why do you read shitty VNs but not real books that you can actually call literature?

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Anonymous Tue May 12 21:58:05 2009 No.2581231 [Reply] [Original]

why do you read shitty VNs but not real books that you can actually call literature?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:58:05 2009 No.2581234 because I haven't read porn that can make me cry

>>	Kurai !MEIDOh12Vo Tue May 12 21:58:05 2009 No.2581236 I do.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:59:05 2009 No.2581239 Not enough drawings

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 21:59:05 2009 No.2581242 >>2581231 I only read scientific books.

>>	Rome !!EPVwTIz4j/f Tue May 12 22:01:05 2009 No.2581253 >>2581231 I do. However, most of those are too outdated to be likable, expect for a few everlasting classics.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:01:05 2009 No.2581254 Because I can

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:02:05 2009 No.2581263 Theres no cute voices and pictures in books. Theres also no BGM and you can't really fap to them either.

>>	Harblong Cassidy !KzfKdB2Xmc Tue May 12 22:03:05 2009 No.2581269 File: 79 KB, 476x475, 6a00c2252802de604a00e3989db9a50005-500pi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] This thread is now going places

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:04:05 2009 No.2581275 Why do you assume that reading visual novels means you don't also read real books?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:04:05 2009 No.2581280 The VN's i've played had far better stories and development and purpose than the supposed literature like Huxley that i've read.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:06:05 2009 No.2581287 Because the background/character images, voice and BGM is at least half the enjoyment value of VNs. I used to read books, but I got used to VNs too much and books became a bit plain and boring compared to them.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:06:05 2009 No.2581289 >>2581275 Because he's, you know, a troll.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:09:05 2009 No.2581314 Visual novels are written nothing like actual books. Visual novels don't even feel like novels. They're like a slide show of anime with a shit load of text.

Anonymous Tue May 12 22:10:05 2009 No.2581317

Also, VNs can convey stronger emotions. Some scenes can make you baaw just by seeing the background image and hearing the music, before any words were shown. And it's a lot easier to become emotionally attached to characters and thus enjoy the story more if they are staring to your soul with those eyes as you're reading the text.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:11:05 2009 No.2581326 >>2581269 Gah. Fuck. Fucking nostalgia.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:13:05 2009 No.2581340 Why do you make retarded assumptions?

>>	FA☆BU☆LO☆U☆S !U5yUZtVwaY Tue May 12 22:15:05 2009 No.2581353 I used to read books a lot when I was a little kid. I guess I just outgrew them.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:15:05 2009 No.2581359 File: 147 KB, 800x600, 1235072815064.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Different target audiences.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:17:05 2009 No.2581365 >>2581359 Fuck yes.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:18:05 2009 No.2581371 Why can't we do both? I mean each one is entertaining on a different level. Sometimes it's nice to put away the pâté and just have a burger.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:21:05 2009 No.2581388 >>2581371 Not that it makes you any better if you for eating pâté instead of a hamburger.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:21:05 2009 No.2581393 File: 37 KB, 500x500, dreamofredchamber.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2581231 Why not both?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:22:05 2009 No.2581402 >>2581388 >better for Excuse me.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:24:05 2009 No.2581410 >>2581388 mongrels ITT

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:26:05 2009 No.2581419 >>2581275 Because false dichotomy.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:31:05 2009 No.2581447 >>2581419 LOL dick otomy ! ! !

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:33:05 2009 No.2581456 >>2581359 Fuck yes Fuminori, you are the best insane guy ever

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:34:05 2009 No.2581461 >>2581275 >>Why do you assume that reading visual novels means you don't also read real books? The same people that really believe Bush's international doctrine of "You're either with us or against us"

>>	athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 22:37:05 2009 No.2581466 >>2581393 I thought I was the only one. You cant expect these inferior people to read something so huge.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:40:05 2009 No.2581478 Reading sucks.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 22:52:05 2009 No.2581522 File: 322 KB, 1508x2100, harry-potter.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] why do you read shitty books but not real VNs that you can actually call literature?

Anonymous Tue May 12 22:59:05 2009 No.2581550

I read books too, but a book has never evoked the kind of emotions that Clannad, Crescendo, etc. did. I think some books are amazing, like Catcher in the Rye, Lolita, A Seperate Peace, Wuthering Heights, and more, but for some reason they just don't affect me on the same level as a VN.

