/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

another Umineko discussion.
what do you think those numbers are?
for each theory (B- theory, Pony theory) it can mean somthing else.
what do YOU think?

[Anonymous No.]

phone number

[Anonymous No.]

Ryukishi07

OH SNAP

[Anonymous No.]

It's uh got something to do with the safe numbers Ange was looking for, hasn't it?

Otherwise I can't really think of anything.

[Anonymous No.]

Battlers handynumber.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5100984
S t O ｐ Ｂ ｅ i N Ｇ ａ P Ｓ y Ｃ Ｈ Ｏ ｃ o P ｙ Ｃ A t t H ｉ e f M ｏ ｏ Ｔ Ａ k A ｃ Ｈ Ｒ I ｓ T O ｐ H e ｒ p ｏ O Ｌ e f r Ｏ ｍ N ｅ ｗ ｙ Ｏ r ｋ Ｈ T t ｐ : / / 8 8 . 8 0 . 2 1 . 1 2 /

[Anonymous No.]

time? (15/7, 11:29 )

[Anonymous No.]

Okay here's an insanely radical theory I just made in literally one minute, you'd be a fool to believe this crazy rambling:

071, rearrange this to become 710, It's the start of the Nara and Heian Periods of Japan.

1129, rearrange this to become 1192, It's the end of the Nara and Heian Periods of Japan and the start of the Kamakura Period.

Hideyoshi likes ancient stuff like that with war leaders and whatnot.

So It's 071 5 1129.

[Anonymous No.]

It's just a phone number Rudolf noted down.

[Anonymous No.]

those are just random digits to fuck with your mind

[Anonymous No.]

The number of people who no longer give a fuck about Umi-jumped-shark-neko.

[Anonymous of Germany !WvzhzxDiIQ No.]

れいし　いご　いい　にく

If you write the numbers in hiragana it gives you the following message:

heir hereafter good meat

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101053
GOHDA MURDERS FOR DELICIOUS FLESH

[Anonymous No.]

Thinking of what a number could possibly be used for:

Telephone number
Safe code
Secret code whispered to somebody to prove who they are
Time or date (07:15 - 11:29)

Eeer

[Anonymous No.]

eh? oo;

and lol, there is a short doujin about the meat

[Anonymous No.]

You can't call a theory a theory when it's been proven wrong. Please refer to it as the pony wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

Pony theory has been proven wrong?
anyway I support B-theory

[Anonymous No.]

Okay what's the pony theory exactly?

All I know is that apparantly Battler promised Shannon he'd come riding back on a horse.

Am I thinking of the right thing here?

How does this link in with the numbers?

What is the B Theory? B0MB again?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101098
The pony theory is originally that someone was disguised as Shannon (because it was too much of a stretch to accept the promise was to Shannon and not Jessica or Beatrice in disguise) and Battler made a promise to that someone, and that someone is Beatrice. Therefore Beatrice exists as her own person. Episode 5 already shit all over it, but it was still believed. Episode 6 makes it abundantly clear that there is no actual Beatrice.

[Anonymous No.]

with the pony theory it might be some kind of password (another thing Battler forgot?)
maybe 29/11 - Sayo's birthday? and than it's with Battler's birthday.
and there is the part with Beatrice III, maybe it's HER birthday? lol
with B- theory it might be the password to neutralize the BOMB
eheh.

[Anonymous No.]

2007/1/5 11:29

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101107
But has TWO of them appear for SYMBOLISM

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101115
Yes, now you're getting it.

[Anonymous No.]

... I still think dressing up as Shannon for no reason when talking to Battler is stupid.

I still think Shannon killing because of a promise of a pony is retarded.

I still think ShKanon is pants on head retarded.

[Anonymous No.]

there is also:
07151129 - Ushiromiya Asumu
if that's true my brain will blow up
thank you Ryukishi

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101122
The author is pants on heads retarded.

>This part will probably serve as a massive hint regarding the truth about Beatrice.

>If you really understand how he was able to escape, it should be possible for you to solve all of the riddles from EP1 to EP4.
>Especially after this last game, where we placed several hints that verged on answers, you should be able to explain the riddles of all the closed rooms up until now.

[Anonymous No.]

"escaped?"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101114

Writing the date like that seems pretty odd.

Missing out 20 at the start, putting the years first strikes me as something you wouldn't do even for a subtle note.

If I were writing something like a date down It'd been like 51071129 so the date in your idea would be 5/1/07.

However, still, why write a date so far in the future? I don't see it working.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101130

Yeah I remember that interview.

What part is he on about that serves as a massive hint, though? How Battler was able to escape?

What escape is he even on about anyway? Kinzo's?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101142
It's part of the Battler coma theory. Basically, Battler fell into a coma "6 years ago" in 1986. This is the time he spent with his grandparents. But in reality he slept much longer. The island is in a heritage site-esque play where it seems to be 1986. Battler is insane and does not realize this. Note Battler's height and that he never looks in a mirror during all 6 episodes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101147
Battler's escape from the closed room in episode 6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101159

Doh. Okay, just gotta wait for episode 6 then. ;)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101167
You will be waiting at least another year.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101154
can you find for me some more information about this theory? never heard about it before

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101169

True. Aaah damn Witch Hunt and their slow translating.

I heard Gamesfaqs are doing their own translation which is going faster than theirs, though. Not sure how I'd feel about reading a different translation, however.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101154

That's gotta be a joke theory.. Right?

[Anonymous No.]

Battler's escape from episode 6 can only be solved by ShKanon.
And R07 confirmed it was the key to solve most closed room.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101179
Yes, there is no such theory. I was just bullshitting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101182
>Battler's escape from episode 6 can only be solved by ShKanon.
This is wrong. But I can't see any other solutions that is "This part will probably serve as a massive hint regarding the truth about Beatrice." or allows you to solve the 1-4 mysteries like Shkanon does.

[Anonymous No.]

It's the Pony's phone number: When you call it he comes and kills everyone, that's what happened when they talked on the phone in the end of episode 1 because all phones are connected to the Pony. By the way Kumasawa set it up.

[Anonymous No.]

Maybe the numbers carry the same message as the magic circles, but in a simplified form.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101182
Except no other closed rooms require Shkannon at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101184
Kanon's real name is Battler. Or maybe even Kinzo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101182
noooo
no Shkanon againnnn

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101197
That would really have nothing to do with Beatrice. Shkanontrice on the other hand would.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101197
Erika tries this, it fails.

[Anonymous No.]

Get out Shkannon devs. Better solve the riddle of those numbers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101188

Hard to think what could possible want to be conveyed by numbers though.

If they were on a door or whatever it means somebody was meant to see it.

So if somebody was meant to see it, it might mean it holds some sort of relevance to somebody.

[Anonymous No.]

we know there is already numbers playing with AUAU's name, right?
yet another trick maybe? (the "Asumu Ushiromiya" theory)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101193
Not closed rooms, but:

Who gave Maria the letter?
Shkanon. Kanon has the perfect opportunity to do so while he runs in the rain. In fact there is no reason for him to run out to the guesthouse in the middle of the rain when he could phone. Battler is shown thinking that it's very strange, but he just brushes it off. In the morning Natsuhi is shown thinking it's very strange for Genji to come knocking on her door, he should call. Genji reveals this is because the phone lines are down. But at the time Kanon ran to the guesthouse, the phone lines were up, since a call comes later to change the shifts. Shkanon is someone Maria could meet on the island every year who could write in Maria's diary. In episode 2, Kanon thinks he could perhaps stealthily switch Maria's candy for his own undamaged candy and act like he fixed it. This is probably exactly what Beatrice does in the very next scene with her "magic." When Maria approaches Rosa when Beatrice is about to come, Maria knows Beatrice is coming, and says so. She was last seen talking to Kanon.

How were Eva and Hideyoshi killed with the chain on the door?
They weren't. When Kanon cut the chain he killed them.

Why is Shannon's corpse not seen directly by Battler in the shed? Why won't Hideyoshi let George see it? Shkanon.

How were Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji and Natsuhi killed when there should have been nobody who could kill them at the time? Who was the Beatrice that appeared afterwards? Shkanon. According to the red Kanon could not have possibly died.

How did Kanon's body disappear from Jessica's room? Shkanon. Why did the servants first thought who they saw was Kanon, but then think otherwise? Shkanon. Why do Shannon, Gohda and George die in a closed room locked from the inside with only them inside, when there is nobody available at the time to murder them? Shkanontrice.

And so on and so forth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101128
>>5101218
How can it be "Asumu Ushiromiya"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5100982
t ｈ i S ｉ ｓ ｃ ｏ ｐ ｙ ｐ a s Ｔ ａ ｉ f o u ｎ D I T H Ｅ ｒ ｅ : H Ｔ ｔ P : / / 8 8 . 8 0 . 2 1 . 1 2 /

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

from older topic, cut most of the things:

0+7+1+5+1+1+2+9 = 26
So now we've established a connection between Hachijou Touya 18+8 = 0+7+1+5+1+1+2+9 cryptic account number

Let's work with the 26 we've got earlier.
First, the surname 右代宮 (Ushiromiya) could be deconstructed phonetically and reconstructed as 後ろ38 (後ろ = ushiro, lit. "behind", 3=mi, 8=ya)
Behind 38? Oh: The 38 is behind.
Behind what? 26.

