/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>Love Battles and that her first love forgot her.
Not true because this is the dumbest reason ever

Denied.

>The Whydunit: Love Battles and that her first love forgot her.

Fucking worse than Takano's reason to go nuts in Higurashi.

>>5726143
Kinzo saw her dressed up as Beatrice and raped her for 6 years

>>5726120
>The Howdunit
You didn't explain how each murder was carried out

>>5726143
Also kinzo raped her.

>>5726161
Shootan n stabban

I disagree.

>personalities dying
That wouldn't fly in any real detective mystery.

>>5726195
Neither would the rest of Umineko.

Legend of the Golden Witch

First Twilight:
Shkanontrice bribes Hideyoshi and Eva to help her.
Shannon personality dies.
She hides in the shed and later escapes.

Fourth Twilight:
She puts her rapist's corpse in to the furnace

Second Twilight:
She kills her two accomplices.

Fifth Twilight:
Kanon personality dies.

Sixth - Seventh - Eighth twilight:
Kills her accomplices since Battler still hasn't solved the epitaph and time is running out.

Ninth Twilight:
Kills Natsuhi after luring her out.

Tenth Twilight:
Cackles then the bomb explodes.

And both Shannon and Kanon died in the 1st twillight in ep 1.

Denied denied denied.

>>5726221
kanon "died" in the fifth twilight.

I don't know WHAT TO BELIEVE

>>5726270

I'd bet Jessitrice against Shkanon anytime.

Is there a trusted place where you can bet against other people? i.e. both betters send money to 3rd party and when someone wins the bet, said 3rd party transfers money to the winner?

>>5726292
yes, send me money

>SHKANNONTRICE IS THE ANSWER IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING

Except for how such a character would exist.

Yes that's right, there's apparently a maid they have employed that has another personality, which they also employ, and all the relatives either ignore or somehow don't notice that it's the same person, and each personality is a different sex and in love with two different relatives of different sexes, who also love this person back making them either incredibly oblivious to this persons...

You know what?
It's just easier to call the theory stupid.

>>5726427
this bitch is the one behind shkanon

Episode 3 is still the thin line that prevents Shkanontrice from being accepted by me.

Shannon's corpse was found in the parlor. Shannon and Kanon were both confirmed dead. Not just her personality, but her actual physical body. Dead, dead, dead.

It doesn't explain Nanjo's death.

>>5726481
Kyrie.

could have been worse.

>>5726481
In EP3, what about a fake corpse? I can't remember the exact way Kanon was discovered (just that it was in the chapel), but if he had been lying on the floor on his stomach, they might not have closely examined his face.

>>5726620

There's one Red Text about Episode 3's twilight that doesn't work even with Fake Bodies and Personality Death.

It's in Episode 4, during Beato's final duel,

Regarding the 6 people who were found in the first twilight of episode 3
>>All_of_them_had_wounds_resembling_gunshot_wounds_which_became_fatal!

But as I read this over again, I realize something pretty shocking.

This should include Kinzo.

Hey guys, what's going on here?

>>5726669
"All of them" merely means all of the bodies. It doesn't specifically say that 6 bodies had gunshot wounds

>>5726669
If "them" refers to the corpses and not the actual identities, it still works. The corpses could be fake and they could have died any manner of death. It doesn't matter how they died, just that they're corpses and are being made to look like other people.

>>5726720

It does mean that there would need to be 2 fake bodies. Considering we have no evidence of this in any other game, this makes me think that maybe they actually did die...but that leaves Nanjo's murder up for concern.

It also means that Kinzo died of a Gunshot wound, theoretically.

>>5726764

Am I really the only one who's fascinated by this?

Kinzo dying from a gunshot wound seems to confirm that he was murdered.

>>5726764
There's nothing to be concerned about. It's Kyrie or Hideyoshi who kills Nanjo. Aside from Kyrie's non-fatal area of injury, Ronove refuses to repeat 'Rudolf, Hideyoshi, and Kyrie are dead.' from the get-go.

>>5726808

well we all saw the ep 5 when he "died in peace", scenes like that usually arent full of shit

Everyone realizes Shkanontrice is retarded, which is why we hate that it's the answer.

It requires pretty much EVERYONE to just NOT NOTICE that two people are the same faggot, and her "motive" is FUCKING STUPID, even if Makisaha Tohno raped her.

>>5726836
>everyone must be blind/retarded/in on it
Not this shit again.

OH MAN
MY HANDS ARE SO HUGE

LOOK AT MY HANDS

THEY ARE HUGE

>>5726836

>EVERYONE to just NOT NOTICE that two people are the same faggot

Kanon never existed.

>>5726828

And yet we have a Red Truth that, unless it's a Logic Error, means that Kinzo either died from a hidden gunshot wound, or the culprit shot the body before burning it for no apparent reason.

>>5726852
They do though. They either have to be completely retarded, blind, or in on it.

Seriously, the main bad guy's fearsome ability is cross dressing, using some sort of hyper organized DID.

>>5726620
Still confirmed in red to be dead.

>>5726720
The "All of them" comment referred to all of the 6 dead bodies.
Take into account for the translation. Never take anything literally in Umineko unless it's the Japanese red truth itself.

>>5726669
When I read over your post, I realized something not shocking in the slightest. You look at the red without looking at the context of it.

For that entire scene, since Kinzo's death had just been revealed, Battler doesn't count him as a victim. He says "they were all killed by poison gas". That "all" does not include Kinzo, he knows he wasn't and it's not necessary. Then Beatrice counters with that red.

Soon, my gentle anonymous friends. Soon.

>>5726869

Don't be a douche, I went over and looked at the red text again in the context.

I still say it should include Kinzo in it's wording.

