/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>5276999
>>And now for a thread about something other than Touhou.
>>Shitty Umineko theory thread
Get out.

>>5277013
yes because "ITT: If Touhous had ethnicity." is an excellent thread

>>5277013
/jp/ - TOUHOU ONRY

>>5277018
>>5277019
Better than this at least.

magic, thread over

>>5277018
Better than a thread of you circlejerk with Nack and Anonymous.

Tiny bombs

Even Umineko theory thread are better than endless Touhou threads.

>>5277028
indeed
anything else?

The thread is now about the downfalls of Umineko.
Where did it go wrong?

Rosa is really Genji and did it with a magic missile.

The problem might not be with Erika's perspective, but the one telling the story at the time.

>>5277038
I refuse to say that Umineko has declined before we have seen a resolution to it.

>Erika would have to be pants-on-head retarded
Yes, she would. She's also be known to omit facts to suit her argument. Remember, EP5 was all about her framing Natsuhi for the murders, rather than make a rational case against anyone else.

>>5277054
Doesn't change the fact that she saw Kanon and Shannon and recognized them as two separate people.

>>5277038

Ryu07 writes a detective mystery murder story. He has a problem though - how to make it certain that the entire internet, an entity as vast as it is obsessive, cannot solve it in days? He decides to get clever and battle this threat by throwing a lying narrator in the reader's way.

This turns out to be a grave miscalculation. People soon realize they cannot trust anything they read, and start up cooking harebrained theories that simply ignore the most of his work. So as a measure to fix this, he introduces red text. Now there is a body of unalienable truths for the reader to work with, and if any further idiocy would pop up, all he would need to do is shoot it down with more red. It works for a while.

But he decides to get clever again and uses red text in a dishonest, manipulative way. He probably feels a bit good about himself for a while. But then all the idiocy returns, and this time the red text is powerless against them. The theorists have learned that they should read the red text like the devil reads the bible, looking for any loophole no matter how assbrained. Ryu07 even encourages this sort of behavior by introducing bullshit like "Kinzo is a title that can be moved from person to person", which was soon extrapolated to mean, in effect, "names no longer mean anything". And now we have arrived at a spot where the major theories only make sense if even the detectives themselves are out to trick the readers and everything is said, and heard, in bad faith, down to definitions of words like "person". It's like a mystery written by Clinton during his congressional hearings: "define 'is'".

Lesson to learn, Ryu07: STOP TRYING TO BE CLEVER YOU FUCKING MORON.

No matter what right now, it's fucking obvious that the answer will be disappointing.

I'm still holding onto the hope that it's something that's not incredibly stupid (like Shkanontrice). What I expect is something that's logical, but absurdly complicated - this would explain why it took two hours for Ryu07 to explain the solution to one of the seiyuus.

>>5277094
More like STOP WRITING, AND WHILE YOURE AT IT FOR FUCKS SAKE STOP DRAWING THOSE HAM PEOPLE YOU THINK ARE KAWAII.

>>5277143
It may also be the fact that the Seiyu had not read the full story properly.

I saw something interesting earlier.

In episode 1, when Kanon comes through the rain to tell the cousins dinner is ready, Battler narrates as something like this: "There was a knock at the door, from the voice I could tell it was Kanon."

Now, I'm thinking. If Kanon and Shannon are the same people, that would mean Shannon would run around putting on a deeper than normal voice for Kanon and a lighter voice for Shannon.

Hummmm..

I find that strange that she/he'd be able to run around with two different voices.. But I'm not too familiar with DID or the ShKanon theory.

>>5277144
I would be extremely sad if Ryu07 stopped writing. I would not mind if he never draw a pair of hands again.

There's no detective in Episode 6, but besides that, does Erika ever see Shannon and Kanon together?

>>5277143
It is obvious at this point that there is no ending that will make the entire fanbase happy, but I hope for a semi-good ending with not too much forced logic.

>>5277165
Episode 5.

The real problem with Shkanon is the extent of idiocy that has to be maintained by the whole of the family and staff if both people are really the same person flipping a wig on and off. Battler is the only person who would be absolutely oblivious to this arrangement. Somehow George would have to be oblivious to it as well. I can't speak for Detective Erika but I am certain she would call shenanigans if it were explained to her than Shanon and Kanon are really the same one-bodied person; she's not "of the family" and has no reason to put up with its eccentricity if it would disrupt her investigation.

>>5277188
>Somehow George would have to be oblivious to it as well.

Maybe he's simply a closet homosexual.

Hi guys. Just swinging by to tell you that the mystery in Umineko is unsolvable bullshit because Japs can't write anything of depth.

>>5277224

Nice reverse psychology, Ryu07.

>>5277176
My fault, I should have worded it better. What I meant is if Erika ever sees Shannon and Kanon together in Episode 6. She's not the detective, but iirc, they're never seen together during that game from her perspective.

Just curious if what happened in Episode 5 was because of Lambda. Other than those two, a lot of character interactions were amiss that reconvened in Dawn.

