/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

Are secondaries really a problem?

The working theory is that secondaries, in their enjoyment of secondary media, can overtake primary fans and thus destroying the primary media by forcing the creators to either stop creating primary media or shape it into an inferior version of its former self, because the original creators have a financial incentive to appeal to them instead of the original, dedicated fanbase.

Has this truly ever been the case? Is there an example of this occurring in media with a direct causal link, rather than outside factors causing these changes?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332976

Yes absolutely.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332988
Do you have evidence for your claim?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332976
Yes, just look on Twitter.

[Anonymous No.]

>because the original creators have a financial incentive to appeal to them instead of the original, dedicated fanbase

Honestly you could skip whatever bullshit about "secondary media" and get straight to the issue that financial restraints and incentives negatively impact art in general. For every ZUN, there's plenty of talented artists, musicians and programmers that make great shit, but can't focus on it because then bills ain't getting paid that month

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332988
>>22332990
Proof?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332976
Guys is water wet?

[Anonymous No.]

Fate Grand Order

[Anonymous No.]

This board really is filled with neckbeards who can't spew a single correct sentence in japanese and have the nerves to call people secondaries
>i played game !
have you actually bought it ? if you downloaded it you're no better than the ones you're looking down to. Hell, even if you bought it, they're not translated, zun is still fucking surprised when westerners play his games.
you're not the target audience, zun doesn't care what you think.
he would be disgusted by your point of view, he's disappointed that touhou is only focused on his games and not on other fanworks since it's a dojin license.

[Anonymous No.]

What is a secondary

[Anonymous No.]

>>22333087
Who are you quoting?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22333087
make ZUN list all of his games on steam or anywhere for digital download for western fans, and I will have them all

[Anonymous No.]

>>22333087
Fuck off and make me pay for shit faggot

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332976
Yeah, happens all the time. You have something of good quality that has a relatively high entry barrier and it becomes popular. Then in an attempt to broaden the appeal and let new people in something happens that lowers that entry barrier but by doing so attracts people that don't fully comprehend what was it that made the thing great but want in for the memes and shit. Eventually these new people become the majority or at least a sizable chunk of "the fanbase" and the creators start to acknowledge and pander to them which can go either way but usually ends up with a dumbed down product with less SOUL. You can always say that the original work is still there and will always be but in the age of the internet you don't consume in a vaccum, you interract with other people sharing your interests and these interractions enhance and complete the experience.

A good example of this happening would be the Souls video game series after it got ported to PC. I think steam ports of seamingly niche eastern games illustrate well how opening up to new lazy people ends up in killing of the series. Like how anime games are now associated with trannies when it was "loser otaku" during the PS2/PS3 era.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332976
Secondaries are only a problem insofar that they keep whining every time you point out Gensokyo is a terrible place.

[Anonymous No.]

You know, the main issue is that nobody the fuck knows what "secondary" anymore. It's like "weeb", it's gone through a phase where it kept being relentlessly thrown around like a buzzword until the majority of people forgot its original meaning.
I thought it used to stand for people that don't consume the source material at all. It's true that in that sense, they can be a problem in some fanbase. But now people, at least here, come up with a billion definitions. It's just fanwank and retarded elitism at this point.
Truth to be told, Touhou is indeed a doujin license and, to my knowledge so far, ZUN has never had any issue with that. So I don't see why should anyone feel bad for enjoying secondary material.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22334190
anywhere children may smile cannot be a terrible place, just kinda sucky.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22333087

This

If you aren't Japanese you can only be a secondary at the very best

[Anonymous No.]

>This board really is filled with neckbeards who can't spew a single correct sentence in japanese and have the nerves to call people secondaries
>>i played game !
>have you actually bought it ? if you downloaded it you're no better than the ones you're looking down to. Hell, even if you bought it, they're not translated, zun is still fucking surprised when westerners play his games.
>you're not the target audience, zun doesn't care what you think.
he would be disgusted by your point of view, he's disappointed that touhou is only focused on his games and not on other fanworks since it's a dojin license.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22334190
Better than here, so I’ll take it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22334274

Why you

post like this?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22334206
>So I don't see why should anyone feel bad for enjoying secondary material.
A secondary is someone who engages /only/ in secondary material, ie. a pleb

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332976
happens constantly in videogame industry.
when game series is popular or have known name they can prety much make it shit as possible and it still sells and thats only thing they care when something becomes (too) popular and lots of money is involved.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22334380

reminds me of

reddit spacing

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332976
>The working theory is that secondaries, in their enjoyment of secondary media, can overtake primary fans and thus destroying the primary media by forcing
The fuck? No. They're just annoying.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332990
Secondaries =/= normalfags

[Anonymous No.]

