/jp/ - Otaku Culture

it's all in Battler's head
everything

in the final scenes he'll wake up in a mental hospital
so alone

>>4413965
spoilers!

>>4413965
It's not in Battler's head, it's in Shannon's head, get it right.
Everyone know that Jyuza is Battler after all.

Umineko is nothing more than Maria's autistic daydreams.

>>4413951
translationplz?

Also, there are a lot of things that point against it, especially any other foreshadowing concerning Shannon and Kanon ever.

ep6 plainly told you that Shannon was Kanon through all those representations of a love trial in the meta world
and the retire of Beatrice and Battler was expected for whatever reason, they didn't fit in a fight with Shannon and Kanon

>>4413993
There is nothing that point against it, try again.

>>4414002 refusal
Not a valid argument in Umineko.

>>4413993
Beatrice says that she witnessed a lot of duels, but the duel Shannon vs Kanon is unique: usually, when the reason of the duel is love, there are two people competing for the same person, but here there are two pairs of lovers who have to fight to death, so that only one can reach happiness.

>>4414015
Then let's argue a little.
Things that help the argument:
Shannon and Kanon never appears in front of Battler at the same time.
Kanon's body always disappears mysteriously.
Kanon always appears out of nowhere in front of Shannon when she is alone.
They keep saying that they aren't humans, that they don't have a full soul.
Kanon keep saying that looking over Shannon is his job.
They live in the same room, sleep in the same bed.
Only one of them can have their love come true, if Shannon gets George then Kanon will never get Jessica or see her again.

So, what point against it?

>>4414036
Every morning, Shannon helps Gohda cooking while Kanon opens shutters and unlocks doors.
Kanon's rant at the end of E1.
Kanon being The Hanged Man.
George taking
Shannon is a year older than Shannon.
There is no foreshadowing for crossdressing whatsoever. There is foreshadowing for Shannon to dress as Beatrice, but it makes no sense for them to.
Shannon's proposed feigned deaths often requied her to be absolutely sure no one will notice she was alive, yet if Battler got inside the shed in E1 and saw her body, shit could ensue.
The amount of people who had to know about it yet never said anything when people died.

I could propably go on.

>>4414102
*George taking Shannon to aquarium, Kanon going on Jessica's Tsurupettan, Jessica teasing Shannon about George after that.

>>4414102
Oh holy shit, should've read it after myself
"Shannon being a year older than Kanon"

>>4414102
>>Every morning, Shannon helps Gohda cooking while Kanon opens shutters and unlocks doors.
Could easily be done at the same time, or Genji could help her.

>>Kanon's rant at the end of E1.
It actually helps the case,

>>Shannon is a year older than Shannon.
I guess you meant Kanon, and that's just a "setting"
Like how in Mahoraba, Kozue, sick with DID as well, is 17 yet her other personalties have different ages with one being 6 for example.

>>Shannon's proposed feigned deaths often requied her to be absolutely sure no one will notice she was alive, yet if Battler got inside the shed in E1 and saw her body, shit could ensue.
The whole thing about Beatrice way is taking risks to create a miracle.
By taking this risk, she ensured a way to continue with her perfect setting.

Lack of foreshadowing doesn't mean anything in this context, he gave you enough hints that they could be the same persons, anymore and it would have been damn obvious.
And only Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa need to know, they are the ones who always cover for her.

Other things you wrote are completely unrelated (who care about the marketing shit of the anime?).

>>4414119
>>*George taking Shannon to aquarium, Kanon going on Jessica's Tsurupettan, Jessica teasing Shannon about George after that.
Didn't happen at the same time.

*oh look it's THIS thread again*

>>4414151
Other things you wrote are completely unrelated (who care about the marketing shit of the anime?).
No, they are official and Ryu'd.

But well, from your responses I can tell, that you like ShKanon mainly because it, well, trolls people.

>>4414211
>>But well, from your responses I can tell, that you like ShKanon mainly because it, well, trolls people.

Actually it doesn't have anything to do with that, it's just common sense.
Oh well, be deluded as much as you want, but know that you'll be disappointed next episode.

