/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>8574956
Wasted premise.

Alexander and Gilgamesh should swap character design.

Decent read.

It's not the worst VN out there.

It's a VN.

This is not a gay porn thread, Freezing.

i thought sabers route was okay, i hated that sluts route, but i must say, UBW was so amazing it passed my expectations.

I like it a lot, but since it's "entry level" material /jp/ is full of hipsters that don't like it.

It's not gay porn

I've liked it since 2004.

Overrated but decent.

The lack of an Ilya route brought the game down a bit.

>>8574956

IT was fucking terrible. I read every route and got every tiger dojo sticker over the course of a day and a half.

The writing was shit, not only because of the shoddy at best translation, but half the character's underlying motives hardly make sense, as exemplified by the 24 ep. anime, which I watched every episode of and own the first two dvd volumes of. The recap OVAs weren't any better, but I was at least able to get BD versions of those.

Fate / Stay the Night lololololololololololol!

>>8575004
>a day and a half.
autism

Not enough routes, but the climax of Heavens Feel made up for it.

>>8575004
>I watched every episode of and own the first two dvd volumes of

Is the "Dragon ball Z" of VN's for the mainstream public.

Very good vn. You probably won't hear a lot of people say that because there's no reason for them to bother posting what they think in this thread.

New /jp/ is shit

>>8575004
That isn't physically possible.

>>8575037
You can finish the whole thing in about 20 or 30 hours give or take a few. It's physically possible, but you're reaching a level of autism beyond words.

why would you watch the anime

>>8575045
So you can shit on the visual novel without reading it.

>>8575045

It was OK. It drags on and some parts bored me but the plot was interesting enough to keep me reading.

>What is /jp/'s honest opinion on Fate/Stay Night?

Juvenile but mildly entertaining.

It made me realize that I could still feel that "Oh shit, this is awesome!" feel.

Fate is okay
Heaven's feel is good.
Unlimited blade works is bad.

It's got the worst ero scenes I've seen.

>>8575004
>I read every route and got every tiger dojo sticker over the course of a day and a half.

I'm pretty sure it isn't possible to do that in 36 hours without outright skipping scenes you have never read.

Shitty fantasy with pokemons.

Probably VNs never can be compared with normal books.

>>8575094
sounds like someone never read Kagetsu Tohya

>>8575095
Nah, its totally doable. My game time barely clocks in at 29 hours and I've tiger stamped 100% etc

The Naruto of V-

Oh wait, that's actually KS now.

In all seriousness, it's not bad, but not the best either

So how did Shiro turn into Archer originally?
Who were the people who supposedly betrayed him?

>>8575150

Fate end, he continues to get stronger and work toward becoming a superhero.

With nobody to stop him at the end of Fate, he turns his mind and body to steel, perfecting it over the course of decades.

>>8575125
Did you even listen to the voices? It takes a lot longer like that.

>>8575150
Undefined?

If FSN wasn't babby's first VN, meaning people often read it without having read any other VNs, meaning it's entry level, meaning it's hugely popular, then they would like it a lot more. But then after people see that they like it a lot it would become babby's first VN.

>>8575150
From the CG we can see he was impaled on sharp weapons in his armor.
This is while he's Shirou, in present day. The people who betrayed him would usually be police, except police generally don't impale people on spikes and swords while letting him stay in full medieval armor.
Actually, what the fuck was with that CG? It's absolutely ridiculous and can't be how he died. Plus, what was the armor? Why would you use that in present day?
Nasu, why can't you make sense?

>>8575164
2 years ago I had this conversation here on /jp/. One anon was convinced his origins were supposed to be explained in the Illya route, and talked about how he allegedly became bitter and remorseful after Illya passed away one year after the grail war ended. He also talked about what would have happened during the 3rd night, the escape from Illya's castle and the confrontation with Gil if Rin had summoned a different servant.

I wish I could find the pasta, despite being borderline fanfiction it was very detailed and entertaining to read.

>>8575183
That doesn't explain the armor and that he was impaled on swords in the 21nd century.

>>8575183
That doesn't really sound like it's borderline. It's plain, unabashed fanfiction.

If saber is supposed to be the best hero at melee combat, why does she constantly get her ass kicked by other melee heroes? (Both berzerkers, both lancers, stabbed by Medea, defeated by Medea's master)

In Heaven's Feel, Shirou easily defeats dark Berzerker by tracing that axe-sword, (which he is able to do because he has Archer's arm). How in the world does Archer not easily defeat Berzerker in Fate?

>>8575185
He's a counter guardian, he's been around.

>>8575202
In before someone brings up Shirou being unable to transfer mana to her. She gets her ass kicked in Fate Zero too.

>>8575208
Not before he became a heroic spirit. He only became one when he died in his time.

>>8575209
Isn't it the class "saber" that's supposed to be the best melee servant, not Arturia herself? Differences in the abilities of the servants can still change things.

saber is supposed to be the best rounded servant

Gilgamesh was the strongest servant in the game

>>8575219
In fate/extra, Rin says something along the lines of "_____ may be one of the strongest servants in existence, possibly even stronger than Arturia..."

>fanfiction

>>8575219
The class Saber is supposed to be the strongest in melee combat, but they constantly pay lip service to how Arturia should be the strongest saber because she is so famous. Also, you haven't addressed my second point.

Was Arturia supposed to be the greatest Saber class?

Even in the earliest legends about Arthur, Arthur was never the greatest warrior of the knights. That always went to others like Lancelot, Galahad, Gawain, Balin, etc, even after factoring in Arthur's magical sword. Without Excalibur, Arthur would have been near the bottom of the combat power ladder.

Arthur's skill was always leadership and charisma.

So, it seems reasonable that Arturia is not the greatest close quarters combatant, even if her class is the strongest.

>>8575202

Due to a combination of his incompetent master, space-time continuity bullshit, and Archer being a counter guardian instead of a heroic spirit, Archer is summoned with Amnesia of who he is and what his abilities are or how they work.

