/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>Mystic eyes can see death of everything connected to akasha

Hold up there, it has to actually HAVE a death to be killed.

>Mystic eyes see death of servants

Servants are already dead. Why do you think they cost so much prana to maintain?

>Servants can't handle flash sheath.

Servants move much faster than Nanaya Shiki's top speed.
Nanaya Kiri's top speed goes toe-to-toe with Kishima Kouma. Shiki tops Kiri by a small degree. Kouma is stated to be equal to a mid-rank Servant with no Noble Phantasm (or weapons at all).
WE HAVE NEVER SEEN A MID-RANK SERVANT (except Hassans and Avenger [bottom-rank]).

Shiki can have consensual sex with the familiar, and that's really the only important thing.

>>8007198
>Servants move much faster than Nanaya Shiki's top speed.

Then how did Shirou manage to beat Gilgamesh? He shouldn't have been able to touch him.

>>8007212
>Then how did Shirou manage to beat Gilgamesh?

Main character powers which Shiki also has. Which means that Shiki can beat Gilgamesh.

>>8007212

Read the FUCKING Visual Novel you GOD DAMNED plebian.

Trace enhances Shirou's strength and speed to imitate the skill and power of the bearer, the Heroic Spirits who held the sword.

Furthermore, Shirou simply DOES have the physical prowess to fight on the level of a Heroic Spirit! The fact that he becomes Archer is proof enough of that. He simply lacks the training at the time of the Holy Grail War.

Also Gilgamesh was panicking like a bitch and didn't even wear his armor, instead idiotically choosing to fight with weapons he didn't know how to use.

>>8007229

Let it also be known that Shirou was able to look into Rider's eyes and NOT be petrified instantaneously (although he suffered tremendous pressure to the point of immobility), meaning he must have at least B rank Servant-level Magical Energy (Archer's stat).

Ryougi [class: monster] killed 100 servants in F/E.
Ryougi is connected to the Root and she's Akasha itself against Archetype Earth.

Ryougi like HELL can kill servants.
Nanaya is much weaker.

>Hold up there, it has to actually HAVE a death to be killed.
Yeah, servants have death. Just like the floor and a bed had a death.

>Servants are already dead. Why do you think they cost so much prana to maintain?
Because they are near sorcery.

>Servants move much faster than Nanaya Shiki's top speed.

In the official Tsukihime Manga, Tohno was able to cut lightning. The slowest he could be is 96,000MPH, which is on the level of A class servant speed.

Also, Flash Sheath is near the level of tsubame gaeshi.
All cuts were delivered instantly against Arcueid.

>>8007238

>100 servants in F/E.

SE.RA.PH. War Servants = Data Constructs < Heaven's Feel War Servants = Spirit incarnations [application of Third Sorcery]

>>8007232
that was excalibur's sheath

>>8007243
>Because they are near sorcery.
While technically true. The actual reason as to why that is, is because they are dead. And the world sees them as dead.

That is, they are just as dead as somtething stabbed by Shiki.
The difference here is this near sorcery that says fuck you to the world when it actuallly tries to follow through on it being dead. All Servants already have the "dead" stamp on them, meaning all of them are already being destroyed by the world that recognizes them as dead.

>>8007240
They're servants, who cares.

It's like to say those infected motherfuckers from 28 days later aren't zombies or to proclaim a loli as an adult just because the author said she's 35 years old virgin.

You people aren't even trying. It's just sad, really.

Posting Berserker.

>>8007243
the manga isn't canon

Cross board trolling?

No, fuck off.

Kudo's on /a/, but not here.

>>8007243

>Yeah, servants have death. Just like the floor and a bed had a death.

What is the meaning of death to something which is already dead?

>Because they are near sorcery.

No, that's what summoning them is. That's why it takes the Holy Grail (which uses more prana than any magus could ever accumulate) to get them here in the first place.

To prevent them from going BACK to nothingness, you still have a massive drain on prana because THEY ARE ALREADY DEAD, KILLING THEM IS MEANINGLESS.
You have to destabilize their prana.

Arguing whether Shiki can kill prana or not is null, he'd have to force himself to see that, might kill his brain, we don't know.

>In the official Tsukihime Manga, Tohno was able to cut lightning.

And in the even-more-official canon of Tsukihime, Roa CANNOT USE MAGIC in his 18th incarnation, therefore that scene is a lie.

>Flash Sheath is near the level of tsubame gaeshi.

No it isn't. Any amount of time is infinitely greater than 0 time. Tsubame Gaeshi breaks reality and strikes you 3 times at once. They are not three slashes in a row.

Nine Lives Blade Works is faster than Flash Sheath, and it's still infinitely slower than Tsubame Gaeshi.

>All cuts were delivered instantly against Arcueid.

No, it's just that she couldn't do much when the first cut slashed her in fucking half.

>>8007256
>the manga isn't canon

Wrong.
It's canon and connecting pre-Tsukihime 2 events.
Lurk more before posting, newfag.

>>8007227
>>8007212
>>8007229
You must remember that:
1. Shirou has trained body and mind.
2. Shirou had body reinforced by magic.
3. Shirou also had UBW on, blades where flying at Gil from all sides. UBW movie was crap in depicting that aspect as well.
4. Shirou gets power-up and powers associated with sword wielded.
5. Shirou was contantly changing weapons.
6. Shirou had Avalon.
-----
7. Shirou clearly had nasu hax with gil being arrogant and not busting out armor, chains, or EA.

>t is the meaning of death to something which is already dead?


Returning to the Akasha records.


>Roa CANNOT USE MAGIC in his 18th incarnation, therefore that scene is a lie.

Yet it is the OFFICIAL manga. Just another interpretation of what could have happened. Take note that Shiki was bred to be a perfect human.

>>8007269

>Yet it is the OFFICIAL manga

MEANINGLESS.

It is an adaption.

Are we going to use every scene in the Fate/Stay Night anime as canon? It's official too.

>>8007262
citation needed on both claims

Lookie here. A Shikifag who needs to come to another board to spread his bullshit. Clap, clap.

>>8007287
it works every time too

>>8007287
More like a servant of Autismo rehashing Type-Moon threads for ignorant newfriends to spaz out in.

And taishit.

>>8007303
i love you too man

>>8007212
>Then how did Shirou manage to beat Gilgamesh? He shouldn't have been able to touch him.
First of all, Gilgamesh was trying to prove that GoB was superior, while it was mechanically inferior in the aspects in which they tested it.

He wanted to do GoB spam vs UBW spam. Not a "I am going to beat the shit out of you", cause that wouldn't prove his point.
Though it is still worth to mention that Shirou at that point, had still siphoned enough knowledge/skill/abillity out of Archer, that he was already Superhuman in his physical abillities.

Still though, its true that Shirou couldn't hold his own against a Servant even with his Archer siphoned abillities. However, he could put UBW against an enraged and overly prideful Gil's GoB. A Gil who thought it was beneath him to actually fight the kid.

