/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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More information for powerlevel arguments that'll never be in a game!

HOORAY

>>6507934

Oh god, it's Waifu Sakura. HNNNNNNGH

>never going to get translated

http://completematerial.pbworks.com/

>Q: Caster summoned Kojirou as an irregular Master, but was there a person who would have summoned Assassin as a regular Master (someone with the sign of the bruise)? Or was that Zouken?
>A: Caster found him before he could do the summoning....

Fuck yeah Caster!

>Q: There's three ranks for magic beasts, but what's the most famous of the Divine Beasts, the greatest of those?
>Dragons are special beings with the alignments of the three types, but are there any currently existing dragons that can interfere with the real world in the world of Fate?
>A: Moby Dick and Typhon? Divine beasts like those are more super weaponish than living beings I suppose.

Holy shit Moby Dick is a Divine Beast and STILL ROAMS THE SEAS.

>>6508007
typhon the father of all monsters is probably a pretty cool guy.

I mean he's riders dad.

>>6507975
Caster is a true heroine


One day she will get the route she deserves

>>6507962

>Alignment (labeled this as attribute earlier, but i'm going to call this as alignment now)
>Determines the orientation of the magic that the magus is skilled in

Oh good, now people can't complain about Gilgamesh being chaotic good because alignment is magical.

>>6508133

So because he doesn't use DARKNESS, he counts as CG?

That. Makes no sense.

>Emiya Shirou's origin is "sword" and his alignment as a magus is also "sword". Because he doesn't have one of the five great elements as an alignment, he's not good at magic using the five great elements. In exchange, he can manifest Reality Marble "Unlimited Blade Works."

AHA, I KNEW IT

>>6508142

Yeah no I was looking at the wrong Alignment, that was the magus alignment, like how Tohsaka is "the 5 elements" and Sakura was "emptiness". Not personality alignment.

>>6508145

SEE!?

SEE, EVERYONE WHO DOUBTED ME!? 'Sword' CAN be an origin! And the symbolism associated with 'sword' is what drives his existence! TAKE THAT!

>>6508145

SEE!?

SEE, EVERYONE WHO DOUBTED ME!? 'Sword' CAN be an origin! And the symbolism associated with 'sword' is what drives his existence! TAKE THAT!

>>6508025
>His human upper half reached as high as the stars. His hands reached east and west and had a hundred dragon heads on each. He was feared even by the mighty gods. His bottom half was gigantic viper coils that could reach the top of his head when stretched out and made a hissing noise. His whole body was covered in wings, and fire flashed from his eyes.
Yes.

>>6508028

Moe!

>>6508226
I'd want him on my kickball team.

Bump as I am curious of new informations.

>Q: What kind of role does the World give to Heroic Spirits that aren't Guardians (Counter Guardians) ? Also, what do magi call people with high divinity or are closer to the planet?

>A: Heroic Spirits that aren't Guardians are simply treated as traditions that lend power to the later people. Those that became closer to the planet don't mix well with people so they fall into the categories of Divine Spirits and Elementals.

Finally an answer.

>>6509933
where are you getting this stuff?

>>6509957

See >>6507962

>1930s
Third Grail War
Held on the eve of WWII. There were battles over the Lesser Grail with the Imperial Army and the Nazis as well, and the fighting unfolded in the Imperial Capital, but the Lesser Grail was destroyed and the ritual failed. The evocation site of the Grail was at Fuyuki Church. Angra Mainyu was taken in and the Greater Grail was contaminated.

FUCK SERVANTS WE HAVE TANKS!

Whoa, so it wasn't Shirou who made Rho Aias. It was Archer all along.

Well this fucks me in powerlevel discussions.

>>6509982
>Heroic Spirit summoning
>Heroic Spirits are being cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their copies, the Servants. Speaking of which, the information (souls) making up the Servants return to the main body at the same time as the death of the Servant, and the main body can know, as records, about the actions of the Servants as if reading a book.

Ah crap, this too. Heroic Spirits are also part of the world. Where did I even get the idea that Heroic Spirits were alien and not connected to the world.

>Anti-World Noble Phantasm
>The type that Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish belongs to. The actual output of Enuma Elish itself is about the same level or a little higher than Arturia's Excalibur, but it's effect which is unquestionably that of the legend of "ripping the world" puts this sword in a special category. Oh, and the rank is EX.

Gilgameshfags are not going to like this.

>>6510003
Kings treasury still boost it to retarded planet obliterating proportions, though nasu forgot about that I'm sure.

>>6510003
Nope.
The Conceptual effect is what any non-retard would use in a discussion of Gilgamesh, not the power part.

>>6509982

Shirou still CAN make Rho Aias.

Remember, Shirou has the capability to do anything Archer can. Archer can do some tricks that Shirou doesn't know HOW to do (yet), in this case, activating a conceptual weapon like Rho Aias is one of them. He'd just wind up with a not-very-helpful shield without the "absolute defense against projectiles" effect.

That reminds me, did that PSP Fatesona game get released yet?

>>6510017
Not in english.

>>6510016
If Avenger Shirou can make and use Rho Aias in HA, I'm sure normal Shirou is able to as well.

>>6510015
Ea has never ripped Gaia apart in the times it's been fired. Only RMs. Something tells me that it can only rip apart RMs.

>>6510023

That entirely depends on the Shirou.

I assumed we were talking about UBW Shirou.

>>6510015
And that is actually the important, additionaly it is higher ranked than Excalibur and there are already swords in tales better than excalibur.

>>6510012
Nope, even with that Ea is nowhere as nearly as powerful enough to destroy a planet Dragon Ball Z style. Only Zelretch's Jewel Sword with the help of the Second might be able to accomplish such a feat.

>>6510024
He's never tried.

I mean if our planets such bullfuck it can't even defend itself properly without the help of illegal aliens, I'm sure an anti world noble phantasm could fuck it up.

Otherwise the Name ANTI WORLD is just there to sound cool. Unless it means it could destroy pluto but not planets.

>>6510039
The wording specifically says that it is called anti-world because of the legend that surrounds it. Apart from that, it's just a bit over Excalibur in power.

GUYS GUYS GUYS

ARCIUED AND GILGAMESH WILL NEVER MEET, STOP IT BEFORE IT STARTS.

GIL HAS NO NEED TO KILL THE PLANET HE CAN ALREADY DO WHATEVER THE HELL HE WANTS.

EA NOT BEING ABLE TO BLOW UP THE PLANET IS TRIVIAL AS THAT WOULD KILL HIM AS WELL AND SUICIDE IS A COWARDS WAY OUT ONLY FIT FOR A MONGREL.

>>6510030

Not in Fate.

In Fate, the top sword is Ea, and the #2 slot is tied at Excalibur and Gram.
Excalibur is the most powerful Holy sword, and Gram is the most powerful Demonic sword.

>>6509982
Read it again:
>the part about Archer supporting Shirou was the time before Shirou pulled out Rho Aias, before Shirou came to his realization.
There were 2 Rho Aiases. First one against Ea and then one against sword spam. First was Archer, second was Shirou.

Confirmed now by Nasu, don't bother him about it.

Just read it... why no more stuff about Tsukihime?

I kinda was dying to know more about Altrouge.

>>6510063

>Fate/complete material

>>"Fate/"

>>6510063
he's saving that for his retirement.

A static visual novel of a short story he wrote in highschool(but recently refound the script for) about some retarded archeologist who finds altrouge's castle.

Because he will never write anything new ever again.

>>6510049
I always said that, but noooo, the assholes went YOU READ IT WRONG THERE WAS NO HILL TO PULL IT FROM IT WAS ARCHER LOL

Feels good to be right.

>>6510071

Hopefully he'll write Tsukihime 2 eventually.

By "eventually" I mean "I hope in the next 30 years".

If he dies and his stuff goes public domain I'm going to commission a Tsukihime 2.

>>6510043
>ARCIUED AND GILGAMESH WILL NEVER MEET
FUCK YES THEY WILL!
AND THEY WILL HAVE LOTS OF GOLDEN HAIRED AND RED-EYED BABBYS!

>>6510088
Sorry, but Arcueid has found her one true love and make half-breed mongrels with him (even though fittest Nanaya genetics aren't anything to scoff at).

Q: Who would be stronger if Servants fought the 27 Ancestors? Servant's also have superhuman battle ability, but the 27 Ancestors are also superhuman monsters.... I got the impression that ORT, Primate Murder, Altrouge Brunestud, and so on were obviously stronger than Servants.
A: All I can is they're both powerful.... They're both beings that live in mystery, so the only thing that can be said is that it all depends on the situation the moment it comes done to ""having the means of killing the other guy somehow". Among those, Earth rules won't even apply to ORT in the first place and Primate Murder has the super advantage against primates so they're in a league of their own, I suppose. Speaking of which, for one Primate Murder, seven Guardians would be the appropriate amount.

