[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/jp/ - Otaku Culture

View post   
  [?]In ghost mode, only threads with non-archived posts will be shown
File: 47 KB, 804x604, GARm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1575843 No.1575843 [Reply] [Original]

How come Shirou was able to beat Berserker but Archer couldn't?

Also why the hell didn't he use Rule Breaker earlier?

>> No.1575852

>>1575843
protagonist hax

>> No.1575853

Because Nasu.

>> No.1575850

I'd like to think because Ilya made Berserker hesitate, not to mention that he was also blind or some shit.

>> No.1575855
File: 8 KB, 148x150, 1226121350532.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1575855

>>1575843
Because I am what men what to be.

>> No.1575862

>>1575843
Shiki can beat all of them

>> No.1575871

His stats went down when he got covered in mud, because he lost his divinity.
Also, his God Hand was gone.

>> No.1575881

>How come Shirou was able to beat Berserker but Archer couldn't?
Good question.

It's probably the biggest contradiction in Fate. But here's my two cents:

-The Castle is Ilya's workshop. Fighting inside of it would give Berserker and Ilya a huge advantage.
-When demonic powers go up, divinity goes down(see Rider's profile). What was Berserker's greatest asset? His divinity. When consumed by the tainted shadow he must have lost a great deal of it. Before, it would take a rank A NP to harm him because of his ties to the gods, but after he is consumed by Sakura it just takes someone with enough strength to get past the overwhelming offense.
-Archer had a great deal more work to do. First off, he would need A rank weapons to kill Berserker because they go down one rank when he projects them. Yes, they would become B rank, but then he just needs to shoot them as broken phantasms to get their true strength. Archer can't project Excaliber, so you have to wonder how many rank A weapons he CAN project. In the end, 6 times isn't bad at all.

>Also why the hell didn't he use Rule Breaker earlier?
Shirou didn't know about AM as her servant until after she had left his house.

>> No.1575888

>Also why the hell didn't he use Rule Breaker earlier?
He only realized after they see Sakura for the first time after she goes berserk. You can see it comes to him while they're discussing battle plans VS Sakura or something. My memory isn't a little foggy.

>> No.1575893

>>1575881
Shirou can project Excalibur. rcher would have no problem doing so.

>> No.1575899

>My memory isn't a little foggy.
is*

>> No.1575909

>>1575843
BECAUSE SHIROU WAS FIGHTING FOR HIS TRUE LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE

>> No.1575910

>>1575881
>>1575893
Archer hadn't seen Excalibur, so of course he couldn't trace it.

>> No.1575914

>>1575910
Reread UBW, please.

>> No.1575912

>>1575893
Wrong. Projecting Excaliber would destroy Archer.

You mean Calibern, which is an inferior sword. A rank, yes, but not the A++ of Excaliber.
Shirou can project Calibern with the help of Avalon. He would not be able to do so without. Archer can.

>> No.1575913

For Archer, projecting Excalibur is like pulling out a rocket launcher when he only needs an m4 given his skills.

>> No.1575915

>>1575912
Shirou projects Excalibur.

>> No.1575921

>>1575912
Fuck, learn to spell.

>>1575914
When did we start talking UBW?
I thought this was about Archer's failure in Fate as opposed to Shirou's success in HF.

>> No.1575926

>>1575921
...Archer threatened to use Excalibur in UBW ROUTE against Saber, that is why he managed to get away with Rin, idiot.

>> No.1575928

>>1575915
Are you talking about Normal End, where Shirou uses Archer's circuit to it's maximum and it utterly destroys everything he is to the point where even his soul cannot be saved by the third sorcery?

Read UBW. Archer tells Saber himself he can project Excaliber but not without it killing him in the process.

>> No.1575931

>>1575913
Better analogy: For Archer, projecting Excalibur is like shooting somebody at point-blank range with a rocket launcher instead of just spraying him with lead. It's self-destructive overkill.

>> No.1575934

>>1575928
I think it's more like two Excaliburs clashing will kill all those surrounding them, in other words Rin and Shirou.

>> No.1575935

>>1575928
the clash between two excaliburs in that closed space would kill Rin and Shirou. It has nothing to do with tracing Excalibur damaging Archer.

Shirou dies from tracing Excalibur because it's one trace over his limit, not because it's Excalibur.