>Shiki kills Wallachia
>Shiki kills Arc
>Shiki kills the concept of his own death
>Shiki beats Roa, who was lightning spamming

>2011
>Thinking Shiki can't beat servants

It's like you all choose to ignore facts!

>>8007801
And word of God says that only two, possibly three, humans can hold their own against the average servant, but only defensively.

Shiki's not one of them.

>>8007801

>Shiki kills Wallachia

Etherlite hax, and technically that was Shiki and Sion (vampire-enhanced) fighting Wallachia together.

>Shiki kills Arc

Mid-day ambush.

>Shiki kills the concept of his own death

Never happened.

>Shiki beats Roa, who was lightning spamming

Manga isn't canon.
SHIKI!Roa cannot use magic.

>>8007801
Q. In the other Type-Moon works, who else besides Arc can fight against Servants?
A. If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko.
If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel. Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class.
>Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants

>>8007833

Naturally when fighting Servants you have to preclude Noble Phantasms because it's just one GAE BOLGA and suddenly they have no heart.

>>8007833
>Ciel
>losing in a fight to the death

At worst case, in which the servant has an unlimited mana source attached to it, it'd be a draw, and that's only if sword spam and arc drive have no effect or no chance of landing.

>>8007801
They are both alien, and dead. If even possible, they would fry his brain harder than the fist of the north star.

>>8007818
Nasu's been known to be wrong or retcon things.
I wouldn't take what he says as canon.

>>8007825
>Etherlite hax, and technically that was Shiki and Sion (vampire-enhanced) fighting Wallachia together.
He can still see its concept; same goes for servant.

>Mid-day ambush.
Shows that he can cut faster than the speed of sound, almost instantaneously.

>Never happened.
Replay Tsukihime.

>Manga isn't canon.
Bullshit. It's licensed and green lighted by Nasu as a faithful adaption. Stop ignoring facts.

>>8007833
Nasu has been wrong before, he's wrong here as well. Overwhelming evidence of his skills and abilities proves Nasu wrong.

Can Shiki kill the death lines of the death lines and gain immortality?

>>8007825
>Etherlite hax, and technically that was Shiki and Sion (vampire-enhanced) fighting Wallachia together.
Etherlite hax only releases Shiki's natural latent abilities. It doesn't actually add anything more to what he has.
>Mid-day ambush.
Against a being that has 4 (2 in some circles) Servants unit worth of stats.

That's way more than a single Servant that owns an extremely average Noble Phantasm. And Shiki manages to slice her up in the blink of an eye into 17 pieces.

When Nasu talked about that "vs Servants" interview, you obviously have to take into account that he only used current Shiki the way he is from Tsukihime the same way he used only 30 percent Arcueid. This answer does not preclude Shiki becoming more adept at fighting and actually being able to match his skills with the natural talent that allowed him to obliterate a being that is worth 2 Servant unit stats at least, and 4 at the most, as time does go on.

Roa couldn't use magic? in Near Side?

>>8007861

This only applies to Immortal!Ciel, before the events of Tsukihime. In KT and MB canon, Roa's deader than dead and Ciel is mortal again, and is therefore no more than a sublimely strong Church agent with elite magical talent.

>>8007872

>He can still see its concept; same goes for servant.

He could NEVER see the death of the Night of Wallachia, only the death of Zepia Eltnam Oberon, a Dead Apostle's. Since he could see Nrvnqsr's and Roa's death, this is to be expected.

>Shows that he can cut faster than the speed of sound, almost instantaneously.

Not really. We never learn just how fast 17 dissection really is. It's possible Arc could have retaliated mid-cuts, but the first cut disabled her (if I was insane!Shiki at the time, I'd go for the head first).

>Replay Tsukihime.

Name the scene.

>Bullshit. It's licensed and green lighted by Nasu as a faithful adaption. Stop ignoring facts.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BroadStrokes
Every single moment isn't canon and every single element isn't inherently faithful.

>>8007861
Actually, if we look at it in a strategic point of view, Ciel could actually win against a Servant in a defensive battle. Servants use a heck of a lot of prana to maintain themselves. Ciel's a prana machine, she's immortal and she's very skilled in combat. She could basically force the Servant to use its prana up and make him disappear on his own, especially if his master has shit mana reserves.

>>8007872
>Shows that he can cut faster than the speed of sound, almost instantaneously.

No, it shows that Arc was spacing out, and while she saw the blade coming, she did nothing because the blade alone was not special in any way and would not have even injured her had Tohno not used his eyes.

Also, after the first slice, Arc was more caught dumbfounded because she *was* injured, which should've been rather impossible otherwise. She was still in that state for a while after Shiki cut her to pieces, puked on her, regained consciousness, and left.

>>8007890

>Etherlite hax only releases Shiki's natural latent abilities. It doesn't actually add anything more to what he has.

Shiki is not mentally or physically capable of fighting at his body's maximum potential without Sion's help.
It can't really count as a measure of his abilities.

>Against a being that has 4 (2 in some circles) Servants unit worth of stats.

She admits his killing was a perfect ambush, he was already attacking when she opened the door. She had no reason to have her guard up (a normal human without so much as a lick of magic was knocking) and it was the middle of the day, when she's at her weakest.

>This answer does not preclude Shiki becoming more adept at fighting

This is why we're talking about Shiki and not Satsujinki.

>Roa couldn't use magic? in Near Side?

SHIKI's body lacks magical potential, he's a demon-blood, not a magus.

>>8007898
>>8007907
The 17 slashes happened in the blink of an eye.

inb4 embellishment by Nasu

If it was embellishment, you guys better never believe what he writes on his VNs anymore. Actually, even his answers don't hold any merit as well. So everybody can beat everybody as a result.

>>8007872
>My words are more valid than the author's words

Yeah, no.

>>8007898
>Not really. We never learn just how fast 17 dissection really is. It's possible Arc could have retaliated mid-cuts, but the first cut disabled her (if I was insane!Shiki at the time, I'd go for the head first).

It's stated to be instant. Flash Sheath is near Zelretch technique.

>Name the scene.
I'll name two. KT he kills his concept of death Koma. Second, He severs his connection to Akiha, losing all life energy. The stab for this went directly into his point of death. Later Akiha receives a letter that shows Shiki is somehow alive.

>Tvtrops.org
>Arguing over whether either Shiki (mainly Shiki) can kill Servants, or other beings for that matter (Word Of God be damned). The Death Of The Author is somewhat warranted since Word Of God is mostly inconsistent and made up on the spot.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Nasuverse

Nasu doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. Unless he retcons the character in the Tsukihime remake, Shiki can in fact kill servants.

>>8007917

Define: blink of an eye

It's not even counted in Tsukihime, Shiki's three-quarters to crazy when he does it.

It's made that fast in Melty Blood, where he has Etherlite hax going on.

>>8007909
>Shiki is not mentally or physically capable of fighting at his body's maximum potential without Sion's help.

Lies. Shiki stands toe-to-toe with Sacchin, a revived Dead Apostle, something that no human should be able to do without serious backup. The only reason he doesn't beat her is because he remembers killing the real Sacchin and loses his stomach for it, and proceeds to get facestomped. Sion remarks that even without etherlite, he's an agile engine of death once he puts his mind to it. The trouble is getting him in the mood.

