/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:34:42 2010 No.5759497 [Reply] [Original]

So, I just finished Episode 6. I have to say it was the best Episode so far, and I'm really excited for the next. The climax was great and got several AUGH YES YES YES out of me, although it felt a little unpolished (too much "it's magic, i ain't gotta explain shit" but I guess that's just the switch from mystery to fantasy) it was still very intense. The new tracks were all great, it has the best OST so far in my opinion. Even the Tea Parties were above average; the ???? made me feel like I was reading Higurashi all over again.

What did /jp/ think?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:35:42 2010 No.5759507 EP1 is better

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:35:42 2010 No.5759508 It's shit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:36:42 2010 No.5759516 What do you think the answer to the closed room is OP?

>>	the professional crackhead Sat Jul 24 02:36:42 2010 No.5759519 crack is cheaper than anime

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:36:42 2010 No.5759520 Reported.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:36:42 2010 No.5759525 >>5759516 Erika went into the wrong room.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:36:42 2010 No.5759526 The switch from mystery to fantasy? You sure missed the point. You know, that whole "magic is just an embellishment of simple human tricks" thing must have slipped right by you.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:36:42 2010 No.5759527 >>5759516 That magic is real, I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:37:42 2010 No.5759537 >>5759525 Erika going into the wrong room is an important part of Beato's heart that the duel hints at. Another accomplished reader, I see.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:37:42 2010 No.5759539 >>5759520 Why? It's a Sound Novel, I don't get what's wrong :c

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:37:42 2010 No.5759541 >but I guess that's just the switch from mystery to fantasy ...What.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:39:42 2010 No.5759551 >>5759526 I think the people that don't even try to solve Umineko and read it for the story actually get more out of it than theoryfags like us do. I know that I was enjoying it more when I still believed in magic...

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:39:42 2010 No.5759555 >>5759527 （　´_ゝ`）

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:40:42 2010 No.5759564 >>5759539 /jp/ hates umineko because it has nololis you might want to review the episode a bit more, it seems like you missed the point. don't worry though, i was the same around the first few installments.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:40:42 2010 No.5759565 >>5759539 >:c Get out.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:40:42 2010 No.5759568

>>5759551
Ignorance is bliss, they say.
To anyone who is not a retard magic clearly did not exist in Umineko from the start. The existence of Beato's game in the first place advertised that fact. Then it was drilled in for anyone who didn't get it then in 5 additional episodes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:41:42 2010 No.5759573 >>5759537 the identical rooms are an essential part of the trick used to hide rokkenjima's gold.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:42:42 2010 No.5759580 >>5759573 I'll give you a D. Fails to understand, but can give brief justification to cover failure.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:42:42 2010 No.5759582 >>5759568 I suppose I'm an idiot, since I conveniently believed whatever was shown to me, and enjoyed everything all the more for it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:43:42 2010 No.5759590 >>5759582 Yeah well R07 hates you. So there.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:46:42 2010 No.5759618 And so another thread is derailed with implied ShKShittery. How about you fags stop attacking anyone who doesn't buy the most contrived theory ever made?

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:47:42 2010 No.5759631

Newfag here, in the process or marathoning 1-6
That number, back in episode 3 written where Shannon and George were killed, 07151129, those were the times of death for Shannon and George, right? If I'm wrong, please don't tell me the right answer. It's just a hunch I had

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:47:42 2010 No.5759632

>>5759580
It's also a trick used to hide the killer and his/her identity.
Natsuhi recalled something while sitting in the closet in episode 5 I think.
Granted, it's still a contrived solution and I am desperately covering tracks, but it's really the only thing I can (bother to) think of.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:48:42 2010 No.5759640 File: 444 KB, 991x1100, uminekofordummies2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5759497 Guide for dummies on what happened at the end of Ep6.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:49:42 2010 No.5759647 >>5759632 Natsuhi just got tricked. Hideyoshi was never killed while Natsuhi was in the closet. He was just playing dead and got killed later by the real culprit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:51:42 2010 No.5759667 Where in the novel does it say there was a bomb?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:51:42 2010 No.5759668 >>5759631 You're correct in separating them into two numbers, yes. ...Add all the digits in each number together and see what you get.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:52:42 2010 No.5759670 >>5759631 I think Shannon was discovered earlier than that so no. Also the numbers were thought up before those two died. Nobody really knows what they mean yet. Only theories. You fucking slowpoke.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:52:42 2010 No.5759677 >>5759618 Come to the other thread. We were going to talk about Ryukishi's bullshit philosophy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:54:42 2010 No.5759691 1986 19 - master of the island, the years since the tale began, most important number in the tale 8 - the number of episodes 6 - the years since the sin

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:54:42 2010 No.5759693 >>5759525 Fucking Brilliant

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:56:42 2010 No.5759703 File: 410 KB, 828x621, krausstrice.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5759640

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:58:42 2010 No.5759730 >>5759703 I still hate R07 for breaking the 4th wall just to be a condescending asshole. Shkannontrice is stupid for reasons completely unrelated to the whether Umineko is a mystery or not.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 02:59:42 2010 No.5759742 >>5759730 Why do you think so many of us insult him and seacats. What he did was a cop out and a shitty way to end it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:00:42 2010 No.5759749 >>5759640 Notice how Kanon counts as different people at different times? This is why people say the theory is stupid. >>5759691 So many number games are being played here. It's awesome.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:00:42 2010 No.5759752 >>5759631 Hello newfag. Have you noticed yet that Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice are the same person?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:01:42 2010 No.5759759 >>5759730 Well, then the answer can't be Shkanontrice, can it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:02:42 2010 No.5759763 >>5759640 Do you have any more of these saved? >>5759730 >>5759742 It's still not as bad as LOLBRAINPARASITES

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:03:42 2010 No.5759774 File: 208 KB, 640x624, room_ib4f.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5759763

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:04:42 2010 No.5759781 File: 147 KB, 706x370, murderbylolpersonality2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5759763 Yeah I made them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:04:42 2010 No.5759782 >>5759763 >It's still not as bad as LOLBRAINPARASITES No. Hinamizawa Syndrome made sense in the end. Shkanontrice really does not. Not yet.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:04:42 2010 No.5759786

>>5759763
>It's still not as bad as LOLBRAINPARASITES
it wasnt even bad, just weird. shkannontrice really is pretty bad..well, at least it had foreshadowing.
but anyway, its not like shkannontrice is 100% sure yet. you can probably still solve Umineko without it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:05:42 2010 No.5759792

>>5759752
It's hard not to, since it's everywhere.
>>5759668
13-13 huh? This is gonna sound asinine but I thought about adding them up, like the game suggests but that just made me question 0. Since it's at the start, it doesn't have any purpose. For the purpose of addition, it could've been left as blank and had the same effect, so 0 being there means it has to be something that could only be achieved by having 0 there, like a date. That was my thought process anyways, and the only other thing is that it's there to set an even amount of numbers, so the numbers must mean something separately

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:06:42 2010 No.5759795

>>5759537
Taking things out of the context again, I see. The duel was indeed supposed to be a 'hint to the closed room', but in the end Beato used Endless Shenaningans to make Battler escape - the actual heart revealing move was never used and even Battler mentions that her solution was pretty damn cheap.

Shkanontrice is a minor theme which might as well be stomped to the ground just like Aliens and 90% of Takano's major theory was in Matsuribayashi. Readers were led to believe in that shit, but in the end, nothing more that "a strong environmental parasite in frontal lobe, producing wrong hormones" could be actually true.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:07:42 2010 No.5759815 >>5759795 Actually he said it was damn nasty and made it not like a mystery, not cheap. Which is what Shkanontrice does.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:07:42 2010 No.5759816 So, the ???? tea party... This pretty much confirms Bern=Rika, right?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:08:42 2010 No.5759822 >>5759590 You know, you can read it twice, first enjoying the story as presented, then trying to think and solve it, right? Faggot.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:08:42 2010 No.5759823 >>5759815 "there never was a mystery via erika walked into the wrong room" is pretty fucking cheap too, and dispels the mystery (literally).

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:09:42 2010 No.5759828 File: 12 KB, 188x209, 1247695528562.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5759816 It confirms that Bern is only someone pretending to be Bern/Rika while Super Hanyuu is not Super Hanyuu at all but the real Rika.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:09:42 2010 No.5759830 >>5759816 did you really need to read it to confirm that?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:10:42 2010 No.5759837 >>5759774 >>5759781 This first one was posted like half a year ago, almost daily. Shkanonfags confirmed for a samefag. Not that we didn't know.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:10:42 2010 No.5759838

>>5759792

Dates, detonation codes, PIN numbers. Could be all three. Could be none of them.

As for thirteens... there are thirteen sacrifices needed to open the door to the Golden Land, and although you haven't met him yet, Ep4 has a character whose name means "13"...

That number is bound to be damned important.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:11:42 2010 No.5759846

>>5759822
No you can't.
Unless you mean read each episode twice as they come out.
If you mean read it, then go back and marathon all the episodes later under the pretense of solving it when you have already been told pretty much everything then you're just a faggot who needs the answer handed to him

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:12:42 2010 No.5759850 >>5759830 Considering everyone used to shit all over that thought, I don't see why not.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:12:42 2010 No.5759851 >>5759815 You, sir, have no reading comphrehension. >>5759703

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:12:42 2010 No.5759854
File: 139 KB, 640x450, 9d69450edfb79daa97c022dac9398077.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5759551
I tried to keep up with guessing and reasoning, but I've mostly given up by now. The amount of curveballs that R07 keeps throwing out is just ridiculous. That, and I feel like it'd be futile as long as I'm planning on reading the translation and not the original in Japanese, since there might be nuances that I'd miss that way.

