Thread for 07th Expansion shit #2

[Anonymous No.]

In Chapter 8 of higurashi what's happening when Takano is captured and brought back to the orphanage? They're doing something but everything is covered with XXXX and it seems kind of random. Is there any info on this

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

The rape stork is being summoned.

[Anonymous No.]

I don't wanto to know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10729385
i must know

[Anonymous No.]

Haha what.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10728275
>Takano
>Orphanage
But Takano is an old man...

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730150
miyo

[Anonymous No.]

>>10728275
Miyoko doesn't know how to describe it? Mangagamer's incompetence? I dunno.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730154
But Miyo doesn't exist at that point...

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730145
Spoiler for ya OP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo_Bridge_Incident

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730173
I don't get it and I read Higurashi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730177
Did you skip shit or something?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730222
No, I read it a while ago and may have forgotten things.
Please freshen my memory up

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730228
The real life Marco Polo Bridge Incident is mentioned as a possible consequence of Hinamizawa Syndrome, and as a motivation for the government to cover the disease up.

It's explained by Koizumi early in Matsuribayashi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730228
The real life Marco Polo Bridge Incident is mentioned as a possible consequence of Hinamizawa Syndrome, and as a motivation for the government to cover the disease up.

It's explained by Koizumi early in Matsuribayashi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10728275
A simple search would have given you the answer (like http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1190141761 for instance) but I guess that if you could do that, you would.

Basically, she and her friends are subjected to the "legendary" punishments of her orphanage.
For those who need to know:
The first one in buried in the chicken lot with only her head above ground, and the chicken peck her eyeballs.
The second one is locked in a metal locker on which they let cold water run (so it's freezing inside) and they hit the locker with wooden blades (can render you deaf and will at best cause dizzyness or sickness).
Miyoko is brought to the employees' toilets - old style - and forced to lick it clean, then stripped naked, placed in a metal cage and plunged into the sewage (is that a word?). Rince and repeat for a couple of days apparently, until the Professor Hifumi Takano found the orphanage.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730274
>then stripped naked
Wait, did that really happen? I didn't notice that in Mangagamer's version.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730274
Where did he get this information from?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730274
Where is this sourced from? The original jp version of the game?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730274
What kind of normal piece of shit would do something so cruel to orphan lolis?

The part where they strip her naked is kind of hot, though. I have a huge humiliation fetish. Should I feel like a bad person?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730274
Shitty theory: "Nomura" is actually Eriko. And Erika is her daughter.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730274
So the whole XXXXXX thing was just MG's bullshit?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730298
More or less.
The XXXX are part of the original btw. They're in the JP version. (can't say for the French but I guess they are)
Judging from the name of the punishments and from the bits of texts that are not XXXX, you can sort of fill in the blanks. 2ch had an entire thread about it but I can't be arsed to find it.
I forgot one girl actually, she was rolled in a futon or matress? then hung from the ceiling and beaten with wooden sticks - hurts but leaves no marks I guess.
At one point Miyo says that her grandfather gave her back "the right to speak, the right to stand, the right to wear clothes, the right to be a human being" so I extrapolate that she must have been gagged naked and prostrated into that metal cage. On the somehow "bright" side, if she was in a cage covered in human feces they probably didn't gang rape her.
And now that I said it, I'm certain there must exist a doujin somewhere about it...

[Anonymous No.]

I wish Takano used all that money to hunt down and torture those idiots and all their families, instead of doing her little genocide in hinamizawa.
well, the genocide idea comes way later when everything crumbles, and I guess she was more hurt at those for hifumi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730431
Thanks for the clarification.

[Anonymous No.]

Nurse Takano is pretty lewd.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730480
she also did lewd things in her political career, I remember her saying at a party/conference, something like "all the things Ive done to get here"

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730499
You're lewd for getting dirty thoughts from that!

[Anonymous No.]

hifumis friend, the one sponsoring him, was part of unit 731, right? cause he became pharma industry director and all that.
I wonder if hifumi was part of it too, all the things he must have done...
Mion-Shion grandfather was part of it, Kazai (is that written right?) use to tell Shion a funny little story how grandpa started the family whealth by selling canned food in the black market, the food was made of humans and was a secretly made by the unit at war time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730510
I know, Im sorry...

but how was she supposed to advance while being a woman at that time? nobody would want to make business with her, and she didnt get full support until later.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730536
Don't be sorry. Takano is the embodiment of lewdness anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

Why the fuck is Rena the one on the cover of the final Higurashi game? Why not Takano or someone actually relevant?

Something like this would make so much more sense.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730597
Yeah, advertise the plot twist on the cover. Great idea. Why'd no one think of this?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730604
Why not? It was already make clear in Chapter 7.
I'm just saying Takano being on the cover would make more sense.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730536
Tomitake Joji-aniki wouldn't want to fuck a dirty non-virgin. Your theory makes no sense.

>>10730597
Why is Rena so useless? She is a pretty good character, but her relevance to the plot is almost non-existent.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730632
R07 must have a massive boner for her. She's the only one who appeared in his Leaf Fight cards. Maybe he created her before he made Higurashi?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730615
Yeah, because ONLY people who have played the seventh game would ever see the cover of the eighth, right? Use your head, man.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730668
It's like you're saying the real covers don't spoil shit. They tell you who's going to go fucking insane.

[Anonymous No.]

I've never read higurashi because I was afraid of "horrible" mangagamer translation everyone was talking about
but here it seems that is not the case

what the fuck have I been hesitating for? fuck

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730696
Their translation IS awful.

It's readable, but that doesn't mean we should discourage fan translations. We really need one.

http://whenwetranslate.livejournal.com/

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730696
It's pretty horrible. I remember one bit where the translator/editor confuses geometry and geography.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730646
>>10730674
How can anyone hate his art?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730732
I haven't noticed anything major. Post some proof, chap. Also, that group is dead.

[Anonymous No.]

Wait what, so Higurashi still doesn't have a proper fan-translation?

I thought it got a fan-translation years ago or something.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730747
They are homosexuals.

[Anonymous No.]

Ive been hearing minagoroshi drama cd (Ill up a little later) and I figured out something at the scene when rika invites takano and tomitake to the shrine.
takano admires oyashirosama, cause she had the power to set a new order (the one shes looking for where her parents dont die, hifumi doesnt go cronic depressed and herself doesnt get tortured), but her vision of that power is only cruel and brutal, while hanyuus, while having that, also have hopes and dreams of a better future.
its really sad when hanyyu starts crying and even rika doesnt know whats going on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730755
They say "proper", despite never giving any solid evidence.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730632
hes in love with her, pitiful standars are meaningless.

I would let her do me things, hehehe.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730766
Well, I'm sorry. I don't know much about the fan translation scene since I read raw.

[Anonymous No.]

Terrible but successful anime adaptation --> one of the worst fanbases ever --> anime licensed in 'Murrica --> Mangagamer decides to """translate""" the novels --> Shmion fears a Cease and Desist from Mangagamer and stops translating.

Being Higurashi is suffering.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730771
lol fuck mangagamer xD

There's no reason for anyone to fear a c&d over a 7th Expansion game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730752
It's not dead. They always do that.

Do you want to have Mangagamer's translation forever? I'm not telling you to wait for the fan translation, I just don't understand why you are against it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730780
Who said I'm against it. I'm asking why you think the translation is bad.

How is it not dead?

[Anonymous No.]

Does anybody else love （￣３￣）の人？

His shit is hilarious

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm1104401

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSC12J9aHxk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1gFgOLCOn0

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730769
The guy you are replying to hates that new group for some reason. Don't listen to him.

He must have bought MG's expensive shit and now he is pissed off.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730776
Mangagamer can send a C&D if they want.

[Anonymous No.]

Someone should edit the original sprites and fix those fucking hands.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730796
Just play the PS2 or DS version or get used to it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730787
...How did you come to that conclusion? I haven't bought any of their Higurashi "shit".
I'm simply asking why you're saying their work is shit without providing evidence. You hate monger, you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730794
R07 doesn't care if people translate it. They didn't send a c&d to the other group who released the first game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730799
I'm already used to it.

But I don't get it. Why spend so much time making a boring PS2 patch instead of editing the hands.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730809
Can't you read? Mangagamer is not R07. They bought the rights and I'm pretty sure they would care if people translated it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730813
>They didn't send a c&d to the other group who released the first game.

Suck my cock, cocksucker.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730771
Shmion's fantranslation is sanctioned by 07th Expansion. Mangagamer actually already tried sending a C&D and Ryukishi told them to fuck off.

[Anonymous No.]

minagoroshi drama cd

http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=view&tid=422364

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730850
Found the relevant blog posts: http://sonozakifutagotachi.blogspot.ca/2009/07/extremely-important-news.html
http://sonozakifutagotachi.blogspot.ca/2009/08/welcome-back.html

[Anonymous No.]

Currently reading umineko ep 1. Watched some of the anime(unfortunately) months back. I know it gets good, but my god reading through it is almost like a chore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730887
I enjoyed the family reunion shit the first time around.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730838
They released the first game before Mangagamer became interested in Higurashi.

You are wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730887
It's a chore in pretty much every episode up until the family dinner.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730850
Why didn't he tell Deen to fuck off, then?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730912
You could read the above links.

[Anonymous No.]

Ryukishi got the whole red text thing from Jesus.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730987
The red text hurts my eyes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10731017
Must suck when EVA or Dlanor were on the screen.

[Anonymous No.]

Rika mom was cool ;_;

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>10731640
She was a hysterical bitch.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10731668
She was worried about her daughter, faggot.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>10731673
She abused her daughter and imagined that the villagers were systematically undermining her role as Rika's mother. Instead of acting maturely and trying to heal the rift in her relationship with Rika, she just hit her and blamed the villagers for her failure as a mother.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10731685
That doesn't change that she was worried about her daughter.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>10731719
She reminds me of Rosa. She abuses her daughter then out of guilt for her actions overreacts in the opposite direction in a deleterious manner.

Thinking that her daughter getting sick was due to the tests was wrong and she jumped to conclusions without listening to anyone.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730786
very funny, thanks for the links.

[Anonymous No.]

Anyone brave enough to explore http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://07th-expansion.net//*

For R07 images? My computer can't handle all the data. I did find this though.

[Anonymous No.]

This is the exact opposite of what this game needed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730747
It's an acquired taste.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730887
Serious pacing issues are serious. The first Umineko ep doesn't get good until the very end, and all the first four doesn't get good until the family conference at least.

Although not perfect, Chiru is far better paced.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10732485
The pacing issues can probably be blamed on Umineko being a serial novel. A chapter every 6 months, so you'll probably need some refreshing on the setting and characters. Umineko 1-4 needed more absurd humor.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10732500
Yes and no, because that what the TIPS are for, and Chiru doesn't hesitate to skip forward when it should.

No, the pacing issues are here because Ryukishi tried to cash on the genre he created with Higurashi: slice-of-lifey and cute until the disasters happens. It was all a matter of atmosphere. But unfortunately it just didn't work for Umineko. The slice-of-life parts were boring as hell, undermining the impacts of the murders.

