted.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855764
Which means that the Beatrice as we know her can't be more than a year and a half old if we go by Shkanontrice. AKA, Shkanontrice is bullshit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855772
I think it's Ryukishi that needs to do that.

[Anonymous No.]

>"As you get closer to the world of gods, the concept of time becomes increasingly vague. Six years can become a thousand, and a thousand years can be nothing more than a quick nap.
>......One can fit an eternity long enough to be deserving of the title 'one hundred year old witch' in a mere two weeks..."
If we take that as a hint, then 1000 years will be about 140 days. And the period between Jule 15 (0715) and November 29 (1129) is 137 days...

[Anonymous No.]

The Shannon we see now isn't the same Shannon of 6 years ago.
This Shannon aka Sayo created the personalities but Shannon (who was created during the first split most likely) and Kanon who was created later don't have to know about Beatrice.

The different personalities in a DID don't have to know each other, actually more likely that not they don't know about the other personalities.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855764
That's the thing, Shannon is never shown getting the brooch from this Beatrice she meets. It is first mentioned when she wants to give it back. The brooch is not a physical object. It is a representation of their DID.

Elder sister Beato is not a physical person who can give anyone physical objects. She is the witch legend herself. In other words, the idea of the witch legend gave Shannon the idea for the personality which she created.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855795
But Shannon and Kanon know that they are furniture forbidden to love.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855799
Brooch is crystallization of magic:
>"Of course, it is a crystallization of magic. However, like most magics, it can be burnt by the anti-magic toxin."
And magic is:
>"The power of belief becomes magic......"
>"And those who make others believe are witches."

In other words, Shannon just strongly believed in the witch, maybe even prayed to her like to a local deity. And in return she "gave" her confidence, determination to overcome her complexes and her fate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855799
The Brooch actually contains a remote control that delays the bomb on the island.

When they decide they wish to have fun with love, they use it. When they don't, the end comes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855811
Because they know they were created.
They probably were briefed by Kinzo and Genji, that's why they use the term "furniture".
Or it may just be in their "logic", aka Beatrice was created to be a witch and Shannon and Kanon were created to be furnitures.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855799
>Shannon is never shown getting the brooch from this Beatrice she meets.

What? No, you're either an idiot or very forgetful. Beatrice is clearly shown giving Shannon that brooch, way back in Ep2.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855834
In early magic scenes, Genji, as well as Shannon and Kanon, seem to consider themselves expendable.
Why?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855836
Would you kindly find the scene for me?

(TL note: it doesn't exist)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855830
Makes more sense. At the very least, it isn't a physical object, nor is the elder sister a physical being (or even a personality).

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855858
Nope, it's there. And hell no I'm not going back through that hell of Ep2's shitty beginning to find it. YOU find me proof that the brooch doesn't exist if you're so convinced of it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855846
Because they were created for the sake of someone, which is Kinzo.

And Shannon/Kanon don't know that "they" are sick, they may really believe that they are just homunculus.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855885
What. You're basically asking me to prove devils if you want me to prove the scene doesn't happen but refuse to read the episode.

If you want to speculate on Umineko you should be re-reading them occasionally anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855885
Well, he's right. In ep2 the brooch is first mentioned when she's returning it. In the anime however we've been shown that Beato gives it to them. And anime was carefully supervised by Ryu for the clues presentation. That proves that it's not important.

[Anonymous No.]

Just use the goddam manga, it's better than the game anyways

[Anonymous No.]

Joji is the mastermind.

After proposing to Shannon, he tells Eva about it but she doesn't approve of the marriage at all. He goes on a (love spurred) killing spree and forces Shannon to cooperate with him.

He forces Shannon to dress up as the Golden Witch and trick Maria into helping them. Kumasawa, Nanjo and Kyrie are also offered rewards by Joji to help him with his plan (They don't survive so he sends the rewards to their children instead after the incident). Kanon too, upon learning what Shannon has gotten involved in, aids her because of their close relationship but later regrets taking part and tries to oppose Joji but ends up dead. Kyrie also goes into a yandere rage and tries to take out Joji after Rudolf's death but fails.

Shannon still has affection towards Battler and, through Beatrice, tries to tell him about what Joji has been doing but Battler is incompetent and everybody dies as a result.