>>8007909
>Shiki is not mentally or physically capable of fighting at his body's maximum potential without Sion's help.
>It can't really count as a measure of his abilities.
The only thing that's truly limiting Shiki is his mental outlook, that he's normal. When he removes that, his body, that is athletically fit without even massive training, is able to do feats that no non-Nanaya human in recorded history has been able to do without any sort magic reinforcement. Physically, he's got the goods. Only his mind is stopping him. That's where the Etherlite comes in.

>She admits his killing was a perfect ambush, he was already attacking when she opened the door. She had no reason to have her guard up (a normal human without so much as a lick of magic was knocking) and it was the middle of the day, when she's at her weakest.
Yeah, perfect ambush, but for a being like Arcueid, 2 units at worst, 4 units at best during 30 percent, one shot should not be enough to completely debilitate her to make her not counterattack quickly.

Or are you saying Servants quickly get fucked by one-shots if it reaches them?

>>8007917
>The 17 slashes happened in the blink of an eye.
By Shiki's PoV while his mind and sanity were barely there.

It's hardly an objective measure of anything.
There are times where the story sort of shifts from first person view to a more objective third person view, such as describing how in comparison to his movements, Arc sees everything in slow motion. The time when shiki kills arc isn't one of them.

>>8007927

>It's stated to be instant. Flash Sheath is near Zelretch technique.

Where the FUCK did this information come from?
[citation fucking needed]

>I'll name two. KT he kills his concept of death Koma.

At no point does he do this. Len releases him from the dream, he had already healed in the real world. Play fucking Kagetsu Tohya again.

>Second, He severs his connection to Akiha, losing all life energy. The stab for this went directly into his point of death.

Re-read the scene. He cut the line of his heart, NOT the point of death. In Akiha's route his eyes never advance enough to see points.

>Later Akiha receives a letter that shows Shiki is somehow alive.

Never explained.
I for one think that because SHIKI was only killed by line cutting and not dot stabbing, Roa took over Shiki's body. He wouldn't need a heart, being a vampire, after all.

That's my fanon idea, but it's unexplained none the less.

How in the world would that be proof of him "killing the concept of his own death" anyway? There's even LESS evidence of that than Roa-hijack.

>>8007898
>This only applies to Immortal!Ciel, before the events of Tsukihime

In that interview Nasu takes into account the characters as they first appeared in Tsukihime (i.e 30% Arc for example is Arc just before Shiki kills her).

>>8007907
No, you're wrong. Arc plainly stated that she was killed by the first strike (which severed her head), after that she couldn't really do anything even if she wanted to.

>>8007898
>He could NEVER see the death of the Night of Wallachia,
Then how did he destroy the concept of it?

>Not really. blah blah blah blah
It was said to be in a blink of an eye, under a second. If that's not as fast or faster than sound, I don't know what education you had.

>Name the scene.
Akiha. If you can't infer from that, you have no business participating in this discussion.

>Tvtropes
Opinion instantly disregarded.
The manga and MB are canon as said so by Nasu, deal with it.

>>8007922
>My words hold more weight than a retarded author that contradicts himself multiple times in one story and over the course of several interviews who is prone to retcons.
Fixed.

>>8007940
"In an instant" being that he cuts her into 17 pieces in almost one movement, so that she is completely dissected before the first part of her body even hits the ground. Wish I had the Arcueid dissection chart on hand. It's quite fascinating.

>>8007940
Shiki was in heat for the kill, he wasn't high as fuck. That's like saying hunters who hunt are insane, and hence, their comprehension are useless in judgment, when the opposite is true. Hunters on the prowl have the best fine-tuned senses, since they have to take wind, distance, timing, etc when planning a long distance shot.

>>8007929
Again, Etherlite hax ONLY lets him use his techniques at will. His body is already physically ready to let him do all the Nanaya techniques. That is his genetic gift. That is why his body never truly degenerates. That's why years after he stopped his actual training, he's still a monster.

Besides, it was said in MB that Etherlite only releases his limiter. His body still has the goods whether the limiter was there or not. Etherlite doesn't add anything to Shiki's actual physical prowess.

>>8007954

>Then how did he destroy the concept of it?

He never did. Arcueid ended the Night of Wallachia by summoning the Crimson Moon with Marble Phantasm.
Shiki and Sion then took out Zepia Eltnam Oberon.

>It was said to be in a blink of an eye, under a second. If that's not as fast or faster than sound, I don't know what education you had.

At any rate, 17 dissection has no effect on how he can kill Servants. It's not like he'd get a perfect ambush situation on any of them, since they can, you know, detect souls.

>Akiha. If you can't infer from that, you have no business participating in this discussion.

Not evidence of nonsense "killing his own death".
His eyes never even advanced far enough to see points, how the FUCK would he see a concept?

>The manga and MB are canon as said so by Nasu, deal with it.

MB is, Manga is not frame-for-frame canon. Nasu approved =/= Nasu written.
Nasu wrote Melty Blood himself. (I don't know about Re-Act and beyond.)

>>8007955
>In an instant

Being that all the slashes landed at the same time, or a negligible time difference between each other.

Tsubame Gaeshi ≥ Flash Sheath.

>>8007976
Nasu never said that manga is canon.

>>8007981
Slicing a person into seventeen distinct pieces, before gravity even has a chance to pull one part to the floor, is a feat in and of itself, regardless of the ease with which you make each cut.

Shiki is a Ginsu nightmare.

>>8007948
>Arc plainly stated that she was killed by the first strike
You do know that this means Shiki on non-trained for years serious mode has enough speed to one-shot corporeal Servants like Saber and Gilgamesh, since Arcueid has 2 to 4 units of Servant stats on her as a 30 percent version of herself, right?

Probably the only reason why Shiki can't fight a Servant yet is because he doesn't understand them as of now (and this could be resolved by Nasu making his brain tougher or understand concepts with some shitty hax). Either that, or his eyes grow strong enough to be able to handle concepts.

>>8007872
>Nasu's been known to be wrong or retcon things.
>Nasu has been wrong before, he's wrong here as well.
Name one thing he was wrong about or one thing which he retconed.

>>8007976
>implying Arcueid can't detect lifeforms
The danger with Shiki is that he does not give off anything abnormal until you're actually fighting him. Again, he's just a kid with a freaking fruit knife.

>>8008000

Arcueid was not on-guard. She was not even expecting an attack. Shiki was attacking before she could even see him.

It was a PERFECT AMBUSH. It does not apply to every situation.

>>8007976
>It's not like he'd get a perfect ambush situation on any of them, since they can, you know, detect souls.
The fact that he can move faster than a being with the combined power of 4~ servants is enough to let him easily go toe to toe with servants in a fight.

Shiki has shown time and time again that his eyes progress rapidly. Killing servants that are still tied down to Araya and can be defeated or 'killed' is an easy feat.

>>8008010
>The danger with Shiki is that he does not give off anything abnormal until you look into THOSE EYES.