Ok OP, I get your point. I don't quite believe it completely since for example Kanon can disguise himself as Shannon and other holes but I don't want this to be an entirely Shkanon thread.

Your opinion about the murderer?

Episode 5 could as well not exist - pile of confusing witch trolling.
Now what's about the 2 hour explanation thing? Some source maybe?

>>5277266

ITT: People don't realize it was all magic.

>>5277290

>ITT: People don't realize it was all magic up in this bitch.

Fucking.
Miracles.

>>5277308
how do they work?

>>5277285

Ryukishi told the solution to Umineko to somebody who worked in the anime (Beato's VA?). Supposedly it took him two hours.

Don't have a sauce, I read it here.

I find it funny how Umineko reads like Ryu's overlong jizz-encrusted love letter to Agatha Christie and Wizard of Oz, with the entire cast a bunch of huge westaboos, and westerners just /hate/ it.

Or at least talk a lot of trash about it. I tend to be pretty hard on it, even though I still like it as entertainment.

>>5277454
I absolutely love Umineko just because it is Ryu's overlong jizz-encrusted love letter to Agatha Christie and Wizard of Oz, and of course /jp/ hates it - /jp/ hates everything.

>>5277476
Different ratios for each case, and sometimes justified.

>>5277454
>and westerners just /hate/ it.
it's really just /jp/ and /a/

>Shkanon is impossible. In episode 5 when Erika calls everyone in the house together, she tells Shannon and Kanon to close the door and later
No, the narration says she told them to close the door. It's only necessary for one person to close the door, and nothing Erika says shows that she really acknowledges that the two of them are in the room.

>and later when searching for alibis mentions them both while they're standing in the EXACT same room.
Sure, she mentions them. While the narration is tricking you into believing they're in the same room.

How is this proof? Good job bringing up something from the last thread when you think nobody is going to be around to properly rebut it. Typical anti-shkanonfag, tries to win not through logic, but over-insistence of irrelevant points and constant stressing of the word retarded.

>>5277518

Actually, if Shkanon is true (and thus the solution to the closed room in Ep6) Erika can't be aware that they're the same person.

And that creates all sorts of problems...

>>5277518
The door to the parlor is a double door. It's not unusual for both of them to close it at all.

Also, what "detective's perspective"? Good luck showing the perspective of the detective when the whole episode is from 3rd person and we never see the detective's perspective at all.

How about you try finding this when we CAN see the detective's perspective, constantly? You know, in episodes 1-4, where Battler never once sees Shkanon together.

>>5277534
It creates no problems. It only creates problems when people think Meta-Erika is supposed to be proof of anything, or when people want to assume Erika has a certain level of competence even though since her introduction she has been constantly wrong and hoodwinked by simple tricks.

>>5277113
Oh god, I want Erika to violate me.

>>5277536
Is it? I only remember a set of double doors in the dining room. Besides, even supposing you're right, it being plausible for two people to close the door =/= incontrovertible proof that Shkanon is false, like this poor reasoning makes it out to be.

Didn't R07 say that there was a "big trap" in EP5? I imagine it was this:
Erika's perspective is reliable; however, we never see her perspective, we only see Battler's perspective, which is proven to be unreliable (because he saw Kinzo).

Another hint of this could be when Erika knocks Battler on his ass with Mary Sue powers... or the study fight... or many other things.

>>5277568
I think that's the trick as well. He said it was very effective, and if it is a "trap" that tricks you away from Shkanon, it was very, very effective because the theory was pretty much killed by the episode, until it was revived in episode 6.

>>5277568
I think he said that the most vital part of Land of the golden witch was in episode 5, but he never admitted all of it was in there.

>>5277543

Sigh.

Meta-Erika sees the gameboard through the perspective of Piece-Erika, correct?

In Episode 5, Piece-Erika is the detective. She gathers everyone except Kinzo into a single room. If Shannon and Kanon are the same person, she must know this fact.

Although her piece is no longer the detective in Episode 6, she should still be aware of this fact.

Why, then, is she fooled by Beato's solution to the logic error, assuming it involves Shkanon, the "truth" that Battler was trying to keep secret the whole time?

>>5277584
Trying to explain the events of the gameboard with the events of the meta-world will get you nowhere. The Erika on the gameboard is completely unaware of anything that happened in the previous game, and completely unaware of all the things in the meta-world. Come up with something more concrete. That you cannot at this point is almost proof that it's true - from episode 1 you could derive absolute proof that any two are not the same, except Shannon and Kanon.

The meta world is entirely fanciful, any kind of magical explanation could be made for this, it's irrelevant. This kind of meta-reasoning is just what people fall back on when they cannot find concrete proof, like "Why wouldn't Beato tell Battler about Shkanon when she wants her to find the truth?" It's just stupid.