Still enjoying it though; made up for the relative disappointment of EP5 a lot.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:13:42 2010 No.5759859 So - red herrings. Any mystery worth its salt has a few of them. What do you all think are the red herrings Ryuukishi's put into Umineko?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:14:42 2010 No.5759861 >>5759837 Anti-shkanonfags are also samefag. It's the same frustrated people knowing this truth trying to convince the same frustrated stubborn people who desperately try to deny it. See the "ShKShit" guy, he posts in every second thread.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:14:42 2010 No.5759868 >>5759822 is it really that hard to only read it once, yet enjoy the story as presented AND think about it later? its not like enjoying the reading makes you unable to remember it later.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:15:42 2010 No.5759873 >>5759859 >Umineko >a mystery worth its salt hehe

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:16:42 2010 No.5759874 >>5759851 Funny coming from someone who doesn't get ShKanontrice. The entire disbelief in that is based in blockheadedness and lack of reading comprehension.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:16:42 2010 No.5759879 >>5759859 Any symbolism for E1-4 fantasy scenes is a red herring, because a lot of scenes are bound to happen differently.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:17:42 2010 No.5759881

>>5759859
It's pretty hard (if not straight up impossible) to tell which are red herrings without knowing the truth first.
That said, pretty sure almost all the red truth are red herrings designed to attract attention to "how done it" (which is easy to hide) instead of "who done it" and "why done it".

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:17:42 2010 No.5759884 >>5759846 Yes, I can. >Unless you mean read each episode twice as they come out. Who said that it's not what I do? Maybe you idiots should grow the fuck up and stop judging people, thinking that only your opinion could possibly be right.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:17:42 2010 No.5759885 Do all Umineko threads devolve into this faggotry?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:17:42 2010 No.5759887 >>5759874 See, shown his colors already.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:17:42 2010 No.5759889 >>5759859 -Man from 19 years ago -Kyrie and Jessica's phonecalls -Kinzo -Jessica in general -George's "I'm prepared to fucking kill everyone" -Kyrie's "Look how fucking suspicious I am" every episode -19th person -Person X in general

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:18:42 2010 No.5759893

>>5759874

I, for one, don't believe in Shkanontrice because a) I don't just accept whatever's handed to me anymore, b) it completely defies conventional logic, and c) God is it ever stupid.

>>5759868

It's pretty much impossible to enjoy Umineko when you're examining and second-guessing everything.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:18:42 2010 No.5759894 >>5759861 shkanontrice still relies on "mystery murderer X" to solve some (read: most) earlier crimes. It's incomplete at best.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:18:42 2010 No.5759901 >>5759859 Shkanon/trice has to be the biggest one IMO.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:18:42 2010 No.5759902 >>5759859 Shkannontrice.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:20:42 2010 No.5759908 >>5759884 I'm sorry if I view reading a whole episode without thinking about, saving the thinking for a second reading at some undefined point in time wasteful and stupid.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:20:42 2010 No.5759915
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>>5759889
> Kyrie's "Look how fucking suspicious I am" every episode

Huh, I didn't see this. In fact, she's always seemed like one of the least suspicious of the bunch to me. Elaborate?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:20:42 2010 No.5759918 >>5759868 It's not hard, but caring about the story and characters you gonna miss some small details.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:21:42 2010 No.5759919

>>5759885
No, you can have a good thread about how Kanon is Kinzo and Erika shot him through the door of the closet, like a bad kid playing hide-and-seek, which is why he doesn't exist in the room - he died. That even has a pretty strong foreshadowing, with Erika literarilly shooting into the door.

Then at about 50th post, ShKanonfag comes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:22:42 2010 No.5759933 >>5759885 Say thanks to samefaging retards/trolls preaching their shitty theory in every thread.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:23:42 2010 No.5759940 >>5759919 You mean "you can have a thread with all posters living in fantasy land deep in the forests of denial until at about the 50th post, someone feels the need to point out the inconvenient truth"

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:23:42 2010 No.5759946

>>5759915
You never read Episode 3 then?

There was a block of red text where Kyrie is shown to have completely contradicted her earlier statements about everyone staying in the guest house to survive and deliberately lured Hideyoshi and Rudolf into the mansion.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:24:42 2010 No.5759952 >>5759919 Knox's 8th. Where in Episodes 1-4 does it foreshadow that Kanon is Kinzo?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:24:42 2010 No.5759953 Now you are just flatly trolling.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:25:42 2010 No.5759960 >>5759952 Knox's 8th is the most annoying red text in the entirety of Umineko. It's like the death of intelligent theorymaking.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:25:42 2010 No.5759962 >>5759952 Knox is inapplicable without the presence of the detective.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:27:42 2010 No.5759976

>>5759952
Kinzo's title is heriditary - anyone on the conference in E4 could have it. If "someone of the people might be the man from 19 years ago" is enough, this is as well.

Also, Kanon needs a reason to go help Battler to begin with. Rudolf is obviously not a part of the E6 plot so why would they care to tell Kanon?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:28:42 2010 No.5759988 Kanon is Shannon and a "0", Erika doesn't exist, Nanjo is a woman, am I missing something?

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:28:42 2010 No.5759990

Why don't you denialfags come out with something concrete then? You know everyone hate shkanontrice but it is currently the only trick that have the evidence to back it up.

How about you come out with something not retarded just for the sake of denying it?
Erika going into wrong room is pretty much more retarded than shkanontrice in my opinion.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:29:42 2010 No.5759997

>>5759960
It's the opposite. It's the death of people coming up with and believing with theories just because they're creative and sound nice, when in reality they have little bearing on the facts, they are not foreshadowed.

It is not the goal of the author to have you reach a conclusion that is only born from your wild speculation, not review of the clues they present you. If that is the author's truth, then they have failed, because they have not properly conveyed that in their mystery.

It is a restriction on the author, not the reader. Because the author is expected to properly foreshadow their answer like this, the reader should theorize within bounds that are properly foreshadowed.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:29:42 2010 No.5760000

>>5759946
Semi-related to that scene:

20. And (to give my Credo an even score of items) I herewith list a few of the devices which no self-respecting detective story writer will now avail himself of. They have been employed too often, and are familiar to all true lovers of literary crime. To use them is a confession of the author's ineptitude and lack of originality. (a) Determining the identity of the culprit by comparing the butt of a cigarette left at the scene of the crime with the brand smoked by a suspect.

That's one of Van Dine's rules. I'm pretty sure that in Ryuukishi's case, it wasn't so much ignorance as "I wanted Battler solve the sequence in this way to give a hint that his reasoning was way off the mark."

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:30:42 2010 No.5760006 >>5759990 There is nothing else. And that's why we're grasping at straws.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:30:42 2010 No.5760011 >>5759962 You are a master of missing the point, which is unfortunately a qualification 70% of theorizers seem to have.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:32:42 2010 No.5760023
File: 49 KB, 1541x458, uminekofordummies3.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5760006
Which at the end of the day come back to shkanontrice.
People are now speculating to at least not make this look dumb in R07 part and come out with plausible reason on why they are cosplaying as two person and running around with an umbrella giving candy.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:32:42 2010 No.5760027

>>5759997

I can see where you're coming from, but I don't agree.

Just because Shkanontrice has foreshadowing does not mean it's intelligent. And frankly, I'd prefer an intelligent and creative solution that comes almost COMPLETELY out of left field to anything else.

I like being surprised. Justifications come later.

And that's why I don't like Knox's 8th.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:33:42 2010 No.5760034 >>5760011 >cites Knox, without saying anything else >declares Knox ineffective >claims that that wasn't the point

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:33:42 2010 No.5760035 >>5759990 Why don't you shkannonfags just fuck off from discussions if you have solved anything already? Congratulations, now move on.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:34:42 2010 No.5760036

>>5759960
>It's like the death of intelligent theorymaking.

I don't know what you mean. Knox's 8th helps tremendously when it comes to trying to piece together the truth about the mystery, because it narrows the huge margin of possibilities to those strongly supported by the text.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:34:42 2010 No.5760038 >>5760027 So, basically, you like Scooby Doo.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:34:42 2010 No.5760041

>>5760023

...Which is at least as difficult if not more so than coming up with an alternative to Shkanontrice.

Either Ryukishi's been bullshitting us all this time or this is finally the point that we need the "essential component" that we've all failed to grasp...

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:36:42 2010 No.5760048

>>5760006
You'd need to have a way to solve the epitaph to begin with - the epitaph is obviously related to the murder mystery.
I myself have a ton of side theories and also want to believe in Jessica being a moralfag who uses Kanon to kill people, Genji playing his role making shit complicated and Shannon being the actual killer in most of all cases.
Also, the most important question I stilll didn't get until now... why would Kanon possibly kill Natsuhi?

The theory that every single first twilight is cotrieved and someone rekills everyone is the latest one that I really, really liked.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:37:42 2010 No.5760059

>>5760027
>I'd prefer an intelligent and creative solution that comes almost COMPLETELY out of left field to anything else.
It isn't the goal of a mystery author to have crazy twists that nobody could see coming. Especially an author who acknowledges the Knox rules and therefore engages their reader in a game of thought.

You might say you would prefer a completely unexpected and unforeshadowed answer because then the story wouldn't have to involve an insane servant, but nobody could actually call Umineko a mystery in that case. If it was any other genre, it might work.