Also, Seiba doesn't go 100%, she takes things easy and spars with everybody using minimal effort/energy and playing the battle of attrition as an un-tiring entity fighting another un-tiring entity. At least until she gets injured to the point where her body doesn't correctly function, then she starts putting out effort.

Oh, but seiba does fight berserker evenly matched in the graveyard at the start of UBW, if that counts for anything.

>>8575202
Dark Berserker was blind and half dead.

Was Shrious sister hot?

>>8575241
At full power will full NPs she'd be pretty bullshit to fight.

I stopped reading before completing the prologue because it was mind-numbing boring.

>>8575265
Shirou has a real blood-related imouto in that Illya spin-off manga or at least people are speculating her to be Shirou's real imouto.

>>8575275
did u try to read FSN to get into Fate/Zero?

>>8575285
No, I was trying to see what all the hype was about.

>>8575246
Archer clearly knows who he is in UBW, why doesn't he know in Fate? Also, he kills Berzerker a full 5 times in Fate, so he couldn't have forgotten his ability. In that case, he should have been able to kill Berzerker the full 12 times.

Why does tracing Caliburn make Shirou and Saber suddenly able to kill berzerker? Caliburn is weaker than Excalibur.

>>8575298

Not at the beginning, at least.

Rin even asks Archer what the hell is up with him using swords as a main weapon (for an archer), and being able to summon a new one each time it's knocked out of his hands.

He also somewhat remembers who he is in HF, as well. It's mainly just fate and the area up before the split that he has no damn clue, but only UBW where he regains his entire memory.

Also, you severely underestimate just how stupidly powerful Excalibur is. Gil only has *one* weapon capable of competing with it, after all.

>>8575298
Archer probably only had amnesia for the first night.
Archer could've died for any number of reasons, such as the battlefield not being ideal for him, lolE Rank Luck, fighting more defensively to ensure he bought as much time as possible, instead of say with a higher chance to kill Berserker, but at a higher chance of getting killed quicker himself. We don't see how the fight happens, so it's beyond our knowing.

And while Caliburn may be weaker than a full powered Excalibur, a full powered Excalibur takes a ridiculously huge amount of mana to perform. More so than Saber had, even after the mana transfer.

Obviously, as swords are designed to be used with two hands max, both Shirou and Saber wielding Caliburn for a total of 4 hands on it doubled it's power.

Is it even realistic for a writer to remain consistent over 10 years of writing and multiple megabytes of world building?

>>8575325
In fact, I'm pretty sure there's a bad end there, where if you don't stop Saber from using Excalibur she only manages to kill Berserker another handful of times with it, and instantly fades away due to lack of mana afterwards.

>>8575327
It would be nice if he would at least remain consistent over a single game. He randomly adjusts how strong characters are on the fly. It's bad writing.

>>8575327
Yes, only for the greats like Tolkien though.

Nasu retcons as he goes with each installment, so whatever.

>>8575354
You could ask Nasu the same question the next day and you'd be liable to get a completely different answer it seems.

>>8575325
I'm not sure if I'm misremembering, but I believe that Archer doesn't actually have the personal capacity to use a full-strength Excaliblast normally.

TRANSLATED VN'S GO IN
>>>/vg/
GTFO

>>8575364
Neither Archer or Shirou can actually trace Excalibur now. So lolNasu.
Though, Archer says in UBW he could relatively match the output of Saber's. It'd just require him to go past his limit and be dead afterwards regardless of the outcome of the clash of the blasts,

>>8575164
Actually, Nasu said that Archer doesn't come from any of the routes at all.

He's from a different timeline apparently.

>>8575202
You know how the characters constantly harp on about why Shirou is a bad match for Saber?

That's why she's not 100%

>inb4 Rin's Saber is best Saber

TRANSLATED VN'S GO IN
>>>/vg/
>>>/vg/
GTFO

>>8575395
Hm... Let me think...

No?

>>8575402
Reported for purposely and viciously breaking the rules
>>/vg/

Fate route was boring until you got to the church scene.

UBW was kinda fun since you had that paradox hero who wanted to kill his past self.

Heaven's Feel was....a good read to be honest. I didn't like Sakura that much since lolimahypocriteslut but it was a solid story, imo.

>>8575405
Take it easy and relax.

You're obviously being /a/utistic here.

>>8575395
are you stupid on purpose?

>>8575384
>Neither Archer or Shirou can actually trace Excalibur now. So lolNasu.
Wait, what? Since when was Excalibur an EX NP? Fucking Nasu.

>>8575409
As per new rules all translated VN's MUST go into >>>/vg/
Anything untranslated may still be posted here till the rules are changed or they are translated
>>>/vg/

>>8575409
probably. part of the group of /jp/ that doesn't want anything here at all. I can't wait for the VNTS thread to get spammed to death by the slobbering morons.

>>8575417
>*Translated* VN can be posted on both
hurr
But you're a shitposter anyway, so it doesn't matter what anyone says.

>>8575412
It's because it was made by fairies or some nonsense, and uses materials not found on Earth and thus not in UBW or something like

>>8575417
Reread the sticky, faggot, he just updated it to say they can go in both.

>>8575417
as per
>>8575072
that is incorrect. Please read the sticky before you assume you know the new board policies.

>>8575412
The problem was that Excalibur was not wholly made of "this world."

Similar to Ea, which was made of unknown space substance X or some shit, Excalibur was constructed with faery magic. If Shirou/Archer can't discern the origins (they can't understand non-gaia forms) then they can't trace it. If Archer did a broken phantasm he could match the output of Saber at the time (when she was weakened), but he wouldn't be able to match the raw output of the sword at full strength.

>>8575412
They can trace Excalibur but it's too much of a drain.

UBW Shirou tracing excaliBEAM would kill himself.
And we know what happens to HF Shirou.

Archer can trace it, but it takes too much prana to do so.

>inb4 Fakers can't trace Ea.