Good, this pretty much confirms that Altrouge is just Servant-level. So she isn't stronger than Servants after all.

>>6510100
Then how she beats arc?

>>6510100
You do know that some Servants are dangerously powerful, right? One of them can even fight a 60/40 battle against a 30 percent Arcueid but would only probably lose because of Women and Children.

>>6510095
If I was a woman, I'd definitely not let Shiki impregnate me with his shitty inbred genes. I don't like ugly babies.

>>6510095
>Implying Arc can have kids

Nope, spirits can't have children with humans because they are, well, spirits!

>>6510100
>so the only thing that can be said is that it all depends on the situation the moment it comes done to ""having the means of killing the other guy somehow".
Nowhere does that mean that they are Servant-level.

Shiki can kill Gilgamesh if all the situations went into his favor.

>>6510110
Shiki is obviously one of those that came out as one of the strongest. And besides, it's not like Arcueid's a Nanaya relative.

>>6510106
Affinity of course. Just like how Shirou or Emiya can beat Gilgamesh.

>>6510107
Gilgamesh is an exception. He has a chunkload of weapons with extremely high versatility. Any other Servant wouldn't stand a chance in a one-on-one battle against 30% Arc.

>>6510117
Shiki can't kill Servants, deal with it.

>>6510100
>Good, this pretty much confirms that Altrouge is just Servant-level. So she isn't stronger than Servants after all.
>didn't read the rest of the entry about Altrouge's pet still being fuckstrong

>>6510135
Actually, he can since Gilgamesh 5th and Saber have flesh and bone bodies.

>>6510137
Yeah but Primate Murder =/= Altrouge, they are different entities. That's like saying that Arc is strong because Merem and Gransurg are her loyal subjects.

>>6510110
Nasu doesn't know shit about biology. lol either you get stronger or you get an ugly face. How does that even work?

>>6510106
Altrouge beat Arcueid right after 1st Roa stole a huge chunk of her powers. And then Roa beat Altrouge after the sister catfight.

>>6510148
Gransburg Blackmore... I'd like to know more about his RM that can kill anything within 25 kilometers was it?

>>6510148
No, that goes to show how strong the DAA are. Obviously there are some weaker ones in their ranks, but it doesn't make all of them Servant-level.

>>6510151
Hmm, no, the fight between Altrouge and Roa happened before the fight between Arc and Alt.

>>6510159
That's not how I recall it...

>>6510125
You don't erase generations of incest just with one non-incestous partner. Shiki's got the retarded genes, all it takes is a little bad luck and his kid is a freak.

>>6510158
If you exclude Primate Murder and the other two Aristotles (Crimson Moon and ORT), and maybe the Dark Six which is a total mystery, then yes, all of them are Servant-level. It's not like you have some way to prove otherwise anyway.

>>6510159
>>6510160
Me as well. In most of the T-M boards I've ever went to, everyone talks like the foregone conclusions is:

Roa stole Arc power -> Alt beat weakened Arc -> Roa beat Alt with Arc power

>>6510158
If you exclude Primate Murder and the other two Aristotles (Crimson Moon and ORT), and maybe the Dark Six which is a total mystery, then yes, most of them are Servant-level (and some of them are even below Servant-level). It's not like you have some way to prove otherwise anyway.

>>6510175
>Zelretch
>Servant-level

Arc's dark deep past with Roa, Alt and Zel is the most boring thing ever, discuss.

>>6510196
you're a fag discuss

>>6510160
>>6510178
And what makes you think it went that way? And please don't tell me you saw it in the Type Moon wikia, because that's the order it is written in the TM wikia, and everyone knows the TM wikia is made of bullshit. Plus Period mentions that Altrouge fought Roa and the fight between Arc and Alt, bu they are in completely separate entries. Moreover, Arcueid was still fairly powerful at that time because her bloodlust wasn't all that advanced, meaing that Altrouge must have let pass a few centuries before fighting against her.

>>6510149

Fucking psychic genetics, how does it work? Nobody knows, it just does.

>>6510181
>>6510185

Considering that one of the most basic functions of Kaleidoscope allows even an utter novice of the second sorcery to be able to SPAM EXCALIBLASTS, I'm pretty sure Zelretch is above Servants.

>>6510204
Do a search on google and read the information on the various boards. And no lol, typemoon wikia.

>>6510204
Read the Jonnobi.

Roa was able to defeat Altrouge because of his excellent magus powers AND the power he stole from Arcueid.

And Roa stole Arcueid's power when she still had long hair from all the art T-M has shown. And who was the one who cut Arcueid's hair? Yes, Altrouge.

>>6510221
You mean Beast Lairs?, the only time that I heard Arai saying something about this was that all we know is that "Altrouge cut Arcueid's hair AFTER Roa came along which would have been when she was forced to restrain her powers even more (could have been more than present day or could have been less, who knows?)", that is all. For all we know Altrouge might have decided to foight against Arcueid while she was hunting for Roa's 17th incarnation (Elesia). And if you think about it, that's actually rather likely since Arcueid's bloodlust would have been much more advanced at that time, specially if you take into account that Altrouge never had the guts to fight against Arcueid while she had her full power.

>>6510232
Hmm, yeah and how does that contradict with everything I said? Roa stole Arc's powers when she sucked his blood, he didn't stole her power in any other way. After that Arcueid went to sleep and Altrouge was left in charge of hunting Roa, obviously the figh between Alt and Arc must have happened later.

>>6510232
Ah, you're right. From what I read in the Jonnoubi in Roa's entry, Altrouge only went to meet Roa after the Church designated him as something to seal after he gained Arcueid's power. Can't believe I missed that.

>>6510254
Jonnoubi shows that

>Roa stole Arc power -> Alt beat weakened Arc -> Roa beat Alt with Arc power

Is how it went. The last two, you can interchange, but it shows that Alt beat a weakened Arc and Roa still beat Alt using his own strength and Arc's power.

Meaning that Alt is powerful in her own right and Arc is a monster before Roa stole part of her powers.

>>6510254
Are we having the same argument? I'm confussed.

>>6510280
From what I read, Altrouge doesn't have Marble Phantasm, but is strong in her own way.

>>6510280
I already knew full well that Roa beat Altrouge after he stole Arcueid's power. I was just sayin that we don't know when Alt beat Arc, for all we know it could have been two days before Shiki cut killed Arc. Also if you are taking about Jonnobi, then the order of the events would obviously be that way, because the comment about the hair cutting incident is only in Arc's profile, and both Alt and Roa's profiles are written below. Plus, the battle between Arc and Alt isn't mentioned in Alt's profile.

>>6510045
Isn't Excalibur just a weak fuck abverration of Balmung which is actually also only an abverration of another sword, additionaly Gil has durandel which is made from so many special materials it is fucking indestructable.

>>6510575
IIt actually is no joke that Excalibur can cut through anything in Nasuverse.
Against Ea the blow's concept was overblown by the reality tearing force of Enuma Elish, but that doesn't mean that Excalibur can't cut anything.

>>6510926
Ok now you are bullshitting. Excalibur doesn't have the concept of "cut through anything", Excalibur isn't a conceptual weapon. Even Nasu said that some DAA have enough HP to withstand a direct blow from Excalibur. Seriously, Excalibur can no more cut through everything than it can promise victory.

>>6510035
>>6510040
Except that it can.
The literal power output (ie. the physical attack) can't, but if Gil uses it's full strength (which I doubt he can because he's only 2/3 divine) it's special property will literally rip a hole in the world and send it back to non-existence. This was confirmed in Fate/Zero, where Gil used a weaker version, still demonstrating that effect.

>>6511040
It only showed it can do it to a Reality Marble. The times he has used it in the real world, nothing happens.

>>6510095
Oh hey there Mikiya.

>>6511048
Because he doesn't have the strength to go all out (he wouldn't even if he could, since he has nothing to gain from it).

Also, I hate how this is a power level thread ONCE AGIAN. CAN'T WE JUST DISCUSS SHIROU BANGING RIDER OR SOMETHING?

>>6511054
I ENJOY MY POWERLEVELS.
NOW I'M GONNA DROWN YOU IN MY PRECIOUS TOOLS.

>>6511040
Are you retarded? The power output IS the full strength of Ea. It's not a sword that can slice things. The power output is the Ea blast in comparison to the Excaliblast.

It doesn't have the ability to actually rip Gaia apart, it's just called Anti-World because of the legend that it has. RMs, yeah. But those aren't as powerful as Gaia itself.

>>6511064
Shit, wrong pic.

>>6511049
someone's jelly

>>6511076
No, I meant this.

>>6511054
But he only ripped apart an RM. Not the world. He doesn't even cause much damage every time he uses it outside an RM.

