Breaking down Dine and Umineko

[Anonymous No.]

>1. The reader must have equal opportunity with the detective for solving the mystery. All clues must be plainly stated and described.

-Knox 6th, 8th and 2nd, reinforce this.

>2. No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.

-Pretty sure Ryukishi broke this one

>3. There must be no love interest. The business in hand is to bring a criminal to the bar of justice, not to bring a lovelorn couple to the hymeneal altar.

-Bad End for Beato, Shannon, Kanon, George and Jessica is guaranteed

> 4. The detective himself, or one of the official investigators, should never turn out to be the culprit.

- Knox also reinforces this.

> 5. The culprit must be determined by logical deductions — not by accident or coincidence or unmotivated confession. To solve a criminal problem in this latter fashion is like sending the reader on a deliberate wild-goose chase, and then telling him, after he has failed, that you had the object of his search up your sleeve all the time. Such an author is no better than a practical joker.

-Knox 6th and 8th reinforce this.

[Anonymous No.]

and then..

[Anonymous No.]

>6. The detective novel must have a detective in it; and a detective is not a detective unless he detects. His function is to gather clues that will eventually lead to the person who did the dirty work in the first chapter; and if the detective does not reach his conclusions through an analysis of those clues, he has no more solved his problem than the schoolboy who gets his answer out of the back of the arithmetic.

-Battler is incompetent, this rule was broken.
>7. There simply must be a corpse in a detective novel, and the deader the corpse the better. No lesser crime than murder will suffice.

-Someone must die, no matter what, and they must be murdered ex. George in episode 4

>8. The problem of the crime must he solved by strictly naturalistic means.

-Magic is forbidden, Knox's 2nd.

>9. There must be but one detective — that is, but one protagonist of deduction

-Obvious

>10. The culprit must turn out to be a person who has played a more or less prominent part in the story — that is, a person with whom the reader is familiar and in whom he takes an interest.

-Gohda isn't the culprit, neither is Asumu

[Anonymous No.]

>11. A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion.

-Teatrice, Shkanontrice, Shkanon, shannon, Kanon and the other servants can't be the main culprit, they can be accomplices, but not the culprit.

>12. There must be but one culprit, no matter how many murders are committed. The culprit may, of course, have a minor helper or co-plotter; but the entire onus must rest on one pair of shoulders.

-One culprit throughout all stories, ryu probably broke this one

>13. Secret societies, camorras, mafias, et al., have no place in a detective story.

-Mariage Sorciere has no impact on the murders

>14. The method of murder, and the means of detecting it, must be be rational and scientific.

-Backed up by knox as well

>15. The truth of the problem must at all times be apparent — provided the reader is shrewd enough to see it. By this I mean that if the reader, after learning the explanation for the crime, should reread the book, he would see that the solution had, in a sense, been staring him in the face-that all the clues really pointed to the culprit — and that, if he had been as clever as the detective, he could have solved the mystery himself without going on to the final chapter. That the clever reader does often thus solve the problem goes without saying.

-Definitely in, this has been stated several times that the game is solvable by ep 4, ep 5 incompetent guy solved it.

[Anonymous No.]

Not bad...any more?

[Anonymous No.]

>16. A detective novel should contain no long descriptive passages, no literary dallying with side-issues, no subtly worked-out character analyses, no "atmospheric" preoccupations. such matters have no vital place in a record of crime and deduction. They hold up the action and introduce issues irrelevant to the main purpose, which is to state a problem, analyze it, and bring it to a successful conclusion. To be sure, there must be a sufficient descriptiveness and character delineation to give the novel verisimilitude.

-Ryu broke this one

>17. A professional criminal must never be shouldered with the guilt of a crime in a detective story. Crimes by housebreakers and bandits are the province of the police departments — not of authors and brilliant amateur detectives. A really fascinating crime is one committed by a pillar of a church, or a spinster noted for her charities.

-Doesn't really apply, however puts suspicion on Jessica

>18. A crime in a detective story must never turn out to be an accident or a suicide. To end an odyssey of sleuthing with such an anti-climax is to hoodwink the trusting and kind-hearted reader.

-Broken when Beatrice offed herself in episode 4

>19. The motives for all crimes in detective stories should be personal. International plottings and war politics belong in a different category of fiction — in secret-service tales, for instance. But a murder story must be kept gemütlich, so to speak. It must reflect the reader's everyday experiences, and give him a certain outlet for his own repressed desires and emotions.

-None of this world peace bullshit that Amakusa is doing by killing Ange applies to the actual game.

[Anonymous No.]

Nobody cares about your shitty "analysis". Everyone with a brain can do as much.

[Anonymous No.]

>13. Secret societies, camorras, mafias, et al., have no place in a detective story.
>-Mariage Sorciere has no impact on the murders

I know what you mean, but it's still important as a part of the mystery of the "Golden Witch", the one told by/to the servants and the one personifying her (Shannon, I'm looking at you).

[Anonymous No.]