>>8575425
Though, this was from whatever Character Material or whatever came out around a year ago, or whenever, so Nasu may have retconned it again in the meantime.

>>8575425
>>8575433
I thought that was Avalon? And being made of materials not found on Earth was considered a crucial part of being EX. If he really said this, then Excalibur is either EX now, or he changed the ranking rules (or I'm an idiot and am misremembering). Either way, it's a pain in the arse.

>>8575425
The rules only just got updated for that. This thread is now once again within the rules so I will leave it. Have fun.

>>8574956

Please move your discussion to >>>/vg/

Thank you.

>>8575441
Avalon was special because it was inside Shirou for like ten years.

It's not that Excalibur was made from materials not from this earth, it's that Shirou/Archer couldn't trace the process (how the blade was forged), since faeries made it.

They could make the blade, but it would be weaker than it's original (more than one rank), since it wasn't recreated perfectly. But, again, if Archer made a broken phantasm he would annihilate everything including himself. That's more or less a testament to how strong the sword is, even if it isn't perfect.

>>8575386
But she gets her ass kicked by Lancer and Berzerker and Fate/Zero, when she should have been at full strength.

>>8575441
No.
Shirou can trace Avalon from it being shoved inside him for so long, as shown by the end of Fate.
If he tries to trace Excalibur he'll end up with "Excalibur" is how Nasu put it. Something close, but still wholly different.

>>8575443
In case you're not trolling, this _is_ a Japanese VN, so it belongs here. See the last post of our sticky.

>>8575202

>If saber is supposed to be the best hero at melee combat, why does she constantly get her ass kicked by other melee heroes?

Was it ever stated that she was the BEST hero at Melee combat? Cause I surely don't remember that...

But even if she was,whatever. She loses quite a number of melee fights because she's just nerfed for the sake of PLOT and at the beginning of basically everything she is featured in as a Servant,she has one of her NP's essentially stolen from her. At full power the only person she'd have trouble with out of all those is maybe the Berserkers.

>>8575459
Not trolling? I don't think he could be much more obvious.

>>8575452
Zero Berserker was barely a fight.
She finds out his identity and then gets wailed on until he impales himself of Excalibur.
And against Zero Lancer, that's because of his NPs.
NPs break the rules, and allow weaker servants to overcome stronger servants. It's sort of their whole shtick.

>>8575456
This.

Archer/Shirou needs to understand the origin of the blade, the user of the blade, the material of the blade, the form (shape) of the blade, the history of the blade, and the process of how it was made.

If he gets even one of those wrong then the projection becomes imperfect.

Because Avalon was inside him for so long, his body "understood" the artifact.

However, the origins of how Excalibur was made are mostly a mystery, and even then, the process is probably non-gaian, which is a problem for humans.

It's like in Tsukihime how Tohno can't see the lines of death for things that don't have a gaian concept of death. He only see's death as he understands death.

It's entry level not that there's anything really wrong with that. Sometimes Shirou can be really annoying and sometimes he can be really likeable.

Pretty bad in retrospect. What really drags it down even further is the fanbase though.

>>8575202
>In Heaven's Feel, Shirou easily defeats dark Berzerker by tracing that axe-sword, (which he is able to do because he has Archer's arm). How in the world does Archer not easily defeat Berzerker in Fate?
HF Shirou did not, easily defeat the tainted Berserker. The Trigger Off move is a suicide move, Archer or Shirou.
That aside, the tainted Berserker was blind, was dying, and had his flesh ripped off somehow including God Hand.
Tainted Berserker is typically seen as almost nothing of his former self, both here and by the Japanese community, cause everything points to that.

>Archer
>amnesia
It is very likely that Archer didn't have any amnesia at all and simply played Rin like a card.

>>8575911

Then he could have butchered Gil the moment he saw him.

>>8575926

>Needlessly pick a fight with one of the strongest servants in the war

lolno

Besides there is no benefit to that for him since I highly doubt whatever unwritten route he comes from that Gil ever actually got in his way till the end.

>>8575926
I really don't see why he should risk doing that.
In fact, he half-lied to Rin, and said that he wasn't one of the Servants. He likely wanted Rin to be on guard with that guy, but still refrain from polluting her mind with needless worries and potential panic.

It's entertaining. A solid game as long as you don't let the unlimited powerleveling and the often inconsistent characterizations get to you.

But the most fun part of any TM game is trying to get all the bad ends. What most disappointed me about the Mahoutsukai no Yoru announcements wasn't the lack of voice or ero or the short length, but hearing that it was linear and chances to end up in Tiger Dojo wouldn't be forthcoming.

I felt that UBW route was overrated, it seemed superficially awesome but plot wise Shirou doesn't make any progress with his naive idealism.

Also, I don't understand the hate on heaven's feel and on sakura.

I liked it when I played it, but the excessive media coverage and the fan activities of TYPE-MOON fanatics made me eventually flip that opinion.

>>8576427
The hate on Sakura comes from people disliking her unstable mentality and not fully understanding what Kirei meant when he told Sakura that she was still Sakura.

>>8576433
I honestly fail to see how the activities of others should retroactively affect your own honest objective opinion of the game itself.

same opinion as umineko
It's utter shit, but it's tastier to eat shit when it's fresh and steaming

>>8576438
You forgot bandwagoners who hate her even before reading her route because of second-hand information.

>>8576427

A lot of it was because the first two routes spent so long going on and on about Shirou's bullshit ideals and how they were set in stone, and then in HF he just drops them instantly to save one person and never looks back. It's centred around the "mind of steel" bad end in particular I think, a lot of people see it as the more natural choice for Shirou to make after playing the first two routes.

Also she's a slut.

>>8576459
>a lot of people see it as the more natural choice for Shirou to make after playing the first two route
Shirou actively killing people like Tohsaka and Ilya is the more natural choice now?

>>8576472

If it was to save hundreds of other lives yes, look at Archer.

