/jp/ - Otaku Culture

western masculinity = hard gay, from the Japanese perspective.

tl:dr

captcha: sandess relations

I've never seen any westerners complaining about Leon Kennedy. He's masculine and has that bishounen look going on at the same time. Same goes for Dante from DMC.

>>6189512
>Leon Kennedy
I personally think he looks like a faggot, but that's just me.

>>6189512
Dante is fucking annoying however.

>>6189518
I think it's the hair

>>6189505

I'm okay with this

>>6189499
I don't think it differed too much in the past, I mean look at the old Samurai movies and compare them to Old Wild west movies. The main characters in both of them were stoic badass who spoke little and used their swords/guns to take down ruffians.

Over the course of a few decades something happened. I think its WW2 but I'm no expert. See when USA came out on top in the war we adopted the macho man attitude as a manly trait instead of the quiet badass. When Japan lost they also lost their confidence and slowly adopted the image we see today.

Anno the creator of NGE said something similar to this, I'll look for the interview.

In Japan, over the top manliness and muscular homosexuality is comedy.
See: Billy Harrington, Bang Shishigami, etc.

Did you read the fucking terrible new york times article? Go back to whereever you first saw it and discuss it there, faggot.

>>6189551
please do. I'm curious now.

>>6189519
And that is why they remade him to look better

>>6189561
>And that is why they remade him to look better
HAHA

There are plenty of otaku who play western FPS games to be ironic.

>>6189559
I remember it said that Anno refered to modern Japan as 'a country of children' and 'looking up to the big American daddy' or something along those lines.

>>6189578

It's not really Japan vs west but rather Japan vs USA.

In america the ideal of masculinity is a super big mega manly space marine type. Just look at action movie stars or wrestlers.

Japan and Europe don't like that type, especially Japan.

And while japanese games often fail in america many of them are really popular in europe. The problem is many japanese game makers ignore europe and concentrate on USA for some retarded reasons.

And I think USA's ideal of masculinity is changing, especially amongst women.

>>6189559
Found it:

Anno understands the Japanese national attraction to characters like Rei as the product of a stunted imaginative landscape born of Japan’s defeat in the Second World War. “Japan lost the war to the Americans,” he explains, seeming interested in his own words for the first time during our interview. “Since that time, the education we received is not one that creates adults. Even for us, people in their 40s, and for the generation older than me, in their 50s and 60s, there’s no reasonable model of what an adult should be like.” The theory that Japan’s defeat stripped the country of its independence and led to the creation of a nation of permanent children, weaklings forced to live under the protection of the American Big Daddy, is widely shared by artists and intellectuals in Japan. It is also a staple of popular cartoons, many of which feature a well-meaning government that turns out to be a facade concealing sinister and more powerful forces.

Anno pauses for a moment, and gives a dark-browed stare out the window. “I don’t see any adults here in Japan,” he says, with a shrug. “The fact that you see salarymen reading manga and pornography on the trains and being unafraid, unashamed or anything, is something you wouldn’t have seen 30 years ago, with people who grew up under a different system of government. They would have been far too embarrassed to open a book of cartoons or dirty pictures on a train. But that’s what we have now in Japan. We are a country of children.”


http://animediet.net/commentary/hideaki-anno-interviewed-by-atlantic-monthly-by-way-of-getreligionor
g

>>6189578
>http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17727
Found it. Read for yourself, be the judge.

This maybe kind of roundabout since its not the main aim of the video but nevertheless it will shed some light on the problem of perception of a "man" between USA and Japan : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FsaReX4ej0

>>6189600
True source:
>http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/let-8217-s-die-together/5776/3/

>>6189600

>>6189600
>American Big Daddy
I'm picturing now a Big Daddy in Captain America get up protecting a Little Sister dressed as Rei.

>>6189618
That's what America wants to project to the world anyway.

>>6189592
>many japanese game makers ignore europe and concentrate on USA for some retarded reasons

Europe = numerous small countries that speak different languages and have different cultures, making it harder and expensive for localisation/marketing efforts

America = very large population whose main language is English, and has pretty uniform/predictable tastes, making it easier to cater to

Sucks for Europeans, but I think that's reasonable.

>>6189637
I mean sucks for English-speaking Europeans.