/a/ had the same thread with this idiotic troll.
http://archive.easymodo.net/a/thread/56057250

>>8008008

Yeah I have no idea how this got famous. The only thing I've heard retconned is when Fate/Stay Night (and by extention, Fate/Zero) takes place. 2004 to 2003 to 2004 to 2000.

>>8008012
>Servants can be ambushed
Is the point you're headed to. Arcueid, a being with far more statistical advantage than Servants have, is beaten by a kid with a fruit knife in one swing. That means that Shiki could basically kill both Saber and Gilgamesh that quickly before they can react, because Arcueid would be able to react way faster than either of them should.

>>8008020
It's not a troll if he hasn't been disproven yet.

>>8008008
>Retcon
Timeline of Tsukihime/Fate.

>Wrong
Shiki not being able to kill servants, despite being faster than one with a OHKO move that has defeated concepts far greater than them.

>>8008010
>>8008018

HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID.

>>8008012
Do you even read what you post?
You just admitted Shiki can go around one shotting everyone before they can even REACT to his presence because he's at least 2-3x faster than even a servant (Lancer) with A+ Speed.

>>8008018
>The fact that he can move faster than a being with the combined power of 4~ servants is enough to let him easily go toe to toe with servants in a fight.
I'm one of the guys defending that Shiki is superhuman, but let's be serious here, Shiki hasn't trained in a long fucking time. There is no way he can fight with a Servant in a one-on-one fight toe-to-toe in his current form.

Maybe Satsujinki can, but while Shiki has the talent, he still doesn't have the full access of it along with his latent skillsets.

>>8008026
>>8008031

HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID. HE NEVER MOVED FASTER THAN ARCUEID.

>>8008035
>>8008030
>he never moved faster than arcueid
>killed arcueid before she can even react
Dude, you're being a stupid person.

>>8008035
>>8008030

>>8008020
This arguement is older than /jp/, it's nothing new, and it's not a troll.

The only thing anyone has to say he can't kill servants is some quote from Nasu, who probably doesn't even know who Shiki is. Too buisy swiming in a pool on his private jet with all that Saber fig money.

>>8008025
Except he never retconed the timeline. It stayed the same from the very beginning.

>>8008037
>>8008038

Arcueid didn't react because she didn't HAVE to react.

It was a non-magical knife, it was less dangerous to her than a prayer.

A non-magical non-vampire was swinging a non-holy non-enchanted sharpened metal at her. He might as well have been swinging air.

>>8008031
Read
>>8007243
>
In the official Tsukihime Manga, Tohno was able to cut lightning. The slowest he could be is 96,000MPH, which is on the level of A class servant speed.

As lighning moves at around 96,000MPH as it travels throught he atmosphere. This is about a third the speed of light.

>>8008042
>can't kill servants
From the interview, the only thing that Nasu said is that from a one-on-one duel, Shiki cannot match a Servant in battle. It doesn't actually mean he can't kill one or use situational fuckery to defeat one.

This is Nasuverse. Situations > Powerlevels all the time.

>>8008054
The Tsukihime manga is not canon.

>>8008054

>In the official Tsukihime Manga,

MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS MEANINGLESS

ROA CANNOT USE LIGHTNING IN SHIKI'S BODY, THE SITUATION IS NON-CANON

>>8008049
Except for the fact that Arcueid assumed his knife was a powerful conceptual weapon the next time they met, and was completely dumbfounded by the fact that it was just an ordinary, if not supremely well-made, knife.

Basically, Shiki most likely can kill servants.

I'm not sure where all the hate
>HURR DURR SHIKIFAGS MAD CANT KILL SERVANTS
comes from. All of the logic and reasoning is right there in Nasu's works, you'd have to ignore all of them to think otherwise.

>>8008068

>Except for the fact that Arcueid assumed his knife was a powerful conceptual weapon the next time they met, and was completely dumbfounded by the fact that it was just an ordinary, if not supremely well-made, knife.

This being AFTER it dealt gargantuan unhealing wounds to her.

Tohno is so powerful, he doesn't even need to be in the series. Just being in the same universe is enough for him to create a storm.

Hope they have him killing a servant in Carnival Phantasm.

>>8008037
>>killed arcueid before she can even react

wrong. She saw it coming, she just didn't do anything, because under normal circumstances, it wouldn't have hurt her in any way and she didn't feel it was a threat.

>>8008068
White Len, you aren't seriously trying to argue that Shiki can kill Servants, right?

>>8008076
>Complete fanwank

>>8008049
Gilgamesh and Saber also don't have to react to a non-magical fruit knife held by a non-magically reinforced high schooler.

You see where I'm getting at?

Besides, IN AN INSTANT, BLINK OF AN EYE, before the parts were even pulled down by gravity, Arcueid was sliced apart into 17 pieces.

Even then, you're just saying that Arcueid doesn't need to dodge said knife. What if she intended to dodge the knife because even that would damage her and she would still end up using her regen to heal up? Dodging would be the more efficient way out of it than lol you cut me a bit, must use regen to heal myself quickly. Because they still do use energy to heal themselves from normal attacks.

>>8008068
Yes, but during that apartment scene she thought it was an ordinary knife so there was no need for her to dodge it. When she healed she thought it was some special knife.

>>8008078
Typical dumb faggot arguing against Shiki, and doesn't even know White Len is an open tripcode.

Didn't expect anything less from people who refuse all this evidence presented.

>>8008083
>What if [fanwank]
>uses that strawman to compose an argument

>>8008078
>Thinking White Len is one person

Average intelligence of those saying Shiki can't kill servants.
I think this about wraps it up.

>>8008083
She doesn't need to dodge it because it wouldn't hurt her. At all.

>>8008083
In Arc's case energy is not a problem as she has the unlimited back up of the planet.

>>8008083

>Gilgamesh and Saber also don't have to react to a non-magical fruit knife held by a non-magically reinforced high schooler.

You are arguing overconfidence on the Servant's part.

This would not apply to Saber, who's A rank Instinct would almost certainly tell her Shiki's dagger is aiming for "something" lethal on her body.

For Gilgamesh, he'd either have to fall to his own failings of arrogance, which doesn't really count (exactly the same in the case of Shirou, we don't say "Shirou can kill Servants" because he can't fucking beat any of them)

>>8008078
Dude, Shiki CAN kill Servants, specifically Gilgamesh and Saber. Because they cannot into spirit form.
And Arcueid is stats-wise better than either of them. Meaning Shiki is fast enough to nullify a dodge reaction from a being superior to Servants.

If Arcueid ignored Shiki's knife, that means Saber and Gil will basically think of the knife as a non-threat as well, making Shiki's job easier.

>>8008068

That was after the fact.

She noticed that not only was she cut to pieces, but regenerating by normal means was impossible.

The obvious conclusion to her was that the knife was somehow special and she wasn't able to notice, hence her surprise when she gets a chance to closely inspect it and sees that clearly isn't the case.