The sin that Battler commited six years ago to cause all of this? Getting a little too friendly with the girl Joji had his eyes on for so long.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855910
Fuck damn it, you're right. I just checked.
But yes, the anime shows her actually getting the brooch, and this was before DEEN decided to ignore everything Ryukishi said.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855910
Not quite. While R07 might have optimistically claimed that the anime would be supervised and remain true to the answer and such, very many facts are switched around and many things don't happen at all. Nobody has solved the mystery with the VN presumably, it's probably completely impossible to do so with the anime. The real question is, what clues are required to solve it and what clues are not? A vague metaphor like this is not really necessary, and changing it around slightly will not hamper the mystery.

At that point in production, had R07 thought of personifying the witch character, and adding that single line to her TIPS? But regardless of that, the real problem is when people assume this elder Beato actually exists (like doubletrice), and that she is distinct from Shkanontrice Beato. Therefore trying to deny the line of reasoning with that episode 2 Beatrice being only capable of being seen by Shannon and Kanon does not hint towards Shkanontrice because she is not the person the 'mother' created, she is just someone else, all because of this single line in Elder Beato's TIPS.

Since the Shkanontrice Beatrice is not a helpless moeblob, but a combination of Elder Beato (legend), moeblob Beato (love for Battler) and 1000 years (the sin), treating them as distinct in this manner is a mistake.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855940
Let's asume you're right, who are the 17 of Rokkenjima?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855992
>
Not quite. While R07 might have optimistically claimed that the anime would be supervised and remain true to the answer and such, very many facts are switched around and many things don't happen at all.

Or maybe certain things aren't as important as we thought they were.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856010
Everyone but Kinzo and Erika?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856025
It really depends what you mean by important. Like I said, do you really expect someone to solve the mystery with the anime? Or is it only going to be possible to look back on the anime and see that it does not contradict the truth in retrospect, since a metaphor like that being changed a bit does not matter.

Saying Elder Beato gave Shannon the pendant and therefore it wasn't Shkanontrice Beato is like saying Beatrice is just a bomb as episode 4 proves and therefore Shkanontrice Beato and Elder Beato are both lies.

That is to say, they are blurred lines, aspects of one another. All those scenes in episode 6 with elder and younger are about them thinking about how they're incomplete, and how they can form a complete Beato together.

[Anonymous No.]

In episode 5 and 6 the culprit is never on the island. Instead, the 17th person slot is filled by Erika. Pic related, it's the culprit who doesn't violate Knox 1st because he's the human Beatrice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856036
>>5856010
16*

caotcha: Rosenman Ted."

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856059
This is why 5 and 6 stop at the second twilight. It would be obvious otherwise.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856059
HUH. That's an. Interesting theory.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856059
In 6 the murderer is Erika, and thats ok.
But what about the murders in 5? If I recall correctlly, there were some deaths confirmed by the red

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856311
None of the murders in the first or second twilight happened, we don't know what happened after that but by the end of the game everyone was dead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856311
The deaths were only confirmed at midnight. You know, when the explosion happens.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856337
could you expand your theory a bit?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856059
meant to quote
>>5856369

[Anonymous No.]

Krauss died in Ep5 shortly after the phone call. Assuming 'shortly' doesn't have a very loose meaning, that's the only death we can confirm.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856369
There's an explosion at the end of the game, at midnight, right?
The trial is a 24:00 answer session. In other words, it's right at the very end of the game.
-That is the only time deaths are confirmed in red.-
In other words, the only murderer in Ep5 is that explosion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856369
A lot of people playing dead until the real culprit killed them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856379
Missquoted, sorry about that.
But, there is a letter in episode 6, right? If the real beatrice isn't on the island, why is there one?
And is there any foreshadowing that the real culprit isn't on the island and why?

[Anonymous No.]

since I don't want to disturb /jp/ making a new thread since we have an Umineko General...


Can anyone please tell me where I can download EP6's OST?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856395
The one leaving the letters isn't the -real- Beatrice, the culprit, but Shannon, who thinks she's Beatrice, or something.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856410
http://tinyurl.com/35l8zyz
Here you go.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856433
already tried that. Hence my presence here

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856441
You can find anything on Google or Rapidshare if you look hard enough.
If it exists on the Internet, you can find it on your own.
I'm sorry, but go away. Don't ask other people to find pirated things for you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856433
>>5856451
ok, ok, I thought it would be better to ask than going all "SOUCE, PLEASE ROFL!".