I blame the metaworld and the fact that the conference is already muddy to begin with. The first undermines any tentative of instating a naive atmosphere in the board, and the second destroys any attempt to be light-hearted in the beginning. As you cannot enjoy the atmosphere on the beginning, you're just left with waiting for the real plot to kick in.

It's a shame that Ryukishi took four games to understand the fact that what was working with Higurashi didn't work with Umineko anymore. Chiru is far, far better in this regard.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10732593
It's odd because I never noticed anything of the sort. I found many of these fluff scenes to be pretty refreshing, actually. The BGM helps a lot in this regard.

[Anonymous No.]

first 4 arcs drama cds

http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=view&tid=422606

[Anonymous No.]

How can he see her?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10732036
None of you are brave enough to load 56k links?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10735900
>dat bra
Ryu should write a porn version of Higurashi and draw the lewd sprites himself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10736144
He did draw a naked Satoko in the VN.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730887
>almost like a chore.
The music should make it worth your time by itself. What kind of person isn't instantly entrapped by Umineko's music? The sound effects even.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10736144
ass

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730305
You should. I bet you also fapped hard when a bunch of goats stripped Ange NAKED in EP8.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10738310
Her shameful pubic hair... exposed to the world...

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730431
>At one point Miyo says that her grandfather gave her back "the right to speak, the right to stand, the right to wear clothes, the right to be a human being"
Magic is the only thing that can grant that right. I think this pretty much confirmed the LambdaHifumi theory.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730887
Try taking drugs. It makes for a really unique Umineko experience.

>>10730902
He did get a lot better in Umineko though. All those `Wait, what the fuck happened to Satoshi? And what the fuck is Oyashiro-sama' were way worse than anything Umineko had.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10731736
>I blame the metaworld and the fact that the conference is already muddy to begin with.
What about the fact that George is a total spiteful faggot and a /r9k/-type loser, Jessica is a weird, shallow, vapid cunt, and Maria spoke like a caveman for some reason. It made what was supposed to be fun into a much less enjoyable scene and did nothing to calm you down from the fact that you know that there are about to be mass murder. Also, the disaster was slowly introduced in Higurashi, which amplified the atmosphere of both, while in Umineko it went from George ordering Shannon to marry him to finding bodies the next morning.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10738425
Hifumi is Nanjo.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10738492
>what the fuck happened to Satoshi?
I liked that. Satoshi is my favorite male character after all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10738817
>>10738425
This might sound crazy, but I think that Okonogi is Okonogi. What do you guys think?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10738884
Okonogi and Okonogi are twins.

[Anonymous No.]

Why wasn't Ange raped in Rokkenjima?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10738984
She was, why do you think she loves her nii-chan so much? <3

[Anonymous No.]

>>10738991
Ange never went to Rokkenjima with Battler.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10739037
Didn't she go in any of the previous years; like, before the main events?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10739064
But he didn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10739064
Okay, so she was raped as a 5-year old.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10738991
>>10739068
I was talking about 1998 Rokkenjima. Why didn't they rape her?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10738822
I'd take reading the Satoshi stuff 5 times over reading Satoko's boring shit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10738425
lambda is a paper candy doll.
bern is a stray cat rescued by AuAu.

AuAu made them all, theres no crossover.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10739260
Shit like this must be very subtle since I never noticed this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10739260
Lambda's Diary TIP goes a long way toward providing evidence against what you just said, as well as Bernkastel's Letter about Rule X. Not to mention that Bernkastel appears in Higurashi...

[Anonymous No.]

>>10739268
Not canon unless Valentines Day, White Day, and Game Master are also taken seriously.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10739277
So all TIPs are automatically not canon just because some of them are obviously jokes?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10739283
Yes for Tsubasa.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10739268
bern is the "baba" that goes to little miyo to tell her if she chooses to live or die.

thats why she is mentioned in higurashi, its the things that Rika says much later.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10739291
Doesn't she also appear in Saikoroshi?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10739296
I dont remember that in saikoroshi, I would need to check it out again.

-------

DJCDs:
http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=view&tid=423067

[Anonymous No.]

so hanyuu is jesus

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730274
>>10730431
Well shit, that almost makes Beato seem merciful. What were the odds that so many sadistic serial killers would be gathered in one place?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10744046
Mmhm, Beato wasn't doing it to punish anyone, so she gave everyone quick deaths.

It's interesting how people say shit about how she just snapped and decided to kill everyone, but nothing like that happened and that wasn't what was on her mind at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10744140
Not in the Meta world, where she kinda was punishing Battler and went all out on Rosa. Then she seemed to really like Evatrice's exploits which I found odd, because of Maria.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10744162
I admit that what happened at that part in EP3 still confuses me. It seems obvious that the killer of Rosa and Maria at that point was not Beatrice, at the very least, because she never targeted Maria like that early on in the other games. And the style of killing is completely different, at the very least for Rosa. Eva did have a motive for killing Rosa at that point, and you could even say she didn't want Maria to be left as a witness, but... Given how Eva is portrayed in EP8, I'm still not sure that she actually killed outside of (perceived) self-defense, which I don't think applies in this specific scenario with Rosa. Beatrice was alive throughout all of EP3, but there was another killer running around, and yet the scenario is completely different from the EP7 tea party for numerous reasons. I don't think Kyrie or Rudolf even found the gold or learned about the bomb in this one, so how would they be killers? And then there's the later deaths...

[Anonymous No.]

>>10744210
Is there anyone else it could have been to kill Maria and Rosa? Beato never killed Maria (directly). The unreliable examination says that she was strangled. Perhaps she got upset after Rosa was killed like in EP7, but Beato could have just told her her to close her eyes and LOLmagic to get her to shut up (and further support the legend of the witch). But she theoretically wouldn't bother if the epitaph had already been solved. Eva also killed Battler at the end too (presumably not fantasy), something that Beato wouldn't have done.

I've had a hard time reconciling that with what is shown about Eva later own too. She seemed pretty shocked that Kyrie killed Maria ("Even Maria?"), but there is really no other person who I can think that did it. That cigarette of Hideyoshi's that Kyrie found was pretty suspicious and the lie pretty well shows that they were the collaborators on this one, but if it was both of them (Hideyoshi was in on it), then why did she need to think so much to solve that idiotic riddle? It doesn't matter though, because they almost certainly were the collaborators. Yet, she seemed to think that it was all an act before. Seems odd that she would just jump straight to murder over a little gold.

Maybe she went crazy after finding the gold. People do do crazy shit after finding that gold. It would at least explain those ``headache'' (if nothing else).

Though, I'll also admit that I do lack love. Perhaps that's why I never really got that one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10744210
>>10744282
You guys are overthinking this. The answer is actually pretty simple: EVA-Beatrice did it with magic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10744306
As much as I hate EVA-Beatrice for giving these reds...
>No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game.
>Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board
...Yeah, she fucking denied herself, unless maybe if you count "a witch who still possesses a human body" as a "human."

[Anonymous No.]

>>10744321
Did she know the truth though?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10744324
The red doesn't work like that. You don't need to know the truth. If you try to say something that isn't true in red, you'll be cut off.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10744306
Goat.

>>10744321
The title of witch is passed around pretty lightly. (And if you want to stretch it to the limits, even Keiichi gained the title `Magician of Words'.) After the mansion blew up and the gold was lost, 1998 Eva was still able to pass the title of Golden Witch to Ange.

>>10744335
I wonder. If Evatrice WAS in fact human, then that red would be meaningless, as only witches can use red (as seen when Battler's ``Natsuhi is not the culprit'' was rejected. But that would make other things much weirder, so at least in Meta, she is a witch, I think. Also even after realizing the truth, Battler had his red rejected by Dlanor until he repeated it in gold. And for an absurdity fit for some blue, it could have been her first time to use red, so she didn't have that restriction, much like Battler could say that he was Asumu's son a few times before he couldn't anymore.

Not that I'm agreeing with the goat.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10744366
"It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born." could be said because it's true. "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that you [Battler] were born." could not be said because it was false. In short, Asumu gave birth to an Ushiromiya Battler but it was not the one standing before Beatrice (explained in EP8 when it was made known that Rudolf switched Kyrie's and Asumu's kids). In that situation it had nothing to do with whether he was human or not. I guess Beatrice gave him temporary red privileges using her status as a witch. But in EP5, it seems that nobody wanted to do that for him. Even beyond that limit of humans not being able to use it, though, there's that Knox rule that says that the detective cannot use 'supernatural agencies.' However, in EP4 Battler was the detective and I guess that rule was simply not enforced because Dlanor wasn't present.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10744398
Fair enough. Then Evatrice really was real (or at least as real as Shkanontrice), and was part of Eva, so Eva really did kill Maria and Rosa. Perhaps she was as fucked up as Yasu.

[Anonymous No.]

hanyuu is the most autistic r07 girl

[Anonymous No.]

>>10748699
How? She's not even close to autistic, much less more autistic than Rena gets, or Maria.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10748706
au au au au au au au au

[Anonymous No.]

>>10748744
That's not autistic, that's moe.

Moe is not always equal to autism. Or course, 95% of the time, a moe character is made by autistic people for autistic people, but that's not always the case.

Anyway, I fucking like this comic where Hanyuu is a villain.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749022
記者　あなたの作品にエヴァはどういう影響を与えたか？

竜騎士07「世界観を考察するという遊び方を教えてくれました。OPでチラリと映るあの光の巨人の正体は？とか、人類補完計画とは何なのか？とかそして、この遊び方は、じつはどんなゲームやアニメ。物語にも適用できることに気付きました。ひょっとすると、「ひぐらしのなく頃に」という、考えて遊ぶという世界観に多大な影響をおよぼしているかもしれません。「ひぐらし」は、その遊び方を、改めて提示してみせたに過ぎず、その意味でEVAがなければ生まれなかったに違いない作品と言い切れるかもしれません。」

記者　エヴァについての思いや熱意をどうぞ

竜騎士07「EVAがゲーム・シナリオの世界におよぼした影響はいまだ計り知れません。あらゆる表現・演出が、いまだEVAを越えることができていないのは、作品がずば抜けて素晴らしいことでもあり、同時に、その後に続く自分たちの不甲斐なさでもあるかもしれませんね。この素晴らしき物語から、私たちは何を得て、何をつむいでいくのか。EVAはよかった、だけで終わらせてしまっては、私たちは何も学んでいないように思います。この作品から何かをくみ取り、そしてアニメやゲームが本当におもしろいコンテンツであることを知らしめていけるように、自分ももっともっと努力していかなくてはならないと思っています。」

[Anonymous No.]

Ryukishi07 and Nasu talk about the influence of Evangelion on their works

>http://yukidotn.blog64.fc2.com/blog-entry-49.html

Someone care to translate?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749025
奈須きのこ「いろいろな娯楽を当たり前のものとして消費していた20代前半のころ。“この娯楽がある、この時代に生まれてよかった”と気づかせてくれた最初の作品です。正直、それまでアニメはあまり見ていませんでしたが、そんな偏見を破壊してくれたのがエヴァでした。第1話を見たときの衝撃は今でも忘れられません。何度も見返し、そのたび“とにかく走り出さなくっちゃ”と背中を押してくれたアニメです。背中を押していたモノが何かは、怖くて振り返れなかったので分析していませんが(笑)。最高の娯楽というものは、見た人間を同じ世界に引き込むものだと思います。自分もエヴァにわしづかみにされ、トランク1つでこの世界に飛び込んだ1人です。」

記者 エヴァが大ヒットしたのは何故だと思いますか?

