So... is she Yukari?

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Anonymous Fri May 31 06:29:18 2013 No.10972557 [Reply] [Original]

So... is she Yukari?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:32:17 2013 No.10972560 Don't play with my feelings.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:32:32 2013 No.10972562 >>10972557 She's her bastard child.

Anonymous Fri May 31 06:39:32 2013 No.10972587

>>10972557
She's Yukari before she became Yukari.
>lives in a dystopian future
>constantly dreams about Gensokyo
>her dreams of Gensokyo happen in various time periods, from hundreds of years in Gensokyo's past to a time roughly near the present
>has the power to see boundaries
>Renko observes that her powers have been getting stronger, from being only able to visit Gensokyo in dreams to being able to move to distant locations while awake
The story of the Ghostly Field Club will end when Maribel's powers fully mature and she decides to travel far into the past to make the Gensokyo she dreamed of into a reality. As for Renko? Who knows.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:40:17 2013 No.10972591 >>10972562 That doesn't even make sense.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:41:47 2013 No.10972594 >>10972557 My gut feeling says "no". They just have similar powers = think in similar ways. Also>>10972560

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:43:33 2013 No.10972598 same hat same hair color similar ability same brunette haired friend what do you think?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:44:17 2013 No.10972601 >>10972598 >same brunette haired friend Woah, woah, are you trying to say that Renko is Reimu?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:45:03 2013 No.10972610 >>10972601 Renko is Yuyuko.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:45:17 2013 No.10972606 I think it’s pretty safe to assume that Yukari is Maribel yes.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:46:47 2013 No.10972613 >>10972610 #crackpottouhoutheories

Anonymous Fri May 31 06:47:02 2013 No.10972618

>>10972587
>constantly dreams of gensokyo
But that is wrong. She was only confirmed to have done it once.

Besides the idea that Mary would become Yukari overnight is stupid. That's not how youkai work. In that case, why are Sakuya, Marisa etc not youkai yet?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:48:02 2013 No.10972621 >>10972606 All of Maribel's dreams involve her being herself and getting into tight situations involving youkai though. I hardly think that Yukari would be running away from all the lowly youkai that Maribel is threatened by.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:50:17 2013 No.10972623 >>10972621 Because at that point she’s just Maribel. Yukari is Maribel but thousands of years old and non-human.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:51:17 2013 No.10972627 Yukari is Maribel's mom.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:51:17 2013 No.10972628 >>10972623 Then why would she go into the past?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:52:17 2013 No.10972631 File: 299 KB, 575x660, 4aab096a934ae74f4c554a8cd4414c38.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10972610 Renko is Iku! lelel

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:54:48 2013 No.10972636 File: 120 KB, 608x708, 5a2b676ed33645cfa7bb881035f4df7b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Maribel is Mima who is actually Yukari's and Unzan's mom and also Renko's cousin

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:55:17 2013 No.10972638 I don't really believe in this theory, but the only thing that bothers me with it is that people seem to think it's canon. It's not. Just saying. It's also sad how Maribel's character will forever be overshadowed by Yukari.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:56:32 2013 No.10972640 >>10972618 She's had multiple dreams. She just recounts all of them to Renko in one meeting. There's the one where she wanders into SDM, and another where she's in the bamboo forest, and yet another one

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:57:47 2013 No.10972645 >>10972640 >and yet another one Actually, I'm not sure whether she's had an explicit third dream. She's definitely had the SDM dream and the bamboo forest one though.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 06:58:47 2013 No.10972649 >>10972640 I'm pretty sure it was never stated whether or not that was the same dream.

Anonymous Fri May 31 07:00:17 2013 No.10972653

>>10972618
>Besides the idea that Mary would become Yukari overnight is stupid
It doesn't have to happen immediately. Maribel's powers are already getting stronger.

And Marisa is pretty clearly on a fast track to becoming a magician youkai unless she explicitly stops herself from becoming one (preferring being a human?)

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:00:32 2013 No.10972654 >>10972645 My guess is that Anon is referring to PMiSS. Again, we don't know. She was in the bamboo thicket, so I always assumed it was the same dream as in CoSD.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:03:47 2013 No.10972664 >>10972653 I'm aware of the case that's Marisa, but aren't there many humans with natural talents similar to Maribel's have remained human; and very much explicitly so? I'm just not convinced.

Anonymous Fri May 31 07:06:32 2013 No.10972674

>>10972628
>Then why would she go into the past?
She travels through time and the border in her dreams and we know that she physically gets there.
If she eventually starts going to Gensokyo outside of her dream, what would rule out Maribel landing thousands of years in the past?

Anonymous Fri May 31 07:08:02 2013 No.10972682

>>10972674
>If she eventually starts going to Gensokyo outside of her dream, what would rule out Maribel landing thousands of years in the past?
The question isn't whether she CAN, it's WHY she would do it. Assuming she develops powers rivaling Yukari's, why would she choose to go more than a millennium into the past instead of just traveling to the Gensokyo of her time (assuming it's still around)?

Anonymous Fri May 31 07:15:03 2013 No.10972706

>>10972664
The term "youkai" is supremely broad and the delineation between supernatural humans and youkai is blurry anyways. It's basically a catch-all category for anything supernatural that isn't explicitly not a youkai (e.g. Shinto gods, Celestials, Hermits).