>>5726872
USO DA

YOU FUCKING LIAR

>>5726810
Yes, but what would incite Hideyoshi/Kyrie to murder each other? ShKanon is dead. And there was absolutely no reason to kill Krauss and Natsuhi.

>>5726872
Yeah, soon it's going to be confirmed that you were a promise to Shannon that was broken made Shkanontrice. Like it already isn't. Enjoy that, pony.

not a fan of shkanon but if we think about it all you had to do was put on a show for 2 years and 2 family conferences the time kanon was hired right?

>>5726881
Hideyoshi: lolidunno
Kyrie: She's a mole planted by her original family (Sumadera) who is sent to kill the family to have Ange inherit the entire fortune (and, by proxy, her family)

>>5726877
Why? The context is that Kinzo is not included, and Beatrice even specifies that in her next red.

Going as far to say this is a logic error because of your own interpretation is laughable. It's the same as saying Battler's red confirmed that Kinzo's corpse was in the cousins room in episode 6.

>>5726869
'I shall say more with the red! When the five other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room!'

If that's the case, why does Beatrice specifically exclude Kinzo in this red truth, which comes after the gunshot truth?

>>5726872
I WILL FIGHT YOU TO THE VERY END, PONY THEORY!

TO THE VERY END!

>>5726880
O ye of little faith. I forgive you, anonymous. I will always be by your side.

>>5726917
She's just reminding you of the context, that's why. Too bad it had the opposite effect and caused this kind of reasoning.

>>5726900

Because in Episode 6 there is a clear exception made, in the conversation that leads into that Red Truth, and in the Red Truth your referring to, another specific exception is made to make clear that Kinzo is exempt.

If she could have Ignored Kinzo in the episode 4 red text, she wouldn't have needed to mention him in that Red Truth in the first place.

Red Truth is tricky, but I'm still considering the possibility that this may be foreshadowing something.

>>5726900
I don't think it's about context. If anything, it proves that 'wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal' doesn't mean 'they had wounds that killed them which looked like gunshot wounds' but rather 'it looked like they were killed by gunshot wounds'

>>5726953
The context has already been established in this case for Battler. All of Beato's red here is a counter to Battler's blue. Of course he wasn't saying Kinzo died of gas.

>>5726965

Alright, alright. I accept that it might allow for that exception.

It doesn't mean I'm wrong either, and I'm allowed to think that it's out of place.

>>5726881
The cigarette butt, more specifically, why Hideyoshi was providing an alibi for Eva. In light of Rosa and Maria's murders, it becomes a very realistic scenario that Hideyoshi and Eva are threatening the lives of her son.

I imagine when you have people pointing guns at each other and accusing the other of being a murderer of accomplice to, emotions run high and things can happen.

Or maybe Hideyoshi shot first.


>>5726928
It's a rather strange point to be 'addressing the context', after you say something in red that would apply to one of those. Clearly she didn't forget, as she removed Kinzo from one red truth statement not even two sentences later.

>>5726973
Sure you're allowed to. But saying it confirms his cause of death without a doubt is out of the question.

>>5726975
But let me amend this by saying 'the five other than Kinzo' could've just been a quick way to refer to Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, Genji and Kumasawa and I don't necessarily believe Kinzo was murdered.

>>5726975
No, she just confirms who the all she is referring to is.

>>5727108
Jessitrice confirmed.

>>5727129

>screenshot from the anime

>>5727129
Except they were trying to stop Battler from saying too much because Beatrice was 'present', and Jessica was not there.

>>5727163
I think you mean screenshots.

>>5726162
>>5726120

So... If i give Shkanontrice the ribbon I had at the beginning of the 1st chapter she'll realize i do remember and we get to frolick together in a field of sunflowers?

>>5727170
That's the joke.

>>5727157
You know, this makes it seem like Jessica got beat up because of said group of jealous girls. I'm guessing Beatrice must try to chop off that hair and those boobs of Jessica's all the time because Battler said he likes women with them.

Why don't you, /jp/?

Why can Shannon remember so clearly here but not with George in episode 6?

>>5727234
The part that I don't get is how he could have 'forgotten' about Beatrices self when he clearly remembers Shannon after talking a little bit. My biggest doubt in Shkanontrice is that Battler shows he remembers Shannon to her, yet Beatrice thinks she was forgotten completely. This is the entire reason I think it's actually Kanontrice, as Kanon is the only character that fits with the not knowing part.

>>5727298
Kanon wasn't even working three years ago. You have to say he was Shannon so he's even working at that time. Beatrice knows when she appears before Battler that he won't remember someone called 'Beatrice'. She's just drawing on his memories for Shannon. But he said his ideal woman was just like her, and now he's not even showing her the slightest bit of love except jokingly saying he loves her so he can kill her for the test. Then he doesn't remember what he did wrong, the sin. He may remember his relationship with Shannon, but he doesn't view him not coming back as a big deal. As it's said in episode 6, the sin is judged by the one sinned against.

Also in episode 4, that scene on the beach would have never happened since everything takes place in a day.

>>5727343
I think he means the Kanon personality is the same as the Beatrice personality, not that Kanon is another body who is Beatrice.

>>5727482
Maybe, someone posted this theory the other day. The main problem I see is that Kanon and Beatrice are almost polar opposites. If Kanon is already a split personality of Shannon, why not have a third personality when there's this drastic a change? It also raises the question of why Kanon would cross-dress at all. Instead, wouldn't Kanontrice the same clothes as Shannon, or maybe slightly different clothes, yet not a disguise, just so she feels a little individual? I can only think of the Kanon identity being a cover for the personality so she can live a more normal life until Battler returns. Also, it raises some issues with episodes 2 and 4, but these could be smoothed out.