>>	Rome !!EPVwTIz4j/f Tue May 12 22:59:05 2009 No.2581553 File: 87 KB, 340x562, 1233112670533.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Fuck Shakespeare, this' where the culture is at. Pfff, of all places, elitism is really inadequate 'round here.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:00:05 2009 No.2581556 Discrediting VN writing is foolish.

>>	athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:01:05 2009 No.2581563 >>2581550 You're reading the wrong books then, find something that suits your tastes and explore that genre/author some more

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:05:05 2009 No.2581577 >>2581563 Books are not moe.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:05:05 2009 No.2581580 >>2581550 Lolita and Wuthering Heights both made me cry but not to the degree that many visual novels have. They're about the only books that have done so (Crime and Punishment is the only other one I can think of).

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:06:05 2009 No.2581585 Most VNs dabble into taboo subjects because their target market is a bit more accepting of such topics. The target market of most modern literature are 30 year old women.

>>	athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:07:05 2009 No.2581590 >>2581577 I'm not seeing a problem here.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:08:05 2009 No.2581598 The only books i like are ones that follow the life of a serial killer, mainly one like dexter which I have found VERY few of.

Anonymous Tue May 12 23:09:05 2009 No.2581603

>>2581563
Some people just prefer a certain medium over another, you prick. I've read a fuckin ton of books, and the ones I listed were very satisfying, but the visual and audio elements in a VN just make the experience better for me. An average VN is equal to a very good book in my experience, though this might just be because translated VNs tend to be the better ones as well.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:09:05 2009 No.2581606 >>2581590 I play VNs only for the cute characters. I can't feel anything for characters that looks like real humans.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:15:05 2009 No.2581639 >>2581580 That bit near the very end, just before the epilogue in Crime and Punishment, yeah. I thought I was the only one. There was a part in both Ever17 and Planetarian that got me choked up, I have to admit.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:15:05 2009 No.2581642 Some books just wouldn't work as VNs and vice versa. Imagine a Neuromancer VN with ero cutscenes? Saya no Uta as a novella?

athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:22:05 2009 No.2581681

>>2581603
Don't call me a prick. Literature is objectively the best artform out there. Nothing has conveyed as many concepts as well as books have, there is literally something for everyone.

>>2581606
I don't think you're being serious, if you are you probably just need to read some more until you find a niche.

Anonymous Tue May 12 23:26:05 2009 No.2581705

>>2581681
>conveyed as many concepts

If I wanted to read about politics or philosophy, I would read about those things directly. Good literature is judged on its aesthetics alone, just like any other medium of art. There's a reason the greatest writers like Nabokov, Hemingway, and Tolkien despised allegory.

Anonymous Tue May 12 23:27:05 2009 No.2581707

>>2581681
Some people are more intrigued by pictures and music along with a story. It's not really anything amazing that people prefer visual stimulation.

The problem with literature is the elitism and sense of superiority of the literature-connoisseur community. There is nothing wrong with people who prefer visual or auditory stimulation over reading. Psychologists agree, don't bother them about it.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:29:05 2009 No.2581718 ITT athens tries to look smart again while quoting his favourite sites.

>>	athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:29:05 2009 No.2581721 >>2581705 Concept doesn't necessarily mean some DEEP metaphysical exploration. It could be something simple like love. >greatest writers >Nabokov Not really.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:31:05 2009 No.2581734 >>2581681 That's not objective. That's your opinion. Someone could say the same about any form of art, it depends on the viewer. ITT: I'm right, you're wrong.

athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:31:05 2009 No.2581741

>>2581707
>elitism

Are you kidding? Most people will be happy to give someone recommendations for books. Perhaps from some there is elitism, but look at the elitism on /jp/. It is exactly the same.

>Psychologists agree

Oh well I guess that is settled then. Nothing bullshit worthy about psychology of course.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:35:05 2009 No.2581764 i do, for different reasons

athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:36:54 2009 No.2581772 [DELETED]

>>2581734
Culture is not as abstract as you claim, and acceptance of culture as something abstract is what allowed it to be degraded so much. Nor is it something that develops completely out of our conscious perception, many negative aspects of culture today (most of what modernism has produced for example).