If a human ever gained power to manipulate boundaries, who says he/she ISN'T a youkai? Most magician youkai we've seen for all intents and purposes are basically humans with exceptional lifespans and magical talent anyways, if they weren't former humans to begin with.

Anonymous Fri May 31 07:19:03 2013 No.10972722

>>10972664
>but aren't there many humans with natural talents similar to Maribel's have remained human; and very much explicitly so? I'm just not convinced.
There are also plenty of stories about perfectly normal humans who became youkai just by being REALLY FUCKING MAD/SAD/GLAD.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if a human already gifted with strange powers ended up becoming a youkai.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:23:02 2013 No.10972734 >>10972557 Breasts aren't big enough. Yukari's are bigger.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:25:18 2013 No.10972738 >>10972734 >breasts >canon Best be joking.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:32:02 2013 No.10972748 >>10972640 There's also the dream from Trojan Green Asteroid or whatever that music album was about the spacestation full of crazy animal life.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:35:17 2013 No.10972754 >>10972748 That space station isn't in Gensokyo though.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:38:17 2013 No.10972765 >>10972754 It is Gensokyo...IN SPAAAACE!

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:38:32 2013 No.10972766 >>10972557 If Maribel's Yukari, who's Renko?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:39:17 2013 No.10972768 >>10972765 Unless Gensokyo's boundary magically extended to a space station made in the 21st century then abandoned floating between the Earth and Moon, I don't think so.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:39:47 2013 No.10972770 >>10972766 The first Hakurei.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:42:17 2013 No.10972781 >>10972768 I hate to tell you but that guy spouted Portal 2 meme.

Anonymous Fri May 31 07:45:17 2013 No.10972788

>>10972706
>If a human ever gained power to manipulate boundaries, who says he/she ISN'T a youkai?
I agree that youkai is indeed a very broad term, but I think you're exaggerating. Humans are still humans, regardless of their powers. Reimu has some power over barriers and boundaries. She can go from one side to the screen to the other in HM for example. Yet, noone here would ever state that Reimu is turning into youkai.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:50:02 2013 No.10972801 >>10972781 That pre-dates portal by forever.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:50:32 2013 No.10972799 >>10972706 >>10972722 Gotta explain how half-youkai happens.

Anonymous Fri May 31 07:53:47 2013 No.10972808

>>10972788
Reimu's powers are explicitly divine in origin. which tends to ward off the youkai label.

Again, practically anything supernatural in Japanese folklore can be classified as a youkai unless it is explicitly NOT a youkai. ZUN has some more concrete definitions of youkai in his works but even those tend to be vague.

So no, I don't really see why a human with strange powers (that aren't of divine origin... and even then, some divine spirits are labeled as youkai depending on the work you read) can't be called a youkai.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:54:48 2013 No.10972812 >>10972799 When a youkai fucks a human woman.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:57:02 2013 No.10972823 >>10972812 What about impregnating a cute youkai girl with your sperm?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:58:02 2013 No.10972827 >>10972823 >>10972812 >>10972799 You know, I've always wondered... What happens when two youkai mate? CAN they mate? Like, what if the spirit of a toaster impregnates a bakeneko or something. What's the result?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 07:59:18 2013 No.10972830 >>10972823 >human semen and youkai vagina >youkai semen and human vagina I don't want to know.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:01:03 2013 No.10972835 >>10972827 The resulting kid will be a baker

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:01:47 2013 No.10972837 >>10972823 They become addicted to your cock and can't live without you regularly filling their womb with your hot, thick cum. At least, that's what doujins have taught me.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:04:02 2013 No.10972847 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lafcadio_Hearn >Hearn >Goes to Japan >Changes name to Yakumo ZUN isn't one for subtle references.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:05:48 2013 No.10972850 >>10972812 You mean the other way around.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:06:02 2013 No.10972853 >>10972847 The funny thing is many still not believe they are the same person.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:07:02 2013 No.10972856 >>10972853 >The funny thing is many still not believe they are the same person. Yeah. Even ZUN. Real funny ain't it?

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:08:17 2013 No.10972858
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Every time I see a topic like this I just get mad at Zun for not exploring the immense possibilities of his setting more. He just likes to give pieces around and the line between what is canon and what is just fanfiction is basically nonexistant at this point.
Funny how the worst way to now the story is to play the official games.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:08:32 2013 No.10972860 >>10972847 >ZUN isn't one for subtle references. And neither is Maribel, it seems.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:10:32 2013 No.10972864 >>10972850 A human woman fucks youkai? Sounds like everything Reimu does.

