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/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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4863854 No.4863854 [Reply] [Original]

Nearly everything you need to know is told to you in episode 1. Episode 5 goes over this at length with red thrown in, since Ryuukishi thinks if you can't solve it by episode 4 you need everything spelled out for you.

>> No.4863868

It's still an unsolvable mess.

>> No.4863870

What if the opponent's goal is to draw out the story and sell more copies?!

>> No.4863885
File: 122 KB, 740x538, words_that_end_in_gry.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4863885

Pretty much this.

>> No.4863908

>>4863870
Would be interesting, and explains why Battler is kept alive, not because he's particularly special, but because his absence from the family makes him a relatable protagonist to the onlooker, since he gets a lot of things explained to him for his and our benefit.

Fashion-blind Hanyuu confirmed for mastermind.

>> No.4864322

>>4863885

He will never forget black-hat's advice.

>> No.4864337

>since Ryuukishi thinks if you can't solve it by episode 4 you need everything spelled out for you.

It's what he did with Higurashi.

>> No.4864340

>>4863885
That's not fair. In this case, it's the hat guy saying the hatless guy is being misleading and then punishing him for it, when the hatless guy never said whether he was being misleading or not. The hat guy just thinks he is.

>> No.4864355

>>4864340
It;s a stupid 'riddle' in the first place that relies on retarded wordplay and has more than one possible answer and the one who asks the question can just decide on whichever he wants..

>> No.4864356

Or maybe Ryukishi just isn't as good of a storyteller as he'd like to believe.

>> No.4864371

>>4864337
but Higurashi is insolvable in the first place. All the "clues" pretty much never existed in the first place.

>> No.4864378

>>4864355
>It;s a stupid 'riddle' in the first place that relies on retarded wordplay
Only according to you. So you are saying he is using retarded wordplay, then censuring him for it, without the confirmation of whether he was or not.

>> No.4864394

>>4864371
Sorry, but anyone who did not realize 'Hey, them twins switch weirdly' or 'Hey Takano disappears weirdly' to understand both the occasional mystery and get clued for the overall one should pay more attention.
Also, Higurashi, despite it's presentation, was never really a CHALLENGE for the reader to solve it.
It is not relying on mystery mechanics. You just enjoy the presented story.
In Umineko, the author shoehorns characters that go 'Hurd dur, distinguish scenes and events to make sense'

>> No.4864404

>>4864378
The riddle is old as fuck.
The circumstances in overall are known, so regardless s if teh SPECIFIC guy who poses it is good natured or not, it is still stupid.

>> No.4864420

>>4864371
>but Higurashi is insolvable in the first place. All the "clues" pretty much never existed in the first place.

I'm not convinced the clues necessary to solve Umineko exist either, no matter what Ry07 has said.

>> No.4864428

>>4864404
What are you talking about?

>> No.4864436

>>4864420
"It's not my fault I can't solve it, the author is incompetent. If he wasn't, I could solve it."

>> No.4864443

The Gry riddle isn't even wordplay, wordplay would require that the sentence can be interpreted in a way that makes "Language" the correct answer, but it cannot. It can't because the words "that end in gry" ruin it.

It's not even a riddle, it's just one guy being a fuckhead and thinking he's clever.

>> No.4864456

>>4864436

You'd have more of a point if Ryu07 hadn't already fucked up one "mystery" story royally.

>> No.4864465

>>4864436
The problem is, you CAN solve it.
But there are MULTIPLE answers.
For the exact same query.
And he gives no real clue as to which of them he wants.

>> No.4864496

>>4864456
Higurashi is not a "mystery"

>> No.4864575

>>4864394
>'Hey, them twins switch weirdly' or 'Hey Takano disappears weirdly'
noticing those doesn't make it solvable, you can make baseless guesses and speculation on what happened, but that's it

>> No.4864597

>>4864465
R07 even makes a point in EP5 of explaining that there are multiple answers...