Episode 1: the red makes it impossible for Kanon to have died, so he faked his death, then Beatrice in the dress appears before the cousins.
Episode 2: Kanon dies in Jessica's room early in the episode, but 'Beatrice' keeps appearing, like to Shannon and the rest in the closed room and then to Battler at the end, though that scene is a bit unreliable. It makes little sense for Shannon, George and Gohda all to die in that room if Beatrice is already dead, unless perhaps it was Jessica getting revenge on Shannon who tried to kill her earlier, she is often theorized to be alive because of the corpse thing.
Episode 4: Kanon is the 9th victim, yet by this theory Kanontrice would appear before Battler when most people seem to be dead, when in reality, at least 7 people are still alive, which is quite, especially when Gohda and Kumasawa appear to have been killed.

>>5727585
Episode 4 could almost work if you think about who is hinted to Battler is dead by that point.

If you believe Jessica and Kyrie's phonecalls (hah) that's two people. George and Maria sent for their tests is two more. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Battler also saw George's corpse. He sees Kumasawa and Gohda, two more. Then when Beatrice talks to him, she tells Battler to be at ease because the goats (gohda), teacher (kumasawa), demon butlers (genji), demon who is my close friend (jessica) aren't here. If you also assume the Shannon personality is dead at that point, it's 8 people all up. It's a little rough, I know.

>>5727585

Shkanontrice just doesn't work properly with the red, you have to assume the red is very inconsistent and that Beatrice hardly ever counts as a person.

Shkanon however with Kanon being Beatrice as well works. Since "personality" = "people", there are 17 people all up. Since Erika doesn't exist, it's still 17 people with or without her. This works with all the red.

>>5727697
(Also, we see Beatrice's 'mother' splitting her soul into two but never into three, so Kanon's origin is a mystery)

Beatrice is Battler's ideal, and Jessica is like a female Battler. Wouldn't it make sense that Jessica would love a male version of Beatrice? That might be why Beatrice acts as Kanon. Although Kanon is far from a male Beatrice.

Here's the biggest problem, if both Shannon and Kanon count yet are the same person then Beatrice would add to that number also. Because this doesn't happen that means one of them is actually Beatrice going by a different name or Shkanon is wrong and they both possess their own body. That said, Shannon is most definitely the one less connected with Beatrice.

>>5727776
Change some of the gain of confidence into gain of arrogance. Half the time he just thinks he's better than the others, nothing to do with being assured to win.

>>5727802
Shkanon being wrong entirely just doesn't make sense with episode 6. I know plenty of other people say the opposite, but whatever. This might explain why Kanon is the zero on the roulette in a way. Shannon and Beatrice make up the noir and rouge, that's almost the whole roulette, but Kanon is a small fragment, 00, that exists as a part of Beatrice? Still, it doesn't much explain how he can act against Beatrice, unless there's an internal struggle of principals that doesn't spread over more than one personality. We have seen this in Umineko. Maria, Jessica and Eva all have alternate 'personalities', but they still don't count as such according to the red. So like Jessica has her school self and her home self, Kanon might have his usual self and his self that waits for Battler. It still gets a bit confusing when it comes to the episode 2 scenes. Beatrice is constantly egging Shannon on, but Kanon is pulling her the other way. Still, the reality is that by episode 6 it seems like we have 3 personalities that make up one human, but only two of these personalities are shown being created.

I know that this is slightly off-topic, but when was an explosion mentioned in EP6. I've noticed people talking about it (and it's in TIPS), but I don't remember reading it anywhere (I must've skipped over it somehow).

>>5727887
Execute Erika in the TIPS. Ryu07 has also talked about it in interviews.

Maria is always treating Kanon as Beatrice so I don't see why not.

>>5727867
I think what it's getting at is that there never was a Kanon fragment in the first place. It was all fabrication to confuse meta-Battler, trying to see if he recognizes her original self.(because Kanon is probably what Shkanontrice looks like without the fake boobs, make up, and wig)

>>5727922
She would look like Shannon without all that though. Except I guess Shannon pads too.

So, who's the missing person in the mystery? If Shkanontrice is true, then her split personalities can't count as separate people. Why? Because then we'd have 18 people on the island, which is impossible. We can only have 17.

But seeing as how Kanon is now a delusion of Shannon, we're left with this unexplainable gap. A literal Person X.

>>5727937
See what we've been discussing.

>>5727895
Couldn't "explosion" just relate to the explosive series of murders, though? How do we know that it's actually a physical combustion deal?

>>5727948
Because the mansion is replaced with a hole in the ground 12 years later?

>>5726810

Hey, you got a trip?

>>5727948
That's a pretty liberal interpretation, and Ryu07 said so in interviews. This is when people bring up him saying Erika is a good girl in interviews, though.

>>5727937
Or the daughter of Beatrice-the-second (Ms. RosaRocks) could've dressed up as Shanon sometimes, allowing her to interact with Battler, Maria and friends. That way you don't need to deal with some bullshit three-split personality disorder.

>>5727965
That way you ignore episode 6 and go back to episode 4 territory.

What was with this line, by the way? Was it a mis-translation? I mean, I know that there were two battlers, but...

>>5728016
It also says in that same scene that all of them except Battler had been.

>>5727992
Beatrice doesn't need to be on the island, though, does she? I just thought it would explain Beato's past/motivations/such, not the actual murders on the island.

>>5727965
>That way you don't need to deal with some bullshit three-split personality disorder.
The problem is that 3 don't match up in ANY possible way. Either one of the 3 is a fake just there to fuck with meta-Battler, or Shkanon is wrong and Erika never was on the island. Either way we do know that Kanon is Beatrice one way or the other.