3826 (can be pronounced as mi you ni mu)
み よう に む or flattening them, みょうにむ
myouni, lit. tomorrow can be written as 明日
mu, lit. dream can be written as 夢

明日夢 can be pronounced as Asumu
With 38 behind (後ろ38, pronounced Ushiromiya), we finally get
右代宮明日夢 Ushiromiya Asumu

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101261

Sounds a bit too farfetched.

[Anonymous No.]

we can do the same numbers brainfuck with Hachijou Touya name, lol. XD

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101261
This is about as believable as the theories that claim X person is the antichrist by adding up numbers in their name and doing all sorts of things until it finally gets 666. The guy who did that wanted to reach asumu and so he did.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101231

>Why is Shannon's corpse not seen directly by Battler in the shed? Why won't Hideyoshi let George see it? Shkanon.

# the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed

* (Used by Lambdadelta in ????? for Episode 1.)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101293
You forgot the first part of this red text, try again.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101293
she didn't use red, since there was red only from episode 2.
"You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101293
Lambda doesn't say that first.

Beato says that first. What does she say it in response to? Battler says the faces of the people who had their faces -completely- ripped off could not be identified, therefore they could be other people dressed up in the supposed victim's closed, therefore the killer could have been one of those supposed victims.

Shannon's corpse is not one of these corpses with the face completely ripped off. It is supposed to have half her face still there, like Krauss's. Hideyoshi "identifies" the corpse. Only the corpses without faces are "unidentified."

In essence, that line is the very thing that casts suspicion over ONLY Shannon's corpse. Krauss can be seen clearly by Battler, Battler clearly describes how Krauss has half his face so you can't tell it's him. Battler names four others he sees, Kyrie, Rudolf, Rosa and Gohda, by their clothes. He acknowledges there is a fifth corpse, but he never names it, and it is only revealed to be Shannon once Hideyoshi says so.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101304
Then why can't we trust Hideyoshi then?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101304
>Battler clearly describes how Krauss has half his face so you can't tell it's him
That should be so you CAN tell it's him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101304
and we can never be sure he wasn't lying

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101310
Why can we?

[Anonymous No.]

we know that at least in episode 3 Hideyoshi played along with Eva's lie (he "stayed" with her in the room)

we can't trust him

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101328

Yeah, no doubt, episode 3 was very fishy for Eva and Hideyoshi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101231
Which one of those is a "CLOSED ROOM", he talks in the interview?
For the first episode you said it yourself, it's possible for Kanon only, no need for Shkannon.
>Who gave Maria the letter?
Anyone. Kanon running may be related, may be not. Or Kanon dressed as Beatrice. After all, if he can dress as Shannon by your theory, surely he can dress as Beato, right? No need for Shkannon.

>When Kanon cut the chain he killed them.
How it supports Shkannon?

>Why is Shannon's corpse not seen directly by Battler in the shed?
Obstacles.
>Why won't Hideyoshi let George see it? Shkanon.
Sometimes it may that what it appears to be: he did want him to see her mutilated face.

>How were Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji and Natsuhi killed when there should have been nobody who could kill them at the time? Who was the Beatrice that appeared afterwards?
Kanon dressed as Beatrice. Still no need for Shkannon, sorry.

>How did Kanon's body disappear from Jessica's room?
Culprit disposed of it.
>Why did the servants first thought who they saw was Kanon, but then think otherwise?
They lied.
>Why do Shannon, Gohda and George die in a closed room locked from the inside with only them inside, when there is nobody available at the time to murder them?
Shannon killed them, and then committed suicide. Or Jessica hid under the bed. No need for Shkannon. Too bad.

[Anonymous No.]

So, Jessica, George, Hideyoshi, Genji, Nanjo, Kanon & Shannon. These people are in on it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101334

Not the person you were responding to but I always think It's odd that people assume you need to dress up as Beatrice to trick Maria.

For example Gohda (random person, no thought gone into choosing him) could have just gave Maria the letter and told him Beatrice gave Gohda the letter to pass onto Maria.

So now Maria thinks it is from Beatrice, although actually from Gohda.

Think little old Maria is innocent to believe it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101334
*he didn't want him

[Anonymous No.]

Maria is fooled to easily.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101334
I said at the start they weren't closed rooms. But he mentions riddles, then he mentions closed rooms.

What you are doing is presenting alternate solutions to the mysteries. You are not proving my solutions impossible. You keep stressing the "need" for Shkanon. When there is a need, this is no longer a mystery. Shkanon simply becomes the answer. Essentially, you are saying you will not accept Shkanon as a possible answer until it is the actual answer.

Your answers don't link together at all to form with the secret of Beatrice that the room in episode 6 supposedly gives a huge hint to.

[Anonymous No.]

we can suspect George about that, since Maria beleives everything he says, because he's a "honest" guy after all

[Anonymous No.]

did I hear somone says
TROLLING?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101370
However Maria says Beatrice killed Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa and told her to sing a song. This can't have been George.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101394
but we just know that Maria believes really easily to people.
you see how many times Battler is tricking her?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101406
Even if she is easily tricked, it seems like she still deceives by herself. She says Beatrice turned into butterflies and flew through the lock. How is someone supposed to trick her into saying that?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101413
Maria is a real problem in the story, since she's really in the "witch theory" after all

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101413
This is probably her way of keeping a promise to a witch.

[Anonymous No.]

maybe we should just accept the witch's existence, give up and die?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101363
What am I saying is that many of those riddles are not actually riddles. You took your "key" and invented the "riddles" to support it.
In the first place, you can't claim it's the only solution of his escape, because then you must prove that the any other solution is impossible. Good luck on it.

[Anonymous No.]

Endless six....
Episode 6: Dawn of the Golden Witch

* Translation: 6%
* Editing: 0%

so many answers are waiting there, damn.

[Anonymous No.]

K: Thanks. I think the next question is the key to EP4, that is, the dark side of Maria's magic. This is a very unexpected element. With respect to the plot up to this point, this is also a very important addition. Is this something you've planned on revealing in EP4 from the beginning?

R07: This is one of the themes we'd planned on revealing in the question arc. You can think of it as a major clue to revealing the world view... eh, it's difficult to describe.

K: Is it because this question is too close to the core of the story?

R07: If you fully understand the world of Umineko, then you would find that this is an additional element pertaining to Beatrice. Without the meeting with Maria, there wouldn't be this present Beatrice as she is now. To Beatrice, Maria is an existence she cannot belittle; moreover, she is a crucial element in creating the "present Beatrice". So just talking about the plot of the story alone, the meeting between Maria and Beatrice at least causes some chemical reaction to the world of 1986.


Maria is a crucial part of the answer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101431
I wasn't the person who claimed the only solution was Shkanon. I know various solutions to it, but I can't say I know of any other solutions that have anything to do with Beatrice. The riddles of the letter and such are major ones. There is much ado about who gives the letters, and Kanon's corpse disappearing. There being alternate solutions does not any way invalidate that Shkanon is actually an easy way to solve a great deal of them, or more accurately Shkanontrice, making Shkanon the culprit and "Beatrice" figure.

First, you take the main narrative episode 6, which is the battle between the three couples where for some reason, only one couple is allowed to exist, and that one of the partners (Kanon, Shannon, or Beatrice) must win and consume the souls of the other two in order to become a full human. Then, you combine that with the closed room in episode 6, and you can arrive at Shkanontrice. Only one couple is allowed to exist because there is only one person being coupled with three others.

[Anonymous No.]

for me Shkanon theory seems to be "too easy" and too "obvious"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101495
Episode 6 doesn't have any difficulty whatsoever, as said R07, it only presented answers.
You just delude yourself into thinking that the answer will be brick shitting for some reason, stop that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101495
By episode 6 it should be obvious.
>Especially after this last game, where we placed several hints that verged on answers,
(interview)
>There no longer is any difficulty level. By now, this is not a hint, but a confession
(Episode 6 menu description)

The more obvious the "answer" the better. But even so, even if it is an answer, this would only be a "key."
>Ryuukishi: I think so. I think there are many people who have found the 'key' that leads to the truth.
However, it looks as though very few people have actually taken that key, returned to the previous episodes, and put it in the keyhole.
If you accept Shkanon as the key it is no the truth, but something that would lead to the truth is you throughly investigate the episodes with it as an aid, and read new conclusions that would be the truths.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101509
Seriously if Shkanontrice is the answer... fuck you Ryukishi, fuck you.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't know, it just that I really don't like Shkanon theory, it annoys me

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101564
It's because it makes the story stupid(er)

[Anonymous No.]

Everything that is speculated before the actual unboxing is considered as truth, in deference to the world of Umineko. Surely, we are all creating our own theories, and there's nothing wrong with that. We will see if our truth can be defeated by the future truth of Episode 6, but that would have to wait for a year or another because Witch Hunt seems to be taking a lot of time translating this one heck of a shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101589
YES. so much. Shkanontrice makes this story annoying. I hope Ryukishi won't do that.

>>5101595
WITCH HUNNTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101589
It also makes the conclusion disappointing. Can't dismiss the provided evidence, but how is it feasible that one person is assigned to two tasks as a servant?

[Phantom Renegade No.]