Despite all the dancing around the fact, R07 wants Umineko to be viewed as a mystery, and more importantly a mystery game, even though he does acknowledge that a lot people will scoff at the truths of it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:38:42 2010 No.5760061 >>5760048 Oh, let me rephrase: My first and foremost theory is that everyone on Rokkenjima has a motive to kill(save perhaps Kumasawa and Gohda) and the actual murderer is the one who comes out by state of affairs.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:39:42 2010 No.5760063

>>5760038

Not quite. Similar, but not quite.

The hints should be there, in the text, but they should be so subtle as to ensure that no one will ever really pick up on them. The suggestion of a clue rather than a clue itself, in other words. This is so the detective can bring them up in the end and wow everyone, including the readers.

Knox's 8th seems to deny everything except the most loud and obvious of clues, considering the way Dlanor has used it so far. And that's really what I object to.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:40:42 2010 No.5760069

>>5759976
>Kinzo's title is heriditary - anyone on the conference in E4 could have it.

This wasn't denied in red, but it wasn't confirmed either.

>If "someone of the people might be the man from 19 years ago" is enough, this is as well.

The man from 19 years ago was never mentioned in Episodes 1-4, and Ryuukishi has said the mystery is solvable with only those episodes. It's a red herring.

>Also, Kanon needs a reason to go help Battler to begin with. Rudolf is obviously not a part of the E6 plot so why would they care to tell Kanon?

Hint: Everyone knew it was a prank except for Erika.

Nothing you have presented convincingly foreshadows that Kanon is Kinzo any more than Krauss could be Kinzo or Jessica could be Kinzo. Do you have anything else?

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:41:42 2010 No.5760075

>>5760059
>R07 wants Umineko to be viewed as a mystery, and more importantly a mystery game

No self-respecting author would ever consider "crazy DID meido" to be an acceptable solution to a mystery even if it does have foreshadowing.

Ryukishi has failed from the very beginning.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:41:42 2010 No.5760076

>>5760035
That's the think. Shkanonfags haven't solved everything. At their core, most of them probably want everyone to accept what has become obvious. They want everyone to accept Shkanon as a premise, just like everyone accepts Kinzo is dead as a premise, and then work towards the full answer with it in mind. Instead, every thread turns into a squabble between this side and the side that refuses to acknowledge it no matter what. In the Shkanonfag's eyes, the deniers are trying to run without legs, by trying to solve the mystery without acknowledging an important, truthful premise.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:42:42 2010 No.5760081

I'm thinking that Erika killed Kanon somehow in the closet after he managed to save Battler. Not sure how (there was that metaphor of Erika throwing a spear into the closet which opened it up, which sounded pretty fucking suspicious), but that would work in that Kanon would stop existing in the guest room.

Seeing as how we know that dead people no longer count as people, Kanon would effectively stop existing upon his death. His life or death status was never declared. It was, however, mentioned that he entered the guest room and then shortly after stopped existing. He remains a separate person, Erika kills a 6th victim, and Shkanontrice is averted.

Well, everybody, what do you think?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:42:42 2010 No.5760085 >>5760069 >Ryuukishi has said the mystery is solvable with only those episodes. This is yet another "block" to theorymaking. You can't even suggest that an element introduced in Ep5 or 6 could be an important clue, because then someone brings this up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:43:42 2010 No.5760089 File: 275 KB, 640x481, 19 years.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5760069 Some kind of situation 19 years ago can still be important. The circumstances of Jessica's birth and Rosa seeing Beatrice die both involve that time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:44:42 2010 No.5760091 >>5760085 On the other hand, it does mean that we can solve Umineko while ignoring the Decalogue. Poisons and hidden doors for everyone!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:44:42 2010 No.5760093 >>5760081 Works well with the love duel stuff if Erika is actually Shannon. >>5760076 Many Shkanonfags I've seen here are convinced they've solved everything.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:46:42 2010 No.5760099 Shkanon =/= Shkanontrice Can we please start making this distinction, they are not both the same.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:46:42 2010 No.5760100 >>5760081 >and Shkanontrice is averted. This is the problem with nearly all theories churned out involving that room. They are made only as an alternative to Shkanontrice.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:46:42 2010 No.5760105 >>5760099 They should be the same because anyone who accepts Shkanon without Shkanontrice is missing the point perhaps even more than someone who denies both.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:47:42 2010 No.5760114

>>5760069
>1)I refuse
>2)I refuse
>3)I refuse
...

Vagueness is kind of the main point of foreshadowing.

I am, however, not talking about the man of 19 years ago at all as far, as my theory is concerned. Do you even understand how much of eristics this argument bears? Your answer is so off that it almost looks like you don't want to accept what I am saying xD

Rudolf cried and was talking way out of the range of what he should've said out loud. Yes, maybe he took hours as an actor when he were young, so he could cry at will, but saying that he "still couldn't tell Battler and Kyrie the truth" is way to much.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:47:42 2010 No.5760115 >>5760100 It's not like there's another option. That entire fucking room is set up to be an either-or. Either Shkanontrice is true or it's all a red herring made to confuse us.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:48:42 2010 No.5760119

>>5760063
>The hints should be there, in the text, but they should be so subtle as to ensure that no one will ever really pick up on them.

Two things.

1. A hint on that no one picks up isn't a hint.

2. What you consider as "loud and obvious clues" are only "loud" and "obvious" because hundreds of people have been reading and discussing them to death for years now. I'm not calling your intelligence into question, but somehow I don't think that you would have come up with everything that you know today if you were reading Umineko by yourself.

I know I wouldn't.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:49:42 2010 No.5760124 >>5760114 >xD Leave.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:49:42 2010 No.5760130 >>5760119 Fuck you, I've been supporting Shkanontrice since episode 2. Don't assume shit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:50:42 2010 No.5760133 >>5760114 >xD No wonder. Go back to Animesuki.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:50:42 2010 No.5760134

>>5760119
>I know I wouldn't.

I wouldn't have either. I didn't.

The sort of clues I'm calling "loud and obvious" is the sort of thing we're seeing in Ep6. The "hints that no one picks up on" would be those vague little contradictions and suggestions that exist in all the games that no one even THINKS of discussing, they're so insignificant.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:52:42 2010 No.5760143 >>5760130 ...Shkanon, fine, there were hints. Shkanontrice? Impossible. No one even considered it before Ep6.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:52:42 2010 No.5760145

>>5760100
Nah, not really. The best thing about that room is exactly that the solution "just makes Battler escape". In other words, Beato can rewrite the whole story as long as it works in that closed room, because she doesn't care about love for Erika and just wants to save her husbando.

Take the Kanzo thingy - you just need to make Kanon find the gold. It could've happened in the backstage of E6 for all you know.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:52:42 2010 No.5760146

>>5760134
By episode 6, R07 wants to be loud and obvious. He thinks people could have solved it since episode 4. He even hints someone exemplary could have solved it since episode 2. What he's doing now is screaming the things he only whispered in the first four episodes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:52:42 2010 No.5760152 >>5760130 >Fuck you, I've been supporting Shkanontrice since episode 2. Right. First post mentioning Shakanontrice in the archive is http://archive.easymodo.net/cgi-board.pl/jp/thread/4071089

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:53:42 2010 No.5760155 >>5760124 >>5760133 Come on, I just wanted to troll the samefag a bit. When I have to write this much text, I've gotta enjoy myself a bit, you know?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:53:42 2010 No.5760159 >>5760076 Yeah, sure. Except I've never seen you trying to solve anything with that as a premise, instead of arguing. Which proves that you either can't think about anything, so your arrogance is unjustified, or you just like to start a shitstorm.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:54:42 2010 No.5760168

>>5760143
So you want to deny it because nobody considered it? It was a well played by R07, people who thought Shkanon was true were too busy trying to fit person X in there using this as a device and ignored its actual significance. Of course, nobody wants to acknowledge that R07 did well hiding this part of the solution for this long, they just say that since it's so stupid, only absolute idiots would have thought of it. Episode 2 has plenty of foreshadowing for Shkanontrice. In retrospect, the hints are there.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:54:42 2010 No.5760171 >>5760146 au contraire, I think you just shot yourself in the foot. The entire cheese cutting scene was the best proof that ryu is telling us to think intelligently instead of going for obvious answers.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:54:42 2010 No.5760172

>>5760146

I don't buy this thinking. No mystery reveals itself like that six-eighths before the end. Even Ryukishi-look-at-me-I-can-deconstruct-detective-fiction-despite-never-having-written-in-that-genre-b
efore-07 should realize that.

Either Shkanontrice is bullshit or it's not NEARLY as important to the mystery as most people believe.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:54:42 2010 No.5760173 File: 84 KB, 755x1255, Trolls.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5760155 >lolitrolu

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:55:42 2010 No.5760180 >>5760159 You can't accept it as a premise because people will barge in and call the whole reasoning after that point stupid because it relies on that premise. So the first step is for everyone to come to terms with it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:56:42 2010 No.5760183

>>5760152
...?

Dude, do you have a point? Reading up the quotes, I can't see how this conversation has turned out this way. (Different guy here.)

I came to the Shannon = Kanon conclusion in EP2, but questioned it after one scene I'd have to replay EP3-4 to find again.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:57:42 2010 No.5760185 >>5760168 >In retrospect, the hints are there. They're not. I just read those games and trust me, they're not. Shkanon? Fine, I can see the hints. Shannontrice? Kanontrice? The hints are there. Shkanontrice? ...I don't see the damn hints.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:58:42 2010 No.5760193 >>5760173 You sound mad. Is having the last word really that important to you? Also, specially annoying samefag gets special care.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:58:42 2010 No.5760195

>>5760171
Actually, in that case, the answer in the book was the obvious one. Battler ignored the obvious because it was "too obvious" and came up with a very interesting answer that works logically with the rules, but does not have any bearing in reality.

