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4686803 No.4686803 [Reply] [Original]

I have just realized that I can't think of a single TYPE-MOON character that isn't from the aristocracy or proletariat.

Was Nasu raised in Glorious Russian Mother Land or does he find the bourgeoisie distasteful for some reason?

>> No.4686817

Nasu was raised by wild animals in the Siberian tundra before swimming to Japan.

>> No.4686830
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4686830

...

>> No.4686831

Nasu was raised in Disney before swimming to Japan.

>> No.4686851

I suggest you think harder.

>> No.4686853

>>4686803

Technically Shiki wasn't raised by aristocrats since he was disowned.

Also I think your forgetting Satsuki.

>> No.4686859

Satsuki is at best middle-class.

>> No.4688400

Arihiko

>> No.4688411

Ciel was the daughter of a baker, and she used to live on a rural village on France

>> No.4688412

You're forgetting Kohaku. She's a simple meido, yet goddamn is she a pain in the ass.

>> No.4688453
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4688453

>> No.4688496

And who is Type-Moon's richest character?. I think it would be either Arcueid or Gilgamesh

>> No.4688507

>>4688496
Gilgamesh owns Arcueid.

>> No.4688515

>>4688496

Gilgamesh is the richest person by far.

Excluding the fact that he has billions of PRICELESS ARTIFACTS OF IMMENSE POWER, even.

>> No.4688532

>>4688507
Gilgamesh doesn't know about Arcueid, he doesn't know she exists. Because if he were to know about her existence he will forget about Saber for a while and chase after her instead

>> No.4688549

>>4688532

Arcueid's figure isn't like Saber's.

It's implied in Fate/Zero that Gil's lust for Saber is much due to her reminding him of Enkidu, his bromosexual life partner.

>“It was indeed because she took upon her shoulders the hope of every man of the time that she’s able to display such might – it’s painful precisely because it is so blindingly brilliant. Who could have thought that the person carrying such a heavy weight is only a little girl who liked to dream?”
[...]
>“You fool who stretch your hand towards realms not of men… There is only one person in heaven or earth who’s worthy of appreciating your destruction, and that is none other than I, Gilgamesh.


Apparently humans trying to be better than human is what turns him on like a hose.

>> No.4688569

>>4688549
Still wishing for a Gilgamesh x Saber end. Course, it might end up like a MY LAST BARONESS type of relationship.

>> No.4688579

>>4688569

Fate/Unlimited Codes gives us Gilgamesh corrupting her into Black Saber, and then probably dominating her for the rest of however long.

>> No.4688616

>I have just realized that I can't think of a single TYPE-MOON character that isn't from the aristocracy or proletariat.
>post a picture from Turkeyhandle
>other posters list every character in Turkeyhandle other than Arcueid, Akiha and Roa as counterexamples

Pretty weak, bro.

>> No.4688662
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4688662

>>4688616
Enjou Tomoe.

>> No.4688690

Enjou is a fag, he sleeps in the same room as Ryougi, at one point they are even together in bed and he doesn't try anything...

>> No.4688719

>>4688690
He is a good boy

>> No.4689167

>>4688616
>I have just realized that I can't think of a single TYPE-MOON character that isn't from the aristocracy or proletariat.
>post a picture from Turkeyhandle
>other posters list every character in Turkeyhandle other than Arcueid, Akiha and Roa as counterexamples

And none of those are correct.

And who's Satsuki?

>> No.4689175

>aristocracy or proletariat.
wait, there is more?

>> No.4689194

>>4688690
He saw her kick the ass of 3 guys and make them puke their guts effortlessly,
And she is a knife maniac.
Self-preservation.

>> No.4689218

>>4689194
Ah, yeah, female batshit insane godhax Shiki, does she even have a love interest?

>> No.4689229
File: 313 KB, 704x480, [gg-TakaJun]_Kara_no_Kyoukai_-_The_Garden_of_Sinners_-_05_[999900E4].mkv_snapshot_00.22.38_[2010.03.21_16.24.35].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4689229

>>4688690

I think you missed the point of the scene

>> No.4689235

>>4689229
I'D DO ANYTHINNNNNNNNNNNG FOR LOVE...
BUT I WON'T DO THAT!

>> No.4689243
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4689243

>>4689235

>> No.4689253

>>4689243
Morrigan disapproves -20?

