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/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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File: 28 KB, 330x500, remembering-the-kanji-1-heisig.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5331772 No.5331772 [Reply] [Original]

Who else done it.

I love being so OP'd at learning this language now.

>> No.5331775

>Heisig

>> No.5331780

I've only done 1-2000. I'll start the next 1000 soon

>> No.5331793 [DELETED] 

I'm learning directly from JLPT flash cards on Anki and studying 教育漢字 directly from wikitionary.

I have better methods.

>> No.5331814

/r/ link

>> No.5331816

I'm using Rosetta Stone because it's proven to be the best way to use a new language.

>> No.5331817

Did RTK1. It has helped me greatly.
Sadly I stopped reviewing after some time, but I'm still glad I did it. Maybe I will pick it up again.

>> No.5331823
File: 46 KB, 300x289, 1271572478979.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5331823

>>5331816

>> No.5331828

>>5331816
hahaha

>> No.5331831 [DELETED] 

>>5331816
>Rosetta Stone
I don't know if you're a fag, but you're sure as hell trying.

>> No.5331833

>>5331828
>>5331823
They've already guaranteed I'll be fluent in no time.

>> No.5331838

Flash cards and writing them over and over is the way to go.

>> No.5331858
File: 7 KB, 154x251, 1273181328955.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5331858

>silly stories to help you remember stuff

>> No.5331859

>>5331831
>>5331828
>>5331823
are you idiots really that easily trolled?

>> No.5331863

I can only wish that remembering the kanji was the hard part

Oh fuck god, vocab and sentences are draining the life out of me

>> No.5331865

I was going to take a Japanese class one semester.
Turns out it has a required lab... Changed my mind.

>> No.5331869

>>5331858
It works. I prefer asking stupid questions in class though. The shame cements the knowledge in my mind.

>> No.5331873

>>5331859
Maybe they're trolling you instead?

>>5331858
Heisig is more about "imaginative memory" as he calls it than stories. The "stories" are only there to make you burn some visual scene containing all the kanji primitives in your mind for easy recall.

>>5331863
This. Kanji are easy modo.

>> No.5331874

I tried, but I'm incompetent at memorizing by stories.

>> No.5331879

Heisig's idea of which kanji are useful and which aren't has very little connection to reality. Enjoy not knowing what 俺 is.

>> No.5331888

>>5331879
RTK1 contains only contains 常用漢字 as well as a few others used as primitives.
俺 is covered in RTK3.

>> No.5331892

>>5331879

俺 isn't even jouyou, and Japan decided that not Heisig

>> No.5331895

>>5331888
The 常用漢字 have very little connection to reality themselves. 我? Yeah, everyone needs to know that. 僕? Nope, nobody needs to know that.

>> No.5331917

>>5331895
That's true but you can't blame Heisig for that.
僕 is in RTK1.

>> No.5331922

>>5331879
>implying that there are japanesefag in /jp/ who don't know 俺、我、私、僕 already from watching animu and reading titles of[because their jp level is low] VN.

>> No.5331926

>>5331922
Excuse me, I don't know that second one.

>> No.5331930

>>5331879
Not knowing what ore is? Go fuck yourself you jealous dipshit.

>> No.5331931

>>5331926
oh well, you won't be able to talk to people over 80 then

>> No.5331933

>>5331926
This is god-tier version among them all.

>> No.5331938

>>5331931
Why would you need to know the kanji to talk...

>> No.5331943

Also, just because it's not in RTK doesn't mean you're not allowed to learn it.

>> No.5331966

Why do Japanese have such shitty handwriting? My English handwriting is not as bad as their Japanese.

>> No.5331974

>>5331966
Because they take more shortcuts as the individual characters are more time consuming to write.

>> No.5331984

the two fatal flaws of heisig are

1 - definitions that are sometimes worthless
2 - he only gives one definition per kanji when there are often multiple

>> No.5331991

>>5331863
>I can only wish that remembering the kanji was the hard part

It is assuming you only want to learn how to read. I started playing untranslated VNs shortly after having acquired the 常用漢字 even though I never did substantial study of the vocab or grammar.

>> No.5332006

>>5331984
Well, that might be because they're not really definitions but keywords and thus must be unique and memorable.
It's not a dictionary. Though, most kanji are quite reasonable, but some are outright wrong, that's true.

