Is Touhou grimdark?

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

No.

[Anonymous No.]

This thread again?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133257
Yes

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

It's somewhat dark beneath the surface but in no way is it grimdark

Zounose's writing is grim retarded

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133257
Is this a Yukari thread?

[Anonymous No.]

the artist is grim retarded like anon said

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133257
No. But there are certainly some very dark aspects to the setting. Most of them related to Yukari, who is a absolute monster of a woman and a massive karma houdini.

[Anonymous No.]

Who is better at writing: Zounose or Roki?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133549
Roki. At least his stories are internally consistent.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133549
Zounose. Porn is stupid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133457
t. Kasen

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133578
It's almost like Kasen, who is more probably more familiar with Yukari than almost anybody else in Gensokyo, would realize she's irredeemably evil. While us, the audience trying to learn as much about Gensokyo but having to mostly rely on unreliable sources, would be taken in by her natural charisma.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133457
What a whiteknighting moralfag.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133549
Zounose when he's not on his edgeboner.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133622
Nah. If i was a white knight i would be defending her on the basis of of being a woman.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133622
Go back to dissecting lolis and stuffing them into cartridges, Bondrewd.

[Anonymous No.]

Huh, Undertale-kun is here for his daily dose of dopamine rush again?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133641
Are morals really that useful though?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133257
treating Touhou as grimdark is as stupid as treating it as strictly a cute fluffy setting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133675
>Reimu murders a fortune teller
>cute and fluffy
Ok

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133684
That's what I'm saying.

For every time someone is murdered in Touhou or implications about humans being eaten or the power struggle between youkai factions are mentioned, you also get all the lighthearted banquets, the friendly banters, and in general it's not that unpleasant of a setting for everyone involved.

The dark implications are as important as the whimsical lighthearted romps to define Touhou. Removing either would be stupid.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133659
Yes. For everyone, even Youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133724
Youkai have a different system of morality though

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133697
I agree. Yes, there are awful horrible things that happen in Gensokyo. Yukari is probably going to keep doing all of the awful things she does. The humans are oppressed. Outsiders are murdered. And Reimu never seems to give too much of a fuck about any of this.

But at the same time. Gensokyo is still a pretty livable place for humans as long as you aren't a intelectual, only being bad in comparison to the modern world. A lot of youkai and gods are pretty decent. Technological progress is slowly starting to happen. And it's possible to become quite powerful as a human by becoming a magician or a priest.

I might personally think Gensokyo is causing way more harm than good. And i have a hard time sympathizing with Youkai. But i don't think the setting is grimdark. If only because i don't think it's impossible for the situation to get better.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133757
No. They don't have any system of morality. They just do whatever the fuck they want, like a bunch of sociopaths.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133790
>Youkai
>sociopaths
You can't speak of sociopathy in a species which forms no societies and operates on an entirely individualistic mental setup. With the exception of some (Kappa, Tengu, others that do build societies), most youkai just do what they are meant to do. This is what they are.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133601
"evil" isn't really a proper concept in Japan, especially applied to gods and non-humans. If she is following "the path" that is in sync with the nature of her existence she is doing nothing wrong.

If she is supposed to uphold x and y and shirks her duty or betrays her people, that would make her actually "bad". Everything else is a matter of human perspective.

[Anonymous No.]

you seriously didn't get enough attention from the thread that just died? /vg/ are a bigger bunch of retards than i thought by apparently giving you the time of day repeatedly. why don't you go back there instead of coming here specifically to shitpost

https://boards.fireden.net/vg/thread/212500323/#212598285
https://boards.fireden.net/vg/thread/212500323/#212570731
https://boards.fireden.net/vg/thread/212500323/#212575140

get the fuck out of /jp/

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133790
They may look human, but they are entirely alien
Human morality does not apply, only their own unique flavour

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133549
Zounose
His Suwako is supar

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133879
Braindead retards can’t learn. They keep coming even after you tell them to get the fuck out

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133862
There is such a thing as evil, even in japanese culture. And some Youkai are generally viewed as evil, or at least bad. If it's in their nature is irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133902
But their own flavor is utterly worthless, cruel, and ultimately self destructive. Only by following superior human morality will they have, and deserve, a future.

>>19133830
I don't care if it's their nature to act like sociopaths. Or if they "Do what they are meant to do". Human nature also inclines us to do terrible things. Yet we are still expected, both by the divine and by our fellow humans, to be better than that. Expecting the same of a different species of almost equal intelligence is not something i will ever view as odd.

Seriously, you can people can argue "It's in their nature!" and "They have different morality!" as much as you want. But until i find a superior code, i will continue to belief in human definitions of good and evil. Because i think they are good definitions. While "simply doing what you're supposed to do" is something that leads to cruelty, suffering, and self destruction.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133257
It can be at times

[Anonymous No.]

>>19134332
Yes. Poor easily manipulated villagers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19134291
>cruelty, suffering, and self destruction
Are those bad?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19134519
Yes. If the way you live your life is cruel, results in suffering, and is ultimately self destructive. Then it is bad.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133879
The thread in question.
>>19110898

Reminder that this guy has his head up his ass. Do not respond.

[Anonymous No.]

Why do you people love ruining threads by replying to the mentally retarded moralfag? Everything that can be said to destroy his "arguments" has already been said a dozen times in other threads. It's getting old.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19134623
Maybe the reason why people love responding to me is because, deep down inside, they know i'm right.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133321
this p.s. yukari rules the earth w

[Anonymous No.]

>>19135537
The best she can hope for is to rule one small piece of japan for the foreseeable future. The rest of earth will always remain in the hands of the people that deserve it, humanity.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133257
This wouldn't be able to happen if it was.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19134291
With Ran it's implied that they were literally programmed by the Lunarians to be man-eating monsters and they can resist their nature no more than a computer can perform an action outside of its defined parameters. Assuming the Lunarians didn't directly create them, they're victims of mass-brainwashing in a dick-waving contest between Lunaria and China with the rest of the world suffering the fallout.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19136489
stop responding and encouraging his deluded arguing

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133659
Yes, they are.
And don't try to imply that Bondrewd was morally wrong. The lives of a few orphans no one cares about is way less important than thousands of people surviving the two thousand year cycle.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19134332
Kasen is an interesting exhibit, since she is a youkai mimicking what could be considered compassionate, human-like behavior. Lots of implications that she had (and perhaps still has) ulterior motives have been thrown around in WaHH, but recent developments point to some kind of sincerity behind her actions. This is why I think she is one of the most interesting characters in Touhou right now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19135575
Isn't she both well over a millennium old and extremely skilled at manipulation and politicking?
She could probably take over the world due to accumulated experience and knowledge

[Anonymous No.]

>>19137533
>well over a millennium old
Jesus, imagine being THAT much of a hag.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19136552

[Anonymous No.]

>>19137565
That's still younger than Tewi and Eirin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19137533
>She could probably take over the world due to accumulated experience and knowledge
The very fact that Gensokyo exists, even as a concept, means that Yukari ain't nearly as great as she makes herself to be.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19138253
What if she controls a lot of parallel universes and just visits gensokyo?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19136489
I know they were PROBABLY created by the Lunarians to fuck over humanity. But i don't think they are completely unable to overcome their nature, or go against their programing. Hell, some of them already have. I don't think it's impossible for Youkai-kind to find redemption, for lack of a better description.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19137533
Nah. She could cause quite a bit of damage with her schemes and plans. But the Youkai of Gensokyo are simply far too weak to take over the world. Even with their healing factor, most modern militaries would turn them into mince meat.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19139106
Taking over the planet does not require straight military strength for the most part, you can do without until you have enough influence to snowball the rest
.t Rothschilds

[Anonymous No.]

>>19139364
Taking over the planet is borderline impossible, if we're going to be bringing reality into it. The best Yukari can hope for is to simply extend the barrier around the entire japanese archipelago. And even that would almost certainly fail.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19139793
It's possible if Yukari's playing the long game and rather than try taking over directly, she'll get a world war started by, iunno, falseflagging nuclear attacks since human security system probably can't account for magic fuckery.

She then can come when the dust settles and deal with whatever's left. Granted, there's probably not much left once she's done, and she probably has no reason to ever do it, but something like that wouldn't really put human attention on Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133257
Dark, but rarely grim.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19136904
What. Kasen is a hermit. Only humans can be hermits. She can't be a youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19134291
>Seriously, you can people can argue "It's in their nature!" and "They have different morality!" as much as you want. But until i find a superior code, i will continue to belief in human definitions of good and evil.
That's fine, but youkai aren't human. If you expect them to understand and respect the human moral code, you're an idiot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19139854
Starting a nuclear war might be a possibility. But even then, i don't think that's quite as easy as you would expect. And there are still several forces in the outside world that would put a end ot that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19140161
I don't expect them to understand it. But i do think it's possible to make them learn. And if they refuse to follow it even after learning,then they are evil.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19140816
*I don't expect them to understand it out of themselves. But i do think it's possible for them to learn. And if they still refuse to follow it even after learning, then they are evil creatures beyond redemption.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19140794
It won't be easy, but with mankind having made their own tool of self-extinction and with Yukari's ability just so happen to allow her easy access to them with a few months of planning to actually locate them, it would be the main card she can pull should she for some reasons decided to try taking over the world.

This is lowballing her hard by assuming that she only use capabilities that we are 100% sure she could do. Extensive planning on her part would be required and she can be stopped, but she does pose the threat to the world should she choose to pick this route. Since otherwise, she and Gensokyo really lacked any might to challenge the entire world and bluffing can only get you so far.

This also having the bonus of not putting too much attention on herself or Gensokyo if she is careful.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19140816
Inquisitor pls go and stay go

[Anonymous No.]

First, she will take control of the world, then, change it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19141304
okuu could probably act as a good nuclear bomb if you got her crazy and mad enough.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19141950
Only when Youkai stop acting like murderous sociopaths.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142175
its ok because they're cute girls

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142192
No. That just makes it worse actually. You expect cute girls to act like cute girls. Not like evil human flesh eating monsters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19141304
She does pose a threat to the world if she tried to start a nuclear war. But i somewhat doubt she would succeed. It would mostly depend on how powerful she actually is. And franky, we just don't know.

It's a pretty stupid idea either way though. Since even if she wins. Most life on earth is a uninhabitable wasteland incapable of supporting humans, let alone Youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142244
no it makes it much, much better, if they weren't cute girls I wouldn't like them, want to talk with them or k-kissu

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142099
Okuu is basically a walking sun though since shes effectively a yatagarasu, she could probably melt the whole damn planet if she tried. Really the thing saving everything is the fact shes fucking dumb.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142264
It doesn't make it better when if you try to talk with them, kiss them, or like them. They respond by murdering you and devouring your flesh.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142270
It's ok if you're someone youkai wouldn't eat, like me. Don't really care if they eat some hasty tasty outsiders, really.

[Anonymous No.]

Since the Yokais are litterally the lunarian equivalent of super ISIS made to genocide the humans and Gensokyo is litterally their last bastion on earth in which they plot to bring back the age of darkness the answer is that yokais are evil and should be genocided.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142351
Lumarians are assholes, if youkai are their ISIS then they're our heroes and deserve medals and fine jewelry to adorn their hats.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142303
Anon, you are a hasty tasty outsider. You are exactly the kind of person they would eat.