Guess I'll look around some more then. Nice to know I can NOT come to /jp/ and ask though

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856473
WHY WOULD YOU NEED A FUCKING OST?!!!
IT'S INCLUDED IN THE GAME, THE FILES ARE THERE FAGGOT!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856490
XD

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856490
He wants .mp3 versions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856503
google OGG to MP3

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856059
Hold on a fucking second.
Let's assume that Erika doesn't exist. Someone has to still be performing actions attributed to Erika, right?
What if this "someone" is the human Beatrice?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856490
iTunes playlist (though there{s no real reason for me to answer that). But you're right, OGG files exist in the game's folder

>>5856503
exactly. I'm pretty sure a site with all the OSTs exist exist because I was there when I downloaded EP4's.

>>5856524
working on it (though definitely a soundtrack torrent would be appreciated)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856503
>>5856524
foobar has a tool integraded to convert ogg to mp3

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856536
Erika didn't exist prior to episode 5.
Her actions didn't interfere with the game till now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856536

Erika did exist in episodes 5+6, the mysterious fate of the real Erika that fell off of the boat allowed Bern to place her on Rokkenjima for those episodes.

The reason Battler and Beatrice were able to deny her is because in the real truth of the island she did not impact it at all. In the real truth she likely just fell off the boat and drowned.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856563
"Furudo Erika", not "Erika". Look at the reds again, there IS a difference between the two if you're looking for it.
Anyway, I'm not trying to argue for or against Erika-doesn't-exist for now, I'm just saying, try and assume that it IS true, and then consider the human Beatrice theory posted above...
It could be a pretty interesting twist, no? That the person the Ushiromiyas welcomed in as a guest had been on the island from the very beginning?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856584
First of all, you clearly don't know what "let's assume" means.
Second of all, stop asserting your theory as fact.
Third of all, that still makes even less sense than Erika herself does.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856585
This "Furudo Erika" increased the population of the island by 1.
She only existed in episode 5 and 6.

But honestly I don't even know why I'm arguing about it, anyone who still think about a Beatrice who is her own person on the island is probably so fucking deluded it's no use to talk, please think whatever you want.

[Anonymous No.]

God, Erika-doesn't-exist-nonsense is the biggest waste of time out of all of theories ever. Her existence was designed from the ground up to not impact the narrative in any way. In other words, it doesn't matter if she exists or not--that's her explicity design. Therefore, any argument about whether she exists in EP5 and EP6 is masturbatory nonsense, end of story.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856601
The introduction of new elements into a closed circle story is stupid and largely impossible, and no, I don't care about "miracle" bullshit, that's magic and magic isn't real. In a closed circle time loop story, the starting elements should always remain the same.
Erika-doesn't-exist is people trying to explain her and her behavior in a way that still makes some kind of narrative sense.

>>5856607
>Her existence was designed from the ground up to not impact the narrative in any way.
That's why she can use mind control and randomly behead people, right? "Not impact the narrative" my ass.
Because she killed people (in red, even) you have to either accept her contradictory, magic-fueled existence, or attribute her actions to someone else.

[Anonymous No.]

Wait wait wait wait.
I am just reading EP6 for the first time, at the beginning. Ange /oh god how I hate her/ scene, isn't that bottlemakers scene really just a parody of shakanonfags?

[Anonymous No.]

Shkanon deniers are hilarious.

Those who believe it to be untrue are stuck in that infantile "loluminekotrollmeXD" mentality, and didn't comprehend what they read.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856677
There were no Shkanonfags before Ep6, at least not in the sense that they loudly told everyone in earshot that their theory was the undeniable and perfect truth.

I'm pretty sure Ryucakes predicted this outcome, though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856646
>contradictory, magic-fueled existence, or attribute her actions to someone else

Or just accept that she is a fucking fictional character in a fiction which was trying to beat the director of the script by creating a logical error in the story.
That's not having an impact on the narrative, only on the fucking meta-fiction part of the story that exist above the narrative of the gameboard.
Fucking moron, try to understand what Umineko is about for once.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856694
I bet you believed that Beatrice had actually become a good witch back in Ep3 too, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856696
Shkanon theory has existed since EP4 but not many believed in it and even they thought it was far-fetched

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856677
End reading episode 6 before trying to deny Shkanon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856705
>thinking EP6 is comparable to EP3.

The story is almost over. EP7 could be the last (probably won't be though). If you think everything is a red herring then you're dense.

[Anonymous No.]

ShKanon is the truth, it's not even contestable.
The problem is that it's stupid, that's why many people refused to think of it as a viable option before episode 6.