>> No.4689254

>>4689167
But Arcueid and Akiha are royalty and aristocracy, respectively

>> No.4689256

>>4689229
If you love someone, wouldn't you try to sex her up anytime you can ?

>> No.4689260

>>4689256
Without her consent?No.

>> No.4689272

>>4689243
I don't get it. Why is she mad?

>> No.4689278

>>4689260
Well you can still try to go down on her, and see if it works out or not. Enjou died without even trying to kiss her.

>> No.4689280

>>4689272
Just...disappointed.

>> No.4689287

Uhh there's plenty of TM characters that you could describe as pure blue blooded nobility.

>> No.4689288

>>4689254
I meant the ones that weren't.

>> No.4689292

>>4689272
I think she wanted Totally not Shiki to fuck her, or something.

>> No.4689296

>>4689272
I don't know. I mean, he obeyed her...maybe he had some gas? Or maybe he was constantly switching which side he was lying on and not letting her sleep. The only other thing I can think of is that he was pushing her off the bed, but the image doesn't show that, so...

>> No.4689303

>>4689296
Oh, hey there, Shirou.

>> No.4689314
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4689314

>>4689303

>> No.4689316

>>4688549
The funny thing about Enkidu is that the Nasuverse version of him is a shouta, according to Fate/strange fake, where he is summoned as Rider. (That's the only reason Gil even remained in that war, in fact, because the war itself was a pale imitation of the true Grail Wars.)

>> No.4689323

>>4689316
Fate/Strange Fake.
It's Fate/Stay Night, IN AMERICA.

>> No.4689330

>>4689323
And it has grown-up Waver.

>> No.4689344
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4689344

>>4689272
She secretly wanted him to fuck her hard while she pretended to sleep. But since he is a pussy, she was disappointed.

If it were me, I would have destroyed her ass, and she would have loved every second of it.

>> No.4689363

>>4689344
Ryougi Shiki is way more powerful than Tohno Shiki. And perhaps even Nanaya Shiki.

>> No.4689368

>>4689363
Fuck off this isn't a powerlevel thread.

>> No.4689370
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4689370

>>4689363

>> No.4689411
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4689411

>>4689363
Satsujinki is more powerful than Ryougi

>> No.4689426

>>4689411
>>4689363

oh man here we go again

>> No.4689434

>>4689411
>>4689363
STOP IT

STOP IT RIGHT NOW

>> No.4689443

>>4689411
I want Satsujinki to accidentally become a Dead Apostle.

>> No.4689444

Satsujinki and Ryougi's kid would kick both their asses.

>> No.4689458
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4689458

These two aren't royalty, demi-gods or from a proper blood line . . .

>> No.4689469
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4689469

Neither is she. In fact, she's one hell of an outcast. She gets raped by one of the douche gos, Athena curses her because of it into an ugly monster . . .

>> No.4689473

What about Arihiko and Shirou?

>> No.4689512
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4689512

One thing that amused me about the Servants in FSN is that you've got Demi-Gods, princess witches, and Kings left and right, and then there's poor Archer . . .

Poor Archer who came from no noble family, no god blood running in his veins, yet he doesn't have the sense of pride that the others do. So that allows him to cheat like a mother fucker and proves that Brain wins over Brawn almost every time.

>> No.4689524

>>4689512
uh..what? that's more like underhandedness wins over virtue, honor and nobility every time.

>> No.4689555

>>4689512
More like HURR SWORDSPAM wins over actual heroism every time

>> No.4689573
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4689573

>>4688579
The Fate/Unlimited Codes endings are cool. I like Lancer's ending where he wins the grail war, then kills Kirei and Gilgamesh, and fades away grinning like an idiot.

>> No.4689585

>>4689473
Shirou's parents are DEAAAAAAAD and his adoptive father's a counterrevolutionary reactionary. So yeah, actually he might count, if he wasn't DEAD.
His guardian is a Yakuza heiress and I haven't read Das Kapital thoroughly enough to know if that counts as bourgeosie or not.

And I don't know what Arihiko's family actually does.

>> No.4689588

>>4689573
Fuck yeah Lancer

>> No.4689589

>>4689573
Archer's ending was better.

Back to back Adult Rin and Achaa.