And even if that wasn't the case. Lack of empathy much?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142351
I still like to think they can find redemption. But i'll admit that is a very ideological emotion driven idea. From a pure self preservation pragmatic perspective, a viewpoint i do detest, Youkai genocide is the best option we have.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142351
>not breeding the asshole out of them, or breeding them to extinction.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142577
>or breeding them to extinction.
How can you breed immortal creatures to extinction?

[Anonymous No.]

They killed that crow!

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142618
She had it coming!

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142376

Anon, if yokais are ISIS lunarian are the fucking Saoudi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142470
>Lack of empathy
That is a positive trait, you know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19140828
>then they are evil creatures beyond redemption.
They are already that. Please stop applying human values to creatures that are clearly not.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142482

According to islam djinns and spirit can in fact find redemption and are also the children of God. Damn, yokais are even more ISIS than I thought.

>Islam's symbol is a moon crescent

It all makes sense from a lunarian psy-ops point of view.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19143463
Go back to sleep, Aya.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142265
I don't mean to ruin the fun you two (or perhaps more) are having, but power level discussions like these are almost entirely based on conjecture. We don't really know much about the full extent of what Yukari, Okuu, and others are capable of. Sticking to what we DO know is a good start:

Yukari is capable of "manipulating any border", possesses vast knowledge about many subjects, and can manipulate individuals with ease. The most impressive displays of Yukari's border manipulation powers that we are aware of, is either erecting or weakening barriers in between worlds, denying or granting passage to objects and people. Exactly how destructive these powers can be is anyone's guess, but she has used them in the past to transport thousands of youkai for a failed invasion of the lunar capital, and erecting the Great Hakurei Barrier.

Yukari's knowledge has only really been displayed for the purpose of controlling shikigami, or providing trivia. Her skill at manipulating and deceiving people has been put to use to steal from the lunar capital, and make others run her errands. We don't really see Yukari engaging in or caring much about the politics of Gensokyo, but it does seem like she has an ulterior motive of expanding its influence. However, if Yukari really had the power to manipulate the entire world, I find it unlikely that she would keep tending to her little youkai reservation, considering a few zashiki-warashi temporarily re-appearing in the outside world "a rare chance" (pic related).

And regarding Okuu, which your specific post was actually about. The major catch about Okuu's power is that someone has to keep supplying her with fusible atoms (presumably heavy hydrogen or helium), and the only person we know about who does just that is Kanako. And we don't even know how much of said atoms Kanako has access to. Furthermore, we have never seen Okuu use or test her power anywhere near the output levels where it could be considered a global threat. At most, she has stirred up heat comparable to a steel furnace in the Hell of Blazing Fires, and shot some glowing orbs which could be grazed by a human girl on a broom.

>>19142470
You don't even realize that the other anon is not taking you seriously, and just keeps pulling your leg, do you?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19143524

Why would Aya reveal the schemes of the luniggers ? Christianity was indeed doing God's work by slaying demons and the demons' enablers back in middle age.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19143529

I just want to fight an all out desperate 2 fronts war against the Japanese demon hordes and the lunarian space invasion in the name of human supremacy and the Lord.

Isn't it implied that the Lunarian are actually scared shitless of something even bigger than them in outter space though ? Will the elder eldritch gods with frilly hats help us in our war for survival ?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19135575
>The rest of earth will always remain in the hands of the people that deserve it, humanity.
Ho ho ho

[Anonymous No.]

>>19143651
>Isn't it implied that the Lunarian are actually scared shitless of something even bigger than them in outter space though?
Not that I can recall. They are, however, absolutely terrified of impurity in the Shinto/Buddhist sense, and all of that impurity stems from Earth. The Lunarians feel this fear for a good reason: their godlike existence and much of their technology is entirely dependent on staying clean of impurity. This is quite the Achilles heel, since impurity is very easy to introduce just by being close to anything that introduces the very concepts of life and/or death.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19142693
That's awful.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133257
It's like several different magical girl series where its cutesy shit on the surface and its grimderp the more you look into shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19143326
No. No it's not.

>>19143368
They don't have to be. Feel free to call that foolish or naive. But i'll keep on believing that it's possible, if only because the alternative is a complete genocide about a thousand years into the future by the outside world.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19143529
>You don't even realize that the other anon is not taking you seriously, and just keeps pulling your leg, do you?
Somewhat. But i tend to just play along for fun with such posts.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19143768
Santa Claus isn't going to take over the world either.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19145096
You sure?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19145933
No. Unless he happens to run a Tech Company in his free time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19143864

Why don't they just nuke the earth before (((they))) turn it into such an abominable pile of corruption even space can't protect them anymore ?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19146023
santa claus is in violaiton of GDPR

[Anonymous No.]

>>19149508
Because commiting genocide is an impure course of action.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19150852

And creating being of PURE corruption to prey on humans is not ? I also doubt that the earth of the dark age of yokais was even pure to begin with and it backfired hard when local crazy woman started assembling a giant army.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19143529
All conversations between Kasen and Yukari are just too puzzling for me.
I don't really understand what their goals are at all.
All I understand is that Kasen is pretty much pro-human, and yukari seems to be the opposite, pro-youkai.
But still their conversations confuse me.
For example how is Kasen supposedly leading sumireko to gensokyo in line with yukaris ideals?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133257
What is she eating?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19151483
A human head

[Anonymous No.]

>>19150912
Cause sumireko doing her shit tends to Fuck things up, and the longer she is in gensokyo the more the human world gets rest and the more shit humans tend to believe, which if that is turned to youkais...

[Anonymous No.]

>>19152014
>the more the human world gets rest and the more shit humans tend to believe, which if that is turned to youkais...
t. ESL

[Anonymous No.]

>>19150912
>For example how is Kasen supposedly leading sumireko to gensokyo in line with yukaris ideals?
Isn't the idea that Sumisumi would end up in Gensokyo no matter what and Kasen is just making sure she doesn't break anything?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19154652
Thats what I think Kasen actually does, but I think Yukari is implying that Kasen has an ulterior motive.
And somehow this motive yukari is imagining is in line with her 'ideals'.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19143529
>The major catch about Okuu's power is that someone has to keep supplying her with fusible atoms (presumably heavy hydrogen or helium)
She obviously uses the proton-proton chain reaction like our sun (with ordinary hydrogen from water). She can do this at a much smaller scale because of magic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19134332
When will tewi stop trying to manipulate everyone that she comes across?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19143864
In other words, just throw fairies at then until mortality kicks in.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19156994
Yep

[Anonymous No.]

>>19156994
LoLK in a nutshell

[Anonymous No.]

>>19157509
Was Junko right all along?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19156994
thats quite literally what Junko and Hecatia did tho, its not their fault faeries don't got enough pull on the moon to fight off reimu and co.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19158121
Hm

[Anonymous No.]

>>19158017
Yes

[Anonymous No.]

>>19159412
Their plan ultimately wasn't bad, their problem was none of them apparently could deal with Reimu and co. They did canonically lose LoLK, and that seems to be why Hecatia is ok with keeping ClownPiece under Reimu's house to keep an eye on shit in Gensokyo it seems like.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19163564
We learned some major new stuff about this in the most recent chapter of VFiS, possibly even foreshadowing the next story arc.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19164601

[Anonymous No.]

>>19164606

[Anonymous No.]

>>19164601
K

[Anonymous No.]

>>19170267
No

[Anonymous No.]

>>19173347
Yes

[Anonymous No.]

Ask not "Why kill the Youkai" Ask rather "why not?".

[Anonymous No.]

>>19164610
Honestly reading this it seems like shit is going down in hell and she damn sure does not want reimu and co to interfere, cause as they learned in LOLK there's enough firepower to deal with whatever is going on and them being involved might be inconvienient.

[Anonymous No.]

Bump

[Anonymous No.]

>>19178682
fuck off back to /vg/

[Anonymous No.]

Touhou is as grimdark as you want it to be grimdark. It's open to a wide variety of interpretations, some very negative. I would personally say it isn't Grimdark simply because hope still exists that things might get better for humans. But that too is just a opinion.

[Anonymous No.]

Touhou isn't nearly as dark as its setting implies, and I think this is what bothers the moralfags the most (and me too to some extent, but I don't shit up threads complaining about it). We got this walled-off reservation full of cute girl-things who feed on humans, yet Reimu, Marisa and the others get along just fine with them, and ZUN never shows us the harsher reality behind it. Except for this one thing:

SoPM has an article written by Aya in 1983 (pic related), about an incident where Kisume crawled out of a well and started chucking human remains at some playing children. Yukari immediately appeared and pulled a Russian-style cover story, even denying that the bones were human remains at all, and later had the well filled with dirt. Considering how Yukari has acted at other occasions such as >>19143529, it seems that she maintains the balance of Gensokyo by telling lies, much like a benevolent dictator. The last thing she wants the humans of Gensokyo to realize is just how she keeps all the youkai fed, and what her grand goal is.

So there is at least a lore explanation for why the relationship between humans and youkai is maintainable. ZUN could be a bit more brave with the "behind the scenes", but from a pure storytelling-perspective there's a huge risk to that: we would probably not sympathize as much with the cute girls anymore. Also, as stated, it would make the setting a lot darker, and I suspect that ZUN wants to keep things relatively family-friendly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133257
No, because the dark elements have actual nuance and aren't immediately apparent on the surface level.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19134332

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133570
Inconsistencies in Zounose works? Like what?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19181242
>And I think this is what bothers the moralfags the most.
No, what bothers me is that most of the main characters don't seem to give a fuck. With Reimu being downright complicit in most of it by sheer virtue of the importance of her position. It's like watching a story set in the USSR from the perspective of members of the communist party. At best, i don't care what happens to these people. At worst, i want them all to die.

Like, i don't find the Youkai cast sympathetic. But i don't need to like them in such a way to appreciate them as characters, same for somebody like Sakuya. But the main characters are a different story.

>The last thing she wants the humans of Gensokyo to realize is just how she keeps all the youkai fed, and what her grand goal is.
It's not just those two things. A cage is only a cage if you realize it's a cage. While the human villagers do know that they are trapped in Gensokyo, and that their society has been infiltrated by Youkai. They don't seem to know just how trapped they are, and that they only exist for the sake of Youkai existing. Probably because the entire town would collapse in a massive despair event horizon if they found out.

>we would probably not sympathize as much with the cute girls anymore. Also, as stated, it would make the setting a lot darker, and I suspect that ZUN wants to keep things relatively family-friendly.
I'm pretty sure he said that flat out in a interview at some point. Regardless, i can understand why he would do that, yet i still find it somewhat cowardly. It's not like most low level Youkai can be blamed anyway. They wouldn't be eating outsiders if Yukari didn't make sure there were outsiders to eat.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19182740
shut the fuck up bitch

[Anonymous No.]

>>19182740
Touhou is a much more metaphorical setting than a literal one, so you should be careful in taking everything in a literal sense.

For example Reimu.
A (real) shrine maidens job is to promote spirituality and religion, while warding off "evil".
Those evils are naturally just superstitions, which would best be fought by just stopping to believe them.
So there is a contradiction in a shrine maidens purpose, as you can see.
This is reimus position in this whole story.

Why does she act all chummy with all the youkai then?
Because fun things are fun, and sometimes not everything should be taken too seriously.
Touhou is not a grimdark work after all. It just has a pretty deep reaching foundation.