>>8008083

>What if she intended to dodge the knife because even that would damage her and she would still end up using her regen to heal up? Dodging would be the more efficient way out of it than lol you cut me a bit, must use regen to heal myself quickly.

More like "I don't need to dodge because there's no reason that tiny rod of steel won't BREAK ON MY SKIN".

Saber only survived Tsubame Gaeshi because the sword bent after excalibur was used.

Flash Sheath is many more hits and on near the same level. She would not escape.

>>8008072
>>8008087
It doesn't say that anywhere and is completely opposed to everything that she would do. The only real answer to why Arcueid didn't slap Shiki's shit is that she was completely taken off guard and he moved faster than she could unconsciously react given her predicament. She didn't feel anything from his presence and figured he was a completely ordinary person at her door, until he slipped through a partially open door and cut her into little quivering chunks without giving any warning. After all, Shiki doesn't exude any real killing intent. Nobody thinks anything of Shiki whatsoever until they look into his eyes.

>>8008078
If he went up against one in the open, Shiki would get annihilated without any effort. If he actually got the drop on one, who knows. Shirou, for all of his utter lameness, survived numerous encounters with infinitely less skill than Shiki has.

Am I saying this thread is worthwhile? No, I'm not.

>>8008087
>>8008095
>>8008097
You're the ones who are blasting fanwank about Arcueid not needing to dodge. Did she ever say she didn't feel the need to dodge?

Besides, the regeneration ability of vampires doesn't mean they don't get hurt. They do get hurt. They just heal very quickly.

>>8008099
No, this unlimited backup doesn't show up until either a stronger enemy appears, or until Arcueid gets her hair back.

>>8008105
Go here >>8008114
with your >More like "I don't need to dodge because there's no reason that tiny rod of steel won't BREAK ON MY SKIN".

That's even more fanwank than actual language in the VN where IN AN INSTANT counts more since Nasu wrote that rather than "Arc don't need to dodge bro" from you.

>>8008107

1. Tsubame Gaeshi is only a perfect trap because it is truly simultaneous and with such a giant sword.
A knife would not create a perfect trapping cage.

2. It is not fucking on the level of Dimensional Refraction Phenomena, stop making shit up.

3. Saber never used Excalibur, Monohishiwhatever got bent when he tried to block Saber's sword instead of the parrying he was always doing. His sword isn't special, it's weak as shit.

>>8008114
>No, this unlimited backup doesn't show up until either a stronger enemy appears, or until Arcueid gets her hair back.
Fanwank.

Shiki is similar to the Asassin class. It is not always stats that win the battle (even though Shiki has proven to have A rank speed), but how you handle yourself.

Just look at Gil. Best stats, yet a worthless faggot.

>>8008100
It's funny, because Gil and Saber are the two servants that have the worst compatibilities against Shiki.
Way to destroy your own argument.

>>8008122
Common knowledge.
Even TM Wikia has it right.

Thanks for proving you know NOTHING about TM.

>>8008124
>even though Shiki has proven to have A rank speed
Except it was never proven.

>>8008122
No, that one isn't fanwank. Arcueid does not get counterforce backup until shown specific situations.

1. A stronger opponent appears.
2. She has her hair back, which allows her to become ArchType Earth.

Shiki is the greatest protag of all time with the greatest harem of all time from the greatest VN of all time. Who gives a fuck if he can beat shit from his autistic little brothers game?

>>8008112
>>8008114

Anyone who seriously thinks Shiki moved faster than full-power 30% Arcueid could react to is inane.

That's beyond "Shiki can kill Servants", that's "Shiki can kill anyone short of Crimson Moon and ORT".

Bull. Fucking. Shit.

>>8008119
>A knife would not create a perfect trapping cage.
A knife moving nearly as fast as multi-dimensional refraction does.

>It is not fucking on the level of Dimensional Refraction Phenomena, stop making shit up.
17 cuts in under a second. That's a slice every 5ms with a Shiki not at his peak potential.

>>8008112
Oh, and Shiki also stalks Arcueid for quite a while without Arcueid even noticing that Shiki is tailing her. Shiki has no presence. He is completely devoid of magical or demonic influence. That's the entire point of his lineage. His father flitted around on the ceilings of houses full of insanely powerful half-demons who were adept at feeling the presence of power.

And his father killed them all without being noticed. The only time he was noticed was when he walked nonchalantly into the room where the head demon hybrid was chilling out.

Then, he slipped under a coffee table, pulled the guy in before he could blink, and began ejecting torn body parts from underneath a coffee table at high speeds in every direction.

>>8008131
ORT has no concept of death. I believe Crimson Moon does however, as it has shown it does have fear. It's reality marble could probably be killed by Shiki too.

>>8008128
>>8008129
Except it is fanwank. And TM wiki is known for it's fanwanking.

>>8008131
>Anyone who seriously thinks Shiki moved faster than full-power 30% Arcueid could react to is inane.
The VN showed he did. He slashed Arcueid's head faster than she could react. Even if it was surprise attack, if Shiki was a normal human, his attack would have moved like slow-motion for someone with Arcueid's beyond-Servant level stats.


Or are you saying Servants can't react to sudden attacks? Because that's what you're saying.

Can't Shiki just sever the connection of the servant to the holy grail?
He did something similar in Tsukihime.

>>8008131
>VN proves so
>KT proves so
>Manga proves so
>Everything proves so

>THATS WRONG I DONT KNOW WHY BUT IT IS WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Yukari can kill servants.
Discuss.

>>8008145
>Except it is fanwank.
Except it isn't. You're going to have to prove otherwise if you so claim.

>>8008143
>Then, he slipped under a coffee table, pulled the guy in before he could blink, and began ejecting torn body parts from underneath a coffee table at high speeds in every direction.
You're making Kiri sound like a horror movie.

>>8008156
Since he is the one who first claimed about her hair and a stronger opponent, the burden of proof lies upon him.

>>8008144
ORT theoretically has a point of death. Shiki just can't make it appear like he did with Arcueid because that feat entails him going to Mercury, destroying the ground closest to ORT, before the link is cut and her point of death disappears.

This is implied in ORT's description that "if the battlefield is Earth, ORT has no weakness". If we think about it, Arcueid would lack weakness as well if she fought on the moon....

>>8008144

And now you can happily go "lol i trolled you epiklly" because I am officially maximum trolled.

>>8008162
TM Wikia.
Fuyuki.

Either site will do.

>>8008138
> He slashed Arcueid's head faster than she could react.
And yet, he couldn't keep up with fighting her in Ciel's route. According to him, Arcueid was moving so fast she was just a blur.

>>8008170
>TM Wikia
No.
>Fuyuki
It doesn't say anything of the sorts.

>>8008167
>now you can happily go "lol i trolled you epiklly" because I am officially maximum trolled.

I wish I could wring up this kind of troll, but it's not. So much has been presented and cited to prove that Shiki can in fact kill servants and even Types.

If I were a troll, I'd have stopped long ago. If you don't want to discuss just leave the thread.

>>8008169
>destroying the ground closest to ORT,
Planets rotate quickly, so even if Shiki manages to destroy a part of Mercury, another part would replace it just as quickly. It's not really a win-win situation.