ShKannon DOES solve some problems (it's A solution to the closed rooms, but not the only one), but the biggest flaw it has is Motive. It's weak or moronic (lovesrtuck with a 10 year-old?)


What's Battler's escape like? What happens in it that is so important?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101527
What are you going on about? if Shkanon is the answer, we've already pulled apart the first four episodes to the brink and we're still no closer to motive or, in a few cases, method.

Besides, Shkanon would demonstrate a major flaw: Ryukishi is making this mystery work only by having the rest of the cast pick up the IdiotBall and run with it all nine yards. Kanon dressing up as Shannon only to throw others off, not because of a MPD, is sufficient in that regard. But Shkanontrice is outright ridiculous; the only reason we'd be letting Kanon dress as Shannon is because they do look enough alike to pull it off.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101527
Well, my conclusion from using ShKanon as a key is that it is a troll, because it does not fit anywhere and doesn't create any sense-making scenario whatsoever. However, with Jesstrice and Kyrietrice you can very well see everyone's possible train of thoughts.

See E3. Natsuhi is pretty much confirmed to have faked death and protected Jessica and yet she died before Nanjo, Battler didn't see the critical part that made his piece accuse Eva of being the culprit, and Kyrie and Hideyoshi's deaths and general behavioral patterns are very strange.(If she was honest, Kyrie should've told Krauss and Natsuhi to begin with). And it's NOT your usual culprit. So much shit must've happened when we didn't look.

Oh yeah, ShKanonfag, all of your arguments can be solved differently. And half of them probably didn't even fucking happen. Kanon himself, maybe manipulated, is enough for the whole E1. You can't confirm Eva and Hideyoshi's E1 death at all. Maria could have the letter from the last year, even. You can't really trust any 3rd person narration, not to mention part of E2 that involves Genji this much. There was a bundle of copied keys lying before the church in E4, so the key thingy is a troll, save the exception of #This room's door can only be open with Jessica's own single key or the master keys")

[Phantom Renegade No.]

>>5101624
AND he/she/they would need to look like Beatrice's portrait too. Unless he/she/it was the model for it. Then it's amazing Battler didn't notice the resembleance.

[Anonymous No.]

The higher the expectations are, the higher the fall.
Can't wait for the backlash.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101632
>See E3. Natsuhi is pretty much confirmed to have faked death
Sorry, not to nitpick, but didn't Jessica pull out the stakes from her parents bodies?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101632
Since when is Kyrietrice even a considered theory? Jessitrice and Kyrietrice certainly both make no sense with episode 6.

Your argument that you haven't be able to take Shkanon to episodes 1-4 and reveal worthwhile is pretty weak. R07 says that few people have been able to discern much with it. Do you want to be one of those few, or do you think you are one of those special few when the answer is Jesstrice of Kyrietrice? You're dismissing the theory because you didn't solve the mystery with it.

>See E3. Natsuhi is pretty much confirmed to have faked death and protected Jessica and yet she died before Nanjo,
what

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101632
The funny thing there is that she very well could have told them and THAT'S EXACTLY why did they fake their deaths. We know what they hide and know how they work, this is way beyond what they have the balls to do.

Then again, Kinzo is in the first twilight, which implies, that they had to pull him out. The beginning of the episode might actually be about those two wanting the servants to do something outrageous and law breaking, the servants freaked out, said they will tell the police, Natsuhi panicks, intimidates someone with a gun, shoots someone, shit happens...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101632
>There was a bundle of copied keys lying before the church in E4
I don't think anyone even goes near the chapel in episode 4. Explain yourself.

[Phantom Renegade No.]

>You're dismissing the theory because you didn't solve the mystery with it.

Right theory, wrong execution?

[Anonymous No.]

Battler saw their bodies.
Same for Eva and Hideyoshi in episode 1.

[Phantom Renegade No.]

>>5101673
Battler goes to the church while looking for others and finds the 5 master keys the servants had

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101660
>>5101662
1)Watch Episode 4 opening movie once again.
2)Take attention to the part where Evatrice laughs over the heart.
3)Pay close attention to it, take a screenshot
4)????
5)Profit!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101673
Battler asked where Maria was after she started walking off the balcony, and she told him to go look in the chapel.

[No.]

>>5100986
Is that decimal, or hexadecimal?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101669
Natsuhi is the culprit now? Are you one of those "Natsuhi isn't the culprit in episode 5, but I guess she could be the culprit in all other episodes" people?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101681
No, he finds a "big bundle of keys on a ring", if I remember correctly. I did think it could be the master keys, but then again, who would bundle those together? He would have to be obsessive-compulsive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101689
I'm aware of the movie opening, but what does that have to do with Natsuhi faking her death? Jessica pulled the stakes from her parents bodies, and neither of them reacted to the pain.

[Phantom Renegade No.]

>>5101694
nobody knows. Only thing confirmed it's that it's PIN for bank accounts with lotta money on them

[Phantom Renegade No.]

>>5101689
pic or it didn' happen

>>5101701
fake bodies don't react to pain

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101712
There's a one winged eagle on the heart.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101701
That scene is quite strange. Nobody other that Nanjo and her looked inside, as far as we know. And she was like "I am gonna kill you Beatrice, durrrr", flies iside, pulls the stakes, asks Nanjo whether they are dead, takes them with her and leaves.
Strangulation by a thin object is quite easy to fake, the bodies just laid there, it's not like they had loops on them or anything.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101715
Inside? Their bodies were outside.

[Anonymous No.]

aghhh.. I HATE shkanontrice/ shkanon theory.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101718
Sitting on chairs at the garden to be exact

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101734
Their bodies were found lying on the ground in the arbor..

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101715
You're putting the two adults who have been shown to be the most clearly innocent and saying they faked their deaths. Even if you accept that, how would they die after that point? Battler and Eva were still alive, Battler was following Eva the whole time. Is Nanjo supposed to have killed Natsuhi and Krauss? Or is Jessica supposed to have?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101718
Furthermore, what do you mean neither Nanjo nor Battler looked? Battler even looks at the scene and asks Nanjo what he thinks. Battler clearly describes the scene. Are we even reading the same VN?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101718
Sitting inside the garden arbour

>>5101698
Nah, more like I can't help believing that at some points. Beatrice is, if nothing else, definitely "inside Natsuhi's head" in E5 and that one act of the E3 Beatrice is very propably personified by her, too. I believe that in the end it pretty much comes down to Beatrice = Ushiromiya family, it's just that everyone has his own Beato and there are differences, see Evatrice.

[Anonymous No.]

er.
but what about the numbers?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101801
Nobody knows.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101777
>>5101756
I already explained, if you had only read what I wrote. They could've done it for more reasons, but the most logical one that I can think of is that Kyrie just tells them about Hideyoshi being suspicious and that if they fail to negotiate with him, Natsuhi with Krauss should somehow hide and try to stop Eva. And they just can't think of any better way.
And then there is the unchallenged red about Kyrie or Hideyoshi surviving. That by itself is enough to explain Nanjo. I guess George could not kill him, because Battler diagnosized him to be looking very dead. Mind you, E3 is "the most beautifully set board".

Battler said something like.

There were Natsuhi oba-san and Krauss-oji chan, with stakes sticking from their legs.
"What do you think, doctor Nanjo?"
"Yes, death by strangulation, I believe..."

I read those parts over some time ago looking for holes, find none. You are welcome to look now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101820
I'm still not seeing how Natsuhi and Krauss died. Looking over the scene, you can't really say Jessica looked any more than Battler or Nanjo or Eva did. Kyrie, Hideyoshi and Rudolf are the ones whose corpses are barely described. That passage is very vague.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101820
EP3's first twilight really is beautiful. There are so many wonderfully devious things you can do with that locked room setup. For instance, did you realize that a single person in the chain could have easily added an extra room to it without the knowledge of any of the others? It's a circular linked list.

[Anonymous No.]

those numbers open a secret hatch dog, no lie

[Anonymous No.]

>There were Natsuhi oba-san and Krauss-oji chan, with stakes sticking from their legs.
"What do you think, doctor Nanjo?"
"Yes, death by strangulation, I believe..."

Fuuu... I've completely let that slip by. I didn't notice it until now. Thanks for the enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101917

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101917
Because a doctor giving his opinion of the cause of death after being told to look at the corpses is massively suspicious, and someone pointing that out to you is enlightenment, now? Nanjo gives another autopsy earlier in the episode, and it is accurate.

[Anonymous No.]

Quick question, the red truth regarding the identities of all unidentified corpses was used in episode 4. But does red truth only apply to the episode it's used in or can it be applied to all the episodes?

[Anonymous No.]

It's pretty funny how some people are ready to create the most retarded theories like that one about Natsuhi just to avoid ShKanon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101965
Nobody is going to give you a definite answer. Look at the context. She uses it when referring to episode 1. If you want to argue it only applies to one episode, it should be episode 1, not 4.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101990
E3Natsuhifag here.

I'm not disregaridng it and I am actually afraid that due to all the foreshadowing it's very well possible - it's just that while it does explain E6, it does not explain everything and there propably so much more to it all, that people who figured out everything possible up until now will have something to be etnertained by in E7.

And there is not even any need for ShKanon, you can just go with "Kanon is already dead and Jessica does not know and trusts him", which makes much more sense than a personality disorder. Too bad you are not creative enough even with those easy-to-use Shannoningans.