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:10:32 2013 No.10972865

>>10972858
He probably forgot most of his own established canon and lore, and if he tried to make it more clear he'd probably end up retconning even more shit and just making it more confusing until we end up with "Infinite Crisis on Infinite Gensokyos" so he can wipe the slate clean and officially kill off Mima for good.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:12:03 2013 No.10972872 >>10972865 I would be ok with a retcon or even starting from scratch, using all the good we had until now to produce something with a solid plot. I would love it.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:12:33 2013 No.10972870 Yukari doesn't seem to be the kind of youkai to be based off of a human to me though. Besides, it's too cheesy a plot twist for someone like ZUN to pull. Meaning we'll probably never know for sure either way.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:13:02 2013 No.10972879 >>10972557 Yukari is Zun's Bernkastel. Not going to explain shit so people can keep dreaming.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:13:47 2013 No.10972876 >>10972865 >officially kill off Mima for good Good. No more bitching about bringing her back and Marisa's background becomes less clusterfuck.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:14:03 2013 No.10972884 >>10972587 >lives in a dystopian future Ah yes, the dystopian future where all disease has been eradicated and people frequently take space tourism trips.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:15:02 2013 No.10972888 >>10972858 But this is exactly what made Touhou so big. People are filling the holes with their own canon.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:15:03 2013 No.10972885 >>10972876 b-b-b-but muh bones

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:15:32 2013 No.10972886

>>10972865
It wasn't so bad in Touhou 6-9 since there was barely a overarching story anyways.

Now that ZUN is trying to tie together a coherent storyline between all the new games it gets on my nerves. Everyone's motives keep getting retconned to make way for the new conflict that ZUN thinks up of each game.

Byakuren's schtick used to be, basically, "youkai jesus" with Buddhism as a side note to all that. She had a frilly western dress like all the other magicians in the series. Then comes the sudden religious conflict that Miko brings and Byakuren being a Buddhist suddenly becomes the most important part of her character and the next time we see her in Hopeless Masquerade she's wearing a jade bead necklace and a bamboo hat and poses in the most stereotypically Buddhist monk way possible.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:16:47 2013 No.10972891 >>10972886 >poses in the most stereotypically Buddhist monk way possible. And now that I think about it, it's not really a stereotypical pose for monks but more for depictions of Buddha.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:17:02 2013 No.10972898 >>10972865 To be fair, most of the canon post EosD rarely directly contradicts itself.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:17:17 2013 No.10972892 >>10972888 Nah, more like because people are filling the girls' holes with their cum

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:17:32 2013 No.10972894

>>10972886
>is trying to tie together a coherent storyline between all the new games it gets on my nerves
This is the part that always gets me. I usually rarely go over the games and my knowledge of what's canon is just contained into the dialogues during the stages and I had no idea whatsoever we were preparing for a sort of "holy war". Hell, I still have to see trace of it in the games, I just know because people told me.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:17:47 2013 No.10972896 >>10972886 >Everyone's motives keep getting retconned to make way for the new conflict that ZUN thinks up So he's turning Touhou into a Shonen manga.

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:25:47 2013 No.10972925

>>10972894
The reason I'm so miffed about it is partly because Byakuren's introduction hinted at a larger conflict between youkai and humans in the coming games. And that's what has always been one of the major underlying conflicts in Touhou, whether it's the youkai exterminators (aka Reimu) that are in the wrong or the youkai who prey on humans (not necessarily eat them, because that apparently rarely happens now, but harass them all the same).

But then Miko and crew had to butt in the next game and introduce this whole "Shintoism vs. Taoism vs. Buddhism" conflict that didn't even have anything to do with the previous games until now. And suddenly it's not about the whole "humans vs. youkai" thing anymore but "who can wave the biggest religious dick." And this didn't even go anywhere in the plot of Hopeless Masquerade, despite being a purported major theme in it. Instead it was "Kokoro does bad things and the others have to deal with her".

Hopefully.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:26:32 2013 No.10972935 >>10972925 Let me finish my thought. Hopefully Double Dealing Character goes back to the whole humans vs. youkai conflict since apparently the normally peaceful youkai are becoming rowdy in that game.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:28:02 2013 No.10972947 >>10972925

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:28:48 2013 No.10972945 >>10972879 But Bernkastel was a cat.

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:29:02 2013 No.10972951

>>10972884
>For one thing, it doesn't seem to be a particularly happy time, as Maribel says "When was the last time I've seen children smiling so?" and "I thought I also always wanted to in such a country where I can see this kind of smile on these children."[2] It isn't completely devoid of happiness, as there are eating contests in Tokyo, beautiful displays of Mt. Fuji via a half-panoramic film on the train, and lots of chatter surrounding the moon tours. However, the scenic film of Mt. Fuji feels empty to Maribel and the Moon Tours are too expensive for her (and presumably the average person, given that the situation is likely based off of ZUN's feelings about wondering if an average person could ever afford going to the moon in his comments at the end.)

>The outside world also appears to have environmental issues. Maribel comments that she's only ever seen synthetic bamboo shoots,[2] And the cake she's eaten in Magical Astronomy is made with synthetic strawberries. Retrospective 53 Minutes mentions that Mt. Fuji's beauty was restored due to the Mt. Fuji Revival Association. Humanity seems to have become obsessed with environmentalism, as Neo-traditionalism of Japan states "Due to extreme environmentalism, cities have been decorated to look like forests. Like a painted jungle, there is no natural vegetation."

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:29:17 2013 No.10972948 >>10972925 >it's not about the whole "humans vs. youkai" thing anymore but "who can wave the biggest religious dick." So they realized that faith>race? Not bad for a bunch of women bullet-flinging each other.

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:32:03 2013 No.10972967

Could you guys please stop it with the "ZUN is not using his setting to the full potential" claims? At least in relation to the stories in ZUN's music collection, that's ridiculous.

The stories are about two social reject girl who dabble in the occult. At length, they give you some thinking to do about reality perception; CoSD is about how the individual's ideas project onto their reality, and NToJ is about how society's ideas projected into individuals in turn affect them.