>>5277518
What was the reason Ep1 validates the Shkanon theory? There are six bodies found in the storeroom - four identified as male, two as female. The number and identities of the women on the island are harder to manipulate than the men. There's enough male corpses/missing people to go around. The only way for Shannon's corpse to be mistaken is for Dr. Nanjo and the other people checking the room to be both conspirators; but, after we've gotten that far, the only way to create six corpses is for Kinzo to have died that last night and he's mixed in there somewhere. That also means his corpse is impossible to identify by appearance in the storeroom but is possible to be identified by appearance when checking the incinerator.

The way this works is that Dr. Nanjo is an accomplice; however, it also means that the other accomplices had to be people he was in contact with frequently enough to stage such a well-thought-out murder (many people to move the bodies into the storeroom before blood dried and within the time allotted.) I don't think that Dr. Nanjo is an accomplice at any point in the first game unless the mastermind is one of Krauss's family.

Erika isn't the same as Battler. She's a plot device designed to misrepresent the truth.

Hence why she accused Natsuhi of doing the crime.

And goddamn I fucking hate Shannon, crazy bitch.

>>5277616

What does Piece-Erika's knowledge have to do with anything in Episode 6? I'm not talking about how the meta-world affects the gameboard, I'm talking about how the gameboard affects the meta-world.

It's Meta-Erika who's trying to understand Beato's solution to the logic error, and she DOES have knowledge of Episode 5. She should know about Shkanon. But she doesn't. Why?

Oh, and detective's perspective =/= concrete proof. We have never had any actual, red-text confirmation that the detective has a reliable perspective.

There is no red text that suggests or even implies Shkanon. In fact, most red would, at a cursory glance, deny it.

Try again?

>>5277654
You really want me to answer your weak reasoning? Explain how Erika should know about Shkanon. Then, I will counter it. I'm assuming it's somewhere on the level of OP's completely broken reason (scratch that, I didn't realize that you actually ARE OP)

>Oh, and detective's perspective =/= concrete proof. We have never had any actual, red-text confirmation that the detective has a reliable perspective.
What we do have is confirmation that the detective may not lie from their perspective. Battler's perspective does indeed become unreliable at some points, and the generally accepted reason for this is drunkenness or panic towards the end of the game. You could argue that Battler is mentally ill and thus we have never really had a reliable perspective. He's much more reliable than Erika who has NO perspective shown, though (despite how desperately you try to cling to the 3rd-person narrator's comments as proof).

>There is no red text that suggests or even implies Shkanon. In fact, most red would, at a cursory glance, deny it.
I'm sorry, you want the red to just come out and tell you? The red can indeed seem to deny Shkanon, if you conveniently ignore the fact that it has been proven that things like "person" and "human" have been played with by the final reds in episode 6.

>>5277717
The Red Truth has applications beyond this gameboard. Confirming a truth that can apply anywhere does not mean that it applies here specifically, such is the case with using different words to mean different (or the same) things and title shifting.

>that things like "person" and "human" have been played with by the final reds in episode 6.

The fact that even people TRY to do anything at this point is what is baffling, not specific theories.

>>5277717

Yes, Erika SHOULD know about Shkanon for the OP's reasons. (I'm not him, by the way.) She has seen Shannon and Kanon together, which means that she knows that they are the same person, just like everyone else who has ever seen them both at the same time. I challenge you to come up with a decent argument against this.

As for the red text just saying it flat out... well, yes, that is its purpose. It's meant to cut down ludicrous theories.

I'd expect some red regarding Shkanon in Ep7, at least.

>>5277651
>I don't think that Dr. Nanjo is an accomplice at any point in the first game unless the mastermind is one of Krauss's family.

Nanjo is almost certainly an accomplice since he was in on hiding the death of Kinzo. he visited his room, pretended to check his health, pretended to play chess with him, etc. in all games.

>>5277817
Oh yes, it's meant to cut down ludicrous theories, and Shkanon is a theory that has existed since episode 2. So why hasn't it really been directly tackled? Probably because as "ludicrous" as you may think it is, it can't be denied, it's a truth of the game.

This is the problem with your argument, and why there is nothing to even debate here. Erika HAS NOT seen Shannon and Kanon together. This is something you consistently misunderstand. Try to work your head around it for once - a third person narrator CLAIMING that Shannon and Kanon are both with Erika IS NOT PROOF that she saw them both together. Her addressing them without any specifics that show she truly does acknowledge them as real people is irrelevant.

>>5277819
While it's true he's helping Krauss and Natsuhi to cover up Kinzo's death, it doesn't mean he's always an accomplice for other things.

>>5277867
>So why hasn't it really been directly tackled? Probably because as "ludicrous" as you may think it is, it can't be denied, it's a truth of the game.

Or perhaps because Ryu07 wants to keep something distracting people from the real truth until he's ready to quit this series for good.

If Shkanon was denied in ep 2, or 3, or any ep, it would mean that people would shrug and look for other options, possibly noticing something they had failed to since they were preoccupied with their Shkanon theory.

Understand: Ryu07 does not want people to solve Umineko. When people do solve it, it's effectively over. What he wants is to keep people wondering as long as he can, as that way he can keep selling his discs.