I love how people argue Shkanon is true when there's red text that confirms they have different bodies.

"All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!"

Though the translation is not accurate.

The translation is literally "All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of the five servants!"

So all FIVE servants had a key each. There's no 'oh well they found two keys in one' (when there's no mention of that at all in the story. You'd think someone would say 'oh hey that's weird, why would x have 2 master keys?').

That confirms Shannon has a different body than Kanon.

"The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the original person!" < Confirms only the original Kanon can be called Kanon

And FURTHERMORE...

"No corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story."

So you can't claim that 'oh well it's a body substitute from another servant'.

>>4414293
>>The translation is literally "All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of the five servants!"
Five servants doesn't mean five bodies you know.

>>"The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the original person!" < Confirms only the original Kanon can be called Kanon
Works with ShKanon if they were originally the same person.

>>"No corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story."
Nobody said there was a body substitute.


You should try harder to see the very obvious loopholes.
Especially the name thing is pretty obvious.

>>4414322
no, it literally says
5 keys were found
each in the body of one of the servants

from this you can deduce that there has to be 5 bodies, because it forbids for a servant to have two

>>4414342
No, you don't have to conclude anything.
5 keys were found in the pocket of the five servants would usually mean what you think it means.
Usually, but not automatically.
It's not a perfect correlation.
Kanon and Shannon are considered as 2 different servants with 2 different identities, we know this thank to all the red.

So, hypothetically, if you were to find Shannon's body, find the key in her pocket, that would count for 1 servant and 1 key.
Now if someone was to take Shannon's body, take it to the chapel, dress it like Kanon with the key in the clothes.
And people was to find it, it would also count for 1 servant and 1 key.
So you have 2 servants, 2 keys, 1 body, see where I'm going?

That's a loophole, of course it's hypothetical but it's here.
You shouldn't go so fast with your correlation.

>>4414374
It would be noticed if someone was not present after all the bodies were found.
And they were all dead.

We wanted to prove that ShKanon is no neccesary, we did, stop arguing.

>>4414546
Rosa and Kyrie separated themselves from the group.
They were also acting in a pretty suspect way in episode 2 and 3.

ShKanon not only is required to solve a lots of closed rooms and mysteries, it also fit the narrative.

It's not required to solve any closed room and you can't provide a single example of it doing so.

>>4414890
Episode 6 closed room can only be solved by ShKanon.
Every others closed rooms can also be solved one way or another, ShKanon just made them easier.

>Umineko is nothing more than fashion victim Hanyuu's autistic daydreams.

fixed

Ep6 closed room can be solved without Shkanon. Kanon just needs to have never been in the room he was thought to be in at all. There are several loopholes that could make this happen.

But hey, nice try and all and thanks for admitting that's the only one where it even matters. So it solves what again? Nothing? Ah I see.

>>4414940
"Everyone else" was stated to be in the cousins room in red, there's no loophole around something like this.

So, where are the other loopholes?

>>4413995
Yes, it would be a spectacularly dick move for Ryukishi to say Shannon is not Kanon after EP6, since he would basically be saying "LOL, FUCK FORESHADOWING."

I'd love for it to be false, but then it's like saying we should disregard a large part of EP6 as trolling bullshit.

"Kinzo" is explicitly excluded from "everyone else." Kanon could be "Kinzo."

"Battler" is stated to be in the guest room. Kanon could be the other Battler.

>>4414957
"Kinzo"'s entire presence is completely excluded by Erika, read the red text more carefully.
It can't be "Kanon becoming Kinzo", Erika made sure of it

>>4414957
Oh and for the other thing:
-All names refer only to the actual people!

>>4414948
There is one, and only one, loophole that could be used to allow Kanon to bypass the closed rooms in the guesthouse completely. I think it's even less likely than Shkanon, all things considered, but it's possible that Kanon gained the name "Kinzo" at some point in time. And Battler only stated in red that "everyone else" was in the neighboring room after Erika allowed for Kinzo to be exempted from it.