>>8576427
I liked Heaven's Feel the best out of the routes, but still Sakura made for a poor heroine imo. I'm ok with used goods, betraying what you believed in for love and all that stuff, but all her passive aggressiveness bullshit kind of put me off. She didn't really make me think "I want to save this girl no matter what!" like the narration had Shirou think. I guess I like what Nasu tried to do but he could have gone about it better with her character, though I understand this is mostly a personal preference problem.

>>8576480
That is why Archer broke in the first place.
If poeple like Shirou, or any other character in FSN, it should be the worst choice.

>>8576427
Mr problem with Heaven's Feel route is that it drags on horribly for the most part. It has a couple of strong parts to it, the Mind of Steel decision and the end-game part. Sakura is also considerably less interesting than the other heroines, and it doesn't help that she's an antagonist in her own route.

It was OK, but a massive disappointment compared to Tsukihime, which I enjoyed a whole lot more. To be fair, they're quite different. Tsukihime had a really nice atmosphere, while F/SN was probably more plot-focused.

Did not like F/SN's exposition--the entire concept of the Holy Grail war was difficult to take seriously, considering how four of the masters were just high school kids (F/Z did a much better job selling the concept).

The writing felt unnecessarily padded and verbose, at times devoting numerous paragraphs explaining something that OK, we got it Nasu. The Fate route was okay, but in all honesty I thought it felt similar to Arcueid's route from Tsukhime, except much longer (and the heroines were different, of course). UBW was dreadful (the Message installer debacle certainly didn't help). HF, to its credit, was easily the most interesting route and the side characters really shined in it.

On the whole, F/SN was overly long and lacked the qualities that made me love Tsukihime, so I found it disappointing albeit decent with good production values.

>>8576500

also other than Ciel, Tsukihime heroines are pretty much all god tier.

>>8576500

I know what you mean about the side characters shining in HF, it always intentionally came across as the Sakura/Ilya route, but even Rin seemed to get a lot more development than she did in her own damn route.

>>8576499
>is also considerably less interesting than the other heroines
At least she features in her route. Unlike Rin, who was only interesting in HF.

>>8575911
archer had amnesia. he remembered everything after he saw saber the first time. get it right retards

I feel like it had some much wasted potential.

Still enjoyed it.

Brilliant years was my favourite ending.

>>8576516
Too true, although it wouldn't be wrong to call UBW the Archer route rather than Rin's route.

>>8576523
He doesn't remember in Fate since he was stuck guarding the mansion and recuperating.

>>8575911
Supplementary materials state that his memory really was scrambled at least until the end of the second night.

>>8576533
But he was giving all sorts of hints to Shirou about how to use his specific brand of projection.

>>8576533
he rememberd. he even comment on how he would not try killing shirou in fate because he wanted to try and not make the same mistake he did.
and how rin would be sad if he died.

FSN is twice as long as it should be.

was it even stated if rins mom was a mage?

Why does Archer want to stop being a CG if he no longer cares about his ideals?

>>8576538
I don't remember that part, but then again it's been years since I last read this.

>>8576537
If he remembered he wouldn't be helping him especially Fate Shirou is the closest in ideals to archer.

>>8576544

She's just a normal person that married into the Tohsaka line if I remember correctly, Tokiomi was in charge of all the decisions in the family, including giving Sakura away.

>>8576546
He wants to put an end to "the boy who just didn't want to see anyone cry... could only see crying humans forever" and erase his existence.

And on the off chance the paradox wasn't great enough to erase his existence, he just wanted to take out his rage on his younger self.

>>8576544
she's not, however she has a particular trait that allows her to give really rare and awesome affinities to her children, that's why Tokiomi married her.

>>8576546
because killing people and fighting primal murder for an eternity sucks?

>>8576548
did he know about the worms?

>>8576557
Nope. Kariya thinks he does and that's why he wants to kill him, but he actually doesn't.

this man. this. fucking. man. saved the entire HF route on his own

>>8576544
why didn't she tell Tokiomi about sakura?

>>8576500
>The writing felt unnecessarily padded and verbose, at times devoting numerous paragraphs explaining something that OK, we got it Nasu.
Tsukihime shares this problem though, as in alot.
In all honestly, Tsukihime shares most of f/sn's problems.

>>8576580
>>8576500
It's a translation problem actually.
It reads fine in Japanese.

The translation sacrificed the text's poetic quality for accuracy.

People expect it to be an action adventure with magic and legendary figures of history duking it out in an action story.
But it's not, as it is rather about the in story characters believing the above to be the case and how it affects their lives and how they later adjust to realizing that the above is bullshit.

So those looking for the false premise more often than not feels like they were let down.

>>8576557

No, although there tends to be a lot of arguing over this, but as near as I can tell he actually thought it would be a "better" life for her to be raised as a magus by another family, than to be permanent second fiddle to Rin and never be taught anything. I'm also sure there was something mentioned in the F/0 LN about the problem with both his daughters having such rare elemental affiliations (Imaginary Element in Sakura's case) is that the Clock Tower would have an issue with her being a normal person, or something like that, it's been a while since I read it though.

>>8576562

Because she's a useless bitch who let's her husband and the man who loves her fight to the death over a misunderstanding without ever once saying anything.

>>8576613
>But it's not, as it is rather about the in story characters believing the above to be the case and how it affects their lives and how they later adjust to realizing that the above is bullshit.
Not really.

>F/0
No offense, but why did people start this? No one wrote F/0 prior to the anime adaptation.
I just don't really get why /a/ felt some need to write it like that as opposed to F/Z as befoe.

>>8576613
FSN is about building a setting and explaining rules, that's all.

>>8576622
It's just people who got in via the anime thinking it's an acceptable abbreviation. Before the anime, nobody called it F/0. Possibly because there's already a game called F-Zero.

>>8576617
>Not really.
It happens in each and every route to various extents.
The premise of grail war just couldn't be more false either way. That's not the kind of story F/SN is.

It does have figures of legend, and there is some action.
But primarily it is relatively day to day life scenes and how the nature of the ritual affects their lives and judgement.