It's not a question of ShKanon being too smart for the readers, it's the contrary.
And that's one of the reason Umineko is bad, it's like an insult to the intelligence of the readers that gave so much thought into this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856699

Exactly, games 5 and 6 have only mattered because they have advanced the meta part of the story and to help the reader get closer to the truth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856699
Being the culprit is having a pretty big impact on the narrative, if you ask me.
Anyway, fuck you, cockface. I understand perfectly what you think Umineko is about, and I choose to see it a different way than you.
If the entire gameboard is fictional, and for Erika to exist in any way, it would have to be, then where's our guarantee that there's a human culprit/human version of events to begin with? Anything is possible in fiction.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856714

doesn't matter.
if Shkanon is true, I'm done with Ryukishi. I thought he was a good author, but pulling that card? no thanks

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856723
Two episodes to go and the truth has been revealed to us? Bull-fucking-shit.
>>5856724
>ShKanon is the truth, it's not even contestable.
Sure it's contestable. Otherwise, I wouldn't be contesting it.
It's not the truth until it's stated in red. Until it is, I will fight for an answer that doesn't treat me like a complete idiot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856709
Bomb theory has also existed since EP4 but even less people believed in it than Shkanon. And the bomb theory turned out to be right.

[Anonymous No.]

well, after a fashion, I DID get my OST (using the game's files and an OGG to MP3 program I found), so I GUESS I should thank whoever said that. Not the nicest way to help, but I'm thankful

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856729
No, you don't understand shit.
Erika wasn't being the "culprit".
Umineko isn't about finding the murderer per se, it's about finding what is the truth being the illusion that made the 2 days into a closed cirle Schroedinger style.

Erika murdering people didn't matter for her simply because it's a game, creating a logical error to trap the gamemaster is just one quick and loveless way to destroy the illusion, that's all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856740
Bomb theory isn't completely fucking retarded, though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856739
>It's not the truth until it's stated in red

It won't be. Ryukishi07 has said that he's not going to give away the answers like with Higurashi. Instead he'll end it with so many clues that anybody can figure it out if they think about it.

Pretty hard to make Shannon=Kanon more obvious without outright saying it.

[Anonymous No.]

Read this and tell me ShKanon isn't fucking obvious

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856746
She killed people, so yes, she's a murderer and thus a culprit. And "I killed them because it's a game" is the magic explanation.
If the explanation of events, regardless of whether or not it involves a witch, makes no sense in reality, it cannot be the true answer.

>it's about finding what is the truth being the illusion that made the 2 days into a closed cirle Schroedinger style.
Well, the only reason Umineko is a closed circle at all is because of the explosion at the end. I really don't see where you're going with this, but maybe that's because I'm a "fucking moron".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856743
You're welcome. Also, this is 4chan. Expect helpfulness but not without calling you a faggot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856748
A bomb is more out of place in Umineko than Kanon and Shannon being the same person. Umineko has shown to be full of illusions and already did one with Kinzo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856750
>Ryukishi07 has said that he's not going to give away the answers like with Higurashi.
If he actually does this, it means he doesn't actually know the answer himself, and he was just bullshitting and letting his fans write the story the entire time.
But that's not exactly what he said, so we're still okay.

>>5856758
Hmm, nope. Still not obvious. It could mean a lot of things.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856750
I know he said that. But it's a shit view. It's like ending umineko right now. Thats not what a good author should do. But again, R07 seems shittier the more stuff he releases. Shakanontrice is a shit and if it turns out to be true, R07 is by analogy shit writer.

>captcha rebuff view.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856782
Why is a bomb out of place? What better way to hide evidence of a crime and create an eternal catbox than DESTROYING EVERYTHING?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856783
>Featherine talked about an answer session. Does this mean that you plan to show in detail the answers behind the tricks and the culprit?

Ryuukishi: About that. For example, in an online game, let's say that there's an ultra-rare item that you have to work really hard to obtain. If that item suddenly becomes easy to get in an update patch, you'd be annoyed and want to get all that wasted time back, wouldn't you? (laughs) In Umineko, if we show in detail how all the tricks work and who the culprit is, people who have reasoned it out and found their own answer will wonder 'What was the point of all my efforts figuring it out?!', so I'd like to create a slight gap between those who have reached the answer and those who haven't.

If this tale were to tell you the answer so plainly that you didn't have to think about it, it would no longer be a game.

For that reason, I want to let people who have thought everything out be confident that the answer they have found is the right one. This may give further hints to those who still haven't figured out everything, but they will not be able to understand the one final point...