>>22334229
>anywhere children may smile cannot be a terrible place
You can make a child smile in fucking Syria if you jingle a shiny object in front of their face. It's really not that hard.

>>22334349
>Better than here,
Unless you live in a dirt poor third world country, I very much doubt that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22334977
>Unless you live in a dirt poor third world country
This world has gone to shit regardless of where you are. I'd rather a place where humans are getting fucked by monsters than a place where humans are fucking themselves.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22335051
>This world has gone to shit regardless of where you are.
How so? For most of the world, things are better than ever by any even somewhat objective measurement. Sure, there are massive problems. But there have always been massive problems.

Also, humans fucking themselves is something that can actually be fixed. The only solution to youkai is genocide or enslavement.

[Anonymous No.]

I remember when "poser" was the main buzzword. now people don't even know what secondary means.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22335064
>The only solution to youkai is genocide or enslavement.
explain Rinnosuke, Keine, Kosuzu, the parties at the shrine and how big your asshole is to be 90% of your mass.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22333013
fate was basically made for mass marketing from the get-go so the soulless corporate VN turning into a soulless corporate gacha isn't really that big of a change.

[Anonymous No.]

>whito piggus think they are primaries

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332976
tell zun to make his games more accessible, like skyrim, if you want more people to be primaries

[Anonymous No.]

>>22336789
you know where to go

[Anonymous No.]

>>22334561
/thread
Secondaries make the conversation, which is already only above passable at best, even worse. To actually have a good converstion with someone about anything, 2hu or not, its important to make basic assumptions. Otherwise you waste time explaining context , which quickly grows tiresome, and draws attention away from the topics people actually want to talk about, and brings the whole level of discourse down. Hence why popular forums/boards eventually go to shit. The least I can expect is people have played the fucking video game they're trying to have a conversation about

[Anonymous No.]

>>22334977
>You can make a child smile in fucking Syria if you jingle a shiny object in front of their face. It's really not that hard.
Imagine how much the outside world must suck in ZUNverse if children aren't able to smile in it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22336772
>fate was basically made for mass marketing from the get-go
This
Otherwise, Illya would have gotten the route she deserved

[Anonymous No.]

>>22336805
They're literally free, that's as accessible as you can get. You want them to be dumbed down.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337005
They literally aren't, you pirate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22336858
Children in the outside world do smile, you speedreader.
>"When was the last time I've seen children smiling so Mysterious songs that I've never listened to; mysterious dances that I've never seen. Maybe there was a festival today. I thought I also always wanted to in such a country where I can see this kind of smile on these children."

Maribel isn't used to seeing children smile the way they do in Gensokyo. That's neither evidence that no children ever smile in the outside world, which is a ridiclous idea. Or that the children in Gensokyo are massively happy compared to children in the outside world, which seems unlikely considering their awful standards of living.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22336629
>Rinnosuke, Keine
Half humans.

>Kosuzu
A human.

>the parties at the shrine
Reimu works for youkai and keep them around by maintaining the Gensokyo barrier. Why the fuck wouldn't they like her?

>how big your asshole is to be 90% of your mass.
Not as big as Reimu, since that girl is 100% a asshole.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22336954
>Otherwise, Illya would have gotten the route she deserved
Was actually planned. But most of it ended up cut for time and repurposed into the Heaven Feel route.

[Anonymous No.]

Personally I don't care so long as people are having fun and aren't being smug assholes about things they say they know but they dont.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337339
>Was actually planned.
I know, that's why I mentioned that
But I will never believe it was cut "for time" instead of keeping the audience wide by not having loli h-scenes

Fuck worms, I hate Heaven's Feel

[Anonymous No.]