奈須きのこ「デザイン、画像、シナリオ、演出、音楽、斬新さ、といった全ての面で、他の作品たちと比べあまりにも特出していたこと。また、作品自体の力は当然として、あの時代にピタリとはまっていたという点。あのころの社会的に希望の見えない閉塞感と、なんとか自己を救済して社会と折り合いをつけようと、のたうちまわるシンジのありかたはキレイにはまっていたと思います。」

竜騎士07「まず映像的世界観の完成度の高さと、ずば抜けた演出表現。これだけの月日がたっても色あせぬ演出を持つ作品は、後にも先にもこれしか知りません。そして、全貌をにおわせながらも決して明かさぬ設定的世界観じゃないでしょうか。」

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749022
>>10749025
>>10749028
It's something about Ryukishi07 and a far inferior author being influenced by Evangelion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10730902
so did I
episode 1 is one of the best ones

[Anonymous No.]

>>10744408
no, she just pushed Rosa on the fence, accidentally killed her. Tried to silence Maria, choked her to death. Then it escalated.

That wasn't very hard to deduce, was it, anon?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749266
daily reminder that the metaworld is not a fantasy world, just another way of seeing things.

why describe an angry greedy baba killing a pretty loli when you can see beautiful evebeatrice doing her magic.

its not like people will misunderstand magic, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749278
cute Dlanor to that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749215
>It's something about Ryukishi07 and a far inferior author being influenced by Evangelion.

Protip: nobody care about R07 anymore in japan.
He is literally a has-been

TypeMoon still has Fate/zero

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749278
well, if we go further with metaworld we can argue that it wasn't an accident she killed Rosa

and does that mean she also killed Hideyoshi?
I always thought they were killed by Yasu due to them fighting against Stakes, but.....

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749287
if she killed Rosa and Maria, she killed Hideyoshi.
there was no going back for her and Hideyoshi would have fought that, as we saw happened.

killing your family out of greed like that must be like hell (specially for the victims), I guess she took confort into thinking was all for the good of George, and then George really wants to marry the maid... and fight for it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749285
I don't know anything about that but he's still a better author nonetheless

[Anonymous No.]

oh Maria, you would have grown so beautiful.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749266
She's still out of character. She wouldn't have killed George if she was in the right state of mind.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749354
Stop doing that to Maria!

We wouldn't have this problem if only Ryu knew how to draw a straight line.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749660
sorry

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749285

>Protip: nobody care about R07 anymore in japan.

You again?

5 RGD manga series and we're still at seaons 2, shut up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749655
there are no "sane" witches.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749753
RGD anime when?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749785
I dont think the anime industry is ready for adult themes like prostitution.

anime adaptations of 7th expansion are always horrible, but they gives us voices and new graphics.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749770
young eva

[RV307 No.]

Rosa and George are the murderers and Nanjo is an accomplish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHMta4YbjSM

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749843

Nanjo is too pure for that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749025
I'll give it a shot:

Reporter: In what way have your works been influenced by EVA?

Ryukishi07: It has taught me that there is a way to play (a game) by considering the world view. Things like, in the OP, what is the true nature of that shining man of which we only get a fleeting reflection? What is the Human Instrumentality Project? This way to play can be done for games, anime, etc. I've realized it can also be applied to stories. Perhaps, this way of playing considering the appearance of the world could be exerting a strong influence in "Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni". Higurashi only presented this way of playing once again, in that meaning, one could definitely say it's a work that wouldn't have been born without EVA.

Reporter: Please express to us your thoughts and enthusiasm about EVA.

Ryukishi07: As of yet I don't know the amount of influence that EVA has exerted on the game scenario. I can't really say how much of EVA has crossed over (that's literally what he says) all the presentation and direction of the game. It's also a magnificent work, one that stands over the rest, and, perhaps, the way we've continued after it is a disappointment*. What can we take, what tales we'll be able to spin from this magnificent story? EVA was good, but when it ended ** it seems we haven't learned anything from it. To understand something from this work, and make games and anime with really interesting content well known, we will have to make a much stronger effort, I think.

* I'm not really sure about this one.
** Causative form? What the hell? 終わられて
would make more sense. I dunno.

Well, this is Ryukishi's part. Maybe I'll do Nasu's later, if you see any glaring errors let me know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749843
when I played the game, I didnt think that shanon and kanon where the same, I though he was actually a "younger brother" brought by genji to help shanon with her lonliness.

later Ive been reading that Shanon and Kanon are the same, which sounds nice but really doesnt make much sense in the real world.

I think her body was shanon, as she needed a face to be in the world, but inside her there was other forms of herself, as in her heart she wasnt supposed to be like that.

I think Lion being male is because natsuhi would never throw the future heir off a cliff, but she did for a worthless female... so sad.
I think thats were the love demon twins come from, as battler would have never do that to the baby.

[RV307 No.]

>>10749855
The doctor is always an accomplish, but it is hard to come up for an motive for him. The only one I can come up with is that he had an sick grandchild (Stated in the third game) and was bribed to help Rosa and George, but he never killed anyone. Only helped them.

>>10749943
Yeah, the whole part of Shannon, Kannon and Beatrice being the same person sounds like a red herring to me. I also think the her employers would be retarded if they are unable to realize that two of their employees is the same person.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10750075
>I also think the her employers would be retarded if they are unable to realize that two of their employees is the same person.

Yeah. It's ludicrous how Yasu's employer, Yasu, never understood that Yasu tricked her. Yasu's employer, Yasu, should have understood that Yasu played some nasty tricks on her almost immediately, and Yasu should have fired Yasu the minute Yasu invented personalities.

I mean, okay, Natsuhi mostly ignores the servants, Krauss is not paying attention, and Jessica has school somewhere out the island, and there is very big turnover of dozen of servants each months, but Yasu has no excuse. She's always here, for fuck sake! She should have been the first to see the disguise of Yasu, and order Genji to do something about it.

What a disgusting plothole.

[Anonymous No.]

anybody has this set of images from the dvds in good quality?

they great but I only have them in bad quality

[RV307 No.]

>>10750222
I'm pretty sure Jessica would notice that her crush(Kannon) is the same person as one of her best friends she confides with(Shannon).

Also wouldn't Gohda notice that two of his colleagues is the same person.

And while it's true that both Krauss and Natushi is not paying that much attention they should be able to notice that Kannon that has worked there for three years and Shannon that has worked there for like ten years never appear at the same time.

Also the whole thing about the murder being Yasu/Leon that is child/grandchild of Kinzo that later fell down from a cliff and only hurt his/her pee-pee only to be found and rescued by Ganji and Nanjo and gets his/her identity concealed by Ganjo because he is afraid that Kinzo will rape the now pee-pee mutilated child. And later the child creates a split personality cause his/her pee-pee is gone and joins the LGBT community and falls in love with Jessica, George and Battler. And finality the child solves the riddle, gets the headship and decides to kill everyone so she/he can decide who to be truly in love with sound silly.
I believe that Yasu/Leon died when he/she fell from the cliff and the whole Yasu is Shannon, Kannon and Beatrice is just something Ryukishi07 put in to trick persons that had not come up with theories of their own after the fourth game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10750222
Apparently you missed the entire extended sequence in EP7 that tells us flat-out that Jessica's way of dealing with ideas she finds disturbing, like, for example, her crush and her childhood friend being the same person, is to bury her head in the sand and be willfully ignorant.

And Gohda is a self-involved idiot. He didn't even know Kinzo was dead.

Sorry that the answer "sounds silly" to you, but that's not the best basis to go into denial and flail about pretending that hasn't been set up as the answer the entire time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10750450
How did Beatrice reach Japan with a submarine full of gold?
How did Yasu manage to survive from the fall with only his penis butchered?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10750490
What about the EP7 flashback did you have a problem with? She was an aristocrat wit a trained staff on the submarine.

I'm not sure why you want rationalization for what was a freak accident. Weirder things have happened in real life. Besides, by Nanjo's account the wound was horrific and would have killed Yasu if the angle was just slightly off. And no one ever said Yasu's penis was the only thing damaged from the fall. The opposite actually. Yasu's body was screwed up and weak enough after the fall to pass as three years younger.

[RV307 No.]

>>10750450
The whole Yasu part is just a red herring to trick the readers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

They mention several times in the novels that there is enough foreshadowing and clues in the first four novels to solve the mystery and that there is a trap that some will fall into. (The trap refers to the ShaKanontrice theory)
There is also some conflicting red truths to the ShaKanontrice theory.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10750568
>They mention several times in the novels that there is enough foreshadowing and clues in the first four novels to solve the mystery and that there is a trap that some will fall into. (The trap refers to the ShaKanontrice theory)

This was never said.

>There is also some conflicting red truths to the ShaKanontrice theory.

No there aren't, no more than there is for anything else.

The denial of people trying to rationalize simply not liking the answer is painfully hilarious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10750568
Actually, the trap was only discussed in an interview, not in the main story, and Ryuukishi said it had to with an element that was specifically in EP5, not in EP1-4. He also said it would mislead even people who reached part of the truth if they hadn't fully understood what was going on.

So, what happened in EP5 that never happened in any earlier or later game and could fit that description? Could it possibly have been Shannon and Kanon appearing in front of the detective on account of the game master explicitly ignoring the heart of the mystery?

[RV307 No.]

>>10750609

One of the main themes in the novels is about deception and thinking for yourself and the whole Yasu part is just something that you get spoonfeed while there are other theories that makes more sense and doesn't conflict any of the red truths.

If you got a huge amount of spare time I would recommend you to watch a really long theory and possible explanation to the mystery.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHMta4YbjSM
This guy got a pretty good theory that explains a lot in his videos in a pedagogical and much better way than I do by writing on a thread.

While I don't agree with him on everything he makes a lot of good points.

Also Willard H. Wright says that you are able to solve the mystery by just seeing the four first games (or maybe it was the first two games, was a long time since i read the novels, I might have to re-read them someday) and the rest of the games is just extra clues to make it easier for you. I also want to remember Lamdadelta saying something similar.
And in the video you can see some of the contradicting red truths I was talking about. It's most likely better to watch him talk about it and be shown examples from the games than having me try to remember all of the red truths from my memory.

But I have to admit that the Yasu theory sounds really convincing as the answer after you have been faced with the logic error. It took me some time to realize that the Yasu theory just sounded a bit to cheesy to be correct and the more I thought about it the less sense it started to make and I had to interpret the red truths in some wacky ways to make the Yasu all fit together.

[Anonymous No.]

Why do people on Pixiv never draw Lion with a penis?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10751260
Is that Orin in a lewd outfit?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749706
No, I'm sorry. If you want a Maria with chest tumors, then that's your truth, and I can't deprive you of that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749770
Okay, Eva goes crazy when finding the gold and becomes EVA (even in Ange's world, where she at least thinks she has the title of Beatrice), and kills everyone. So why was Ange so upset about having her lifelong suspicious of Eva confirmed?