We don't know how many people actually DO get eaten, or if most Youkai even do eat them at all, or if just the believe of humans that they could be eaten is enough to sustain the Youkai.
A lot of it is rather unclear (at least to me).
The fact though is that the Youkai need the humans to survive.

As for how the story will progress, I think Kasen will probably play a major role in the future, her being an "ally of heaven", after all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19182850
How rude! You were the one talking about me.

>>19183180
I think you mean that Touhou is very ambiguous setting, not metaphorical. And i do agree to a certain extent that a lot of it is unclear. But there is still enough dark shit that it does seriously bug me that main characters just don't seem to give a fuck. People might literally be getting systematically abducted and killed by Yukari, yet Reimu doesn't exactly treat her like a possible mass murderer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19182740
Oh hey, it's the 2tough4us WH40kfag from a while back. Still mad that Gensokyo isn't so black and white, I see.

>>19183372
No, he means metaphorical dumbass.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19183372
get lost retard, stop making threads on our board kudasai

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184103
>Still mad that Gensokyo isn't so black and white, I see.
Still completely misunderstanding my arguments, i see.

>No, he means metaphorical dumbass.
Then i'm not sure if he knows what metaphor means. Because what he described sounds like he meant ambiguous.

>>19184114
I don't even make threads on this board.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184145
Youkai need fulfill their role to exist. Kogasa only needs to scare humans others might need to eat humans to exist, please explain to me how can humans and youkai coexist without fear and belief, why should humans survive and youkais die just because of human morals? Is it wrong to harm another species when it's required for your survival? Also youkai are know to be able to survive without eating for years Rinnosuke mostly drinks tea and he's only half youkai.
Most of your points are just speculation why do I even bother with such obvious bait.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184248
he repeats the same talking points the same points and anything you could say to him has already been said 100 times. he derailed an entire thread before arguing the same shit you're arguing with him now and he has admitted he crossboards from /vg/ and posts stupid shit on purpose

how is this fun? stop responding.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19183372
shut up bitch

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184248
>please explain to me how can humans and youkai coexist without fear and belief
Byakuren seems to have a solution that, at least to a certain extent, does seem to work. And while it's true that Youkai do need fear and belief to survive. It's NEVER been said they need to eat human flesh to survive. And even if they did, there is no reason why they can't simply feed on corpses.

>why should humans survive and youkais die just because of human morals?
I'm not saying they should. I think Youkai deserve a chance at redemption/rehabilitation. I find it hard to sympathize with Youkai. And from a pure pragmatic darwinistic perspective, the only viewpoint you have left if you ignore human morality, there is no reason to argue in favor of Youkai surviving. But i don't want them all to go extinct.

>Is it wrong to harm another.
If you want to know the answer to that question. Then go online and look up a video of a actual murder being commited. Look carefully at the expression of the person being murdered, and then draw your own conclusion.

>Also youkai are know to be able to survive without eating for years Rinnosuke mostly drinks tea and he's only half youkai.
Murder is still murder. You can't say it's okay because they "Only sometimes murder people".

>Most of your points are just speculation
Eh. Some of them are, i'll freely admit that. But i don't think any of the points i made in this post are speculation.

>why do I even bother with such obvious bait.
Because you know it's my genuine opinion and not bait?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184257
I'm not nearly as repetitive as you people often think i am. And there have been arguments that have genuinely convinced me to change my mind. If you keep making the same counterarguments over and over again without any effect. Then maybe that's just because i don't agree with them.

>>19184262
How rude! Also, i'm not a female dog.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19183372
I haven't replied to you yet, if you are referring to >>19181242 which I wrote. Never assume who you're talking to on anonymous image boards.

Oh and while I have strong political views in real life, especially regarding empathy for others, 2hu is a work of fiction. I don't really care that much as long as I'm enjoying it. Pic related.

[Anonymous No.]

What if Yukari only fed youkai condemned criminals? That would make everyone happy!

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184438
>Never assume who you're talking to on anonymous image boards.
Yeah, sorry about that.

>Oh and while I have strong political views in real life, especially regarding empathy for others, 2hu is a work of fiction. I don't really care that much as long as I'm enjoying it
I can understand that. And to some extent i feel the same way about Touhou. Like i said, my problem isn't that the story with my ideological. It's just that the main characters often come across as terrible, unsympathetic, horrible people. Even that would be fine if they were at least straight up villain protagonists. But they aren't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184451
>What if Yukari only fed youkai condemned criminals?
I'm generally against the death penalty. So i can't necessarily approve of that idea. Still, if she must steal somebody. Then stealing people on death row is the least evil way to go about it. Way better than abducting lost children and suicidal teenagers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184459
*Like i said, my problem isn't that the story has a different ideology than me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184459
You can complain about something once, then you have to find a way deal with it. If you keep complaining, you'll come off as that crybaby who nobody likes. This philosophy applies to many things in life. We all get it already, you don't like the main characters in Tohou. But most of us here do, so how are you going to deal with it?

Make us change our minds? That ain't happening, because obviously close to nobody here feels like you do about the characters. All these countless posts should be enough proof of that.

Mention once that you don't like it, defend that point, then go somewhere else and actually spend time on something you like? Now that sounds like a constructive way to spend time for everyone involved.

Keep complaining about it and making shitty threads? Well congratulations, keep fighting each other forever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184459
You can complain about something once, then you have to find a way to deal with it. If you keep complaining, you'll come off as that crybaby who nobody likes. This philosophy applies to many things in life. We all get it already, you don't like the main characters in Tohou. But most of us here do, so how are you going to deal with it?

Make us change our minds? That ain't happening, because obviously close to nobody here feels like you do about the characters. All these countless posts should be enough proof of that.

Mention once that you don't like it, defend that point, then go somewhere else and actually spend time on something you like? Now that sounds like a constructive way to spend time for everyone involved.

Keep complaining about it and making shitty threads? Well congratulations, keep fighting each other forever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184375
Yukari is disliked because people think that hurting another person without their consent or willingness is wrong universally. Which is a very privileged and ignorant way to think.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184438
t. SJW

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184626
>You can complain about something once, then you have to find a way to deal with it.
No, actually. You can complain about something multiple times. Especially when people just don't seem to get the complaint.

As for what i'm going to do about it, nothing. I don't make threads on this board, and i don't spend every waking hour looking for places to complain. I only bring it up when i think it's appropriate to bring up. Which isn't actually that often. And outside of that, i don't even really complain about anything. Me thinking Gensokyo is a bad place isn't a complaint, it's a way i view the setting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184969
>Which is a very privileged and ignorant way to think.
....No. It's really not. Even poor, unprivileged people living in slums think it's wrong to hurt or kill somebody without a consent. And how the hell is it ignorant?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19186295
>No, actually. You can complain about something multiple times. Especially when people just don't seem to get the complaint.
You wouldn't believe the number of times I've listened to people who can't tell the difference between others not understanding them, and others simply not agreeing with them. Enjoy your kuso thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19186313
We should all be like Albert Fish.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19184375

>Byakuren seems to have a solution
I'm sorry but what solution? I don't know much about Byakuren but I'm pretty sure she only teaches Buddhism.

> It's NEVER been said they need to eat human flesh to survive.
Man eating youkai have to fill their role has man eating youkai not corpse eating youkai.

>I think Youkai deserve a chance at redemption/rehabilitation.
How do you know that's possible? And how do they archive that without losing species of youkai?

No asnwer to the question.

>Murder is still murder.

They eat only what they need or maybe they don't, we don't know. Most of the people who end up in Gensokyo are forgotten people who barely make a difference. Of course every life is important but what's worse letting all man eating youkai die and save a few humans or killing a few humans and letting man eating youkai live? There's no easy black or white answer.

>Because you know it's my genuine opinion and not bait?
It's bait anyone can see it, I'm just giving you attention because I'm retarded and this thread is shit anyways.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19186785
There have been plenty of cases when people get my argument, and still don't agree with me. There have also been plenty of times when people don't get my argument, as shown on this very thread. It's not just one or the other.

>>19186786
No.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19186843
>I'm sorry but what solution?
Changing the nature of Youkai through buddhism. In the same way Shou went from a Tiger Youkai to a avatar of Bishamonten.

>Man eating youkai have to fill their role has man eating youkai not corpse eating youkai.
It doesn't work that way. Eating humans has never been described as a need for Youkai, just a want. What matters is that people are afraid of them. And even that is technically not completely true.

>How do you know that's possible?
Because a few Youkai already HAVE changed their nature. And the entire universe relies on a clap your hands if you belief kind of system. Youkai only are the way they are because people believe them to be that way. If humans believed them to be harmless, they would be harmless.

>There's no easy black or white answer.
I agree. Which is why i argue in favor of Youkai having a shot at redemption. To murder somebody for your survival is a cruel necessity. But to keep murdering people, without at least trying to look for a alternate solution, that is evil.

>It's bait anyone can see it
I don't even think you believe that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19189167
(Same guy)
>To murder somebody for your survival is a cruel necessity.
I should add, again, that i don't think Youkai actually need to murder to survive. I still view it as not black and white because most Youkai just don't know any better.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19189167
>It doesn't work that way.
There's plenty of tales where youkais are man eating monsters for that exact same purpose.

>Changing the nature of Youkai through buddhism. In the same way Shou went from a Tiger Youkai to a avatar of Bishamonten.
>Because a few Youkai already HAVE changed their nature. And the entire universe relies on a clap your hands if you belief kind of system. Youkai only are the way they are because people believe them to be that way. If humans believed them to be harmless, they would be harmless.
Gensokyo may give them more room to move their ambitions but changing a youkai's role can be risky and takes time it could change their personality and maybe even kill them in the process due to not enough strong belief. It's not as easy as you think, especially for such a big number of them and without humans noticing.
It definitely doesn't rely on a clap your hands if you belief kind of system, or else we would see more youkai's with weak roles.

>But to keep murdering people, without at least trying to look for a alternate solution, that is evil.
If they could live without humanity they probrably would done that already.

>I don't even think you believe that.
Very formulaic replies.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19189805
>There's plenty of tales where youkais are man eating monsters for that exact same purpose.
That could be true, i don't know one way or another. But in Touhou, that's not the case. It's never been described as a need. If i'm wrong about this, show me.

>It's not as easy as you think, especially for such a big number of them and without humans noticing.
I don't care if it's not easy. That's no excuse.

>It definitely doesn't rely on a clap your hands if you belief kind of system
The nature of a Youkai explicitly depends on what humans think they are. That's something that been repeatedly mentioned in print works.

>If they could live without humanity they probably would done that already.
Not necessarily. Like you said, it's hard. A Youkai like Yukari might just prefer abducting thousands of innocent people to die rather than try and find a way to live without humanity.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19189872
>It's never been described as a need. If i'm wrong about this, show me.
If I'm not wrong Yamabikos need to do their job so that they don't lose their identity the same thing can be said about man eating youkai. Belief is not always enough.

>The nature of a Youkai explicitly depends on what humans think they are. That's something that been repeatedly mentioned in print works
Indeed, but it' isn't as straight forward and easy as you think. From what we know youkai need a solid indetity a role and strong belief or else they only die due to lack ofa strong identity. It's the same reason why we don't see a remote hiding youkai.