This is essentially what the deniers have been doing. "Shkanontrice is obvious, it can't be true." With that in mind, they go and solve Battler's closed room in various ways, which work with the red (work with the rules) but ultimately have no bearing in reality (not foreshadowed).

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:58:42 2010 No.5760197 Wait a minute. I've never understood a single thing about Shkanon, or Shkanontrice for that matter. If it's not too much of a hassle, could anyone explain it to me?

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:59:42 2010 No.5760199

>>5760171
I think it's more probable that the cheese scene was there as a red herring than all of the evidence across different episodes that indicates to the contrary.

>>5760172
Shakanontrice is a key that opens the door to solve the mystery, not the mystery itself. Many, many questions, particularly with respect to episodes 3 and 4, remain unanswered.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:59:42 2010 No.5760200 >>5760152 Nobody had a stupid name for it back then, doesn't mean we didn't talk about it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:59:42 2010 No.5760202

>>5760185

To sound more clear and less stupid, I mean to say that there are no hints that ALL THREE are the same person, even thought that might be the logical conclusion in retrospect.

...In other words, I'm saying that you're right. God damn it I'm tired.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:59:42 2010 No.5760206 >>5760197 Stupid shit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 03:59:42 2010 No.5760207 >>5760195 Did we get the form of cheese? For example, is Rokkenjima a closed circle?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:00:42 2010 No.5760211 Does anyone actually LIKE Shkanontrice? I mean, even people who believe it seem to think it's retarded.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:00:42 2010 No.5760214 >>5760168 >Episode 2 has plenty of foreshadowing for Shkanontrice There really are a lot. I'm rereading it right now and it's slapping me in the face.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:01:42 2010 No.5760220

>>5760197

"Samefag."

>>5760199

If it's a key that opens the door, then shouldn't we have solved the entire mystery by now? There's so many people thinking, SOMEONE should have found the solution, right?

Oh, and Ep3 can be solved instantly via Shkanontrice. There's basically no more puzzle in that game if you accept that as a central premise.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:01:42 2010 No.5760221 >>5760180 So? You can't think because someone doesn't accept your theory? Is it a case of "Someone wrong on the Internet" or what?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:02:42 2010 No.5760222 >>5760211 No one likes Shkanontrice. Not you, not me, not the other guy reading this post.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:02:42 2010 No.5760224 >>5760211 There are two people in the whole world who actually like Shkanontrice. One of them is Ryukishi07.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:03:42 2010 No.5760228 >>5760211 Nobody likes it. There are two groups of people: -People who begrudgingly accept it as truth, despite its stupidity -People who refuse to accept it as truth, because of its stupidity

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:04:42 2010 No.5760229

Fags can't realize that R07 won't give all the replies.

episode 6 was the happy end.

episode 7 will be the true end.

And i bet we'll have theoryfags trying to deny Shkanontrice even after episode 7, if we have still more obvious evidence of it, but not any direct answer.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:04:42 2010 No.5760231

>>5760220
Episode 4 is hilarious in terms of Shkanontrice, considering that not only would Shannon have to repeatedly switch back and forth between costumes but keep applying and erasing fake tattoos while running across the fucking island in the middle of the typhoon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:04:42 2010 No.5760232 >>5760224 ...who is the other? His otouto?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:05:42 2010 No.5760237 >>5760180 If Shkanontrice is true, the entire mystery is so stupid I don't really give a shit about solving the rest of it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:05:42 2010 No.5760239 Can't wait for badass Jessica summoning Wright, denying Beatrice out of existance and jailing Battler's ass for cooperating with murders.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:05:42 2010 No.5760240 EP7 can't come fast enough. Both sides will finally shut the fuck up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:06:42 2010 No.5760243 >>5760231 Actually, considering that we have no real idea what happened in Ep4 other than the phone calls and the very little red, it's very easy for Ep4 to work with Shkanontrice.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:06:42 2010 No.5760244

>>5760231
Nobody mentions Beatrice's tattoo at all. It doesn't necessarily have to be on the leg the sprite shows it on, it could be on the same leg as Shannon's. That the two of them have a tattoo on a leg of the golden eagle is hint enough. Putting them on the same leg in the sprite might be a little obvious.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:06:42 2010 No.5760246 File: 915 KB, 1024x768, 11720820.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5760239 Fuck yes, Wright.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:06:42 2010 No.5760248 >>5760237 Blame yourself for not figuring it out 2 episodes ago like many of us did

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:06:42 2010 No.5760250

>>5760221
It would help for solving the mystery if the community with that you're working to solve the mystery would be willing to use it.

>>5760220
>If it's a key that opens the door, then shouldn't we have solved the entire mystery by now? There's so many people thinking, SOMEONE should have found the solution, right?

There probably is, but said someone has probably been drowned out in the storm of arguments that surrounds the individual episodes/closed rooms. It's why there are few, if any threads that try to formulate and agree upon a comprehensive picture of all the episodes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:07:42 2010 No.5760251 >>5760229 Ep6 ends too much like Ep3 to be the happy end. Ep7 won't be the ending, either. >>5760232 "The Aristocrats!"

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:07:42 2010 No.5760252

>>5760195
However, the question was very specifically asking "the least number of cuts", and battler came up with the correct answer that was less than the obvious answer.
Then, suppose that Ryu is asking for "the answer that is not obvious (which shkanontrice counts as)", then does that not rule out the "shkanon(trice)" solution?
It's a red herring, but you need to acknowledge that ryukishi was implying that he was asking for the unobvious solution to acknowledge that it's a red herring.
Not to mention that shkanontrice, while enticing, is just as prone to the being pronounced dead at the end of all this by the author as any other theory.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:08:42 2010 No.5760255

>>5760229
>And i bet we'll have theoryfags trying to deny Shkanontrice even after episode 7, if we have still more obvious evidence of it, but not any direct answer.

This. People keep saying how everything will be confirmed/denied in 7, but Ryuukishi has always said he won't give the answer directly.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:08:42 2010 No.5760256 >>5760224 The minimum number of people needed to create a universe is two.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:09:42 2010 No.5760260 >>5760246 Who's Wright? Not Phoenix, obviously?

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:09:42 2010 No.5760261

>>5760229
I think that E7 will be more like Matsuribayashi(gives you a lot of answers, but a little something still feels off) and E8 like Saigoroshi(the final troll).

Also, we need to get the true scenario, even if it was "shit didn't happen for two days and then the boiler exploded, which Asumu made a living off"

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:09:42 2010 No.5760262

>>5760220
Solving the closed room and who is the killer is easy as shit.
Hard part is justifying their motives and WHY?
We either doesn't have information or we can believe it is all because of LOVE.
Frankly speaking, I am hoping for a justifiable reason instead of this bullshit LOVE.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:09:42 2010 No.5760263 >>5760255 ...Which means that there is no real answer, effectively. Not answering everything in detective fiction is both against tradition, bad form, and contrary to expectations. It's not a good idea.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:10:42 2010 No.5760265 >>5759667 Execute Erika

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:10:42 2010 No.5760268 >>5760263 >It's not a good idea. I wouldn't put it past ryukishi07.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:11:42 2010 No.5760277 File: 1.26 MB, 1241x1754, ep7portl.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5760260 The guy in the blue coat. Like Dlanor, but more powerful. Will probably destroy everything in Episode 7.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:12:42 2010 No.5760281

>>5760261
>Also, we need to get the true scenario

Ep8 will be Ange writing The Truth in Hachijou's place. I'm calling it now.

Amakusa remembers that he's Battler right before shooting Ange in the face. They decide to live in Kuwadorian forever and have incest. Happy End.

>>5760262
>Hard part is justifying their motives and WHY?

Motive has always been the big problem in Umineko.

WHY would anyone do any of this shit?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:14:42 2010 No.5760289 >>5760281 Gold

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:15:42 2010 No.5760294 >>5760277 man he sure looks like keiichi

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:15:42 2010 No.5760298

>>5760263
By what i understood from his last interview, he said that he'll make it obvious who was the killer, but he wants to give those who reached the answer a prize, which is why he calls Umineko a "game". So he won't tell directly who was.
Wright will probably solve all the closed rooms, i hope.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:16:42 2010 No.5760302 >>5760289 IF Beatrice is the murderer that can't be her motive.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:17:42 2010 No.5760311

>>5760252
If you suppose he's asking that, then yes, but you don't necessarily have to suppose that he was. Battler came up with a nice answer, but it wasn't the answer of the book (the novel). He didn't have the whole information, but the rules (the red), and came to a tricky solution that's interesting but unrealistic with that. You could even say it shows the dangers of thinking only logically using those rules, without considering the entire picture. Which has the result of tossing foreshadowing out the window, or twisting foreshadowing to vaguely support your points. I've even seen the answer that three cuts represents three people, while one cut, the true answer, represents three. There are many ways to interpret that situation with the cheese, and which one of them is true, or whether it has any real great relevance at all, is a question you can't answer with complete confidence.

In the first place, the solutions people come up with do not work with the foreshadowing while subverting the obvious answer. They all throw out the foreshadowing as trolling, or untrustworthy crap, or a red herring, then reason as they please with the confirmed red. And even with the red being the only thing they consider, they may the strangest theories with it that would seem to contradict that red. For instance, Erika going into the wrong room. The red doesn't fly well with that.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:17:42 2010 No.5760313
File: 351 KB, 634x478, worldpeace.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5760289
Specifically Nazi's gold.
Real Beatrice is probably a war refugee and Kinzo named all his children after German name.