>>5728023
All but battler had been what? They found his corpse, I thought.

well while were on the topic of mistranslations...

>>5728039
Shannon and Kanon and Beatrice being separate people doesn't make sense with the love trial. No matter what way they're arranged logically, they have to be one person. At least this Sh(Kanontrice) theory removes the bullshit of Shannon and Kanon both being dead yet Beatrice being up and about, which is equivalent to person X.

>>5728062
That was during the time Battler left the family roster, so Eva just excluded him.

>>5728033
Everything points to whoever Beatrice is in only having 2 personalities. Shkanontrice is wrong in this case.

>>5728067
Why exactly can't ShaKanon be true, while Beato remains a seperate entitity, though? I mean, she doesn't even have to be on the island at the time of the murder (but could, if Erika was dead before the game started).

...I guess the whole love-trial thing does elude that all three are the same person, but that's just too much bullshit to handle. I'd much prefer something like "Beato periodically disguised herself as Shanon" or what have you.

>>5728067

Actually, There's one theory where it works AND they don't have to be the same person.

>>5728096
How does this make sense with Beato being a partial soul created by whoever her 'mother' is? The traditional pony theory has Beatrice being her own person. That's great and all, but the stuff of shipper fantasy, and is wrong. If Beatrice is simply Beatrice III the daughter of Beatrice II, then there's no need for her to create another personality inside herself called Beatrice.

>>5728111
I'd like to hear that.

>>5728113
I thought she created the other Beatrice as Battler's ideal woman.

>>5728143
She did, and she did so because she could no longer love Battler and wanted to pursue her own dreams. This points towards Beatrice's 'mother' having her own love interest. I thought we had moved past all this person X nonsense, anyway. One of the first assumptions Battler made when reaching for the truth in episode 5 is that there wasn't a mystery person form the very beginning.

>>5728120

"First, let me say that the love contest HAD to have had a purpose. Ryu and Battler did not write it just to troll us.

So let's first look at how Shkanontrice fits it:

As we know, for one couple to prevail, two couples must be eliminated. Why? Well, let's see, using a couple of if;then statements.

-IF Battler/Beato, THEN Shannon/George and Kanon/Jessica are eliminated. Shkanontrice needs to be Beato for Battler.
-IF Shannon/George, THEN Kanon/Jessica and Battler/Beato are eliminated. Shkanontrice needs to be Shannon for George.
-IF Kanon/Jessica, THEN Shannon/George and Battler/Beato are eliminated. Shkanontrice needs to be Kanon for Jessica.

Fits rather nicely, right?

WRONG! HOW NAIVE!

Let's run with what I quoted. Beatrice needs a Kinzo. Let's extend it; Kinzo needs a Beatrice. Let's extend it further. For some reason, the island requires that a Kinzo and a Beatrice both exist. Don't ask why. I don't know.

So, Jessica is Beatrice, Kanon is Kinzo. Where does the leave Battler? Well, I've concluded that Shannon's Beatrice DOES NOT equal Battler's Beato. The combined antics/legends/tales that Kanzo and Shannontrice cause "create" Beato, whom Battler is in love with!

How does this apply to the love duel? Let's use if;thens again!"

Continued.

"-IF Battler/Beato, THEN Shannon/George and Kanon/Jessica are eliminated. In order for "Beato" to exist, Kanon and Shannon must continue to be Kinzo and Beatrice, respectively.

-IF Shannon/George, THEN Kanon/Jessica and Battler/Beato are eliminated. "Beato" cannot exist because Shannon no longer makes up half of what Battler loves about her, and Kanon cannot love because he's now forced to be both Beatrice and Kinzo (remember, the island requires it!)

-IF Kanon/Jessica, THEN Shannon/George and Battler/Beato are eliminated. "Beato" cannot exist because Kanon no longer makes up half of what Battler loves about her, and Shannon cannot love because she's now forced to be both Beatrice and Kinzo (remember, the island requires it!)

But! Something was wrong about the Love Duel! It said only one couple could survive, destroying the other two, and looking at the information above, that's exactly what it did!

HOWEVER! You may notice that, in fact, TWO couples found love. That's right, both Battler/Beato AND Shannon/George happened by the end? Why? A miracle occurred!

That's right, folks! As Kanon was trapped in his closet of despair, he lost the love duel! Instantly, he knew that he had to take over the Beatrice title, along with his Kinzo title! No more room for Kanon! The miracle, though, was that somehow Kanon perfectly imitated Shannon's Beatrice, be it by a "sibling" bond, or just from years of watching her! Thus, having Shannontrice and Kanzo in him at once, he became Battler's Beato, crashing the wedding and saving the day!"

>>5728160
what

>>5728157
But a character such as the Daughter of RosaRock Beatrice wouldn't be an unknown person X, as she had been offhandedly revealed in Episode 3, and could be disgusing herself as Shanon. Even if she wasn't on the island at the time, she still could've set up the island-nuker, thereby murdering them all anyway.

>>5728160
>Well, I've concluded that Shannon's Beatrice DOES NOT equal Battler's Beato.

Hasn't that always been obvious?

I don't even understand the rest of the theory at all.

>>5726684
>>5726684
>>5726684

>>5728207

Simple. Rokkenjima needs a ruler of the night and daily simaltaneously. So, Shannon and Kanon. Kanon being Kinzo has it's own set of evidence.

>>5728209

foreshadowing. battler does it a lot.

>>5728160
>>5728166
That's a bull cockamamie theory, and if it happened I'd be much glad because it's so much better than the crap that seems likely.

>>5728279

Rokkenjima's whole 'ruler of the day' and 'ruler of the night' thing is kinda... blatantly stated.