[Anonymous No.]

>people still says "yasu was a red herring"
You guys are almost as bad as AS.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10750842
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHMta4YbjSM
I mean at least you agree he isn't completely right, so that is something.

That guy should really stop saying "lol nobody refuted me so I win" when people have done exactly that. . If it was in text format people would easily be able to see all the readers posts which they proved he was wrong instead of all the little brainwashed viewers who post saying "oh you are right"

[Anonymous No.]

>>10750430
>I'm pretty sure Jessica would notice that her crush(Kannon) is the same person as one of her best friends she confides with(Shannon).

Did you see how the relationship between Kannon and Jessica turned out? They are not an happy couple visiting Paris together. They are not even a couple. It is true that Jessica has a crush on Kannon, but it's a schoolgirl crush that never went very far. There is nothing easier for Yasu to pretend that Kannon is busy somewhere else 29 days by months.

Let me repeat it. Dozen of servants, external or internal, come and go each months in this huge mansion. Everything is controlled by Genji, who obey Yasu. That's all that is needed to fake what you want.

And of course, you're forgetting the heart. Yasu did not pass as Kannon because she was mentally unstable. If you follow Umineko, you'll understand the dynamic between her and Jessica. Here, I help you, in a language you can understand hopefully:

"- I like you Shannon!
- I like you too Jessica!
- Oh noes I wish I had a boy friend that understood me nobody understand me I'm all alone in my school!
- Oh... Hm... Well, hm... There is... this servant, you know, I'm sure he can help you.
- Sure? That would be so cool Shannon!"

And then Kannon was born, from Yasu's love to Jessica.

>>10750842
My god, the autistic videos again.

First thing first. It is true that it is said the mystery is solvable with the first 4 games alone. But what is your point? There is clues _everywhere_ in the first 4 games pointing to Yasu. And why not? it's the ultimate truth of Umineko.

Secondly, regarding the autistic videos. The arguments of this person boil down to only one thing: 'I don't like ShKannon'. He tries very hard to find arguments for a theory that isn't ShKannon, and doesn't really succeed.

>While I don't agree with him on everything he makes a lot of good points.
That's sad. You're truly a goat.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10750842
>(or maybe it was the first two games, was a long time since i read the novels, I might have to re-read them someday

Wow, no wonder you buy into the Rosatrice and "Yasu is a lie" bullshit, it sounds plausible to you because all you have are vague and often incorrect memories and a recollection you didn't like the answer. Try actually rereading the games. It's screamingly obvious Yasu was the intended answer from the beginning and yes was intended to be solvable from the first four episodes alone.

[Anonymous No.]

Maria did it with magic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749655
She didn't kill George, Yasu did.

She killed Krauss and Natsuhi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10750490
10 tons of gold is not much at all. Gold is very heavy, you know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753117
>Secondly, regarding the autistic videos. The arguments of this person boil down to only one thing: 'I don't like ShKannon'. He tries very hard to find arguments for a theory that isn't ShKannon, and doesn't really succeed.

Can you counter his arguments then?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753296
10 ton=320,000 ounces

320,000 x 1350 an oz

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753296
>>10753396
I'm sorry, I wasn't paying complete attention.

1 ton of gold = roughly a yd x yd x yd cube.

So 10 of them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753296
It's also only about $118M (according to Wolfram Alpha's exchange rate for 1986). Not THAT much money, especially considering it would take years to liquidate that much illegal gold and you'd be lucky to get maybe 75% of the value on the black market. It would have been nearly impossible to liquidate it in time to solve their respective money crunches.

They'd be better off just investing Kinzo's $10M (a rather pathetic sum for their life style: even if invested with 5% coupon rate, they'd still only have a budget of ~$16K a week before taxes, and that doesn't seem enough to pay for twenty servants and chartering airplanes) in some tech or oil companies and riding out the bubble. Too bad Krauss is a dipshit more interested in his moon real estate crap.

As an aside, they each wanted 250M yen, so about $3M. How could they not get loans for that? This is the 80's, the age of irrational exuberance; you could right a proposal on the back of a used tissue and get approved for a loan back then. It was also the age of ``JAPS ARE TAKING OVER~!'' in the US, so Rudolf's company at the very least should have been able to secure international investors.

>>10753411
Ten tonnes of chemically pure gold would only be 0.678 cubic yards. Bullion wouldn't be much different.

[Anonymous No.]

What was the relevance of the dead body in the gutter in the 3rd Higurashi game?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10752150
"Goes crazy" is useless as an explanation of motive. It's basically saying "I don't have a fucking clue so I'm just going to put this."

This is why EP3 is still confusing to me: Eva killing George and Hideyoshi makes no sense (see EP7 Tea Party), unless maybe if it was some kind of huge accident. The gold has already been found, so Beatrice is not supposed to be killing. Then even if you assume Rosa and Maria was Eva's doing, who killed George and Hideyoshi? And why did Beatrice kill Nanjo at the end?

Speaking of EVA-Beatrice's puzzle at the end of EP3 that involves Nanjo's death, is there any other way to solve it other than "Beatrice killed him"?

[Anonymous No.]

Does anyone have working DL links for the Umineko Fandiscs?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753470
Have you read further? I'll tell you, but it's a huge spoiler. It's Rina, Satoko's uncle's whore.
Rina killed by Sonozakis -> Uncle needs to keep his head low for a while -> Moves to the Sonozaki home town -> He beats Satoko -> That story line is set in motion

>>10753484
>"Goes crazy" is useless as an explanation of motive. It's basically saying "I don't have a fucking clue so I'm just going to put this."
I didn't mean that she suddenly got Rokkenjima Syndrome from those damn butterflies, I meant that got pissy about having to share the gold with Rosa, killed her in a fit of rage, then panicked and the rest was her trying to cover it up. More of a crazy like `Kinzo's madness'. She got pretty upset when she realized that she would be going to prison in EP7, and with her history, it's not unlikely that she would snap. That would be why she killed Battler at the end, to finish off the last witness.

>Eva killing George and Hideyoshi makes no sense (see EP7 Tea Party), unless maybe if it was some kind of huge accident.
I see no way that she would have. If she were fighting with Hideyoshi about what to do after killing Rosa and Maria, then it might be fine to say she killed him, but he wouldn't have been pointing a gun at him in the first place.

Speaking of George, his executed character TIP is pretty suspicious. Eva got the PIN for killing him? I don't see how how that would work. Eva shouldn't ever kill George, especially not for money.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753484
It had to have been Beatrice. Everyone else was either dead, blind, away or Battler at the time though. She was already there "resurrecting" Kanon back to help Jessica. Blue text: Kyrie also solved the riddle and committed the murder Hideyoshi with Rudolf, then with George in exchange for the ATM card. Yasu ordered Nanjo to fake her death as well. Eva sees her and assumes the whole family is in on it, then kills them and Battler as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753522
Wait, what? I'm on the 8th game and I totally missed that. The Sonozaki's did it? What.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753576
Yup. She was caught stealing from them. I think it was the sixth arc when it shows them capturing her and taking her to the `shrine storage'. That's why she had nails in her joints and all sorts of other shit wrong with her.

[Anonymous No.]

Hey guys check out this Ange.

I'm a shitty artist. Can someone improve it, please?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753590
B-But the Sonozakis are a bunch of tsunderes! They wouldn't kill anyone.

... Right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753673
No, they are a bunch of thugs. They made Shion rip her own fingernails out for what was basically the crime of existing. You can't seriously think that these are good people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753362
Test me. He doesn't have any solid argument. He just cherry picked every things slightly difficult to understand and went for a vastly different interpretation that doesn't make any internal sense.

Have you seen his videos? If that's the case, you understand I hope.

Example:
>MUH ERIKA HAS SEEN SHANNON AND KANNON TOGETHER IN THE BEGINNING OF EP5

That's awfully false. If you paid attention, you would know why. Did you pay attention? That whole scene was from the beginning said to be from Battler point of view. Metaphorically, from the perspective of the narration, Battler said 'And then Erika was here, and then she acknowledged Shannon and Kannon', which is false, and rightfully so: Battler is not the detective in EP5, he can be deceived and lie.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753653
There is something wrong with her arms. And her tits should be closer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753653
NO

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753711
Please.

[Anonymous No.]

I'd read a novel about Ooishi's life as a policeman.

[Anonymous No.]

Why didnt Hanyuu just follow Takano after the cotton drifting festival?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753777
I was just thinking that! But I guess she was just a bystander at that point in the story.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753777
There are three main theories about this:
          1. Hanyuu is retarded.
          2. Rika is retarded.
These are not widely accepted.
          3. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.
This is the most popular theory and enjoys the blessing of Ryukishi.

[Anonymous No.]

Why doesn't Ryukishi insult Deen/Chiaki Kon in every interview?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753653
What happened to DEM HIPS?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753856
He isn't an autist who dwells on everything.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753856
He's a nice guy who doesn't want to antagonize powerful people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10752022
I dont want Maria to be sick.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10749354

My name is Batl-errrrrr Batman and I approve of this Maria-chan

[Anonymous No.]

>>10754000
I didn't know you posted here Batman. I also thought you were into teen boys. Would you say that Battler or George is sexier than Robin? Personally, I think they are both dipshits and that George is a fat loser. Sakutaro might be fun to fuggle with though. What do you think?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753457

Thanks for the financial info.

-----------------

-so, Beatrice becomes the (secret) head of the family and knows everything.
-write in her stories (first 2 arcs) about her desperate broken family.
-she even knows that theyre gonna fight like angry monkeys over kinzos whealth after his death, and gets a huge laugh knowing all that wealth is hers.
-when the time comes in real life, she takes vengange using their greed and love issues.
- "everybody dies"
- Eva is the "only one" left alive, so she takes everything from everyone and makes a come back.
- Eva dies, Ange is the only heir, she couldnt care less.

----------------------------

-it seems like Krauss has a way to use that gold. Eva wants and is capable of what Krauss can do, thats why Rosa did not fight her and tried to make a deal with her.

my guessing about how they could not get money elsewhere:
-Rudolf was in deep legal troubles.
-Rosa and her company was useless.
-Hideyoshi and Eva lost their position in their own companies.
-Krauss was already coming back, but he needed time, all he could get was already invested.

[RV307 No.]

>>10753686
In the first twilight of the third game. it's stated in red

"6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Ghoda, and Kumasawa is dead!"

If we assume that people means individuals that have their own body that would mean that Yasu have died wto times eith two different bodies. Which would be impossible.

You could always assume that people=personalities which would allow us to say that Shanon and Kanon is dead but the Yasu personality is still alive. But that would make problematic with the red statement in the sixth game

"Even if you do join us-" "There are 17 people."

if we assume that Erika doesn't count because she drowned according to the tips and doesn't count and Yasu counts as three "people" that would make the total amount of people on the island 18, which contradicts the red truth and if Erika counts that would make them 19.

But if we assume that Yasu counts as one "people" and Erika survived then it would be okay with the 17 people red truth but then it would contradict with the red truth from the first twilight from the third game.