>than try and find a way to live without humanity.
I don't know if you notice but Gensokyo is a very small space. A last resort.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19189984
>If I'm not wrong Yamabikos need to do their job so that they don't lose their identity the same thing can be said about man eating youkai.
It's not about losing their identity, it's about losing their purpose in life. And either way, Kyouko's existence also makes it clear that they can find a new purpose. A man eating Youkai could turn into a corpse eating Youkai.

>Indeed, but it' isn't as straightforward and easy as you think.
Again. I know it's not easy, but that's no excuse when the only alternative is murdering innocent people forever.

>I don't know if you notice but Gensokyo is a very small space. A last resort.
And? I don't see what that has to do with anything.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19190035
>Kyouko's existence also makes it clear that they can find a new purpose.
Kyouko is a yamabiko with the same purpose as others Yamabikos, she also has other ambitions due to Gensokyo giving youkai a little bit more room to move around. The kappas still need fear

>Again. I know it's not easy, but that's no excuse when the only alternative is murdering innocent people forever.
That's just speculation we don't know if that's possible. Shou is just an exception to the rule. The change still took a while to fully workout in her favor and tiger fear isn't a very solid concept when compared to tengus, kappas and even satoris, which might have helped her to change. We don't know enough to speculate on this type of stuff.

>And? I don't see what that has to do with anything.
A last option. Youkai are weak beings with limited options.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19190095
>The kappas still need fear
If it's just fear they need. There are ways of getting that without killing anybody. If only because the human villagers don't need to know they don't kill anybody.

>We don't know enough to speculate on this type of stuff.
We absolutely know enough to speculate about type of stuff. We just don't know enough to draw a definitive conclusion. Especially since it's also just inconsistent as fuck.

If you think that Youkai can't change, or at least that it's nigh on impossible. Then fine, i can't force you to accept my beliefs. But i do think it's possible. And that they should, at all cost, attempt to change their own nature.

>A last option.
I don't think it's the last option they had left. It's just the one people like Yukari and Okina thought worked best. Something i strongly disagree with.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19190313
Kappas don't normally kill humans they are an example of youkai with various ambitions.

>Especially since it's also just inconsistent as fuck.
The rule of how youkai work have been pretty consistent we just don't know enough details.

>Something i strongly disagree with.
How do you know there was something better? How do you know how much time they had to come up with a plan? What do you know others don't? It's just more speculation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19190515
>The rule of how youkai work have been pretty consistent
No they haven't. At first, they only needed belief ot survive. Then PMISS "revealed" they need conflict to survive, which could be provided by fake abductions and exterminations. Then it switched to either "Sense of purpose" or "Fear", depending on what ZUN felt like that day.

>How do you know there was something better?
For the same reasons why i think Youkai can find redemption.

>How do you know how much time they had to come up with a plan?
That's a valid point. But they also been more than a hundred years since the barrier was created. That's more than enough time to come up with a better plan.

>It's just more speculation.
What's the problem with speculating? The reason why ZUN is so reluctant to tell information is because he wants people to speculate, and come up with their own interpretations of Gensokyo.

Although i would argue that the idea that Youkai can be redeemed is more or less a fact. That's the whole reason why Myouren was even introduced.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192002
>No they haven't.
None of those things contradict each other it's just more details to take into consideration.

>That's the whole reason why Myouren was even introduced.
It was introduced for religious conflict. Byakuren sometimes even refuses to accept youkai.

>What's the problem with speculating?
Nothing wrong with, it but your speculating against the core elements of what makes the setting unique.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192002
So you think Yukari can ‘redeem’ herself?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192411
No. I'm speculating against the core elements of what YOU think makes the setting unique. Look, you seem like a nice enough guy. So, i don't want to be too harsh. But that whole argument reeks of this stupid mentality where you aren't allowed to like something in more than one way.

My version of Gensokyo is one were Youkai are bad but can be redeemed, Yukari is a irredeemably evil monster, and humans are oppressed. You can dislike that version. But don't act like it's any more or less valid than whatever your version is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192478
She's probably too far gone. Unless she's loses her power, her position, and her allies/friends. I don't think redemption is a possibility.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192484
Not the guy you are replying to, but
>My version of Gensokyo
Who the hell cares about your version?
Stop being so self-obsessed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192484
>>19192488
I just realized these two posts kind of contradict each other. So, i'll make myself more clear. Youkai on a whole can find redemption. Some individuals, like Yukari, are probably just simply too far gone.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192498
>Who the hell cares about your version?
More people than you would expect. Believe me, i would like nothing more than for people not to care about my version.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192484
It's a fact that the one of the core elements is conflict between humans and youkai and the opression of humans.
I don't have a version of Gensokyo but your ideas are based on nothing and go completely against the setting I really recommend you find other series that are more black and white and flavourless.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192550
>It's a fact that the one of the core elements is conflict between humans and youkai and the oppression of humans.
I find both of those things intriguing. I like them as plot elements, even if i do want them to end.

>but your ideas are based on nothing
They are based on something. Even if you don't agree with me. Don't try to pretend i just came up with everything.

>I really recommend you find other series that are more black and white and flavourless.
Touhou is black and white. The white characters just aren't all that important.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192598
Your idea of redemption is based on one Youkai. Your posts show just how much you speculate.

Most of the characters fall on grey not black or white. No matter how much you dislike Reimu she still helps humans a lot and has character flaws.
Which characters are white?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192529
> i would like nothing more than for people not to care about my version.
Then stop posting about it you self-obsessed fuck.
If you aren't Zun then we don't care about "your" Gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192631
>Your idea of redemption is based on one Youkai.
No. It's based on a theme best personified by one Youkai. Other Youkai have also changed their nature.

>Your posts show just how much you speculate.
I speculate based on canon information. Like everybody else does.

>No matter how much you dislike Reimu she still helps humans a lot and has character flaws.
She doesn't "help" humans. If she wanted to help humans, she would break the barrier and free them all. She protects them because it's her job. And it's her job because Yukari doesn't want to lose her golden goose.

>Which characters are white?
Keine. Mokou, at least in the present. Sanae. Marisa. Most human villagers and outsiders. Shou. Aunn. A few minor Youkai are basically harmless and good natured. And while both are more Grey than White, Miko and Byakuren are well intentioned people that clearly care about making the world a better place.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192735
EVERYBODY posts about their version of Gensokyo. Be it people making doujins, or losers hanging out on waifu threads. If i'm self absorbed, then 99% of Touhou fans are self absorbed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193019
>EVERYBODY posts about their version of Gensokyo
No. people try to figure out what ZUNs gensokyo is really like. They do this via communication, and sharing ideas.
Sometimes they do share their headcanon and it can be interesting, but in the end, any sane non-self absorbed poster won't be adamant about their headcanon.
After all it's just in THEIR head, and not in ZUNs.
Even in most touhou doujin works, you will see people stating quite clearly, that this is not the real thing, and isn't supposed to be.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193015
>Other Youkai have also changed their nature.
Can you give me some examples?

>Like everybody else does.
The thing is you present your speculation as a fact.

Keine and Mokou are a good example but Mokou still has a good amount of character flaws. Sanae just mostly cares about the shrine. Marisa isn't an angel but just like Reimu helps the village a lot. Byakuren is more of a jerk and Miko has some questionable ideas, Shou just cares about Byakuren and Aunn is filling her role.
Reimu also helps schools and it's implied she helps humans get better after youkai attacks.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193015
> If she wanted to help humans, she would break the barrier and free them all.
That just goes completely against the setting and how do you know she can do that?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193164
>No. people try to figure out what ZUNs gensokyo is really like. They do this via communication, and sharing ideas.
That's what i do as well. I might have a somewhat more negative view of Gensokyo. But one nonetheless still formed by the games and print works.

>but in the end, any sane non-self absorbed poster won't be adamant about their headcanon.
Yes. That's why i don't often post headcanons, but theories and opinions based on what i and other people think is canon.

>>19193247
>Can you give me some examples?
Kyouko. The Tengu. Kasen(If she really is a Oni). Sekibanki. Nemuno.

>The thing is you present your speculation as a fact.
Most of the time, i do not. I've been repeatedly saying that this is my opinion. That it's fine if you think differently. And that Touhou is ambiguous and open to interpretation. The only things i argue are facts are things repeatedly mentioned in print works/games. If you want to claim "unreliable narrator", that's fine. But i like to believe that not everything is a lie.

>Sanae just mostly cares about the shrine.
Eh, somewhat. But she does still clearly care about other humans.

>Marisa isn't an angel but just like Reimu helps the village a lot.
Marisa helps the villagers because she does genuinely seem to care about humanity. Reimu seems to mostly just do it because it's her job.

>Shou just cares about Byakuren
And Bishamonten. Who is generally viewed as a mostly benevolent god.

>Reimu also helps schools and it's implied she helps humans get better after youkai attacks.
Reimu does help people. But that's because her job is to be a balancer. And the only ones that actually benefit from that balance are Youkai. Reimu seems to know this, yet still does her job anyway. Because she doesn't actually care about anybody expect herself and maybe Marisa.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193375
shut up bitch

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193262
>That just goes completely against the setting
And? If Reimu genuinely cared about humans. She wouldn't care about Gensokyo. Humans do not benefit from Gensokyo existing.

>and how do you know she can do that?
The Hakurei Shrine maidens manage the barrier. If anybody knows how to turn it off, it's them. And even if that's not possible, Reimu is strong enough that they should be able to just blow it up. Or find a different way to dismantle it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193381
How rude! Also, still not a female dog.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193375
*Because i don't think she actually cares about anybody expect herself and maybe Marisa.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193396
>How rude!
You say it like that’s a bad thing

[Anonymous No.]

Humanity Fuck Yeah! Is a stupid mentality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193516
Humanity Fuck Yeah! Is the only good mentality to have if you're a human.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193375
>Reimu seems to mostly just do it because it's her job.
Reimu has gone out of her way to help humans.

>Kyouko. The Tengu. Kasen(If she really is a Oni). Sekibanki. Nemuno.
Kyouko hasn't changed neither have the tengu Sekibanki or Nemuno.
Kasen is a oni hermit, they don't contradict each other even tho hermit can be considered a species.

>>19193391
More baseless speculation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193516
Fuck off youkai

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193391
>Humans do not benefit from Gensokyo existing.
Thank you Captain Obvious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193554
>Reimu has gone out of her way to help humans.
Again, because it's her job to help native humans. And to kick outsiders out of Gensokyo.

>Kyouko hasn't changed neither have the tengu Sekibanki or Nemuno.
Kyouko has changed, otherwise she would have died. The Tengu changing was mentioned in Symposium. If Sekibanki really was a Dullahan, then she's definitely changed. And Yamanba's traditionally eat lost children, not raise them. And Kasen doesn't really act like any traditional depiction of a Oni.

>More baseless speculation.
Speculation, yes. But not baseless, i explained my base. Reimu manages the Hakurei Barrier, and is really strong. Both of those things have been mentioned in print works.

And humans not benefiting from Gensokyo is a fact. It's a net positive for almost every human on earth if Gensokyo was destroyed, and Youkai went extinct.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193604
You'll be surprised how view people seem to get this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193614
*You'll be surprised how few people seem to get this.

[Anonymous No.]

Why doesn’t Reimu just go full 1488and shove all the demons into an oven?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193713
Because she's a filthy Youkai collorabteur benefiting from her privileged position as balancer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193609
>Again, because it's her job to
So if I work on a field that I like I don't really care about the field because I work on it? You know a shrine maiden is replaceable right?