Are we just supposed to sit by and watch this happen to our culture? Just because you're afraid to hold some actual standards, is the only right solution to accept any degradation? I, for one, refuse to accept this development.

athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:38:05 2009 No.2581783

Culture is not as abstract as you claim, and acceptance of culture as something abstract is what allowed it to be degraded so much. Nor is it something that develops completely out of our conscious perception, many negative aspects of culture today (most of what modernism has produced for example) developed out of a fear of holding objective standards.

Are we just supposed to sit by and watch this happen to our culture? Just because you're afraid to hold some actual standards, is the only right solution to accept any degradation? I, for one, refuse to accept this development

>>	FA☆BU☆LO☆U☆S !U5yUZtVwaY Tue May 12 23:38:05 2009 No.2581785 >>2581681 >Literature is objectively the best artform out there. Proof? What standard are you using to define best, why choose that standard, and how does literature meet that standard better than other media?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:39:05 2009 No.2581789 >>2581741 I love literature but litfags as a whole are probably the most elitist and pretentious assholes out there (artists might be worse).

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:39:05 2009 No.2581790 Athens is a joke, I don't get why any of you are taking him seriously.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:40:05 2009 No.2581798 >>2581783 If you're really concerned about the degradation of culture, VNs probably aren't the greatest of your worries.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:41:05 2009 No.2581806 >>2581785 >Nothing has conveyed as many concepts as well as books have, there is literally something for everyone. That said, it's still wrong as >>2581734

athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:43:05 2009 No.2581813

>>2581785
>What standard are you using to define best

Aesthetics, concept and comprehensibility/depth of concept as delivered by the artform in question.

So, for example, at the bottom stands modern music. Because not only is it aesthetically shit, but it attempts to make political points which just end up sounding redundant or extremist (punk music). Also see what I wrote above.

>>2581789
Who cares? If you hate them that much just laugh at the fact they won't have jobs when they're done. No use getting angry at people that worthless.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:43:05 2009 No.2581815 I like reading. I like animes. Reading + Animes = VN

>>	athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:44:05 2009 No.2581823 >>2581798 I'm not insulting VNs, I have other things in mind. VNs are actually pretty cool when compared to most of the nonsense modernism and postmodernism has produced.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:45:05 2009 No.2581833 >>2581813 what's the matter? Too DEEP for you?

Anonymous Tue May 12 23:45:05 2009 No.2581836

>>2581741
The people who act like elitists on /jp/ are generally trolls or self important tripfags. The elitism in the literature community is prevalent in many people and they view people who don't enjoy reading as "below" them.

There are bullshit psychologists, but there have been multiple studies by many many people who study how people think, who have said that some people absorb information better audibly, some visually, some are more hands on, ect. There is nothing wrong with people who do not enjoy reading.

Anonymous Tue May 12 23:47:05 2009 No.2581852

>>2581813
You act as if all modern music has to offer is rock and roll, when there are many other genres. The best jazz music is as harmonically complex as it gets, and progressive rock often comes close. Besides that, there are still Neo-Classical and Neo-Baroque composers that write in the old styles. Simply, all that's missing today is a nay-saying elitist superstructure that tells everyone what or what not to do.

athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:48:05 2009 No.2581858

>>2581836
Look, see what I wrote above. I'm not defending litfags, I took a class with litfags once, they're awfully pretentious people and they read too deeply into shit, WAY too deeply.

And there is nothing wrong with people who don't enjoy reading, but is this reflective of an inability to concentrate for long periods of time? Probably.

Anonymous Tue May 12 23:49:05 2009 No.2581864

>>2581813
>Who cares? If you hate them that much just laugh at the fact they won't have jobs when they're done. No use getting angry at people that worthless.
I agree. They don't bug me but I'm just saying that >>2581707 is very right to call the literature community elitist.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:50:05 2009 No.2581880 >>2581858 >is this reflective of an inability to concentrate for long periods of time? Certainly, it is. But your point was about being a cultured individual in some objective sense, not about being good at concentration. Nice red herring there, bro.

athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:50:05 2009 No.2581883

>>2581852
>The best jazz music is as harmonically complex as it gets

I doubt it's as complex as an early romantic composer coordinating a full symphony orchestra though. A lot of jazz is ad libbed as well, it doesn't' have rules like orchestral stuff does.

>progressive rock

I don't know what this is so I'll refrain from comment.

>Besides that, there are still Neo-Classical and Neo-Baroque composers that write in the old styles.