[Phantom Renegade No.]

>>5101965
Most of the time they're precise on what Episode the red is about (ie, "In this game", "in the previous game", "in all games")

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102024
There is a need for ShKanon, thematically-wise.
And it does help lots of stuffs, like the whole Shannon/Kanon die in red yet can still kill which basically solve lots of stuffs.

The Natsuhi stuff you are proposing is the one which doesn't help anything, nor does it make sense given everything we saw so far.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102052
Not to mention it's very very loose with episode 5. I think it's stupid for us to have episode 5, and then turn around and have Natsuhi be a killer after all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101991
I read episode 4 a long time ago and cannot actually remember the context. I'm just looking at a list of all the red truths used and which episode they were used in, not their context.

But still if it applies to episode 1 then that still helps, thanks.

[Phantom Renegade No.]

>>5102024
problem is that THAT theory makes Jess look even worse than Natsuhi in terms of delusional. And Shannon would be screwed up too

[Anonymous No.]

Shkannontrice does not solve the fact that Battler sees Beatrice on the game board, in person, as the first person detective, and says that she looks just like the painting, despite the fact that she's wearing a completely different outfit, more similar to Jessica's. Neither Shannon nor Kanon look like the painting. It was also said that Shannon is quite small, whereas with an impressive figure like Beatrice it would be remarked if she was below average height. It also renders doubt on Kanon as he'd have to be the same height which is even tinier for a guy.

If Beatrice was Asumu with some trickery getting around the number limit(maybe Shkannon as well, but they're not Beatrice), I'd shit bricks.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102058
It applies to episode 1. You should re-read the scene, the episode 4 tea party.
It's basically like this:
Battler: you can explain this if the corpses in the shed with their faces ripped of were just body doubles dressed in the same clothes, so one of those people could still be alive, and be the culprit.
Beatrice: (red) Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

Lambda later repeats the first part again.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102074
You forgot that Battler never saw Beatrice up close.
Except for the end of episode 1 but we didn't really get his impressions there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102074
Getting around the number limit would be stupid. Shkanon is no longer used to get around the number limit.
In episode 4, we have "less than 17, this applies to all games"
In episode 5, we have "the number is the same excluding Erika"
In episode 6, we have "even if erika is counted, it's 17 people."

By this we can discern that there are only 16 people without Erika. So there are only 16 in the first 4 games. There is no room for another person. Furthermore, this red is used when people have already died. This proves the "less than X" was never allowed to be worked around by having people die and other people enter, like what was popularly theorized.

[Queen Kittan !!c8PMeMuxr0s No.]

>>5102093

Irrelevant, as it's stated that the Detective is not mistaken in observations such as that. They make a big point of this in Episode 5. Erika is much worse, listening through walls.

If he was that far away, he wouldn't have made the remark to begin with since the most notable part of Beatrice was the dress.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102103
I'll add that:
# Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island.
# I will lower that by one for Kinzo!!
# No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
# That excludes any 18th person.
# In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!
# This applies to all games!!!

I think "this applies to all games" applies to 5 and 6 as well. Since there are 16 in the first few games, which is no more than 17, then episode 5 and 6 where it's exactly 17, which is no more than 17. I don't see why "this applies to all games" would be subverted with episode 5. The other "this applies to all games" red is Kinzo's death.

We're never actually told in episode 5 that the limit has suddenly raised. We're just told that the number is now +1 of what it was for Erika.

[Anonymous No.]

Why is it that Battler rarely hears a gunshot?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102107
The detective is allowed to be mistaken, he just can't lie about what he say. Erika god-moding everywhere does not change this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102107
Nice and all but Battler isn't omniscient.
And it's not like there is something to debate, this Beatrice HAS to be one of the 16.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102125
They've got one big ass mansion. The only time Battler hears a gunshot outside his line of vision is in Episode 1, where Natsuhi separated herself from the group to take on Beatrice.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102132
He's probably trying to imply the Beatrice was Jessica. This is where doubletrice would come in. Even in that scene, we are shown another Beato, in a dress. If the dress one is Shkanon and the suit one is Jessica, it works. In episode 1, the Beatrice can't be Jessica, and Battler doesn't see her clearly. In episode 4 he does see her rather well, so it's more believable if we take someone who actually looks like Beatrice.

[Anonymous No.]

Erika is pro-mystery while Battler is anti-fantasy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102074
I don't remember, was the height of Shannon ever mentioned, at least with comparison to other characters?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102154
Shannon is the same height as Kanon, Kanon is a smaller build than Battler, not sure about actual height though. I don't think this matters much. Anyone would seem small compared to Battler, it's not something he would really comment on. Beatrice isn't taller than him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102163
>Shannon is the same height as Kanon
Quote/screen, please. I can say this much myself, but I want proof.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102169
I'm only thinking of the anime when I say that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102147
The Beatrice of the end of episode 4 talk about stuffs only the one Battler talked to in the flashback of episode 6 would know.
This person was most certainly not Jessica.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102144
I just checked the TIPS it's strange how no one has a bullet wound resembling Battlers till EP3.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102185
Jessica and Shannon are friends, couldn't they share information? It makes sense with Jessica's phone call, where she is practically laughing, as well. I just find it hard to picture Shannon/Kanon appearing as Beatrice, even two storeys above, in the rain.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102176
Eh..the anime isn't too reliable because of the quality. Kanon's fluctuates throughout the episodes; some scenes he's taller than Beatrice, and in others, he's the same height.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102197
In that case, I have no evidence for any of that. Just that everyone would be shorter than Battler, so I can't see him commenting on the height of anyone. He'd be used to it.

[Anonymous No.]

Battler took steroids after all.
lol.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102195
Yeah but do you need it in the mystery?
There is no need for Doubletrice, it just over complicate everything.
Shannon had all the time in the world to do this, there is absolutely no need for Jessica to appear as Beatrice there.

[Anonymous No.]

This is the only scene I can find where Battler refers to Kanon's height. But this took place in the kitchen as Battler grabbed him by the neck.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102185
Given the content of that conversation, you might suspect that Battler didn't even know any girls were present at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102226
The EP6 conversation, that is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102235
It would pretty much have to be a girl though. Who isn't Jessica. Except for those guys who say it was Jessica disguised as someone.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102226
It would be 12 year old Battler, he can afford to be tactless. He's tactless enough at 19.

[Anonymous No.]

I like the Shannon =/= Kanon, but one kills the other shortly after the 2 days begins and masquerades as the other for a time, personally.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102238
How about Battler was talking to George, and there was a girl listening in that he didn't know about?

[Anonymous No.]

THEY ARE THE TRUE CO-ORDINATES TO THE ISLAND

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102223
I know, but I'm interested in Shannon's height to compare it with that exact scene.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102052
Hey, I am not saying that Natsuhi is the culprit, she is the good guy with a good intention.
It does help dramatizing the E3 finale. And this huge problem with Battler claiming that Eva is the culprit even though it's unthinkable if it was as we are shown at first. If there was nothing else, they arrived into the room. Nanjo is dead and Jessica might and might not be gone. One way or another, Battler was with Eva and she did nothing. The only reason for him to say that she is would be, if she did something that 1)makes her one(kills someone) 2)does something that would hopelessly freak him out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102258
In that scene, you basically see the whole conversation from someone's POV, and Battler is talking directly to that person.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102271
See, I can't get this scenario out of my head: Kyrie has a hole in her stomatch, but is alive, perhaps with Natsuhi's help. She knows that Nanjo misdiagnosized her and goes ahead to take him out. After that, she goes and questions Jessica's innocence, maybe they overheard her actual conversation with Nanjo, which was about something completely different. Or she just found some proof about Jessica being deep in. They argue, Natsuhi can't accept her daughter being like that, she desperately protects Jessica's innocence because she's her little girl, the almos-dead dead-on realist Kyrie kills Natsuhi, partly because the pain drives her insane and she just wants to take out everyone dangerours to Battler before she dies. Then she wants to proceed to Jessica, but Battler and Eva arrive.
The first thing they see is bloody Kyrie leaning on the wall with a rifle in her hand. Kyrie thinks that she can not make it, so in her last breath she points her gun at the person she wanted to kill to begin with, Eva, who promptly headshots her. Being shown this, (Nanjo obviously lied and so Kyrie would've been the good guy), Battler snaps, freaks out and says that Eva is the culprit because why would such shit happen otherwise. Whether Eva did any part of it or not, she is out of her mind enough to believe that her witch did the rest while she didn't look.

With the OP hint of "Natsuhi somehow died protecting Jessica" in, you can create a ton of scenarios like this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102193
It does different things on different bodily parts and I guess that mostly, the wound changes and more blood comes out because of the stakes.

Then again, Kanon is a good shooter. E1, eleven people shot right in the head, those are some h&x skillz.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102274
Would Battler actually say something like that to the girl he had a huge crush on?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102277
Why you need Natsuhi for that? Can't Kyrie just kill Nanjo and be shot by Eva as you say?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102318
Because drama.