That is how I want to write. That is why this work called Umineko is a 'game'.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856788
>Thats not what a good author should do.
Mysteries, traditionally, end with the detective calling everyone together, explaining all the tricks and then accusing a culprit. (Or not, as the case may be.)
That is how Umineko should end. Traditionally. But it won't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856783
WAIT
Now, if ryukishi did that, it would be awesome. He put out a framework, let fans do the rest. It's our mystery. Too bad Shakanontrice were selected.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856812
No, that's fucking retarded.
And you are an idiot for thinking it's a good idea, especially with a work of the level of Umineko

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856802
And this is why he is a shitty writer. I am done with him in that case. What's the point?
If you get an ultra rare item, you can prove it, you can show the boss is there and the item you've got is yours? No, what if you get something else? What if you hacked your game? Only people who can tell you really got ultra rare item is game creators. And if they don't, no one can.
And, by doing that, Ryukishi just made a very long cliffhanger shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856802
He contradicts himself in his latest interview, where he says Ep7 will give a "very merciless answer".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856849
He'll probably give some answers but not all

Like how he gave away the bomb answer

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856829
Good job explaining why it would be terrible. That was very well worded and changed my opinion completely! It was extremely moving.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856860
whats the point of not giving the answers for lets say drawings? Why are they in there?
If there is no answer for it, then there is no question. It shoudln't be there. It's a huge filler shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856607
People only bitch about it because they stupidly try to use her existence as a smoking gun for Shkanon when the question of Erika's existence has absolutely nothing to do with Shkanon either way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856881
They use the Erika doesn't exist theory to get around the red that there's only 17 people including her.

If it's 17 with Erika that makes the real number 16. Which pretty much proves Shkanon. So they try to argue that Erika doesn't exist so the number the real number is still 17.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856896
There is huge contradiction with red too.

>Hello I am Erika. I'm 18TH PERSON
>No, we are only 17.

Two reds = contradiction

[Anonymous No.]

>>5855043
No, episode 6 is a confession. I don't know how much more clearly it can be spelled out at this point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856860
The only things I really DON'T see him answering directly are the closed rooms.
We will get an answer of "who the culprit is" in some way, regardless of what that interview said. It'd be beyond foolish not to.
>>5856881
Actually, the two do have to do with each other.
Remember that annoying final red?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856896
Erika doesn't exist has nothing to do with "getting around" anything. It's what's implied right out by the fucking narrative. Erika is the 18th person. The number is the same, 17, with or without her.

Shkanon is sledgehammered to be true and Erika not counting is sledgehammered to be true. I don't care how you make sense of it after that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856903
And yet lots of things that were proved untrue were spelled out in clear detail.
Why. Do you people think. The be-all and end-all answer. Is being handed to us when there's still two episodes to go?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856900
And this contradiction is what wiped out Erika and reveals the truth about herself that she had to face. Erika established herself as Person 18. Battler and Beatrice essentially countered with THERE IS NO PEROSN 18.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856923
no, it doesn't
she said it in red.
it is true.
she is 18th person, with 17 people only.
But she can't not exists if she is counted

[Anonymous No.]

They say "even if we welcome you, the number of people is 17"

Erika can't be the 18th person.

[Anonymous No.]

It's not like the closed rooms of Umineko are complicated.

The hard part about them come from the narrative that work against the readers rather than the "cleverness" of these rooms.
Otherwise most of them are solved by run of the mill trick like ZOMG SHE IS FAKING HER DEATH AND THE DOCTOR IS AN ACCOMPLICE or IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A CLOSED ROOM BUT THE ROOM WASN'T REALLY CLOSED or my favorite LET'S DISGUISE THIS CORPSE LIKE MYSELF, WITH A WIG AND A BIG HOLE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE HEAD NOBODY WILL KNOW THE DIFFERENCE.

[Anonymous No.]

Erika says she's the 18th human.

Does the dead Kinzo stop counting as a human?

Battler and Beatrice say there are 17 people with Erika

[Anonymous No.]

You guys don't know how red texts work or what?
Red text is factual, red text can't lie, 2 red text can't be opposed.
You can't use a red text to overrule another preceding red text.
What happened at the end of episode 6 was THAT BOTH WERE TRUE.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856935
yet it's in the red. it is true

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856942
Well, closed rooms can't exist without magic, right?
So the trick is not "how the closed room was constructed", but rather "how the room was constructed to look like it was closed".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856920
Hey, I HATE the idea of ShKannon myself.

But there's no other way I can justify the love trial. I know it's not just all bullshit, it took up a large portion of the episode for a reason. And there's only one reason that makes sense.

I am not so stubborn as to deny a plausible theory just because I hate it.

Also, we don't know if there will be an episode 8. Obviously, there are still loose ends, like the disaster that kills the survivors at the end, and the back story for characters like Asumu, the original Beatrice, and Kinzo.