>>5277819

Nanjo was doing that under Natsuhi's orders.

Which doesn't mean he isn't an accomplice, of course.

>>5277867

>Probably because as "ludicrous" as you may think it is, it can't be denied, it's a truth of the game.

Or it's the ultimate red herring. Besides, you have absolutely no proof (ie. red text) as to whether or not Shkanon is a "truth of the game" at this point.

I, in turn, have no way of DISPROVING it. I can, however, point out how stupid the entire theory is.

>a third person narrator CLAIMING that Shannon and Kanon are both with Erika IS NOT PROOF that she saw them both together.

Except that Erika called everyone into the parlor. And made a point of noting that everyone was there.

Unless you're claiming that every single thing we're shown in Ep5 is a complete lie, including the things that Erika says?

>>5277893
Understand that the truth will be revealed in episode 7, we're already this close to the end. The only argument you people have against the overwhelming evidence of Shkanon is "it's a red herring, you all stopped thinking, it's so obvious it can't possibly be true." By this reasoning, any theory that does become popular must be false to you. It's nothing but an elitist ideal that somehow, Ryu07 still has a brilliant answer up his sleeves and he's fooled people with (X popular theory you don't like here).

>>5277913

I will laugh when Bern spends the first five minutes of Ep7 tearing the Shkanon theory apart.

If The Answer is Shkanon, then it's pretty much already been revealed. And yet Ryu said he'd be giving a "merciless answer" in Ep7.

He can't think that his fanbase is so stupid as to not have figured Shkanon out already, right?

Stop wasting your time guys, it's always the butler.

>Which doesn't mean he isn't an accomplice, of course.
What really needs to be worked out is who sent the money out to Nanjo and Kumasawa's families before the family meeting. Is it a final payment for their part in the Kinzo-cover-up, or is it something that they worked out themselves because they knew that something bad was going to happen and they wouldn't survive long enough to use the money themselves?

>>5277907
>I, in turn, have no way of DISPROVING it. I can, however, point out how stupid the entire theory is.
By definition, how can the theory truly be "stupid"? You want to have you cake and eat it too - when the evidence is presented to you, in vast quantities, you want to be able to say "well sure, it's so obvious, but that just proves what a great red herring it is", but on the other hand you want to say "this theory is so pants-on-head retarded that nobody could ever believe it and there is no evidence for it at all and that anyone could conceive of it is just another proof of limitless human stupidity". Or something along those lines.

>Unless you're claiming that every single thing we're shown in Ep5 is a complete lie, including the things that Erika says?
Here we go again. Erika does say something you could interpret as requesting everyone be present, or you could interpret as her simply requesting a meeting MUST be held. This rests on Erika really caring about whether the little people who she barely pays attention to at the meeting at all have any significance to her, when she's well and truly focused on Natsuhi. And this, you try to stretch into claiming everything in episode 5 is a lie.

It's a truly hypocritical argument, coming from the anti-Shkanon side - the same side that will readily claim none of episode 6 happened, because Battler was dead and Jessica was Battler / Erika was a novelty corpse being carried around / Erika didn't exist in episode 6 at all.

>>5277928
That won't happen. I'll laugh when you all throw a fit and whine for the rest of eternity about how bad Umineko was because of Shkanon, how it was completely retarded, how Ry07 is the worst writer of all time, and there was no way you were supposed to see such a retarded thing coming.

>>5277959

The problem with Shkanon isn't that it's obvious. The problem with it is that in order to work, it requires the entire cast save Battler to be either a gibbering retard or in on it.

>>5277969
Or it requires them to not particularly care about a couple servant they see, at most, one day every year.

>>5277913
>>5277893
Let me make this perfectly clear for all of you in this thread. Regardless of whether Shkanon or any other solution is true it has not bearing on the answer or who the culrpit is... at all... PERIOD. All any same person theory accomplishes is to subtract the number of suspects by one. The person who manipulates everyone to kill each other remains the same regardless of how you solve the final reds of episode 6. None of these answers for those final reds matter because they don't answer everything, and if they don't answer everything they can't be the merciless answer of episode 7 they can only be a small part of it and until it's revealed we should hold all of those theories to the highest scrutiny possible.

>>5277931
>Is it a final payment for their part in the Kinzo-cover-up, or is it something that they worked out themselves because they knew that something bad was going to happen and they wouldn't survive long enough to use the money themselves?


Probably not for Kinzo's sake, because Ange also received money. "Beatrice" sent the money ahead of time, so it doesn't make much sense if you make a deal with a group of people, and they still don't carry out their tasks accordingly. In the manner she sent them, it's almost as if she expected them to be dead..
Pic slightly related, meta-Beatrice is aware that Ange would be receiving some form of income in the future.