>>6511040
No, you're talking bullshit. Ea's full power is just slightly bigger than Excalibur, it's only powerful enough to destroy a Reality Marble due to it's conceptual "World Ripping" ability. Since the world ripping is more like a "conceptual effect" than a "physical effect", Ea has no chance in hell to destroy a planet.

>>6511066
Actually it isn't. Go read through the supplementals agian.
Ea can only be fully used if the wielder is divine and if they have enough energy. Think about it: that's why there's a difference in its power level each time he uses it in the series.

F/Z: Destructive enough to destroy a RM and anything around it.
Fate: A concentrated beam that is single target, only blockable by Avalon.
HF: Not even strong enough to disintegrate the shadow.

>>6511121
It can rip the 'world', but it can't physically annihilate the planet, so no. At full power the most Ea will do is recreate the Truth and open a portal to the origin of the world within a limited area, but only retarded Eafags think it would be able to destroy the planet like in DBZ.

Also, in F/Z Gil was serious and he needed to destroy Rider's RM, in FSN Gil never had the intent to kill Saber, he was just playing around with her. Ea has never suggested that it could blow up planets.

>>6511159
What I was getting at is that Ea has untapped potential because some Anon said that Ea's physical power is static and not related to the wielder.

Also, yes, it CAN destroy the world by ripping a portal large enough to revert the time space around the planet, essentially killing it and everything on it. It works on the same principle as Chaos Theory and Entropy, but Gil cannot do that because he doesn't have the power or divinity to. Go reread Ea's characteristics if you don't believe me.

>>6511159
>it can't physically annihilate the planet

Yes it can, or at least do a number on it. The description of "Anti-World" claims that Ea is a weapon that is at its best when used to destroy planet-sized targets.

As for why it wasn't effective, no clue. Maybe Gilgamesh doesn't want to destroy the world, since he owns it and all. Maybe he needs to chant the entire Enuma Elis (Enuma elish la nabu samamu saplis ammatum suma la zakrat... etc. ) before Ea gets to world-destroying capacity.

>>6511196
It says there in the fucking damned complete materials.

The title Anti-World was only bestowed on Ea because of the legend that surrounds the weapon. BUT it only has the power output equal to a bit over Excalibur.

Fucking Eafags.

>>6511173
It's description says that is a sword that "cuts apart the world", but you need to understand that this is not literally, it isn't called an Anti-World because it can destroy the world in the same way as Excalibur can destroy a fortress, it is an Anti-World only due to it's "world ripping" conceptual ability. Also, nowhere it says that you need high divinity stats in order to fully use Ea, stop pulling shit out of nowhere.

>ITT eafags do not understand the difference between conceptual and physical effect

>>6510049
Oh GOD, FINALLY. Thank you Mushroom, I was so fucking sick of bringing this up every damn time some faggot forgot about Shirou surviving Ea for no explicit reason.

>>6511196
>The description of "Anti-World" claims that Ea is a weapon that is at its best when used to destroy planet-sized targets.

Oh God what the hell? Stop pulling shit out of your ass for God sake.

>>6511196
>The description of "Anti-World" claims that Ea is a weapon that is at its best when used to destroy planet-sized targets.

No you dumbass, you just made that up.

It can literally "Rip apart the world" in the conceptual sense that it creates a fucking cut in the time-space like it does in HA and in Zero against Iskander's army, but nowhere does it state that it can be used against a planet-sized target. We knew this before, Nasu just confirmed it. What the fuck are you talking about?

>>6511220
>>6511209
>>6511235
I think you are all retarded, you must be Arc-fags or something. Ea's ability is to create a warp space, sending anything in it back to a time before the earth was created and destroying everything in it pretty much. This is the conceptual property of it and is shown to be used by Gil many times in HA and F/Z.
We have never seen Gil use it to destroy any target larger than a reality marble, but extrapolation easily shows that it can if it had that capability by doing enough damage to a larger sized target.

tl;dr We don't know if it can destroy Gaia, but we don't know that it can't either. Fags attacking and defending this issue are both retarded.

>>6511261
>We don't know if it can destroy Gaia, but we don't know that it can't either.

The fucking book JUST FUCKING SAID that its power is pretty much similar to Excalibur. Excalibur sure as hell can't destroy the fucking planet.

It's never said outright that Kuzuki's punches can't destroy the planet either. Would you argue that he might be able to based on just that?

>>6511261
> but extrapolation easily shows that it can if it had that capability by doing enough damage to a larger sized target

No, Ea's max output is only slightly bigger than Excalibur's. The world ripping thing isn't going to destroy the world like in DBZ, but it can kill the world whitin a limited area (a city at most) and return it to a state previous to its creation, but not the entire world.

>>6511261
>Ea's ability is to create a warp space, sending anything in it back to a time before the earth was created and destroying everything in it pretty much

What the shitfuckinghell are you talking about now? This is batshit retardation. Where the hell did you get that?

It rips rips a hole into reality, we KNOW this, We've SEEN it. Everything after that is just retarded fanfiction you just made up. This is never mentioned ANYWHERE.

just when you think powerlevels threads finally died down, there goes Nasu finally deciding things about his setting on the spot again.
and /jp/ suddeny turns into Beast's Lair again

>>6511271
It's PHYSICAL power is above excalibur, it's intrinsic 'conceptual' power isn't and is leagues above Excalibur.
Basically, Excalibur is a sword that uses highly compressed energy to rend air. Ea has this ability, but also creates a rift in time and space as well, which is an ability that is NOT shown in F/SN, only F/Z and HA. Have you even read those two yet?

>>6511282
Except it isn't. It's explicitly said that the reality you are sent back is to a time where Gaia didn't exist, inflicting damage on a spatial level to the target in that dimension.

You sound mad, especially when not understanding the source material.

>>6511284
>It's PHYSICAL power is above excalibur, it's intrinsic 'conceptual' power isn't and is leagues above Excalibur.

And you get this distinction from... where? Because it sounds like you just pulled it right out of your ass. Where's the source for that?

We know it can cut a hole in reality. The world semed pretty much okay after he did that, twice. It wasn't even enough to crack the looping world in HA, let alone destroy the planet.

We were JUST TOLD that the fucking weapon's output isn't much higher than Excalibur. What basis do you have to believe that Gil could make a hole bigger than what we've seen thus far, let alone one big enough to destroy the world?

>>6511291
>It's explicitly said that the reality you are sent back is to a time where Gaia didn't exist

Where? Citation needed, asshat.

>>6511261
THE ONLY THING IT SENT BACK WAS A FUCKING RM

YOU MORON

>Q: Archer's greatest defense is "Rho Aias", but if he were the same person as Shirou, shouldn't his greatest protection be "Avalon"? In the Rin route, Archer knew that the holy sword's sheath was inside Shirou, so wouldn't the Heroic Spirit form of the Shirou that "knew" that the sheath was merged with him be Archer?
>A: Avalon’s power won't work if Saber's not connected to it. It's a different story during the Grail War, but all it does when Saber isn't around is make Shirou's magic attribute into "sword". Also, after the Grail War is taken apart, the line between him and her will be gone, so it's best to think that his image of "Avalon" also disappeared.

Well, THIS is interesting. I guess that goes a long way towards explaining how Shirou developped UBW in the first place, having the sheath merged just conditioned him that way.

>>6511291
That's true, but still nothing suggest that Ea can destroy the world like in Dragon Ball Z. Unless you want to go by the assumption that "everything is true unless proven otherwise".

>>6511261
>but extrapolation easily shows that it can if it had that capability by doing enough damage to a larger sized target.

...why? Extrapolation based on what? Why would its output be any higher, let alone that much?

>>6511302
F/Z.

>>6511300
>What basis do you have to believe that Gil could make a hole bigger than what we've seen thus far, let alone one big enough to destroy the world?
We were told that Ea is slightly stronger than Excalibur, except it has already demonstrated properties that are much stronger than a FULL EKSUCALIBA blast in a wide variety of material, INCLUDING FZ. I never said it could destroy the planet, I said that it might be able to and does send everything back to a conceptual hell, 'ie. when Gaia didn't exist'. I'm not going to look that up for you, but if you don't know where to find it, enjoy talking to a wall because you obviously don't know source material.

>>6511311
And if you take Avalon out of Shiro... his magic attribute would change?

>>6511311
That coincides well with Last Episode, which stated that Shirou even forgot how to trace Avalon and Excalibur. It still bothers me though, that in FS/N, it was stated that it has been with him so long that he could skip ALL STEPS OF TRACING and create a perfect copy, because it was a part of him. None of the routes that Archer could possibly come from had it removed, so there should be no reason he could no longer trace it.

>>6511318
That's because of the world-ripping effect. BUT it cannot destroy planets. It never even harmed Gaia in the times it was used outside an RM.