Man, it sucks to be Jessica. She has a batshit insane mother, a totally incompetent father, has to marry some douchebag that said idiot parents will pick, but at least she has her best friend Shannon.

Oh wait, her best friend Shannon is actually the person she is attracted to, but who cares about that, at least- Oh wait, nevermind, Shannon also is planning to kill her.

Why? Well, Shannon developed a crazy persona that is basically based on her, but somehow she forgot the whole "not being a douche" aspect.

And why is Shannon planning to kill her? Simple, she has a crush on their old friend, Battler. Obviously, Battler deserves to live and not her, because he's obviously closer to Shannon than Jessica was... oh wait, no he wasn't.

I mean really, goddamn it Jessica's life sucks. Out of ALL the characters, she has the most motives to kill the fuck out of everyone, and yet she doesn't, because she's not a jerk.


She was just looking forward to a weekend of shooting the breeze with an old friend, but because her best friend is such a cunt, her life got cut short.

>>5728223
Delicious reverse trap.

>>5728301

Jessica has good parents

The Kanon personality being the same as the Beatrice personality makes sense when you consider the answer to the closed room was supposed to be part of Beato's heart. The trick she used was Shkanon, but that doesn't necessarily imply there's a -trice on the end there and may not expose anything at all. If it's really central to her heart, then it makes sense. It also makes sense how Kanon was able to have Beato "awaken".

>>5728301
>And yet she doesn't
If Erika doesn't exist is true, then yes she does. She kills even her own mother and her cute little cousin.

>>5728316
If by "good", you mean a dangerously delusional overzealous nutjob murderer and a stupid as fuck emotionally detached buisnessman, then yes, her parents are good.

And these are just the things the novel tells us BLATANTLY about Natsuhi and Krauss.

>>5728334
Why does Erika not existing have us revert to Jessica? The dress?

Hell Erika even says how much she dislikes Jessica. T

>>5728324
Remember that scene in the beggining of episode 6 where Kanon and Shannon are discussing love, and Kanon states "even I want to love...", well something along those lines might/should have happened just before scene in pic in episode 1. Remember that Kanon is directing this thought at Battler here.

>>5728351

They still love her and treat her well. She doesn't have a bad life.

>>5728301
She'll be the moeblob of episode 7, don't you worry. She might even get to survive the incident in the real world if she's lucky.

Kanon... you idiot! Why couldn't... you say it clearly? Your riddles....were too twisted! And now I've finally reached the depths... no, the peak of mount purgatory, but it's too late! What the hell... Kanon... don't set a time limit on this game you're so proud of! Shit... it's not you who's been endlessly torturing! It's me!

>>5728364
According to the red, if Erika is just someone else then it's Genji or Jessica.

>>5728370
How can you say that like it is a fact? From what we do know, she will have to marry someone they appoint, and we've also seen how crazy Natsuhi can be for honor. Like, imagine someone like THAT as your mother.

I'm not suggesting that she's kept in a rape dungeon or something, but I am suggesting that she would get the fuck outta dodge if she could.

>>5728385

I could almost accept Kanontrice. He was awesome in ep. 6. Shanon is still a screwy bitch though.

>>5728401
Same faggot, Kanon isn't noble in the slightest. At first she hits on George because she feels rejected, but then she went for Jessica because Jessica is a female Battler, but her love of the cock left her wanting the real mccoy.

>>5728395

Except she doesn't want to get outta dodge. She wants her father to be head of the family and is very proud of that. I don't think she has the perfect life, but I do think her parents are well meaning and pretty much always shown in a sympathetic light. I wouldn't mind Natsuhi being my mom either.

You know, when you think about it, Shkanon is definitely one of those twisted logic arguments, like small bombs.

>>5728367
>implying I'm into Battler
>implying I wasn't talking about my love for Jessica
>implying that just because I'm a persona of some crazy bitch I still don't wanna grab those tits and lick those thighs

>>5728433
Enjoy your closet

>>5728433
I WOULD MIND. I VERY MUCH WOULD MIND.

>>5728434
Anything goes in the witch's game.

>>5728433
Alright, take your pick, you can go off the cliff or into the damn closet.

>>5728439

I will

>>5728433
Shannon is well meaning if you really THINK about it, it doesn't mean her actions aren't fucking retarded and cause unbearable misery.

Once again, I'm not saying they're nazis or something, but I do gotta respect Jessica for not being a dick in spite of her life.

>>5728453
DAMN IT NATSUHI
SEE, YOU PUT YOUR DAUGHTER INTO A CLOSET, YOU SHOULDN'T BE TOO SHOCKED WHEN SHE COMES OUT

Umineko - Where the nicest and most rational person is a lesbian, in Japan, in the 1980's.

Nyeh, that's showbiz.

>>5728442

you are just upset you didn't get to be her kid

>>5728480
NO I'M RATHER UPSET THAT I'M DEAD.
THE WHOLE "DEAD" THING DOESN'T REALLY FLOW WELL WITH ME.

alright, answer this for me. who hides all the firearms in ep4?

>>5728492

>>5728492
I know what you mean, brother.

>>5728493

its had me wondering for a while too where everyone got the weapons from, it was never stated unless i forgot

werent they in kinzos study? i find it hard to believe they just went in that easy in all the eps

>>5728364
Well of course, personalities inside a same individue hates themselves sometimes.
i don't have a clue who might be erika, if she don't exist

>>5728160
>So, Jessica is Beatrice, Kanon is Kinzo
Wait, what? What Beatrice would Jessica be? Kanon is Kinzo? Huh? You're going to have to explain this particular bit a bit better.

Nanjo is the culprit. He was never a fat pig.

Someone say something stupid so I can post a screen cap of Erika call them a moron.