>>8008157
But that's... exactly what Kiri did. And then, he climbed out from underneath the table, completely drenched in blood, and clumsily stabbed Makihisa Tohno, thus starting the great tragedy.

>>8008167
You can't play the troll card when the other side presents numerous pieces of evidence describing and supporting its point, most of which haven't been refuted in a 100+ post thread.

If anything, we've been trolled by you claiming Shiki can't kill servants.
4/10 for effort if true.

>>8008183
>No.
>Give source
>NOPE ITS WRONG IT HAS TO BE WRONG EVERYTHING ON THAT SITE IS WRONG

Anyways, it's on Fuyuki under the description of World Backup in special abilities/magic. If you can't find it, your loss.

So that doujin where Shiki nonchalantly kills Berserker can really happen?

>>8008174
Shiki wasn't the same "Nanaya" Shiki during that route. And he was still having crazy pains during that turn because of his slow turning into a vamp and some crazy fuck reincarnation messing his brain up.

Besides, understand this. Being faster than someone else does not mean you have faster reaction speed than someone else. If you've played even a bit of contact sports or even just basketball, this should make sense for you.

>>8008179
>So much has been presented
Except Arcueid not reacting doesn't mean she is slower than Shiki.

>>8008186

There is no evidence that he can move faster than Arcueid other than you saying "well she should have reacted".

You think because she didn't react, she couldn't react. This is not inherently true, and not something either of us can comment on, as we don't know what Arc was thinking at the time (this was still "sleeping-Arc" who didn't do much thinking, ever).

Let's leave it at that.

>>8008174
>Ciel's route
You mean the one where Shiki's body was getting warped and destroyed?

>>8008195

Absolutely not, Berserker would just squish him. It's not even an ambush, and it's madnessed-enhanced Herakles, for Zeus's sake.

Type-Moon, ten years later and the fans are still spergin' about the same shit.

>>8008195
He wont do it so easilly, but its possible. I mean, Berserker wont just stand there and take it.

>>8008196
Occam's Razor.
You're the one making a big deal out of this and claiming that Arc never felt the need to react to anything around her, instead abusing her regen abilities which would burn through her mana reserves/put her in a disadvantageous situation anyways.

The simplest explanation is that she couldn't react on time, let's leave it at that.

>>8008208
Except simplest explanation isn't always true. And you have no evidence that she couldn't react on time.

>>8008208

>instead abusing her regen abilities

Steel shouldn't even pierce her skin!

>which would burn through her mana reserves/put her in a disadvantageous situation anyways.

1. She has unlimited mana, backup or not. It's just that when it runs low (which doing so by regeneration of all things would take ages to do) she risks losing her bloodlust control.
2. If it was dangerous, she would dodge. It wasn't dangerous.

She got attacked by an ability out of myth itself.

>>8008196
>sleeping Arc
Dude, she was already hunting Roa down in an insignificant country in Japan like she always have.

She always thinked things through, because she was a machine of death. Meeting Shiki only gave her emotions, not intellectual capacity.

>>8008187
Too bad it still doesn't say it anywhere on Fuyuki.

>>8008217
>steel shouldn't pierce her skin
Are you fucking serious?

>1. She has unlimited mana, backup or not. It's just that when it runs low (which doing so by regeneration of all things would take ages to do) she risks losing her bloodlust control.
No, she doesn't have unlimited mana because she doesn't want to lose her bloodlust control.
>2. If it was dangerous, she would dodge. It wasn't dangerous.
You're implying that she just wouldn't dodge at all.

>>8008219
You have no evidence that she could, and we have evidence that she couldn't: the fact that she was butchered like a pig by a guy that then nutted his own underwear at the sight.

>>8008217
>Steel shouldn't even pierce her skin!
You're saying that if Arc was walking around in broad daylight in public and people were coming up to her and beating her with aluminum baseball bats, she would stand there and take it? Don't be absurd.

>She has unlimited mana
[Citation Needed]

>If it was dangerous, she would dodge. It wasn't dangerous.
Refer to above.

>>8008219
>Except simplest explanation isn't always true.
Makes more sense than the convoluted bullshit spewing out of your mouth all for the sake of rationalizing.

>And you have no evidence that she couldn't react on time.
Occam's Razor.

>>8008217
I'm pretty sure bullets can pierce vampire skin very easily. The only difference is that since they are not conceptual weapons, the regeneration is so fast, it's like they weren't hit by bullets at all. This was explained in Arcueid's route IIRC when Arcueid talked about how she was damaged by Shiki.

>>8008230
>No, she doesn't have unlimited mana because she doesn't want to lose her bloodlust control.
Except unlimited mana doesn't have anything to do with bloodlust control. And the reason she couldn't control her bloodlust was because Shiki cut her up. She has no trouble controlling it otherwise.

>>8008233
Don't forget his vomit-chan impersonation.

>>8008238

This is Dead Apostles, not True Ancestors.

>>8008230
>>8008237

>You're saying that if Arc was walking around in broad daylight in public and people were coming up to her and beating her with aluminum baseball bats, she would stand there and take it? Don't be absurd.

Considering a bat wouldn't even phase her, Arcueid before her personality took root might not even care.
She barely acknowledged the world beyond Roa.

>[Citation Needed]

Okay, more-prana-than-anyone-ever-needs, Holy Grail style.

>>8008244
Honestly, if you're going to splooge your pants, you might as well vomit, too, and get it over with.

>>8008241
No, this was explained properly in the VN.

Arcueid was using 70 percent of her power to keep her growing bloodlust during the centuries under control.

That's why Arcueid going into Tsukihime was the 30 percent version.

But Shiki killed her, further damaging her body in ways that could not be healed with her regeneration in the proper manner. This forced her to use a lot of her 30 percent + some of the energy she used to keep her bloodlust under control. Hence, we get super weak Arcueid that was out of commission for a while. Her need to suppress her bloodlust and regain her lost powers to resume the hunt is one of the main subplots in her route.

>>8008262
Yes, and? True Ancestors don't have anything like armored skin in their skillsets. Even Servant Arcueid doesn't have that.

>>8008237
Except your explanation doesn't make more sense given her power.

>Occam's Razor.
That only works when the only difference is how complex explanations are. Mine still makes more sense.

>>8008262
>This is Dead Apostles, not True Ancestors.
Then why would she use that to describe how Shiki damaged her if the same rules don't apply to her?

>>8008272
She remarks that Shiki had cut her up before she could do anything, and the only reason she was interested in him, and didn't just immediately track and slaughter him after beginning reconfiguring her body, was because she wondered what sort of person could randomly kill someone he had never met. She lets it pass because he does something else that was unthinkable to her: he apologizes.

Your explanations are finished. Accept your end.

>>8008272
>Except your explanation doesn't make more sense given her power.
But it does.

>That only works when the only difference is how complex explanations are.