>>5277928
Except that Shkanon is not the answer. It's great that there's a DID meido on the island, but how is each murder performed? Who/why paints magic circles, why every Rokkenjima is so different? What was the original plan and what went wrong in Ep3 and 4? Why is there a bomb, who set it and when? What's the deal with all the Beatrices, where did Kinzo get his gold, what is Fukuin house, really, producing them DID maids, what is Battler's sin? Who sent money to victims' relatives and why, who sent letters in the bottle and why? Etc. etc. Even the people who truly think Shkanon the truth of Umineko don't\can't use it to solve the actual mysteries.

>>5277959

The theory is stupid because a) it only truly serves to get around several pieces of red text, b) every single character except Battler (and possibly Eva and Maria) would have to know about it, despite it being a SEEEECRET and c) it's very difficult to think of a logical reason WHY Shannon (or Kanon) would be changing clothes every five minutes to begin with.

When we make a theory, we have to ask ourselves this: What does this theory solve, and is it the best way of solving it?

As for Erika... well, I don't think she even existed to begin with.

2 months, only 2 months and we won't have to read all these retarded shits again.
Oh god I'll really enjoy it when the first spoilers for episode 7 will be out, it's going to be awesome, the backlash will be glorious.

>>5278009
Beatrice is killing off (claiming to, at least) Ushiromiyas and Ange is the only heir alive. Of course she'll be getting a lot of money. She's not necessarily talking about those payments here.

>>5278046
ShKanon doesn't only exist to go around the red text.
Thematically, basically the whole fucking game has been pointing to it.
Most of the symbolism you can find in Umineko has been about this one way or another.

Is this stupid? Yes it is, any mystery novel that use DID as a plot device is inherently fucking retarded.
But is this what is used in Umineko? Yes it is, sorry for you.

>>5278037

Most people I've talked to who believe in Shkanon HAVE tried to use it to solve the rest of Umineko. Chronotrig, for example.

He believes he's actually created a comprehensive solution to Umineko utilizing Shkanon as a base... and has managed to come up with an answer for all of the little mysteries you mentioned.

His theory is also more crackpot, pants-on-head-retarded than the entirety Takano's scrapbooks.

But you're correct in saying that Shkanon has no real importance as far as the overall mystery goes... so why is such a big deal made out of it by both the game and the theory's supporters?

>>5278046
>The theory is stupid because a) it only truly serves to get around several pieces of red text,
No it doesn't. Rather, this is the basis of the theories that counter it. What red text is it supposed to get around? Unless 'get around' is a derogatory term you use for any theory you don't like that explains something.

>b) every single character except Battler (and possibly Eva and Maria) would have to know about it, despite it being a SEEEECRET
Because you said so, because they care so much about these two servants who may not have even served on the same day on previous years who, when there isn't a murder going on, are probably hardly seen at all on the ONE DAY they can be seen.
>c) it's very difficult to think of a logical reason WHY Shannon (or Kanon) would be changing clothes every five minutes to begin with
You want the brains of the insane to work logically.

>What does this theory solve, and is it the best way of solving it?
No, you're basically saying "any theory is just made to get around things in convenient ways." This is the perfect philosophy for people like you who will pretend Erika doesn't even exist in games 5 and 6 for your own convenience. What you SHOULD be asking is "could this be true? Why would this be true? What impact does this being true have, what other things can I gather if I assume this is true?"

Oh well since I'm bored, let's play a little.
What are the closed rooms, or other stuffs, that are a problem to ShKanon(trice)? I'll solve them since I nice

>>5278090
Ehh..but would Ange really inherit the gold, though? In a world where Eva doesn't survive and the Sumadera's are her only living guardians, if the gold was somehow excavated by the police, then it would go to them or somewhere else.

It wasn't fully in Ange's hands in 1998, I think that's why Kasumi was trying to take her into custody. And Kinzo hasn't left a will outside of Rokkenjima...so the money sent before the conference would serve as a backup.

>>5278102
>Most of the symbolism you can find in Umineko has been about this one way or another.

What symbolism? Where? Please show it to me.

>>5278108
>You want the brains of the insane to work logically.

Yup, I do. Crazy people will behave in a way that is perfectly understandable once you accept their unique worldview. See, oh, Higurashi.

I'd like you to explain why Shkanon feels the need to crossdress constantly over a three-year-period, please.

>What impact does this being true have, what other things can I gather if I assume this is true?

Shkanon has no real impact even if it is true. The only things it really does are a) make all the mysteries in Ep3 completely irrelevant, b) give us an answer to Ep6's final riddle, and c) explain where Kanon's body goes.

>>5278116
Hideyoshi and Eva, first episode. Go.

>>5278107
The game doesn't make a big deal out of it. ShKanon's biggest support is the lack of evidence to disprove it and Umineko's constant use of dirty wordplays which allows it to work. The part with Beatrice''s "creation" is important, as it points towards the whole multiple personalities thing, but it only connects with Shkanon if we go as far as to believe in Shkanontrice. I can take Shkanon, personally, and I can take Shannontrice, but THREE personalities is a little too much. I wouldn't put it past Ryu07 anymore, though.
And I wish it didn't create such rage-filled debates. There's obviously not enough proof, shouldn't we look at other mysteries, or maybe look at them from other angles? But any Umineko discussion falls into Shkanon wars nowadays.