>>8576631
Except there is pretty much nothing about "how it affects their lives".
FSN never goes in depth about it

>>8576622

True, I never really thought about it before considering it's just an abbreviation though, I always used to write it as F/Z but the entire point of abbreviations is to have them as widely recognized as possible, so I guess at some point I switched without realizing it to the way that started being used more once the LN was animated.

>>8576459
>and then in HF he just drops them instantly to save one person and never looks back
Not this again.
That choice, was not, some kind of choice between keeping or dropping the ideal.

No matter the choice Shirou's ideal wouldn't have gone by unscathed. Their ideal leaves no room for compromise, because it is ideal.
The whole design of it was that both options were unacceptable. And as things were unacceptable, there was no speaking of "more" or "less", unacceptable is simply unacceptable.
With no choice ideally being the acceptable choice to go, Shirou was finally faced with an element of personal choice, preference. With no option being acceptable, how would he want things to turn out? The whole idea of him even being able to consider that option in a scenario in which no outcome is acceptable is in short the core of his dilemma in HF.

But in large part I think the translation is part to blame here. "Superhero", while arguably a decent/good translation all in all, just falls sort of off here.
"Persist on being a Superhero" just gives the wrong impression to the reader. Whenever superhero was mentioned in F/SN it more strictly meant "ally of justice", ala Tokusatsu Power Rangers/Kamen Rider, who are still practically superheroes, but that doesn't necessarily make "ally of justice" and "superhero" the same.
Whenever Shirou discussed his ideal or view on superheroes, Shirou described his form of justice. Justice being being subjective, people can naturally view it differently, and Shirou had his way to view it that corresponded to his ideal. In short, Shirou's justice was ideal.

"Persist on being a Superhero" is flawed because it gives you the impression that outcome A is heroic and outcome B isn't. But that's far from the case in HF. Part of Archer's whole nagging on Shirou, and very directly so in HF, have been remarks and pestering on Shirou's view of ideal justice, and that justice and out of itself isn't really that fair in practice.
Archer pestered Shirou on the dilemma of Sakura and the potential victims, "Justice" as commonly perceived demands the masses to be saved. So when all else fails, could Emiya Shirou really give up on being an "ally of justice"? Of course not, and Archer knew that far too well. Emiya Shirou have dedicated his entire life to being an "ally of justice", of course he can't give up on that so suddenly there was never any question about it. But here is the thing, despite all that this choice isn't that easy anyway, and why is that? Because Shirou's justice isn't just any justice, Shirou's justice is ideal.

None of the outcomes allowed for an ideal resolution. That's why Shirou's view of justice is flawed, not because his sense heroism is wrong in anyway, but because justice in practice isn't ideal no matter how much you pursue it.
In one scenario Shirou "persists" on being an "ally of justice". You persist despite of something, an opposition. In this case Shirou's ideal ideal, Shirou's justice, was already broken, so would Shirou clinge on the idea of "justice" in spite of that? Choice A.
In the other scenario Shirou can't find himself to take an innocent life, a sacrifice. Shirou's ideal, Shirou's justice, was already broken, but Shirou's ideal never had any room for sacrifice, Shirou never wanted to take an innocent life that should have been saved, and it's the life of a loved one even.

No matter the choice, Shirou desperately wants no one to get hurt. No matter the scenario, Shirou's ideal, Shirou's justice, is already broken, but no matter the scenario Shirou still carries a sense of justice.
Shirou is still a hero in both scenarios, but what a hero consists of is subjective.

>>8574956

>>8576726
>>8576731
>>8576735
That entire event was utterly retarded, it was just bad writing.
During that scene nobody (but Kotomine) knew that Sakura was the shadow.

The only reason they even thought about killing Sakura was because they were afraid Zouken could control Sakura as a puppet.

But it was a big maybe and even Rin agreed that Sakura wasn't much of a danger, she just had to stay in Shirou's house.
So the whole ZOMG I MUST KILL SAKURA choice make no sense, especially considering Shirou makes the exact same choice in Fate without any problem.

>>8576746
It's a pretty lame reason given it's more akin to a magical gut feeling.
But Shirou did sense Sakura in the Shadow, they made a semi-big deal out of it.

But otherwise yeah, the whole "everyone are going to die" was somewhat overblown. Shirou was a bit more certain of it than the others, but he didn't want to believe it and he couldn't exactly call his gut feeling a reliable source.

>>8576746
how about the second time he tried to kill her?

by then he knew she was the shadow but lived in denial

>>8576830
By then he was a shell of a man.
He was still thinking he would have to kill her in the end till he got the whole rule-breaker idea.

>>8576830
Sakura pledged to Shirou to not let her become an evil person.
In the end Sakura was a very scared and fragile person that despite being scarred from an awful life, knew what pain was and didn't want to harm anyone.

Too fucking long.

I like Fate/Stay Night but I really don't understand why. Maybe all the nice doujin stuff, maybe because I loved Tsukihime, maybe because parts of UBW/HF are pretty decent. But the more I actually think about FSN the more I am convinced it's technically a gigantic steaming pile of shit.

i liked it better when it was called fate prototype, and the dumb shirou was a semi hot geeky girl with glasses.

>>8576899
It's more than the sum of its parts, or something. Thing is, if you actually liked something to begin with I don't see the advantage in thinking over it and looking for all its little flaws to the point where you no longer like it, as that simply denies you of the enjoyment you could be having otherwise.

>>8576899
I don't really see how you can like something, yet later conclude it isn't good. Maybe you can enjoy something while aware it isn't very good, but then you'd realize this while enjoying it, not after.

It seems more like you're repulsed by things you now associate with it more than anything.

>>8576902
Ignoring the troll.
Why do people so often think of Ayaka as Shirou?
They seriously don't have much in common at all, if anything Ayaka is proto-Rin.

>>8576940
by that i meant protagonist. i liked it better when the story followed a hot nerd girl rather than a dumb ass overgrown kid.