The power output (there is nothing said that says it has a difference between physical and conceptual, which is something you pulled out of your ass) is basically a bit higher than that of Excalibur's. And Excalibur could never have destroyed a planet.

>>6511318
>except it has already demonstrated properties that are much stronger than a FULL EKSUCALIBA blast in a wide variety of material, INCLUDING FZ

No, it demonstrated an effect completely different from that of Excalibur.

That's like saying that any weapon could do what Shiki does if you pumped enough energy into it. You're assuming that Ea can do something Excalibur can't just because it's randomly "stronger". Except we were JUST TOLD that Ea's output is NOT significantly stronger than Excalibur.

It's EFFECT is certainly more lethal than Excalibur, but you are assuming that just because it can do something that is stronger than Excalibur, that its power MUST be numerically higher than Excalibur. We were just told that's not the case. There is absolutely no reason to suppose Ea could make a hole any bigger than we've seen thus far to destroy a much bigger target. That would be a question of output, and as we've repeated a billion times, WE KNOW IT'S NOT THAT STRONG.

>>6511337
>(there is nothing said that says it has a difference between physical and conceptual, which is something you pulled out of your ass)
Right, because when used at full power, it dealt damage to an entire city and could damage nearly an entire continent as well as completely obliterate a reality marble where Excalibur could only devastate a ~50mx50m area at maximum power?

Please.

>>6511302
Another person here. It's in fuyuki,

>The highly compressed wind pressure strata results in the creation of an artificial space-time rift that is thought to be the basis of all legends of lands of the dead, the origin of the memory of all organisms.
>Something that is not found in the imagination or in the spoken memory of people, but in the genetically inherent and repressed knowledge of a place and time when organic existence had been impossible on this planet.

Of course, nowhere it says it can blow up the planet. It simply can't because Nasu just confirmed it.

>>6511302
I don't think you have ever played FS/N if you don't remember that part, asshat. :)

>>6511349
>Right, because when used at full power, it dealt damage to an entire city and could damage nearly an entire continent

Where the fuck did you even get that from?

>>6511359
HA and F/Z.
I think I'm noticing a trend here that the people I'm debating against have never played anything outside of F/SN.

Why is hyperbole and exaggeration taken as literal fact in Nasuverse?

>>6511349
> it dealt damage to an entire city and could damage nearly an entire continent as well as completely obliterate a reality marble where Excalibur could only devastate a ~50mx50m area at maximum power

And may I ask, where the fuck are you pulling this shit from? Have we ever seen Ea destroying a continent or something bigger? Ea and Excalibur have the same fucking range, so obviously Ea can't destroy a whole country or a continent.

>>6511367
I haven't reached the part of the battle between Iskander and Gilgamesh in F/Z, but I have read the relevant portion of that battle that arai translated and it doesn't back up any of your claims, it just proves that Ea is effective against Reality Marbles.

>>6511349
>he believes Gilgamesh' bullshit
>he probably thinks Anti-World still means he can destroy a planet
Did you probably not think that THAT small bit of power over Excalibur is what allows Gilgamesh to wreck Reality Marbles beyond their breaking points?

And could you not possibly think that even if Ea can cover a greater area, Excalibur has a much more concentrated blast in a smaller area with basically the same amount of energy?

>>6511367
>HA and F/Z.

Gil didn't even wreck the fucking BRIDGE in HA, let alone the city. He sure as hell did nothing of the sort in Zero.

>>6511386
>Excalibur has a much more concentrated blast in a smaller area with basically the same amount of energy?
No. Proven false in F/SN.

>>6511385

>I haven't reached the part of the battle between Iskander and Gilgamesh in F/Z,
Have you played H/A?

>>6511305
Read this before you spout bullshit about Ea's effect that you don't understand child.

IN FSN GIL WINS

IN TSUKIHIME ARC WINS

IN CHARACTER MATERIAL ORT WINS

IN WITCH STATIC NOVEL NO ONE WINS BECAUSE ITS A STATIC NOVEL.

IN DDD WHO THE FUCK KNOWS, BUT MY MONIES ON THE LITTLE SISTER SHE'S FUCKING SCARY.

>>6511406
>IN FSN GIL WINS
that's why he loses in all three routes with varying degrees of humilation inflicted on him
Fate: kicked to the face by the one he desires, defeated by her
UBW: lent to the shittiest master, beaten by a copycat who didn't even use his ability for more than three days
HF: lol j7k u didn't kil me I kil u

>>6511396
>Have you played H/A?

I haven't, but fortunately the relevant part where Gil used Ea was translated by arai as well, and nothing suggest that Ea can blow up the planet. Just that it can open a portal to the origin of all organisms (that is, "Hell"). To rip reality and open a portal to the origin of the world withing a limited area because Ea has the same range as Excalibur =/= being able to blow up the entire world.

>>6511434
He was talking power levels, about how Arc or Gil could singlehandedly dominate everyone in their novels at full power.

Reading comprehension fag

>>6511441
I'm not the same guy you're talking to then. I never said Gil could blow up the world, I said that before Nasu said he couldn't, there was no evidence that he couldn;t accomplish that feat.

Excalibur = A++ = 150 in certain circumstances, according to that interesting Rank-table.

Ea = EX = In the description a somewhat a wacky asspulled "4000" was revealed, along with something like "moar powar with support from other NP".

Nasu might've self-inserted a bit too much, but I'd say that 4000 is a bit more than "slightly bigger" than 150.

Disclaimer: The new databook could of course refer to the clashes of Excalibur and Enuma Elish, where Gilgamesh maybe held back a bit. Still, 4000 is about 25 times bigger than 150. It might help you if I dress it in a DBZ context. Imagine, that Freeza has a POWERLEVEL of one million. Freeza symbolizes Excalibur here. Now Super Sayan Goku would be the Ea, and his POWERLEVEL would be a whopping 25 million! Try that one on for size!

Also, 42 minutes in MS paint.

>>6511632
There's a reason why people try not to discuss power levels on /jp/ unless it's taken directly out of the games: Nasu makes up shit on the spot and retcons everything.

Neko Arc is the strongest according to Nasu.

whoa what the fuck i didn't even know they published volume 2. you know how fucking long i've had volume 1 and the rest of the fancy box they give you has been empty because they never made the other ones? it's been like two fucking years. what the fuck.

fate complete material 1: art (july 2008)
fate complete material 2: character (june 2010)
fate complete material 3: world (october 2010)

what the fuck took so long?

>>6511688
Nasu is far too busy swimming in his Fate monay, burrowing through them like a mole, throwing them into air and letting them descend upon him like a rain.

>>6511728
could you rephrase this in the form of an oceanic metaphor

>>6511762
I will try.

He dives around in his money like a porpoise. He burrows through them like gopher. And he tosses them up and let's them hit him in the head.

This is meme invented by a guy named Carl Barks in the early 1950's.

>The Sea of Estray, together with the Atlas Institute, is an organization called the original form of the Magic Association.
>Among the founders of the Magic Association, there had been many heretical magi who were exiled from the Sea of Estray and the Atlas Institute and had no place left to go.
>The base of the Sea of Estray is in Northern Europe. This base, with the nickname of the Moving Stone Coffin, is itself a moving mountain range. Normally it is wandering at sea as its name suggests, but sometimes it comes up on dry land.
>a moving mountain range

LOLWTFBBQ

Hold on... I just caught this. The Sea of Estray was originally mentioned as being in the Middle East, but Nasu just suddenly said it was in Northern Europe in Character Material.

It wasn't a retcon after all, the thing LITERALLY moved?

>>6511867
Nasuverse.

Shit doesn't have to make sense.

>>6511632
Enuma Elish = STR x 20 damage
Max STR = A+++ STR = 200 base
Max STR x 20 = 4000 damage (Max damage)

Going by the above, Enuma Elish (in FSN) is only actually 800 damage*
(B STR [40] * 20)

A-Rank normal attack is only up to a C-Rank Noble Phantasm, so Excalibur (A++ NP) is more than A++ normal attack (150)

150 < Excalibur < 800* (Enuma Elish)
*Ignoring the MAG added at random

In all this Ea Excalibur discussion I just want to say this:
Nasu said Ea has a range of what 1000 people, but shows how it and Excalibur blow up half a city in the grail war before F/SN.
So what after the aoe hit the first 1000 people everyone else that gets hit is magically unharmed?

>>6512114
>but shows how it and Excalibur blow up half a city in the grail war before F/SN.

No, it does not. Neither Excalibur nor Ea ever wrecked that big of an area. Excalibur's most destructive use is in HA, when Saber emulates Link's Spin Attack and swings the sword diagonally for once, which she usually never does for obvious reasons. It swoops through a couple blocks' worth of shadow Avengers, but nothing else.

If you are saying this because you saw the intro of the anime, STOP. Fucking STOP. The anime is not agood basis for anything. So just quit it.