Still this doesnt explain the murder besides greed and I doubt Shkanon is after the gold.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:18:42 2010 No.5760317

>>5760298

Detective fiction, and to a lesser extent mysteries in general, are ALREADY a game, a game with a time limit, that being until you reach the last chapter where the detective lays it all bare.

Deciding NOT to lay it all bare is missing the point of the genre, I feel.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:19:42 2010 No.5760327 >>5760289 Eva and Rosa laugh about the gold possibly being a motive in episode 3. They both view the idea as pretty stupid.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:19:42 2010 No.5760331

>>5760243
>>5760231
>>5760244

Questions of importance for episode 4:

-The other main episodes have a Witch's Game (where the murders are made to look occult so as to force belief in the witch) and stakings. In Episode 4, we don't have this, presumably because something happened that made all the adults kill each other. What do you think it was?
- Why did everyone give Battler the same lie about magic and demons?
- The money in the vaults is presumably Shannon's - it would explain the whole thing about how "the gold in the Golden Land is this child's. She has no need for anyone else to solve the epitaph and give it to her etc." Should we assume that the people who got cards were bribed?
- Working off Shakanontrice means that Shannon is probably the Staker. If that's true, then what accounts for the differences (absence) of stakings we find in episodes 3 and 4?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:20:42 2010 No.5760336 >>5760317 I agree. Someone needs to tell that to R07, but it seems to be his plan regardless.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:21:42 2010 No.5760341 >>5760327 Well yeah, but it's different when the gold represents the survival of your family. See Krauss and Natsuhi.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:21:42 2010 No.5760344 >>5760302 Beatrice isn't the murderer

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:22:42 2010 No.5760346 >>5760331 I will give you the Shkanonfag argument: -LA LA LA LA LA I DON'T CARE SHKANONTRICE SHOT THEM ALL LA And will give you my personal answer: -I don't fucking know, I'm as clueless as the rest of you. ...God I hate this game.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:22:42 2010 No.5760353 >>5760344 If Shkanontrice is true she pretty much has to a be A murderer. See Ep1.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:24:42 2010 No.5760364

>>5760331
Battler POV in ep4 is very limited.
He was just fed with lies from the phone conversation.

Does anyone remember George vs Jessica duel in that episode or Kinzo/Beatrice bed scene and their significant?
I am pretty sure we can get some new insight from these scenes from what we learned in ep6.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:25:42 2010 No.5760368 >>5760353 Couldn't possibly be someone pretending to be Beatrice. Having a gold ingot doesn't prove you know the location of the gold.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:27:42 2010 No.5760382 >>5760364 Afaik japs assume the prison escape part to be true. Also, you can propably deduce something from Jessica's logical paradoxes.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:28:42 2010 No.5760389
File: 376 KB, 640x480, promises.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Okay, so tell me, why Beatrice promises to stop killings if the epitaph is solved? You can use any premise.

>R: Ordinarily, when coming up with the plot, you would want to make it so that "everyone is killed at once" [...] if the body was discovered then it would only attract more enemies. But to deliberately committing such attention-grabbing murders, this in itself must have a reason. The author keeps stating the murder methods in the EP3 TIPS for those victims whose death is unclear. That author must've been thinking about this: why is it necessary to commit murder according to the epitaph? The witch's letter has also said that as long as the epitaph is solved, then the killing would stop. It's supposed to be killing for the sake of killing, then why is there a possibility for interrupting the killings? Perhaps the existence of a magic named "Beatrice" has a method of 100% killing off the people on the island, but it stops at the 99.99% stage. Now Eva has survived. Why does the culprit (or culprits) automatically stopped at the 99.99% stage for something that can be accomplished with 100% certainty? Kirie called that "pride". When you look at the three serial murders up to EP3, you can't even tell what the culprit is thinking. Perhaps it's like the Rule X, Y, Z in the Comiket booklet. Even Bernkastel doesn't understand the rules. Maybe the truth will be left in the dark. This is the time to turning the chessboard around. You might find something by thinking about "the reason behind the culprit's action"...

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:31:42 2010 No.5760398

>>5760281
>Motive has always been the big problem in Umineko.

Has it? With how much we know now, it should be easy to apply the "chessboard thinking" strategy.

Episode 6 confirms that there's a bomb timed to midnight of the second day. If the killer just wanted to kill everyone, he wouldn't need to go out of his way to construct elaborate closed room murders with magic circles and what-have-you. Similarly, if the killer wanted the Ushiromiyas to solve the epitaph so he could snatch up the gold, he wouldn't be using a bomb that would level the mansion and a huge swathe of the surrounding land. The probable reason left to us is...

He's going ahead with all of the occultish-seeming killings because he seriously wants people to believe in the existence of the Witch (As to why he would want the Witch to be made real by belief, I think explaining this was the whole point of Episode 6).

From a certain point of view, it actually strikes a great parallel with how Takano wanted to have her grandfather's research recognized and become a God.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:32:42 2010 No.5760402 >>5760389 That didn't happen though. Eva solved the epitaph (and later, Battler and Erika, but fuck that) and the murders continued.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:33:42 2010 No.5760408

>>5760389
This heavily implied on how "Beatrice" is just enacting a fake twilight murder to make someone solved the riddle but somehow the real murderer take this chance to kill everyone.

Explained why even after Eva/Rosa found the gold, the killing continued.

I am not liking this too much though, sound too retarded and require a huge suspension of belief.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:33:42 2010 No.5760414

>>5760331
>- The money in the vaults is presumably Shannon's - it would explain the whole thing about how "the gold in the Golden Land is this child's. She has no need for anyone else to solve the epitaph and give it to her etc."
Actually, the money in the vaults are practically confirmed to be prepared by Kinzo: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/TIPS/A_Certain_Witch_Hunter%27s_Interview_Tape
>Should we assume that the people who got cards were bribed?
Probably the money were sent to all people involved, Ange received the letter too and Nonjo's son talks about ~20 safes with 100 millions and the TIP confirm 2 billion sum.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:34:42 2010 No.5760419

>>5760389

She doesn't just promise to STOP the killings, she promises to return the dead to life.

Premise: The whole thing is a cheap magic trick designed to force the relatives to work together on something for once in their lives rather than squabbling at each other.

Therefore, the killings are all supposed to be faked, through a combination of heavy makeup and realistic props, with the 'victims' under heavy sedation... but something goes horribly, horribly wrong.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:34:42 2010 No.5760420

>>5760311
Well, I was about to say "yes, he's right" from erika was a nod toward the creative side, and I'd like to think that creative and unbound by traditional stuff was one of the characteristics of these novels.
But then again, erika is the quasi-antagonist and I see where you're coming from.
...speaking of which, when zepar and furfur said watch the lovers, did they mean the scene "the lovers" when you re-read and cast the spell at the beginning of episode 6?

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:35:42 2010 No.5760428

>>5760331
>The money in the vaults is presumably Shannon's - it would explain the whole thing about how "the gold in the Golden Land is this child's. She has no need for anyone else to solve the epitaph and give it to her etc." Should we assume that the people who got cards were bribed?

This would mean that Rudolph was being bribed as well. The setup for the letters are still very strange, normally if Nanjo or Kumasawa were in on the deal, then it would have been specifically addressed to them and not their kin.
Not too sure if it's Shannon's money at all assuming that she's getting two lines of income...it's still a bit too much. And the cash was said to be illegal? She should have that in a normal account.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:37:42 2010 No.5760436 >>5760402 >>5760408 Then maybe you should think about who was aware of that the epitaph was solved, because gameboard 'Beatrice' can't just magically know about this.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:37:42 2010 No.5760437 >>5760346 >>5760364 You guys can do better. Hell, even Battler had seen through all the mysteries by Episode 5. >>5760382 >Afaik japs assume the prison escape part to be true. That's probably a huge mistake on their part.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:37:42 2010 No.5760438 EP4-5 showed that a lot of people can be forced to do things by blackmail or just plain moved around by phone. Pretty much everyone has some background shit that could be used against them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:38:42 2010 No.5760448 >>5760398 Alternatively, there's more than one killer. >>5760414 The interviewee in that TIP is pretty obviously Okonogi...

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:39:42 2010 No.5760450 >>5760364 if by new perspective you mean "ShKanontrice was humping a corpse while jessica and george killed themselves after watching the scene"...

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:39:42 2010 No.5760451 >>5760419 >no more people will die

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:41:42 2010 No.5760469 >>5760451 "I shall return everything, including the portion that has already been collected."

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:41:43 2010 No.5760462 [DELETED]

>>5759496
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>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:42:42 2010 No.5760477 >>5760450 Come on, we all know that isnt true. But think outside the box abit, who do you think Goldsmith symbolize? Kinzo is obviously dead. Can't be Nanjo so we are only left the parent of the family and there is 4 of them.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:42:42 2010 No.5760480

Alright, we know:

That the bomb is most likely connected to Battler, as his arrival is the reason people die.

That there is a bunch of fake murders going on, headed by Beatrice.

That someone knows the murders are fake and takes advantage of it to really kill the people at least some of the time.

That Kinzo probably has a secret will that the some of the servants are carrying about.(most likely the game by Beatrice)

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:44:42 2010 No.5760498

>>5760448
>Alternatively, there's more than one killer.

Definitely. I was just speaking in terms of Episode 1 (where everything goes down mostly without a hitch), but it's clear in Episode 3 especially that more than one person is using the name of "Beatrice" to orchestrate the killings (the signatures on the Witch's letters). Do you buy into the theory that each MO is tied to a different killer?

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:45:42 2010 No.5760502
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>>5760448
>Alternatively, there's more than one killer.