How do you feel about primary fans who eventually faded into secondaries? I played 3-12.8 quite a bit when I was younger and loved the games but I am nearly thirty and don't have a lot of time. I haven't sat down and 1CC'd a game for a number of years now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337575
I mean Fate was never meant to have H scenes in the first

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337575
>But I will never believe it was cut "for time" instead of keeping the audience wide by not having loli h-scenes
I mean, the sequel to Tsukihime had a loli sex scene. And even FGO has loli's that dress like prostitutes. I think you might be reaching.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337608
I'm one of these, you have to be young to be good at these games. Most primaries are probably underage

[Anonymous No.]

>>22334477
>writing an continuous non-paragraph stream of text
>muh tl;dr
>writing a stream of text, separated by paragraphs
>muh reddit spacing hurr durr
Get out of your computer for once, you braindead piece of shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337660
Who are you quoting?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337660
You seem to be unaware of what reddit spacing actually is, and lashing out because your outside tendencies are not allowed here.
Also who are you quoting?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337323
>Children in the outside world do smile, you speedreader.
Someone who says they want to live in country where X is implied to live a country without X.

Your enlightened reading of this sentence is that it means literally nothing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337757
>Someone who says they want to live in country where X is implied to live a country without X.
>I thought I also always wanted to in such a country where I can see this kind of smile on these children.
>this kind of smile.
>this kind.
Do you not know what this means?

>Your enlightened reading of this sentence is that it means literally nothing.
No, my reading of this sentence is that children don't smile in the way they do in Gensokyo because there is no mystery anymore in the outside world. It's a world where children are taught that youkai, santa claus, the tooth fairy, and other fairy tales don't exist basically from the moment they are born. You can argue that's bad, and I won't even necessarily disagree with you, but pretending that means literally no children ever smile in the outside world is retarded at best.

Gensokyo is a land build by evil monsters, for evil monsters, mostly benefiting evil monsters. For every single child that smiles because of the wonders of not knowing everything, there is a lost outsider child that was spirited away and brutally murdered. For every person that managed to find some joy in Gensokyo, there are twenty that would have been even happier in the outside world. And for every person that dreamed of magic being real, there is a villager in Gensokyo wishing that all the youkai would simply disappear. You can argue "But some people would be happier there". You can argue "But youkai have a right to exist as well". You can even argue "Gensokyo isn't a dystopia". But if you are seriously going to pretend that it's somehow supposed to be better than the outside world, then you are genuinely a delusional secondary. Somebody that, at best, doesn't understand the actual work or the point it's trying to make.

I mean, for fuck sake. Even if you don't think Maribel is Yukari and the entire Sealing Club story is her journey into villainy. Then the girl is still shown to be somewhat crazy and unstable. Arguing that her dislike of the outside world is proof that it's some kind of evil dystopia is not just stupid, it's downright wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22336805
good example people liking that game that is like skyrim secondaries considering old elder scoll games were better by land fall.

in the end skyrim is good example of what went wrong with overrated francihes

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337869
>Do you not know what this means?
She's using the children in front of her as a reference. There's no context to suggest that she only wants smiles that happen for any particular specific reason within CoSD itself. The literal translation put any particular emphasis on "this kind" of smile anyway. It's more or less "I thought that I would like to one day live in a country with the smiles of these children."

>but pretending that means literally no children ever smile in the outside world is retarded at best.
It's a general statement. Saying that Siberia is cold does not mean that it's literally never warm in Siberia. It does mean that it is generally cold.

> But if you are seriously going to pretend that it's somehow supposed to be better than the outside world, then you are genuinely a delusional secondary.
Arguments about the essential nature of Gensokyo could go any number of places. Right now I'm only interested in picking apart one single point: "does the statement that children are happier in Gensokyo than in the outside world have any textual basis in CoSD?" If we can't come to a resolution on a single specific point with self-contained textual evidence it's immediately obvious that none of the other discussion would ever go anywhere.

From the text, it appears that:
- Maribel thinks that children in her country rarely smile, and that she would like to live in a country where the children smile like the ones she's seeing.
- Renko thinks that the children in her country don't seem to be having fun.
- ZUN thinks that the world of children in his country have hearts that are becoming smaller and smaller.

In particular, Maribel's comments on the children are the accompanying story for Innocent Treasures, which ZUN considers his personal theme. What CoSD says about Gensokyo may not be the same as what other sources say about Gensokyo. But I'm not asking about those other sources. What does CoSD itself suggest about the relative happiness of children in Gensokyo versus the outside world?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337247
Where do you think you are?