How does a fucking mountain range move and no one notice it?

>>6512186
MAGIC

I assume a goddamn supertall mountain range smack in the middle of the Egyptian desert would be hard to miss too, but that's where Atlas is.

>>6512186
Because Nasu.

>2010s
>The taking apart of the Holy Grail War. Ten years after the Fifth War. Lord Emelloi the Second (real name, Waver Velvet. One of the Masters of the Fourth War) arrived in Fuyuki and together with the head of the Tohsaka line, set out to completely take apart the Great Grail. The Association was planning on bring back the Greater Grail, so the two sides were completely opposed. After the end of the great turmoil of the same magnitude as the Grail War, the Greater Grail was completely dismantled. The Grail Wars of Fuyuki came to a complete conclusion here.

Game when?

>>6512277
Right after Tsukihime 2

>>6512289
I can't wait for all those little sisters to romance.

>>6512277
>the head of the Tohsaka line

He's talking about post-HF Rin, right?

Mmm... older woman Rin...

I want to see luvia's relatives fighting nazis in 1938. make it happen nasu.

>>6512186
BRING THE MOUNTAIN TO THE SEA

>No mention of any other prominent magus famies outside the usual

STILL WAITING FOR MY RESURGENT LE FAY FAMILY WITH AN ARMY ON CLONES MORDREDS

MAKE IT HAPPEN NASU

I WANT THE CASTER AND ILYA ROUTES TOO

GIVE THEM TO ME

>>6512333

What the hell... is that Conquest?

Someone else actually remembers that game?

>>6512344
RTS unit anonymous is well versed it seems.

>>6512304
>He's talking about post-HF Rin, right?

Post-HF is the only route when this DOESN'T happen, since they blew up the Greater Grail and thus there's nothing to dismantle.

If you just mean adult Rin, then yeah. Although you never see "adult" Rin, that was just her with her hair down, the epilogue only takes place one year after.

>>6512333
MEMORIES.

I didn't know anyone else played that. I sucked at that game so much, but it was so much fun.

>>6508145
So Shirou's basically like Louise from Zero no Tsukaima then?

>>6512363
>Post-HF is the only route when this DOESN'T happen, since they blew up the Greater Grail and thus there's nothing to dismantle.

Right I forgot.

I have this image of Rin ending up a lot like Touko. Physically, at least.

What year does F/SN take place, exactly?

>>6512334
>Great magic families
>Family name or Representative/attribute/explanation
>Tohsaka/Conversion/nothing new
>Makiri/Absorption/nothing new
>Einzbern/Flow and transfer of power/nothing new
>Edelfelt/Conversion/Family from Finland. Like Tohsaka, prefer jewels magic, which uses the attribute of conversion
>Barthomeloi/Almighty/Old line even in the Magic Association. One of the families of the rulers, the Lords. Embodiments of perfectionism and aristrocracy
>Milyonecalion/Prosperity/One of the top magi in the magic world, known also by the name "He Who Has Been Given All Sealing Designations" (I think?). Details are unknown.
>Jewel Killer/Halting/One of the remarkable magi in history, affiliated with the Sea of Estray, the mysterious prototype of the Magic Association
>Hermes Silis Atlasia/Future/Magus from one of the divisions of the Magic Association, the Atlas Institute, the association for the magi and alchemists of Egypt

>>6512371
>What year does F/SN take place, exactly?

If the dimantling takes place in 2010, and it's ten years after the Grail War... do the math.

permanent sand storm obscures the giant mountain range

>>6512375

Right, I'm dumb today and can't read.

Thanks anyway.

28-year-old Rin... wonder if she ended up with Shirou or not.

Fate's mythology will never be quite as awesome as Ogre Battle's mythos.

>>6512382
Most likely not, since Realta Nua made sure Shirou is still a complete Saberfag.

>>6512382
Shirou should be dead too cuz he will become a superhero around this time.

>>6512382
She ended up the badass single woman who travels the world. No time for men in her adventures.

>The Sea of Estray was originally mentioned as being in the Middle East,
Where did you hear that? It was always mentioned to be in North Europe.

>>6512984
Alternate realities motherfucker, ever heard of Zeltretch?

>>6513075
Apparently it shouldn't even matter in the timeline that they made because of RN. Japan are Saberfags after all.

>>6513054
Rindiana Jones?

>>6513054
>No time for men in her adventures.
Except for that time when she ends up making an heir to her family name. She'll get fucked by an anon she never loved.

She never loved you, anon. She just wants your body. ;_;

>>6513235
She could just go to a sperm bank, you know.

>>6513250
You're so silly. Where's the fun in not dominating virgin anons during wild sex plays?

>>6513129
Explain.

>>6513287
You make a good point. This is awesome older Rin who wouldn't be afraid to rough up her young would-be lovers.

>>6512374
Wait a moment. What about Casters attribute and alignment?

>>6513340
>>6513287
Why does Rin being a dom sound so perfect for her?

>>6513169
You are now imagining Rin fighting Nazis.

>>6513464
Greek/Child Murderer.

>>6513491

It's the red clothing. And the fact that she raped Saber once.

>>6513515
Saber was totally into it though.

>>6513515
That and she's possibly part-vampire.

>>6513515
It's not rape if the other person enjoys it.

>>6513527
u wot?

>>6513532

Fine, 'molested'. Still a dom.

>>6513527

What?

>>6513532
It's implied she may be the descendant of vampires, ''stick her in the ground for mana'' and such.

>>6513540

Explain further.

>>6513538
>- It is possible that Rin is a descendant of vampires because of her connection to Zelretch. It is alluded and implied by Kotomine when he mentions that The Tohsaka house is built atop of a vampire's leyline, and that burying Tohsaka in the earth could do good for her mana, as vampires can sleep under the earth to recover their strength.

>>6513550
Kotomine was probably joking about sticking her in the ground for mana.

>>6513550
FSN just got sparkly.

>>6513550

Huh. That's really hot.

Well, magical bloodlines always originate from fantastic creatures, right? Unless you're an idiot like Shirou and convert your nervous system into artificial magic circuits.

>>6513556
Kotomine does not seem the joking type especially with blood on the mind.

>>6513590

>>6513590
>Kotomine always tells the truth, and does not embellish/lie/omit key details in order to make the future suffering of other people that much more interesting.

Oh, wait, he's Kotomine. That's his trademark form of intellectual dickery.

Luvia will smite that evil monster.

>>6513612
>>6513602
Intellectual dickery and ''stick her in the ground lol'' are two different things.

Her heritage is not that big on his agenda, I doubt he would bother to make such a passive like.

But, you have a point.

>>6513612

He never actually lies, though. He's Lawful.

He just conveniently forgets to tell people certain important things until the time that will cause the most suffering. Hell, he even ADMITS to this.

This is what makes him a good villain.

>>6513635
>>6513619
Look, the point is Kotomine is not a reliable source of information, especially when it's mentioned or hinted at absolutely nowhere else in the game.

>>6513635
He's not Lawful. He broke contract with Rin's father. That puts you off of Lawful by default, especially when you do it for selfish reasons.

>>6513646
Besides Kotomine, there's still Zelretch that gives a hint or rather her connection with it.

>>6513646
To be fair, it's not as if anyone ASKED him if he had dozens of young childen locked up in his basement that he was slowly killing over the space of a decade.

>>6513602
Ugh, thanks for reminding me that Rin's daddy and mommy are doomed for death or worse in F/Z.

>>6513657
Yes, what a detail they missed to ask about...

>>6513655
Betrayal and breaking certain contracts is standard Lawful Evil operation.

People tend forget the ''Evil'' in ''Lawful Evil'', it doesn't quite follow the same modus operandi as Neutral or Good Lawful.

>>6513659
I didn't even consider that. He was telling the truth. They are orphaned children.

And guess who ultimately was responsible for orphaning them?

Kotomine, you delicious, magnificent bastard.

>>6513673

And that's why he's a great villain.

>>6513655

Lawful doesn't necessarily mean 'always follows contracts', but rather 'always follows a specific code of honor'.

Predictable behaviour, in other words. Kotomine never directly lies, but he does twist the truth in order to fuck with people.

>>6513655

Actually the contract was ended, remember? He was no longer his apprentice and was being sent away.

Kotomine had no reason to leave him alive at all.

>>6513803
Hmmm... I have no counter. Kotomine is Lawful Evil.

>>6513807

And that's why he's a great villain.

>Q: If Leys were to arm wrestle, where would her strength be ranked in the Fate world?
>A: Leys's arm wrestling is... about equal to Rider (using Monstrous Strength), perhaps? In stat terms, around B-.

Fuck, Leys is overpowered.

>>6513550
"vampire's leyline"? Stop making things up. And Nagato was a martial artist not a vampire.