>>8576902
Ignoring the troll.
Why do people so often think of Ayaka as Shirou?
They seriously don't have much in common at all outside of being protagonists. If anything Ayaka is proto-Rin.

>>8576940
not even close. Ayaka is her own character. would love to see more of proto sakura and rider

Its great and I love my saber. If you're going to play it then get this torrent:
http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/4915049/Fate_Stay_Night_Visual_novel___patches

It''s translated into English text with Japanese voices. Although I'm still new to VN's, I've played ever17 and tsukime and g senjou, but F/SN is definitively the best.

I knew it was a good idea to make this.

FINISH HER

FATALITY

>>8576957
...and nothing heart

>>8576948
She has more in common with Rin than Shirou at the very least.
But yeah, she is her own character.

>>8576955

How did F/sn manage to gain such a huge following? Lots of hyping?

>>8577475
famous cooking scenes

>>8577475
Yeah, TM kind of followed the same kind of hype KS got.

Basically Tsukihime was released and it got a cult following among doujin fans, it was a period when the doujin market was really exploding too.
After that the fans decided to make Tsukihime "their" game and hyped it to hell and back making a lot of side content.
It also helped that Nasu basically gave them free reign to do whatever they wanted.

After that, TM got some nice producers and using that fanbase hyped FSN for 3 years non-stop.
By the end it got so big even mainstream magazines were talking about it.
Add to that that Clannad that was similarly hyped for year was set to be released around the same time and it basically added even more to the hype, making some sort of ultimate duel.

Shirou didn't give up his ideals to save Sakura, he was forced into a situation that would make him give up his ideals no matter what option he picked. He could save Sakura for a possible worse case scenario, or he could kill Sakura for a possible greater good, in either case his ideals were as good as dead when he was given a choice where they were compromised either way.

His ideal is to save everyone, not to pick and choose who to save. When it comes down to someone being killed by his choices then he's failed.

>>8577475
A simple concept

"Heroes from the past being summoned to take part in a war between mages."

Seriously, it's hard to go wrong with that idea

>>8577489
>Shirou didn't give up his ideals to save Sakura, he was forced into a situation that would make him give up his ideals no matter what option he picked
Except that's wrong.
Shirou wasn't betraying his ideal by letting Sakura lives during that scene.
Again the mind of steel choice had nothing to do with the shadow.
It was just about letting a poor girl lives or not because some old fuck could possibly control her body.
Even Rin says that she wasn't really dangerous and really the only one in danger would be Shirou.

The entire drama during that scene was bad writing, especially considering that Shirou makes the EXACT same choice in Fate without any drama.

>>8577475
A combination of interesting premise and following by fanbase from TM's Tsukihime days.

going to be honest OP, I didn't finish FS/N. I dropped it. I read for about 12 hours or so and jut could not get immersed or overly interested. I think I'll go back and give it another go but I think it may have just not been my thing.

>>8577487
Type Moon is incredibly popular in Japan too. It's old stuff most of it, but it is still held in very high regard.

So it's not only how it was translated and introduced in the west, believe it or not.

>>8577563
Can't you read?

Pretty good read except for the glaring pacing issues thanks to the SoL-like format that it uses.

UBW was pretty retarded at times.

>>8577503
>EXACT same choice in Fate without any drama.
Talking about Kotomine aren't you? Well, it's not exactly the same. Sakura never wanted to do anyone any harm, and was technically all things considered, innocent. A direct victim even.
Kotomine? Now that's some messed up person. Of course, technically speaking he should have been saved too, but I still wouldn't call the scenarios to be exactly the same.

>>8577576
Actually I'm talking about Ilya.
Both Saber and Rin repeatedly tell Shirou that he shouldn't protect her, she is someone who is aiming at his life after all.
But he doesn't care and let her live with him, he flats out say that he is okay with it even if she tries to kill him again since only his life would be in danger.

Same thing, by letting Sakura lives with him in HF the only one in danger is Shirou.

>>8577560
First route is always the weakest in Nasu works, the last route is always where the revelations are.

>>8577598
>First route is always the weakest in Nasu works
I can't say I agree with that, at least regarding the ending's consistency. Saber's route, albeit very straightforward, has in my opinion the most credible (and touching) epilogue. The only other epilogue that made me feel that way is the HF normal ending. UBW true is just leaving with an unsolved problem - Shirou has kept the ideal that would lead him to his demise, and we have no indication that it would be otherwise - and HF true epilogue is just a disguised forced good ending.

>>8577851
>and we have no indication that it would be otherwise
Well, you need to trust Rin.

>>8577589
Don't you think one could argue that an extension of Zouken is more of a threat to the general public than a Servant-less Illya?

In either case, even if they didn't know about the shadow, you need to take note of how Shirou at least, thought he knew.

>>8577883

Not really true. Kotomine was trolling when he said he couldn't do anything for Sakura, and she could have survived the surgery even without using command seals. Her body is tough, since Zouken ironically experimenting on it so long, what with the poisoning and stuff.

And Unlimited Codes hints she might actually be pretty resilient naturally, even without Angra Mainyu, which is likely why she survived being experimented on for such a length of time.

Plus the Shadow thing can be solved by just destroying the Greater Grail, which is better for everyone else anyway, kill two birds with one stone.

>>8576943

She looks a lot like genderbent Shiki.

>>8577978

Tiger Dojo was the best part of it. I only played to get every Tiger Dojo.

>>8577876
>trust Rin

>>8577598
I'm not sure I agree in the case of F/Sn. If you get past the awkward wording Saber's route had purpose. I don't think it's any worse than HF.

Am I the only one who found this underwhelming as fuck? I mean, it was okay, but it just felt kind of like wasted potential.

Maybe it's because I marathoned Muv Luv Alternative and Ever 17 before it, so it felt a bit bland compared to those.

It made me want to stick my penis in Illya-chan.

>>8578412
she deserves it the fucking slut

TYpe moon threads in a nutshell.