>> No.4689632
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4689632

>>4689589
Most of them were pretty cool, really.

>> No.4689641

Seeing these Fate/UC screens make me think of the awesome song played in the credis as well as the main menu.

>> No.4689643
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>> No.4689648
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4689648

>> No.4689656

>>4689641
Man, I don't remember any songs from it except for the castle stage music and the awesome Emiya remix that plays whenever you finish casting UBW.

>> No.4689666

>>4689656
> He doesn't remember "Code" by Tainaka Sachi
FUCK YOU

>> No.4689675

>>4689643
...This one makes no sense. How is Saber Alter separate from regular Saber?

>> No.4689689

>>4689675
Tatari

>> No.4689693

>>4689666
Is that from the opening movie or something?

>> No.4689699

>>4689693
Don't tell me you only played the psp version ?

>> No.4689703

>>4689675
In F/UC Saber was more like a mental challenge to Alter Saber,

>> No.4689709

>>4689699
Yeah. Don't own a PS2.

>> No.4689711

>>4689703
I see.

>> No.4689714

Leysritt end is best end. Happy ending for everyone especially Illya.

>> No.4689725

Cuhlainn/Lancer isn't nobility--everything he got he earned or stole--and it was more stealing than earning.

Hassan/Assassin isn't nobility.

Koujirou/Assassin isn't blue blood in the slightest. He started out as a farmer.

Medusa's divine, so she doesn't count.

Ishida was a freak accident like Shirou, thus no nobility.

Shiki Nanaya, Inui, Yumizuka, Ciel, & co definitely don't count as nobles. Used by noble hands in Ciel's and Shiki's case, but not richbloods themselves.

Shiki can also fuck Ryougi. Tohno Gland.

And finally, Makoto can impregnate any Nasu-girl. Discuss.

>> No.4689727

>>4689709
That explains why never heard of Code then. It has been removed from the psp version for some reasons I am not aware of.

Behold what you missed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIEnI5WTpzY

>> No.4689732

>>4689725
>And finally, Makoto can impregnate any Nasu-girl. Discuss.
Not even remotely enough for Sakura

>> No.4689736

>Shiki can also fuck Ryougi. Tohno Gland.
I agree.

>> No.4689743

>>4689736
The Kokutou Gland can counter the Tohno Gland. Discuss

>> No.4689751

>>4689732
>Call Dad
>Dad gets her baby maker working again
>Dad 'samples' the results of his work
>Makoto has a new waifu and a sister
>Matou line has a new heir who gives birth to another heir five years later
>Shirou cries NTR ragetears

Ito is the number one Harem threat now and forevermore.

>> No.4689753

>>4689743
Hell no, as we already discussed it above in this thread, Kokuto is a pussy.

>> No.4689756

>>4689751
The family trees of the School Days universe are such a literal clusterfuck.

>> No.4689763

>>4689756
It's like I'm looking at the Greek Myth family tree.

>> No.4689766

>>4689725
>Shiki can also fuck Ryougi. Tohno Gland
If the Tohno Gland is so effective, then why did Ryougi killed Tohno and cut him into tiny pieces in her MBAA ending?

>> No.4689776

>>4689766
Really?

>> No.4689785

>>4689766
I don't remember this at all. Brb, plugging my ps2.

>> No.4689794

Archetype Earth: Because, I am the same. Gazing at the severed limbs scattered about there, I cannot help but make a terrible smile. Thus, I will answer your provocation.
Ryougi Shiki: Heh, so you want revenge for that weirdo huh? All of this is going to be a dream anyway and everything will be back just the way it was when we wake up, but my, aren't you the faithful one.

Ryougi cut Tohno into tiny pieces and Arcueid got pissed, so yeah, it seems like the Tohno Gland doesn't work with Ryougi

>> No.4689826
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4689826

>>4689794
Mai waifu really can do anything.

>> No.4689914

>>4689794
> Archetype Earth
> Archetype
And now I realize what the "Type" in "Type-Moon", "Type-Venus", "Type-Jupiter", etc., stands for.

>> No.4689917

>>4689794
Okay I just watched the ending again and you're right. I didn't see it that way the first time. I think the circumstances were unfavorable to Tohno, otherwise Ryougi would have been craving for his cock.