>> No.1575940

>>1575926
It's been a long time since I read UBW, so I won't dispute that. But at the time of the Archer vs. Berserker fight, Archer had not seen Excalibur so it would not have been present in his reality marble. Will you dispute that?

>> No.1575941

>>1575940
Shirou sees Excalibur whenever he does his shitty magic training.

>> No.1575946

>>1575941
Archer is an alternate reality, Ilya-route Shirou.
And besides, that's Caliburn Shirou sees.

>> No.1575948

>>1575940
...He didn't see Excalibur in UBW either. Or have you also forgotten that Saber only revealed it at the very end when she destroyed the grail with it?

>> No.1575952

>>1575948
>It's been a long time since I read UBW
It was such a shitty route, I did my best to forget it.
Well, if you're right, your logic beats mine. I'll concede defeat.

>> No.1575953

>>1575946
He sees Excalibur because it's sheath is a part of his body.

He doesn't see caliburn until he watches Saber use excalibur.

>> No.1575991
File: 468 KB, 782x591, 1226124268187.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1575991

Archer has seen Excalibur because he is Shirou.
>>1575934
>>1575935
I hope you both are happy. This unnecessary waste of my time is just for you. Picture related.

>> No.1576017

>>1575843
Archer was almost killed by Saber on day 3, so he's never at full strength the whole Fate route.

>> No.1576056

haha

archer can fight berserker full on

but shirou needs some mud h4x to do it

and he needs

archers arm too

LAME

archer <33333

>> No.1576055

>>1575843
He thought up using Rule Breaker the second he learned Avenger was Sakura's servant.

Coincidentally, so did I, and I was hoping he'd use it instead of some other stupid plot bullshit. To my delight, he did.

As for Archer, OF COURSE he's seen Excalibur. He's fate-route Shirou, more or less, so he's seen it. Quite a lot.

>> No.1576060
File: 150 KB, 560x644, 1226126020625.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1576060

>>1576056
Back in my day, trolling meant something.

>> No.1576190

A question in the Fate route, what's so special about Caliburn that it nullifies all of Berserker's remaining lives? I see nothing in Excalibur/Caliburn's legends about that unlike say Shamshir-e Zomorrodnegar which is used to kill a protected demon.

>> No.1576481

>>1576190
It's just so FUCKING UBER it did 6x his max HP.

>> No.1576540

>>1575881
Wait a second: Gilgamesh's weapons from Gates of Babylon are all equal to rank A NP, despite these are no NP yet and that he isn't their wielder?

He could skewer Berserker quite easily, so that is kinda ridiculous (well, Gil was so ridiculous to begin with that the way he dies in each route is always stupid)
Nasu learns to create probably antagonist without obliterating them in a silly way just because he miscalculated the baddy POWA SCALE.

>> No.1576568

>>1576060
Dude makes a point though.

>> No.1576603

>>1576540
The reason Gilgamesh handed Berserker his ass was because Berserker was forced to be a shield for Ilya and since he is Hercules who has divinity out the ass Gilgamesh's chains had his down.

>> No.1576945

>>1576603
The thing is that his body should cancel out anything below A. Regardless he is forced to be Ilya's shield, that wouldn't change the matter at all, especially that Enkidu only immobilize entities with strong divinity, it absolutely doesn't have any effect on the target's defense etc.

>> No.1576959

>>1576945
it's B rank and below

and yes, if your chained up and unable to move, your defense is fucked no matter how you look at it

>> No.1576977

>>1576959
Defense in its large sense, yes.
But as far as it is shown with berserker, his skin is just hard enough to repell anything below A (below A = B and below, but heh...)
Basically speaking, it shouldn't matter at all since Berserker's body has a passive defense.

>> No.1576987

>>1576983
tan lines

>> No.1576981

>>1576977
difference being that b+ does bypass godhand.

>> No.1576983

HERE'S SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT

WHY DOESN'T SHIROU TAKE ARCHER'S SLEEVE OFF

>> No.1576991

>>1576603
If Gil always started and continued to spam GOB like he did with Hercules he wouldn't die all the time.
Gil only apparently takes things seriously is when his fighting divine/royal figures or if his pissed (fighting Zero Berseker.)

>> No.1577004
File: 298 KB, 800x600, 1226142192720.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1577004

>>1576991
His serious fighting style is chaining people up and then drilling Ea into their asses, not GoB.

>> No.1577007

>>1576991
So how did that Zero Berserker vs Gil fight go on?