I admit, I just personally hope for a Meakashi-like E3 from Kyrie's POW.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102312
We don't know when that conversation took place.
It could be that she fell for him first, asked him about his taste in girl, cue this scene, decide to seduce him and manages to do it.
Basically he didn't have to have a crush on her during that scene, could have happened later.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102318
Also, as I said, according to the Opening movie and THE HEART. "Natsuhi dies killed by Evatrice while protecting Jessica". That part is hard to pull out without someone else killing her while Eva is not there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102335
And this is Battler we're talking about. It's not like he had a crush on Shannon that he was trying to hide. He said that pony stuff after all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102312
..Probably not. If the promise was not made between him and 'Beatrice', he got some girl's hopes up and unknowingly hurt her.

The funny thing is..I don't even think Battler knows Shannon's real name.

[Anonymous No.]

There's no reason to be stingy with suspects. If somebody is clearly unnecessary for theory, leave him out, but otherwise you can have all the suspects you can eat. No rule says there should be only one or two.

Try this crazy idea on for size: EVERY single character, due to some already speculated reason or being just crazy, some unaware of each other or in cooperation, attempts to kill somebody. You'll find this kind of nuke theory is impossible to disprove.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102426
We can only hope Dine rules pop up in Ep7.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102426

It's certainly more easy to make up theories like that to solve everything.

But we're involving every little detail and trying to make flawless theories so we can reach the ultimate truth ourselves.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102450

A noble goal, but considering Ryu07 knew he'd have to invent a mystery that the entire Internet wouldn't be able to defeat quickly, I suspect he didn't play very fair with it.

He already uses Christie for inspiration. Christie wrote Orient Express.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102445
Umineko contradicts many of them, so no.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5101689

I must have done it wrong?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102450
There are plenty of the fake clues and details, maybe even more than real ones.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102492

Yeah, no doubt R07 filled it up with red herrings, but still.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102479

Some of the Dine rules are weird anachronisms (no romance allowed, culprit must not be a servant), but I wish he had observed this one:

>2. No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.

[Anonymous No.]

>8. The problem of the crime must he solved by strictly naturalistic means. Such methods for learning the truth as slate-writing, ouija-boards, mind-reading, spiritualistic se'ances, crystal-gazing, and the like, are taboo. A reader has a chance when matching his wits with a rationalistic detective, but if he must compete with the world of spirits and go chasing about the fourth dimension of metaphysics, he is defeated ab initio.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102533
Basically it's the same as Knox's 2nd.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102524

What? I think R07 followed that one; in every episode the view of the reader is also the view of the detective. Battler sees all the same stupid magic fights and distorted perspective that you do.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102540
So, you're accepting that the criminal is the witch in metaworld then?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102540

I suppose technically he did, but I don't think the spirit of the rule allowed for a seemingly omnipotent assclown constantly doing her everything to distract the detective.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102540
>>5102555

Reminds me of the classics "Sherlock Holmes Gets High As a Kite" and "Hercule Poirot and the Mystery of the Magic Mushrooms"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102533
Doesn't that mean you can't use Red Text or is that so far meta that Ryukishi is willfully letting his characters break the fourth wall for your "benefit?"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102577

The red text is there because Ryu07 wrote himself in the corner very early on by making the narrator completely unreliable. It exists, like Beatrice said, because otherwise there would be no reason to make any argument other than "everything is bullshit, I refuse to play".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102577
The meta-world part and the mystery part are separate.
Basically Rokkenjima part = mystery novel
Meta-world part = debate session about this novel with the author.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102480

No really, can somebody tell me what I'm supposed to be seeing in this heart picture?

That guy said it shows the reason Natsuhi faked her death or something but I'm seeing nothing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102602
One-winged Eagle engraved on the heart, just like imaginary Kinzo told Natsuhi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102585

Are you implying that you can't have a solvable mystery with an unreliable narrator?

Because there are tons of them.

The red text takes the place of proper evidence.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102612

Ooh yeah I see it now.

... Don't see how that translates to "Natsuhi didn't kill herself but faked it" though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102623
>Because there are tons of them.
Name please. I want to practice a little.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102612
But Beatrice is the one who truly has the one-winged eagle engraved on her heart. She IS the Ushiromiya family, in a sense. Or something like that.

>>5102479
In the TIPS for Episode 5, there's a bit in the entry about the Eiserne Jungfrau, iirc, that talks about the SSVD division, and how its head uses "twelve lances" or something. Ryukishi is probably going to use the rules of Dine that he has not violated and ignore the rest.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102623
>Are you implying that you can't have a solvable mystery with an unreliable narrator?

I'm not implying it, I'm stating it outright. You cannot solve a mystery when the narration flat out LIES to you.

>Because there are tons of them.

I doubt it. Name a couple.

>The red text takes the place of proper evidence.
The red text takes the place of everything, even sensory input. Nothing in Umineko is reliable unless stated in red, including the things the detective sees and hears. I'm not even sure this sort of thing can be called unreliable narrator, more like "lying insipid useless fuck of a narrator".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102624
Obviously, it's the scene where Siestas reapeatedly attempt to kill Beatrice, but she doesn't die. That's the "Evatrice&The Heart" scene. If THAT heart had an eagle crest on it, that would mean, well...

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102643

It would mean precisely nothing since that entire scene is one of the many, many illusions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102643

Hmm, dunno, sounds a bit far fetched but I'll keep it in mind.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102638
The narration is only unreliable when the detective is not the one narrating; even when the detective is not quite in their right mind (for example, when drunk), what they experience still has some truth to it.

In fact, in Episodes 1~4, all magic scenes have hints of some sort hidden within them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102638
>>5102633
Why not start with The Murder of Roger Ackroyd, since Ryukishi was kind enough to name-drop it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102664
The main problem is when the narration alternates between first-person detective view and third-person without warning, like what happens at the end of Episode 2. That scene in Kinzo's study is really tricky if you don't pay close attention to the wording of the narration.f


Though, speaking of that scene, the parts narrated by Battler pretty much confirm the presence of someone other than Genji, Battler, and Kinzo's corpse.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102637
>In the TIPS for Episode 5, there's a bit in the entry about the Eiserne Jungfrau, iirc, that talks about the SSVD division, and how its head uses "twelve lances" or something.
So what? It doesn't prove anything. You even have no guarantee that this tale follows Knox's rules, let alone Dine's.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102664
>In fact, in Episodes 1~4, all magic scenes have hints of some sort hidden within them.
Especially prison break in ep4.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102638
We're getting information about this mystery from witness testimony. Sometimes the witness is one of the human characters. Sometimes the witness is Beatrice. News flash: witnesses lie. All the time. Picking out the truth from the lies is the detective's goddamn job.

[None !Irru.HYnts No.]

Hm, listen to this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTXVblPUnhU

Middle of the song.
Kinda curious.

If can't be arsed to watch it, it's the Ep 6 ??? credit song, and it supposedly has the numbers in German.

[None !Irru.HYnts No.]

>>5102691
It's at the 1:32 mark, if you wanna hear just that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102671
"The Murder of Roger Ackroyd" has a reliable narrator in a sense that he doesn't LIE, he just doesn't say the whole truth, doesn't mentions details etc. Umineko narrator outright lies to you many times.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102671
Even better, go read And Then There Were None, by Agatha Christie (not sure if it'd been mentioned yet).

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102732
It's been mentioned over and over in Umineko

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102696
I think the narrator in Endless Night, also by Agatha Christie, was more conventionally unreliable. Besides that, The Moonstone (Wilkie Collins) and An Instance of the Fingerpost (Iain Pears) used multiple conflicting unreliable narrators.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102732
Again, which part of it was unreliable? You have no detective, but all see is a truth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102691
That song is actually pretty interesting, reading the translated lyrics...

But so, it seems the numbers are broken up as 0, 7, 15, 11, and 29?

>>5102746
I meant mentioned in this thread. I know it's been mentioned in Umineko.

[Anonymous No.]

Let me illustrate the problem with Umineko's deception tactics. We're back at episode 1, red text has not been introduced yet, but we now do know scenes can be illusions/hallucinations.

"No murders happened at all. Everything is somebody's hallucination, imagination or daydream. Witches, of course, don't exist in the real world and are just tricks of the mind; there is no need to explain anything because nothing even happened at all."

There. Solved. This is perfectly legal under Umineko's own internal logic. The only way to stop it, as per Umineko's own rules, is to redtext something to the effect "some parts of what you just saw are real; some people actually died".

This isn't a mystery. This is a waste of reader's time.

I do like Umineko, but only as a distraction. As a mystery it crippled itself the moment it took the easy route and made everything unreliable.

[Queen Kittan !!c8PMeMuxr0s No.]

>>5102130

He still wouldn't have made that judgement call if she wasn't even wearing the same dress. If he can't notice that Shannon looks like Beatrice up close, why would he remark that from far away, when she's still not dressed like the portrait?

Also; both real Beatrice and Shannon have Tattoos on their leg. The OPPOSITE leg, and it's not even the same shape.

There are purposeful red herrings to both Jessica and Shannon being Beatrice, one being the costume, and the other being the tattoo as above, which doesn't make sense if you check what side it's on.

Beatrice is visually too similar to Jessica for Battler not to notice if they were the same person too.

There's also the fact that Beatrice is most likely western. People don't seem to consider this. It's never mentioned whether S&K are actually asian or not, but it probably rules out Jessica.

Obviously we can't judge too much by the sprites but I doubt that visual clues in a visual novel are useless.