>> No.4689940

>>4689914
Types are the strongest beings of a planet or of moon. Only earth couldn't create TYPE-EARTH, so Gaia made TYPE-MOON protect the earth if his children could live here too in exchange.

>> No.4689952

>>4689940
your somewhat off..

>> No.4689979

>>4689940
Yeah, Arcueid is the closest thing to a Type the planet Earth will ever have

>> No.4689983

>>4689952
Then correct me, please. I don't mind, and I like to learn new things about the nasuverse everyday.

>> No.4689992

right, because japan is full of "bourgeois"

>> No.4690012

>>4689952
The planet attempted to imitate the moon and create a king on earth.
However, no matter how hard it tried... a king would not be born.

Upon hearing the worries of the planet, the king of the moon came.
"Since you are defenseless and unable to move, I shall protect you."
With his kind, red eyes, the king of the moon made his promise.
The planet gladly accepted, and became a child of the moon.

And so, the people of the moon came down to live.

>> No.4690017

Isn't Miyako's family a pretty normal one.

>> No.4690040

>>4689983
Simply put, Crimson Moon was the one who offered to provide Gaia with guardians, which were his "children" aka the Shinso. His plan however was to ultimately take earth as his kingdom (with the moon being dead and all), which was why he offered aid in the first place. He was killed by Zelratch somewhere along the line.
The Shinso carry the same flaws as Crimson Moon did in their bloodlust ect ect ect and so were not perfect/ultimate beings nor really guardians of Gaia which is what a type is supposed to be.

Arc and Altrouge are his two known "descendants", meaning they have the strongest connection to him/purest blood/whatever.

>> No.4690069

>>4689940

Actually there's a candidate for the Type-Earth title, and that's the "Crimson Moon", who's a being generated from the Type-Moon and the basis for the Shinso (True Ancestor). At the moment only Arcueid Brunestud and Altrouge Brunestud can earn the title of "Brunestud of Crimson Moon" and than became the Type-Earth. In fact in Melty Blood Actress Again there's the Archetype-Earth (who's an 'incomplete' Type) and she's Arcueid (princess version. Just to say more, the princess version of Arcueid refers to herself as just "Brunestud" in Kagetsu Tohya)

>> No.4690087

>>4690040
Even though Altrouge has TA blood, she falls under the DAA category, she can't use Marble Phantasm either, so Altrouge can't be considered a pure TA

>> No.4690089

>>4690069
I know, I just did not mention that because Archtype-Earth is another subject.
Also i always thought the princess Arc in KT was Crimson Moon.

>> No.4690094

>>4690087
But I thought having the name "Brunestud" meant that one COULD use Marble Phantasm.

>> No.4690096

>>4690087
DAAs were once TA so it doesn't really change anything about what I said.

>> No.4690102

>>4690094
One that could summon the millennium castle brunestud.

>> No.4690107

>>4690096
> DAAs were once TA
I thought Altrouge was the only DAA who used to be a True Ancestor. All the rest are just really strong Dead Apostles, or are people like Zelretch, who aren't exactly Dead Apostles but are still grouped with them.

...Or is my mind playing tricks on me and Zelretch isn't one of the 27 DAAs?

>> No.4690111

>>4690102
Which is only done via Marble Phantasm.

Also, one of the DAAs, Sumire, can use Marble Phantasm, though she was originally a water elemental or something.

>> No.4690113

>>4690107
Theres TA, DA, DAA.

>> No.4690118

>>4690069
Actually Archetype Earth in MBAA is the real Arcueid not the Crimson Moon persona inside her:

The Princess of the True Ancestors. Arcueid's true form.
That which shows her side as the touch of the planet as the True Ancestor of highest grade of purity.
Not an alter ego of Arcueid, but one and the same as the normal her.

The fight between Arcueid and Ryougi is also a fight between Gaia and Alaya. That's why Gaia gave Arcueid her true form and power, Ryougi is probably enhanced by Alaya as well

>> No.4690119

Makoto is a fag.

Most characters in the TM universe are non-aristocracy, or are from ostensibly noble lines, but are just poor.

>> No.4690123

>>4690111
Yeah but the title is given to those who manifest the castle, not those who can use MP.