Who exactly? Anyone of any real quality?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:51:05 2009 No.2581888 I do. I mainly read philosophy though.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:51:05 2009 No.2581889 >>2581858 > an inability to concentrate for long periods of time? Probably. Believe it or not, it's possible to read a book one chapter at a time and take breaks in between them.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:52:05 2009 No.2581896 >>2581858 Yet those same people can watch a drama or a movie, which can be credited just as well as any other piece of literature as "a work of art" for hours. Some people's brains are just not wired to read for long periods of time.

Anonymous Tue May 12 23:54:05 2009 No.2581908

>>2581836
As a litfag, I do agree with you that there are people that view those that don't enjoy reading as below them. However, as a litfag, I can also say, quite honestly and easily, that this 'sense of superiority' comes from having to grow up surrounded by ingrates that made declarations of astonishment at seeing someone read a book, not to mention the stupid 'joke' that I've personally heard five times more than I'd like to, which goes something like: "Wow, reading, eh? Ha, the last book I read was back in high school!"

I know they're trying to joke around, but that just makes my opinion of you as a thinking, intelligent, and competent human being drop drastically. The fact that you have not read a book (even a damn 3rd grade level book) is not something to toss around with pride, you disgusting scum.

athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:56:05 2009 No.2581923

>>2581880
Don't have such an atomized view of things, the two are related, if you can't concentrate on something then your views are not as valid as someone who can concentrate on all artforms. Not everything is subjective and I can prove it.

Do you not agree that artists are craftsmen?

Do you not agree that as the 'craftsman' has better control over his medium (more technical skill in prose, poetry, sketching, painting) then he inevitably becomes better at conveying whatever concept? In short, that his ideas are 'more effectively transferred to the medium'?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 12 23:58:05 2009 No.2581940 >>2581923 No. A good piece of art isn't always a quality piece of art.

>>	athens !SysNpnp3nU Tue May 12 23:59:05 2009 No.2581951 >>2581940 Elaborate, I did you the decency of elaborating. Explain what you mean.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:00:05 2009 No.2581954 >>2581908 Reading is accustomed to intelligence? So if you don't read your a waste of space? Your opinion says an awful lot about you, and not in a good way.

Anonymous Wed May 13 00:01:05 2009 No.2581962

literature is the best candidate for the deepest form of art simply because it is likely to be the least restricted form out there. It can get as complex and long or as simple and plain as it pleases, while painting, music etc have more rules to follow.
a very long and exhausting novel/literature is what you get when the author has so many points to make and so deep a thought to convey that he must challenge you to your full concentration for a long period of time. Inability to read those books are not always simply a matter of preferences, but may well be a lack of education or will.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:04:05 2009 No.2581970 File: 8 KB, 376x460, I HATE PIE.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2581923 >then he inevitably becomes better at conveying whatever concept? "I HATE PIE," isn't very artistic, even if it gets the point across.

>>	athens !SysNpnp3nU Wed May 13 00:05:05 2009 No.2581977 >>2581970 That isn't a concept, it could be a trait of a character's personality that the author explores though.

Anonymous Wed May 13 00:08:05 2009 No.2581988

>>2581954
Highschoolers have a small and limited capability of intelligence. The fact that you have not exercised your brain with a book since then is outrageous. Granted, they have every right to spend their time how they want, such is how our free world is, but likewise I have every right to think less of them for not bothering to pick up at least one book and read it completely (without sparknotes, unlike they most likely did in high school). You say that my opinion in this matter says a lot about me, and it is true. However, I am a human being and prone to such prejudice. It is no different than how one automatically views a human that spends all of his free time watching TV, playing video games, or posting on 4chan as being, for lack of a better word, 'wrong'. It signals a flag inside that says, "This person is not doing the 'right' thing with his time. He has every right to his way of life, but it still doesn't feel 'right'."

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:08:05 2009 No.2581989 >>2581977 Hatred is a universal concept.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:09:05 2009 No.2581994 >>2581970 >"I HATE PIE," isn't very artistic I don't know about that.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:10:05 2009 No.2581995 >>2581962 >Inability to read those books are not always simply a matter of preferences, but may well be a lack of education or will. This. Try reading Sartre's 'Being and Nothingness' if you disagree.

>>	athens !SysNpnp3nU Wed May 13 00:10:05 2009 No.2582003 >>2581989 Hatred is. Hating pie isn't. Although hating specific types of food as a general trend of humanity probably could be explored through prose. It's a pretty shitty concept to explore though.