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>22338078
A thread for primaries.

[Anonymous No.]

Congrats on summoning the /vg/ grimsokyo autist to your thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337247
Just because it is sold for a price does not mean it is not literally free, if you can get it without paying anything, it is literally free, just unethical.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22338008
>There's no context to suggest that she only wants smiles that happen for any particular specific reason within CoSD itself.
Sure. But what is made clear by both the context and the actual text is that she's talking about wanting to live in a country where children smile like this.

>It's a general statement.
No, not really. It's more like saying you like the warm weather in Indonesia. And then somebody else assumes that mean the weather back home is as cold as Siberia.

>Maribel thinks that children in her country rarely smile, and that she would like to live in a country where the children smile like the ones she's seeing.
Again, she does not think the children in her country rarely smile. Just that their smiles are different, arguably worse, than the smiles of the children in Gensokyo.

>Renko thinks that the children in her country don't seem to be having fun.
Renko puts it down more as a question rather than a opinion. While her answer does seem to indicate that it's true to at least a certain extent. The reason she gives has less to do with Gensokyo, and more to do with the way children are taught to view dreams as simply another part of reality. The conclusion she reaches is explicitly not "Children are happier in Gensokyo" but "Children should be taught that dreams are something that can be made into reality."

>ZUN thinks that the world of children in his country have hearts that are becoming smaller and smaller.
Again, what matters there is the actual reason. The problem he has in question being that children basically grow up on the internet nowadays, which is true, and that such a thing is bad, which is also arguably true. But, again, there isn't much to indicate Gensokyo is significantly better outside of the fact that the internet doesn't exist. Hell, one of the problems he has is that going outside is often viewed as dangerous. Meaning that children tend to stay indoors most of the time. Now, not to dismiss the idea that going outside can't be dangerous as a child in modern urban Japan. But I can say without much doubt that it's significantly less dangerous than going outside in a land inhabited by human flesh eating monsters.

>What does CoSD itself suggest about the relative happiness of children in Gensokyo versus the outside world?
Not much. Simply that there are aspects of living in Gensokyo that are good for raising children.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22333087
>>22334274
I have learned Japanese and that primarily for the purpose of truly appreciating Touhou

[Anonymous No.]

Speaking of secondaries, whats a good touhou to start with?

should I use a keyboard or controller?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22339711
Start with Touhou 15, you have unlimited lives. I'd recommend using a joystick.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22339762
>Start with Touhou 15, you have unlimited lives. I'd recommend using a joystick.

Thanks. I'll try not to need them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22339711
>>22339762
See that's prime secondary thinking and terrible advice.
Play them in the chronological order while reading all dialogue, getting all endings and reading the written material like the introductions and character profiles. Also read the official fan books and manga and shit when you reach that point in time with the games.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22333087
You're retarded, just wanted to let you know
Also who are you quoting?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22339711
I recommend starting with 7/PCB or 8/IN, if you think that those aren't your style, feel free to try something like 14.3/ISC or 12.5/DS

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332976
Considering the breadth, scope, and over all popularity of dykeshit in 2hu compared to any other franchise. I think its safe to say as far as the creator pandering is concerned, that's a no.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22337333
imagine being this rumia and blupilled.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332976
I like the music and I'm way too impatient, bored to play any bullet hell, or a video game after all. Especially since there is a truckload of things I must take care of.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22341708
People still post this image?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22341866
Dunno. I am mostly using this place as a sounding board. to be honest Osana reimu and reireimu where so good they kind of killed my interest in touhou. I havent been heavily involved or invested since. It's reimu's perfect character arc made all the sweeter by sisterly symmetry between her and rumia's, and encapsulates the spirit of spellcards and the danmaku and tea. I dont know how the fandom really reacted to this information and I'm eager to find out. So far my experiances with the
>current year
give me a healthy respect for the validity of people being tired of gay, even if 2hu was like yuris home base for years before everything got turned to 11, I wouldnt be surprised if everyone on this board reacted violently to shipping even if it was different earlier.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22332976
yes. Play the games read the mangas be an active member you fuck

pic unrelated

[Anonymous No.]