12. There must be but one culprit, no matter how many murders are committed. The culprit may, of course, have a minor helper or co-plotter; but the entire onus must rest on one pair of shoulders: the entire indignation of the reader must be permitted to concentrate on a single black nature.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:47:42 2010 No.5760516 Sort of off topic, were there any good theories on the letter/knock from EP5? I thought they'd mention that in EP6 again.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:48:42 2010 No.5760519

>>5760469
But that is after:
"if someone able to discover the hidden gold of this contract, Beatrice must abandon these right for all time."
And 'she keeps her promises' with the exact promise stated in the next sentences. Unless you don't want to trust white at all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:48:42 2010 No.5760520 >>5760516 The best theory I've heard is that everyone collectively decided to lie about hearing a knock, which would tie in to the whole "game that resembles Milady's but without honor/love."

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:49:42 2010 No.5760524 >>5760516 Same trick they pulled in ep2 chapel. Door wasn't locked. There is no knocks. People are just lying about it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:49:42 2010 No.5760529 >>5760516 clock in the room was set to the wrong time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:49:42 2010 No.5760531 >>5760502 'Culprit' != killer. It can be the mastermind.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:50:42 2010 No.5760537 >>5760502 Umineko doesn't follow Van Dine's rules as a whole, and that rule by itself is still somewhat questionable because of the whole "Eva shooting Battler" thing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:51:42 2010 No.5760541 File: 24 KB, 255x546, 1184314360549.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5760529 Oh goddammit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:52:42 2010 No.5760544 >>5760537 That is self defense. Lets look at it from Eva POV. Everyone on the island is dead, I am not the killer, only Battler is alive. Obviously you will think that the killer is some dude that came back after a 6year hiatus.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 04:54:42 2010 No.5760551 File: 458 KB, 800x800, 5035960.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5760537 Eva is pure and a wonderful foster mother.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:05:42 2010 No.5760600 >>5760544 Yup, same as the ending to And Then There Were None, except Eva doesn't kill herself afterwards. ..should I have spoilered that? The book is almost a hundred years old.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:21:42 2010 No.5760674 >>5760544 You've gotta explain why does he even call her the culprit in the first place, when he followed her all the time, and knew that she couldn't have murdered them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:25:42 2010 No.5760697 >>5760674 It is the same shit. Only you and her are alived at the moment. Everyone is dead. She shot Jessica and made her blind, would you think that she is the killer?

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:29:42 2010 No.5760716

>>5760674
You were told already: >>5760600

>Lombard laughed. He said: "So that's it, is it, Vera?" Vera said: "There's no one on the island-no one at all-except us two... "Her voice was a whisper-nothing more. Lombard said: "Precisely. So we know where we are, don't we?" Vera said: "How was it worked-that trick with the marble bear?" He shrugged his shoulders. "A conjuring trick, my dear-a very good one... Their eyes met again. Vera thought: "Why did I never see his face properly before. A wolf-that's what it is-a wolf's face... Those horrible teeth...

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:31:42 2010 No.5760724

>>5760697
No, in fact, the first thing that comes to mind is "We were along and they still died, so it's some fucker we never knew about killing people since the beginning, gotta stick together"

Of course, if they arrived, saw whoever killed Nanjo and Eva shot him, that's better. If it was Kyrie, there you go.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:35:42 2010 No.5760752
File: 757 KB, 656x2500, umineko_endof3rd.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5760724
None of them knew that Nanjo and Jessica were killed by someone else. The bomb was implied to have exploded when the 2 of them ran away.

They probably thought that the other person set up the explosion.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:43:42 2010 No.5760802

>>5760752
Fascinating, that's the first time I ever heard of this 'sun' part being taken seriously.
Then again, it's still

B:"You are the culprit!"
E"Yep." *bang*
...
E:"Well, now that I think of it, I am pretty sure I am not. Why the fuck did I kill him? Oh yeah, I did it because HE was the culprit! Huh, makes perfect sense now."

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:45:42 2010 No.5760815 >>5760802 This scene is from third person perspective, how do we know Eva really shot Battler a tall?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:46:42 2010 No.5760824 >>5760815 Ryu confirmed it in the interview.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:48:42 2010 No.5760841 >>5760815 >a tall This had me completely dumbfounded for like 6 seconds.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:50:42 2010 No.5760851 File: 480 KB, 750x826, Shkumaswa.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Dohoho.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:50:42 2010 No.5760855 >>5760824 Which interview? Someone link it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:55:42 2010 No.5760870 >>5760855 I don't know about the interview, but it was confirmed in TIPS as well.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:56:42 2010 No.5760873 >>5760855 http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/7366.html >Concerning the scene where Battler is shot, since Battler witnesses the moment the gun is fired, basically there is no mistake about that.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 05:56:42 2010 No.5760874 Umineko is a paradox. The more you understand about it, the less you like it. I guess to be a big fan you have to be a complete retard who still believe that magic exists.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:04:42 2010 No.5760900 >>5760873 This is a pretty good interview. Not only does he confirm that there's only one truth, he elaborates on the red trust relationship. I've read it before, but I must have forgotten about that Eva part.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 06:06:42 2010 No.5760903
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>>5760873
Interesting. I wonder if we can take this to mean that any scene the detective witnesses is fact, regardless of if it's told from their perspective, or not. That seems to be the implication...

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:12:09 2010 No.5760918 >>5760855 http://pastie.org/946937

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:14:42 2010 No.5760931 >>5760903 Oh boy...

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:15:42 2010 No.5760935

>>5760802
She wasn't the culprit and she probably kept quiet about the event because she herself had no idea what the fuck is going on and the gold is probably illegal as some speculated.
Remember that she actually love Ange till the cruelest witch came along and wrecked that relationship.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:16:42 2010 No.5760937

R: In truth the cover of EP1 has already stated it: "Traditional mystery will be gradually corroded by witches' fantasy." EP1 doesn't contain any fantasy description, which means that as the story progresses, witches' fantasy will corrode reality. At this rate, to what extent will the corrosion occur in EP4 can be a frightening thought. But there are many hints in EP3, so hopefully the readers can shout out, "Don't look down on us; we'll definitely beat you," to heighten your spirit.

...whatever happened to this corrosion thingy?
Seems like "There are going to be more and more trolls in fantasy ending with a certain meido"

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 06:16:42 2010 No.5760939 >>5760931 The can of worms has been opened, yes.

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 06:19:42 2010 No.5760949 >>5760937 When you think about it, the number of fantasy scenes that have occurred in each episode has gotten steadily larger, with Ep 6 containing a huge number of them. Ep 2 had a few, Ep 3 had a little more, etc.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:21:42 2010 No.5760957 Knox rules are fantasy.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:22:42 2010 No.5760961

>>5760903
I don't think so. His implication here contradicts what episode 5 shows us of Erika, she is always entering fantasy scenes, something the piece Battler never does. This interview is long before episode 5, so his viewpoint on what exactly is reliable may have changed at a certain point, and this constituted his "nasty trick"

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 06:24:42 2010 No.5760967 >>5760961 She enters meta-world scenes, which I don't think are really the same as fantasy scenes because they don't affect the game board. Battler is in meta-world scenes all the time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:27:42 2010 No.5760972 >>5760957 However, you can accurately think that the culprit is amongst the original 18 (now 17). Also, it's funny that you mention this - by this logic, all mysteries after episode 1 are red herrings.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:27:42 2010 No.5760973

>>5760967
Misleading. Meta-world Battler is in Meta-world scenes all the time. It is made clear across all episodes that Meta-world Battler is not the same entity as Battler the piece, who doesn't enter meta-world scenes until episode 5. Meta-world Erika and Erika the piece however are depicted as the same.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 06:32:42 2010 No.5760992

>>5760973
Misleading how? There are several times in Ep 2 where you could say Battler and piece Battler are 'implied to be the same', namely Jessica's closed room where he says 'resign' to no one in particular. Or perhaps the scene with Rosa in the servant's room closed room where he cries on the game board, and then is shown in the same pose in the same position in meta world, begging for Beatrice to appear.

Does that mean Battler is suddenly implied to be the same and therefore things he witnesses are unreliable? No.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:40:42 2010 No.5761033 >>5760972 >However, you can accurately think that the culprit is amongst the original 18 (now 16). Fixed for you. We can further bring down this number to 14 if we exclude Battler and Maria.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:42:42 2010 No.5761042

>>5760992
He says it to not one in particular because he's giving up. It's not like his comment is completely without context. Also, the two of them having the same emotion does not show that they are the same. Otherwise, you could almost claim that Bernkastel and Erika are the same, there's a scene where the gameboard shatters and Bern is shown in the same position as Erika saying the same thing.

What about the parts where meta-world Battler doesn't understand what the piece him is thinking? It has always been accepted that they are different entities. Otherwise, their thoughts would be connected.

Erika on the other hand is always saying things on the gameboard that are from the meta-world, especially in episode 6.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:48:42 2010 No.5761062 >>5761042 >Bernkastel and Erika are the same, there's a scene where the gameboard shatters and Bern is shown in the same position as Erika saying the same thing. Is it that time again for denying Erika? Because I heard it is.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:50:42 2010 No.5761066 I made this thread at 2 AM. The sun is up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:51:42 2010 No.5761072 >>5761066 Welcome to /jp/.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:51:42 2010 No.5761073 >>5761062 Oh look, another idiot who doesn't understand how Umineko works.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:52:42 2010 No.5761074 >>5761062 If you deny Erika you have to say that either Genji or Jessica killed 5 people, all female, including Natsuhi and Maria. Usually it's Jessica.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 06:52:42 2010 No.5761075
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>>5761042
So I guess emotions and even the things they're saying apparently 'leaking' onto the game board doesn't mean anything either, right?