And my theory is simply that Erika drowned and thus not counted among the 17 people and Shannon and Kanon is two different individuals. This explanation also require the least amount of wordplay.

Is this enough to test you or is it to much wordplay?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/people
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth

[RV307 No.]

>>10754154
>Yasu have died wto times eith two different bodies.
I meant "Yasu have died two times with two different bodies."

[Anonymous No.]

I believe that Kanon and Shanon are different, then I started to think that if Kanon was Shanons little brother, then she would have taken great care of him as the huge affectionated person she is, and this did not seem to have happened, then I remembered Shanon is a fake persona made up so she could survive, and her relation with kanon was (or would...) made up by genji to keep her company.

I remember that "someone" said with great anger "this body uncapable of love, Im furniture now". I dont think it means got castrated as some people say, I believe it means uncapable of love cause of the lack of true self.

shes a maid now, she has to work hard and without question for the idiot who nearly murder her without any mercy and made torture of her daily life, she was furnature.

lets also remember what the figure of furnature is in beatos stories.

[RV307 No.]

>>10754154
>if we assume that Erika doesn't count because she drowned according to the tips and doesn't count

Well isn't my English totally off today.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10754165
also, Kanon is (or would have been) someone who dont like witches, but believe in them.

feels like everyone try to get him in the group but he didnt wanted to, so he remained lonely while everybody else was drinking tea.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10754154
>people means individuals that have their own body
>people=personalities
No and no.

People = character whose existence is aknowledged by everyone. Kanon counts, Beatrice doesn't.

>Yasu personality
As I said, It's not about personalities. "Yasu" doesn't have her own identity as far as everyone is concerned, she is just Shannon.

>"Even if you do joun us-" "There are 17 people"
Even if Erika's corpse joins them, she doesn't count as a person. Kanon does count, so he is the 17th person.

>"I'm the visitor, the 18th human in Rokkenjima"
Human = actual bodies, alive or dead. 15 normal people + Shkanon + Kinzo + Erika.

Why all this so hard to understand for some people?

[RV307 No.]

>>10754218
So in the first twilight of the third game hove did Shannon/Kanon die?

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

None of the six people committed suicide!

Did Shakanontrice have a heart attack or did somebody decide to kill her for for the sake of it or did ShaKanontrice just play dead?

Also this read truth from the sixth game seems to confirm that people refers to body, not character whose existence is acknowledged by everyone.

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

I'm still having trouble to accept the Yasu hypothesis and the first twilight from the third game to co-exist but if you can explain it I promise to listen and try to understand.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10754273
>None of the six people committed suicide!
Of course they didn't commit suicide. Shannon and Kanon were just playing dead. Their corpses were seen by everyone and Yasu didn't plan to "resurrect" them. They really were dead.

>this red truth from the sixth game seems to confirm that people refers to body
>Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies?
He was just confirming it for that situation. It doesn't mean that people = bodies.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10754154
>Yasu counts as three "people"
No. She is both Shannon and Kanon. That's two people. "Yasu" isn't a different person as far as everyone knows. She is like a ghost.

Also, Erika was alive during EP5 and EP6. She wasn't an illusion or anything. The red truths at the end of EP6 were referring to the "real" truth, not to the gameboard. Erika said something about being prepared to accept the truth about herself, as a witch of truth.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10754627
I think the easiest way to think of this is that Kanon and Shannon both count as people, but only one of them exists with a body at a time. Which is why Beatrice only refers to the total people count on the island as "no more than x people."

[Anonymous No.]

>>10754165
Except she specifically says she's furniture because of a wound she got on her body from falling off the cliff, you idiot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10754909
and they specifically say that magic and witches are real, and its the only explanation for everything, you idiot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10750515
You can't go with a stealt submarine from Italy to Japan.
And yep, I can't bring myself to consider serious a story wich such premise (harder than finding a fragment with Natsuhi not throwing a baby from a cliff), Ryukishi can't into medicine.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10755169
Please tell me you understand the difference between questioning something the story tells you to question and "hurrrr dur i think the truth is the exact opposite of what the story states bcuz i dun like the idea of beatrice having penis"

[Anonymous No.]

>>10756061
Beatrice obviously doesn't have a penis though. Beatrice wears a dress, and dresses are for girls, so she can't have a penis.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10756061
I dont need handhold to ask questions.
youre the one not thinking at all.

>>10756103
not only a dress, it was elegant and beautiful.
with the pride and joy of a great linage.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10756061
Why does no one draw yasu with a penis????

[Anonymous No.]

>>10753204
I believe this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10756477
>The Sun represents success, radiance and abundance. The Sun gives you strength and tells you that no matter where you go or what you do, your positive and radiant energy will follow you and will bring you happiness and joy.

I'm not feeling it for Maria.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10756485
You seem to have misunderstood what Maria's (and to a lesser extent, Beato's) magic is all about.... before Saku-TEAR-oh at least.

[Anonymous No.]

Jessica did it with danmaku.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10756485
Far better.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10756323
Maybe (just maybe) because in the 7th book, Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa specifically say that when the incestuous infant was born, they feared that the tragedy would happen again. Meaning that the newlyborn infant was a girl too and that she was just as likely to grow to look like the original Beatrice and Kinzo was just as likely to rape her in due time (so to speak).
That explains why they tell Kinzo it's a boy - and possible heir - that he promptly imposes on Natsuhi, it explains why the kid is said to be dead after the accident - Kinzo would find out it's a girl - , it explains why it was taken at such a young age into the maid team - it IS a direct heir in the family -, and it explains why it would need a *male* avatar later on that would grow closer to Kinzo. It also explains why Shannon was dressed as Beatrice when she was told to confront Kinzo and tell him she had solved the riddle. It also explains why Battler never gets to grab her boobs even though he's a breast sommelier, and it explains why he's getting reprimanded when he tries to check her dead body in the 3rd book. Shannon's big boobs are a fraud.
I mean, seriously. Umineko has been in english for quite a while now, surely *reading* is not an issue to all who participate on such a discussion board?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10757725
but many people question why she's flat and infertile, popular theory is that she was born with a penis-not necessarily male, it could be inactive/dead penis, which happens pretty often especially in incestuous families

[Anonymous No.]

>>10757725
Kinzo's a guy who claims ownership of Bice, all the way down to the broth from her corpse. Do you really think that a little cock and balls is going to get in his way?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10757725
Kinzo is someone who was insane enough to rape his own daughter. If you would put it past him to rape his son, especially when that son has lost his male sexual organs (which is when Genji showed concern, note he did nothing in the timeline where Yasu get wounded), you're just plain naive. Even Natsuhi, Kinzo's number one sycophant, thought that Kinzo obsessing over a male Beatrice was completely plausible.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10757740

There's also that Lion is pretty much confirmed as male at this point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10759707
>note he did nothing in the timeline where Yasu get wounded)*

did NOT get wounded

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

Isn't Yasu having a pipi all speculation?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10760462
umineko is a huge story full of all kinds of emotions, but all we care about is if one character has a pipi or not.

[Anonymous No.]

Will R07 ever create something on the level of EP5 again?

[gigs !A7GLsxo4c. No.]

>>10761737
I hope so, I remember it being my second favorite episode right after episode 3. I bought the PS3 ports a while back and I might use them as an excuse to reread it.

Is it my imagination or did they release a patch for the PS3 sprites and backgrounds a long while back?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10761759
Yes, but you are homosexual if you use it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10761685

It was just a simple question. I just think it's strange that people base their theories around Yasu having a mutilated pipi when I never heard from such thing.

I enjoyed Umineko immensely, all of it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762470
It's like Shkanontrice in that everything points to it. Unless you thought all the gender ambiguity and furniture complex stuffs was just in there for no reason.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762512
born as a boy- heir (Lion).
born as a girl- maid (Shanon).

but since we hate feminism, we talk about mutilated pipis.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762608
Yeah, because that would account for all of Yasu's gender angst and ambiguity, and being portrayed as Natsuhi's male child from nineteen years ago even as "Shannon," right? Oh wait.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762658
being thrown off a cliff just because youre a girl and knowing that if you were born a boy your life would have been completely different, will give you that gender angst and ambiguity, among other things.

whats the difference between lion and shanon then? why would old battler write about lion?

and who was furniture? so ronove, the stakes, the bunnies, the goats... all of them have mutilated pipis.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762693
Yasu was not thrown off because she was a girl, Natsuhi was thrown off because of her "I'm an unworthy wife" angst. Natsuhi's kid was portrayed as a man, Natsuhi herself calls that child a man, you can't be this retarded.

Lion is the version of Yasu that wasn't thrown off a cliff and therefore kept his penis. Shannon was castrated and raised as a woman, found out the truth later, and developed the gender complex. Not some retarded "hurrr i will start imagining I was a boy for no reason and this will drive me crazy for no reason hurrrr"

Furniture in fantasy is code for subhuman being, because Yasu uses it as a human it refers to her ambiguous lack of gender and thus feeling subhuman, Ryukishi confirmed this is what it refers to when Yasu uses it, get over it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762723
and Lion was not thrown off the cliff "hurrr just because i say so hurr"

regrets for being a girl is reason enough.

how the hell Natsuhi is going to get mad if shes having the heir in charge?

source on R07, and even if he said exactly what you posted, it does not mean castration.

the one that cant be this retarded is your murrika jew penis.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762734
to anyone willing to reply me:
I wont be answering anything today cause its late and started to dream about a pretty girl like me getting angry and violent while debating this... happiness.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762734

>how the hell Natsuhi is going to get mad if shes having the heir in charge?

I'm not him but I think you should reread EP5 and EP8

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762608
Ah, that made me realize. It's not a problem to think that at least some things in one game board could be different from things in another, thus EP5 which has a totally different game master may indeed have something weird going on. I mean, there was even a scene where both Shannon and Kanon showed up in front of the detective (anyone have theories on how that worked?), so who's to say that even something like her gender couldn't have been changed... Not that it's really that easy to assume that Natsuhi saw the genitalia of the infant that she hated and constantly stayed away from and was only with for a very short time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762734
>and Lion was not thrown off the cliff "hurrr just because i say so hurr"

>regrets for being a girl is reason enough.

>how the hell Natsuhi is going to get mad if shes having the heir in charge?

How the fuck did you miss what all of the shit with Natsuhi in EP5 was about. She was mad and tried to kill the kid because the kid wasn't hers and she felt humiliated and ashamed by it. That's all the motive she needed.

Also I love how you insist Natsuhi threw the baby "because it was a girl" when NATSUHI HERSELF refers to the baby as a man, do you even read your own words?

>source on R07, and even if he said exactly what you posted, it does not mean castration.

> Beyond that there is the attitude pointed at by the word furniture, as it can be understand as Shannon being seen as something less than human. This is because she likened herself to something inhuman because of her body, unable to love, and that is why she sarcastically called herself furniture.

It means castration because everything else in the story points to it if you can so much as put two and two together. But if the idea of Shannon formerly having a penis distresses you so much you can keep being in denial about it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762752
>I mean, there was even a scene where both Shannon and Kanon showed up in front of the detective (anyone have theories on how that worked?)
It works because the scene where they show up in front of the detector is relayed to us from an unreliable narrator.