>> No.5332017

>>5331984

You can't really call those flaws when there's no way around them, and they sure aren't fatal.

>> No.5332018

>>5331991
What I am saying is that it takes many months to years of vocab and shit to get to the point where 交通事故 means traffic accident and not "mingle traffic matter happenstance". You can understand kanji or words here and there, but you arent realizing the meaning of the sentence.

>> No.5332026

>>5332017

look up kanjidicks

>> No.5332036

>>5332026

Kanjidicks is awful really. Worse keywords, duplicate keywords, incorrect onyomi, the list goes on.

>> No.5332038

>>5332018
Uh why? 交通 means traffic, 事故 means accident. Seems pretty common sense to me unless you are reading each kanji individually for some dumb reason.

>> No.5332045

>>5332018
Heisig is only a step, not the end of studying.
Its goal is to familiarize yourself with kanji, nothing more, nothing less.

>> No.5332067

>>5332018
交通 - traffic
事故 - accident

Only two words. Not as hard as you're making it out to be.

>> No.5332073

>>5332067
>>5332038

jukugo = vocabulary

>> No.5332075

>>5332036
Where the fuck am I supposed to grind then? Trying to pick words out of stuff I'm attempting to read is discouraging as fuck.

>> No.5332099

>>5332073
I guess I'm in luck; I haven't bothered learning individual kanji at all. Seems bloody stupid to do it that way.

>> No.5332103

>>5332075

It's good as supplement learning. But putting in 3 kanji into your SRS with the keyword for all of them being "Return" isn't a good idea

>> No.5332107

>>5331984
It's not defining them, it's giving the meaning so you can gloss over words you don't know and get the overall meaning of the sentence.

Learning individual kanji in general is pretty useless because of >>5332018
Although people just do it because they can go WOO 2000 KANJI NOW I CAN READ THE NEWSPAPER.

Except they don't know any combinations.

>> No.5332135

>>5332018
it's easy enough to learn that kind of thing by browsing wikipedia and 2ch with rikaichan. only the most basic vocabulary require drill.

>> No.5332154

>>5332067
>>5332038
I think he's talking about how you'd read that if you tried picking it apart in Heisig keywords. While it's true that this would turn out to be "mingle traffic matter happenstance" it's not really how you'd go about it. Of course you're supposed to learn the actual words too.

>>5332075
Depends on how you're learning. There's lots of pre-made Anki (http://ichi2.net/anki/wiki/AnkiWiki)) decks containing lots of vocabulary. There's also iknow.fm which is quite nice.

>>5332107
熟語 and vocab are completely different issue.

>> No.5332165

>>5332026
>>5332017
>>5331984

Yes, that is the worst part of RtK. Well, that and the primitive meanings/stories he suggests are often pretty dumb. Still, it just means a little more effort: once I realized what was going on, I just looked up every new one I thought might be bad on WWWJDIC. Also, I used the "RtK 1 and 3 w/ kanji definition and yomi" deck, which made it possible to just copy the character directly into WWWJDIC, and also helped for judging when to just trust Heisig's keyword, thanks to the multiple definitions.

If you know the kanji you:
( 0) grew up in Japan),
1) used RtK,
2) didn't use it, but used vivid stories about components (other than having organized everything for you, that's really all he contributed with RtK), or
3) spent probably a solid thousand or so hours writing them over and over.

>> No.5332172

>>5332107

Why learn vocab when you can just do sentences? See where this is going? It's best to take things in steps.

>> No.5332212 [DELETED] 

>>5332172
Sentences are made up of words. If have no idea what the words mean it's quite pointless to put them into your SRS.

>> No.5332239 [DELETED] 

>>5332212

Equally pointless to study thousands of jukugo made up of squiggly looking letters you've never seen before in your life.

>> No.5332236

>>5332172
Sentences are made up of words. If have no idea what the words it's made of mean it's quite pointless to put a sentence into your SRS.

>> No.5332246

>>5332236

Equally pointless to study thousands of jukugo made up of squiggly looking letters you've never seen before in your life.

>> No.5332252

>>5332107
I'm still in the process of learning, so I don't know how good of an idea this will end up having been, but my plan has been to learn the RtK vol. 1 stuff by itself, and then sort of organically pick up the readings and various compounds by reading simple Japanese stuff, like Yotsuba&!. So far I think it's working, but who knows.