>>6189600

He's exaggerating as always.

Although there is a similar concept in the West, in Japan especially overt masculinity is seen as a sign of homosexuality. Weightlifters, athletes, and burly soldiers are generally considered the most closeted gays, while in the west a man who acts particularly feminine is considered more closeted. I suppose the Japanese see it as if a man can look, dress, and act like a woman and still maintain his dignity, then he must be very secure in his sexual orientation. Likewise, if a man has to lift huge weights and prove his manliness constantly, then he must be insecure about it himself.

>>6189499
>So I've been reading
>TV Tropes Wiki

Gee, that's some serious research. You must be really informed now.

That aside:

Japanese developer's aren't doing particularly poorly compared to the rest of the world. It's just that gaming industry in general is in the dumps. Nintendo's doing well because they're smart enough to make games that don't appeal solely to teenage boys, a feat most of other companies are currently incapable of.

This should answer your second question, too. Japan has the same concept of masculinity. It just doesn't go overboard with it trying to appeal to teenage boys like the western gaming culture does. Girls and women play games too, and they want their men to be pretty.

Localization is shit anyways. Everybody I know prefer games with original voices and only text translated. And pretty much everybody knows english anyways so translating to other languages is pointless.

>>6189672
TV tropes is serious business, bro. They've got info on ALL THE TROPES and come up with cutting edge new ones every day, not to mention finding countless overlooked examples of old ones. Anyone writing any sort of story should study the site.

>>6189668
Fuck man, it seems like Japan has many insecurities and hides them by making fun of modern masculinity.

>>6189683
Yeah but I'm not immortal so I can't use TVtropes

>>6189592
>rather Japan vs USA.

I agree with this. Even though the world world has been very americanized these last decades, Europe still has different taste than America, and several countries, like France, Germany and others prefer Japanese, gaming, manga and anime over American gaming, comics and cartoons.

"West" is a overused term. As if Americans were trying to convince themselves that the rest of the world is backing them up in their cultural choices.

>The problem is many japanese game makers ignore europe and concentrate on USA for some retarded reasons.

Actually, the Japaneses don't give a fuck about any other country than their own right from the start. Some foreign companies pay them the rights to translate and distribute their games in other countries. The reason why the USA get more games than Europe is because there are more American companies wishing to distribute these games (and they have more money too).

>>6189695
That's the conclusion you reach? I'm laughing out loud.

>>6189672
>gaming industry in general is in the dumps

This. Almost all modern games are crap aimed at retarded underage boys and little nigger gangstas.

I remember times when it was hard to find time to play all the good games, today it's almost impossible to find a game that is enjoyable for more than 2 days. And everything is aimed at multiplayer.

This is a thoughtful thread. I like this.

>>6189573
>There are plenty of otaku who play American FPS games to be ironic

What do you mean by that? You don't think those games have a serious following in Japan at all? I mean, otherwise how would things like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwFzWi4oXaI&feature=related
come about?

>>6189724
>everything is aimed for bragging to your friends about achievements

>>6189697

Actually world, or at least EU is getting deamericanized in the last decade. I see it all around EU.

It's hard to find people who like american culture anymore.

>>6189668
>man
>look, dress, and act like a woman
>still maintain his dignity

Sure is fallacies around here.

>>6189683
I assume you're being ironic.

>>6189742
Everyone has a feminine side, if you hide it you are just afraid of looking gay. Also, if you aren't willing to wear a robe or a kilt because it reminds you too much of a dress or skirt, you are gay.

>>6189743
I'm not. You really should read the site if you're writing.

Stereotypical homosexual.

>>6189736
i fucking hate achievements.

it makes the devs lazy by adding "achievements" as a reward instead of something that actually matters.

For example; instead of unlocking secret dungeon after you fight 500 times; now you just unlock an achievement.

>>6189758
He's into bestiality, too.

>>6189765
Can you blame him? Only bears are as muscular as he is.

>>6189762
I've always hated ultimate weapons and spells. After I do all this shit, there's nothing left to use them on, what's the point?

>>6189742

Women can dress and act like men so why the hell is it so wrong for men to act and dress like women?

>>6189752
I read the site, otherwise my bad opinion on it wouldn't form.

>come up with

is the key term there. I see it as an euphemistic way of saying "talking out of their collective ass".