>> No.4690128

>>4690107
DAAs include anything really powerful that drinks blood. It doesn't exclusively refer to Dead Apostles for some reason. See Primate Murder, ORT, Forest of Einnashe, etc.

Zelretch is a DAA, but he's on humanity's side.

I think Altrouge is referred to be half-TA and half-DA, which is not unprecedented as Enhance is part human and part DA (not sure about the ratio, probably 50/50)

>> No.4690135

>>4690123
You have to use MP to manifest the castle though.

>> No.4690145

>>4690107
It's a title given by the church to things that possess "vampire" like abilities/desires. It is a very generalized title really and the list of 27 holds the names of the strongest among them, that does not outright make them enemies of humanity however.

>> No.4690146

>>4690118
Why would Alaya and Gaia fight in the first place? Does Gaia not come from the Origin as well?

>>4690123
But having the title of Brunestud implies that Altrouge can summon the millennium castle, and since that can only be done using Marble Phantasm that means she must possess it.

>> No.4690150

>>4690135
Yes, what's your point?

>> No.4690155

>>4690150
I thought you, or somebody, was arguing that Altrouge can't use MP.

>> No.4690171

>>4690145
>>4690107

The list of 27 DAAs is created and maintained by the DAAs not the church, Originally it listed the first DAs who had their blood sucked by TAs. But as time passed as the church sealed/annihilated them they found replacements. Altrouge supposedly is one of the few who is able to appoint them aside from defeating the previous number holder or being an heir to one.

>> No.4690178

>>4690171
Well huh... I didn't know that.

>> No.4690182

>>4690155
No, I was the one on the other end of that reply saying that she was a "descendant" of Crimson Moon.

>> No.4690185

>>4690146
Gaia is the collective will of all life to survive. Alaya is the collective will of humanity to survive. They're not connected to the Akashic Record. It's just the life force of the world at work.

>> No.4690186

>>4690146
>Why would Alaya and Gaia fight in the first place? Does Gaia not come from the Origin as well?

Alaya realized that even thought they are working together now (Gaia and Alaya), their ways are going to cross one day, that's why they decided to end it now. Just like AE said:

Archetype Earth: So it seems. The providence of the Air (Sky) and the providence of the Star (planet) are separate things, ours paths ones that will diverge one day and move apart.
Archetype Earth: And yet It cannot suffer even that? Apparently, It has deemed that if they are fated to conflict, it is all the same to conclude things here.

>> No.4690203

>>4690186
That is so typical of humans.

>> No.4690214

>>4690146
>But having the title of Brunestud implies that Altrouge can summon the millennium castle, and since that can only be done using Marble Phantasm that means she must possess it.

If you go by that side game in Hollow Ataxia it says that Reality Marbles can be inherited, and the castle is said to be a Reality Marble in Plus Period.

>> No.4690225

>>4690135
In fuyuki says that the only ones who can manifest the Millenium Castle on the the long story of the True Ancestors are Arcueid and Crimson Moon, Altrouge wasn't mentioned anywhere. I am sure her tittle of Brunestud is self-impossed

>> No.4690236

>>4690171
No the list of the Dead Apostle Ancestors is made by the Church for the strongest of the Dead Apostles. Kinda like a Black List.

>> No.4690246

>>4690225
Doesn't it say in plus period that she CAN summon the castle tho..

>> No.4690262

>>4690236
It is USED and referenced by the church yes, but it is not made by them, they do not control who is listed and who is not.
The list does contain among the strongest DAs due to natural selection however, since one way to get added to the list is to simply kill someone on it. Naturally you would have to possess some degree of "vampiric" tendencies.

>> No.4690275

Wait, is there a difference between Alaya and Alayashiki?

>> No.4690295 [DELETED] 

>>4690246
Really? Can you show me the text? There is a small profile for her in KT, and it explicitly states that she doesn't have any special abilities aside of a >>4690246
Really? Can you show me the text? There is a small profile for her in KT, and it explicitly states that she doesn't have any special abilities aside of a second form

>> No.4690307

>>4689725
>Cuhlainn/Lancer isn't nobility--everything he got he earned or stole--and it was more stealing than earning.
Proletariat.

>Hassan/Assassin isn't nobility.
Proletariat.

>Koujirou/Assassin isn't blue blood in the slightest. He started out as a farmer.
Proletariat very.