>>6513550
The crosses are because they are old christians.
The connection to Zeltrech is that of apprentice, it is even explained how they were initially the one with the least promise.

>>6513464
Nasu doesn't care about Caster/ Nasu doesn't care about Caster

>>6514429
Hey that means in that thread were we argued if berserker could hold rider down and fuck her even if she was using monster strength I was in the right.

Awesome

>>6514429
But can they beat Arc?

>>6515016
the old booger trick would work I think, though she'd probably kill you afterword.

He my captcha is straight out the Koran.

>>6515023
Neither Leys nor Rider would ever do such a disgusting thing. That sounds more like something Shiki would do.

>>6514429
Where did this come from?

>>6515016
Man, I love that pic.

>Emiya Shirou IQ = 97
>Matou Sakura IQ = 79
Well that explains a lot.

>>6515076

>>6512043
>Excalibur (A++ NP) is more than A++ normal attack (150)

Actually, the ++ attribute that Excalibur has means that it can in some situations increase its normal output by 3. So she'd get 450 in total temporarily.

>>6515076
Pulling numbers out of your ass?
Not even have Nasu not given out IQ stats for the characters, he might also too lazy for such things.
And if he cared we would have had those stats years ago.

Can Sane Heracles beat Gilgamesh?

Is Altrouge in this?

>>6515094
No, this wasn't pulled out of the ass. You should use google. It's on Beast's Lair.

>>6515110
It's a Fate material.

So unless Nasu tries to make Tsukihime 2, probably we won't get anymore information. Which sucks, because even guys like Merem and Gransburg got character materials made for them.

>>6515097
No, among the Fate cast, only Lancelot can beat Gilgamesh.

>>6515126
Not sure about that. Archer Herakles would probably be unstoppable.

>>6515076

If Sakura was that dumb she'd have never made it though middle school.

Seems a pretty accurate number for Shirou, though. Dumb but not too dumb.

>>6515119
>because even guys like Merem and Gransburg got character materials made for them

They are Arcueid/Crimson Moon's subjects, so of course they need their own materials.

>>6515126
Oh right. Forgot about that stupid ANTI-DIVINE BEINGS CHAIN

>>6515138
>IQ
>related to grades
You can be one dumb motherfucker and still have high grades just by doing what you're told by the teacher to do, which is basically what schooling actually is.

You can have one helluva IQ and still get low grades just because you don't give a fuck.

>>6515126
Lancelot wouldn't have stood a chance if Gilgamesh had used Ekindu or Ea on him. He was only able to counter Gate of Babylon.

Damn it, Nasu. Been waiting for a long time to get to see what Altrouge even looks like. Pisses me off. If you're not going to release a Tsukihime 2, at least release what the rest of the DAA fucking look like.

>>6515144

An IQ of seventy-nine is very, very close to being retarded.

You will do poorly in school the second it stops being about following instructions and starts being about figuring shit out on your own. And yes, it does eventually start being about that, Japanese high schools teach American college-level material.

>>6515126

Lancelot could not defeat Gilgamesh if he went all out, Avalon Saber and only Avalon Saber can among the Servants.

>>6515148

Enkidu would do nothing to insane Lancelot, he would rend it to bits as though it were tissue paper. He has no response to Enuma Elish, however.

>>6515155
That might be because japanese colleges teach the high school material.

Genius 144 0.13%
Gifted 130-144 2.14%
Above average 115-129 13.59%
Higher average 100-114 34.13%
Lower average 85-99 34.13%
Below average 70-84 13.59%
Borderline low 55-69 2.14%
Low <55 0.13%

>>6515076
Don't tell me you actually believed that guy's "secret information from TM's forum".

>>6515171
>thread that's translating the Complete Material 3.

>>6515148

Gilgamesh doesn't seem to be able to fire Enkidu any faster than the Gate of Babylon.

Worst-case scenario, Lancelot grabsteals Enkidu and lassos Gilgamesh netting a certain victory.

>>6515148
>if Gilgamesh had used Ekindu or Ea on him
>Enkidu

I bet you're one of those guys that think Enkidu would be able to chain Arcueid, right? Lancelot has 0 Divinity, he had no trouble pulling out a massive chunk of steel (the Vulcano canon) that weights 200 kgs from the F15. He'll have no trouble breaking a shitty chain that only works against beings with Divinity. And if you think Gilgamesh would ever think of using Ea against Lancelot, forget it, just forget it, seems like you don't know who you're talking about here. This is Gilgamesh, the guy that threatened to kill his Master just because he suggested him to use Ea against an unworthy opponent.

>>6515186

He WILL use Ea when pushed into a corner, but by that point he's clearly panicking.

However, it'd all depend on his armor. He survived a full assault from Saber (yes, weakened, but still Saber) with just that absurd magical armor, so he'd have to survive an attack from Lancelot for as long as it takes to fire Enuma Elish (assuming he panics only when Lancelot is already in his face).

>>6515114
So you found that on BL, but failed to notice how all the moonspeakers immediately pointed out that it was fake?

>>6515165
No, Lancelot can just use Gilgamesh's own Noble Phantasms against him, since he is proficient at using ANYTHING he grabs. In Fate Zero Gilgamesh never dominated Lancelot, Gilgamesh might be able to beat all the other Servants, but not Lancelot.

>>6515200
>says fake
>none of the posts says it was a fake

>>6515170

Forrest Gump had an IQ of 75. That should tell you something.

>>6515201

Lancelot cannot do anything about Enuma Elish. Nothing at all.

Don't say Gilgamesh wouldn't use it, he'd only use it when he completely loses his head. The matter is if that's too late or not.

Remember, he only got his arm cut off in UBW because he was not wearing his magical armor.

>>6515196
> it'd all depend on his armor

His armor can take normal blows, but it will mean shit if Lancelot activates the special ability of his Noble Phantasms to finish him off.

>>6515215

He's a Berserker, he won't think to do that. And if you say Sane Lancelot, he cannot keep up with Gate of Babylon without the speed boost.

Furthermore that entirely depends on the weapons he has. If he happens to wielding Dainslef for whatever the fuck reason, it's not gonna help.

>>6515211
Gump ended up as a millionaire.

>>6515204
>Smells like google translate to me.
>I'd say the biggest giveaway is that all the names are spelled the same as they would be if you stuck them through English-to-Japanese google translate. And how "Femalre" got through untranslated because it was misspelled.
>taken directly from /a/non who said its from a TYPE-MOON forum or staff or something

Sure is legit in here.

>>6515211
>>6515224

Gump's luck stat was A+++.

>>6515218
Lol no. Lancelot is crazy, yes, but he never lost his prudence or the ability to grasp an opportunity when he sees one. This is clearly shown at the time he stopped GoB, he dropped inferior weapons the moment a better one appeared. And also against Lancer; he already experienced Lancer's Gae Dearg, so he got out of the F15 and pulled out a Vulcan canon before Gae Dearg touched it. So yeah, if Lancelot sees a chance at victory, then he won't let it pass by.

>>6515186
If Enkidu retrained him for just a few seconds that may well have been enough for Gil to skewer him.

>>6515201
Lancelot would still lose against Ea. How would he be able to grab or deflect a localized collapse of the time-space continuum?

>>6515165
Avalon Saber would still lose if Gil was careful. Sure she's immune to his attacks, but he can still counter Excalibur with Ea. It would come down to mana and I think Saber would run out first since even with Rin as her master she can only use Excalibur a handful of times.

>>6515250

How about every time he sees Saber?

I understand that's a unique case for him actually knowing Saber, however.

Anyway, he's never shown the ability to activate anything but passive Noble Phantasms while insane. He can wield them as though they were his own teeth and claws, but that's different than being able to cast the divine mysteries.

>>6515265

>If Enkidu retrained him for just a few seconds that may well have been enough for Gil to skewer him.

As mentioned, what happens if Lancelot just opts to wield Enkidu? Gilgamesh loses instantly, his Divinity immediately turns against him.

Conclusion:

Lancelot > Gilgamesh

>>6515314

Conclusion:
Enuma Elish = Shut Up.

>>6515265
>If Enkidu retrained him for just a few seconds that may well have been enough for Gil to skewer him.

You're crazy if you think Ekidu would even be able to restrain Lancelot for a second, he has 000000 Divinity and A+ Strength. Enkidu won't last half a second against him. And like >>6515183 said, if Gil is stupid enough to use it, Lancelot would likely grab Enkidu and use it against him, in that case he is just fucked.

>Lancelot would still lose against Ea

See>>6515186 Gilgamesh would never use Ea against Lancelot because he is a mongrel completely unworthy of such a great honor. By saying that Gil would use Ea against him you're going against Gil's very character.

>he's never shown the ability to activate anything but passive Noble Phantasms while insane

Because he has never got the chance to use them. He can use ANY Noble Phantasm as if he were the original wielder.