>> No.1577009

I thought it was because Archer didn't know about Nine Lives Blade Works. To him, (and pretty much everyone else) Berserker's sword was just a lump of rock.

Shirou traces it because he figures that if Berserker wields it, then it'd probably be enough to kill him, and with nothing apparently special about it, it wouldn't make his head asplode in a shower of swords. He just gets lucky that it allows him to use one of Berserker's forgotten abilities.

>> No.1577011
File: 154 KB, 640x480, 1226142388452.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1577011

>>1577007
Gil in his spaceship vs. Lancelot using F-15 fighter jet as NP.

>> No.1577014

>>1577007
Which one? The one where Zero Berserker catches the weapons Gil throws at him and deflects them back, or the one where Berserker steals/wields an F15 jet?

>> No.1577020

>>1577014
Both.

>> No.1577030

>>1577009
Shirou fully analyzed Berserker's weapon and saw what it could do so he replicated his noble phantasm. Nothing to do with luck he used his head.

>> No.1577037

>>1577009
I never thought of it like that...

Actually, this could be right. When Shirou traces weapons, he automatically knows it's attributes and uses.

But really, the axe-sword is just a chunk of a temple. Though not a noble phantasm in it's own right, the fact that it is part of a holy relic could give Shirou a part of Hercules' battle knowledge...

>> No.1577038

>>1577030
luck is what saved him from getting his head smashed in. If Berserker didn't notice Ilya Shirou would have died.

>> No.1577042

>>1577038
Well yes that part ..

>> No.1577044

>>1577038
And thus we see again that situation beat powerlevels easily.

>> No.1577051

>>1577042
Yeah Shirou does show some cool shit off. It's usually all a matter of circumstance that he actually wins though. Just the way Nasu writes. Shiki isn't even written as broken as what some people believe.

>> No.1577061

It's quite funny how people argue about the things that are actually explained in the story, instead of vague or unmentioned stuff.

>> No.1577071

>>1577061
It's because some people are too dumb to understand what the fuck happened.

>> No.1577075

Dark Berserker has fucked up skills. Archer would have easily beat him too.

About the Rule Breaker it has been already answered
>>1575888

Excalibur != Caliburn. Different swords (in FSN plot anyway). Archer can project Caliburn, Excalibur like EA isn't made from earth materials, UBW doesn't have them, so he can't make it unless he wants to commit suicide.

Archer is not Fate Shirou or anything. Archer is another route Shirou, one that doesn't have Emiya Shirou as a servant, probably has his Avalon removed. Also he learns most of his skills and how to use them after 5 HF, not during. In Shirou's 5 HF, Archer boosts his knowledge mostly by copying him.

Gilgamesh is a one(or two?) third god, he has slayed gods. He is the oldest and strongest servant, he has almost every prototype weapon in his vault and GoB offers him a great advantage. Plus EA.
Now you have some low servant or a young boy from 3 thousand years after your era who talks you bullshit. Why use your strongest weapon against them?
Gil is the lvl 99 top armor/weapon character in a rpg full of lvl 1 characters.

>> No.1577077

>>1577075 Excalibur like EA isn't made from earth materials

No, just no.

>> No.1577079

>>1577075
Too bad this RPG is ability driven rather then stats driven.

I won't use Ea on a punk like you, it's only for Saber, it's not like you can hurt me...Wait, Reality Marble, what the WOAH- My sword, where is it it AGHHHH MY ARM'

'Prepare yourself Saber, As I unleash Ea, it's not like you can evade the attack again, especially if I prep you for it, Damn I'm Fabulous.
Wait, why doesn't it work, let me try again GOD MY INNARDS ARE SLASHED'

'Sorry little girl, you were just Gate of Babylowned. HAHAHHAHAHA, damn I'm good, now the girl surely lies dead in her own blood...Wait, are these tentacles...Black?
What the HMNGFFFFF'

>> No.1577085

>>1577075
>Excalibur like EA isn't made from earth materials
Do you even pay attention to the text in F/SN? Archer mentioned he can make Exaclibur, Hell Shirou did it at the end of HF if you went normal end.

>> No.1577086

>>1577037
>When Shirou traces weapons, he automatically knows it's attributes and uses.
In order to trace them he needs to know it's attributes.

>> No.1577090

>>1577077
Indeed.
Earth Materials, forged by Divine Spirits, of the top 3 holy swords.