Kyouko still fills her role as a yamabiko but she's also a monk that's it.

>The Tengu changing was mentioned in Symposium
Can't recall anything like that but it's most likely just Gensokyo giving youkai more room to move, can you give the article?

>If Sekibanki really was a Dullahan, then she's definitely changed.
She's a rokurokubi we don't know why ZUN gave her so many abilities but Miko also isn't a boy.

>And Kasen doesn't really act like any traditional depiction of a Oni.
She does it's obvious. She's just has a different personality.

>And Yamanba's traditionally eat lost children, not raise them.
Can just be a different interpretation from ZUN that still kind of warns about the dangers of mountains.

>Speculation
We barely see Reimu do any border related stuff outside of her urban legend.

>You'll be surprised how few people seem to get this.
Anybody who isn't stupid knows it. It's of the core elements of the setting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193604
Technically, they (indirectly) benefit from the lack of blood-sucking vampires in the regular world.

[Anonymous No.]

acting like retards for years ends up attracting shitposters from other boards who think people unironically want to hear their stupid shit

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193788
>You know a shrine maiden is replaceable right?
It's hard to say how replaceable Reimu is. And quitting her job means giving up a lot of privileges. Could you really see Reimu working in the human village as a farmer or a wife?

>can you give the article?
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_3
This same article also makes it clear that Youkai can change on their own, without human imagination changing them. Which is just more proof that redemption is possible.

>She's just has a different personality.
And a completely different lifestyle. She acts nothing like other Oni, even the Touhou version.

>Can just be a different interpretation from ZUN
Maybe. Expect that the other interpretation explicitly exists in-universe.

>We barely see Reimu do any border related stuff
She still does it though. It being part of her job has been mentioned repeatedly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193796
But if Gensokyo didn't exist. Then Vampires would have been wiped out anyway. And people are still abducted to feed the scarlet sisters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193788
>>19193843
reimu "unsealing" patchy's books is border manipulation

[Anonymous No.]

Reminder that the outside world will eventually discover Gensokyo. Use technology to break open the barrier. And then utterly exterminate all Youkai, finally liberating the human villagers from their oppressors. Evil will never win forever. Youkai are doomed to go extinct. And the greatness of Humanity and science will always triumph in the end!

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193843
>Could you really see Reimu working in the human village as a farmer
Yes, she would still be pretty lazy and laid back.

>She acts nothing like other Oni, even the Touhou version.
More room to move around. But it's still painfully obvious she's one.

>It being part of her job has been mentioned repeatedly.
We have no more details.

>Expect that the other interpretation explicitly exists in-universe.
Has this been confirmed?

>This same article also makes it clear that Youkai can change on their own, without human imagination changing them. Which is just more proof that redemption is possible.
It talks about the natural evolution of tales. And the translation of the "youkai were liberated from the spell of human imagination and obtained true freedom." line means that they have more room to develop. That' s the reason why kappa are engineers.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193955
>Yes, she would still be pretty lazy and laid back.
Considering her personality, i think she would be utterly miserable having to so much hard work. Working as a farmer in a pre industrial society is fucking rough.

>We have no more details.
We don't need more details. Like i said, it's possible that there is no off switch. But there are others ways she might be able to break it open. It clearly isn't impossible.

>Has this been confirmed?
Yes. Read her character profile.

>And the translation of the "youkai were liberated from the spell of human imagination and obtained true freedom." line means that they have more room to develop.
That's what i'm saying. They have more room to develop, become more than what they are, and ultimately find redemption and a place in the modern world. It's not impossible, it's never been portrayed as imposible in Touhou. That's why i don't think it's grimdark, even in a world run by people like Yukari, there is still hope for change.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193991
>We don't need more details.
We do need more details. It' barrier created by strong youkais and a dragon.

>That's what i'm saying.
It's not. You want youkai to completely change their ways , Gensokyo just gives them more room not complete freedom.

>Yes. Read her character profile.
"But in reality, it seems that they often send lost adults back with a warning, and take custody of lost children, who they raise into upstanding human beings. The reason for this is unknown."
But in reality. It's obviously a different interpretation of the species

[Anonymous No.]

>>19194108
>We do need more details.
It would be nice, sure. But we already know enough to conclude that it can be destroyed.

>Gensokyo just gives them more room not complete freedom.
According to that article, they already have "true freedom". They can completely change their ways without any consequences.

>But in reality. It's obviously a different interpretation of the species
Indeed. But the idea that they eat children/travelers does exist. Which, going by what's been established in Symposium, means they actually did eat children/travelers once upon a time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19194181
>But we already know enough to conclude that it can be destroyed.
We know the most basic stuff and nothing more.

>They can completely change their ways without any consequences.
The line refers to their appearance.


>actually did eat children/travelers once upon a time.
"But in reality"

[Anonymous No.]

>>19192488
Why do you hate Yukari so much? She used to be Maribel.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133257
Definitely not

[Anonymous No.]

>>19195130
>We know the most basic stuff and nothing more.
Every Time there was a risk of it being destroyed. Everybody took it pretty seriously.

>The line refers to their appearance.
No. They can change their behavior and personality as well.

>"But in reality"
They don't eat children anymore because they aren't tied to human imagination anymore.

>>19195494
Because she's a mass murdering sociopath that spirits people away to Gensokyo to die. Is strongly implied to abduct people, including children, she finds interesting for her own amusement. Before killing and eating them once she gets bored of them. And is one of the main reason why the human villagers are oppressed. Spying on them constantly, presumably with the intention of removing any would be troublemakers. If she really is Maribel, then whatever humanity and decency she once had disappeared long ago. She's living proof that, at least in Touhou, Youkai are still the real monsters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19199481
>If she really is Maribel, then whatever humanity and decency she once had disappeared long ago.
Are you entirely sure about that?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19202486
Yes. In fact, if she knew what kind of a monster she would become. She would ask me to put down her future self.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19205122
cold

[Anonymous No.]

>>19199481
Go read her profile it never talks about a time were they it children it just says they actually raise them.

The line refers to their appearance but Gebsokyo gives them more room move they still have to fill their role.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19134291
>worthless, cruel, and ultimately self destructive
Sounds like human nature!

[Anonymous No.]

>>19193516
>>19193533
>>19193601
Humanity Fuck Yeah is a Mental Disease.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19208532
Misanthropy is a mental disease

[Anonymous No.]

>>19208221
Yes. But deserved. If you knew that you would become a monster as evil and cruel as Yukari. You would rather be dead as well.

>>19208377
> Gebsokyo gives them more room move they still have to fill their role.
I get that. But again, going by the rules established in Symposium. Once upon a time, if people believed they ate children. They would eat children.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19208458
Humans are one of the few living things capable of empathy. Meanwhile, our depths of depravity aren't any higher or lower than other animals. And compared to your average Youkai, most humans are saints.

>>19209028
It's also something only humans are capable of doing. No other animal is even capable of misanthropy.

[Anonymous No.]

I thought you all were joking about moralfag.
This faggot is absolutely braindead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19209180
You have the wrong idea of belief in Touhou. Belief is the reality. Changing reality isn't as easy as you think it can take a lot of time or be unnatural and end up wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19209192
>Youkai, most humans are saints.
Haven't we talked about this already? It's their nature, it's the reason they are alive.
Obviously they aren't good creatures but that's the point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19212526
>Changing reality isn't as easy as you think it can take a lot of time or be unnatural and end up wrong.
Do you have any example of that? Most Youkai that changed their nature because of belief seemed to have ended up pretty well.

>>19212542
We have talked about this. And i've stated, again and again, that they are capable of change. That them being capable of change is supported by the lore. And that change would be a good thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19214103
>by the lore.
It's not supported by the lore. They only changed their appearance a have more room to move.

>Most Youkai that changed their nature
Shou is the only example, the other ones haven't changed their nature.

You're just ignoring facts.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19214258
>They only changed their appearance a have more room to move.
They don't have "more room to move". As long as humans still fear them, which isn't very hard, they essentially have unlimited room to move. This isn't obscure information either, it was made perfectly clear in both Symposium and PMISS.

>The other ones haven't changed their nature.
But they have changed. The fact that the Youkai of Gensokyo act differently than how Youkai used to act has been mentioned repeatedly in almost every print work.

>You're just ignoring facts.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

[Anonymous No.]

classic moralfaggot at it again

[Anonymous No.]

>>19214729
>Thinking Youkai can be redeemed.
>Moralfaggot.
What are you trying to achieve here? Do you want me to say "All Youkai deserve death!"? Because if it keeps people like you far away from me. I can do that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19214684
>They don't have "more room to move".
They do, how are kappas engenieers then?

>they essentially have unlimited room to move.
They don't since they have to still fulfill their role.

>But they have changed. The fact that the Youkai of Gensokyo act differently than how Youkai used to act has been mentioned repeatedly in almost every print work.
Because they have more choices but not complete freedom.

Reread the tengu article.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19215121
>They don't since they have to still fulfill their role.
Yes. That's what i said, as long as they still inspire fear in the Human Villagers, they can do whatever they want.

>Because they have more choices but not complete freedom.
>Reread the tengu article.
>That's right. I wasn't here at the time so I don't know how this came about(*5), but when Gensokyo entered its current state, youkai were liberated from the spell of human imagination and obtained true freedom.
That sounds like they've completed freedom. At least complete freedom in the way humans still have complete freedom, but still have to eat.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19215759
Context my dude, they are talking about physical appearance. Why would youkai protect humans if they only need to eat them? Why not just import some from the Outside world? Why would Kyouko respond to people if she doesn't need to?

[Anonymous No.]

I'm going to make it into gensokyo then make all the pretty youkai my women!!

[Anonymous No.]

>>19215867
>Why would youkai protect humans if they only need to eat them?
Because they don't need to actually eat humans. They just need to be feared to survive. They can't do that if the entire town is dead.

>Why not just import some from the Outside world?
They still do that though.

>Why would Kyouko respond to people if she doesn't need to?
From her character profile.
>And by doing so, she now inspires fear as "a sutra-reciting voice coming from a mountain where no one is present", so she was able to retain her place as a youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19215924
Gensokyo isn't your personal playground. You would get eaten. And It would be painful.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19216012
When there's a will there's a way

[Anonymous No.]

>>19216021
Go ahead. Remove yourself from the genepool. Make a Youkai happy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19216050
I'll make them happy with my dick!

[Anonymous No.]

>>19216064
Technically, that's correct. Just not in a way that benefits you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19216007
It's definitely not just fear, she still respond to shouts.
"Youkai yamabiko dutifully reply whenever someone shouts at the mountains."
"She lives in the mountains, and when she hears a joyous voice, she replies back with a loud yell."
The sutra-reciting voice is a way to get attention.

[Anonymous No.]

Youkai apologisme and misanthropy are both clear signs of immaturity. Once you actually have a family of your own to protect and love. You'll quickly realize that Youkai genocide is the only way to secure a safe and happy future. And that the destruction of Gensokyo is not just a sad necessity, but a inevitability.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19220616
To be fair it is kinda cruel to the human inhabitants of gensokyo to be forced to adapt to modern society from the feudalesque period of life that is there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19220653
>Cruel.
Why? It might be a bit difficult at first, especially in a country like Japan. But it's not impossible to adapt to a new environment. And once they have adapted, they'll be way happier with their newfound freedom and technology. Happily living a materialistic life without having to worry about pleasing fickle gods or fearing Youkai.