No weapons, not armor (nude), wrestling, no rules
Lancelot vs Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh would without doubt win.
Out of all the Servanys Gilgamesh is probably the most proficient in hand to hand combat.

Hercules is an insane exception though due to his unrivaled strength and extremely good natural ability, but Gilgamesh could still probably manage to tip him over at best, which would be an increadible feat but that would probably be it.

>>6515438
>Out of all the Servanys Gilgamesh is probably the most proficient in hand to hand combat.
Hahahaha! I sure hope you're trolling.
He's one of the worst close combat fighters in the whole nasuverse. Without his armor, he's done for.Jesus fuck, I'm sure that Rider, Ryougi or even Tohno can beat him in CQC.
However, if using Babylon or EA is allowed... then we have a whole different story. He can beat pretty much anything.
Except, as experience taught us, a certain Dead Ancestors, a Saber with a Avalon or a heretic that uses his nervous system as a magic circuit.

>>6515438
>Gilgamesh is probably the most proficient in hand to hand combat
Are you retarded?

>>6515496
>a certain Dead Ancestors, a Saber with a Avalon or a heretic that uses his nervous system as a magic circuit

And Arcueid (and Crimson Moon Arcueid) at full power + the Types. However, the only DAA that might win against him are ORT, Crimson Moon, and Primate Murder), and maybe Zelretch and the Dark Six, barring those, all the other DAA are royally fucked.

>>6515496
>>6515545
Hand to hand combat, not close combat.
He can be the best at hand to hand combat and still being the worst at close combat as weapons > no weapons.

>>6515564
>weapons > no weapons
False, but carry on. Each has its own strengths.

>>6515265
>Avalon Saber would still lose if Gil was careful. Sure she's immune to his attacks, but he can still counter Excalibur with Ea. It would come down to mana and I think Saber would run out first since even with Rin as her master she can only use Excalibur a handful of times.

How the shit does that work? The only way he could counter Excalibur with Ea is if he fired it exactly at the same time each time. If he's a second off, or she fenits, Ea will simply bounce of Avalon and Excalibur will chop him to bits. Or Saber could just go into close range LIKE SHE FUCKING DOES IN THAT FIGHT.

>>6515561
>all other DAA are fucked
One drunkard DAA can imagine Gilgamesh dead, one DAA can kill Gilgamesh instantly just by expanding an RM field, one DAA has six giant golems apart from his own army and himself, one DAA absorbs all kinds of magic within its zone and if he weren't just dead already because of a fruit knife wielding assassin, he'd most likely Gilgamesh, I have no idea how strong Altrouge is, but considering she beat an Arcueid that was probably STILL stronger than 30 percent Arcueid (someone who could give Gilgamesh a run for his money) along with two DAA bodyguards and a huge pet of Gaia...

I wouldn't be so sure that Gilgamesh could beat a lot of the DAAs that easily.

>>6515561
But Zelretch can spam Excaliblasts, right?

>>6515570
The only advantage unarmed combat has over weilded combat is how you do not need weapons for unarmed combat.
Depending on the situation unarmed combat may also be to be prefered when simply subduing someone.

But no matter how much training you have you the odds will still be greatily in favour of the one with a weapon in hand.
The amount of training need to be greatly in favour of the unarmed fighter if the unarmed fighter is to gain the odd's favour.
There is a reason weapons have been used to the extent it has.

>>6515745
>One drunkard DAA can imagine Gilgamesh dead

Yeah, just like Arcueid. Except that since the power of Marble Phantasm depends on the scale of the elemental, and since Arcueid is on the same level as Types and Gods, Arc's MP >>>>>>>>> Sumire's MP so much that it isn't even funny.

>she beat an Arcueid that was probably STILL stronger than 30 percent Arcueid

Lol what? So what you're saying is that A beats B, so that means A beats C too. That's bullshit, it doesn't work that way. In the Nasuverse there is something called affinity, so even if Altrouge beat Arcueid that doesn't mean she can beat Gilgamesh. We have no info about Alt's abilities, but there is no way she could have won against Arcueid by simply trying to overpower her, NO ONE can beat Arcueid that way (not even Heracles), unless it is ORT. Also see>>6510100 Nasu didn't say that Alt is so far above Servants, meaning that Alt is just Servant-level. If Arc were a DAA, Nasu would defenitely have mentioned her by saying something like this; Full power Arc has strength of a bit more than 13 Servants, an in her current weakened state she has he strength of 4. So yeah, Alt must just have really good affinity against Arc, like with Gil and Shirou. Of course, that doesn't mean Alt can win against Gil.

>>6515570
As a martial artist, I can tell you right now that this is false 99% of the time.

Also, to those saying Gil can't beat Lancelot: he can, easily. But he won't, he never will. Honestly, Gil can lose to pretty much half of the servant cast (even more) because of his pride. Just think about what would've happened if Gil had his armour when facing against Shirou?

>>6515871
Nasu never said Alt was any kind of Servant-level. Understand that Gilgamesh is also Servant-level.

And understand that even if it's an affinity fight, Altrouge STILL beat an Arcueid that would have wiped the shit out of Gilgamesh. That does not discount Altrouge not having any ability to defeat Gilgamesh at all.

And Arcueid at less than 6 percent used a vacuum attack that would have killed Gilgamesh on the spot. Sumire has MP and she doesn't have to worry about percents like Arcueid does.

>>6515952
>Altrouge STILL beat an Arcueid that would have wiped the shit out of Gilgamesh

No, Gilgamesh is stronger than all Servants, he is easily on the level of Types, since Ea has the power to kill Types.

>Altrouge STILL beat an Arcueid that would have wiped the shit out of Gilgamesh. That does not discount Altrouge not having any ability to defeat Gilgamesh at all.

No, you're still saying that since your Charizard can beat my Venosaur, then that means your Charizard must be able to beat a Blastoise too. It doesn't work that way dude, just because Shirou defeated Gilgamesh doesn't mean he'll be able to beat Berserker. Also, what makes you think the Arcueid at that time would have been able to beat Gilgamesh? Arcueid has the basic stats of 1 Servant (30%, 70% or 100%, it doesn't matter), and she gets a power bonus depending on her enemy's powerlevel, meaning that is pretty much impossible to beat her by brute force, or by using your own power. The only reason Gil can beat is Arc because he has a massive ammount of weapons with extremely high versatility that aren't taken into account by the world in the power bonus that Arc gets. So unless Altrouge doesn't rely on her own power, then she couldn't have been able to defeat Arcueid. Alt can transform right? For all we know, once she transforms the world only gives Arc enough strength to defeat her first form, in that case she might lose regardless of being at 30%, 50% or 100%. But again, this doesn't suggest that Alt might be able to beat Gil.

>Sumire has MP and she doesn't have to worry about percents like Arcueid does.

And? Sumire is still a shitty water demon faaaaaar inferior in comparison to a supreme elemental like Arc. Arc is on the level of Types and Gods on normal condition.

>>6516014
>Ea
>power to kill Types
>discounts the fact that Types have the power to kill Gilgamesh in less time and most of his attacks won't even work on ORT because lol Crystal Valley which most Types have in some way or the other
Gilgamesh has the power to kill Shirou. He died.

Arcueid on 100 percent basically has no limits in her MP usage. She would also still be powerful beyond Gilgamesh's physical stats. She can still reduce Gilgamesh to nothing far easier at 100 level.

Sumire may be a shitty water demon, but she still has the ability to shred Gilgamesh where he stands.

>>6516040
>discounts the fact that Types have the power to kill Gilgamesh in less time and most of his attacks won't even work on ORT because lol Crystal Valley which most Types have in some way or the other

Please. Most Types are horribly big and slow as fuck (Type Jupiter, Type Saturn, Type Venus. As for ORT, lol no, all ORT's Crystall Valley does is turn the environment of the earth to mercury, nothing more and nothing less. Besides, Ado Edem's Slash Emperor has been stated to be able to open the Blood Sky in order to show a glimpse of the Truth, the same Truth in Gilgamesh's Ea. So if Slash Emperor can kill Types, then Ea sure as hell can.

And yeah, Arcueid 100% has no limit in MP's power, but whether she is at 30% or 100% her physical stats would be the same against any oponent as long as they aren't stronger than 4 Servants, the only thing that changes is the cap (the max ammount of power that she can get).

Regarding Altrouge - she's a failed copy. As long as there's no other source regarding what her powers can do, then nothing can really be said. She's not a full True Ancestor, she's a mix. Powers aren't stable going by Tsukihime Lab, can't use Marble Phantasm either. What else do we know? Specializes in contracts. Hair cutting incident would have had to occur after Roa came along, which would have been when she was forced to restrain her powers even more (could have been more than present day or could have been less, who knows?); and still, nothing was actually said about her "winning". They're completely different beings and Altrouge isn't as close to the level of CM yet as Arcueid; the only bit that would make her an even greater monster would be the fact that Primate Murder is obeying her.