>>6189749
>look, dress, and act like a woman
>feminine side
You sure are retarded, faggot.

>>6189777
They're naming stuff. If you don't understand the value of the site after a few minutes, you never will.

>>6189773
It makes the final boss easier. It's more useful if you want to 1st level clear the game and some of the ultimates don't require battle.

>>6189776
>Women can dress and act like men
Where?

Damn, can't you fags make a better argument?

>>6189792
Everywhere. Women wearing pants stopped being illegal decades ago.

masculinity isn't shunned, they just like making fun of the overly closet gay Reagan-era gay

Here's a character that shares both Japanese and western traits of masculinity, and is arguably one of the manliest video game characters ever conceived.

>>6189724
>And everything is aimed at multiplayer.

Not quite true. Games like BioShock receive both critical and popular praise for creating atmospheric, interesting, and fun single-player experiences. And what are some of the most anticipated games now? BioShock Infinite, Half-Life 2: Episode 3, Duke Nukem Forever, maybe even Deus Ex 3? What about the console hack'n'slash genre? Never features multiplayer, but it's extremely popular. What about Mass Effect?

Multiplayer has the potential to be a blight on the landscape, but it isn't, at least not yet.

>>6189814
Conversely, here's a character that shares both the Japanese and Western stereotypes of homosexuality, and is arguably one of the gayest characters ever conceived.

>>6189784
>they're naming stuff

That's bad enough, considering the quality of said names.

But no. They're making stuff up all the way. Go to TVTropes and read about something you actually know about, you'll lose your delusions about it in a second.

People bitching about multiplayer had no friends when they were kids and are nostalgic for hours and hours wasted playing video games.

>>6189776
Well, when women "dress like men", they're taking over a gender role that has traditionally meant being powerful, being capable, and being able to take care of one's self. All of these are admirable traits.

Dressing like a woman, however, is to shun those traditional gender roles in favour of the one which has historically been treated as weak and helpless.

That's my interpretation, anyways.

>>6189817
Bioshock is a FPS, aren't all of those multiplayer? Same goes for all the other ones you named.

>>6189802
>Women wearing pants stopped being illegal decades ago.
What does this have to do with what I said?

...You also said act like man, and it's not normal where I live.

>>6189828
Noone on /jp/ has friends, your point is moot.

why the fuck are gamers so obsessed with looking manly

>>6189833
Being submissive and compromising is important, too. If everyone acted dominant and masculine, the world would be involved in a state of constant war.

>>6189835
BioShock 1 doesn't have multiplayer. Half-Life 2 has HL2 Deathmatch, but that doesn't ship with the game. Deus Ex 3 won't have multiplayer either.

I was wrong about Duke Nukem Forever, though, that's confirmed to have multiplayer. But you never hear anyone talk about it, because the single-player's more important.

>>6189814
>Here's a character that shares both Japanese and western traits of masculinity
>Japanese
Where?

>>6189844
Trying to compensate?

>>6189826
I have read about stuff I know about. I see no problems. You realize it's a wiki? You can correct errors. Not that I'm expecting you to get over your hate of the names (they are shitty) and do that.

>>6189845
There's a difference between being capable and being domineering. Blindly asserting one's dominance is foolish for a world leader. Leaders should be praised for doing the intelligent thing, and not have their actions characterized in terms of "dominance" or "submission". I mean, remember when Obama bowed to the Japanese Emperor?

>>6189851
how about looking up on about information instead of shit made up by anime and comicbook nerds?

>>6189849
Not the guy you were talking to, but I imagine it's the grief he feels over The Boss, and stuff.

Metal Gear is a really Japanese game, despite its outward appearance. Boss battles aren't a match of who's better at shooting a gun, but rather a test of strength of will. This is why Liquid Snake can shoot down fighter jets with a helicopter, and it's also why his helicopter takes like ten Stinger missiles to shoot down.

>>6189857
He was being submissive, bowing has always been a sign of submission. If he was super alpha male masculine, he would have came in there with his middle finger up. Basically, think of what would happen if Rance lead the US.

>>6189868
What I'm saying is that Obama bowed out of respect and courtesy to a foreign figurehead. He didn't bow because he thought Japan was dominant over the US, and he didn't bow out of fear.