That's it. They're not some kind of epic tragic tale of how Gensoukyou was founded because of time travel or whatever. If you want to read/write fanfiction like that, cool. But please don't misunderstand were the focus of the canon really lies.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:33:33 2013 No.10972968 >>10972951 It's just Maribel's POV. Different people view things differently. I wouldn't view that as really dystopian.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:35:47 2013 No.10972979 >>10972967 Ssshhh, those concepts might be 2deep4me for these underaged kids, let them be.

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:35:47 2013 No.10972981
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>>10972945
Ryukishi left people the freedom of choice in what to believe. If people want to believe Bern is real and really there are witches flying around fragments, then it's real.

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:36:33 2013 No.10972984

>>10972967
Why shouldn't we say it? It's true, the setting is barely used at all, mostly because he just throws a couple of pieces rarely matching every year or so and then the community tries to create cohesion.
Small arcs and small stories may have the consistency you speak of, but the overall lore has not. And it's his fault.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:38:17 2013 No.10972990 >>10972988 ... wait, Kasen is an Oni?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:38:18 2013 No.10972986 >>10972967 I think the people who are complaining about the setting and the people who are throwing out wild speculation are two different crowds.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:38:32 2013 No.10972988 >>10972870 >Besides, it's too cheesy a plot twist for someone like ZUN to pull. Isn't that kind of like the whole "Kasen is an Oni" thing that's going on in WaHH? Although I'll be quite amused if she actually isn't.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:39:02 2013 No.10972991 I'm confused about Renko and Maribel's position in the timeline. Did they exist when the events in the official games occurred? The "future" thing makes it seem like they're in a time when Gensokyo's already history.

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:39:02 2013 No.10972992

>>10972984
I'm just talking about ZUN's music collection here. I'll leave the argument in regards of Touhou for another day.

But I guess I could say this; what we consider to be "full potential" is different from person to person. Again, Touhou was never about epic fantasy tales. If you come expecting that, you'd naturally be disappointed.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:40:02 2013 No.10972999 >>10972994 So, Kasen's horns are like Yasu's penis?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:40:47 2013 No.10972994 >>10972990 Ever heard of Schrödinger's Cat? Same thing, only with Hair Ornaments.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:41:03 2013 No.10973004 >>10972991 I thought they live in the same decade as us, near-future and all.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:42:33 2013 No.10973007 >>10972990 People have always suspected it, and the hints in the latest chapter were practically shouting it.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:42:33 2013 No.10973008 >>10972999 Exactly. Since we cannot look what's under those Hair-bags, she keeps fluctuating between a state where she is an Oni and where she isn't. Do not look.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:43:02 2013 No.10973013 What if Kasen is actually Hellboy?

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:43:18 2013 No.10973011

One of the biggest things about the setting that bothers me is how all the various afterlife-related things relate to each other.

Can anybody explain to me how the netherworld and the Sanzu river and Higan and Hell and old Hell and reincarnation and Nirvana are related?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:44:02 2013 No.10973018 >>10973013 What if Kasen is a titan?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:44:32 2013 No.10973016 >>10972991 It's never specified exactly how far in the future they are. And it's not specified whether Gensokyo still exists, only that it has been "forgotten". The Touhou games canonically take place in modern day though.

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:45:47 2013 No.10973020

>>10972988
The Kasen thing can't really be compared to Maribel and Yukari in my opinion though. Not to mention, I don't feel like ZUN has even been trying to hide Kasen's true nature. Read OSP. It basically states she is a youkai, as she could not touch Reimu's amulet without being badly burned.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:46:17 2013 No.10973021 >>10973018 Only Suika.

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:48:03 2013 No.10973027

>>10973011
That reminds me of something:
Celestials live in heaven.
Shinigami regularly harass Celestials because they're not supposed to live that long.
Entrance to heaven is granted by the Yama for the worthy. The Yama are the bosses of the Shinigami.

So if the Celestials live in Heaven, obviously someone let them in there, presumably the Yama. Yet the Shinigami harass them, who work under the Yama.

I don't get this state of affairs.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:48:18 2013 No.10973026 Lafcadio Hearn was a weeaboo who wished to be the little girl so [insert mythological creature here] made him the little girl and gave him boundary hax.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:49:02 2013 No.10973033 >>10973027 Nobody remembers Kishin.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:49:33 2013 No.10973030 >>10973026 >Lafcadio Hearn was a weeaboo who wished to be the little girl so ZUN made him the little girl and gave him boundary hax. FTFY

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:49:48 2013 No.10973031
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>>10972925
>And suddenly it's not about the whole "humans vs. youkai" thing anymore but "who can wave the biggest religious dick
So now 2hu is officially shit because it's trying something new and doesn't cater to your little personal interpretations.
A religion war is bigger and better than busting some minor zako anyway, so it'd better keep going that way.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:52:32 2013 No.10973044 >>10973027 I don't think "heaven" were the Celestials are is the heaven you go to after you die. Miko says she wants to go to heaven, but she's not planning on dying, is she? You do to heaven after reaching enlightenment.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:53:47 2013 No.10973046 >2hu character thread >95 posts and 4 image replies omitted

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:55:47 2013 No.10973056

>>10973011
This. And then there's the Celestial's Heaven, the Lunarian's presumable Heaven, and probably normal Heaven. And I'm sure the Yama's version of Hell is different from Pandemonium, which exist separately as well. And is the Hell as visited by Mary the same Hell as the one Eiki works at?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:56:32 2013 No.10973060 >>10973044 No purgatory in Touhou?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 08:58:18 2013 No.10973070 >>10973056 Mary never visited hell; she just thought she did. Right? Unless I misunderstood something. Because isn't that the plot twist at the very end, when Renko sees the same scenery?