I can see why some people are so quick to dismiss RtK... it's probably very easy to go through it and think you're a lot more advanced in Japanese than you actually are. However, he does lay out pretty clearly in the introduction what it does and doesn't do.

>> No.5332261

>>5332239
That's true, of course.
Focusing on your interests and using them as a source for new material to learn is better than learning random shit some other guy threw together.

>> No.5332271

>>5332252
That's essentially what I'm doing. RTK + ANKI + eroge everyday.

>> No.5332288

>>5332154
I've just been looking things up as I encounter them. Worked for the basics, but I'm not making a dent in less-frequent stuff.

Guess I'd better suck it up and start using an SRS.

>> No.5332295

I think a lot of people here are mistaking the intentions of Heisig. You're not supposed to learn words at all from it. The only point is to make learning actual words much easier. Trust me, it helps. It is so much easier to learn a word if you already know how to write the kanji which make it up. If you're fine with the extra stress of learning to write the kanji and the definition/use of the words itself at the same time then don't bother with Heisig. If you're finding this difficult, that's when Heisig is helpful. Also, it's useless if you don't actually write out the Kanji while learning Heisig. The whole point is to learn to write them.

>> No.5332305

>>5332288

SRS is mandatory, everything else is kind of up to you and what works and what doesn't

>> No.5332331

>>5332288
It's generally a good idea to put stuff into your SRS, but only if it's something you *really* want to not forget after looking it up. Don't treat it as a dump for everything or reviewing will become a chore.

>> No.5332345

>>5332295
Also, I was about halfway through RtK1 before I realized the point of the stories. It seems like the more longwinded, the less a chance of actually learning it, but it's the opposite. The more connections you make with the Kanji, the more likely you are to remember it. Ditch a lot of his stupid stories and think of something which really sticks out in your mind. If it doesn't help you remember, make a new goddamn story.

>> No.5332357

>>5332271
Is that working well? I picked Yotsuba&! to start with because it's for kids, and I figured anything harder would be too hard. If eroge's are doable, should I give Umineko ep. 6 a shot? Or is eroge writing not as sophisticated as I'm assuming?

>> No.5332379

>>5332345
I used http://kanji.koohii.com/study for stories. Fuck heisig's stories.

>> No.5332392

>>5332331
Yeah, that's how it turned out the past times I tried one. I'll try a premade deck or something for when I feel like grinding, and keep the ones I personally add separate. Maybe that'll help.

>> No.5332431

>>5332357
Works fine for me, though I've been doing this for several months now. The difficult varies between each eroge, how much dialogue is spoken etc. Umineko sounds like it would be a more difficult read

>> No.5332442

>>5332345
I totally agree with this. You probably should ignore almost all of his stories.

Another thing I found out is that when you associate a primitive with a sufficiently colorful and memorable person, the kanji it shows up in are extremely easy. Once I decided that 糸 was Nozomu Itoshiki, I got pretty much all of the kanji it's in for free.

>> No.5332449

>>5332295
This, sadly.
Most people who complain about Heisig are either trolls or misinformed (probably by the trolls).

>>5332357
Umineko is harder than most manga as it uses lots of descriptive language. I wouldn't suggest it for a total beginner, although much of it's vocabulary is very repetitive (traps, witches, gold, key, servant, etc etc) so if you spent some time with AGTH picking out words it shouldn't take too long to get some basic level of understanding.
Voiced eroge/VNs are generally much easier to get into.

>> No.5332459

>>5332357
I would assume Umineko is a lot more difficult than porn. I mean, even in English the dialogue is pretty dry and it often doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

>> No.5332474

>>5332357
It depends on the eroge but school life ones are generally very easy to read and have a lot of dialogue. And with a text hooker you can easily look up words you don't know so as long as you know your grammar it should be very doable.

>> No.5332510

>>5332252
rtk becomes mindnumbingly boring after you get to about 200, and your progress slows.

Also, don't bother learning anything through manga. Just use VNs. The language is much harder, but being able to just copy and paste words into a dictionary saves sooooo much time overall. Of course, you need a decent understanding of grammar beforehand but if you choose easier stuff it ends up being barely harder than manga (plus you get some listening practice when stuff is voiced)

>> No.5332549

>>5332510
I'm done with RtK. Also, I didn't start having to force myself until after 1000; up until then it was like 6 hours a day and I was having a blast. Your mileage may vary.