And even if a few aren't capable of adapting somehow. I'm sure their children won't have any problem growing up in the outside world. As will any future generation.

[Anonymous No.]

What is the point of this thread?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19224867
Nothing.
It's a shitpost.
Made by moralfag. Moralfag is braindead. And a shitposter.

[Anonymous No.]

I love youkai.
I love Yukari.
I hope Yukari abducts me.
Yukari will rule this world one day, if she doesn't already.
Glory be.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19225055
Amen

[Anonymous No.]

>>19225013
>Made by moralfag.
I've said this before. But i had nothing to do with this thread being made.

>Moralfag is braindead.
Wrong.

>And a shitposter.
Is it just that hard to accept that this is my genuine opinion?

[Anonymous No.]

Youkai are bad.
Yukari is evil incarnate.
I weep for the countless people Yukari abducted.
I know she will one day be destroyed. And burn in hell for all eternity.
Humanity will rule forever!

[Anonymous No.]

>>19228414
Youkai have free will and can make their own choices
They can become good if they saw that it was possible without killing them

Yukari is probably a lost cause though

[Anonymous No.]

>>19236356
Moralfag at his best.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19236356
Yeah. I just can't see any way Yukari could be redeemed. Even if she really was Maribel, she's way too far gone.

>>19236447
Not me, actually. Also, again, what do you want me to say? That Youkai can't be redeemed and should all be put down?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19236636
You truly are the best of the best.

[Anonymous No.]

Sorry /jp/, he's gonna be your problem for a while

[Anonymous No.]

>>19238243
Nah. I intend to leave this thread for a while as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19239904
*Leave this board for a while.
Still going to be haunting this particular thread for a while.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19238243
can /vg/ please take this faggot back already, we don't want him

>>19228202
youve literally admitted multiple times to doing nothing but intentionally coming to our board to stir shit up and post circular arguments to derail threads so yes, you are the definition of a shitposter

[Anonymous No.]

>>19240295
>youve literally admitted multiple times to doing nothing but intentionally coming to our board to stir shit up and post circular arguments to derail threads
I've done nothing off the sort. I've ocassionaly shitposted on /vg/, although even that was months ago. But never on /jp/. You might be confusing me for somebody else.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19240349
you have, you retard, you think people arent aware of the shit you post on /vg/ as well? the posts highlighted in >>19133879 and other posts people have found on /vg/ in the previous thread you derailed talk about how you like to crossboard to shitpost and start fights in threads

fuck off and stop posting on this board

[Anonymous No.]

>>19240400
Yeah, okay. I did use to shitpost on waifu boards. I got bored of it pretty quickly though. And i've pretty much completely forgotten about it. So, my bad.

I should add though that i never go here to deliberately start fights. That just happens naturally, simply because you people can't handle my opinion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19240455
>i never go here to deliberately start fights. That just happens naturally, simply because you people can't handle my opinion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19240631
Believe what you want to believe. Like i said, i intend to leave this board anyway, at least for a while. So, you won't have to worry about me "shitposting".

[Anonymous No.]

>>19240455
>I should add though that i never go here to deliberately start fights. That just happens naturally, simply because you people can't handle my opinion.
Just grow some balls and say you are a shitposter, the thread is already fucked beyond belief. You repeat the same things constantly, based on almost nothing and refuse to take into consideration new information.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133257
Only if you let faggots like Zounose taint it with his retarded grimdark fetish.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19241122
>Just grow some balls and say you are a shitposter,
I'll freely admit that I have, in the past, posted things I don't believe in just for the sake of getting a reaction out of people. And that has included anger through obviously inflammatory posts. If you want to condemn me for that, then that is your right. However, this is disagree with:
>You repeat the same things constantly, based on almost nothing and refuse to take into consideration new information.
Simply because I 1: Don't constantly repeat the same few arguments, i do actually change it up. And even come up with new arguments. 2: Do base them on something. And 3: Have taken into consideration new information. Frequently even to the point of changing my mind. Just because I have shitposted in the past, does not mean that everything I post is a obviously lie designed to anger people. 90% of what I post is actually my genuine opinion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19144952
Is Touhou a mahjou shoujo series?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19247255
Technically, yes. But when it comes to actual content, theme, and character archetypes. It's really not anywhere near what people would call a traditional fantasy setting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19247852
*Traditional magical girl setting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19247255
No.

>>19247852
>Technically, yes.
You're a retard.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19250284
>You're a retard.
You can deny it all you want. But going by the usual definitions of the character and the genre, vague though those might be, Reimu is a magical girl.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19241291
Why do people call Zounose grimdark anyway? Sure, shit sucks in his version of Gensokyo and it's probably never going to get any better. But it's not like anybody seems to particularly give a shit. Most of the main characters all seem perfectly happy and content with the status quo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19250303
>But going by the usual definitions of the character and the genre
Yes, you're a retard, indeed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19250713
Touhou has literally one magical girl in it, you know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19250756
And you're literally retarded and don't know what a magical girl even is, you know.

[Anonymous No.]

Touhou is a grimderp setting. The background materials flat out state all kinds of horrible things, like humans being eaten and the Scarlet sisters being provided with humans to keep them happy.

This is never ever reflected in the games themselves, or even the manga. Eg you never see Rumia chow down on an outsider who randomly walked into Gensokyo. The setting is just cute girls doing cute things instead.

This is even poked fun of by ZUN, when Akyu notes with some puzzlement that outsider humans flee from ghosts but don’t appreciate the danger from other youkai. That’s because the outsiders can tell a ghost but otherwise youkai just look like cute waifus

Grimderp

[Anonymous No.]

>>19251110
That isn't Grimderp. Grimderp is when you take those elements and make them stupidly dramatic and over the top. ZUN doesn't do that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19251238

It’s grim and derpy at the same time. 1d4-chan doesn’t have a monopoly on the word grimderp

[Anonymous No.]

>>19240455
Yeah, I don't buy the fact that fights break out every time you post either here or in the /vg/ thread and its never, ever your fault.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19251110
Touhou is basically what would happen if you made a story about a terrible murderous fascist dictatorship, but it's from the perspective of the people benefiting from that dictatorship. Innocent people are being murdered and oppressed. But since the main characters are busy leading happy privileged lives, they have no reason to care or seek to change the status quo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19251512
It's my fault insofar that I have opinions about Touhou that other people really don't like. Usually because it either paints a character they like as a bad person. Or because they get in the way of their own view of Gensokyo as a perfect utopian wish fulfillment land.

[Anonymous No.]

gensokyo literally exists as a concept - like, it was invented by ZUN - because of the notion that godless modernity sucks or at least is fundamentally lacking in something. if you are big a fan of modernity and criticize touhou on this basis you're fundamentally sitting at the wrong table.

and gensokyo is not any more grim than the mythology its based on and if you're going to write off the entirety of japanese folk tales as "grimderp" you're a fucking joke (unless you think youkai being a bunch of girls is just derpy, in which case... what the fuck are you doing here?)

for ages the "fan theory" has been that gensokyo eats what aokigahara provides and while that's depressing it's really not that grim anyway. god damn i hate you all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19228414
lol look at this human faggot xD
mentally diseased

[Anonymous No.]

>>19251522
Maybe if you rephrased things on a less obnoxious and pretentious way, maybe people would like you better. Why don't you try doing so?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19251535
Maybe you're too underage to have self awareness, maybe criticism simply enters one ear and leaves on the other one, maybe you're just thick as a brick! But I hope one day you just stop for a moment and take a second to figure out "why is it that absolutely everywhere I go people just fucking hate me and take time of their lives discussing the same themes over and over?" "Why is it that no one has ever supported my claims?" "Are they fighting me simply because I insult their 2hus/dismiss their headcanon?" "Is there a more complex reason behind it?" "Do I write like a fucking prick?" "Should I stop posting my SPECULATIVE ideas and arguments as facts?".
Hope it helps you see the light, I don't think you should be exterminated like everyone else thinks so, I think you can be redeemed!

[Anonymous No.]

>>19253493
Lol, look at this Youkai apologist.
Mentally diseased.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19254472
I'll try to be more polite, and not use naughty words in the future. Would that be enough?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19254508
>"why is it that absolutely everywhere I go people just fucking hate me and take time of their lives discussing the same themes over and over?"
Because some Touhou fans are childish and immature. And can't handle any opinions that get in the way of their precious image of Gensokyo. To the point that they actively go look for me to bitch at me.

>"Why is it that no one has ever supported my claims?"
Expect for all of those people that have supported my claims. But those don't exist in your world, i suppose.

>"Is there a more complex reason behind it?"
Yes. I would say it's pleny complex.

>"Do I write like a fucking prick?"
I only do that when people write to me like a fucking prick. Like you.

>"Should I stop posting my SPECULATIVE ideas and arguments as facts?"
Yes. That's why i don't do that. It's the reason why i often write down "probably" or "I think" or even "This is just speculation" when making posts. I do that to indicate when something is speculation or a theory, rather than a fact. And that includes things that might be subject to unreliable narrator.

You can try to pretend that your irrational anger towards me is something more. But by the end of the day, it will always reveal itself to be just that. Irrational, childish, silly anger towards somebody that you just don't agree with. Every argument you post about why i'm supposedly Stalin reincarnated just makes it more and more obvious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19251673
>gensokyo literally exists as a concept - like, it was invented by ZUN - because of the notion that godless modernity sucks or at least is fundamentally lacking in something. if you are big a fan of modernity and criticize touhou on this basis you're fundamentally sitting at the wrong table.
If that is true. Then I don't think he made a very good case for himself. It was one thing when, as described in the PCB prologue, the Human Villagers were all Youkai hunting badasses. But the Human Village as it's described today isn't exactly what anybody would call a more fulfilling life. Unless you just hate freedom and not having to constantly fear the world around you.

He also goes out of its way to portray Gensokyo as not a very pleasant place to be as a Outsiders. Most of them being murdered and eaten has been a part of the lore pretty much since there was any lore to speak off. Symposium mentions that most outsiders that do decide to stay don't adjust properly. And the one outsider with a genuine interest in Gensokyo has been consistently portrayed as a childish irresponsible pretentious hipster with a superiority complex. If Gensokyo really is supposed to be better than the outside world, which i somewhat doubt, then i do think there's a clear message of "You still shouldn't go there".

[Anonymous No.]

Dear Lord that dumbass is actually thinking that people are mean to him because they can't handle his "opinions". Flan told you about ironic shitposting and here we go fucking again.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19255757
>"H-He's just shitposting. He doesn't actually think this way!"
You people are pathetic.

[Anonymous No.]

bump

[Anonymous No.]

>>19133659
No, nor are ideals.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19256964
Just let it die, anon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19255124
>Human Villagers were all Youkai hunting badasses.
>Most people feared the youkai, but a brave warrior would occasionally rise to defeat them. Some of those brave humans settled in Gensokyo
>Since they grew to the point where they could produce light to make it seem like midday even at midnight.
Because the humans blindly followed materialistic science
The village was never described as a place full of badasses.