>Medusa's divine, so she doesn't count.
Aristocracy.

>Ishida was a freak accident like Shirou, thus no nobility.
If you're talking about who I think you're talking about, Proletariat.

>Shiki Nanaya, Inui, Yumizuka, Ciel, & co definitely don't count as nobles. Used by noble hands in Ciel's and Shiki's case, but not richbloods themselves.
Proletariat.

>Shiki can also fuck Ryougi. Tohno Gland.
No.

>And finally, Makoto can impregnate any Nasu-girl. Discuss.
I don't think so, Tim.

>> No.4690314

>>4690307
Your classifications would make Engels spin on his grave.

>> No.4690329

>>4690307
If you're using the Marxist meanings, then the main reason nobody is really bourgeoisie is because Nasu doesn't focus on characters who make their living via the economy. If you're using the contemporary meaning (i.e. the middle and upper classes), then the majority of characters who aren't of noble descent in the Nasuverse are bourgeoisie.

>> No.4690330

>>4690275
Same thing.

>> No.4690388

>>4690119
Luvia, Acueid, Illya, Akiha. Three of those are from noble families and one is royalty

>> No.4692540

>>4689979

Followed by Primate Murder, currently the closest until Arcueid awakens further.

>>4690107

She was never a True Ancestor. She's half TA half DA.

>>4690171
>>4690262

It's variable. The DAA list is constructed of the most powerful DAs who are participating in the "territory conquering game" from the DAAs perspective, which will include people unrelated to this game who are allied with those in it. Nrvnqsr was attached to Ortenrosse for example and Wallachia to Altrouge. Yet the Church added Roa as unnumbered because they were butthurt about him, and he's someone the DAAs REALLY didn't want paired with them because they were also so butthurt about him, and Roa really didn't give a shit about the DAA wars, so the Church has some say in the positioning.

>> No.4692606

>>4692540
>She was never a True Ancestor. She's half TA half DA.
What? She was half-bitten or what?

>> No.4692650

>>4692606
Half Human/Half True Ancestor -> True Ancestor blood mixing with human blood produces a dead apostle -> Being half true ancestor means that's a shit load of true ancestor blood to mix with human blood -> Half True Ancestor/Half Dead Apostle

>> No.4692721

They are not aristocratic because they want to be, they just happened to born into an aristocratic family.
Also, there is a reason why they're the aristocracy.

>> No.4692739

So, wait, what is Satsuki up to in Actress Again?

>> No.4692827

>>4692739
Nobody knows.

>> No.4692867

>>4692827
Being a dead apostle, having a reality marble when she really shouldn't, and still living in a cardboard box with Sion is my bet.

>> No.4692895

>>4690012
If Gilgamesh had used the elexir he would have became Type-Earth, discuss.

>> No.4692979

>>4692895
Gilgamesh is not connected to the planet at all. He is not a pure elemental like Arcueid, Gaia will never accept a human as its guardian

>> No.4693532

>>4692979
But does it not accept human counter guardians as it's guardians? Considering how Gaia supports them?

>> No.4693614

>>4693532
Unrelated to Gaia.

>> No.4694171

>>4692606

Sexual relationship between DA and TA.

>>4692650

What the fuck are you thinking you fucking moron

>> No.4695085
File: 111 KB, 465x650, lancer3..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4695085

>>4689725
Lancer's half god.

That's pretty noble to me.

>> No.4695105

>>4695085
He's IRISH

Irish people are worse than dirt

>> No.4695126
File: 197 KB, 488x600, rinarcherbattleworn.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4695126

>>4689589
Now, the question is, were Rin and Archer fucking in his end?

I'd like to think yes.

>> No.4695130

>>4695105
the correct term is - bog people.

>> No.4695139
File: 159 KB, 640x480, lancercasual.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4695139

>>4695105
So, what's wrong with being Irish?

Irish people are cool, they drink, they party and they fight. That's pretty bad assed to me.

>> No.4695143

>>4695139
The are stupid, obnoixous drunks that can't be trusted to run thier own country

Plus they drop bombs everywhere

>> No.4695191
File: 151 KB, 450x613, lancerteaarcher.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4695191

>>4695143
So are the US.

Lancer's awesome, and you know it.

>> No.4695194

>>4695191
The Irish are also Catholics.

>>
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