>>22342025
First of all, you have to leave, secondly, play the games fag.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22342049
>Durr I'm a fucking retard
going around screaming to play the games doesn't work so well when you accost random 2hu players anon. I started with the games in the first place. unless your favorite is not tohou reiden don't talk to me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22342049
>Durr I'm a fucking retard
going around screaming to play the games doesn't work so well when you accost random 2hu players anon. I started with the games in the first place. unless your favorite is tohou reiden don't talk to me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22342025
>>22342068
I legitimately have no idea what you're trying to say, could you please try speaking English?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22342103
Hes probably an ESL anon

[Anonymous No.]

>>22342107
So am I but at least I make an effort to make myself comprehensible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22342103
the two statements aren't related in any way, one is a response to a question about the image and me clarifying why I posted it, another is some faggot who thinks I'm a fan of the fandom. Just because I'm not "good" at video games doesn't mean I don't 1cc my 2hus. watching some retard perfect a game on youtube is boring as hell anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22341708
Anime Maru is a satire website.
Whatever comes out of it is as credible as anything from The Onion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22342123
>watching some retard perfect a game on youtube is boring as hell anyway.
the fact you know this is why you have to leave fag.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22341702
>7/PCB

might try that first then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22341728
Imagine using terms like bluepilled without wanting to disembowel yourself.

[Anonymous No.]

It happened with Fate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22342192
>hurrrrrrr
just repeat your rhetoric ad nauseum, maybe it will work.
>>22342154
All news websites are bullshit anon. If zun's a troll thats one thing but I dont remember him making other shitposts

[Anonymous No.]

>>22343517
who are you quoting?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22343012
Fate was dead by the time you got into it, and you know this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22342068
>>22343517
Who are you quoting?

[Anonymous No.]

>inventing a term for ease of access to gatekeeping
I don't want to give you guys the bad news, but you guys touting these terms like secondaries make you look like one of the worst Western fanbases out there. You guys are just like post-FGO Fate fans, constantly being autistic about watch order/how they hate people who got into the franchise from the mobile gacha. I didn't get into Fate for years, and when I did, it started off smack dab on Fate Zero because I was so sick of hearing "What, are you autistic? You need to watch it in THIS order!" that I just said fuck it and started wherever the hell I wanted because it felt like I was being looked down at by an instructor hearing the same shit over and over again about "plebs who didn't read the VN, who didn't do it in this order," this, that.
Same with Touhou honestly. I stayed far away from it for years because of people like you who have nothing better to do with yourselves than express your hate constantly to others through the use of terms like "secondary". It has an effect on me when I'm deciding which of the Touhou games I want to play next, that I might look like one of you mean angry folk when I'm recommending Touhou to one of my friends, just as your words filled my head at one point.You and your words of prejudice really stick out to people hoping to get into Touhou, like a guard reluctantly opening a gate for you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22343517

[Anonymous No.]

>>22343769
Who are you quoting?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22343769
gatekeeping is good because all you have to do is put an extremely small hurdle to entry up and a mass of blithering retards are filtered out because they cant put even the smallest effort into anything

even then you still get morons like the people that trickle in here from /v/ or /vg/ but it could be so, so much worse

[Anonymous No.]

>>22343769
>when I'm recommending Touhou to one of my friends
We're not gatekeeping hard enough.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22344057
Where did you first learn about touhou? What makes your claim bigger than my own?

See how juvenile these questions feel? It's just a matter of who has the biggest swingset on the playground. And by the way, I don't have any friend to recommend Touhou to. That was just an example. If they were into shmups, I'd name a plethora of games way better, without the "i am da biggest supafan and you cannot enta" people like you that always seem to flock to these things.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22344113
>I don't have any friend to recommend Touhou to
gee I wonder why.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22343588
>>22343701
>>22343783
Yeesh, figures, pure seeth and cope.
>>22342154
no really if you have any other times zun played jokes on the fan base I'd be more inclined to believe it. are there any?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22343517
Nobody said that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22344522
>pure seeth and cope.
imagine using newer slang and misspelling seethe

get the fuck out of here kid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22344522
Who the fuck is zun?

[Anonymous No.]

>>22344808
A tripfag that used to post here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>22344833
I remember him. Was an adamant fairycon

[Anonymous No.]

>>22344303
ironic, considering your behavior is what consistently pushes people away. you're literally here for my sekrit club

[Anonymous No.]

I got called a tertiary a while ago

[Anonymous No.]

>>22345929
don't worry I'm only an incendiary shithead to anons.