>She can't dodge it in time

>She could dodge it, but chose not to because it presented no threat but it would pierce her anyways and force her to use her mana reserves to heal unnecessary and put an opponent in a more advantageous position to fight her but she doesn't care because she's Arc and she has no personality so she let herself get sliced

Yeah ok. The only person thinking it makes sense is you. Stay ignorant.

>>8008286
>Accept your end.
We all know he'll keep arguing for the sake of arguing because he can't possibly conceive his argument as 'wrong'.

>>8008295
No, he's doing it because he's a follower of Autismo.

I know. I just don't care. It's not like anything else on /jp/ is any better.

entire argument is moot because Shiki's head would explode looking at the death of a heroic spirit

>>8008286
>She remarks that Shiki had cut her up before she could do anything, and the only reason she was interested in him, and didn't just immediately track and slaughter him after beginning reconfiguring her body, was because she wondered what sort of person could randomly kill someone he had never met.

Are you sourcing the manga again? Because she never says this in her route.

>>8008308
Not really. Saber and Gilgamesh have actual human bodies in the 5th HGW so that advantage doesn't apply to them.

>>8008286
She also says she is faster than Shiki and that he couldn't cut her up again because the difference in speed was too great. And she knows how fast he is given how he cut her up.

>and the only reason she was interested in him
No, she said she was interested in him because of the way he killed her. She remarks that not even those magic she has yet to gain resistance to wouldn't be able to "kill" her that much which is why she gains interest in that knife.

>>8008287
Yes, it works when the ONLY difference is how complex explanations are. Mine are not only that.
And again, yours doesn't make more sense given her power.

>>8008313
>Mine are not only that.
Oh right, yours is both convoluted and downright pure speculation using 'fanwank' by projecting your own thoughts onto a character.

It's not even Occam's Razor, it's just you arguing for the sake of arguing.

You're boring me, got anything else to bring to the table other than
>SHE DIDNT CARE ENOUGH TO DODGE IT THAT INVALIDATES EVERYTHING YOU SAY
? If not, I'm going to bed.

>>8008313
And that actually means what? It just means she's ready. It means that she can be on guard. It means that her, a being that is superior to Servants in stats has to be on guard against him because if she leaves her guard open, she can't even react properly against him.

This was never a contest about Shiki being able to match Arcueid in an open battle. Because Shiki could never match her in an open battle at his current form. The same thing applies with Servants.

HOWEVER, it still doesn't change the fact that Shiki moved faster than Arcueid could react against him in a surprise attack.

>>8008324

Alright then, when Arcueid is off guard.

Prove she's faster than a Servant off guard? We don't know how much of Arcueid's varying power gets devoted to reaction time etc. when she's relaxed.

Furthermore, you can't really ambush Saber or any Servant with Eye of the Mind (Fake).

>>8008318
>Oh right, yours is both convoluted and downright pure speculation using 'fanwank' by projecting your own thoughts onto a character.
That's right, keep making bullshit up when you're backed up in a corner.
My argument is that she isn't slower both in speed and reaction time just because she didn't dodge it and that your argument isn't a fact.

>>8008324
That actually means that she is faster than Shiki is. Pure and simple.

>that Shiki moved faster than Arcueid could react
Except we don't know if he moved faster than she could react or if she simply didn't choose to react. However we have a line from Arcueid that says that she is faster than Shiki and that he couldn't cut her up again, and considering her power, my argument makes more sense.

Another "shiki can kill servants" thread?
I MISSED YOU SO MUCH OH GOD now let's bring back arc.

Who the fuck cares Shiki will never fight a servant anyway.

>>8008332

the only difference there is that a servant would notice the knife as a weapon, and respond accordingly because even physical, "low-tier" weapons such as a basic knife can harm them while they are in a material form.

>>8008332
>prove she's faster than a Servant off-guard
SHE HAS THE STATS OF TWO SERVANTS AT THE VERY BASE OF HER ABILITIES.

She is physically superior to any fucking Servant ever. Even those stronger than that, she would get a boost on.

You know Saber is fast right? Her single unit stat of A is the full stat of ONE servant. Now imagine Arcueid at her basest form having the equivalent of two on that stat. Now shut the fuck up.

>>8008380

Now you're taking wild extrapolations with the "five times stronger than a servant" statement Nasu said.

He did not say twice an A rank, or even what ranks "one servant" is equal to.

>>8008332
>you can't really ambush Saber or any Servant with Eye of the Mind (Fake).
This has already been proven false by Kuzuki. And Eye of the Mind (Fake) isn't all-encompassing. Having them doesn't actually tell Servants that the weapon being swung at them can actually kill them.

>>8008373
Who gives a shit? Arcueid couldn't even sense Shiki, and she's the perfect hunter. What makes you think inferior beings will actually be able to sense danger with what she can't sense?

>>8008395

>Kuzuki.

Kuzuki fucking caught an invisible Excalibur between his elbow and knee.

That is beyond Shiki at the best of his days.

>>8008388

You say that as if it matters.

She has strength equal to 5 servants, and there are 7 in the entire grail war.

She can almost take on every servant at once with her base stats, and that doesn't even factor in the boost she'd get if she actually took them all on at once, which would make it a fair fight. 1 v 7. Think about that for a minute.

>>8008395
> Arcueid couldn't even sense Shiki, and she's the perfect hunter.
Speculation. She could have sensed Shiki and just pass him of as a regular human. Or a human with no interest in her. Or hell, even a human who isn't a threat to her.

>>8008388
It's still two fucking Servants' worth of unit stats at its worst. Double that at her best.

>>8008414

False. She can sense shiki.

How else did she find his house and his room on the night he stood her up when she came to kill him for doing so?

>>8008407
>the argument was you can't ambush a servant like saber
>show she can be ambushed
>use a shitty comparison he can never really prove
Go fuck yourself.

>>8008409
No, actually, teamwork is one of the best ways to defeat Arcueid. The same way it's the best way to defeat the higher-level Servants in every HGW. Double/Triple-teaming stronger opponents give you a chance to win. Actually, this is something Nasu shows throughout. Because situations > powerlevels all the time.

>>8008388
Irrelevant once you consider that she can take on any servant and with her base stats, is equivalent to several of the 5th war as well.

>>8008364
>That's right, keep making bullshit up when you're backed up in a corner.
I'm not making up any bullshit, I'm pointing out the intensely convoluted rationalization that you have going on over there and an attempt to tie it into something else.
>Ad hominem
>Defensive
>Insane ramblings for rationalization
Strike 3.
I'm going to bed, you had your chance.

>>8008143
>Then, he slipped under a coffee table, pulled the guy in before he could blink, and began ejecting torn body parts from underneath a coffee table at high speeds in every direction.
Why is Kiri so badass?

>>8008438
Because he's Batman.

>>8008364
Are you deliberately being a stupid dumbfuck?
Arcueid is faster than Shiki in an open battle. That's obvious. It doesn't mean that she will be faster than Shiki right when Shiki's right in front of her. Because that's not a fucking open battle.

>>8008424

>the argument was you can't ambush a servant like saber
>show she can be ambushed

He never fucking ambushed her.

He let her attack him, blocked, then counterattacked.