>> No.5332567

>>5331772
OP'd?

>> No.5332585

does anyone else bother practicing the writing aspect of it?

>> No.5332588

>>5332510
>rtk becomes mindnumbingly boring after you get to about 200, and your progress slows.
True. Lots of coffee did the trick for me.

>> No.5332593

>>5332510
Ah, also, about manga vs. VNs: looking up things from manga is only mildly more difficult, especially if you have a tablet: you can either look up the keyword in Anki (assuming you've bothered to learn them), or just write the character with the pen input.

>> No.5332594

RTK is for fucking idiots.

If you can't remember kanji through sheer repetition, you need to get out.

>> No.5332596

>>5332585
I only care about VNs/animus/mangas/websites so I don't.

>> No.5332603

>>5332585
Yeah, that's pretty important. It helps you remember the words even if you're never going to need to write them. It also helps a lot in differentiating between similar kanji. When you don't write it, you usually tend to form general images which are fine until you come up against something that only differs by a single stroke.

>> No.5332612

>>5332585
It goes hand in hand with RTK. Being able to write also helps recognition. But practicing it more than necessary is quite useless if you don't actually write in Japanese.

>> No.5332624

>>5332594
Learning by rote memorization is quite inefficient. Only idiots use inefficient methods when better alternatives are available.

>> No.5332636

>>5332596
yeah, it's the same with me.

but I started doing it when I first began learning and now it's more of a habit that I've gotten myself into doing.

I'm thinking about stopping since my wrist gets tired and starts hurting a lot and I'm afraid I'll get carpal tunnel.

>> No.5332638

>>5332567
"orally penetrated"

OP is happy that he can now somewhat understand Japanese writing, and can now independently confirm for himself that the essential meaning of every Japanese sentence is in fact "the pleasure of being cummed inside."

>> No.5332659 [DELETED] 

>>5331770
lulz i found sum child porn featuren christopeher pooolar bear hearways :tinyurl dawt com / 39poqjq bc7132886efc130d7790de7c0943681d

>> No.5332661

>>5332585
I started learning through taking classes so I had to. It really helps you remember kanji though so it's a good habit.

>> No.5332805

This thread contradicts almost everything I have ever heard from you guys in the past.

>> No.5332814

>>5332805
Problem?

>> No.5332815

>>5332805
There are a few very vocal people on /jp/ who hate RtK. Ignore them.

>> No.5332844

>>5332805
It's summer, after all.

>> No.5332866

>>5332844
When the kiddies get out of school, they just can't wait to spew their opinion on RtK all over the Net.

>> No.5332886 [DELETED] 

>>5331768
lulz i found sum child porn featuren christopeher pooolar bear hearways :tinyurl dawt com / 39poqjq 75572023ba6caf38d42dd5e6cf9c3353

>> No.5332895

Any links on where to download the materials you guys use? I'm assuming buying is out of the question here.

>> No.5332908

>>5332895
www.google.com

>> No.5332919 [DELETED] 

lulz i found sum child porn featuren christopeher pooolar bear hearways :tinyurl dawt com / 39poqjq 78a2b7ea494a1005e6ac462873632673

>> No.5332927
File: 131 KB, 680x680, GOOGLE.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5332927

>>5332895

>> No.5333173

Is smart.fm any good?

>> No.5333187

>>5332895
Any torrent website, pal.

>>5333173
It's okay, but I wouldn't say it's anywhere near the best method.

>> No.5333325

>>5333187
I wasn't going to use it as a main method, but it looks much better than premade anki decks for grinding.

>> No.5333351

>>5333325
You're going to want to make your own decks in Anki. I can pretty much guarantee that.

>> No.5333357

>>5333351
Seconding this. Some of the words in smart.fm are really useless and of course it leaves out a lot of good ones.

>> No.5333389

anyone recommend a really easy vn to begin actually reading?

>> No.5333403

>>5333351
I know, but I'd like to keep that deck as small as possible. Adding a bunch of stuff I'm going to "need" but don't want to learn will burn me out very quickly.