>> No.4864605

>>4864496

As I recall, the most often repeated defensive argument when the Higurashi anime turned from an excellent horror story to pure shit was "IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HORROR IT'S MYSTERY BAWWW BAWW BAWW" (my memory is shaky on the specific number of "bawww"s but that was the general idea).

>> No.4864610

>>4864605

Higurashi is anything that makes it look good at the moment.

>> No.4864617

Umineko turned into nothing more than a masturbation session for R07.
Seriously, how anyone can still take it seriously I have no idea.

>> No.4864623 [DELETED] 

Uh....the tip system? What do you think he put that in Higurashi for? a lot of the clues were in there and it gave the hints for the yemainu, why the syringe was used etc. And since it's a syrineg basically only Rika (for using it) The nurse Takanon and the Doctor Irie could possibly be involved,

>> No.4864622

>>4864575
You were not SUPPOSED to. He does not even make nowhere near as much META allusions as to 'solve it, IMMA GENIUS'. However, you can guess the direction, and you are not WRONG. The plot device is still retarded.
>>4864597
Exactly the problem

>> No.4864628

>>4864617
It's become a group thing, ya know.
Each member of the circle strokes the dick of the guy next to him.

>> No.4864637

>>4864597
He makes the point that one person can't claim their answer is absolutely true until the true answer is really shown. That isn't to say that Umineko actually has multiple answers. What it has is a set of plausibilities, but one true answer.

>> No.4864643

>>4864605
>IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HORROR IT'S SLICE-OF-LIFE AND TALE ABOUT FRIENDSHIP
fixed

>> No.4864644

>>4864605
>Higurashi anime

>> No.4864647

Uh....the tip system? What do you think he put that in Higurashi for? a lot of the clues were in there and it gave the hints for the Yemainu, why the syringe was used etc. And since the clue that caused Tomitake to commit suicide was a syringe basically only Rika (for using it) The nurse Takano and the Doctor Irie could possibly be involved with that.

>> No.4864659
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4864659

Kai is called answer arcs for something

Chiru is called answer arcs for something

NOBODY EXPECTED THAT EXCEPT YOU OP

>> No.4864666

I don't even care about Umineko anymore, fucking convoluted bullshit.

>> No.4864668

>>4864659
>Chiru is called answer arcs for something
R07 said they weren't answer arcs.

>> No.4864677

>>4864647

Higurashi is unsolvable because the entire plot revolves around a magical mind controlling space parasite that doesn't exist in the real world.

It's like making a detective story and the solution is "a wizard did it".

wait why does that sound familiar

>> No.4864690

>>4864668
R07 also said you can resolve the entire game since EP3

>> No.4864694

>>4864659
Chiru are the core arcs

the first four episodes are the question arcs

"the answer" is contained within the question arcs. Ryu said in an interview if you know "the answer" you should be able to figure out what happens in the episode after Hideyoshi is murdered in episode 5 where it cuts off.

>> No.4864699

>>4864690

I'm certain it's true. Given enough leaps in logic and unfounded blind guesses, you could solve it without even reading it.

>> No.4864717

>>4864694
>implying he was murdered

>> No.4864733

>>4864694
so, he basically confirms that Hideyoshi plays a major roll?

>> No.4864735

But even Rykishi himself said in EP 5 that Higurashi was a terrible mystery.

>> No.4864746

>>4864735
is the a source?

>> No.4864753
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4864753

>>4864746

>> No.4864771

>>4864753
oh right, completely forgot about that

>> No.4864772

>>4864733
How does that follow at all?

>> No.4864782

>>4864735
The author trying to go 'Haha, what shit I wrote back then, let us cleverly reference it in the shit I am writing now' does not mean much.

>> No.4864783

Umineko turned rotten for me the moment it became a semantic battle, dueling endless unreliable narration (and not even in a brilliant way), and when the Red Text was introduced. It doesn't feel like a mystery anymore - I can't make it feel like a mystery anymore, that is; it just feels like a mess.

>> No.4864787

>>4864694
It's impressive how many people miss the "So it really was all uselles in the end" finale with Piece-Battler basically admitting he really framed her.
After that the bomb booms.

Also, I may be mistaken, but my samefagdar is tingling.