However, episode 6 was about one thing: exposing Beatrice's "heart." The Beatrice that is involved with Battler, that is. There is no more mystery there, only a confession. It says that at the beginning.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856959
And this is why I think Ryukishi planned this fucking shitstorm.
He's probably laughing at all of us while chilling with attractive women and drinking expensive wine right now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856934
>>5856935
Except she is the 18th person. Look at the context, people, this isn't hard. She is INTRODUCING HERSELF. She is spelling out to you the PREMISE OF HER CHARACTER. And she knew that when she did that, Battler and Beatrice would counter with the truth about herself that would wipe her out.

Ronove is a demon butler.
There are only humans.
Ronove doesn't exist.

Erika is Person 18.
There are only 17 people.
Person 18 does not exist.

Works the same way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856974
Ronove existence is never said in RED though.
Get better examples, and a brain will be a plus.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856959
Again, this isn't hard when you look at the context. Erika's red is not in the context of establishing how many people are on the island. She is introducing herself and her roles, which include "being the 18th person". Battler and Beatrice tell her there are only 17 people. The possibility of the 18th person, Erika, then gets wiped out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856968
Many Shkanonfags loudly claim that the mystery is already solved, since Beatrice's heart was the central puzzle.
And I don't deny Shkanon because I hate it, although I will admit that I do feel that way. I deny it because it just doesn't -quite- work. There's still too many contradictions, too many questions it can't answer that it should.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856984
Learn to red.
Red text isn't about context, it's not about sentiments.
She said it therefore it's true, that's all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856985
>There's still too many contradictions, too many questions it can't answer that it should.
Like what? Because I see nothing

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856981
I never said anything about Ronove existing, smart guy, that's the point. But Ronove could legitimately say, in INTRODUCING HIMSELF, "I am a demon butler."

Except demons don't exist, and Ronove doesn't actually exist. It works the same way with the 18th person.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856985
Aside from people in the family being so dense they don't realize there's only one person when there should be two, I can't see any contradictions that ShKannon creates that can't be hand-waved.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856991
Okay, so Erika and Battler and all were wasting time every time they bothered to do shit like definition check and think in terms of the possibilities of wordplay tricks and shit. Got it!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856984
BUT SHE SAID THAT IN RED:
IT'S THE TRUTH
YOU CAN'T HAVE TWO TRUTHS THAT CONTRADICTS THEMSELVES. DO YOU FUCKING GET IT?
PROBABLY NOT, HERE IS AN EXAMPLE:

I SAY, IN RED THAT I HAVE TWO APPLES.
YOU THEN SAY IN RED THAT I HAVE NO APPLES.

WHY SUDDENLY YOU HAVE HIGHER RED OR SOMETHING?

BOTH ARE TRUE, AND BOTH ARE CONTRADICTORY TO EACH OTHER = FAIL WRITING.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5856996
Are you that stupid?
Erika introduced herself IN RED.
It's completely different from Ronove or whatever introducing themselves.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857003
That's what I mean. In a perfect theory, we shouldn't be able to just handwave anything.

The question of how many people in the family even know about Shkanon is probably the biggest problem I can think of, but there's more.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857004
Wordplays is about the phrasing.
Like Beatrice using words like RESSEMBLING when she talking about how people died in episode 3.
Or her talking about the closed room of the chapel in episode 2 in great detail yet never ever saying that the chapel was actually closed.
Things like this.

It has nothing to do with the factuality of the red text.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857007
Jesus Christ.

Erika and Battler and Beato were not using the same phrase or talking about the same thing. Erika does NOT say "There are 18 people on the island." She only says, "I am the 18th person." SHE IS ONLY TALKING ABOUT HERSELF.

Battler and Beato then tell us, whether she's the fucking 18th or not, THERE ARE ONLY SEVENTEEN PEOPLE. Erika being the 18th is perfectly, legitimately true. But Erika the 18th does not exist on the island.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857018
Higurashi had hand-waving with Hinamizawa Syndrome. Some things weren't even properly explained. Why the Yanimu attacked Keiichi in Onikakushi and why they removed the marker off the note.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857009
And she is designed as a fake 18th person the same way Ronove would have been designed as a fake demon butler. Again, this isn't hard. Erika was knowingly suicidebombing herself in that last episode. She knew exactly how Battler and Beatrice would counter her, and how, and what it meant. That last duel was her deciding to get erased on her own terms, but owning up to the truth about herself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857026
And then on the other hand we have shit like CORPSES ARE NOT CORPSES LOL

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857028
you retarded fuck.
It's not about unrelated counting you ass.
LOOK
here is the red text line:

I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

18TH HUMAN ON ROKKENJIMA.

here is the second text:

Even if you do join us- There are 17 people.

THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT SAME THING = CONTRADICTION.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857018
Well, I am not expecting there to be one big perfect solution that solves everything without a bit of stretching. Heck, they even introduced that concept with the idea of logic errors in episode 6--that sometimes things have to be rewritten a bit later based on information not revealed in order to make the truth still work. The mystery is too convoluted.

If you look at the mystery from a perspective that accepts ShKannon=Beatrice as truth, it quickly becomes evident that it was planned all along.

Anyway, every alternative to ShKannon I've seen presented requires even more hand-waving and stretching of the truth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857038
yamainu you faggot.
YAMA = mountain INU = dog = jackal
sigh

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857053
"I am the 18th human on Rokkenjima" is NOT the same thing as "There are 17 people." Erika lost that duel. The latter overwrote the former and "Erika the 18th" was erased. Because Erika was only establishing herself and her own role, AS SHE TOLD YOU RIGHT OUT GOING INTO THE DUEL.

No wonder Ryukishi hates everything so much.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857061
Forgive for not memorizing how to spell words I seldom use.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857038
It was Oiishi who removed the marker and part of the note. He didn't want people to think of K1 as a lunatic.
I have no idea why the Yamainu attacked him, though. Maybe because he was clearly going L5 and it's their job to restrain people like that.

[Anonymous No.]

Erika and BattlerxBeato aren't talking about the same thing at all.

Erika is talking about the number of visitor.
BattlerxBeato are talking about the number of humans on the island.
Surely you guys can see the difference.
Protip = nothing say in the definition of a visitor that he has to be alive.
Human/people though are "erased" of the head count if they are dead from the beginning even if their corpse is on the island, as shown by Kinzo.

Surely you guys can solve this

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857063
Do we have to repeat shit ad nauseam?
Red text can't replace another red text.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857067
another faggot
IT'S OOISHI
Oo = big Ishi = stone = his name
Not oiishi

[Anonymous No.]

>Erika's bullshit again

Oh god, why can't people get a simple cat-and box?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857053
These statements are noncontradictory in English.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857075
This. Erika's body could have washed up on Rokkenjima, and until it was said it red that she was dead, you could say she was alive. Battler and Beato just confirmed that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857073
No red text was replaced. Both statements were true. The problem is, both statements being true = Erika erased, doesn't exist, no room for her on Rokkenjima.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857084
That's not how red text works, once again.
Thankfully that shit will end in 10 days, fucking Umineko fags seem to get more and more stupid with time

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857095
Okay, if you want to ignore what was outright handed to you by the story in giant neon glowing letters because you arbitrarily decided in your head "bawww but that's not how red text works bawwww!"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857071
Yes.

If a corpse is claimed to be human, the statement is correct if it is the corpse of a human. However, it does not need to be counted among the people/humans in a location.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857099
Says the guy who keep denying ShKanon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857074
Oh, sorry. I was never quite sure how to spell that. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857104
I don't deny Shkanon, smart guy.

Like I keep saying, Shkanon and Erika not existing have nothing to do with each other. Both are sledgehammered into you in EP6. If you say one is implied, you have to acknowledge the other is too. Stop trying to drag irrelevant Shkanon shit into what is supposed to be Erika's noble last stand in facing the truth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857122
>Shkanon and Erika not existing have nothing to do with each other.

Then you have an extra person.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857122
Erika not existing is only something that has to do with the meta-fiction part of the story.
Oh you must have missed the bigass neons, sorry
The reason you hold so much importance in this Erika doesn't exist nonsense is simply because you don't understand how Umineko works, talk about missing the obvious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857133
I don't care how you make sense of it. Say there's an extra person, or wring your hands about personalities counting in different ways, or something else. But the story is crystal clear in both implications.

[Anonymous No.]

It's NOT hard to understand:
Human = body on the island, including both living people and corpses at the starting of the games
People = living people present on the island at the beginning of all game
So Erika is the 18th HUMAN, but even including her there are 17 people, since a corpse does not enter in the people count.

[Anonymous No.]

Holy shit you retards just don't get it do you?

Alive or dead.

Existing or not.

It doesn't fucking matter.