>the Human Village as it's described today isn't exactly what anybody would call a more fulfilling life.
>So, why is Gensokyo a paradise for humans if they have to live with youkai?
Well, that's because when everyone has enough power to defeat youkai in combat, and that's anything but boring!

[Anonymous No.]

>>19255124
>If that is true. Then I don't think he made a very good case for himself.
this isn't something that ZUN invented out of whole cloth and tried to sell you. it's always existed. the struggle between man and modernity has been analyzed by everyone from marx to orwell to mishima to heidegger. read carefully part II of symposium of post-mysticism: kanako pretty much lays out exactly the crisis of modernity as understood by ZUN (plus or minus a bit of character filtering); it covers everything from the crisis of modernity to human thirst for gods.

Kanako: That's right. "It'd be fun if they existed. Wouldn't it be exciting? But it's too bad they aren't real." is the mindset of modern humans.
Miko: So in the end, humans have no need of things that threaten their lives, but they wish from the bottom of their hearts for their mortal enemies to appear. That's what you mean?
Kanako: It may be just as Ms. Miko says. When there are no enemies, you can't feel the sense of being alive, after all.

now marisa responds with "that's dumb" as you probably did. that's fine! it means you like modernity. lots of people like modernity. it's objectively pretty materially great. on the other hand, not everyone is you. the conflict of romanticism with modernity is something people have struggled with for ages and modernity doesn't always win. gensokyo is only "for" the discontents of modernity. you're conflating your own opinion of gensokyo with what ZUN is trying to sell us.

>then i do think there's a clear message of "You still shouldn't go there".
you're reading something that's absolutely not something ZUN's saying. the true "go or stay" conflict is played out in the the sealing club side stories and at the end of the day it's just renko yanking back merry because she doesn't want her to go away as opposed to gensokyo secretly being shitty. sumireko is a brat but if she weren't a brat she wouldn't be screwing around with the occult, she'd be studying textbooks in preparation for university examinations like everyone else. just now it actually reminded me of what haruhi was looking for all those years ago. she was kind of a brat too.

i don't recall the part in symposium about outsiders failing to adjust properly to gensokyo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19255124
>Human Villagers were all Youkai hunting badasses.
>Most people feared the youkai, but a brave warrior would occasionally rise to defeat them. Some of those brave humans settled in Gensokyo
>Since they grew to the point where they could produce light to make it seem like midday even at midnight.
>Because the humans blindly followed materialistic science
The village was never described as a place full of badasses. There probably are some but they are a minority.

>the Human Village as it's described today isn't exactly what anybody would call a more fulfilling life.
>So, why is Gensokyo a paradise for humans if they have to live with youkai?
>Well, that's because when everyone has enough power to defeat youkai in combat, and that's anything but boring!

[Anonymous No.]

>>19260325
Unless the definition of "everybody" has changed since the last time I looked. This line:
>Well, that's because when everyone has enough power to defeat youkai in combat, and that's anything but boring!

Makes it perfectly clear that, once upon a time, everybody in the Human Village really was strong enough to fight Youkai and win.

I also completely agree with that line, by the way. The only way a place like Gensokyo can be a paradise for humans is if EVERYBODY is strong enough to fight Youkai. If only because that makes the Human Village sound like an awesome place to life. Like a cross between Valhalla and Israel.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19260247
I get that the conflict between modernity and romanticism is a pretty frequently topic in stories. Not so much in real life, since countries that don't embrace modernity were nearly all colonized by the ones that did. But like I said, I just don't think Touhou makes a very good case in favor of romanticism, even in comparison to other works. It would have been one thing if the Human Villagers were all Youkai hunting badasses, like they were described in the PCB prologue. Or if they totally got along with Youkai, like they apparently did in PMISS. But the Human Village as portrayed in every print work since Symposium is, at best, a pretty mediocre place to live. And it's made clear that the people benefiting the most from such a lifestyle are not the villagers. But Youkai, Gods, and Humans willing to betray/abandon the rest of humanity.

Which, combined with Gensokyo nature as a parasite feeding on the outside world. And the fact that Youkai and Gods are, or at least were, essentially sentient meme. Means that, unless ZUN is just that bad of a writer, I find it way easier to believe that the message behind Gensokyo is not "modernity is bad" but "Sticking to old traditions is actively going to get people killed". Which, by the way, is completely true ("Hey guys! Let's go burn this baby because it might be a changeling").

>you're reading something that's absolutely not something ZUN's saying.
But we don't actually know what he's saying. He isn't the kind of writers to reveal his authorial intent.

>the true "go or stay" conflict is played out in the the sealing club side stories and at the end of the day it's just renko yanking back merry because she doesn't want her to go away as opposed to gensokyo secretly being shitty. I
I'm not saying Gensokyo is secretly shit. Just that outsiders living there would not have an easy time. Also, I would argue Renko pulling back Maribel is portrayed as the sensible thing to do. Even if the future isn't the best place to live for somebody as, uh, "special" as Maribel.

>sumireko is a brat but if she weren't a brat she wouldn't be screwing around with the occult, she'd be studying textbooks in preparation for university examinations like everyone else. The thing about Sumireko though is that if she isn't supposed to be a straw Touhou fan. Then she's one of the greatest examples of unintentional parody that I've ever seen. She reads like every "I WANT TO GO TO GENSOKYO!" Touhou fan I've seen both on this site, and others. I find it hard to believe that was unintentional.

>i don't recall the part in symposium about outsiders failing to adjust properly to gensokyo
>However, examples of humans like her who come in to Gensokyo by their own will and settle down here are rare. Moreover, she is a preciously rare human being that is adjusting to Gensokyo.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Sanae_Kochiya

[Anonymous No.]

>>19262826
>Gensokyo’s nature as a paradise free from the outside world, where according to Maribel and Renko, most edible plants are extinct, and "children do not smile".
ftfy

[Anonymous No.]

>>19262700
The line means that technically anybody can fight a youkai and win thanks to the spell card rules.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19263382
Um. Anon, the Spellcard rules didn't exist back then.

>>19263291
Source?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19263452
Changeability of Strange Dream

[Anonymous No.]

So this dude never read CDs and yet he's constantly shit talking Merry. Not that I'm surprised.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19263498
I can't find that exact quote anywhere. Still, i doubt you're lying. So, i'll try and look at the quote out of context:

>Gensokyo’s nature as a paradise free from the outside world
ZUN has called Gensokyoa paradise before. But i've viewed that as something that's to be taken with a grain of salt. I mean, one of the first stories he wrote about Gensokyo is called "Dolls in PSEUDO PARADISE".

>where according to Maribel and Renko, most edible plants are extinct, and "children do not smile".
The important thing here is "according to Maribel and Renko". Touhou has often used unreliable narrator in its various print works. And while i don't doubt that Maribel and Renko dislike the future. That doesn't mean that 1: It's actually as bad as they claim. 2: They speak for everybody.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19263554
I've got nothing against Merry. From what i can remember, she was a nice if somewhat strange girl. Quite unlike the complete monster she eventually became.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19263655
yukari is a good girl

[Anonymous No.]

>>19264045
What qualities do you think make somebody a good girl then?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19264080
*Makes somebody a good girl then?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19263452
>Um. Anon, the Spellcard rules didn't exist back then.
>Though innumerable years have passed since its sealing, Gensokyo is still home to many youkai and just a few humans.
Context.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19264309
I don't understand what exactly you're trying to say. The spell card rules weren't really a thing in the lore until PMISS. What does "Though innumerable years have passed since its sealing, Gensokyo is still home to many youkai and just a few humans" have to do with anything?

[Anonymous No.]

>>19262826
>But like I said, I just don't think Touhou makes a very good case in favor of romanticism, even in comparison to other works
touhou's job is not to make the case for romanticism. it's a work FOR romantics. the conceptual attraction of romanticism is not to make everybody into a youkai hunting badass, it's not some retarded isekai shit. neither is supposed to be a paradise where every earthly need is fulfilled. life in the human village is supposed to something like life "but interesting". its attraction is spiritual, not material. and there's nothing inherently miserable about a village whose standard of living is essentially meiji era japan boosted by modern/magical medicine and bits of anachronistic technology here and there.

>Means that, unless ZUN is just that bad of a writer, I find it way easier to believe that the message behind Gensokyo is not "modernity is bad" but "Sticking to old traditions is actively going to get people killed".
this isn't about ZUN being a bad writer. basically every single last person who reads about gensokyo comes to the same conclusion except you. it's not even modernity being bad so much as modernity being lacking in some ways. he even spelled it out in big bold letters in symposium what everybody ALREADY knew for years and years and years before symposium was ever written: if someone lectures to an entire hall and one person doesn't get the message it's not the fucking lecturer's fault. if the message you get from "However, once their world became rich in materal wealth and knowledge, even the average human began to realize that happiness could not be fulfilled by just material things." isn't at least a tacit criticism of modernity you're deliberately choosing to read ZUN's work with blinders on.

>But we don't actually know what he's saying. He isn't the kind of writers to reveal his authorial intent.
he reveals it all the fucking time. the words he chooses himself to describe gensokyo are those such as "fantastic", "romantic", "wonderful", "mysterious", and "paradise", both in-character AND out of character as the author himself. you simply refuse to acknowledge the words he actually uses because you project your but-yukari-is-hitler interpretation on top of it.

>>19263651
>The important thing here is "according to Maribel and Renko". Touhou has often used unreliable narrator in its various print works.
maribel and renko represent the view of the outsider. there's literally nothing in any of ANY of the sealing club works to indicate that ZUN disagrees with them in any way. for like ten years they represented the view of the outsider because they were the only proper outsiders. they run a fucking doujin circle for fuck's sakes. and finally, no, it's not according to maribel and renko, "Still, even in this country whose children's hearts become smaller and smaller, perhaps the day will come when the streets will be filled with the smiles of children. Synthetically, that is." was written by ZUN himself in the afterword as himself.

>Then she's one of the greatest examples of unintentional parody that I've ever seen. She reads like every "I WANT TO GO TO GENSOKYO!" Touhou fan I've seen both on this site, and others. I find it hard to believe that was unintentional.
i never said it was unintentional. what's your fucking point? she's a partial parody and a brat. "Sumireko is filled with gripes towards modern-day Japan, but as denizens of the outside world they're easy for us to grasp. It's the kind of thing you might see in a light novel." haruhi was a brat. doesn't mean she's a character you're supposed to hate. the point of all the outside world characters it that the outside world characters are standing in for you in some way or another.

[Anonymous No.]

>touhou's job is not to make the case for romanticism. it's a work FOR romantics.
If a story, or setting in this case, does not work unless you share the same beliefs as the writer. Then it is a bad setting/story. I've enjoyed works were I completely disagreed with the author yet could still sympathize with the characters and their plight. If Gensokyo actually felt like a paradise. Then it doesn't matter if I'm not a romantic. I mean, one of my favorite games of all time is Mother 3. And that game is incredibly romanticist.

But the thing is, the Human Village, at least in recent portrayals, has never felt like "Life, but interesting". At best, its "Life, but mostly peaceful". Which, certainly has its appeal to some people (Gensokyo would make a good old folks home). But it's also not something that you need to sacrifice modernity for to achieve. Overall, in the grand scheme of things, the Human village isn't a miserable place to live. It's just kind of a mediocre one.