Ignoring this inconsistency in your logic is basically just like you plugging your ears and screaming. Only I have to sit here and listen to it too.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:53:42 2010 No.5761078 >>5761073 Oh look, another idiot who thinks forgers can write additional character for two stories, but can't invent additional personality for someone the same way.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:55:42 2010 No.5761080 >>5761066 What are you talking about, it's 3 P.M. now.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:56:42 2010 No.5761082 >>5761074 Jessica's too smart to be the culprit. Genji might have done it for his dead lover, Kinzo.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:56:42 2010 No.5761083

>>5761075
The first line is what Rosa is responding to. There's no inconsistency here, how exactly do you explain the parts where meta world Battler clearly states he has no idea what the piece him is saying? They have always been accepted as two separate entities.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:56:42 2010 No.5761084 >>5761078 They can't, because the characters can't be changed, they must act given their personalities and roles.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 06:57:42 2010 No.5761086 What the fuck, guys? You forgot about episode 5 already? It was explicitly stated there that Battler was the detective for the 4 first episodes.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:01:42 2010 No.5761093

>>5761084
Really? How do they know everything about the characters? It's not like it all was written in 2 original message bottles.
And besides, you only need to make stories so they follow general rules, that doesn't mean that they can't have variations.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:03:42 2010 No.5761097 >>5761093 It's not about knowing everything about the characters, it's about ERIKA DIDN'T EXIST PRIOR TO EPISODE 5. Meaning that none of them had a Erika personality or whatever. The stories can have variation, the characters can't.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 07:04:42 2010 No.5761099
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>>5761083
Yes, she's saying 'you're the one who's being silent' to him pushing her to explain how the culprit locked the doors and not the 'you stay silent' line which she quotes pretty much word for word. Just the kind of logical conclusion I'd expect from a Shkanonfriend.

There's exactly 1 instance where he says 'seriously, why'd I say it was all useless', and you can chalk this up to him regretting the way his catchphrase made it sound like he was going to solve everything.

Not that I expect you to acknowledge this possibility at all, or anything.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:05:42 2010 No.5761100 Guys, my memory is vague. Could someone please remind me if Battler EVER SAW SHANNON OR KANON ALIVE in EP2 before the murders started? i.e. Is it possible that he met only one of them in EP2? Thanks in advance.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:07:42 2010 No.5761106 >>5761097 They can if it doesn't seriously affect the plot.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:07:42 2010 No.5761107

>>5761097
I am pretty sure she exists. I am not sure what is so significance about her existence
Her boat just capsized near Rokkenjima and she died in the real world except for ep5 and ep6 where she was granted a miracle to somehow drift to Rokkenjima.
Anyway she isn't the culprit and she was there in ep5 and ep6 to make the game easier for you. Why are you people making things so complicated for yourself?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:08:42 2010 No.5761109 >>5761099 >Just the kind of logical conclusion I'd expect from a Shkanonfriend. You're an idiot.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:09:43 2010 No.5761112 >>5761099 Your hate toward an almost definitely true theory is showing again. Why are you bring this up when we aren't even talking about that?

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 07:10:43 2010 No.5761114 >>5761109 Sorry you feel that way, but a lot of arguments they present make only a ha'penny's worth the sense.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:10:43 2010 No.5761115
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>>5761099
Oh boy. So this is all your grudge against Shkanon is it? As for the one instance, the context establishes that it means he doesn't know what conclusion the piece him has thought up, and he needs to listen to 'his' own theory on the gameboard so he knows.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:10:43 2010 No.5761116 >>5761114 And you do? Don't hate the players, hate the game.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:12:43 2010 No.5761119

>>5761112
The reason that ShKShitter was arguing with him in the first place is because "what Erika witnesses is true" disproves his pet theory. They were arguing with that as an unspoken goal understood by both of them. The tripfag just mentioned it first so it made him look like he was butthurt, when really the ShkShitter was.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:13:43 2010 No.5761126 >>5761115 Jesus fuck, that's because it's ep5 and his piece was controlled by Bern. She even says so herself.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 07:15:43 2010 No.5761133
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>>5761112
How is it true again, when it potentially violates several red truths and common sense? Especially when you can explain all of the crimes in all 6 episodes without it.

Sorry, but a bunch of morons blindly believing it and justifying it by using shitty logic and assumptions to get past contradictions =/= true.

>>5761115
Isn't this in Ep 5 when Lambda is controlling his piece?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:15:43 2010 No.5761135 You people are still at it? Go get some rest or something.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:15:43 2010 No.5761136 I'm surprised there's people who actually like Shkanon(trice). And here I though /jp/'s tastes weren't that bad.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:16:43 2010 No.5761139 >>5761135 What the fuck do you mean "you people"?

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:17:43 2010 No.5761140

>>5761119
Why would ShkShitter be butthurt? They already accepted the shit that R07 will pulled.
I will enjoy that tripfag delicious tears when [red]Shannon and Kanon are actually just two personality residing in a body. [/red] is spoken in ep7 or ep8.
Also I liked to have the screenshot scene of Erika talking to both Kanon and Shannon at the same time in ep5.

Where is that red text picture for this when I need it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:17:43 2010 No.5761141 File: 249 KB, 640x480, capture_14012010_185057.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5761115 Nice work proving that you're id...I mean shkannofag.

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 07:18:43 2010 No.5761145 >>5761141 At, it's Bern. Man, they play with him like a Barbie doll in Ep 5.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:19:43 2010 No.5761147
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>>5761136
People don't like ShKanontrice, nobody like it.
But there is a difference between liking something and accepting it.
You've got to be one huge retard to not see that ShKanontrice is true.
But this is the Umineko fandom so yeah.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:19:43 2010 No.5761150 >>5761139 Clearly I'm referring to you theoryfags.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:19:43 2010 No.5761154 >>5761140 >Also I liked to have the screenshot scene of Erika talking to both Kanon and Shannon at the same time in ep5. Huh? Is there anything like that?

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:19:43 2010 No.5761155

I agree that they're not the same person, but there's something you're missing.

Meta-Battler controls Piece-Battler in episodes 1-4. This is what creates the reliable perspective - a reliable player controlling his own piece. This is why some things they say are the same.

He actually has no crazy detective authority like Erika, but since Meta-Battler won't accept fantasy, none of those scenes can occur as long as he is controlling his piece. Thus we can trust his piece's viewpoint.

In episode 5, Battler is no longer controlling his piece, so his piece no longer has any sort of reliable viewpoint. Bern can show whatever she likes.

But this actually helps your argument. 'Bern the player' is an unreliable player who won't fairly show a good perspective like Meta-Battler the player. Whether the 'player' behind Erika's piece is actually Bern or Erika herself, the concept is the same. The way in which Erika's piece is controlled is not properly fair, because the control does not stem from a fair player. Thus, just like Piece-Battler controlled by Bern, Erika can enter these meta scenes and scenes where she is present may not reflect the truth.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:20:43 2010 No.5761158 >>5761154 That is what the tripfag was implying. Erika saw both Kanon and Shannon at the same time thus shkanontrice != true.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:20:43 2010 No.5761159 I dont like Shkanontrice but I dont go around calling it stupid and coming up with nothing better. You guys will be so analpained when ep7 comes out. Though I hope not.

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 07:21:43 2010 No.5761160 File: 219 KB, 640x480, 9964396.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5761140 I'll give you a hot bath in my tears and wash you clean in it, if it turns out to be proven true in Ep 7/8. Promise.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:21:43 2010 No.5761162 >>5761147 You've got to be one huge retard to not think of other possible meanings of the word 'furniture'. But this is the Umineko fandom so yeah.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:22:43 2010 No.5761168 >>5761162 Learn to read, it's not even about the word furniture there.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:23:43 2010 No.5761171 >competent reader shows puts whiny Shkanonfag in his palce >people calling competent reader butthurt and an idiot Nice going, /jp/

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:23:43 2010 No.5761172 >>5761162 Sure then. I sure like to hear you explain what the fantasy scenes in ep6 are all about? Oh wait, you must be the kind of idiot that DISCARD and CTRL SKIP all the fantasy scenes right?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:24:43 2010 No.5761177 >>5761171 >competent reader That's what you call roleplaying tripfag nowadays? The world is going to hell.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:24:43 2010 No.5761179 >>5761172 How about you explain what George killing Eva was about? What Jessica killing Kyrie was about. OH WAIT, you can't because they were FAKED FUCKING DEATHS AND THE FANTASY SCENES HAD NO RELEVANCE.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:25:43 2010 No.5761183

>>5761147
I do see Shkanon(trice) as having good chances, since some arguments have been provided. However, much of the theory seems really shaky, convoluted and with many elements that conveniently go around the Red, like saying things like personalities can die and such.

Mind you, I'm not going to deny R07 may have written something like that. I, honestly, have no idea. I've always tried to focus more on the Epitaph than in the murders, but with my limited knowledge in kanji and Japanese common knowledge, my options are fairly limited. But, that aside, I see no problem with leaving room for an unnoticed element X, which explains all these murders in a more realistic fashion than something like Shakanon(trice).