I though its been stated in game that not all knox rules are in play here and this isn't a traditional mystery.

The way Erika insults current mystery genre by saying its the same old tricks reused over and over again implies that Ryu is doing something different.

[Anonymous No.]

>20. And (to give my Credo an even score of items) I herewith list a few of the devices which no self-respecting detective story writer will now avail himself of. They have been employed too often, and are familiar to all true lovers of literary crime. To use them is a confession of the author's ineptitude and lack of originality. (a) Determining the identity of the culprit by comparing the butt of a cigarette left at the scene of the crime with the brand smoked by a suspect. (b) The bogus spiritualistic se'ance to frighten the culprit into giving himself away. (c) Forged fingerprints. (d) The dummy-figure alibi. (e) The dog that does not bark and thereby reveals the fact that the intruder is familiar. (f)The final pinning of the crime on a twin, or a relative who looks exactly like the suspected, but innocent, person. (g) The hypodermic syringe and the knockout drops. (h) The commission of the murder in a locked room after the police have actually broken in. (i) The word association test for guilt. (j) The cipher, or code letter, which is eventually unraveled by the sleuth.

-Eva is innocent in Episode 3 ( aside from possibly shooting Battler)
-Ep 3, 2nd twilights and beyong, the murder are built around this rule, if it's in place we have the answer for everything past the first twilight

-Eva is not the culprit, neither is Hideyoshi
-that leaves only one person responsible for Nanjo's death (aside from shkanontrice, which we shouldn't have to use)

[Anonymous No.]

Furthermore for VD rule two:

The culprit is responsible for the illusion of Beatrice, the accomplices are following along with that plan

[Anonymous No.]

>>5823399
Battler saw shannon's dead body, she didn't kill Nanjo.

[Anonymous No.]

so basically the following can't be the mastermind:
Natsuhi
Krauss
Battler
Eva
Hideyoshi
Kinzo
Asumu
Shannon
Kanon
Beatrice if she is also shannon/kanon/shkanon.
Maria
Genji
Gohda
Kumasawa
Teatrice
Most likely Rudolf

Which leaves us with:
George
Jessica
Kyrie
Rosa
Nanjo/trice

[Anonymous No.]

>>5823915
>Jessica

[Houraisan Kaguya !NEATnUrmu2 No.]

What about the one that says no body doubles?
And no Chinamen, eg, Culprit X.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5823915
Leave the Ushiromiya family to me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5823951
All bodies are guaranteed to be whom they appear to be.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5823992

>It was the black witch all along

FUCK YEAH

[Anonymous No.]

>>5823337
>11. A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion.
-Teatrice, Shkanontrice, Shkanon, shannon, Kanon and the other servants can't be the main culprit, they can be accomplices, but not the culprit.

You can't rule them out with that rule.

Beatrice is the ruler of the knight, the gold belonged to her. SHE IS a worth-while person.
What if Kanon belongs to the Ushiromiya family (ie baby who got pushed of the cliff or w/e)? He may be an servant, but he could be a worth-while person.

Umineko is about barley slipping by the red, if you rule them out like this, you won't solve shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5824147
Best ending

[Anonymous No.]

>>5824284
Shannon and Kanon are still Servants, no matter how you may want to look at it.
R07 can always bulshit his way like saying Beatrice isn't a Servant. So, assuming Shaknontrice is true, then Beatrice would still work as the culprit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5824284
That clearly says no servant can be the (MAIN) culprit. Shanon and Kanon are not worthwhile culprits because the reader is hardly connected to them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5826007
Shannon and Kanon got a fucking lot of development and screentime, moreso than most other characters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5826007
Actually, servants are not worth-while culprits because they are far too obvious. They have keys for the entire place. They, most likely, know the entire place. Therefore, they can set-up traps, know of possible hidden places, amongst other things.

In fact, for Umineko, not only are the servants blatant suspects, but all the people who live in the island. If you ask me, none of them are worthwhile suspects. They are all too easy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5826021
Derp. Did you even read Dine's 11th rule? The reason the reader can not accept a servant as the culprit is because the first person you suspect is always the servant. They have the most to gain and the least to lose. It isn't interesting for such a person to be committing the murders.

[Anonymous No.]

You do realise those ''rules'' were just tips from an
experienced writer from it's own time to help people writing a novel that would sell....

[Anonymous No.]

>>5826229
Of course

[Anonymous No.]

Knox rule 5:
>No Chinaman must figure in the story.
Umineko Knox rule 5:
>(not included)

Knox rule 1:
> 1. The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow.
Umineko Knox rule 1:
>It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story.

Knox rule 9:
>The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader.
Umineko Knox rule 9:
>It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard.

Knox rule 2:
>All supernaural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.
Umineko Knox rule 2:
>It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique

Dine rule 11:
>11. A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion.
Umineko Dine rule 11:
>The culprit must not be a minor character, and must have an adequate motive for committing the crime.

[Anonymous No.]

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