Erika's sole contribution to the mystery was her arguements.It's a fucking cat box, and it doesn't even matter what's inside.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857136
Once again, the only reason Erika's existence gets so much shit is because people try to use it as a Shkanon smoking gun, which is bullshit. Shkanon had nothing to do with what was happening in Erika's last duel either way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857136
Then how does it work, fuckwad?
>>5857138
I agree with this guy, he has the right of it.
Besides, pony.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857149
Yeah, and at the end of EP6, the catbox was opened and the incorrect answer was erased. But some people can't seem to wrap their heads around that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857149
You mean those retarded arguments she cheated in that trial with?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857152
Actually, you might be able to use the final red like "even if we accept that you're the 18th human, you're dead, so there's 17 people alive" to get around ShKanon. Maybe that's why it pisses people off.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857171
You can use it that way, but I don't personally think that's right. Like I said, both implications are crystal clear in the story. The last scene was about Erika and no one else. A lot of other things in the ep, regardless of person count, are screaming Shkanon.

It'd be nice if people tried making theories on what the story is actually giving them instead of forcing a stupid either/or situation out of both points when that's not what's going on at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857171
>even if we include, there's only 17 people. the only island only has 16people.
Reading comprehension, do you know it?
Sure is delusion denialfag.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857190
I like how you completely make up the last part and plug your ears and totally ignore everything in the story that's telling you exactly what that red actually means.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857185

[Anonymous No.]

Retards, retards fucking everywhere.

Here is the answer.
Umineko as a whole is just a slighly modified version of a D&D game.
Heart of Beatrice = rule book
Piece = NPC
Game master = game master

In episode 1 to 4, the game was between Battler and Beatrice.
Though Battler couldn't influence his piece directly, there was a special rule that made the gamemaster forced to show a reliable truth when Battler's piece was narrating.

In episode 5 and 6, Bern introduced a new piece through a loophole.
One of the rule of the game says that piece can't act based on their nature, or in simpler term the NPCs all have their own AI that can't be modified.

But the Erika NPC/Piece didn't have an AI since she came as a surprise.
So Bern gave her a hax AI that was completely tailored to fight it out.
Erika did exist without a doubt in the game, after all a game can't go if the gamemaster doesn't have someone to play with.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857185
I dunno if I buy it either because I don't necessarily think Shkanon is untrue. Just saying it's possible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857200
This is dumb and supported nowhere but in your own head.
It also neatly removes any emotional stake anyone might have in the story, so no.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857196
What are you talking about?

They've always said "There are no more than X"

The last red says "even if we welcome you, there are 17 people"

If it's 17 with Erika then the number is 16 without.

The real number of people on Rokkenjima is 16. After 6 EPs we've finally reached the real total.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857200
Wow, this is incredibly stupid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857211
Get some reading comprehension.
Episode 6 wasn't even subtle about this

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857226
"Even if". EVEN IF.
Reading comprehension, faggot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857226
No. What it means is with or without Erika, there are 17 people, because the truth about Erika is that she never made it to the island alive.

Look at the context and stop thinking the isolated red is the only thing that matters.

Erika states she must face the real truth about herself
Erika establishes herself as Person 18
Battler and Beato tell her only up to Person 17 exists
Erika is erased
Erika knew going in that this would be the result

You should be able to solve this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857226
The idea is what this guy >>5857146 said. She's the 18th human(includes people that are alive and corpses), but there are only 17 people alive. It's pretty much confirmed by the TIPS that she died in the storm, so if you assume she washed up on Rokkenjima's shore that would still make her the 18th human on the island.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857246
Erika says she's the 18th human. There's no proof that Kinzo's corpse doesn't count. Kinzo is still on the island, albeit dead. Battler and Beatrice don't say human, they say there are 17 people with Erika.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857261
Beatrice explicitly lowers the count by 1 for Kinzo after it's exposed that he exists only as a corpse.

Again, why do people keep trying to drag all this irrelevant shit into what's supposed to be Erika's noble last stand in choosing to face her own truth?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857269
Erika isn't Beatrice. Just because Beatrice excludes Kinzo doesn't mean Erika has to.

[Anonymous No.]

You guys are stupid.
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

Including you it's 17 people

These 2 lines are completely different, they aren't contradictory in any way.
18th human =/= there is 18 human

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857246
If there's anything that Ep6 taught us, it's that red can't be used in isolation, what with Battler's constant "I acknowledge it".
Why do people refuse to see this?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857292
I hated that Battler did that instead of confirming it normally. I wouldn't have accepted it if I were Erika.

[Anonymous No.]

We're autosaging again.

New thread?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857307
Sure why not.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5857394
Guess I'll make it, then.

[Anonymous No.]

New thread:
>>5857417