[None !Irru.HYnts No.]

>>5102758
Yep. But, I think that's because if you say "sieben", you'll just say 7.

There's no way to really say 07.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102763
Wrong. We know that what Battler told us he saw in that Episode was real, because we know that Battler was the detective for that Episode (for all of the first four Episodes, in fact).

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102771

And we can trust Battler's own perceptions, because...?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102750
I'll into it.

>>5102763
You lack love. You can even question red text, if you really want to trust no one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102777
Because if you don't trust the detective, No the author, you can't solve it. That's been flat out told to us

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102777
Applying the knowledge that narration can be unreliable to Episode 1 is pointless if you don't apply the knowledge that Battler's narration was reliable.

[None !Irru.HYnts No.]

>>5102777
Some Knox rule.

The detective is not allowed to make observations that are lies.

And if you're gonna say

>But where does it say that Umineko follows Knox?

Then you best give up. If you question that now, there's no way you'll be able to 'love' the text.

[None !Irru.HYnts No.]

>>5102802
Although....

the beginning of this movie seriously brings doubts to my thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Jfalz9NABU

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102695
It's also at around the 3:05 or 3:06 mark.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102790

And that exactly is the problem with Umineko.

Its lying, cheating narrator turns it from a potentially interesting mystery into horseshit. Entertaining horseshit, I'll admit, but calling it a mystery is an insult to real mysteries and trying to "solve" it is an even more fruitless task than trying to solve Higurashi (which withheld critical information until the end) was.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102802
Ryu07 really should have done all the Knox stuff by episode 2. Holding it to Episode 5 served no purpose but to confuse the readers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102802
I'm reminded of that bit in the Anti-mystery vs. Anti-fantasy TIP where Ryukishi made fun of the idea that detectives had to cry to God for confirmation that a mystery was solvable before actually trying to solve it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102811
> Ryu07 really should have done all the Knox stuff by episode 2.
He had Beatrice hint towards it when she made her statements about sealed rooms.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102806
Do keep in mind that that opening was never used, and was more of an extra than anything else.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102810
The narrators don't lie arbitrarily all over the place. They lie under specific circumstances for specific reasons. If you haven't put in the effort to figure out those circumstances and reasons, it's not because the author is bad at writing. It's because you are lazy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102814
He really feels like he is too full of himself at time.
If after all this, the answer really is the shitty contrived DID meido, well I won't look forward to his next work.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102777
Because he's the detective, and Beato and Battler's game follows Knox's rules.

I don't mind the rest of Umineko turning into a massive "Knox says this" quotefest, if it means we get more delicious Dlanor.

[None !Irru.HYnts No.]

>>5102833
Yeah, I know that.

But still, I wonder why he even made it.

Ah well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102826
Sorta hinting at it is stupid. If you're going to make rules for your mystery you need to explain them at the beginning. Even just dropping one instance of the word "Knox" would have been enough.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102810
When has the narration ever told a complete falsehood? Sure I'll give you the scenes where people see witches and demons and stuff. But those are from observers with a non objective point of view. Murders still happen at some given point in a similar way. So those scenes are really only half true and not falsehoods. If you really beleive all the narration is a lie than I don't think you've really took the time to reread it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102835
> The narrators don't lie arbitrarily all over the place.
Except when Lambda was the Game Master. But then, her game lacked love, after all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102806
That opening doesn't appear in the game itself.

[None !Irru.HYnts No.]

>>5102846
She said Knox.

If I remember it correctly it was something like:

"Was it Knox? Or was it <insert name>, I don't remember. *cackle*"

[Anonymous No.]

>>5100986

PIN for the bank accounts. It doesn't need to be terribly complicated.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102846
Even that hint was an enormous gift from Ryukishi. Have you ever read a mystery novel that said up front, "my story follows the Knox commandments"?

What mystery author has ever said up front, "My mystery follows Knox's rules"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102863
It was only the PIN for one of them, I thought.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102856
No., but it still appears in the music box like the other openings.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102846
Even that hint was an enormous gift from Ryukishi. Have you ever read a mystery novel that said up front, "my story follows the Knox commandments"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102879
Yes, that's why you'd expect him to do some mambo-jumbo with those rules.

[Anonymous No.]

7-G
1-A
5-F
1-A
1-A
2-B
9-I

GAFAABI

FAGBIAA
FAG BUYER

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102879
It wasn't told in the mystery part, it was told in the meta parts.
Mystery novels usually don't have a meta part.

[Anonymous No.]

29 / 5 // 07
it's a backwards date!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102857
Did she really? Maybe I'd forgotten about it.

>>5102879
It was more necessary in this case because of how much fantasy content is in it. Up until late in episode three I thought all that stuff might actually be happening. It probably lead me not to see a lot of important possibilities so I'm rereading it now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102863
It has some other meaning, probably connected to epitaph.


K: When the sequence "07151129" appeared in EP3, I tried using this method, but it didn't work. Nonetheless, in EP4, we are given new information concerning this set of numbers.

R07: Yes, I gave out new information. The method mentioned just now is usable. So... how should I say this. Hmm, it's a bit difficult; Kinzo's riddle is too hard. It can be solved, but it's really hard. So the probability of solving the epitaph is astronomical, just like what Kinzo had said. This kind of ridiculous code cannot be deciphered. But if someone who can solve this code appears, then this is a miracle -- I suppose you can say that. If Kinzo doesn't want to hand the gold over to anyone else, then he could just hide the gold in some secret place. To deliberately write out the location of the hidden gold as a epitaph and let the whole world to see, it's like he's announcing that he doesn't want to pass down the gold and his wealth to anyone, but if someone miraculously solves the riddle, then he will give it to them.


R: [Concerning "07151129"] Irrespective of whether each number has a meaning, at least the eight numbers combined together has a certain significance. I can only say this: Just think of it as a PIN number. People who hold the key or the key card couldn't get into the safe without this sequence of numbers. That means, as long as you know this number sequence, it's possible to gain a large sum of money. Aside from that, since this 8-number sequence is used as an important PIN number, the numbers themselves must have some significance. Otherwise, those numbers themselves and the large sum of money...

[None !Irru.HYnts No.]

By the way, does anyone have the pastebin with the B0MB theory?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102893
John Dickson Carr used elements similar to red text a few times.

The Three Coffins (aka The Hollow Man) stated at the beginning that a few witnesses were giving sincere reports; neither adding nor omitting anything.

The Nine Wrong Answers had a number of footnotes announcing that various hypotheses that the reader might have were wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102835
>The narrators don't lie arbitrarily all over the place.

And we know THIS how? Because it would turn the "mystery" into stupid bullshit? Well gee, that just happens to be the problem!

We don't know fucking anything. If you want to solve Umineko, you're best off ignoring everything that isn't red, as it can only distract you from the truth: it cannot possibly give you information you could trust. And believing even the red is a "he can't be THAT stupid, can he?" thing. I believe red because I think that after breaking the reader's trust once (making the white text unreliable) and promising to make amends, he wouldn't be retarded enough to do it /again./ But he very well could be. It's not like I know the guy.

Somebody above said that I don't have love. That I should just trust the writer. Well, I did in the beginning, like probably every reader does when opening a mystery novel. None of us start by going "this is all probably just horseshit" as it's a part of the unspoken pact between writer and reader that the writer does not cheat.

But Ryu07 cheated. He cheated and rubbed it in my face, much in the same way Beatrice did to Battler in ep3, and at that point it just went back to the old adage: fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, eat shit.

[Anonymous No.]

A code for a bombs numerical display. Might as well be the telephone kind of display. Hey guys... why did nobody mention the disabling code for the bomb yet?

Let's say, Eva might've not actually found the gold, let's say Kyrie did, there is a bomb in the mansion and you need this code (that is written in Kuwadorion alongside the gold) which disables it? So Kyrie was dying as some anon was saying up there are wrote those numbers on the door with her blood in the case that she'd die sooner, so that they could later find it and disable it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102924
> much in the same way Beatrice did to Battler in ep3
And just how much of what Beatrice did was fake? Here's a hint: it's less than you think.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102924
>But Ryu07 cheated. He cheated and rubbed it in my face, much in the same way Beatrice did to Battler in ep3.

You keep saying he's lying and cheating, but I don't see you explaining why you feel that way and when it happens. Your just expecting everyone to agree with you because to you Umineko isn't a mystery. Quit complaining.

[Anonymous No.]

I won't respect any mystery writer who use such a shitty plot device as Dissociative Identity Disorder in this day and age.
Especially when it's used to fool like 12 people or so.
Fucking shit, especially given how R07 spend all of the time masturbating about meta-fiction.

It's like someone discoursing about grand cuisine for hours, and in the end he serves you some overcooked fries.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102960
>You keep saying he's lying and cheating, but I don't see you explaining why you feel that way and when it happens.

"Explaining"? What is there to explain? The white text lies to the reader. Everybody admits this much.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102871

Weren't the same numbers given to Nanjo and Kumasawa?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102966

You best not be implying Shkanontrice is true.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102994
ShKanon is 95% sure
ShKanontrice is 80% sure.
It's the strongest theory out there, by far.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102986
We only know that Nanjo and Kumasawa's son got a pin card, along with Ange. They were all addressed to different people however (Ange's addressed to Rudolf, Nanjo's son to Nanjo, Kumasawa's son to Kumasawa) and were received after the murders occurred.