This is precisely what I'm talking about. You can't characterise decisions of your leader by how "dominant" or "submissive" they make you feel your country appears. The country doesn't need its ego to be defended.

>>6189861
That's just it, there is no better source of information in the world for tv tropes subject matter (naming shit) than tv tropes.

>>6189866
>Metal Gear is a really Japanese game
>Boss battles aren't a match of who's better at shooting a gun, but rather a test of strength of will.
Since when 'who's better at shooting a gun' is a western characteristic?

>This is why Liquid Snake can shoot down fighter jets with a helicopter, and it's also why his helicopter takes like ten Stinger missiles to shoot down.
Nothing what you said make it Japanese, just the location where it was made.

>>6189851
I did a few edits there years ago. I quickly got discouraged, it's impossible in the long run, the site has no quality control. It's not just factuality, they can't even make their articles logically consistent.

Say what you will about Wikipedia's nazi policies, they're what makes it useful.

I'm not american, but Obama bowing only showed, in essence, that he is a poster boy rather than a President.
He obviously did it to to give off a "I'm respecting foreign customs" vibe, but bowing while shaking hands at the same time is a retarded breach of the same etiquette he was trying to respect.
He wanted to give the Emperor due respect, but couldn't do away with the handshake from fear of severe criticism from americans (only bowing really would have given off a submissive vibe).
So basically he tried to appeal to both parties, leaving both dissatisfied. An half-heartedness that shows how he's too busy trying to look good to actually be a good president.

>>6189896
Good, judging from your writing style in this post I'd rather not read your edits.

>>6189887
I think those are pretty Japanese characteristics. Metal Gear is inspired by Western action thrillers, right? But how many Western games or movies are there where the villain has to be shot about a dozen times before dying? Imagine if in COD4 you finally shot Zakhaev at the end, and then he just yelled ARRGH and then ran around some pillars for a bit? Or if throwing that knife at Shepard just made him wince in pain and transition into a knife-only boss battle?

Metal Gear Solid is character-driven and personalitydriven at the expense of realism, traits you don't see often in Western games.

>>6189902
Eh, I think it's the thought that counts. Whatever. It's only a big deal because Americans made it so in the first place.

I for one, liked Lost Planet 2.

Basically, Japanese developers suck at knowing what western gamers like.
Blame the countries xenophobia or whatever but many people still like Japanese games for what they are.
The trend to try and 'westernize' games will probably hurt the gaming economy more then help it.

>>6189904
Oh. But you did understand, right? Or should I use shorter words and sentences for you?

When it comes to the video game debate, people tend to overlook the fact that both wrpg and jrpg genres are mostly marketed towards teenagers. In the west, teenagers enjoy manly space marines doing manly things, while japanese society has been plagued by pro-androgynous culture for over a decade now.

This is why only anime/manga/rpg enthusiasts in the west tend interested in localized releases, which is nothing compared to the mainstream demographic.

But alot of people (myself included) just grew tired of the same group-of-teenagers-in-highschool setting. Repetitive, uninspiring and generic plots involving two drawings communicating with one another through a text bar, cutting into the done-to-death turn based combat.

At least western RPGs innovated this decade, but it was not for the best. At least I can get a different game experience than I did 10 years ago, unlike jrpgs.

>>6189953
So, change is okay, even if it isn't for the best? I would rather a game mechanic or style be exactly the same, if I enjoyed it to begin with, then to change for the sake of change. Unfortunately, nobody in the game industry (apart from indie/doujin) agrees with me.

Also, now most JRPGs are in 3D, enjoy the pointless change.

Kind-of related, but the upcoming Korean MMO TERA seems to have addressed the masculinity issue by having two slender races, two wide-shouldered "manly" races, a race for furries and lolicons, and a genderless race. So they have all their bases covered. Ironically, even though they made human males all buff with exaggeratedly wide shoulders, presumably to pander to the American demographic, Humans are only one step above the least popular race.

http://www.tera-online.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3810

I guess it goes to show you that the people spreading the whole "manly" aesthetic don't really know what's popular.

i love WRPGS when they was like buldur's gate and arcanum.

the newer wrpgs are really really shit. actually i dont think you can even call those newer wrpgs a rpg. (mass effect/fallout3)

btw arcanum and NOX are still my favorite wrpg to date.