It's pretty clear you haven't red the text at all. The "all names refer to the actual people" applies only to the room Shannon is in, which by the way is quite tightly sealed up by the red, but please continue to shoot your own theory in the foot.

>>4414985
>>-All names refer only to the actual people!

>>4414987
No it's not, red text is red text.
If it was like this, it would be specified, that's how red text works.
You've got to fight by the rules, you are the one shooting himself in the foot.

>>4414987
> which by the way is quite tightly sealed up by the red
WROOOOOONNNNGGGGG!

The room Kanon was supposed to be in was confirmed in red to have remained sealed the whole time, with both the seal on the door and the seal on the window remaining intact. However! The room Shannon was in only had the seal on its door confirmed intact. The seal on the window of that room was never confirmed to have remained intact.

>>4414987
Shannon's room isn't tightly sealed, the windows isn't.
It's not a perfect closed room.

"The people who were in the neighboring room at the time it was sealed were Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo. And, there were exactly five people in the neighboring room. No one other than the people corresponding to those five names existed! All names refer only to the actual people!"

At least troll better than taking things out of context.

>The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
>A different person cannot claim his name!

So..the loophole around this is that we don't know who 'Kanon' is? If it's solvable with Episode 1-4, then his name revelation in 6 shouldn't be of any importance?

Kanon taking on another name, or being Kumasawa's grandson, or other such bullshit is exactly as bad as Shkanon, but without the copious amount of foreshadowing that Shkanon has.

>>4414990
>>4415001
There is precedence for red text to be limited to the context of other red text that was stated right before it. I'm too lazy to find it for you, though.

>>4414985
*"everyone else" was in the cousin's room

Enjoy your mastermind Hideyoshi and Kanontrice trollfaces as ghost Erika bawws when your groupthink proves to have been played like a fiddle by a basic troll I guess.

>>4415027
> implying Kanontrice isn't better than both Shkanontrice, Shannontrice, and Jessitrice combined

>>4415027
It would indeed be quite the troll, considering it means ghosts can decapitate living people in the umineko world.

Spirits did Umineko, case closed.

>>4415033
is at least a woman?
sorry, but gay end is a no thanks

PROTIP: Erika is the Piece-Beato of Chiru.

>>4415001 No it's not, red text is red text. If it was like this, it would be specified, that's how red text works.
Erika was able to call people who could not be dead at the time "corpses"
Are you sure that you know how red works?

Another thread about Shkanon turned into Shkanontrice

Is this what Umineko has turned to /jp/?

>>4415055
it isn't really about shkanontrice

>>4415045
Gay bro end is best end and you know it.

Oh the weeping and gnashing of shipper teeth.

Even more ironic, this game has more fangirls that endorse straight pairings than gay ones. I'd ejaculate with joy on their weeping faces.

>>4415055
It's more like people are scrambling to try and disprove even Shkanon, which is fairly obvious at this point.

It would be a dick move if Ryukishi didn't do it by now, since he more than adequately supplied evidence for it.

How can they be the same person when they are seen together in several scenes?

>>4415071
notthisshitagain.jpg

So let me get this straight. You want the worst possible ending that's just a retread of something from Higurashi because you're too dense to look for any answer but the one trollishly thrown directly into your face because it would somehow disappoint you if the writer isn't a hack?

Why are you even reading this again?

>>4415045
>gay end is a no thanks
Mark my words, Umineko will end like this

>>4415064
he trolled in higurashi by giving the right answer in tsumihoroboshi about the parasytes by passing it as Rena's dellusions
I wouldn't put it past him

>>4415045
Of course.

>>4415076
It's not about what I want, ShKanon is obvious seeing the entire fucking narrative, that's all.

>>4415084
Don't forget how he revealed Beatrice's goal in Episode 3, but followed it immediately with an event that trolled people so much they completely ignored what was said.

>>4415076
But he IS a hack, have you not read through the story thus far?

In the same way that Twilight is horribly written, but incredibly popular, Umineko suffers from poor writing, but the characters are just dynamic enough to grab you.