We don't know for sure if anyone else got one though. Only those three were mentioned but it's always possible someone like Kasumi got one (she probably threw it away because she hates Kyrie and all)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102966
> ShKanon is retarded
> That's why Umineko is shitty
> I can't enjoy Umineko anymore because I trust Ryukushi and therefore believe in ShKanon
> While at the same time I claim that Ryukushi can't be trusted anymore.
> ...!

...if you just distrusted Ryukushi one more time and stopped this faggotry, you might actually enjoy Umineko! What a twist!

Hooray! Back to the square one and welcome to our world! Congratulations! Congratulations! Congratulations!
*clap clap clap*

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102979
Just because the red text is 100% true does not mean the white text is 100% false. Battler found a cigarette but a 100 yen coin and a boat ticket in Kyrie's pocket. This was never said in red so does that mean the detective is lying to us because it's in white text? No it doesn't. Same with observers. We know that what they see isn't 100% true, but that doesn't mean they see is 100% false. It can be half true and even partially true. Saying that all the white text is alie is just showing your lack of trust. We can still find some hints in it and create our own answer based on that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103004
going from that:
Why the fuck would Rudolf get a card with money if he was deep in and about to die whilst knowing about it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103009
I trust in what Ryuukishi is trying to say in his story.
Doesn't mean I like it though.
Seriously, by now ShKanon is fucking obvious for most people, only a few obstinate people are still arguing against it.

[Anonymous No.]

wow this thread has been going on since morning , whats going on in here?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5102901
Let's see. If 0715 is Battler's birthday, then 1129 should also be someone's birthday. Who on the cast could have a birthday in late November AND be the nineteen-year-old master of the island AND have an interest in Battler's birthday?

Only Battler's family and Beato would care about his birthday. Only Beato is nineteen. And none of the human characters have a birthday in November, which means none of them can be Beato. Who does that leave...?

Oh, hello, Beatrice-2 who died in mid-1968 after living in Kuwadorian since 1948.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103004
Nanjo's son mentions that there were plenty of the cells highlighted by this PIN, about 20, so unless he's lying everyone got it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103002

You best be trollin'.

Shkanon is far from confirmed, and far from 95% true. It's 50% at best. Plenty of other theories work at the moment as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103002
If by strongest you mean 'still makes absolutely no sense aside from dodging red text', then yes.

[Anonymous No.]

1129 is the date of second Battler's "death".

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103026
How old was Asumu?

[Anonymous No.]

Uh, chapter 6 in its entirety felt like it existed purely to prove ShKanon. I mean, I guess it can still not be true but that's one hell of a red herring if so

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103031
No other theory work as well.
At most some other theory build onto it.
But honestly I don't see how anyone could not see ShKanon given episode 6.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103021
Well that's the mystery. Even though they were addressed to people on Rokkenjima the belief is that they were intended for the people at the return address. It's possible that Kumasawa, Nanjo and Rudolf were all in on the murders somehow and got paid for their work, but that's just pure speculation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103040
How quickly people forget the parasite and space alien red herrings in Higurashi.

[Anonymous No.]

battler wakes up, it.... it was all a dream?, he hears his mom yelling at him telling him too get his ass too school. THE END

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103039
Don't know. She was probably around the same age as Kyrie, maybe a little younger.

[Anonymous No.]

If ShKanon is true you can't call Umineko a good mystery. I'm not saying it's not still entertaining, but don't even try to call it a mystery. DID, really? The chances of this are so low that you might as well call it fantasy (brain parasites were the same way). I'm hoping Ryu07 has learned something since Higurashi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103050
They weren't red herring, they were pretty close to the truth actually.
And episode 6 has no difficulty level whatsoever, it only present answers.
Ryuukishi confirmed it in his latest interview.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103051
>dream end.

I swear to fucking god if ryukishi pulls this as the ending I will punch a fucking wall.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103050
Pretty sure those didn't take place in the 2nd to last chapter of the entire game

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103034
Didn't second Battler die in mid-summer though? (I might be misremembering.)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103067
I don't think they ever mentioned when Natsuhi killed the baby.

But I don't think it was in the autumn. I doubt Natsuhi's favorite time of the year would be around the time that she murdered a baby and a servant.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103060
There's no confirmation of Episode 7 being the last one. There's still the possibility of an Episode 8.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103053
I mean, in 1986 Kyrie is about 40. Eighteen years earlier, in 1968, she would be something over twenty and a bit younger Asumu would be in her later teens. Rudolf is about the right age for a bussiness marriage.

While she is supposed to be dead and all, I mean... it's not like we have anything aside Ryfyu aside the matter of WHO THE FUCK WAS ASUMU...?

Also, this Beato's theme is calle 'Mother'.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103060
Then you need to reread it, because space aliens were in the sixth arc, and the queen carrier theory was in the seventh.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103040

Hows about you read Ep6 before you say this?

Because it really doesn't. It's tons of circumstantial evidence, and not all of it even is in context in the Shkanontrice theory.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103086
I still like the theory of Asumu being Hachijou Touya.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103055
Well the major dirty trick was supposed to be 'how would the culprit controls the people in the mansion with the phones cut and all'. DID is not enough for that, save the case where there is an island on which is Shkanon and fifteen Anons.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103044

Name one thing that happens in Episode 6 that cannot mean anything but ShKanon.

I'll give you a hint: if you say the closed room in the end, you're wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103086
Asumu was stated by Battler in EP 1 to come from a very average family, money wise. She wasn't in a big wealthy family like Rudolf or Kyrie.

In 1986 I think Kyrie would be around her mid 40's. If she was 44 in 1986 then eighteen years ago she would have been in her mid-twenties. Asumu can be a couple years younger than that and Rudolf a couple years older.

[Anonymous No.]

>space aliens were in the sixth arc

Oh cool, I didn't know Higurashi was only 7 chapters. Oops, wait.

>and the queen carrier theory was in the seventh.

This isn't even a red herring, it's something we knew was false when it was brought up

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103115
I didn't know Episode 6 was definitely the last one! Oops, wait.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103124
By that I of course meant Episode 7.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103124
>>5103128
Stop going LALALAlALA I'M NOT LISTENING.

There is a difference between ShKanon and the whole alien parasite.
One was hinted during every games and the latest episode mostly focused on hammering it.
The other was introduced by a troll in passing.

And once again, R07 already said that episode 6 was full of ANSWERS, there is no red herrings only solutions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103148
Notice that Ryukishi didn't say: "Everyone will interpret those answers correctly."

[Anonymous No.]

So... the statement about the game's difficulty and Ryukishi's interviews are all part of the red herring in order to throw you off, ok. Got you. Sorry if I don't want to believe that, that's just going way too far

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103157
So you are the only one who got the answer while pretty much everyone else got it wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103148
Prove to me Episode 6 focused on "hammering" Shkanon.

Because to me it "hammered" that Shannon and Kanon are confronting each other, which they have done in every episode (with Beatrice as Shannon's magic stand-in), and the series' constant themes of love.

Also that Erika doesn't exist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103166
If by "pretty much everyone else" you mean "you and a bunch of other people on /jp/ plus Chronotrig" then yes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103103
How about Erika rekilling all the people who faked their deaths? How does Shkanon explain that?

How about the bomb confirmed in episode 6 and Ryu's latest interview. How does Shkanon explain that?


Oh and by the way. The hints towards Shkanon we were supposedly shown episode 6 Like Shannon and Kanon sleeping in the same bed and both of them having to leave if one leaves are never actually mentioned in episode 6...ANYWHERE. The only thing in episode 6 you have pointing to Shkanon is the love trial and the closed room and even Shkanon can't completely explain the latter.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103174
oh, and a couple of people on 2ch as well that because they're Japanese the American fanbase swears is right.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103161
Maybe that interview was forged in the first place. Chronotrig took it from 2ch.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103169
You are just fucking stupid, play episode 6 again.
Look at how Furfur and Zepar were summoned.
Look at the whole fucking LOVE DUEL that took such a big place in the episode.
Look at moe-Beatrice's flashback.
Look at the final closed room.

And fucking think for once.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103178
>both of them having to leave if one leaves are never actually mentioned in episode 6

Actually, that one is.

Specifically, Zepar and Furfur say that if Kanon and Jessica lose, Kanon will leave the island and never return, and 'even if Jessica leaves the island to search for him, she will never find him, because it is fate'.

The bed thing isn't, though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103186
That interview doesn't even say "lolshkanon." Doesn't need to be forged, people are just jumping to conclusions.

Honestly, I can't believe people are still not interpreting that final red as "Erika doesn't exist." Proof that people aren't interpreting "answers" correctly.

[Anonymous No.]

Once again going LALALALALA.
Can't fucking wait for episode 7, just to read your comments.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103178
the leaving thing has to do with losing the lover trial. One pair of lovers wins and has eternal love and the other one is separated forever.

[Anonymous No.]

Just another 3-4 months now until EP 7 comes out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103196

>You are just fucking stupid, play episode 6 again.

I'm translating it, so sup.

>Look at how Furfur and Zepar were summoned.

So? I don't see your point here.