Anonymous Fri May 31 08:58:18 2013 No.10973071

>>10973056
>And is the Hell as visited by Mary the same Hell as the one Eiki works at?
Isn't it made clear that Mary didn't actually visit Hell?
>All of Merry's anxiety was gone. The land under the earth that she had seen wasn't Hell. What she had seen were images of the world of the gods, a place that actually existed.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:03:32 2013 No.10973091 >>10973060 I was under the impression that the Netherworld where Youmu and Yuyuko live was basically purgatory, wasn't it?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:05:47 2013 No.10973099 >>10973091 Nope, that's were the ghosts come waiting to be reincarnated. Yuyuko is the boss because she cannot be reincarnated. Or, that's the impression I'm under.

Anonymous Fri May 31 09:11:32 2013 No.10973118

>>10973056
>>10973011
From PMiSS:

>Road of Liminality entry
>The Sanzu River flows on the other side of the mountains, but you must travel down a certain road before you get there.
>If you don't go down this road, you can't reach the Sanzu River.

>Sanzu River entry
>Gensokyo is on the side of the living, and Higan is on the opposite bank.

>Higan entry
>Compared to the Netherworld where the living can come and go relatively easily, the living cannot go to Higan because of the Sanzu River(*40).
>All people do here is to await the Enma's judgement.
>They don't sleep, eat or talk. All they do is wait, and by doing so they realize that they are dead (*41).
>It's okay if you are sent to the Netherworld, but if you descend into Hell you'll fall outside the circle of transmigration and shall never enjoy the sights of cherry blossoms and the taste of sake again.

>Netherworld entry
>After death, humans pass through the Road of Liminality, cross over the Sanzu River, and receive the Yama's judgment. Depending on the severity of their crimes, they are sent to Hell, to the Netherworld, to Heaven or to other places.
>Among those, the Netherworld is a world where the guiltless dead spend their time as ghosts, until they achieve nirvana or reincarnate.

So, in a nutshell.
>someone dies
>their soul travels down the path of liminality to the Sanzu River
>the Shinigami let them cross
>they reach Higan, where they await judgment by a Yama
>depending on the judgment, they may either go to Hell (if they're bad), the Netherworld (if they're good), or Heaven (if they're REALLY good)
>if you go to Hell, you're stuck there forever in permanent agony
>if you go to the Netherworld, you stay there as a phantom until you reincarnate or reach enlightenment and get a direct ticket to Heaven (?)
>if you go to Heaven you're set for life (or death?)
The ironic part is that once you reach Higan you can't leave but people can come and go from the Netherworld as they please.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:13:32 2013 No.10973125 >>10973060 I don't know exactly. But the heaven were the celestials are and were Miko wants to go has nothing to do with the Yama. I think it's refereed too as "Tenkai" ? So it's not "tengoku"/heaven, but more like a celestial realm.

Anonymous Fri May 31 09:15:47 2013 No.10973133

>>10973118
Also, instead of going to Heaven, you can also be removed from the cycle of reincarnation in another manner, (presumably Buddhist Nirvana) if you hit enlightenment.

Touhou afterlife is a clusterfuck what with trying to make multiple denominations of Shintoism and Buddhism (with a bit of Taoism thrown in) work together anyways.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:16:33 2013 No.10973136 >>10973091 >>10973099 Netherworld pretty much is purgatory, isn't it? You're sent there if you're not evil enough for Hell but not good enough for Heaven and just wait around until you reincarnate.

Anonymous Fri May 31 09:31:02 2013 No.10973183

One thing I'm curious about is whether the Kishin/Shinigami go after humans-turned-(magician) youkai as well.

Celestials and hermits are both regularly harassed for living beyond their human lifespan, but what about youkai like Byakuren? They used to be human, and they've stuck around for far longer than they should have. And what about the ghosts that aren't obediently hanging around in the netherworld? Do the shinigami go after them as well?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:34:32 2013 No.10973193 >Maribel thread >now talking about Touhou theology Quite the derail we're having here.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:34:47 2013 No.10973194 >>10973183 I don't think that humans turning youkai are seen as unnatural. Hermits cast away their mortal flesh in entirely, replacing the vessel to hold their soul. Perhaps that's why they are hunted.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:36:03 2013 No.10973197 Maribel discovered her powers, then gapped back in time to when the boundary was formed so she could get in.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:38:32 2013 No.10973199 File: 690 KB, 480x368, TH105_komachi_ED002.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10973183 Komachi didn't force that ghost to come with her.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:39:47 2013 No.10973204 >>10973197 >time travel I hate it when time travel always turn some writings shitty.