Anonymous Wed May 13 00:11:05 2009 No.2582006

>>2581883
Progressive rock are bands like (70s) Genesis, Gentle Giant, Yes, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, etc. As a movement, it's mostly an attempt to push the compositional boundaries of rock to be as sophisticated jazz and classical music.

Jethro Tull - Thick as a Brick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-vXEJrU9i0

Rick Wakeman - Anne Boleyn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CBatTaN8eY

Gentle Giant - On Reflection
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ngFpAIKLfI

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:13:05 2009 No.2582013 >>2581988 I read books because they are interesting, not as some sort of mental push-up. If I wanted to do that, I would look at a college thesis or something.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:14:05 2009 No.2582018 What like Zora Neale Hurston, Toni Morrison, Hemmingway, William Faulkner, or Thoreau who I read in the last 6 months? Just because I read VNs doesn't mean I'm uncultured or illiterate.

>>	athens !SysNpnp3nU Wed May 13 00:15:05 2009 No.2582025 >>2582013 The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, that is what makes a truly great work of art.

Anonymous Wed May 13 00:16:05 2009 No.2582029

>>2582013
Exactly. And you learn something from the book, regardless of what you read, even if it's just 'Oh, this type of personality does this in this situation' or something equally vague. Same goes for TV, gaeming, or 4channing. The thing is, you need to do some of it all, not just focus on one thing and stick to it. Spending ALL of your time watching TV is bad, just as bad as spending all of your time playing games, or lurking on 4chan, or reading.

I'm just saying that you need to try a little of all instead of saying, "lul bookz r bad cuz there 2 long"

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:16:05 2009 No.2582032 >>2582018 And just because you read them does not make you any special.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:18:05 2009 No.2582040 >>2582032 But the fact he could remember the authors' names does. I never can do that.

Anonymous Wed May 13 00:20:05 2009 No.2582051

>>2581923
There's a difference between skill in craftsmanship and aesthetic value. Any person who has taken a couple semesters of music theory can compose "like" Mozart. Does that diminish the aesthetic value of Mozart? No, because its worth is far more than being just "skillfully" composed within the classical ruleset. Artistry is something far more abstract than you realize, and your awe at its logical consistency is simply that of an outsider who has never witnessed or taken part in any sort of actual artistic creation.

>>	athens !SysNpnp3nU Wed May 13 00:21:05 2009 No.2582054 Lets just finish off by saying everyone should read: >>2581393

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:21:05 2009 No.2582055 File: 17 KB, 262x313, successful_troll.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:23:05 2009 No.2582066 >>2582032 Sure but OP assumes that nobody who reads VNs reads anything "cultured" which is the point of my post not "oh look at me I read literature!"

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:23:05 2009 No.2582067 File: 51 KB, 400x579, sicp-cover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] This is now a SICP thread.

>>	Koakuma !!QTSq2xniWw5 Wed May 13 00:26:05 2009 No.2582082 File: 104 KB, 1064x806, SICP.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Everything you need to know is written here: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html

athens !SysNpnp3nU Wed May 13 00:26:05 2009 No.2582085

>>2582051
>"like" Mozart.

Stylistically or qualitatively? Because if its the former it is nothing but imitation, which doesn't bolster your point in any way.

>Artistry is something far more abstract than you realize

Evaluating whether something is good or bad arises from how it relates to a goal. Rain storms therefore are 'good' to a farmer, but 'bad' to a hiker who is going to get his sleeping bag wet. My point is that it is contextual, this doesn't mean it is relativistic, it means that something that promotes or impedes a goal is a matter of objective fact. Art is therefore objective, it may have contextual layering, but it is objective.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:28:05 2009 No.2582094 >>2582006 I fucking love those bands. I'll add a couple: Yes - Close to the Edge http://www.mediafire.com/?zu39ofha2g2 King Crimson - Red http://rapidshare.com/files/149477186/king_crimson_-_red.zip

Anonymous Wed May 13 00:37:05 2009 No.2582142
File: 20 KB, 300x400, 512218-swr_patchouli_large.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2581707

Eh, I still think there's value in reading books over consuming other forms of media. Things such as television, video games (and to a lesser extent VN's), and music all engage the brain in complex ways, but none of them can compare to the amount of imagination and concentration required to digest a good book.