>>5728367
Here it is. I interpreted that scene in EP1 as referring to Kanon's general anti-social nature. Even though Battler had been nice to him, he was unable to accept it; same with Jessica's confession.

>>5728559
I have to say, Kanon didn't get shit in episode 6.

CONGRATS KANON YOU GET TO SERVE US AS A HUMAN LOLOLOLOL

Thanks Battler. Thanks a bunch.

>>5728548
Shkanontrice isn't real.

>>5728548
Train theory is truth.

>>5728559

That makes more sense than the alternative

>>5728586
You know, in a way you're right.

There really is just one person. Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice.... they're all lies.

Lies that shall be smashed, and the woman left behind the shattered facade will come to realize that the hell she is in is of her own design.

>>The Whydunit: Love Battles and that her first love forgot her.

Too bad the why cannot be about a revenge.

>>5728601
The why is fucking retarded, and makes me really hope the whore gets what is coming to her.

>>5728620
tHis can't be the why. Read ep6 again.
Idc about Shkannnontrice even if it is the worse thing ever, but a "lulz revenge because of Battler" is impossible.
By the way yes, if this was true, she would deserve to die. Horribly.

>>5728620
She's going to marry George.
Nothing worse than that.

>>5728620
tHis can't be the why. Read ep5 again.
Idc about Shkannnontrice even if it is the worse thing ever, but a "lulz revenge because of Battler" is impossible.
By the way yes, if this was true, she would deserve to die. Horribly.

>>5728599

I agree

>>5728601
You could interpret it in a way that isn't revenge-related. If Shkanontrice still loves Battler, she could be trying to make him "remember" and not really have any revenge in mind.

I still hate it either way though.

>>5728620

It's funny people think that's all there is to it even after Battler bawws and Ange even mentions there has to be something that caused Battler to change his perception of Beato after he found out the truth.

>>5728651
And then she kills him in the end because she wants to go in the golden land with him, which mean that she is totally crazy and even worse than Maria, a 9 years old.
It is even worse and more retarded than a simple revenge.

Natsuhi is the culprit.
Careful planning, ordering servants.
Hates Ushiromiya family
This is undeniable truth.

>>5728640
See, the worst part is, I DON'T think that she is doing it for revenge.

What I do think, is relevant to Shannon and Kanon's duel. Pretty much, they think that killing everyone is a GOOD thing.

So her motives are not revenge based, they just that they have absolutely no grounding in reality whatsoever.

>>5728676

Never

>>5728670
You cannot forgive her just because of this because you have no LOVE.
(And having less love than Ange is quite something)

I bet at the end of it all no family member did it and Ryukishi07 gives some bullshit speech about the value of family bonds.

>>5728674
It also means that she doesn't give a shit about anyone besides herself and Battler.

Shkanontrice makes Beatrice into a selfish cunt.
A sharp contrast to what we thought after episode 5.

>>5728676
Krauss is the culprit.
Punching people. Big and strong.
Needs money for Krauss land.

>>5728693

Well, I don't think Battler found out she was really just a crazy ass bitch killing people randomly and then decided to just go fall completely in love with her. But who knows. I wouldn't put it past R07. Though Shkanontrice =/= Beato to me anyway.

>>5728693
Hey, uh, question, when Shannon ventilated Jessica's head after making her lie to her good friend, where was the LOVE?

When Shannon used a shovel or some other crude implement to brutally and savagely slaughter 6 people, where was the love?

When Shannon killed everyone, condemning Eva to a life of not ONLY losing her son and husband, but being BLAMED for it, and hated by her only surviving relative, where was the LOVE?

Love is fucking over-rated.

>>5728670
True. I've been keeping that in mind the whole while. Hopefully, whatever Battler figured out about Beato really is as opinion-changing as it should be. I can't imagine what it could be though. It would probably mean most of the whydunits associated with Shkanontrice are shit, and there's something we've all missed.

If it's just 'hurr durr, you forgot me, now I kill everyone,' then fuck it.

>>5728719
If Shkanontrice is the culprit, you'll be hard pressed to find a motive that makes sense and doesn't have her be a complete cunt.

>>5728718

You sound bitter

Beatrice isn't killing people, she just has them fake deaths for her game to mess with Battler. It's the fucking explosion at the end that is the real question as to what did Battler do 6 years ago to make it happen.

>>5728737
That's why I haven't been able to accept it yet. Battler apparently figured everything out, and he accepted her reason for slaughtering his family. Featherine and Ange even say Battler probably wouldn't have forgiven her if it wasn't a decent reason.

But if Shkanontrice is the culprit, what non-shit reason could there be?

>>5728718
I know, bro, I know. I was having fun of people saying this, here.
>>5728753
Except that some people are declared death before the explosion.

>>5728757
lol she have a mental disease it's not her fault poor thing lol

>>5726120
explosion?

You faggots seem to be forgetting that it starts as a game by Beatrice and that someone else is the one running around taking advantage of this game and really killing people.

>>5728757

it might not have to be exclusive to whatever happened to her, it would have to be something about the ushiromiya family in general

all the secrets that have been kept from battler, other fucked up shit we don't even know yet, etc.

i hate shkanontrice but i think that's where the story might be going

>>5728757

everyone is going to die anyway from the explosion, so it's not like it matters if they die before

>>5728778
>>5728781
I can accept these.

>>5728781

also to add it could just be battler's sin could just be his "incompetence" or carelessness towards these things that have been going on who knows

>>5728807
He accidentally armed Kinzo's secret nuke with a timer set to go off in about 6 years.

>>5728737
>>5728719

The solution is simple. Beatrice is Innocent. She's an accompliced forced to set up closed rooms.