Anonymous Fri May 31 09:40:17 2013 No.10973206

>>10973197
>then gapped back in time to when the boundary was formed so she could get in.
... which is totally unnecessary because she could gap in regardless of whether there was a boundary or not. Her own powers as well as Yukari's have both demonstrated that.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:40:48 2013 No.10973210 >>10973183 I thought Kishin only after heretical beings like hermits?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:42:48 2013 No.10973216 >>10973194 >Hermits cast away their mortal flesh in entirely, replacing the vessel to hold their soul Where does it say this?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:44:04 2013 No.10973223 >>10973210 Wasn't the reason they are considered heretical entirely BECAUSE they lived past their natural lifespan? I don't see how a human-turned-youkai wouldn't be considered heretical by the Yama as well.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:46:19 2013 No.10973228 File: 75 KB, 667x389, 2013-05-31 06 45 15.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10973183 That reminds me, Komachi is in Miko's stage, isn't her job go after Miko and Futo? Then again, she is sleeping...

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:47:33 2013 No.10973235 >>10973216 That's what the known hermits in Touhou did, at least. Like Seiga, she replaced her body with a stick of bamboo. Miko used her sword, Futo used a plate. Read SoPM for details.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:48:03 2013 No.10973242 >>10973228 Its explained in WaHH that it's not her job specifically. At least not when it comes to the more troublesome folks. They send much more powerful beings after those.

Anonymous Fri May 31 09:49:18 2013 No.10973244

>>10973228
Komachi's job is to ferry spirits. She said that there are other shinigami who fight celestials. But in WaHH, she said that the shinigami aren't actually the ones who reap souls. Then they sent the Kishin after Seiga.

>>10973235
I don't remember the Seiga part.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:50:03 2013 No.10973251 >>10973244 It's in her profile, or in SoPM. I'm certain she did it though. That's how she escaped her family and her husband in the first place. They discovered her real corpse, thinking she was dead.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:50:48 2013 No.10973250 >>10973216 In so SoPM, they also can choose how they want to look. Futo was the only one who keep her old appearance, I think.

Anonymous Fri May 31 09:52:34 2013 No.10973259

>>10973235
But that's limited to Taoist Shikaisen type hermits.

Traditional Japanese hermits (sennin) like Kasen (or actually, if Kasen is an oni, we've never actually seen an actual earthly hermit) and Celestials achieve immortality through other means.

Either way, all hermits need to beat away the kishin that come bug them to maintain their immortality. It's obviously not the specific method of immortality that Miko and her followers use that pisses the Yama and kishin off.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:54:33 2013 No.10973265 >>10973250 I think it said they choose to mostly look the same, because people tend to be attached to their old appearances. However Futo was the only one who choose to remain so old-fashioned.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:56:18 2013 No.10973268 >>10973259 I see then. I wonder why hermits get that specific sort of treatment then? Is it simply seen as unnatural to live that long and NOT turn into a youkai or a god?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:57:48 2013 No.10973278 File: 862 KB, 1060x1508, _7th_Natural_18.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 09:59:49 2013 No.10973286 >>10973268 Because is WRONG

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:00:48 2013 No.10973290 >>10973206 If she went into Gensokyo at present then they couldn't both exist at the same time. Going back in time allows both to be active at same time.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:01:48 2013 No.10973294 Here is a nice light novel about her becoming Yukari. http://www.mangapark.com/manga/touhou-yumeutsutsu-doujinshi

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:03:18 2013 No.10973298 >>10973294 > Average 10 / 10 out of 9464 total votes. That's why voting systems don't work.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:09:50 2013 No.10973311 >>10973268 Immortals have no problem being human, just can't die.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:11:48 2013 No.10973317 >>10973311 My guess is that they wouldn't go after immortals because they are well, immortal. Even if they tried to kill them they wouldn't die.

Anonymous Fri May 31 10:15:03 2013 No.10973325

>>10973268
Speaking of youkai and gods, is it possible for a youkai to become a god? I mean, the line is pretty blurred in Shintoism already, and it's not like they don't stem from similar origins. It's just that youkai generally are born from fear and gods from reverence. But what if, say, people began to worship, say, Cirno? Maybe Gensokyo is suddenly assaulted by monstrous frogs and Cirno saves the day and begins to be revered as the protector of Gensokyo (from evil frogs). Could she become a god?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:18:03 2013 No.10973333 >>10973317 Then why not go after the youkai? And the gods? There's only like two people that are actually completely unkillable and that would be Kaguya and Mokou.

Anonymous Fri May 31 10:19:18 2013 No.10973335
File: 94 KB, 428x650, 1328456049137.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10973325
>is it possible for a youkai to become a god?
yes.

it is also possible for a god to become a youkai

>Maybe Gensokyo is suddenly assaulted by monstrous frogs and Cirno saves the day and begins to be revered as the protector of Gensokyo (from evil frogs). Could she become a god?
I think it would take more than that, but technically, yes.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:23:49 2013 No.10973349 >>10973333 I don't know for sure, but perhaps because it is considered the natural way of things. While for some reason, becoming a hermit is not.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:25:18 2013 No.10973354 >>10973268 Because it makes a cool story for someone to cheat death and then get chased by death gods

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:36:04 2013 No.10973384 Gods are just youkai with pretty names

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:39:49 2013 No.10973388 >>10973384 God, why gods in Touhou are piss-weak except the Dragon?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:39:49 2013 No.10973389 >>10973384 that's what Byakuren said well, more or less