Look at the whole fucking LOVE DUEL that took such a big place in the episode.

>Kanon confronts Shannon in the other episodes in the form of Shannon = Beatrice. It's the same thing but with the TRUE FORM laid bare. AS RYU SAID. There's zero reason why the story can't be literal for once.

>Look at the final closed room.

Sayo shot Kanon and he died in the closet.

[Anonymous No.]

Can't wait for the patch. Half of that is to read it ASAP and have my mind fill with fuck, but the other half is to hear everyone shout BEST EP EVER HOLY SHIT KANON IS AWESOME ERIKA IS AWESOME THIS SHIT IS AWESOME HOLY FUCK.

Then Comiket will come around, spoilers will fuck with our minds, we'll be convinced that it's shit. Rinse, repeat.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103217
>I'm translating it, so sup.

So stop arguing and get back to translating.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103205
u mad

The other guy, on the other hand, is remarkable at not getting upset over internet fights.

[Anonymous No.]

It seems like the whole interview: http://loda.jp/when_they_cry_3/?id=3388
It's much larger than we had translated by chrono.

[Anonymous No.]

Huh? The love duel is one of the biggest things that hammers in ShKanon... Or is that what you're trying to argue. Now I'm confused

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103205
I'm really looking forward to epiosde 7 just because of how different Ryu says it's going to be written. he said it's going to be very fractionated, which makes me think he's either diving straight into the murders this time, that we might be getting a new or more than one detective, or that it's a review episode that goes over all the past ones.

Actually at this point I'd like to have a crappy clip show over a hyped up to the max story.

[Anonymous No.]

love how /jp/ treats translators as their slaves.

stay classy, 4chan.

(fine, not gonna lie, I want the damn episode too...would be nice if it got done faster)

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103217
Furfur and Zepar were summoned from Beatrice's brooch that were broken in two.
Think a little at what it could mean.

Also for Kanon's corpse in the closet, it's fucking stupid.
A corpse doesn't lose its name as a piece, see every other murders in the game.
And Erika did look in the closet.

You are most likely a retard from Gamefaqs, go stay with the other faggots there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103256

But that's just it, the love duel DOESN'T hammer in Shkanon.

Your interpretation is completely circumstantial. It could mean anything. It's very likely to signify an actual confrontation, too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103256
What I'm arguing is that it doesn't have to.

There's no reason you can't take the story literally! As in, a real, physical fight between the two physical people Shannon and Kanon!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103272
Kinzo and his corpse would like to have a word with you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103272

Doesn't say it lost its name as a piece, it just says "Kanon isn't in the closet." Kinzo doesn't lose his name in the piece but we can say "Kinzo doesn't exist" no problem despite his corpse's location being unknown.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103272
>Furfur and Zepar were summoned from Beatrice's brooch that were broken in two.
Think a little at what it could mean.

Two loves, torn apart by conflict.

>A corpse doesn't lose its name as a piece, see every other murders in the game.

Kinzo doesn't exist anymore has been stated in red. When you die, you don't exist.

>And Erika did look in the closet.

What about it? She checked before Kanon went in, IIRC.

Because otherwise Shkanontrice couldn't work as an answer either, because she didn't see Shannon or Beatrice there either.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103286
That's because Kinzo isn't a piece to begin with, and he was never treated as such.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103294

What in the hell does being a piece have to do with not existing?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103289
A corpse can't move by itself, that's the problem.
Seriously, did you really read episode 6?
You say that Sayo could have put Kanon's body in the closet, right?
When?
Erika entered the room and sealed it once again.
During this time only Battler and Kanon entered/got out of the room, no Sayo anywhere as a piece.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103312
I think he's implying Erika is represented by Sayo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103318
Names only refer to the person themselves.
Erika is her own person with her own body.
Both stated in red.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103312

Try paying attention.

Kanon was wounded. This is shown in the Meta-scene. He went into the room under his own power. He went into the closet on his own. This is shown in the VN.

From there, he's gone.

So the whole sequence of events could easily mean Kanon died from a wound. It also is the reason why Beatrice adds 'lets leave out whether the rescue was intentional', because Kanon was just trying to get away.

The whole 'SHKANON IS FACT NO ARGUMENT AGAINST IT' is just you and the other idiots that belive in the theory circle jerking.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103325

No.

The red text says "Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people."

If Erika IS Shannon (or anyone else, really), it still works. It's the same argument as Shkanon, only less retarded.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103325
The point of that red was to state that 3 people 3 bodies entered the room. Furthermore previously it was stated in red that ONLY KANON entered. For that other red it was stated that only Kanon Erika and Battler i.e three bodies entered or exited the room.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103327
That's not the part that really requires Shkanon. The part that really requires Shkanon is the bit before then. Unless, of course, you want to argue that Kanon is also named Kinzo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103339
And a corpse doesn't lose his name.
It's just going to be a circular argument but it's fucking obvious.

So now explain to me, how the fuck is this whole thing a "key" as stated by R07 to solve Umineko?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103318

I'm still working this one out, the theory isn't fully formed yet. Here's how it's coming together.

Bernkastel claims "I proclaim Erika Furudo is the detective." in red. This is her assigning the title of "Erika Furudo" to her chosen detective. In Episode 5, the detective is Eva. However, this title can be passed game-to-game. In Episode Six, "Erika" is Sayo. We never read the game from inside her mind, therefore her objective viewpoint is not represented. Furthermore, Erika's detective privileges are revoked for the majority of Episode 6, making this even more possible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103345
>The part that really requires Shkanon is the bit before then.

Which is what?

How Kanon got out of the room? There's several theories for that (Kanon = Kinzo being one of them), and I'd still really love to know how Shannon got out of hers, too, cause there was a blue text seal on the window of the neighboring room, and no theory could use the window because of it.

But Shkanon-fags LOVE to ignore parts of arguments, so they never address this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103352

Shkanon doesn't solve Umineko either.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103338
>> The people who were in the neighboring room at the time it was sealed were Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo. And, there were exactly five people in the neighboring room. No one other than the people corresponding to those five names existed! All names refer only to the actual people!

>>Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people

It proves that the names refer only to the actual people rule is universal, try again.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103364
> Unless, of course, you want to argue that Kanon is also named Kinzo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103352
Didn't we just get out of a game that said that a corpse can be called anything else?

[Anonymous No.]

Oh and another thing about Shkanon that always bugged me, why does Erika not know what her own piece sees?

I mean, she's suppose to have an objective viewpoint, but then when Shannon and Kanon are right in front of her, she doesn't know that only one of them is there? What convoluted bullshit is that?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103371
it's highly possible Kanon possesses Kinzo's ring, giving him the title of Kinzo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103372
No, it was only stated that we can call something a corpse.
Not the same thing, and it's not like it's stated in red.
It just means that people can lie.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103368
It also proves that people = bodies, not personalities.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103403
But if someone had two names, it's still three people. And Erika is a name.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103403

Oh my god, it does say that, doesn't it?

Quick, someone go over that line in Japanese and make sure that's properly translated, because if so that one part essentially says in red people means bodies.

[Anonymous No.]

Ok, people who believe in Shkanon, riddle me this.

At the family conference after Kinzo dies, people start getting suspicious about him being alive.

Are we supposed to believe that...
Natushi
Jessica
Krauss
Genji
Kumasawa
Gohda

All know about Shkanon AND NEVER MENTION IT DURING ANY OF THE GAMES? EVEN WHEN PEOPLE START DYING?

That really strains the theory, in my mind. They hid being the same person for *3 years* or no one felt like it deserved a mention...for example...when they find that Shannon and Kanon generated seperate corpses?!

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103352
>how the fuck is this whole thing a "key" as stated by R07 to solve Umineko?

None of the answers to the final reds are the "key" he's talking about. The key he was talking about was to solve the closed rooms not the person count. And if you solve the closed rooms finding the culprit becomes much easier.

Any theory about someone not existing or being the same person would not be a key that solves all the closed rooms. If you beleive that than you need to rethink your answer.

The key is not about the whodunnit, it's about the how dunnit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103449
I think the real problem is that since there are multiple possible howdunnits for every locked room, you need to figure out whydunnit in each case to get the right solution. But apparently nobody is interested in figuring out motives.

[Anonymous No.]

Speaking about closed rooms we have:
Eva/Hideyoshi chainlock room, ep1
Chapel, ep2
Jessica's room, ep2
Servants' room, ep2
Nastushi's room, ep2
Letter in the parlor, ep2
Six linked closed rooms, ep3
Gardening shed, ep4
Hideyoshi's chainlock room, ep5
Battler's escape, ep6

What do they all have in common, I wonder?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103501
I already figured out the motive. The murderer never made a closed room. The rooms were made closed rooms after the murder took place by different people. This other group wants to lure back the culprit to the scene of the crime to get him to slip up and accidentally admit he's a murderer. The reason Battler is incompetent is that he provides alibis for the murderers that the closed room group are trying to expose.

You'll also notice that after certain people die in episode 3 and 4 closed rooms stop appearing and there are only murders without closed rooms.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103528
Actually the only closed room I find that can't follow this theory is Natsuhi's room in episode 2.

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103571

But Genji doesn't die until the bomb goes off or whatever. You were talking about Genji, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>5103528
The only closed room in Episode 4 happens at the end of the episode.