Ray Bradbury (author of Fahrenheit 451) made a very interesting point about the difference between reading and other, more accessible forms of entertainment. He states, "television destroys interest in reading literature, which leads to a perception of knowledge as being composed of 'factoids', partial information devoid of context, e.g., Napoleon's birth date alone, without an indication of who he was." While reading is inferior to television/movies/any graphical medium at conveying minute physical details, it is superior to all of those forms at engaging the brain's imagination, forcing people to think about situations and people in a comprehensive and interpretative manner, rather than a simple "you see what you get."

That being said, it is stupid to look down on people who play video games/VNs etc simply because one reads intellectually engaging novels. But I will say this-- after growing up with a childhood filled with video games, I found, in my early college years, that I had a weak imagination and an even more tenuous grasp on the English language, especially when it came to writing. It was only when I forced myself to read difficult books (for class) that my writing ability improved as well as my imagination and critical thinking abilities.

tl;dr (lol)-- Reading is, quite simply, exercise for the brain. Without it, your imagination and reasoning abilities suffer as does your ability to express yourself. It's nothing to be elitist about, but then again, it is important for a healthy mind.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:38:05 2009 No.2582147 >>2582085 >Stylistically or qualitatively? Because Mozart was forced to follow certain rules of composing, in objective terms, it's essentially the same thing. That is the point you're missing.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:40:05 2009 No.2582161 >>2582142 That's nice, dear.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:43:05 2009 No.2582180 >>2582142 Reading is weak compared to actual daydreaming. Your imagination is so poor that you need to be spoon-fed a story? Pathetic.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 00:44:05 2009 No.2582185 >>2582180 lolutrolme.jpg

>>	MANkoto !/uhtKOHuio Wed May 13 00:47:05 2009 No.2582200 Literature, not so good.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:22:05 2009 No.2582351 I haven't read books for like, 4 years, and I was 15 back then. What are some good books that are easy to find and aren't loaded with complicated shit?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:23:05 2009 No.2582356 >>2582351 Twilight.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:29:05 2009 No.2582378 >>2581231 If you're looking for recommendations, even though it's a play, Arcadia by Stoppard is fantastic. I highly recommend it.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:30:05 2009 No.2582388 >>2582200 It sucks... to infinity

Anonymous Wed May 13 01:43:05 2009 No.2582432

actually da best way to teach people information involves multisensory things, using text isn't so good because the brain has to continuously deconstruct every single letter (even if you aren't aware of the process) and put it all back together again

images are far more clear and easily remembered.

i don't know what this has to do with the artistic merit of one media over the other.

who the fuck cares though, really?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:46:05 2009 No.2582444 Limericks are the highest form of art, and that's an objective fact.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:49:05 2009 No.2582453 >>2582142 I haven't turned my TV on in 5 months. I am always on the computer. But I read..... ebooks.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:51:05 2009 No.2582456 >>2582453 That's low level, bro. You have to not turn on your TV for years until you can start bragging about it on the Internet.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:53:05 2009 No.2582466 >>2582453 It's odd, I can read VNs, but I can't stand e-books. I would rather an actual physical copy.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:56:05 2009 No.2582473 >>2582453 I haven't watched television in about two years, but I do have a TV for my consoles, which I haven't used for six months.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 01:58:05 2009 No.2582479 >>2582456 My roommate turned it on he said something good was on but it sucked. Though, I can't call that an excuse.

>>	athens !SysNpnp3nU Wed May 13 02:02:05 2009 No.2582493 I leave al jazeera on when I'm on my laptop sometimes.

Anonymous Wed May 13 02:04:05 2009 No.2582496

>>2582378

OH GOD YES. DELICIOUS 12 YEAR OLD GENIUS LOLI-- FUCK YEAH!

Stoppard plays are generally good reads, though like all plays, it's preferable to see it on the stage. Here's a brief list of recommendations for different genres of books:

Graphic novels:
The Sandman series by Neil Gaiman (I highly recommend reading the entire series + The Dream Hunters, a collaboration with the artist of the Final Fantasy series/Vampire Hunter D, Yoshitaka Amano)

Science Fiction:
Dune series by Frank Herbert

Contemporary literature:
A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess
House of Leaves by Mark Danielewski

Classic literature (Your mileage may vary):
The Old Man and the Sea by Ernest Hemingway (read this if you want to take it easy)
Notes from the Underground by Fyodor Dostoevsky
Light in August by William Faulkner (arguably his most accessible novel)
Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking-Glass by Lewis Carroll

Arcueid Brunestud !ARCIkc4cG6 Wed May 13 02:05:05 2009 No.2582499

>why do you read shitty VNs but not real books that you can actually call literature?