>this isn't about ZUN being a bad writer. basically, every single last person who reads about gensokyo comes to the same conclusion except you.
1: Don't speak for everybody, it just makes you sound disingenuous. 2: I strongly doubt that most people who read Touhou print work come to any kind of conclusion expect "I WANT TO FUCK THIS TOUHOU!". 3: I don't disagree that Touhou criticizes modernity, also secularism (Because, you know, let's start murdering Christians again). But I also think that the actual point of Touhou is that sticking to old traditions and ideas isn't a good solution to regaining that which was lost. Neither points are inherently contradictory. If anything, they compliment each other.

>he reveals it all the fucking time. the words he chooses himself to describe gensokyo are those such as "fantastic", "romantic", "wonderful", "mysterious", and "paradise", both in-character AND out of character as the author himself.
It's also been called a Pseudo Paradise. I don't find it hard to believe he was being ironic. Also, I'm not refusing to acknowledge it because "Muh headcanon". I refuse to believe it because I find it hard to believe that ZUN would go out of his way to portray Gensokyo as a place that can only function because of the systemized mass murder of innocent people, and ultimately mostly benefits murderous Youkai and selfish gods, yet still expects us to view it as a paradise. Mostly because I don't think the guy is a nazi or incredibly stupid.

>maribel and renko represent the view of the outsider.
It's obvious that those two aren't supposed to represent the views of normal outsiders. But outsiders that don't fit into the material/science-based society of the future.

I do, however, admit that ZUN's afterword does pretty strongly imply that Maribel and Renko are right about the future. Even if it still doesn't sound all that bad. I mean, it's not exactly cyberpunk.

>doesn't mean she's a character you're supposed to hate
True. But If outsiders are supposed to be audience surrogates. Then I find it very interesting that he made Sumireko a pretentious stupid hipster with no self-preservation instinct. I find it hard to believe that he didn't include somebody like that to point out how stupid the whole "I WANT TO GO TO GENSOKYO!" mentality actually is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19266678
>If a story, or setting in this case, does not work unless you share the same beliefs as the writer. Then it is a bad setting/story.
literature does not need to aspire to be universal to be "good." you're free to find it a terrible setting if you want. it doesn't mean you get to reinterpret ZUN so that the setting is more palatable for you.

>But it's also not something that you need to sacrifice modernity for to achieve.
it literally is. that's the ENTIRE underpinning of the setting. gensokyo exists because the existence of youkai is not compatible with modernity. it's not conceptually impossible to write a universe subject superstition to scientific analysis (like all those shitty MCs that "figure out" the rules of magic and become OP fucks) but everything we've ever seen anyone say indicates that that's not how the ZUNverse works.

>1: Don't speak for everybody, it just makes you sound disingenuous.
you're basically the last person i'd take tone lessons from.

>the actual point of Touhou is that sticking to old traditions and ideas isn't a good solution to regaining that which was lost.
the residents of touhou don't blindly stick to old traditions and ideas. youkai mountain and the idiots who live on top of it come up with new things all the time. your claim is that the entire concept of gensokyo is evil, not just "old traditions and ideas are bad."

>I don't find it hard to believe he was being ironic.
if you say someone say something consistently a hundred times and he doesn't break character even once, you start to strain credulity by insisting that no, in fact, he was just being ironic the entire time.

>I find it hard to believe that ZUN would go out of his way to portray Gensokyo as a place that can only function because of the systemized mass murder of innocent people, and ultimately mostly benefits murderous Youkai and selfish gods, yet still expects us to view it as a paradise.
so, you're not doing textual analysis. you're assuming that ZUN thinks exactly the same way you do and making strained interpretations of the words he used so that it conforms with your view of the world.

but, since you're so against the institutionalized murder machine that is yukari's death squads, i'll explain to a theory that you may or not be aware of (it's really not clear to me whether you've heard this theory before): the prevailing fan theory of what gensokyo eats, for the last fifteen years or so, has been that it skims off japan's massive supply of suicide aspirants. it's where the popular theory that "aokigahara is the entrance to gensokyo" comes from, there's probably over a thousand doujinshi about it by now. (in japan, aokigahara is also known as the forest of suicides.)
this theory has never been officially confirmed, but it's never been denied, and ZUN lampshaded it in retrospective 53 minutes: he literally named one of his songs "Legend of Aokigahara."

so there you have it, it's just as likely that yukari doesn't eat anyone who didn't feel like dying anyway. you may now partake in the mystery and romance of gensokyo without the spectre of the einsatzgruppen hovering over your conscience the entire time.

>I find it hard to believe that he didn't include somebody like that to point out how stupid the whole "I WANT TO GO TO GENSOKYO!" mentality actually is.
it's not a unique character archetype, and it doesn't exist to be hated.. just watch haruhi already.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19265022
>The spell card rules weren't really a thing in the lore until PMISS.
They where created in EoSD.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19266678
>If a story, or setting in this case, does not work unless you share the same beliefs as the writer. Then it is a bad setting/story.
literature does not need to aspire to be universal to be "good." you're free to find it a terrible setting if you want. it doesn't mean you're correct in reinterpreting ZUN so that the setting is more palatable for you.

>But it's also not something that you need to sacrifice modernity for to achieve.
it literally is. that's the ENTIRE underpinning of the setting. gensokyo exists because the existence of youkai is not compatible with modernity. it's not conceptually impossible to write a universe in which superstition is subject to empirical scientific analysis (like all those shitty MCs that "figure out" the rules of magic and become OP fucks) but everything we've ever seen anyone say indicates that that's not how the ZUNverse works.

>1: Don't speak for everybody, it just makes you sound disingenuous.
you're basically the last person i'd take tone lessons from.

>the actual point of Touhou is that sticking to old traditions and ideas isn't a good solution to regaining that which was lost.
the residents of touhou don't blindly stick to old traditions and ideas. youkai mountain and the idiots who live on top of it come up with new things all the time. your claim is that the entire concept of gensokyo is evil, not just "old traditions and ideas are bad."

>I don't find it hard to believe he was being ironic.
if you say someone say something consistently a hundred times and he doesn't break character even once, you start to strain credulity by insisting that no, in fact, he was just being ironic the entire time.

>I find it hard to believe that ZUN would go out of his way to portray Gensokyo as a place that can only function because of the systemized mass murder of innocent people, and ultimately mostly benefits murderous Youkai and selfish gods, yet still expects us to view it as a paradise.
so, you're not doing textual analysis. you're assuming that ZUN thinks exactly the same way you do and making strained interpretations of the words he used so that it conforms with your view of the world.

but, since you're so against the institutionalized murder machine that is yukari's death squads, i'll explain to a theory that you may or not be aware of (it's really not clear to me whether you've heard this theory before): the prevailing fan theory of what gensokyo eats, for the last fifteen years or so, has been that it skims off japan's massive supply of suicide aspirants. it's where the popular theory that "aokigahara is the entrance to gensokyo" comes from, there's probably over a thousand doujinshi about it by now. (in japan, aokigahara is also known as the forest of suicides.) this theory has never been officially confirmed, but it's never been denied, and ZUN lampshaded it in retrospective 53 minutes: he literally named one of his songs "Legend of Aokigahara."

so there you have it, it's just as likely that yukari doesn't eat anyone who didn't feel like dying anyway. you may now partake in the mystery and romance of gensokyo without the spectre of the einsatzgruppen hovering over your conscience the entire time.

>I find it hard to believe that he didn't include somebody like that to point out how stupid the whole "I WANT TO GO TO GENSOKYO!" mentality actually is.
it's not a unique character archetype, and it doesn't exist to be hated. just watch haruhi already.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19266678
also, dolls in pseudo paradise, especially the story of the eight honest men, is not really "canon". it's tone differs markedly from everything that comes after to it, to the point where the horror story that first accompanied the CD was completely rewritten when he rereleased it.

the original version of dolls in pseudo paradise is really more of a fantasy rendition of "and then they were none" than part of gensokyo proper. i'd really hesitate before trying to actually conclude anything about canon from it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19266945
>literature does not need to aspire to be universal to be "good.
Obviously not. But it can be good without being universal. I should add, by the way, that I do like Gensokyo as a setting. I might get something else out of it than most people, but I do still like reading about it. I wouldn't be here otherwise.

>it literally is. that's the ENTIRE underpinning of the setting.
You misunderstood me. What I'm trying to say is that you can have the kind of peace the Human Villagers have without needing to abandon modernity. Which I know is true, because I live in a peaceful country that's still incredibly modern.

>you're basically the last person i'd take tone lessons from.
Fair enough. But you still shouldn't try and speak for everybody.

>your claim is that the entire concept of gensokyo is evil, not just "old traditions and ideas are bad."
My claim is that the entire concept behind Gensokyo is ultimately only really beneficial to Youkai, Gods, and the people that serve them. And that while modernity has its problems, adhering to romanticist believes would result in an even worse society. One where innocent people are murdered. Humanity will never experience true freedom. And cruelty and violence are the norm.

>if you say someone say something consistently a hundred times and he doesn't break character even once, you start to strain credulity by insisting that no, in fact, he was just being ironic the entire time.
I believe he consistently ironically calls it a paradise. If you think that strains my credibility, then fine.

>so, you're not doing textual analysis. you're assuming that ZUN thinks exactly the same way you do and making strained interpretations of the words he used so that it conforms with your view of the world.
I have analyzed his work. And I've come to the conclusion that Gensokyo is a false paradise created by malicious entities to prolong their own unnatural existence. I should add, by the way, that wasn't always how I felt about Gensokyo. When I first got into Touhou, about eight years ago, I actually genuinely thought it was a paradise. But the print works and games released since then slowly caused me to change my mind with every new development.

>the prevailing fan theory of what gensokyo eats, for the last fifteen years or so, has been that it skims off japan's massive supply of suicide aspirants.
I have heard of that theory. It's a pretty good one. And if it was confirmed, I would be singing a slightly different tune. However: 1: It's still theory. And what little we know about the way most outsiders that end up in Gensokyo act doesn't exactly support it. 2: Because of the way suicide actually works. It's still pretty evil. Especially when stealing corpses should still logically be an option. And 3: I can enjoy the mystery and romance of Gensokyo just fine while still thinking Yukari is an irredeemably evil monster. Those two things are not inherently contractionary.

>Just watch haruhi already.
No. Also, I never said I actually hated Sumireko. She's slowly starting to become one of my favorites, actually. But I do think she is supposed to show how stupid and shallow that kind of mentality actually is.

>>19267004
>i'd really hesitate before trying to actually conclude anything about canon from it.
That's fair. I do view it as canon personally. Which, well, obviously.

>>19266939
Spellcards as a concept have been around since EoSD. But the actual spell card rules weren't really a thing until PMISS. Which also retroactively added them to past games.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19269460
* Which, well, it's pretty obvious why.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19269460
>Spellcards as a concept have been around since EoSD. But the actual spell card rules weren't really a thing until PMISS. Which also retroactively added them to past games.
The rules were created in EoSD but we only got some detail on them in PMiSS. You can't really have a game without rules.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19269515
Spellcards existed as a mechanic in EoSD. But they weren't really a thing story wise yet. ZUN even called them "Attack cards" in Flandre's character profile.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19269710
>It's said that the raucous Scarlet Mist incident caused by that vampire was the first time the spell card rules were put to use.

[Anonymous No.]

>>19269803
That was a retcon. There Was no mention of the spellcard rules in EoSD.