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:41:19 2013 No.10973394 >>10973388 There are piss-weak youkai just as there are piss-weak gods.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:41:49 2013 No.10973396 >>10973384 Gods like Kanako and Suwako maybe. But what about the top dogs like Izanami and Izanagi?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:42:04 2013 No.10973399 >>10973388 That's just how Shinto gods work.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:43:19 2013 No.10973400 >>10973388 Eirin's pretty strong.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:44:49 2013 No.10973403 >>10973384 They aren't exactly metaphysically working the same ways. Roughly, gods are based on faith. Youkai are based on terror. Source: Zun.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:44:49 2013 No.10973404 >>10973396 Greater Gods. They're true gods, are they not?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:45:04 2013 No.10973406 >>10973388 Because 8 Million Gods. Most gods are not super powerful or anything. Really powerful gods are broken as fuck. Just look at moon sisters. Suwako in her prime was also a monster.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:46:20 2013 No.10973408 >>10972618 I know this has no validity, but it reminded me of this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKx4lKYuXLk

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:47:34 2013 No.10973410 >>10973396 Yorihime summoned Amaterasu. You don't go higher than that. And it was said territory gods like Suwako can be stronger than highest gods in their territory.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:47:35 2013 No.10973411 >>10973403 >Youkai are based on terror. Even this isn't completely true. For example, you can hardly say that fairies are borne from fear of nature, especially given their playful nature.

Anonymous Fri May 31 10:51:34 2013 No.10973421

>>10973403
I think what Byakuren was trying to get at is that what gods call "faith" is just fear with another name.

"Don't walk into the woods at night or you will be eaten by the youkai" isn't that far from "don't anger the local god or you will be struck with divine retribution".

Granted, most gods also add a carrot to their stick with a "if you revere your god then you will be blessed with good fortune" part.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:51:34 2013 No.10973422 >>10973411 Fairies are spirits of nature. I doubt they're youkai.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:53:50 2013 No.10973425 >>10973410 >summon Japanese gods to use their power Reimu can do that too. It's just they don't assume direct control of the gods themselves.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 10:55:34 2013 No.10973429 >>10973422 Spirits of nature are youkai. Nearly every supernatural creature outside of gods (and even them, depending on who you ask) is a youkai. That includes everything from fairies to vampires to gap hags to nekomata to oni.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 11:01:50 2013 No.10973446 >>10973404 >They're true gods, are they not? Is there even such a distinction in Touhou?

Anonymous Fri May 31 11:08:36 2013 No.10973462

>>10973421
You can think it's the same thing all you want, but canonically it's not exactly the same thing. Close, but not the same thing.

Gods need faith badly. Youkai can live on unbeliever if these unbelievers still remember stories about them.

The distinction is quite murky, and this is something the fanon loves to deconstruct to death, but Zun has made abundantly clear that Gods and Youkai are related, but not the same, and abide to slightly different rules.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 11:24:22 2013 No.10973506 >>10973462 Gods live on faith. Youkai live on fear. Many religions through the history were based on fear. "Sacrifice your sons or sun won't raise tomorrow" etc. Suwako's cult was based around fear of her curse gods too.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 11:29:36 2013 No.10973518 Speaking of gods, Sanae is classified as one, is she not? She already has a nifty power over miracles, but does her godhood give her the perks of eternal youth and life and the like as well?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 11:31:52 2013 No.10973524 >>10973518 Half god. She's a slutty Jesus.

Anonymous Fri May 31 11:32:06 2013 No.10973526

>>10973518
As far as I understood it, she's a a human well on her way to become a real god.

I always found it interesting how Suwako and Kanako are the ones always insisting she is a god. Suwako even gets angry with Sanae when she refers to herself as a human in 'Soku.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 11:34:06 2013 No.10973536 I wonder if Miko would've been better off just becoming a god instead of a shikaisen.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 11:37:22 2013 No.10973545 >>10973536 But then she would need worshipers and all that crap.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 11:41:36 2013 No.10973561 File: 328 KB, 1400x1200, 1365694693029.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Who is this?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 11:42:36 2013 No.10973564 >>10972557 I wish Maribel had glasses. She would be so cute.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 11:59:35 2013 No.10973616 >>10973561 I hate how it's literally impossible to identify a touhou if she's not wearing her hat.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 12:01:20 2013 No.10973623 >>10973616 Not true, name all the blonde and purple eye'd touhous.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 12:01:36 2013 No.10973624 >>10973616 That's Yukari nee-sama.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 12:20:50 2013 No.10973672 >>10973623 It doesn't need to be a touhou, blonde and purple eyes doesn't really guarantee it's Yukari unless there is some characteristic which is Yukari only.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 19:56:51 2013 No.10975475 >>10973616 >what is Byakuren

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 21:22:23 2013 No.10975924 >>10975475 Paint bucket hair doesn't count.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 21:44:19 2013 No.10976018 >>10972925 ITS ONLY A .5 GAME BRO

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 21:59:38 2013 No.10976068 >>10976018 It started with TD though.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 22:07:53 2013 No.10976102 >>10973616 You can recognize Futofuto a miles away even without hat. She's basically Shingyoku with grey hair and skirt.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 22:18:08 2013 No.10976158 >>10972638 ZUN will resolve this by introducing yet another boundary manipulator. Then you can debunk every myth AND have a character that Maribel can overshadow.