Natsuhi doesn't show any uncertainty about the baby's gender once she finds out it was the child she was given nineteen years ago and EP7 confirms Yasu being portrayed as man in that episode is meant to be one hint amongst many about her fucked up gender problems.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762658
Yes furniture refers to "subhuman" but it is not known exactly how the gender issue relates to this. To explain, I can put forth a different theory than the mutilated penis:

The news about her mutilated body was only the final nail in the coffin, because she already had 2 relationships that she didn't think were going to work (Battler forgot her and the Jessica thing started by accident, and she was reserved about it from the start because regardless of gender she thought she was a girl, and Jessica almost certainly knows it's the same human body dressed up differently anyway). This wrecked her hopes for the final one, which she originally thought she might have at least been able to provide a family for, according to his wishes. Now, because she isn't able to fix any of these issues she sees herself as someone who isn't worthy of loving a human, thus furniture.

This theory, most notably, works regardless of what her original gender was.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762765
A child being raised by Natsuhi and Krauss as the oldest offspring of all of Kinzo's children is going to be the heir almost certainly, and Kinzo is known to be sexist which means that even if she never saw the genitalia (which is quite uncertain in the first place), it wouldn't be surprising if she thought the child was male even if it wasn't.

Yes, the portrayal as a male in EP5 is meant to be one hint amongst many, but does that really conclusively say that the original gender was male? No. Would an interpretation other than "the child was born male" be seeing it without love? Surely not.

I'm not saying the child was originally born female. What I'm doing is throwing it right back in the cat box because there is no confirmation either way.

When multiple explanations can exist side by side, the authenticity of both is questioned.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762787
The problem with this theory is that is only works if you actively ignore all the stuff in the story that screams in your face that what Yasu is dealing with is specifically gender issue (Will says it outright in EP7, and all the Kanon/Shannon, Zepar/Furfur, Lion as man, EP5 man from nineteen years ago, Ryukishi confirming Yasu has no breasts) and it all has to do with being both man and woman, nothing to do with kids. In other words your theory only works by cherry picking. It also falls apart when you realize Yasu came to hate herself as furniture because of body issues even before getting close to George and hearing about his wishes.

Plus Beatrice and Shannon scenes in EP2 make it clear that Shannon can't have sex at all, and it's not just about being able to fulfill his dreams. Ryukishi also confirmed that if George only tried to have sex with her he would understand the truth about her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762811
When you have a character who was clearly rasied as a female who has a severe gender issue due to having a wound, and all references to that character without or before the wound (the man from nineteen years ago and Lion) are male, you have to be deliberately ignorant to not realize what is being implied.

Plus the whole "Natsuhi only tricked herself into thinking it was male" makes no sense. Yasu was trying to intimidate Natsuhi and also protrayed herself, the child, as male. Why do that if it was a girl? How would Yasu know Natsuhi was mistaken? Unless Yasu was completely retarded she would know Natsuhi would have an almost certain chance of going "but that child was a girl, not a boy" and the ruse would be up once she started the phone call.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762817
>Will says it outright in EP7
>all the Kanon/Shannon, Zepar/Furfur
>EP5 man from nineteen years ago
I do understand the gender ambiguity thing. However why is it that this ambiguity can only come into play if the child was born male? Regardless of what it was, she cannot fulfill any relationships physically. And we all know that what she cares about is being loved and understood, first and foremost. Therefore the reason why this injury would be so traumatizing to her, is probably because she believes it will keep her from that goal in some way.
>Lion as man
Excuse me? We know very little about that fragment. And it is explicitly shown that it's a much bigger cat box, so even if Lion is a male, that says nothing about Clair.
>Ryukishi confirming Yasu has no breasts
Regardless of gender it is unlikely she ever went through puberty, due to the terrible injury that she only survived by a miracle.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762817
>Yasu came to hate herself as furniture because of body issues even before getting close to George and hearing about his wishes.
False, because in the story in EP7 she became close to him at least a year before she solved the epitaph, which was when she found out about all of this.

>Plus Beatrice and Shannon scenes in EP2 make it clear that Shannon can't have sex at all, and it's not just about being able to fulfill his dreams. Ryukishi also confirmed that if George only tried to have sex with her he would understand the truth about her.
Yes, the injury is the kind the would be readily apparent, and it almost certainly prevents sex regardless of gender.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762848
Because it makes no sense if she was born female. Oh this child has angst about both being male and female... after being raised as female her whole life... clearly Nanjo and Genji told her she was female after all and that made Yasu want to kill herself!

And Will said Lion's gender was yet another hint to Yasu's, that was the purpose of it being highlighted, so you are flat out wrong in that respect. Why do you think Lion is Clair's miracle, it's because he didn't get that wound that made Yasu torn between genders and hate herself.

>Regardless of gender it is unlikely she ever went through puberty, due to the terrible injury that she only survived by a miracle.

Why would Ryukishi tell us that and even put a hint to it in the story then? It tells us Yasu does not have female body on top of she cannot have sex with George as a woman, is torn between genders, has all of her pre/non-wounded personas portrayed as male. You can't keep up the ignorance forever.

Well I guess you can, but that doesn't make you any better than people who deny Yasu in the first place.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762854
No, she liked him vaguely before that but did not actually start relationship with him until after solving the epitaph. Stated in Ep2.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762854
>Yes, the injury is the kind the would be readily apparent, and it almost certainly prevents sex regardless of gender.

Tell me what this injury is with female Yasu. That keeps her from having sex and somehow keeps her from developing breasts. All you can do is wave it off with a vague 'oh it's just some injury that does that.' With male Yasu you know exactly what happened.

[Anonymous No.]

(sorry for slow replies guys)

>>10762854
that would be readily apparent*

>>10762835
Why is Lion male? Lion is explicitly made to be ambiguous. Will asks Lion what gender he/she/it is and Lion refuses to answer. So the man from 19 years ago incident is conclusively supposed to be implying the child was born male? Also, that isn't the only male portrayal. Kanon appeared a year before she ever knew anything about this problem. Why is it not possible to say that this is simply to help nail in that there is a gender ambiguity issue?

As for why she would have presented herself as male on the phone, she is already explicitly known to be someone who takes risks that would cause her to be easily found out, so isn't it possible she was testing Natsuhi in some way? Although, all of the scenes that I remember in EP5 where the man from 19 years ago pops up were from unreliable perspectives anyway. I'm pretty sure that even Natsuhi's confession was shown from Battler's perspective.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762900
Ryukishi recently answered question about Lion on twitter like this:
>Lion: I’m also skilled at cooking. Gender equality, after all. I think that regardless of gender, one should be able to stand in the kitchen.
Only makes sense if Lion is male. That plus dressing as male in traditional Ushiromiya family, Lion as male in yaoi TIP, and even in EP7 alone Will calls Lion male in the original Japanese and Lion doesn't react.

EP7 with Will referring to man from nineteen years ago as an important hint and EP8 with Beato confirming the Natsuhi story and speaking as the man from nineteen years ago shows that story is reliable.

There is a difference between doing a risky plan and doing something that means "my plan will fail instantly." What the fuck would Yasu be hoping to "test" Natsuhi on by claiming to be a gender she isn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762857
No, they told her that she's incapable of fulfilling any relationship physically. Keep in mind what she said in EP7: she was despairing about "this body that cannot even love" right? Which could work regardless of what it was. Lion doesn't have the problem which means that Lion can function as a human and be equal in love.

>And Will said Lion's gender was yet another hint to Yasu's, that was the purpose of it being highlighted, so you are flat out wrong in that respect.
Because Lion is supposed to be a hint, that means that Lion is automatically the same gender as Clair? But even beyond that, what if Lion was simply born and raised as a female? There doesn't need to be any disguise in place here. Kinzo wants to atone so he simply says "this girl is the next heir and fuck anyone who says otherwise" and Eva is super mad among other things but they get over it. Kinzo loves Beatrice so in this case he doesn't care about being sexist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762919
Explain how that turns into a gender complex where she feels both male and female. It makes no sense. She thinks she's a subhuman freak whose gender conflict even Battler acknowledges because she can't have traditional sex? what kind of person do you think Yasu is?

>Because Lion is supposed to be a hint, that means that Lion is automatically the same gender as Clair?

What else does it mean? Your problem is that you take every hint in the series and try to say "it doesn't necessarily mean that" while not providing anything alternate, just a vague "she had some injury or something."

>But even beyond that, what if Lion was simply born and raised as a female?

Then why not say that? Why keep highlighting there is gender problem through Lion? Everyone knows Beatrice as female. Everyone assumed the person behind Beatrice and Shannon was female. But Ryukishi is one who through Lion and other things keeps saying "you shouldn't assume that."

Plus the story says everyone in the family acknowledges Lion as ideal, perfect successor asides from being too young. You think sexist Ushiromiya family wouldn't have something to say about female Lion in that case?

Why are you so determined to keep this in a catbox anyway, what's your problem with male explanation? it answers everything and explains Yasu's pain very well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762857
>Why would Ryukishi tell us that and even put a hint to it in the story then? It tells us
...That she was willing to stand there and let him find out that they were fake. That's what the discussion was about. She's a big risk taker on the day of the incident because she simply wants to find a conclusion and doesn't care what it is. If George finds out that they're fake and understands that situation, and still accepts her, then fine. If he doesn't, then fine.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762933
Letting them find out she has fake breasts is a big risk??? Why, if she's just a girl? What's the big risk? "Oh how embarrassing, I'm a girl who pads, tee hee, move on!" Only reason it would be a big risk is if it meant revealing something as devastating as no Shannon body in the shed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762863
Before and after solving the epitaph, I'm pretty sure the relationship entailed him pushing his shit on her and not wanting anything other than a "yes" in return. She became more responsive to this about a year before solving the epitaph if I recall. I'm not sure exactly when she started to love him in return but even assuming you're correct about that, keep in mind that she didn't learn everything immediately after solving the epitaph. The news was broken over time, and we don't know exactly when she found out that she has a body that cannot love.

>>10762876
Not going through puberty is a valid cause for not growing breasts, isn't it? And how is it that odd to think that such a huge injury may have damaged the ovaries, or even made it so that some kind of special arrangement is required just to urinate?

If it's male we know that the testicles were probably damaged in some way, I guess. How is that so much less vague?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762942
No she already knew about her condition before starting the relationship, calling herself furniture and everything, that's why she hesitated so much over it. It's very clear in EP2.

>If it's male we know that the testicles were probably damaged in some way, I guess. How is that so much less vague?

Female: something vague was injured, ovaries or something, that somehow means she can't have sex and doesn't have breasts

Male: she can't have sex with george because she has no vagina, she doesn't have breasts because she's not female

do you not see the difference between this?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762912
Alright, at this point I admit I don't have counterarguments to everything. My memory of various things is vague, I don't have sources for some things, and I read the English translation anyway, so I don't know what the original Japanese said. So I won't bother to try and talk about those things.