By the way, is it possible that someone secretly solved the epitaph in Dawn?

>>5278209

I have yet to play Ep6, but apparently it heavily hints towards Shkanon without outright confirming it.

>>5278155
-Broken mirror, you know the one broken by Shannon to "free" Beatrice, the broken mirror imagery is also used between scenes in every episodes so it should be pretty important.
-Talking about mirrors, Beatrice hate them. Self image and DID, etc...

-One of the most important theme present IN EVERY EPISODES is the whole "creating someone else, your ideal, inside yourself" thing.
The "2" Maria in episode 1, remember George speech.
Jessie in episode 2
Eva Beatrice in Episode 3
MARIA in episode 4, the whole MAMA IS BEING TAKEN OVER BY AN EVIL WITCH THAT'S WHY SHE IS BAD AT TIMES thing
Natsuhi's delusion about being the ideal the Uroshimiya "wing inside your heart", etc...

And episode 6 has that big monologue.

Then you have stuffs like Kanon being a ninja that can appear and disappear at will and is always watching over Shannon for some reason, his and Shannon WE ARE FURNITURE AND WE CAN'T LOVE BECAUSE WE AREN'T HUMAN and other stuffs.

>>5278225

They must have, since Maria died.

>>5278179
Kanon enters, kill them, use some tape to hold the chain.
Later he cuts the chain and quickly take back the tape when he enters, problem solved.

>More regurgitated Shkanontrice bullshit
This is why we can't have nice things

>>5278240
Yeah, that's what I was looking at as well. But I wasn't sure if Battler would keep the pattern in his game.

>>5278233
Is it just me, or the hints towards Shannontrice are quite different and separate from those pointing to Shkanon?

>>5278244
Tape that acts as strong as the chain? (where did it come from anyway?)

The mirror is the cap that prevents the flow of volcanic gas.

Just look at all the people on the island that have conditions: Natsuhi's inability to have a child, Jessica's asthma, Krauss' stupidity, Kinzo's insanity.

The volcanic gas flows through the underworks of the island and is connected to the boiler room and the underground passage to Kuwadorian. The gold was mined ON the island which explains why there is an expansive tunnel tunnel running through the island.

>>5278295
No, wait, that's besides the point. How does finding truth to the Shkanon situation factor into that?

>>5278295
Erika uses that trick in episode 6 so it comes from the game.
And it doesn't have to be as strong as the chain, Kanon is the one who break it after all.

One of the reasons I can't accept Shkanontrice is due to the whole "personality x died in this room" bullshit

>>5278315
Are you fucking stupid?
ShKanon being true doesn't mean that every murders have to use it as a plot device.

>>5278295
I'm more concerned about why no one else thinks about using the hatchet that Kanon had in any of the other chapters, especially when Battler is forced to make his hatstand-spear.

Seriously. Considering how quick it was for him to get a hold of it, it must've been in the mansion, and it's not the kind of thing that's easily hidden. Unless he took it from the the shed when the bodies were discovered, but then why didn't anyone notice it? Or why someone as apparently weak as Kanon could actually wield it in he first place......ARGH, IT'S ALL USELESS

>>5278310
I never thought that Kinzo's insanity could have other reasons, incredible.

However that's all right, except maybe Krauss' stupidity, that seems rather genetic.

Since we are here, who do you believe to carry the poison on Rokkenjima? Rosa or Kyrie?

>>5278329
I don't know. That's the impression I get from people who support it to line up Kanon/Shanon (whichever is still standing) as one of the main murderers or accomplices.

>>5278322
Definition of instant death, as used in Umineko, given by Beatrice herself.
即死とはつまり、攻撃を受けて即座に行動不能になったという意味だ

Basically means sustaining an attack and being immediately unable to act in any ways in the process.

That's the definition.
It doesn't say what sort of attack nor does it say that "instant death" = really died.

In the case of DID, it could mean that Shannon/Kanon received a "mental" attack and completely lost the control of their body in the process.
It works.

>>5278352

The hatchet is in the boiler room. I think it's the same one that Battler used to break a gap into the garden shed in EP4 with the wire cutter and tested out on the well.

>>5278372
DEATH IS DEATH.

>>5278397
Not in Umineko, and it's Beatrice herself who say it.

>>5278372
>It works.

Only if you introduce a contrived mechanism that even yourself can't explain. How does "personality x dies in this room" work? Why does it happen? The whole idea simply exists to dance around red text, and is a dead end for any actual theory making.

>>5278372

That is not how DID works. At all.

>>5278400
Then why call it INSTANT DEATH?
Retarded.
'Hey, in Umineko, at episode 7, a witch says in red <Right is left>. Remodify the whole game and text to fit'

Amazing.

>>5278446
I already stated how it works.
Beatrice said that "instant death", and that's how Shannon and Kanon died, means completely losing control of your body.
So another personality taking control of Shannon/Kanon's body works, heck Eva-Beatrice danced around this very thing at the end of episode 3
Read this.