>Sakura is a slut
>Rin is a bitch
>Taiga is the best girl
>Where is my Illya Route
>Mongrels
>Shiki can kill servants. Discuss.


Incidently what does /jp/ think about Saber?

>>8578563
Unconditional love

>>8578563
"Saber is boring" is right there up with "Sakura is a slut" and "Rin is a bitch" as far as tm threads staples go

>>8578412
Rin loved her sister.
She must have thought that even if it was tough for her, it is most likely what's best for her. To be the heir and future head of a prestiged magi family.
Of course Rin didn't know just how badly the situation at the Matous were, but from the looks of it, it must simply have seemed like a very tough but promising life.
And in the future they could both be heads of prestieged magi families.

She felt horrible when she realized Sakura's true situation.

>>8578595
Rin didn't even care about checking on her either.
They went to the same high school and it was obvious that Sakura wasn't mentally stable.
If she was my sister, I'd at least want to know what kind of life she has and Rin can probably create familiars to follow her for a day.

>>8578595
>She felt horrible

>>8578595
Rin herself noted that Sakura never once smiled after leaving the Tohsaka house except when Shirou was around, that ain't the best sign that things are going alright.

>>8578609
Then she went and fucked him.

And even in HF she gets NTR'ed by his wetdream.

>>8578602
Sakura was told by Zouken to act like she never had a sister, it's not like she could be all buddies with her
and you think Zouken wouldn't have noticed familiars inside his own house? Let alon how that that breach of privacy would be a pretty big no no between allied magi families like the Matous and Tohsakas were

>>8578578
Don't forget "Ilya is heartless"

>>8578638
>it's not like she could be all buddies with her
It's not just with her, it's about EVERYONE ELSE AROUND HER. Any normal person would have noticed.
>and you think Zouken wouldn't have noticed familiars inside his own house?
Considering he goes out a lot, including the HGW for two routes? Easy enough.

>>8578604
>She felt horrible
Yes. Or perhaps more accurately she felt that it was horrible.

Rin straight down declared that she wouldn't (couldn't) even try to sympathise with Sakura. Not because she didn't care, not because she didn't love her, but because their life experiences are so vastly different that she couldn't even begin to actually understand how it must have felt like for Sakura.

So, it basically amounts to how she cut Sakura short, and declared that although she can't sympathise with her sister, she still loves her.
To love without despite not understanding everything is a pure form of love. Conditionless love.

For some reason people tend to misinterpret her rather blunt declaration and refusal of sympathy to mean that she didn't love her.
Which is something I find rather odd considering how she declared her love for her not long afterwards.

>>8578643
>Any normal person would have noticed.
Just like you understood at once that she had been raped repeatedly while playing just the common route before Fate, right?
>Considering he goes out a lot
you're being silly, magus workshops have all kinds of bounded fields on them

>>8578643
I believe Shinji forced her to join the archery club to give her the illusion of normalcy, but even Shirou noticed fairly early on that Shinji was beating Sakura. Which led to Shirou confronting Shinji on it, then beating up Shinji and saying that he better not find any more bruises on her or he's coming back.

>>8578616

>>8578609
To be fair, that a person isn't smiling and looks or feels relatively depressed isn't exactly a sign that their life is without hope. Magus life is known to be tough, Rin might easily have thought that the Matous were simply stricter, which in a sense was also the case even if that wasn't all there was to it.

Besides, Shirou never smiled either. Though he was sort of active which easily creates an illusion of health. But on that note it's not as if Sakura was the most inactive girl around either.

I am about to start F/SN soon, have a few basic questions before I get started:

Is there a recommended order of routes, or are the 3 pretty much independent story lines?
Are there good/bad/multiple endings for each route, or only 1 for each? Re the choices pretty obvious for which route you want to go?

Thanks, I have too much to do and little time, so I don't want to spin my wheels trying to play this long game

i wonder why they never send shirou to a therapist.
everyone knew he was not right in the head and tiga knew about hes dreams and just laughs it out.

>>8578700
Routes are linear

There are two endings for each, aside from the first

>>8578700
The game will guide you. Just play it.

You should not read this thread.

Zero Bers> 5th Berserk.
Is this right? since Lancelot >Gil and Gil>Heracles.

>>8578724
Gil is only above Hercules due to alignment issues, Herc's stats are on par or surpassing Gil's. When they fought in UBW Berserker couldn't dodge less Ilya would have been killed by the sword rain in an instant, and Herc still broke the chain of the heaven's in the end despite his divinity(Some people think this was an asspull but it's more of a reference to his legend where he broke unbreakable chains shackling a god, it still didn't save him either)

One of the best things about Fate is that every servant in the fifth war "had" the potential to take out any other servant based on the conditions of the battle, Gil just had an extremely favorable position against Berserker.

>>8578724
yeah, nah.

gil never went serious with zero bers.

fate bers would also rape zero

>>8578735
Gil did get mostly serious during the Dogfight scene, he was actually excited that a mere animal could push him this far.

However a few minutes past and he got bored

They were both mostly going all out, Gil used everything short of EA.

>>8578724

The Nasuverse is rockpaperscissors. Just because Berserker can put up a good fight against Gil does not mean he would put up a good fight against Herc.

I would've thought that FE would have pounded that into everyones head already with its literal RPS gameplay.

>>8578737

>"had" the potential to take out any other servant based on the conditions of the battle

Can't say i'd believe that for Rider but eh. Chance is a weird thing.

>>8578841
It took Excalibur to kill Rider when it was just her and shinji fucking around.

Rider was much stronger when Sakura was actually taking control.

Where the fuck was the Caster route

Talking about F/S N, the hero is back.

http://exhentai.org/g/466310/7ce6637602/

which fsn cud shiki fuk>?

>>8578841
Rider can match Saber in a hand to hand, and her NP can just about match Excalibur. In fact it matched and beat the strongest version of Excalibur with a little help from the strongest anti-projectile shield while Sakura was her master.

Not to mention her mystic eyes and Gorgan strength.

Every page has a little treasure in it.