Precisely the reason why I prefer to curl up with a nice book rather than reading VNs. I have read a few VN's here and there, but my real library of books spans entire walls in my room. Bram Stoker > Kinoko Nasu, any time, any day.

This is a troll thread, though.

So I'd just like to mention off-topically that if anyone ever commercially writes a Touhou novel for westerners, it should be Brian Jacques, with the help of ZUN. The beautiful vistas of Mossflower Woods come alive and draw breath with Mr. Jacques's richly detailed prose, and his characters are so grounded, so three-dimensional that you find yourself sympathizing with them all, losing yourself in their own stories and their own struggles, instead of merely focusing on the overarching plot.

It will never happen, but one can dream.

>>	Arcueid Brunestud !ARCIkc4cG6 Wed May 13 02:06:05 2009 No.2582504 >>2582496 Neil Gaiman has begun to annoy me, recently. But you should give American Gods and Anansi Boys a read. You shan't regret it.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 02:08:05 2009 No.2582506 >>2582504 >Neil Gaiman has begun to annoy me, recently. Why?

Arcueid Brunestud !ARCIkc4cG6 Wed May 13 02:13:05 2009 No.2582524

>>2582506

'Pretentious' is a word oft hurled by uneducated people in the hopes of spiting the more articulate members of society.

But I'm afraid I must use this weary epithet in Neil Gaiman's case. He has gotten a tad overbearing and full of himself recently, believing himself to be a tiny god amongst the Goths. They worship him so. I can hardly blame him.

Anonymous Wed May 13 02:33:05 2009 No.2582601
File: 163 KB, 1000x524, in-betweens.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2582524

Still, the accolades Gaiman receives are not without merit. I personally try to not let an artist's personality, however idiosyncratic it may be, impede my appreciation of their work. I also generally ignore what is popular and what is not (mostly due to my misanthropic nature) and it only recently occurred to me that Neil Gaiman's work is starting to become popular among young people today.

Honestly, even if he does become an incredibly mainstream author much like Stephen King or Dan Brown, it would not detract from my love of his works since unlike the aforementioned two authors, his characters are memorable and have a great deal of substance. In a way, the cast of The Sandman is so well conceived that I cannot help but draw associations between that and ZUN's Touhou, each body of work containing such vivid characters that they naturally spark the imagination to create new imaginary scenarios for those characters to live out.

I mean, honestly, how can anyone read about Delirium and not immediately fall in love with her (art notwithstanding, I enjoy her personality more than the artist's interpretation of that character)?

Anonymous Wed May 13 02:48:05 2009 No.2582666

In my whole life, the only VN I've played is Nocturnal Illusion.
Besides, why do I need to play VN to fap when I can simply go to /h/ or aerisdies.com

tldr: READ REAL BOOKS/LITERATUREs, FAGGOTS!

Is all that we see or seem;
Is but a dream within a dream?
Fuck Shakespeare, I fap to Poe

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 02:49:05 2009 No.2582674 >>2582666 Not all Visual Novels have porn in them

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 02:55:22 2009 No.2582703 >>2582147 Mozart broke most of the conventional composing rules. The guy was a rebel.

>>	Misaki-chan is mai waifu !KRQGZtqKic Wed May 13 02:56:05 2009 No.2582714 >>2582496 >Dune series by Frank Herbert Hell yeah, bro. Try and avoid all that stuff his son wrote though. Not nearly as good.

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:04:05 2009 No.2582750
File: 8 KB, 200x188, 200px-Bram_Stoker1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>2582499
>implying that Bram Stoker was a good author

Stoker was purely meh tier (although I did like Jewel of the Seven Stars. But not Dracula, oddly enough). Read some William Hope Hodgeson and weep that he died in WWI

also, 4chan needs a /lit/

Arcueid Brunestud !ARCIkc4cG6 Wed May 13 03:05:05 2009 No.2582756

>>2582601

I used to like Sandman, really I did. Then it got too Grimdark even for my tastes. "Oh, I am DREAM and I am the most GOTH of all that is GOTH. You will NEVER understand the internal pain that DRIVES ME TO PUSH EVERYTHING AWAY!)