>> No.4864803

>>4864787
Holy shit, not every post in a thread is by a unique person? What the fuck, man?!

>> No.4864804

>>4864783

The unreliable narrator was already if not the killing blow, then the setup for it. How are you supposed to solve a mystery if everything you read is potentially bullshit?

>> No.4864812
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4864812

Sure is asspained mysteryfags in here.

>> No.4864823

"It's not a mystery because I can't solve it! BAAAAW"

Get over yourselves and admit you're all fucking retarded.

>> No.4864826

I'm outta here.

You guys simply don't know how to enjoy getting trolled.

>> No.4864830

>>4864826

If it was enjoyable, it wouldn't be very good trolling.

>> No.4864833

>>4864823
then post your theory

>> No.4864834

The basic rule for all detectives: "trust no one completely, anyone could lie". I don't see a problem here.

>> No.4864836

>>4864804
Moreso than the mystery, the problem is with the characters, their interactions and development. When everything you see may just be barely a hint or a distorted viewpoint, caring for characters and events becomes hard.
>>4864823
Whether people can solve it or not, it is a bad mystery and a bad story with stupid mechanics and presentation. There.
Learn to recognize the actual issues.

>> No.4864841

>>4864823
Umineko was solved ages ago, ShKanontrice, etc...
It's just that it's fucking stupid.
Also you retards are so much into you shipper bullshit that you delude yourself into thinking it's not the answer.
I will really enjoy you guys reaction in a few months, can't wait.

>> No.4864842

>>4863885
This smells of butthurt. Author obviously didn't like it he couldn't solve the riddle.

>> No.4864846

>>4864834
Characters lying?
Sure.
Entire scenes presented being FAKE/UNRELIABLE?
Nah.

>> No.4864848

>>4864782
admitting your mistakes does mean a lot

>> No.4864854

>>4864848
One could argue about sincerity or just being done for the sake of REFERENCE only instead of being an actual statement.

>> No.4864857

I find it amusing that everyone rages and hates on Umineko but they still fill up threads (or at least used to) discussing the culprit and such.

Is it a hate/love kinda thing or what?

>> No.4864864

>>4864857
Or it's just the same 2-3 faggots who fill these threads.
Seeing all the JESSICA IS SO SKETCHY, MOON or SHKANONTRICE that fill these shits, I would think this is the truth.

>> No.4864868
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4864868

>>4864857

Tsundere.

>> No.4864873

>>4864857
When Ep. 6 is translated, we'll start liking it again. For now, we're sick of waiting.

>> No.4864874

>>4864857
Some people find faults but still like the story, so they discuss it.
Others liked it at first and disliked it later.
Then, you have the ones doing discussions and being overly defensive.
It's not a single mass of posters that both hates it to death and discusses actual content to death.

>> No.4864885

>>4864857
Ever think that they might be different people? I generally hide Umineko theory threads on sight.

>> No.4864886

>>4864854
or maybe both?

>> No.4864892

>>4864846
It just adds more possibilities, nothing more.

>> No.4864897

>>4863885
>Commiting hostile actions and then acting like a wiseguy when you didn't figure out something is not cleverness.

>> No.4864902

>>4864892
It also ruins presentation.
Cause whether he is lying or not, his actions and words are DEFINITE.
When everything is unreliable, it just becomes stupid guesses.

>> No.4864931

>>4864857
Who's everyone? Some professional haters who think that it's their obligation to post in every Umineko thread about how they hate it?

>> No.4864934

>>4864931
I'm a PRO-HATER, nigga.

>> No.4864937

>>4864787
Haha, no. It's impressive people actually think that's him admitting he framed her, still, after all that happened afterwards.

Battler goes "it's useless" when he believes the reasoning is broken, and there is another way out. See: "it's useless" in a very similar situation, where Eva is saying only Natsuhi could be the culprit and she pushed Kinzo out the window. Also "it's useless" in the same episode where Erika is trying to corner Natsuhi in Kinzo's room.