>>6516014
>just because Shirou defeated Gilgamesh doesn't mean he'll be able to beat Berserker
About that...

>>6516119
Shirou is basically able to kill/destroy most of anything due to having the weapons available.
That however doesn't mean he can do it in practice, same thing with Shiki.
I mean, it is not like you really need to have eyes of death perception if you have weapons like that, it is not exactly as if someone takes a blow from a noble phantasms and stands.

Also regarding that berserker, he was blind, already dying, and he may very well have only one life left.

While we're making up a bullshit about MP can be used
How many times have we actually seen it used?

>>6517124
3ish times in Tsukihime, I think. Haven't read it in 2 years or so.

>>6517124
1. When Arcueid turned the air into a shredder in order to kill Roa. Note that she was extremely weakened at this point, meaning that this is likely a weak (although effective) attack of a weak scale..

2. When Arcueid/Tatari summoned the Millenium Castle; the MC is summoned through Marble Phantasm even though the final result is considered a Reality Marble.

3. When Arc summoned the world from 1000 years into the future. Note that here Arc didn't just summoned a red moon, she made all the modifiers so that the world would look just like the world of 1000 years later. So it was pretty much time travel, although the method was different from the one of Sorcery, the final result was the same. But she couldn't fight as she was using all of her power in order to maintain that world.

>>6517248
>3. When Arc summoned the world from 1000 years into the future. Note that here Arc didn't just summoned a red moon, she made all the modifiers so that the world would look just like the world of 1000 years later. So it was pretty much time travel, although the method was different from the one of Sorcery, the final result was the same. But she couldn't fight as she was using all of her power in order to maintain that world.

When the hell did that happen?

>>6516117
ORT isn't slow. The last guy who tried to kill it got obliterated in seconds.

>>6517265
Melty Blood.
At least the Red Moon bit, I don't know if that poster is correct about the rest of that part.

>>6517269
Thats cause he walked up too it and also was some shitty dead apostle.

>>6517265
Melty Blood. And before you say that's not a good place to get information from, Nasu was part of the development team and the only things that they fucked up for that fighting game were balancing the fighters' fighting abilities to make for equal gameplay.

>>6517265
In order to get around Zepia's contract.

That was an ass move though. All that guy ever wanted to do is helping humanity survive. Then a bunch of assholes kill him and doom all humans. Enjoy your Angel Notes, fucktards.

>>6517274
Considering how a lot of DAAs can kill just by imagining or blasting motherfuckers with spells or RMs (one of them is a mage from the Age of Gods making his spells full of mystery and age = powerful), I'm pretty sure you just can't discount how powerful a single DAA is.

Besides, Nasu already said ORT can't be beat.

>>6517273
>>6517276
>>6517275
Oh I never did arc's story in meaty breads.

I only play as Sacchin and sometimes Nero.

Why doesn't Arcueid imagine a way to permanently kill Roa?

>>6517279
Actually, that story isn't Arcueid's. It's in Shiki's route, the route most likely considered MB's canon.

>>6517269
Even though it contradicts canon, I like to think ORT arrived by falling on the poor guy. Imagine taking a walk one day, having recently attained your position as a nigh-immortal vampire elder, except suddenly a massive spider UFO crashes on your face.

>>6517278
I didn't say they'd win but a smarter DAA with a name would probably last more than a few seconds.

Or just not attack ORT.

Maybe if we leave ORT alone long enough it'll learn that it can't make friends by obliterating everyone who comes near it.

>>6517290
I can only think of the toilet seat from dead like me.

>>6517282
Because Arc is dumb.

>>6517282
Marble Phantasm only works according to what the world can produce, that as long as it can happen (even a very, very, very minute chance) she can will it to reality. Obviously, the world isn't in the business of eliminating someone's reincarnation as that's humanity's forte.

>299 posts and 28 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.
/jp/ is Tsundere for type-moon

>>6517296
I like the fact that Arcueid can create a village of humans at full 100 percent. I was like, lol.

>>6517296
So she can make castles appear out of nowhere but she can't do anyhting about souls? lolwat

>>6517296
Well, she can still go proton decay on Roa's ass the moment he shows his face, but she doesn't.

>>6517298
N-No I'm not you i-idiot.

Shut up, shut up, shut up!

>>6517265
MBAA.

Arc: This vision. The death of the planet.
Arc: The future, where everything has returned to dust and been destroyed?
Dust: Yes. I welcome you, Crimson Moon. This is a vision of the future that you once summoned. The final and ultimate method of salvation that I desire.

Ries: There's no sound. Where am I? This is not Misaki. No, this doesn't even match any place in the world.
Ries: This is almost as if...
Dust of Osiris: This is the result of hatred.
Dust of Osiris: The future of the death of this planet, summoned by the True Ancestor to defeat the Night of Wallachia. That which I have been seeking, the black land to return to.

Of course, there are more, just cheack the translations of MBAA.

>>6517294
Never, Arcueid is literally the Ultimate Life Form, she is far more inteligent than any human being, her IQ is at the very least 200. But is impossible to permanetly kill Roa by just altrering nature, because the only thing that can be affected by MP is nature, MP cannot affect Roa directly.

>>6517309
That castle is her birthright. She has the power to summon it even without Marble Phantasm.

See, even Altrouge can summon that castle. But Altrouge does not have Marble Phantasm.

Even then, 100 percent Arcueid can make a village of humans, since it's within nature to allow that kind of thing to occur. So she's got the power to create buildings. As well as chains which are created by these humans.

Human soul reincarnation is not something that Gaia has a hold on. So she can't do anything to stop it.

>>6517306
>Arcueid can create a village of humans

What the hell? no, she can create a Fairy village, a Fairy village, not a human village. Arcueid cannot use Marble Phantasm to alter anything made by humans, let alone the humans themselves.

But souls evaporate when they are exposed to the outer air so she should be able to do something to Roa with nature

>>6517309
She can't affect human souls because Marble Phantasm CANNOT AFFECT humans or anything related to them directly.

>>6517345
Dude, Arcueid can manifest chains to seal herself with. And even that's not in Melty Blood. Don't tell me fairies made chains too.

>>6517347
No, because after his host is destroyed Roa immediately transfers to his next body.

>>6513615
>>Luvia will smite that evil monster.
Luvia is a dumb Swede.

>>6516117
>And yeah, Arcueid 100% has no limit in MP's power, but whether she is at 30% or 100% her physical stats would be the same against any oponent as long as they aren't stronger than 4 Servants, the only thing that changes is the cap (the max ammount of power that she can get).
I find this argument retarded. Do you know why?

If Arcueid isn't able to utilize any of her 100 percent like that post says, then how is she able to use 70 percent of it to seal her bloodlust?

>>6517345
>she can create a Fairy village
ARC CAN SUMMON GENSOKYO

>>6517354
From fuyuki.

>Melty Blood application of Marble Phantasm involves countless chains acting as her tactile extension (think phantom limb) and is something along the lines of her own touch sensations being magnified. The reason why what's grabbing the target isn't a hand but chains is emotionally representative of her feelings in never allowing herself to be freed from her restraints.

The chains in the Millenium Castle are a part of the castle, and they are reflection of Arc's internal world, basically only Arc's Millenium Castle has chains.

>>6517376
Then what do you suggest? 30% Arc's basic stats = 1 Servant, max power at 30% = 4 Servants. Now, how does her full power work?

>>6515089
What no, that's not how it works.
A is 50 and two pluses makes it 150 temporarily.

>>6511632
>>6512043
No bro, that is from a stat chart arai posted in fuyuki. A++ rank is given a value of 150, but those are values to demonstrate the multipliers of each tier, not actual damage. The value 1 in there represents "normal value" not damage 1. It is to tell you that B rank is twice as strong as D, not that B rank does 40 damage. if you go by the damage logic what would B Agility be? that can dodge 40 damage?

Also, the rank of a Noble Phantasm reflects the degree of mystery, not the actual damage. Rule Breaker doesn't do the same damage as Kanshou and Bakuya even though both are C rank. As for Ea, Ex means that it has a greater degree of mystery, but the damage it cand deal is still only slightly bigger than Excalibur..

>>6510003
This means that faced with a massive counter attack, Ea will be overpowered since the output of Enuma Elish is not all that impressive. Meaning that Arcueid's Moon Fall attack and Type Jupiter's self destruction that blew up a continent should be enough to stop Enuma Elish.

>>6517736
It can "rip the world" so I think it can "rip the moon" temporarily.
Well okay it won't do shit to what Jupiter did.

>>6517647

I see. I though it might be that, but I discarded that thought when the max damage for Enuma Elish seemed to fit with it.

>>6517276
who? is that before or after the aristotles kill all the humans?