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 07:26:43 2010 No.5761185 >>5761177 Show me where I'm roleplaying or don't accuse me of it. If I were, I'd be sucking Trollkastel's dick every time he showed up in these threads.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:26:43 2010 No.5761188 >>5761172 I can explain them, but it will break your nice little world, where everything is clear as day, and the author is a complete retard. So I'll just wait for ep7 and give him the credit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:27:43 2010 No.5761191 >>5761179 But they do idiot. We learned how George finally grew some balls and finally crawled out from his mommy womb and who would forget about Kyrie's past confessions. Oh wait, you cant read. As expected of a retard.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:28:43 2010 No.5761193

>>5761183

The sad thing is that pretty much all theories have to go around the red where the Kanon closed room in concerned. You have theories like Kanon = Roulette Zero and/or Kinzo and Erika = title which are tricky with the red, but they are no more tricky than Shkanontrice which is 10 times worse.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:29:43 2010 No.5761195 >>5761191 >ShkShitter calling someone else a retard Good one. Not only are you all retarded, you assume the author is too.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:29:43 2010 No.5761197 All the petty insults in this thread is just really bad trolling. Just thought I'd comment on that.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:30:43 2010 No.5761199

>>5761183
>However, much of the theory seems really shaky, convoluted and with many elements that conveniently go around the Red, like saying things like personalities can die and such.

Use the definition of personality given by George. In that case, it's mostly a matter of how others perceive a person.

So, a personality can easily be "killed" if it's abandoned and the others think that the identity is dead.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 07:31:43 2010 No.5761200

>>5761159
I could write up an outline of every episode's crimes/mysteries and give you an explanation and culprit that doesn't violate the red truth and doesn't use Shkanon's personality magic, if you like.

Not like I'm calling people idiots when I don't have any ideas or theories myself. I just assume most people have already heard them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:31:43 2010 No.5761203 >>5761183 >unnoticed element X And how would you insert this into a closed room with all the pieces location verified in RED?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:32:43 2010 No.5761206 Episode 7 will be fun. You'll have no problem with me spamming MEIDO WITH DID DID IT in the Umineko threads the moment it will be confirmed in the 2ch thread, right? Please let me enjoy your tears.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:33:43 2010 No.5761212 >>5761197 Typical shkannon discussion. Nothing new.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:34:43 2010 No.5761213

>>5761155
Continuing, this is my theory on the matter.

Reliable player + detective piece = reliable 1st-person perspective, reliable 3rd-person involvement. The narrator can't lie about what happens to this piece in the third person, because the reliable player won't allow it.

Unreliable player + unreliable perspective = anything goes, but the piece's actions must be believable according to their nature.

Unreliable player + detective piece = reliable first person perspective, unreliable 3rd person involvement. There may not be falsified scenes that come first person from this character, but third-person scenes involving them may be questionable. I believe this matches up with how in episode 5, where Piece-Erika is the detective, she has no first person scenes, but in episode 6, where she isn't, she has plenty of them, and they are filled with impossibilities.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:34:43 2010 No.5761217 >>5761206 Same here. Saving this thread number so that I can opened this in easymodo later when it is confirmed. Even though Shkanon is shit but at least we can get some delicious tripfag tears out of it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:37:43 2010 No.5761238 >>5761191 >fictional murders have some other meaning Oh, but then maybe Shannon/Kanon killing each other and gaining full soul can have some OTHER MEANING TOO? Of course not! They are literally killing each other! There can't be anything except that!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:37:43 2010 No.5761240 >>5761206 >>5761217 cant wait 4 epic lulz xD

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:37:43 2010 No.5761242

>>5761217

Butthurt. I know a guy who claimed to be making a Shkanon "collage" by putting together caps of posts where people deny the theory, in order to post it when and IF it was confirmed. How pathetic can you be? You'll look like a pathetic nerd if you're right, you'll look and feel pathetic when you shrink into a corner if you're wrong.

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 07:38:43 2010 No.5761245 File: 59 KB, 191x315, bern smirk.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5761217 >>5761206 Please, be my guest, gentlemen.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:42:43 2010 No.5761261

>>5761242
Why?
It is win win situation for me since I hate that theory.
If R07 pulled it off, he will regained my faith in him.
If R07 used his MEIDO WITH DID card, I will just go oh well, another VN ruined to mediocrity because of shitty ending but this time with added tripfag delicious tears.

Don't kid yourself with the red herring bullshit, after 6eps with so much evidences and foreshadowing pointing to it he literally has to do a 180 uturn himself to make shkanon not true.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:44:43 2010 No.5761269

>>5761261
>>after 6eps with so much evidences and foreshadowing pointing to it he literally has to do a 180 uturn himself to make shkanon not true

...which is what mystery authors always do, which is what Ryu07 himself did with Higurashi, but let's ignore that.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:44:43 2010 No.5761271

>>5761199
I know what you mean man, but these whole things about how you perceive is person is foul gaming. The Red text was supposed to be something objective. This whole thing about personalities fall under the real of subjectivity. And the biggest issue here is that detective novels are supposed to be made so that the reader can solve the mystery by logical deductions and common knowledge.

Now, I'm not saying there are not hints. After EP6 I realise there are. However, they rely a lot on the reader thinking on the same way as the author, because many of these hints contain a lot of the authors own subjectivity.

>>5761203
I don't know. That's why it'd be an unknown element X.
Not that I'm actually expecting anything of the sort, but if it does happen, it makes sense, and feels realistic, all the better no?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:47:43 2010 No.5761285 >>5761213 That theory just reeks of ShkShit. You put up a better argument than the other shitter but in the end you're only saying this crap because of a pet theory.

>>	ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 07:48:43 2010 No.5761288 File: 331 KB, 633x476, sign it.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5761269 Forget Ryukishi, I'm pretty sure this is the specialty of everyone in Umineko.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:49:43 2010 No.5761294

>After EP6 I realise there are. However, they rely a lot on the reader thinking on the same way as the author, because many of these hints contain a lot of the authors own subjectivity.
This is often the case with bad foreshadowing. The author thinks it's fairly obvious, but that's only because of the way they look at it. To a reader, it can be interpreted in many ways and only looks obvious in foresight.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:51:43 2010 No.5761305 >>5761269 What? I am pretty sure everyone figured out that Takano did it when she was carrying K1 bike. Guess what episode number that is and contrast that with Seacat.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:53:43 2010 No.5761311

ShKanonfags lack trust in R07, simple as that. They reach a retarded conclusion that they can justify (except when people call them out on how buttfuckingly unpractical it is), then impose that upon him as if he's no better than them. So fucking full of unwarranted self importance.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:54:43 2010 No.5761317

>>5761269
Most good mystery novels are consistent, which mean that the subtle clues and foreshadowing you see through their stories point to the real truth.
No good mystery has a resolution that come from nowhere.

What you can have though is red herring, but red herring are often very obvious and undeveloped.

Oh and for Higurashi, you could see pretty much everything by the third game.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:57:43 2010 No.5761326
File: 112 KB, 466x343, 1253951848599.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5761285
>>5761311
You know, for a while I wondered why you always showed up with your "ShkShit/ShkShitters/etc" nonsense making it blatantly obvious what a samefag you are, but now I finally get it.

You say it all the time so people think they can identify you by your unique terms, but that's only so you can turn around and use something more standard like "Shkanonfag" when you samefag but don't want it to be spotted.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 07:58:43 2010 No.5761333

>>5761311
Actually, that's what I would say of the anti-ShKanon fags.
They project their own desire on Umineko without even trying to look at the game for what it is, that's what R07 was saying through Hachijou in episode 6.

The ENTIRE story of Umineko have been filled with clues pointing to ShKanon, and thematically the entire narrative points to it.
But you fags just go LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU because that's not what you want.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 08:01:43 2010 No.5761345 >>5761326 >EPIC WIN REACTION IMAGE I SURE OWNED HIM XD That's what I'm getting from you.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 08:03:43 2010 No.5761351

>>5761305
>>5761317
I'll agree that Takano was fairly obvious from early on, but suspicion on her alone didn't really solve anything. The use of drugs was hinted also in Onikakushi, but something as convoluted as brain parasites seriously felt as something R07 pulled out of his ass. Well, you may think differently, but that's my honest opinion.

ERIKA !!rvelpwMesVU Sat Jul 24 08:03:43 2010 No.5761354

>>5761333
Every time I've been involved in one of these discussions, it's been the opposite. I am willing to accept Shkanon as a theory, but I am not willing to accept it as the one true theory, which a lot of supporters have a huge problem with apparently.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 08:07:43 2010 No.5761368

>>5761333
Not so much dude. Most of the anti-Shkanon(trice)-fags do accept the possibility of that theory. The difference is that we refuse to accept it as the only theory, and rather try to come up with new ones.

However, this alone seems to infuriate Shaknon(trice)-fags, as if it is something completely unacceptable.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 08:07:43 2010 No.5761370 >>5761351 But brain parasites was wrong in the end. Takano's theory fell apart in practice and she had to cover it up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 08:08:43 2010 No.5761373 >>5761354 >>5761368 Most of what I've seen you try to do is create theories to destroy ShKanon, which is the epitome of butthurt.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 08:09:43 2010 No.5761377 >>5761370 Brain parasite wasn't wrong.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 08:12:43 2010 No.5761387 >>5761373 >creating other theories, that don't use crazy cross-dressing maid is butthurt Yeah, whatever you say, man.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 24 08:12:43 2010 No.5761393 >>5761373 Why would we be butthurt? Because we don't want to stop thinking? If that's the case then, I don't know about others, but I'm butthurt, VERY.

Anonymous Sat Jul 24 08:27:43 2010 No.5761463

>>5761393
But what are you really thinking about? Solutions for that closed room aside from Shkanontrice are usually throw-away and offer no actual insight into the mystery.

It's more like you're coming up with any old justification so you can safely ignore episode 6 and theorize as if the episode never existed.

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