>>6190266
>I guess it goes to show you that the people spreading the whole "manly" aesthetic don't really know what's popular.

What do you mean by that? People say they want manly characters because they themselves want them, not because they're popular.

>>6189953
>western RPGs innovated this decade

...just wat.

>>6190283
There's a disproportionate number of those people making games here in the west.

I guess that's what he meant.

>>6190319
Ah, I see. Well, uh, I'd like to point out that the demographics might be a little skewed in obscure Korean MMOs versus the market as a whole.

>>6190266
>a genderless race
Pit-Pat (The Magical, Pan-sexual, Non-threatening Spokesthing™) is finally in a video game?

I believe Japan as of now is largely uninspired, and slowly losing their identity.

When you've been using totally different design philosophies for year and want to improve, you can't just expect to go and suck up westerners for a change. That hasn't been how Japan kept up with the rest of the market for the past 20 years.

It's about tightening the experience, and setting aside what you believe is flawed, without having to sell out and lose all the charm you're known for.
I swear I'm going to hire an assassin to totally murder Inafune's ass and further stop all the damage he's caused.

I believe Japan as of now is largely uninspired, and slowly losing their identity.

When you've been using totally different design philosophies for the past years and want to improve, you can't just expect to go and suck up westerners for a change. That hasn't been how Japan kept up with the rest of the market for the past two decades.

It's about tightening the experience, and setting aside what you believe is flawed, without having to sell out and lose all the charm you're known for.

I swear I'm going to hire an assassin to totally murder Inafune's ass and further stop all the damage he's caused. That's not how renovation works.

>>6190346
but his games are actually fun.
now look at other jap devs... they cant even make fun games anymore.

>>6190358
As in gameplay yes, but they're starting to get more and more dry and full of that awful western-style realism, aside from a few elements.

>>6190275
The old RPG style is just dead. There will never be another Baldur's Gate.

You will either get MMOs, single-players MMOs (like Dragon Age or Mass Effect), or free-roam sandboxy type action games with stats (like Fallout 3)

That said I think I can live with more games like Fallout 3 and Dragon Age.

>>6190406
i played mass effect2/dragons age/fallout3

mass effect2 and fallout3 was kinda fun.
i liked ME2's story and liked fallout3's vast world to explore

dragons age in the other hand is really very fucking shit. the entire game feels like endless sidequests.

>I swear I'm going to hire an assassin to totally murder Inafune's ass and further stop all the damage he's caused.

Don't do it until he makes Legends 3.

Relevant to OP's interest. Interview with a Capcom dude who thinks that Japan needs to westernize their games.
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/20/one-on-one-keiji-inafune-game-designer/

>>6190423
But do you think Fallout 2/Baldur's Gate was better?

>>6189512
Capcom specifically tried to make RE5 western.

>>6190430
I'll wait until it comes out.

>>6190432
...and I'm not turning back!

>>6189558
/jp related discussion in MY /jp/?
BLASPHEMY! GO SOMEWHERE ELSE TO TALK ABOUT /jp/ RELATED NEWS!

>>6190423
That's an interesting viewpoint. In DA you're actually contributing to the main story the whole way through. The whole point of the game is to recruit four armies. Each one has a problem you must solve before they pledge their loyalty. You solve the problem, recruit the army, move onto the next one, repeat, then face the final boss. That's literally the whole game. I thought it was actually much less sidequesty and more direct than most RPGs.

In the old Baldur's Gate and Fallout games you do way, way more stuff that has no relation at all to the main story.

>>6190438
i never played fallout besides 3 so no clue on that
and i think buldur's gate was and still is better than mass effect2.

>>6190451
its barely got a story. so the entire game feels like a collection of sidequests for me. might aswell play WoW.

>>6190460
You must just be trolling.

>>6190451
So kinda like this game minus the micromanagement bit, yeah?

Good threads don't belong on /jp/.

>>6190490
The connections the mini-quests are to your main quest are so thin, it's like they added them as an excuse. At least they could have been honest and said you were justing doing it for the money.

>>6190490
no character development
no story development

the only character that i liked was that tree in the warewolf forest that speaks in rhyme

>>6190509
The little girl who likes ponies was also good.