>> No.5333424

>>5333389
Sanarara

>> No.5333456

>>5333403
That's exactly why we say make your own decks. Make sense?

>>5333389
lolicon VN I hear people say are the easiest (makes sense, all the heroines talk like grade school girls). First one I played myself was Happiness Relucks, lol

>> No.5335435

I use Kanjidicks. It seems to be working alright. I make physical flashcards.

>> No.5335443

>>5333389
Flyable Heart.

>> No.5335478

RTK is smalltime compared to kanjidicks ;_;

Check out the flashcards I'm currently working on for anki. I've fixed and improved on lots of stuff by using rikaichan and WWWJDIC etc

would any of you use this if I were to complete it?

http://kanjidamage.21.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=18&sid=474b3aae880bff0ce3686025233efcfb

>> No.5335490
File: 99 KB, 247x248, 1272715751144.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5335490

>Don't go to /jp/ for around a year
>Return for a quick look
>RTK thread
>haha nobody will fall for this, it's been like 2 ye-
>93 replies
>my face

>> No.5335506

>>5335478
I would. But I'm about 450-500 into it now.

>> No.5335516 [DELETED] 
File: 26 KB, 224x299, nuuh.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5335516

That's about the amount I've made so far. It's not much, but considering that I only make cards when they run out (studying 10 new cards per day).. so I could, say, easily make 100-200 cards a day if someone else would want to reap the benefits

>> No.5335521
File: 26 KB, 224x299, nuuh.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5335521

>>5335506
That's about the amount I've made so far. It's not much, but considering that I only make cards when they run out (studying 10 new cards per day).. so I could, say, easily make 100-200 cards a day if someone else would want to reap the benefits

>> No.5335523

>>5335490
Oh, wow, good thing you left.

>> No.5335546
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5335546

>>5335506
This. I would have welcomed it if I hadn't already started, but I'm this far, and I'm kinda doing it my own way, since I'm not bothering with any rated 2 or lower in usefulness (too many useful kanji left to learn to bother learning stuff like 炭).

Also, fuck, I really need to get some reviewing done right now.

>> No.5335556

>>5335546
>since I'm not bothering with any rated 2 or lower in usefulness (too many useful kanji left to learn to bother learning stuff like 炭).

Really? I'm kinda sad myself because he hasn't made the rest of Jouyou kanji optional or something. Guess I'll just have to learn them by reading lots of shit and creating cards for them later

>> No.5335582

>>5335521
What a coincidence... I also try to get 10 cards written every day.

>>5335546
I stopped looking at the usefulness stars and just decided to memorize everything. Because nothing is more annoying than reading something but THAT ONE KANJI fucks things up for you.

>> No.5335585
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5335585

>Heisig

>> No.5335597

>>5335478
>>5335582
However, I don't do the useful funny little mnemonics on my cards. So I would love to have yours for reviewing anyway.

>> No.5335604

>>5335556
I'll probably have to learn them eventually, but I think it's most important to learn the ones I'm most likely to encounter first. I find that this has really improved my ability to read simple stuff so far, which is better than not being able to read anything.

>> No.5335614
File: 164 KB, 400x400, zet.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5335614

>>5332036
>Kanjidicks is awful really.

>> No.5335635

>>5335582
I solve this by sticking to reading stuff where kanji is easy to look up (eroge, webpages). The way I see it, when you do encounter those unknown kanji, it's really easy to look them up and put them into your anki deck so you won't have trouble with them again, and you have a certain guarantee that every kanji you discover this way is actually used in the stuff you read, and not just in obscure scientific papers or something.

Understandable if you're reading something and don't have a kanji dictionary available at the moment, though, but that doesn't apply for me, since I'm always in front of a computer.

>> No.5335714

I don't get why some people put so much time and effort into arguing about whatever methods they use or dislike. If what you're doing is so great, why not just use your time to do it? Any bystanders will look into it on their own anyway if they're interested in the topic.

>>5333389
抜きゲー　are a good choice, due to mostly simple and repetitive vocab.
Here, have some rare-ish kanji you'll need for the descriptions in sex scenes: 擽膣喘聳呻襞揉癪
I liked 彼女×彼女×彼女。
But really, just read whatever interests you. Anything at all is going to be painful if you're not interested in it.

>> No.5335776
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5335776

>>
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