Cue every tarted-up gothqueen sucking on Gaiman's dick.

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:05:05 2009 No.2582757

>>2581883
>jazz is ad libbed as well, it doesn't' have rules like orchestral stuff does

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

It does, since the music needs to be kept in tune while musicians improvise. They're more complex, too, to allow for more, and need to be constantly remembered while playing.

>I don't know what progressive rock is

It's probably the rock you've spent the last millenium under. I mean... seriously, you've just admitted to completely missing the entire decade of music development.

>>	Arcueid Brunestud !ARCIkc4cG6 Wed May 13 03:06:05 2009 No.2582759 >>2582750 >also, 4chan needs a /lit/ If this happened I would leave /jp/ and never come back.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:06:05 2009 No.2582766 >>2582714 >Not nearly as good Yeah, they've got some plot-holes and anachronisms

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:08:05 2009 No.2582772 >>2582759 >I would leave /jp/ and never come back. Two birds, one stone.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:11:05 2009 No.2582786 >>2582750 We have /book/ and that's a terrible board. It's incredibly elitist even by 4chan standards.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:11:05 2009 No.2582788 >>2582772 dohohohohoho

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:13:05 2009 No.2582794

>>2582756

Interesting, since I had a different take on the Sandman character. I always felt he was a whiny, angsty bitch in the first novel, right up until he meets his older sister Death who talks some sense into him . Then as the series progresses, he develops more attachments to people around him as he tries to earnestly atone for the wrongdoings of his past. If anything, I felt that he moved away from the whole grimdark "no one understands me" bullshit to becoming more sincere and compassionate towards others.

I can't really comment on the goth girls sucking cock thing. Honestly though, if Gaiman can get a young sweet goth girl to suck his cock, props for him :D

>>	Aoko Aozaki !WU0xSUGOI6 Wed May 13 03:18:05 2009 No.2582809 File: 28 KB, 250x373, Book_-_Romeo_Dallaire_-_Shake_Hands_With_The_Devil.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Didn't read thread just posting to say that I'm reading this at the moment and it's great

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:20:05 2009 No.2582816 >>2582759 NO!!! Think about your waifu! You heartless monster!

>>	Aoko Aozaki !WU0xSUGOI6 Wed May 13 03:27:05 2009 No.2582831 File: 20 KB, 149x226, 1574883437_cf150.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] If you guys are turned off by books because fiction bores you almost as much as book fags annoy you the solution is to not read fiction.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:27:05 2009 No.2582833 >>2582816 I don't think you need to come to /jp/ to have a waifu.....

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:40:05 2009 No.2582878 >>2582831 But I like fiction. Isn't Umineko just as much a fiction as, say, Crime and Punishment? I like both.

>>	Aoko Aozaki !WU0xSUGOI6 Wed May 13 03:45:05 2009 No.2582897 >But I like fiction >If you guys are turned off by books because fiction bores ?????

Anonymous Wed May 13 03:51:05 2009 No.2582921

American names sound corny to me.
I like foreign names or something Tolkien sounding.
How characters fall in love in American novels seems kind of shallow to me. "Ah this female has impressive attractiveness. I wish to court her and become her mating partner."
While in visual novels relationships are more story driven like how Shiki ends up having sex with Arcueid. (Okay, not best example.)

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 03:58:05 2009 No.2582945 >>2582921 Truly, this is an impartial representation of American literature as a whole and isn't biased by cultural fetishism at all.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:05:05 2009 No.2582972 >>2582921 If you've just been reading the books you pick off supermarket lines, then sure, I can understand that.

Anonymous Wed May 13 04:21:05 2009 No.2583027

>>2582051
There is subjectivity to art, but its importance is commonly overstated. A good composer will master the objective first as the ground works for his artistic expression, and then consider what subjectivity he wants to add. Having this objective standard is what separates some pretentious fag from slamming his piano keys randomly for 30 minutes and saying it's a musical piece that exemplifies his anger and a skilled composer who adds some depth to music that can already be considered pleasing.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 04:34:05 2009 No.2583070 I'm reading Snow Country at the moment. I think I've fallen in love with Komako.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 13 06:43:05 2009 No.2583503 >>2581783 We all know of you beign a textbook fascist. Sad thing is that the fascist are the ones behind the degradation of the western culture.

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