Wjy can't japanese companies be more like Atlus? Full of great, innovative stuff and still manages to released most of their games overseas.

If the west can't appreciate 'em, their loss.

Why can't japanese companies be more like Atlus? Full of great, innovative stuff and still manages to released most of their games overseas.

If the westerners can't appreciate 'em, their loss.

Why can't japanese companies be more like Atlus? Full of great, innovative stuff and still manages to release most of their games overseas.

If the westerners can't appreciate 'em, their loss.

Bitches don't know bout my kabuki theater

>>6190558
didn't atlus go under?

>>6190564
Nah, they're just part of a bigger group now, for financial reasons. Still the good ol' Atlus we know and love.

>>6190564
It got bought, but it's still around as a working entity.

>>6190571
But their recent games aren't the same. You can't say Persona plays like SMT. It simply doesn't.

>>6190266
Actually, as an ardent and old MMO player, I can tell you that statistics show that people who play the human race are likely to quit the game the least, and end up being the longest lasting players. And like someone else already mentioned, you're viewing the stats of a forum of a game that is projected to release far into 2011. This by no means is exemplary of the majority of MMO gamers in any way

>boring touhou threads every day
>surprisingly interesting threads are vidya related

I'm starting to notice a pattern here

>>6190633
... Touhou is a video game series.

>>6190633
Stop flattering yourself nigger. You only think this thread is "good" because it's relevant to your interests.

>>6190579
But they never did. They're spin-offs.

>>6190657
But they pretty much discontinued the main series in favor of it.

Caim here, managing to be badass as hell without going overboard. Why can't more protagonists be like him?

>>6190665

SMT was a series?

>>6190626
Probably because normalfags play human and normalfags only have a few hours here and there on the weekends to play. Games stay interesting longer when you only play a couple of hours a week and don't internet all day such that you know there are better games out there.

>>6190674
The first one was called Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Story, right? And then the others were always prefaced by SMT.

Still waiting for Skies of Arcadia II

;_;

>>6190686
Yes, except without the "Shin". Shin Megami Tensei was the first SNES game in the series.

>>6190729
Oh, OK, right. But Megami Tensei and Shin Megami Tensei are all basically MegaTen, anyway, while Personal has a different gameplay entirely.

If the Persona Series is the best Japan can do, then good riddance JRPGs. horribly simple gameplay+grinding for 60 hours should be left to the MMOs.

>>6190744
It's not, that's what I was just saying.

>>6190744
Persona 4 featured good characters, an interesting plot, a trap, a reverse trap and an ambiguously gay character with a flamboyantly gay boss. Can you do better than that?

>>6190755
You just like it because it reminds you of a VN.

>>6190755
>Can you do better than that?

Persona 3. All of it. Persona 4 was terrible and shat all over everything that was good and fun about its predecessor.

It's sad that "Persona" now is basically synonym for 3&4.
Persona 2 (including both games) is one of the best jrpg I ever played.

>>6189499
Why the fuck is it always "Japan vs the West" (referring to OP's filename) in threads like these? Is it even fair to pin one tiny country against so many?

>>6190782
Already said, America likes to assume that Europe's got their backs to make itself seemingly superior that it really is.

>>6190669

>>6190802

>>6190808

>>6190814

I condone Caim/Angelus bestiality.

I don't think the east vs. West thing actually exists, only In marketing and PR discussion meetings. Thinking movies, the man with no name was incredibly bad-ass but no overly masculine in a screaming gay or hardcore affliction t-shirt way. The newer Rambo movie character was just short of being screaming gay masculine, but was not annoying because he tore out a mans throat bare handed. It's a matter of how the characters are portrayed that makes people like or hate them.
The gaming boom was a wave nintendo rode to great success the past few years ringing in the casual market which has screwed up the numbers percentage-wise for the rest of the Japanese gaming industry. The casual market will largely bail from the SS cockfaggotry leaving only the select few idiots who had already been there (and the younger generation of retards).

>>6190626
I don't know. The High Elves are different only in the fact that they're more slender and have pointy ears. The Castanics just have orange skin, horns, and slutty outfits. Neither of them stray far from realistic human proportions, but human males stray very far from those proportions. If anything, Humans one of the more alien races in the game.