He FORCED her to lower her guard (nullifying her Instinct).

>>8008438
He's like a wolverine or something.

>>8008454
That was an ambush. It was a surprise attack. It had elements of just about everything that Shiki had on Arcueid. Again, you're telling me Saber is going to be afraid of a person who does not exude any form of presence and a fruit knife? You'd lower your guard faster on that situation than against someone like Kuzuki.

The problem with these is that there is so much hyperbole in Nasu works, but since some of them can only be taken literally, all of them are taken literally. This just leads to full retardness in arguments with silly extrapolations and things. That mixed with the fact that people take mirrormoon translations as if they are 100% accurate, anyways,

>>8008454
>He FORCED her to lower her guard (nullifying her Instinct).
Her guard was let down WAAAY before that.

A point that both of you are forgetting is that Saber sensed absolutely nothing abnormal about Kuzuki and considered him a human far before fighting him. The narration even says explicitly that she was going to end his life quickly to spare him the pain because she underestimated him that much.

With Tohno Shiki, who's literally just a kid with a knife, Saber would do the same thing. Who would suspect some anemic 15 year old with a fruit knife to pose a threat? Instinct/Precognition doesn't apply here.

>>8008464
>>8008474

It only worked because he FUCKING STOPPED EXCALIBUR.

Shiki has NO WAY to stop Excalibur at all. He's not fast enough to parry, he can't parry with his shit knife in the first place, and if you FUCKING say "he can kill Excalibur", I spit on you.

>>8008435
>I'm not making up any bullshit
Yes, you are. And it's not an ad hominem when I actually point out what idiotic things are you saying. Oh, and you calling it a "convoluted rationalization" doesn't make it so. To call any rationalization that isn't a simple rationalization "convoluted" just proves how much of an idiot you are.

>>8008448
>It doesn't mean that she will be faster than Shiki right when Shiki's right in front of her.
However, it doesn't mean that she will be slower either.

>>8008483
The first hit was blocked by Excalibur, which led to a series of aggressive punches that forced her on the defensive.

Tohno, who is obviously faster than Kuzuki, will pierce through her defenses. Even if he doesn't, he'll destroy Excalibur in one hit and go directly for Saber with his next stab.
Game.
Set.
Match.

Where are you guys getting this Arc = 5 Servants and "She can almost take on every servant at once with her base stats" bullshit? At least according to Nasu's Arc vs Gilgamesh comment, "Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level" and "she would get approximately the equivalent of 2 Servants single entity stats.".

>>8008507

Nope, nope, nope, nope, NOPE.

Now you're saying Shiki is faster than Saber herself, which is completely null in any regard I can comprehend.
You've even abandoned the ambush argument, now you're just saying he's fast enough to outmaneuver Saber.
I'm out of here.

Just think of all the times Shirou's 3 days of "combat experience" saved his ass. Shiki's got a few centuries of that bred into him, I think he'd do pretty well. Also the 5th post in this thread should have been /thread.

>>8008523
>Now you're saying Shiki is faster than Saber herself,
When she has her guard down, yes.

>You've even abandoned the ambush argument,
No?

>now you're just saying he's fast enough to outmaneuver Saber.
With her guard down in an 'ambush', yes.

>I'm out of here.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

>>8008584

Saber's guard is never down.

She literally could not perceive how Kuzuki was attacking her, that is all.

Shiki does not have facing-you-as-I-attack-you-from-behind skills, Saber would take every limb he has before he can move.

>>8008594
>Saber's guard is never down.
Which was why she completely considered him a normal human and didn't even expect him to move that fast with that much precision?
Please.

>Saber would take every limb he has before he can move.
Just like how she did to Kuzuki before he even attacked?
Like I said,

>Saber thinks Tohno is a normal human and doesn't even sense anything from him
>He moves in
>She draws Excalibur
>He dots it
>She has no defense
>He dots her
>Game over

Stop defending your Mary Sue so much, we all know she and Gil have horrible compatibility with Tohno.

>>8008608

>She draws Excalibur
>He dots it

Out of here.

Killing a noble phantasm?

You troll too hard at this point.

>>8008554
>Also the 5th post in this thread should have been /thread.

Shiki isn't even mentioned there, why would it?

>>8008613

Shiki can kill reality marbles.
What makes you think something can exist without death inscribed upon it? NPs are no exception.

>>8008608
Nice, ignoring the guy's point completely.

>>8008613
>Killing a noble phantasm?
>Thinking he can't

Nasu never specified how many it would take for his brain to explode. Since his eyes get stronger every day, stabbing NPs is absolutely no problem.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out and when you come back in either.

>>8008622
It's not even something not of Gaian concept like Ea either.
Avalon might as well be a supercharged bedframe for all we know.

>>8008614
Really this thread should have ended at >>8007833.

>>8008614
The OP is #1.

>>8008516
Arcueid at full 30 percent is equal to 4 Servants in stats. This is old news ever since the first comparisons were made.

The entire CCC T-Moon Complex X series is based on that set of words from Nasu.

>>8008655

OP is post #0.
Similar to how the pages are numbered, page 1 is the second page.

>>8008673
Except that the Gilgamesh comment supersedes that. There was even the "4 Servants" thing in the question he was asked, and he starts out by explaining about Arc's backup.

>>8008150
Nothing, proves so. The only thing the VN says is that he slashed her in the blink of an eye. This is so rarely, rarely, taken literally, one shouldn't assume that to be the case.
And "Manga Shiki" isn't VN Shiki, so that's moot. You might as well discuss Hero of Jusice Emiya, rather than how he actually appeared in F/SN.
And KT's world isn't even consistent within itself, and even ignoring that I don't see what you would clinge all of your argument on that relies on it as a foundation.

But apparently you prefer to blur out green text and throw out something akin to "EVERYTHING SAYS SO BECAUSE I SAY THEY DO!".

>>8010350
Did you really have to bump this you fucking retard?

Oh wow. Are you guys seriously arguing that Shiki, with no magical powers and through the science of incestous in-breeding, would be as physically potent as the super magically enchanted Kuzuki with refined strengthening spells from the age of gods?

Can shiki kill a dinosaur?

>>8010372
yes

>>8010408
Hell no.

A T-rex > Shiki

>>8010885

Shiki DID legitimately kill a vampire dragon when shit got serious with Nrvnqsr.

>>8010894
Who cares nerd.

I'm talking about a real deal JURASSIC PARK T-Rex, not some little Disney zombie lizard popping out of some dude's trench coat.

>>8010924
Zun!bar is so cute when he tries so hard to look cool by dissing Typ-Moon stuff.

>>8010372
Better question: can Kuzuki beat Arc? He did manage to beat Saber after all.

>>8010366
It had to be done.

>>8010366
but that hibiki thread is being bumped by the same guy. it's been what 2 months since that thread was made?

>>8010930
Why don't you have him filtered, like every other reasonable person here?

melty blood anyone

>>8020331

>>8020331

Sure why not. I need to get hype since the last time I played months ago, to warm up for MBAA in the end of the year. Beware I'm not USA though.