>>5278457
This is a fucking VN.
DID is often used in fiction, I've yet to see one that portray it accurately.

>>5278457
Let's not even consider the more enjoyable question: with Shkanon, how do you kill the "first one" without the other being aware of it or leaving evidence that signifies without a doubt to the other that the first is dead?

>>5278473
Once again, that's what Beatrice said.
Read episode 3 again if you don't believe me, it happens when they are talking about the first twilight.

Battler asks for a definition, Beatrice gives him.
How people could have missed it, I don't know.
Yeah it's stupid, but that happens in the fucking game itself.

>>5278492
What bothers me is that people actually accept it and work with it.

>>5278483

Sure, but this doesn't excuse Ryukishi's use of it.

>>5277028

Don't forget me!

>>5278516
Who are you?

>>5278475
Geez, you're dense. Why do Shkanon switch personalities when they do? That's the central question. Until an answer to that question exists, there is no actual mechanism for the DID-- it just seems to happen when it's convenient from a meta perspective. Using that definition "Instant death" without a concrete explanation of what it actually means as an alternative is conjuring up bullshit for the sake of argument.

>>5278475
>>5278372
Wrooooooooooong!!!! Instant death means that as soon as they were attacked they were incapable of action. But afterwards they certainly die. It can take seconds or minutes, but as soon as they were attacked they were incapable of taking action to prevent their death. So it means they would have to be restrained.

What are you going to argue? that they used an electromagnetics or hypnosis to toggle with their personalities? Ridiculous

>>5278604
Read your fucking pic well, fucking idiot.
Look at the words Beatrice uses.
Especially the "could" and "no matter what".
Fucking reading comprehension, do you have it?

>>5278604

Funny thing is, that definition brings into question the nature of Kinzo's death as shown in Ep5.

Is it possible he was murdered, I wonder?

>>5278628
you lost me

It really bugs me that people are going on about how the red is somehow untrustworthy. Other than baseless speculation about the last red of EP6, has there ever been even a single red statement that didn't clearly mean exactly what it said in a straightforward way?

Get it through your heads. Beatrice doesn't like that kind of wordplay, and none of her puzzles make use of it. Her style involves misdirection and exploiting false assumptions, not stupid semantic tricks.

>>5278658

Well, there is the "Jessica's corpse/the corpse of Jessica" bit. Also "Rosa".

>>5278653
I bet
Could implies a supposition.
It could rain tomorrow.
The world could end tomorrow.
You could die in a few years.
Etc...
See what I mean?

The only strict definition of her "instant death" is "no matter what, it would be impossible for them to take any actions of their own will".
But it doesn't say that another "will" could be able to move the body around.

Erika was a meta character all along. She never existed in the real world. In EP5 she's the inner persona of Eva. In EP6 she's the inner persona of Sayo.

>>5278658
"Time it was said at" shenanigans, anyone?

>>5278690
Jessica had a fucking metal stake shoved through the center of her back. I defy you to come up with a way to fake that without contradicting the scenes where Battler actually handled the stakes. Beato was making fun of the idea that she might somehow be alive anyway, since Battler refused to suspect any of the servants.

In the "Rosa" instance, Beato was again making fun of Battler for the idea that the person he thought was Rosa might actually be some nineteenth person in disguise.

In both cases it was completely obvious what Beato meant based on the surrounding white text. But I guess we're not paying attention to that, huh?

>>5278765
Misdirection and bad assumptions. Before that puzzle, red always applied at the moment it was stated unless otherwise specified. Why did you get caught up in the drama and suddenly think that particular statement retroactively applied to before Nanjo died?

>>5278774

You're implying that there aren't, for example, collapseable stakes, or that some of the stakes aren't collapseable.

Jessica's death is never confirmed in that episode, and Battler never touches her body.

And, actually, the surrounding white text can be read to support this interpretation. Notice that while the window is said to be locked, it's never said that no one passed through it, for example.

>>5278806
Jessica's death is confirmed.
And Battler, the detective, is next to her for several minutes.
He even states later that he verified himself if she was really dead.

>>5278817
And to drive the point home.

>>5278817

Where is her death confirmed?

And it doesn't matter if Battler was next to her or if he thinks he verified her death; he never touched her, and we know, thanks to Ep5, that the detective CAN be fooled by fake corpses.

>>5278837
Corpse of Jessica in red.

>>5278837
>>thanks to Ep5, that the detective CAN be fooled by fake corpses.
The stuff in ep5 was only that some people can lie and call something that isn't a corpse a corpse.
Not that the detective can be fooled.
Read more carefully.

>>5278806
Collapsible how, exactly? They have a large drill head. You could argue that the shaft collapses into the head, but you can't argue that the head wasn't thrust into the body. There'd be no way to prop it up in a way that wasn't blindingly obvious to the observers.

Second, the stake was in the center of Jessica's back. How exactly would she manage to arrange that herself without assistance?