Anonymous Fri May 31 22:49:23 2013 No.10976276

This is a good chapter on gods and youkai, except... it says divine spirits are distinct from youkai, and then in the final paragraph says they're another kind of youkai. Is it a mistranslation, or ZUN being ZUN again?

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia/Chapter_25

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 23:19:53 2013 No.10976404 >>10976276 ZUN being ZUN. "Oh, they're not youkai. But they are. In a way." That being said, there's a very noticeable lack of gods in Touhou given that Shintoism states they're everywhere.

Anonymous Fri May 31 23:36:38 2013 No.10976480
File: 38 KB, 640x400, YuugenMagan_ref1alt.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10973616
If you can't recognize YuugenMagan with or without hat then something is wrong with you.

The same is true of literally every other character in Highly Responsive to Prayers. I haven't thoroughly evaluated any of the others, but HRtP had very unique character designs, which were in general a lot less bishoujou than any of the subsequent games.

>>10976404
That's probably because they don't usually attack the player.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 23:45:09 2013 No.10976505 >>10973325 gods and youkai are the same, they just have different names because of how they are treated by humans who said something like this? i swear someone did

>>	Anonymous Fri May 31 23:58:39 2013 No.10976556 >>10976505 Byakuren. Clever girl, she is.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 1 16:54:44 2013 No.10979811 >>10972557 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 2 11:09:16 2013 No.10983691 File: 42 KB, 192x256, CiLRTWatatsukinoToyohime[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10976158 >introducing yet another boundary manipulator Toyohime says hi.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 2 11:30:53 2013 No.10983772 >>10983691 Not a real touhou.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 3 01:11:19 2013 No.10986387 >>10983772 >still in denial

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 4 17:37:06 2013 No.10993535 bump

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 4 17:38:51 2013 No.10993538 >>10986387 Who are you quoting?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 4 21:35:23 2013 No.10994416 >>10976158 I thought there was some canon with Reimu manipulating a boundary. Anyone able to back this up? A zun image with her in control of a small gap. Reimu is nearly a yokai in her own way anyway

Space Flower !JLY7OHoMIg Tue Jun 4 22:56:53 2013 No.10994718 [DELETED]

>>10972847
I'm glad to see this, I though I would be the first to point this out.
We know the result that Maribel becomes Yukari, but I wonder if we'll find out how soon. Perfect Memento notes that Maribel often travels to the Gensokyo of hundreds of years past, so maybe after her powers mature and she loses her humanity she goes to Gensokyo's past....?

There are other random secretive possibilities that seem like they'll never be revealed, like Sakuya being Lunarian.

Space Flower !JLY7OHoMIg Tue Jun 4 23:07:22 2013 No.10994769
File: 27 KB, 192x224, sc215.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10972638
I don't know what gives you such confidence. Zun has been asked more than once about the relationship between Yakumo and Hearn, and his only response is that in the past there was a Lafciado Hearn. Why else would he bring up a man who traveled from the west to the east and changed his surname from Hearn to Yakumo? Do you have an alternate explanation for how Lafciado ties the two together?
>>10994416
Are you thinking of Fantasy Nature?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 4 23:13:52 2013 No.10994788 >>10994416 She has a bunch of boundary-traversing teleport attacks.

Anonymous Tue Jun 4 23:29:38 2013 No.10994853
File: 205 KB, 500x500, Cute Seihou.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10972587
>>10972884
>>10972951
>>10972968
What if Touhou and Seihou takes place in the same universe?
And the outside world is all screwed up?

ZUN did help make the series and one of the games had Reimu and Marisa in them and another had Yuuka.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 4 23:32:52 2013 No.10994864 >>10993538 ur mom while i was railing her lmao

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 4 23:35:22 2013 No.10994872 >>10994853 I think Seihou is an alternate universe to Touhou and not just the outside world, Maribel's world doesn't seem so crazy to have all of that destruction and flying robot maids.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 6 15:51:47 2013 No.11002234 bump

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 6 16:29:32 2013 No.11002370 >>10972557 Not yet but she will be when she ends up in Gensokyo's past and figures out how to stay there while she's awake. She will become the old hag we all know and love once her powers become perfected.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 6 19:53:04 2013 No.11003010 bump

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 7 16:01:28 2013 No.11006881 >>10972827 You get Lion-O with brave little toaster instead of head. With cape included. I'm masturbating to this thought right now.

Anonymous Fri Jun 7 16:28:29 2013 No.11007009

>>10972827
Demonic foxes can explicitly beget offspring much as normal foxes do, see Genkuro for example. There are also some monster pairs like Datsueba and Keneo, or Jakotsu-baba and Jagoemon, but I don't know if they have children. Chinese mythology is much more conductive to demon crossbreeding, with Journey to the West featuring an episode where a heavenly bull is chastised by her cave goddess wife for cheating on her with a fox spirit (and they have a fire-breathing nuisance of a son, who is later paired with a snake girl).

The Japanese Imperial family tree also has a very large number of bestial gods, counting several snake-gods and at least two sharks among their ancestors.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 7 17:25:44 2013 No.11007177 >>11002370 we do not love that hag.

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