It took Ryukishi a long time to tell Sayaka Ohara the true plot, right? It must be better than Shkanon.

>>5728866

what is this?

I refuse to believe that shkanontrice is the answer. Even if he explicitly states the fact, I goddamn refuse such retardation. R7 should've learnt to not pull another Higurashi on us, jesus christ.

>>5728876

I heard he told her everything about Umineko.

>>5728887

Yes, think outside the box. Shkanon is loveless! You need love!

>>5728753
People die before the explosion. Battler sees them dead, and there's Red to confirm they're dead.

>>5728887
How does brain parasites equal to a crazy maid?

>>5728904

Well, Brain Parasites equal a crazy mind...

>>5728912
Indeed, but there are no brain parasites used here. And there culprit in Higurashi was woman filled with hatred. backed-up by powerful groups, and trained assassins (which couldn't deal with children, but that's beside the point).

>>5728928

Children with a 100 years of suppressed memories (and a handful of Police Officers, and Yakuza)

But I digress.

The point is that if Shkanontrice is as people think it is then it would be much worse than Higurashi.

Which is why I think there is more to it than that.

>>5728835
>The solution is simple. Beatrice is Innocent. She's an accompliced forced to set up closed rooms.

This. The whole point of episode V was to establish that "Beatrice," whoever she is on the board, is not actually the culprit - the one masterminding the killings. He/she's an accomplice at best, and probably someone more pitiable than evil.

Also: Episode 6 states clearly that even though she's been working at the mansion for years, Shannon's still only on duty three days a week, and presumably doesn't live there.

Shakanontrice is ridiculous, but it's not impossible if you take this into account with some of the other clues.

>>5728951

another thing to keep in mind. Higurashi made it clear that Ryukushi believes that murder for any reason is not the answer.

So why would he have Battler forgive someone for being a murderer for any reason?

>>5728958
>using Higurashi to try and solve Umineko when he has said that he's probably not going to do the same kind of ending and that this kind of thinking will distract you from finding the truth

He's said multiple times that Higurashi needed to have the ending it did because it was necessary to the whole thematic of the "endless summer." Umineko on the other hand - if "Beatrice" doesn't die, I'll be surprised.

The epitaph forshadows what sort of ending we'll get.

>>5728985

Maybe. But that doesn't change the fact that Ryukushi as a person believes that Murder is never right.

My point remains.

Off-topic, but something caught my attention in episode 6 credits.
Battler is listed dead on the first twilight, and Kanon - dead on the second twilight. And we saw none of them actually die. Yeah, I know, Kanon died to make room for Shannon, but what about Battler? Did Kanon go in the room, close the lock, kill Battler and then killed himself?

>>5729044
>set the chain lock, killed Battler and then himself
My head is full of fuck in the mornings.

>>5729044
Piece Battler wasn't actually dead; it's just that the credits always follow the Gamemaster's plot, and according to that plot, Battler was "dead."

>>5729088
I don't think GM's plot can contradict the actual events. That's the point of the game.

>>5729114
Well, to help discredit it, Kinzo is listed as having died on the ninth twilight in the fourth game's credits. And we all know that isn't the case.

>>5729044
>>5729088
Reminds me of something in EP4. Ange is listed as "died in 1998," yet you can't execute her in the TIPS.

>>5729148
Maybe she faked her death, but I really doubt it.

>>5728719
>It would probably mean most of the whydunits associated with Shkanontrice are shit, and there's something we've all missed.
Then ep 6's approach seems interesting as an alternative: the murders were originally pranks set up by "Beatrice" for Battler, a murder mystery fan. Still done so she can make Battler remember and regain his love. Only along the way a third party goes around really killing them. This third party is pretending to help Shkannon and reassures her the murders are fake until it's necessary to kill her.

With that interpretation in ep6 that means Shkannon saying nothing matters because they'll wake up in the golden land is not because she knows the mansion will explode, but because she believes nobody's really dead.

>>5729114
it does. We've known since the second episode that it tends to at least lie on the order in which the deaths occured.

>>5729175
If they must use Shkanon, I hope it's something like this.

>>5729175
I don't find prank scenario ver plausible, but there are some possibilities. Perhaps the parents plan this prank each time (they only make 6 "corpses" to fit the epitaph, even if a couple or two more people are on it), Shannon is the one offering it, as a joke on Battler. They scatter around like they did in Ep6, and that's when the murderer goes around and kills them one by one. Would explain how he/she is able to kill six adult people at the same time. The culprit later moves the corpses to someplace else, like the shed. A clean shot in the forhead + some bag and there's no blood involved. Of course there's an accomplice (maybe more than one), who helps moving the corpses. In case of the second episode, Rosa just declined to participate and left, and so she wasn't killed. In the third episode, Shannon proposed the idea to the servants. In the fourth, she didn't propose it at all, or the murderer started his shit before this opportunity arised.
The murders occur late at night, perhaps the murderer was the one supposed to run around and scare people with the fake murders, so the victims didn't expect anything from him and that's why nobody noticed the victims till morning.

Episode 5 confirmed that "Beatrice" is in control of Kinzo's gold and that the Ushiromiyas solving the epitaph doesn't benefit her in any way. Assuming "Beatrice" is actually Shannon, what do you think is a plausible scenario in that she could have come into possession of it, and how would you all suppose that this ties in with what we know about her?

Possible starting point: Kanon is said to have begun working at the mansion two years ago, which is also the same time at that the portrait was hung up.

>>5729416
He started working three years ago.

>>5729416
Really?

>>5729416
But he started working three years ago.
Also, the most obvious way would be for "Beatrice", whoever she is, to be the descendant of the original Beatrice to whom the gold belonged in the first place. Alternatively, the one who gets the gold by Kinzo's last will, but I'm not sure what could she do to earn it.