Third, why would a matching set of novelty paperweights have just one special collapsible one? Do you think Kinzo bought them specially for carrying out fake occult murders?

Fourth, assuming any of them were collapsible, why wasn't that feature used for any of the faked deaths? For instance, Kanon in EP1, or Hideyoshi in EP5. In both of those cases, the stake was just smeared with blood and left lying near the body.

>>5278827

Actually, yeah, this is sort of what I think happened, minus the involvement of the servants.

Servants make boring killers, and really, the mastermind being a member of Battler's FAMILY has so much more impact than it being a crazy maid.

>>5278847

No, "Jessica's corpse" is in red.

As in, the corpse belonging to Jessica.

>>5278806
>You're implying that there aren't, for example, collapseable stakes, or that some of the stakes aren't collapseable

Battler identified stakes a couple of times and none of them are collapsible. Ange even got her hand on Mammon's stake and there weren't any problems with it.
Even if Jessica was alive, she'd need to get it out with some help..sounds painful just thinking about it.

>>5278857

Nope. Erika is tricked by all the fake deaths in Ep5. She genuinely believes that the crime scenes she's shown were real.

>>5278871
>Do you think Kinzo bought them specially for carrying out fake occult murders?

Yes, actually.

>>5278873

Battler has never held the Lust or Wrath stakes, as I recall.

>>5278892
Erika never sees any corpses.
She isn't tricked by a fake corpse, only by a lie.
Seriously it's not hard to understand, just try a little.

>>5278899

Oh, I understand perfectly. Please stop treating me like an idiot.

Although we have no confirmation either way of his death, Erika DOES see Hideyoshi's corpse. I'll accept that she never actually saw the faces of the cousins and Rosa.

>>5278892
Battler handled the Stake of Asmodeus in EP3 when he pulled it out of his father's brain. I hope that's also sufficient to prevent you from claiming Eva faked her death in EP1.

>>5278952

...I don't remember this. I don't recall Battler ever pulling out stakes from anyone's body.

>>5278892
Sorry, let me rephrase that. Do you think Kinzo bought them specially for carrying out fake occult murders several years in advance?

>>5278961
Shannon in Episode 2. And Kyrie in Episode 4.

>>5278952
That didn't happen

>>5278974
In episode 2 he lifted up Shannon's head and blood flooded out, but that's about it. There was a stake there, but he didn't touch it. Rosa chased him out before he could investigate any further.

>>5278973

There's a theory floating around AnimeSuki that Kinzo was a STAGE magician, and the stakes were props, so, yes, it's a possibility.

The idea is that the first twilight is always supposed to be fake, in accordance with that will of Kinzo's that's never mentioned after Ep2.

>>5278974

Shannon's stake fell out of her head when Battler moved her. He also never touched Kyrie's body; that's how we can be nearly certain that she killed Nanjo.

>>5278928
Erika didn't enter the room where Hideyoshi may have been murdered; she went around the outside. She later put her head into the room but it's not stated she saw his corpse (what she saw would really depend on the layout of the room) and his body was then wrapped in a sheet and carried past her.

She may have seen it later but I don't remember anything to that effect.

>>5279089

That isn't quite how I remember it, but whatever.

>>5279089
Uh... yeah she did. She entered the room Battler, Erika and the adults have a conversation, Erika says she doesn't care about the corpse and let's Eva dragged him off. Then Erika tries to open the closet door and Battler stopped her.

It might be my reading of it, but I see nothing in the text that states she actually entered the room until after the body was carried out.

"The shutters. ............They didn't budge an inch from the outside. I just went and checked."
...
Just now, she had finally arrived and poked her face in from the hallway.
...
"My deepest condolences. So? What's the situation inside the room?
"......What are they bickering about in there?"
"......Erika-chan. ...You'd probably like to preserve the crime scene, but could you just let this one slide...?"
".....................Do whatever you want. All I'm interested in is the fact that a closed room has appeared that's much more serious than Kinzo-san's study. I have no interest in corpses, so do as you please."
"............"

Battler's expression was clearly unhappy, ......but she ignored him completely.
"......Feel free to carry it out anytime. That corpse. Or am I in the way?"
Erika backed away from the door to open a path.

...

Then, everyone stumbled out, and she took a single step into the now empty guest room, .........looked around, and burned that scene into her eyes.
......Erika claimed to have a photographic memory.
If that was true, those few seconds were more than enough for her.

My reading is that she's stood in the doorway and doesn't see the room properly until after the body is carried out.

>>5278975
>>5278961
Hm, I went back to find the scene, and apparently I'd conflated it with Battler pulling the stake out of Kyrie's head in EP4. We don't know which stake that one was though.

>>5279222
>My reading is that she's stood in the doorway and doesn't see the room properly until after the body is carried out.

That sounds about right, you didn't make any errors there. For the most part, she always assumes that the "corpses" are corpses. I guess Erika was too focused on indicting Natsuhi as a culprit.

>/jp/ - Touhou and Umineko

time to assert this truth

bump