>>8578870
Evil bitches don't get no routes.

>>8578927

>>8578927
>>8578937
Hiroyuki has still got it

>>8578870
I've said it before but a route where Shirou summons Caster would be kind of fun. It'd be kind of like Extra Caster, except you find out that she's eating people half way into the route because you're a lousy master, then mana transfers.

Final battle is against Berserker

I can see it now

>>8578949
Yep

>>8578895
The best.

>>8578950
by the time Shirou gets his turn Caster has already been summoned and changed masters even. Also, they have the worst affinity for each other as the Ataraxia minigame shows.

>>8578955
I waited for a bit for it load because it was blurry.

>>8578963
HA isnt canon

>>8578966
Snap!, my bad wait a sec.

>>8578983
ahahah oh wow

>>8578982

>>8578960
being kenny is suffering

>>8579011
Suffering suffering

Dunno what to edit in this page, it's perfect, isn't it?

I want to be tsundere, no matter what.

>>8579011

>>8574956
The anime, the manga, or the VN?

>>8580005
VN, get out

>>8580010
But this is the board for the japanese VNs!
It's even in the sticky.

>>8580014

He's telling to get out for even considering other possibilities than the VN, you moron.

>>8580014

>>8580020
Well then he's just being grumpy and getting mad for nothing.

>>8578655

>For some reason people tend to misinterpret her rather blunt declaration and refusal of sympathy to mean that she didn't love her.
Which is something I find rather odd considering how she declared her love for her not long afterwards.

Yes, but that was *afterwards*, and a good (if unfortunate) thing that Shirou had done away with Saber beforehand. Rin knew that Sakura consciousness and mentality were fading as she was becoming the Grail, and was not able to think clearly.

As much as she might have truly loved her sister, this was not the time to say things in such a roundabout manner, the way she worded it was easily misinterpreted. Not only that, by only waiting until she was stabbed by her, she heaped even more guilt upon her. It's not like that possession is something you can just shrug off. Well meaning as she was, Rin kinda made things worse than they had to be those last few days.

>>8578657
Shirou was able to tell there were bruises(why he hit Shinji), and did not follow her around like Rin did. Even if the training is tough, she had clear signs that a rather dense person like Shirou spotted.

And Rin noted during that final hug that she had *hoped* that Sakura was happy, but throughout HF, when she talks to Shirou, she notes things that Shirou notices were red flags all over. Rin is just not good with empathizing with people.

After all of these years I kind of want to try it again and give it the benefit of the doubt. I think the biggest problem for me is that there are so many other VN's out there that really show just how badly written it is in comparison.

>>8582934
>Even if the training is tough, she had clear signs that a rather dense person like Shirou spotted.
As much as people want to joke about it, Shirou isn't dense, and in fact shows alot of traits pointing to the opposite. But yeah.
>And Rin noted during that final hug that she had *hoped* that Sakura was happy
>Rin is just not good with empathizing with people.
I mostly think her perspective is a bit skewed from having been raised a magus. Her actual feelings seems to not be as skewed though, hence why she finds herself in conflicts with herself every now and then.

But hey, magi children basically has it hammered into them from birth that life sucks hard, and that they should dedicate their entire life to unlocking unlimited power, but cue point, life sucks hard, and the mage craft is a bitch.
And Rin was raised as an orphan by Kotomine of all people, while forced to continue said training.

It's likely true that whatever Rin said is just blatantly the case. She loves her sister and hoped that she was happy and that she could become happy. Of course that is likely relative to how magi view their life, Zouken was just nuts and his entire family had gone crazy, even when compared to other magi.

>>8578602
>Rin didn't even care about checking on her either.
Except she did. She checked up on her whenever she could and the reason Rin goes to the archery club is because Sakura is there.

>and it was obvious that Sakura wasn't mentally stable.
No, it was far from obvious.

>>8578609
>Rin herself noted that Sakura never once smiled after leaving the Tohsaka house
Except no, she didn't. And picture related.

>>8578602
>Rin didn't even care about checking on her either.
Except she did. She checked up on her whenever she could and the reason Rin goes to the archery club is because Sakura is there.

>and it was obvious that Sakura wasn't mentally stable.
No, it was far from obvious.

>>8578609
>Rin herself noted that Sakura never once smiled after leaving the Tohsaka house
Except no, she didn't. And picture related.

>>8583025
Maybe it's a part of her upbringing as a magus, but she hung out with friends and did many things just like a normal teenager, so I can't really call her someone who was raised in a laboratory all their life or something.

She shopped with friends, joined student functions, the whole shebang, and enjoyed herself like normal. This route was showcasing their estrangement, however, while Sakura was trying to reach out of their mutual estrangement, Rin felt awkward and would pull back, because she felt she couldn't shrink that gap.

See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMRECYIp0iY

Even Shirou had to call her on it a few times. This was the one of the big reasons the situation between the two sisters worsened like it did.

>>8583050
>Except no, she didn't. And picture related.

Firstly, while that scene is true, this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3rAn321aSOU#t=260s

Shows that even though Sakura was trying to hide things, Rin saw through them as she observed, because she was only ever really energetic around Shirou. Even us readers only really see that side, with her being the peppy junior.

Rin however, saw the other side, which is likely why she asked those questions in the scene you posted, she's aware that Shinji is abusive. Common practice of victims of abuse is evading or denying it. But that seems to be more societal in the way Rin handled that. Even Ayako doesn't kick Shinji out of the club or take away his vice-captain title despite the fact he is wholly and openly abusive to new members. She pretty much just ignores it and complains to Rin or Shirou.

People tend to label Sakura as the awkward shy one, but HF showed that Rin can be just as awkward in expressing her feelings, sometimes even moreso than Sakura. Which is why she tiptoed around it like this when it came to Sakura.

Am I a fujoshi if I think Fate/Prototype looks one thousand times better than what F/SN became?

>>8585655
well, it's not really surprising something animated this year looks more refined than something drawn 8 years ago