>>5729012
>Maybe. But that doesn't change the fact that Ryukushi as a person believes that Murder is never right.

Even so, he believes in forgiveness. Even though Takano committed countless brutal massacres in some hundred kakeras, she was forgiven at the end.

Personally, I believe even forgiveness has a limit, but I think R07 thinks differently.

>>5729517
Well, no wonder they have this Yasukuni Shrine thing in Japan.

So, after EP6 Kanontrice is completely overruled:
a) The one who 'created' Beatrice is shown with Battler telling them who his ideal type girl is.
b) Kanon and Battler didn't meet until 1986

Either that or Beatrice was created on 1986, October 4th.

>>5729620
If Kannon and Shannon are the same person, there's no problem, since Battler did know her six years ago. Shannon's memories are Kanon's memories.

>>5729667
And the original question still stays. What caused the creation (or summoning from the depths of subcounsciousness) of 'Kanon'.

EP7 confirmed for Svorevsky appearance on the fantasy side

>>5729688
Technically things like this can happen without a reason, though that obviously won't be the case in umineko - just saying though.

>>5729688
Kanon really existed and was Shannon's brother or best pal, had an accident involving Beatrice's portrait, either died or left the island because of it. Because Kanon had helped Shannon cope with her crappy job, and/or because the family wanted to hide the incident (after all, they'd already had a servant death in the past, the one that was pushed off a cliff by Natsuhi, all that would start to look fishy), she took over Kanon's role as well as his persona.

Extra fun mode, providing a real big incentive for hiding the incident: Natsuhi pushed Kanon down the stairs because he was getting too close to Jessica. We already know how protective of Krauss' line she is.

Extra fucked up mode: it's the other way round, Shannon was, in the same fashion, killed or nearly killed by Eva to "protect" George, and Kanon took over the other persona. But that means Kanon knew about Shannon's crush on Battler and was fucked up enough to adopt that as part of the persona too, and that also means George, who knows Shkannon is a double person, doesn't care that it's really a guy. Extra kinky!

>>a) The one who 'created' Beatrice is shown with Battler telling them who his ideal type girl is


...where is this supposed to be a problem? Seriously, try to use your imagination a little, Kanon being Beatrice works just as well as Shannon with this

>>5729965
Do you remember George's flashback? Remember who was talking to Battler?

How dense are you?

>>5729986
And? It doesn't change the fact that Kanontrice is still possible after that, Clearly. The fact that he was takling about a girl don't change anything here.
But yeah, Battler only have the right to talk to one person.

>>5729688
>what created Kanon

Frustration with her job. It's something I noticed during episode 2, but a lot of the scenes where Kanon and Shannon are talking are reminiscent of Gollum conversing with Smeagol, specifically the parts where Kanon conveniently after Shannon's been scolded and criticizes the person who scolded her. Just like "Beatrice" is an outlet for her unrequited love (by pushing it all onto "Beatrice," she can start anew with someone else) Kanon is an outlet for her resentment, whose existence allows Shannon to be free from those emotions. Think Piccolo and Kami.

Something else to consider - is Shannon ever shown as crying or becoming angry at any point in the story? I don't think she even has a sprite for those...

Bonus points for the scene in episode 2 where Kanon shows up after Gohda scolds Shannon and starts going on a rant about how awful he is. When Genji turns to address Shannon again, Kanon's vanished.

>>5729986
We were told that Kanon was part of the very same orphanage as Shannon(whom Kanon was a close friend of at the time) that was very well connected with the mansion. It's not that far of a stretch to assume Kanon didn't visit the mansion prior to working there. Also it was revealed that Battler played with basically ALL of the girls around his age at the mansion.

>>5730006
The problem is Battler didn't meet Kanon before 86, Battler says as much at one point. So the only way Kanon can have had this conversation is if he's also Shannon.

>>5730091
I don't know, maybe that's covered from all the foreshadowing saying how Battler forgot about Beatrice's original self.

>>5730128
That matches Shannon more adequately though, as Battler indeed forgot most of what he'd said to her years prior.

>>5730055
I believe Shannon breaks down and cries when in episode 2 Rosa suspects her. Though she has no sprite for it, a lot of people don't have crying sprites

>>5730546
That deceiving slut... but Rosa didn't fell for her act.

I'm waiting for my Rosa Musou: The Revenge on EP8.

"I may have 99 problems, but a crazy bitch ain't one."

FUCK YEAH

Are you guys really so obsessed with Shkanontrice or are you just trying to act retarded?

>>5730586
Shkanontrice is an important part of Beatrice's heart. Or should I say Sh(Kanontrice)?

>>5730586
We just accept the truth as it is handed to us.

>>5730593
>>5730597
If Shannon and Kanon are so important to the story, then why are they such shitty and boring characters?

>>5730608
Because Ryukishi forgot how to write after Higurashi.

>>5730608
They're pretty important in episode 6.
They are also a big focus in episode 2.
Kanon has always been suspected.

It's not like they're underdeveloped.

>>5730615

>Because Ryukishiwas forced to take over writing once BT died

fix

Erika doesn't exist, Shkanontrice isn't needed.

>>5730652
All the characters don't exist, try to actually understand Umineko for once.

>>5730652
Needed for what? This whole notion of something being "needed" or not is stupid. Was Kinzo's death really needed? Not really, it didn't allow for any person X.

You might be able to make a "solution" for Umineko without "needing" to use any popular theory, but that doesn't make it the truth. This notion of something being "needed" usually comes from only thinking about the red truth. If you think about the whole episodes themselves, episode 6 isn't explained by just Erika not existing. That doesn't explain the Zepar and Furfur dilemma at all.