However, Lion's clothes are not by any means explicitly male, and the yaoi TIP was a gigantic joke scenario, one among many. And yes, it's confirmed that Natsuhi dropped a child who Lambdadelta presented as a male (in a tale that explicitly lacks love) off the cliff 19 years ago and that this is supposed to serve as an important hint. As for the rest, well, I don't know.

However, if indeed Clair was born female and Natsuhi doesn't even know that, then that would mean that she never cared for it, not even once. "The man from 19 years ago" is looking for revenge, but who's to say their actions wouldn't have been a little different if they knew that she had shown even a little love?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762972
>However, Lion's clothes are not by any means explicitly male
You think sexist Kinzo and super traditional Natsuhi would let their daughter run around in pants at a formal event? In EP7 manga even in every flashback, young Jessica is shown in dress ("properly raised" idea of Jessica is also shown in very girly dress) but young Lion is shown in pants and boyish clothes, every time.

>the yaoi TIP was a gigantic joke scenario
So why include Lion in that TIP at all? He wasn't needed. Instead we got he and Will portrayed as a male/male couple. Every time Ryukishi makes hints to Lion's gender, it's male.

>And yes, it's confirmed that Natsuhi dropped a child who Lambdadelta presented as a male (in a tale that explicitly lacks love) off the cliff 19 years ago and that this is supposed to serve as an important hint.
The tale lacks love because of Erika and Yasu deciding to act out of vengeance for what happened to her instead of acting out of love. The later episodes affirm over and over that the part about Natsuhi history with man from nineteen years ago is reliable.

>However, if indeed Clair was born female and Natsuhi doesn't even know that, then that would mean that she never cared for it, not even once. "The man from 19 years ago" is looking for revenge, but who's to say their actions wouldn't have been a little different if they knew that she had shown even a little love?
Yeah I'm sure Yasu would have instantly overlooked Natsuhi throwing her off a cliff and mutilating her and ruining her life if only Natsuhi knew she was a girl, wait, that's completely ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762932
Her worldview is highly different from most people's these days, as seen in EP7. Here, I will give you an example:

Even if someone solves the epitaph she has nothing to gain from it (said in red in EP5), yet she still kills everyone if they don't solve it, while her true intention was mostly focused on 3 young people with whom she had a relationship, so why did the others have to die anyway? Aren't they completely extraneous? And on top of that, she believes in magic. Yet none of this makes her into a delusional insane retard. After all, she's one of my favourite characters, so there's no way I would say something like that. You can't look at it with a normal worldview.

(this character limit is killing me, give me a moment before saying I'm trying to strawman you. that was just an example to make the point about the worldview, nothing more)

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762932
To get back to the point, she hates her body and sees it as a cage, because within it only one of the identities she has created can be fulfilled, and that one's chances have now become even lower because she can't even function as a human equally in love regardless of who it is she's paired with. Jessica's relationship is now just as viable as the others, perhaps even more because while Battler seemed to have forgotten and George isn't going to get his dream of a family, Jessica probably already knows that regardless of what gender Kanon is, he isn't going to function as a male in the relationship, and yet she still loves him.

Yes, she sees it as "I might as well not be human, so I basically don't have a gender" Does that mean she's an idiot if she sees it this way when she was born female? Why would it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763031
for someone who says yasu is their favorite you sure seem to refuse to understand her even with all the hints purposefully given in her story. "I can't have traditional sex, I'm a subhuman freak, I'm trash, I deserve to die" is your view, seriously? And then waving off a huge important aspect of her character, the whole gender complex, all with "it doesn't necessarily mean that let's shove it in the catbox." You can't dodge the flaws in your argument with "oh Yasu has a weird worldview" Yasu's worldview is consistent. It's not so different from those who just go "oh she's just crazy don't bother trying to understand."

Yasu's hatred of her body didn't start because of identity limitation, that came after she realized her problems. Kanon Shannon and Beatrice all existed for Yasu before she solved the epitaph and she didn't really hate herself before that either. It all started when she found out about her wound, that is when she decided she was only furniture and nothing more.

And what is this nonsense about Jessica knowing? Why if you like Yasu so much are you trying to undermine her conflict? You say Yasu wants to be loved and understood, but then you say Jessica knows truth about Yasu and understands all of her problems and still loves her even though EP2 and EP6 makes obvious she doesn't understand at all. How does that work?

How does "I have no gender" follow from "wounded body"? Why specifically both male and female in conflict? Yasu is not portrayed as neuter, Zepar and Furfur are not genderless, Yasu is not portrayed as not having gender. Yasu is portrayed as having conflicting genders.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762932
There is also the fact that in EP6, the problem was made very clear at the love duel: What matters is that the relationship is not 1:1, there needs to be two full people worth of love, and there isn't. It said nothing about there being a problem with two of the same gender being paired. There is also the fact that children don't usually develop sexual preferences until they go through puberty (I at least did not), and even if she was born male, she likely did not go through it. I still don't see why Beatrice would be heartbroken just because she'd be missing out on some sex. Isn't it made fairly clear that what she really cares about is a love that understands? Or am I totally alone in this idea?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763103
(continued)
Because following that reasoning, the injury could only give her such significant trauma by depriving her of her chances at that love in some way. Yet George is the one who made it into a huge deal. When did the other two ever do that? So then isn't the situation the exact same even if she was born male?

>What else does it mean?
At least in EP7, Lion was portrayed as being ambiguous when it comes to gender (I'm only talking about the portrayal, which is what I believe Will said was the hint), which is therefore supposed to help drive in the point that she puts herself on the level of a subhuman who might as well not be either gender due to the fact that none of them can be fulfilled.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763103
>I still don't see why Beatrice would be heartbroken just because she'd be missing out on some sex. Isn't it made fairly clear that what she really cares about is a love that understands?

This is what you are arguing though? A female Yasu goes insane because she can't have traditional sex. Most people would consider male Yasu harder to accept and understand than just female Yasu who has a wound that makes sex difficult for her.

Which do you think is scarier for her, and harder to imagine someone understanding, telling George she is a woman who can't have vaginal sex or telling George she is a man?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763114
>At least in EP7, Lion was portrayed as being ambiguous when it comes to gender (I'm only talking about the portrayal, which is what I believe Will said was the hint), which is therefore supposed to help drive in the point that she puts herself on the level of a subhuman who might as well not be either gender due to the fact that none of them can be fulfilled.

What Will said is Lion (meaning Yasu's) gender was a mystery with clues present from the beginning. Not that she felt she was without gender. He asks Lion is he is a boy or girl and frames his question around that.

The mystery is if Yasu is a boy or a girl. An idealistic answer might be "it doesn't matter" but then you don't understand why she is suffering so badly. The story makes clear that Yasu was raised as a girl so then you have to consider what information would cause her to have such a terrible gender complex and why her background and "another her" as Lion is portrayed the way they are.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763114
(continued)
>Plus the story says everyone in the family acknowledges Lion as ideal, perfect successor asides from being too young.
It says they acknowledge Lion now, not that they always did, right? Also consider that it's obvious even in the EP7 world that Lion isn't a blood member of the Ushiromiya family, unless maybe if Kinzo wants to ruin Lion's chances at anything by saying "oh, she's my incest baby, I fucked my daughter."

Also, if Jessica married someone before any successor could be named, technically her husband would be considered the "head," but as in the case of Hideyoshi it's pretty clear that Jessica, being the blood member of the family, is going to be the one with more influence.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763165
(continued)
Kinzo is the main sexist, and if the others are it seems to mostly be because of Kinzo's traumatizing upbringing. This is the same Kinzo that would be very willing to put aside his sexism suddenly due to his desire to atone and love for Beatrice, which I'm pretty sure would turn a few heads. He is also the one who decides what the Ushiromiya family is, so in that case I think only Eva would dare to have a complaint.

>Why are you so determined to keep this in a catbox anyway
I love playing devil's advocate. And I don't think it's quite that perfect of an explanation anyway.

>>10762936
Even if Shannon has a male body from the start that was simply mutilated, the fake breasts are not going to suddenly completely unmask him as a male. When you see pads will you suddenly think "oh that's obviously a male in disguise"? So it basically all comes down to one thing: it helps lead George to the truth in some way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763165
>Also consider that it's obvious even in the EP7 world that Lion isn't a blood member of the Ushiromiya family

It's not obvious at all, Lion himself had absolutely no idea. I think you are right when you say your memories of things are vague.

>Also, if Jessica married someone before any successor could be named, technically her husband would be considered the "head," but as in the case of Hideyoshi it's pretty clear that Jessica, being the blood member of the family, is going to be the one with more influence.

In that case why not do that for Lion. Why make the distinction between Jessica's indirect position as successor due to gender and Lion's. Also it's made clear Hideyoshi is a unique case that Eva had to plead specially for to Kinzo because of Eva's own strong ambition. It's stated normally Eva would just be taken off the Ushiromiya family register to join Hideyoshi's family.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762946
Now wait a minute... She already knew about her "body that cannot love" even before she found the gold, whereas her breakdown about it takes place at some point after the day that she found it? I don't understand...

Also, no matter what you are, you are not going to be having sex or developing any kind of breasts as long as you haven't gone through something like puberty, right?

One thing I find interesting is that Genji decides not to reveal the baby to Kinzo because he fears Kinzo will make the same mistake. Are you saying that he suddenly developed this fear because the child now has a gigantic gash in place of a penis now that could vaguely be mistaken for a vagina? I know it's possible, and I know you can't put anything past Kinzo, but I don't know about this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763200
Shannon liked George vaguely before finding out about her body that cannot love. But she only began the relationship after she found out and her conflict about starting it was extreme because of knowing of her body. It's that simple. Again, it's very clear in EP2 once you know the background.

>One thing I find interesting is that Genji decides not to reveal the baby to Kinzo because he fears Kinzo will make the same mistake. Are you saying that he suddenly developed this fear because the child now has a gigantic gash in place of a penis now that could vaguely be mistaken for a vagina? I know it's possible, and I know you can't put anything past Kinzo, but I don't know about this.

Kinzo raped his own daughter, do you think he wouldn't be capable of deluding himself into thinking Beatrice was reborn again, but in the "wrong form" but "fate" took away her incorrect sexual features for him or something similarly insane? Not to mention Natsuhi says she can believe Genji was Kinzo's Beatrice. If even Natsuhi thinks Kinzo is capable of using a man for his Beatrice, I am not going to question her assessment of all people.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763177
in some way that isn't that obvious*

>>10762993
>You think sexist Kinzo and super traditional Natsuhi would let their daughter run around in pants at a formal event?
I don't really have a good counter-argument for this, although Lion apparently "believes in gender equality" so it's possible that he/she/it firmly objected to this treatment. Also most of the characters are only seen in one outfit, but I'm sure they wear other things... Not to mention that we basically only saw part of one day in the life of Lion, it isn't as though we witnessed Lion wearing the same thing for a week.

>So why include Lion in that TIP at all?
I don't think a joke TIP is really meant to help you solve core mysteries, so I'd guess Lion is in that TIP with the role he got because Virgilia wanted it?

>Yeah I'm sure Yasu would have instantly overlooked
Now you're just blowing what I said way out of proportion.