Shirou/Archer can trace it with great burden/overload, while they cannot read Ea at all.

>> No.1577094

>>1577085
furthermore, the description of excalibur pretty much implies it is a holy weapon created by the earth itself.
So it is something Shirou/Archer are able to read without any problem.

The only odd ball is Ea

>> No.1577095

>>1577085
>unless he wants to commit suicide.

>> No.1577097

can archer trace gil's airship?

>> No.1577099

>>1577097
at three times the cost if it were a sword.

>> No.1577100

>>1577097
Only weapons

>> No.1577113

>>1577100
Rho Aius anyone? Weapons are just what he is best at.

>> No.1577115

>>1577113
That's a weapon.

>> No.1577120

>>1577115
Thats a shield.

>> No.1577122

I bet Shirou can trace a Truck or a Airbus a380 or super tanker.

>> No.1577130
File: 28 KB, 840x564, 1226144925203.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1577130

Why didnt shiro trace a 88 flak, it would be much more useful then a sword or bow and that shit.

>> No.1577167
File: 37 KB, 640x368, 1226145503340.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1577167

>>Airbus a380

>> No.1577180

>>1577130
Too awesome for him

>> No.1577190

>>1577130
1 - he never seen, touched, felt or heard of one.
2 - it's too big to be traced and then held by hand.

>> No.1577213
File: 60 KB, 960x720, 1226146106461.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1577213

>>1577190
This girl traces shit too she had no problems.

>> No.1577217

Shirou should just trace the Dragon Slayer

>> No.1577236

Shirou can't trace Ea because it predates creation of the world

Go read the description for Ea

Otherwise, I think Shirou can trace anything provided he has the knowledge and materials to do so.

Didn't he trace Avalon the Fate route?

>> No.1577243

>>1577236
No; it was a part of him since the start, so he wasn't really 'replicating' it as much as removing it from his body.

>> No.1577247

>>1577243
He has already given it to Saber you fucking idiot.

READ THE ORIGINAL MATERIAL BEFORE ENTERING DISCUSSIONS

>> No.1577258

Shirou traced Avalon at the very end against Kotomine. AFTER it was removed from his body and given to Saber.

>> No.1577268

>>1577247
read? nobody fucking does that. We just make wild assumptions and further shit up everything that goes on in these threads

>> No.1577269

>>1577247
>>1577258
Read again that part. Shirou says that he doesn't need to even imagine it, because it was already a part of him.

>> No.1577277

>>1577269
...Yeah, so?
I know it well enough does not equal 'I HAVE IT RIGHT HERE'.

Idiot.

>> No.1577273

>>1577268
I start to believe people intntionally ruin TM threads, so they can complain 'EVERY TM THREAD IS SHIT' later.

>> No.1577279

>>1577269
Yes but he still traced the damn thing it was shown Saber and Shirou used Avalon at the same time.

>> No.1577286

>>1577273
of course. i mean take a look, people who appreciate the works of type-moon are so easy to troll

>> No.1577291

>>1577286
Yeah, like trolling anything that certain people LIKE won't yield the same results.

It's just that there are more people with irrational hate for T-Moon in /jp/ than other stuff.

>> No.1577298

>>1577020

First fight is one Servant popping out after the other. Was initially Saber vs Lancer, then Rider being the badass comes out roaring his real name and challenging all Servants to start a free-for-all to get the whole War over and done with unless they're pussies. Gil hates that and comes out too. Kariya immediately identifies the Tohsaka Servant and sends out Berserker. Gil gets pissed at him and starts lobbing GoB, but Berserker just picks up the first one that comes out and whacks the rest away. Tohsaka eventually uses a Command Spell to get Gil to retreat as he doesn't want to reveal all of Gil's abilities. Berserker then turns attention to Saber, who's gonna have it tough since her hand was sealed. But then Rider runs over Berserker with his thunder chariot, so Berserker retreats.

Second Fight was Gil using his flying machine against Berserker who hijacked a plane, while at the same time their masters confront each other. Again, Berserker sees Saber and starts gunning for her, leading to Gil GoB'ing his ass. Kariya also gets his ass kicked so mana becomes an issue again.

>> No.1577312

>>1577298
Holy shit this sounds awesome

>>
Reply to thread [?]Don't expect anything heroic. Your post will not be uploaded to the original board.
Name
E-mail
Subject
Comment
Action