He was probably about to say that there's no proof the cousins were dead when he thought they were / or reveal that he pretended that they were dead, but that it's gone on too long.

What part of Battler being innocent don't you understand? Come the fuck on.

>> No.4864939

I guess I'm the only one who really likes the red/blue truths, Knox commandments, and the fact that everyone you trust can betray you

>> No.4864942

>>4864939
Only one?
Improbable.
If you find NO FAULT with the way they are implemented?
Crowd gets a bit thinner.

>> No.4864948

>>4864942
I agree with him, and I find no fault. I think he just overestimates his fans, because whatever he does they just accuse him of word play bullshit. It's an extension of something done in And Then There Were None. I wonder how many of the readers thought there was someone else on the island?

>> No.4864951

>>4864939
No, but unlike haters\trolls we don't feel burning urge to express our feelings.

>> No.4864954

>>4864939
I personally like the idea.
But I think it's badly used.
Especially the "semantic" battles, frankly they have greatly disappointed me.

>> No.4864960

>>4864954
The people in the VN who play semantics are always wrong and portrayed as retarded.

See: Meta-Battler in ep4 tea party, Erika in episode 5 and 6.

>> No.4864961

>>4864937
Right, I agree that Piece Battler was about to make a big reveal and that's why the witches demand that they have the trial then.

>> No.4864965
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4864965

>>4864787
>Suggesting the detective is the culprit.

>> No.4864975

>>4864961
Depends what you mean by the big reveal. He was probably forced by Rudolf and Kyrie to play along with this fake death crap so Natsuhi would admit Kinzo is already dead, but it was clear that she wasn't going to, and he was probably very pissed with how she was being treated.

>> No.4864980

>>4864902

But, IIRC, not everything is unreliable. There is the red text, everything Battler sees, and there is also the "Beatrice made this story for you to win" scene, that hints that even if things aren't 100% reliable, they still give you hints.

>> No.4864986

>>4864960
All the battles have been filled with semantic so far.

My problem, and I admit I must be the one at fault for expecting more, is that I expected something more "intelligent" out of Umineko.
The debates that are one of the highlight are only highlighted by how stupid they are.

You have the supposed epic battles with some epic BGM playing in the background and lots of nifty sound effects, yet the debates themselves really fail to deliver.

Also one of my other problem is the fact that everyone on the island feel retarded.
In these sort of stories, when they are well written, the culprit really have to work hard and act smartly to do his deeds.
In Umineko everyone just act retarded so the culprit(s) can pick them up easily.

>> No.4864995
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4864995

Umineko = Trolls trolling trolls that troll other trolls

>> No.4865015

>>4864975
>He was probably forced by Rudolf and Kyrie to play along with this fake death crap
Problem is EVERY fucking characters, except Natsuhi and maybe except the victims, lies. All the relatives, servants and Battler claim to have seen them dead when they weren't dead, and an autopsy wouldn't be mistaken for any bodies.

>> No.4865017

>>4864841
I don't really care about the Shkanontrice thing. What I do care about is that it only solves lesser issues. The original mystery can't be solved on information like it being true alone.

>>4864939
The individual concepts are decent, but their implementations leave much to be desired. However, I would also like to say that continuously piling on rule sets and specific limitations in this incremental fashion are depreciating the value of the work. I especially think any formal mystery rules have ceased to have any meaning in the Umineko universe just because of the supernatural elements superceding the natural elements.

Umineko is building an unattractive brick wall, whereas a good mystery keeps the question alluring and visible.

That's why I can't enjoy it anymore. It's just a clusterfuck of nonsense at this point.

>> No.4865033
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4865033

At what point did everyone stop having fun with Umineko and become super serious? Enjoying the pure ridiculousness of the story has always been a constant source of entertainment for me.

>> No.4865043

>>4865017
>supernatural elements superceding the natural elements
What? Supernatural elements are just fantasy representation of the real world events and logic concepts. I guess you lack imagination.

>> No.4865044

>>4865017

Supernatural elements? Are you talking about the LOL MAGIC SWORDS scenes or about the postmodern metafictional magical tea party shit?