As for the rest of your post, I don't really know of a good response at the moment.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763091
>"I can't have traditional sex, I'm a subhuman freak, I'm trash, I deserve to die" is your view, seriously?
I didn't say this is my view. I said >>10763050. To help paraphrase it for you, I think that sex isn't the main thing at all and mainly only became a problem because of the things George kept saying to her. She wants him to love her enough to understand her and still stick with her, but she doesn't think he will, and since she didn't have much faith in the other two relationships either, destroying her hope for George was sort of a final nail in the coffin.

>You can't dodge the flaws in your argument with "oh Yasu has a weird worldview"
Did you not see my big note at the end of the post you quoted? My argument wasn't "oh Yasu has a weird worldview," I was just putting forth an example before I got to the point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763091
>that is when she decided she was only furniture and nothing more.
Yes. But it doesn't have to be the only factor. A big plot point was that there is only one body but three loves, so the only way all three can find their happiness at the same time is in the cat box, even providing all three will be reciprocated in the first place. Isn't the love duel supposed to be hugely important? It was all about "a furniture can't love a human because it can't give the amount of love that a human can." And I sure don't think Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice killing each other is going to solve a problem of a mutilated body.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763091
>And what is this nonsense about Jessica knowing?
It's only a theory, so if I implied it was more than that then I apologize. However, others have excuses for not knowing that Kanon and Shannon share the same body, as >>10750222 pointed out. But I think that Jessica is the exception, because she is someone who not only lives on the island but is close friends with Shannon and loves Kanon at the same time. It might be a bit of stretch to say that she has no idea. And as >>10750450 pointed out, Jessica didn't exactly seem to be the kind of person who would confront the issue.

Also, I'm not trying to undermine her conflict. Even if Jessica knows, she never mentions anything of the sort, so maybe Clair doesn't know... Or maybe Jessica really doesn't know and Clair is perfectly correct in doubting that she would understand. Both are possible, and neither undermine it. If Jessica really knew and would have accepted her, that just make it more tragic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763124
>This is what you are arguing though?
Not at all. I'm saying it's a problem because of her faith in George's willingness to still love her.

Look, what she said in that red scene at the end of EP7 is that she is no better than furniture because she has a body that cannot love. This was pretty explicit. She didn't say she's no better than furniture because of a gender identity issue. The "cannot love" thing has to be important since she's having a breakdown over it. But yet we know that she's never really been portrayed as the kind of person who would ever make that big a deal out of not having sex. So then how do we rationalize this? George is what comes to mind, right?

Then, isn't her faith in George the main reason why the fall was so important, why it doomed her? It's the only way I know to make sense of this.

This seems to be the core of the argument I'm having with you guys, so if you refute this then I'll shut up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763133
>An idealistic answer might be "it doesn't matter" but then you don't understand why she is suffering so badly.
But is this really the reason she's suffering so badly? Please see >>10763327. Again, if you guys can refute that post then I'll just shut up.
>what information would cause her to have such a terrible gender complex
The gender complex is important, but it being the main source of her trauma just doesn't make sense to me for reasons I just stated, so I'd like to find another way to rationalize it. And without thinking of it as the reason why the fall doomed her, it ends up losing a surprising amount of significance (although of course, it is still significant). No longer do you need to explain why it pained her so terribly much. You only need to explain why the ambiguity and dual gender is the way it is. But this can't be the only way to explain that...

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763191
>I think you are right when you say your memories of things are vague.
You got me there, I fucked up on that one. Somehow I forgot that Lion is being treated as a legit blood member of the family.

>In that case why not do that for Lion.
If Lion shows up in a skirt in EP7 then the debate will almost completely end there. Even if you suppose crossdressing, this goes beyond being inappropriate for a formal occasion. It is much less inappropriate for a female to wear pants, isn't it? But that's a meta reason: it's just there to say that R07 would probably be fucking up the ambiguity big time if he did that. As for an in-universe reason... I honestly don't know. I've never thought of it as being that big a deal for 1986 Lion to wear pants for the conference, and I'm not entirely sure whether it is. But I'll leave this be.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763191
>Hideyoshi is a unique case
That's true, I wish I hadn't let this slip my mind. Lion has Kinzo's complete approval, so the exception would theoretically be made again, but...

>>10763211
Oh, okay. It seems I misunderstood what you were referring to. I will read EP2 prologue again soon to refresh my memory. Also, R07 does indeed talk about it like this in the Answer interview:
"How scary must it be, to be told that your partner „wants children“, when you have a body that cannot make love."
As opposed to finding out after George told that to her. So at least in that regard, what you say seems to be legit (unless the translation just has a misleading sentence structure).

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763211
However, I don't know how to rationalize the fact that "a body that cannot love" seems to be what caused her breakdown if two conditions were not present at the time of the breakdown: 1. He had already told her he wants children, and 2. She had already come to have some kind of hope that the relationship would work out.

And I'm not entirely sure that neither of these conditions could have been present at the time of the red scene.

It's possible to say that they told her about the truth at some point before the red scene, though. And the truth wouldn't prevent her from thinking she had a chance with George if he hadn't already said the stuff about their future. Which allows us to bend it to a degree and put up a theory like "after learning the truth she was skeptical but still placed hope in the relationship, and then at some point when he made a big deal about the children, the red scene happened."

Other than that, I have no idea.

[Anonymous No.]

Why does it always end in a fight over whether Yasu is a boy?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763244
>I don't really have a good counter-argument for this, although Lion apparently "believes in gender equality" so it's possible that he/she/it firmly objected to this treatment.
Yes because a little kid like Lion in flashbacks would be able to tell his mom and grandpa that they refuse to wear dress because of gender equality.

> But I think that Jessica is the exception, because she is someone who not only lives on the island but is close friends with Shannon and loves Kanon at the same time.
Jessica says she doesn't understand what furniture is and why Kanon thinks Shannon and George will fail, and in EP6 she doesn't understand anything that's going on during the love duel.

>Look, what she said in that red scene at the end of EP7 is that she is no better than furniture because she has a body that cannot love. This was pretty explicit. She didn't say she's no better than furniture because of a gender identity issue.
"A body that can't love" IS the gender complex, you don't see how finding out she has a non-female body despite feeling female and wanting to be with men, and even as a man being so damaged, would equal a "body that can't love"? She can't be with anyone of either sex, they'd both find her repulsive.

>However, I don't know how to rationalize the fact that "a body that cannot love" seems to be what caused her breakdown if two conditions were not present at the time of the breakdown: 1. He had already told her he wants children, and 2. She had already come to have some kind of hope that the relationship would work out.
When she finds this out is when she started calling herself furniture. In EP2 she is thinking about whether or not to be in a relationship with George with this in mind even though she knows it is wrong.

Your scope of her problem is too narrow, Yasu thinks she can't be loved by anyone period, not just George, because of her body.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763550
Without love, it cannot be seen.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763662
>"A body that can't love" IS the gender complex
I see, so that's how this is being treated. Interpreting it in this way goes beyond the criteria for the problem according to what she says in the red scene, but it is valid.

And thinking about it now, I do indeed remember now that in EP2, the question is whether Shannon, who considers herself furniture, can be with George. Similarly Kanon with Jessica. So the furniture problem is already there, and yet the red scene seems to indeed be the start of her calling herself that. So the red scene has already happened. And therefore the implication is that the "body that cannot love" is the reason why Clair cannot be with either Shannon or Jessica.

Man, I sure am slow. So then the theory is that he says he is "subhuman" because of the social stigma of homosexuality? That he is so sure that everyone will reject him because he has loved males romantically in the past despite being born male?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763828
with either George or Jessica*

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763828
the first time we hear about furniture is in beatos stories, which were written in her lifetime.

Clair story was written by old battler, much later.
also, shes remembering stuff, not saying it in real time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10762748
it says "grandchild" not "grand-son nor -daughter".

I remember when playing going back to this scene, and checking the "grandchild".

[Anonymous No.]

I wanna ask something far more important:

was Maria flat? did she had little breast?
Are we capable of loving her then?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763992
That's not the problem with the "Clair is female" theory and you know it.

It would be more viable if the gender issue didn't need to be tied to the body problem in the red scene, but as I don't have a counter theory for that at the moment, even I can't say the theory is workable at the moment. At the very least though, that will probably change when I finally get around to rereading Umineko.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10764028
why are you quoting me?
Im gonna reread umineko too, I bet is more enjoyable since we know stuff now.

---

I have a great pic of Maria and Sakutaro kissing, but cant find it at the moment, so this one instead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10764072
ahg, file too large.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763828

Personally, I think that's part of the issue, but it's far more about the social stigma against "men" who try and pass themselves off as "women," especially to the extent of "tricking other men." Those people are actually usually treated as subhuman in society. But she can't just live as a man after spending her entire life as a woman, and as a man she's damaged as well. No matter how much she wants it, Yasu can't fully be either gender, and she knows that George, Battler, Jessica, and probably no one else would love her or see her as anything other than a freak if they'd known the truth about her from the start.

These kind of issues really can truly wreck a person, and have in real life. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

[Anonymous No.]

What was the answer to EP4's final mystery?
I thought about it for a bit, and came up with Beatrice being the name of a trap. Am I wrong? I think it works but it's absolutely ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763992
Maria is quite flat, but don't be a retard. Yes, `we', are capable of loving her in THAT way, but the neurotypicals, and most importantly, the Ushiromiyas. are not.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10763665
This is true.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ugCOuLbQp0

[Anonymous No.]

The best girl

Nihihi~

[Anonymous No.]

>>10766461

[Anonymous No.]

who fell off a cliff before, beato 2 or 3?

did beato 2 really fell off the cliff or was it a merge between beatos?

were the graves inside the chapel or where?

do you think kinzo did necro stuff with the beatos 1 and 2?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10767775
Both; this question is nonsensical; what the fuck gave you this idea?; without love, the truth cannot be seen.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10767785
beato 3 image comes from beato 2 image.

beato 3 says that body (beato 2) was a prision made by kinzo, and death set her free, and now its the beato we know and love.

nonsensical? more thinking to back up that love.

-----------

more important:
do you think erika had little breast or was flat?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10764572
The way sex and gender are made into such an enormous, world-shaking huge deal by human culture is really a problem. If it wasn't, things wouldn't be like this. And when you think about it, it's not really a big deal anyway.

It isn't like we're even talking about things like transgender shit (which isn't a big deal either). This is just a guy acting like a girl for a while. Who the fuck cares?

This pisses me off.

>>10765027
The promised reaper lowers the curtains on the tale regardless of the witch's will.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10768441

You could say there are transgender elements since Yasu clearly mostly feels female even with a male body, since she lived as a female for her whole life and is attracted to men, but it's a bit up for interpretation. She is conflicted between Shannon and Kanon and still views the simply non-wounded and apparently straightforwardly male Lion as her miracle, after all.

I agree that these things shouldn't be a big deal, but to most of society they are - it's not uncommon for people like Yasu to even be beaten and killed for who they are - and it drove Yasu insane.

[Anonymous No.]

Lion's Gender wasn't shown to the others as they would fight about it (there should be no female head). This is why Kinzo himself assured of this fact that Lion was her daughter/granddaughter.