>> No.4865053

>>4865033
Agreed.

I lost all interest in 'solving it' when the bunny snipers showed up and there were more magical entities than actual people on the island.

>> No.4865056

>>4865033
People are idiots.

>> No.4865059

I liked it better when it was simply Battler and Beatrice arguing each of the murders. Now its just one big mess. When the truth comes out, it's probably going to be a huge disappointment.

>> No.4865062
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>> No.4865070
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>> No.4865065
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>> No.4865074

Another image pattern to filter.

>> No.4865076

>>4865033
I tried to take it seriously untill the power level battle with Krauss and the Goat in Ep4. Now it's just fun and entertainment for me.

>> No.4865084 [DELETED] 
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>> No.4865089 [DELETED] 
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>> No.4865080

>>4865059

But I thought that "now" it is still the same, but instead of Battler vs. Beatrice is Erika vs. Battler.

>> No.4865087

Until episode 6 Shkanon wasn't even that big. It was at best a 50/50 bet, that seemed more like a red herring than anything else. Even now, using Shkanon to explain that closed room is retarded, as you could use Kanontrice to get the same results.

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>> No.4865099

>>4865080
>Erika vs. Battler.
well...about that

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>> No.4865108
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>> No.4865122

>>4865076
The point of that scene is to show the absurdness of Kyrie and other's tale, obviously.

>> No.4865129
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>> No.4865131 [DELETED] 
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[ERROR]

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>> No.4865132

>>4865076

The goat-kun power level scene showed me the truth. The magic scenes are just Ryukishi making fun of random things, while giving some small hints of the answer.

And then the goat subway was the land of gold. And then the bunnies where Winchesters. And then Gaap was a rose. And Then I Knew....

>> No.4865148
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>> No.4865156

>>4865132
True. It showed me that more or less, any scene that does not dirrectly involve Battler where he can see what's going on is 9/10 useless information.

>> No.4865159

>>4865132
then what about gaap vs george? george is fighting a rose?
or is it just a hint
george = yakuza member?

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>> No.4865164

>>4865122
It still ruins the narrative and is stupid.
There are many scenes that help you picl up information while being outrageous, but they did not just fill your head with WUT

>> No.4865171

>>4865159

Ryukishi was making fun of Ryukishi's fight scenes, and he also reminded us that Eva is a ninja and that Hideyoshi is a samurai.

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>> No.4865175

How can Umineko even be solved without disappointment now?

It will either be sloppily written romance ending in "hurr durr but you are the murderer, and then Battler was a ronery person," or it will be hamhanded sadness.

Goddamnit, Ryukishi.

>> No.4865178

>>4865171
>Ryukishi was making fun of Ryukishi
And then Xzibit was the culprit.

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>> No.4865187

>>4865178
Yo man, we put META IN YOUR META

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>> No.4865189

>>4865159
George is far too socially awkward to be a yakuza member.

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>> No.4865203

>>4865187
We put meta in your meta so you can deny witches while you cry.

Wait, shit.

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>> No.4865218

>>4865175

You forgot the "the culprit and Battler have a cool battle with cleavers and bats" ending.

>> No.4865228

>>4865189
True, but his waifu already has tattoos.

>> No.4865229

>>4865218
Nah, that won't happen. K1 just rapes the shit out of Battler in any way possible, Battler can't get his own badass fight.

>> No.4865237

>>4865229
Clumsily lunging two objects constantly is not a badass fight, and not even being the lead is worse.

>> No.4865238

>>4865218
You mean hatstand and cape?

Hatstand (medium range) - Attack +3
Cape - Defense +20

>> No.4865252

>>4865238
Wasn't a drawfag supposed to draw a loli personification of the cape and a bro personification of the hatstand ages ago?

Cape-chan was tsundere and had twintails.

>> No.4865280
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4865280

>>4865229
>Battler can't get his own badass fight

Hasn't he already had like six of those?

>> No.4865304

>>4865280
Magic fights aren't badass.

>> No.4865316

>>4865280

Those weren't badass fights, they were more like middle-school debates.

>>
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