To disregard Shkanon is to disregard all the evidence towards it in EP6. Why do they sleep together? Why can only one achieve happiness? Why is there not one scene where the "detective" speaks to both of them at the same time, every other character has a scene like that.

>>4415088
No, definitely not.

Oh well. E7 comes out and whatever the answer will be, one thing is for sure. Someone's gotta get trolled hard.

>>4415126
> Why is there not one scene where the "detective" speaks to both of them at the same time
Addendum: There is no scene _narrated by the detective_ in which the detective talks to both Shannon and Kanon at the same time, or even sees them together at the same time.

>>4415130
> Someone's gotta get trolled hard.
I highly expect Bernkastel to set up the gameboard of Episode 7 in such a way that it portrays every single character in the worst light possible.

>>4415157
Probably will be more realistic than what Beatrice and Battler have been doing.

>>4415126
Meta E3 is one huge troll.
fantasy E4 is one huge troll
actual 'ich' form narration in E5 is an gargantuan troll.
Nah, can't see any problem with E6 being revealed to be a troll later. It's, like, culminating.

Also,
>Addendum:
I saw usage of this in Umineko threads a lot of times... so it's always one person huh. Good to know.

Problem with ShKanon is that episode 6 just made it more obvious, enough so that most people couldn't deny it any more.
It's not like it's sudden, there's a reason why it was a really popular theory by episode 2, there was always a lots of clues pointing to it.

>>4415157
Later it turns out that Lambda was not present in E6 because she was asked to play Shannon and Kanon(34) pieces by Battler. So she makes a big cometrollback later.
I highly expect crying Lambda and Bern, though.

>>4415180
> Meta E3 is one huge troll.
Except the only part that was truly a troll was the bit at the very end. Everything else was done to try to get Battler to accomplish the goal outlined in >>4415106.

> fantasy E4 is one huge troll
Except the only thing "trollish" about that, with respect to Battler, was the presence of Goldsmith. Unless you are claiming that the Ange and Maria sequences were trolls and not scenes that revealed the truth about magic in Umineko?

> actual 'ich' form narration in E5 is a gargantuan troll.
Except it isn't. Ryukishi07 specifically said that Episode 5 would contain a huge trap that would confirm some of the suspicions of those who were close to the truth, but confuse those who hadn't yet gotten to that point. Even before Episode 5, people had realized that things not seen from Battler's point of view (or rather, the point of view of the detective) were untrustworthy, and that Battler's POV was the only trustworthy narration in the first four Episodes; if you think about it that way, the very fact that Battler is described as witnessing/participating in fantasy scenes in Episode 5 implies that Battler's point of view is no longer trustworthy with respect to any of the events on the gameboard. It wasn't a troll: you simply hadn't come to the right conclusion about narrative POV beforehand. A lot of people didn't grasp that subtle fact, myself included; one of the main reasons was because EP5 seemed to disprove Shkanon for good, so we sidestepped the issue of Erika tossing around red and blue text in Battler's presence.

> so it's always one person huh.
Nah, I've seen people other than myself use it as well.

>>4415315
(On a side note, I myself feel that if Shkanontrice is indeed the case, they aren't the culprit, because I believe that whoever Beatrice is, she herself is not the culprit, or at least the Beatrice personality isn't, though that doesn't mean she can't be controlled by the mastermind, of course.)

I thought the huge trap was the addition of a nonexistent piece that acts exactly like game board Beatrice but all the fags just accept it because she's a magic DETECTIVE rather than a magic WITCH.

Shkannon can solve the closed room in episode 6, but it can also be solved if Kanon's corpse was hidden in the closet. And Natsuhi is never found in the closet in episode 5 so if we assume everyone is RETARDED than it works.

>>4415331
No, Erika was specifically stated to exist in Episode 5. Or rather, it was stated in red that she increased the head count by one, and that besides her, the number of people was exactly the same as in previous games. And obviously, fantasy characters don't increase the head count, otherwise Beatrice wouldn't be able to say "there are no more than 17 people on Rokkenjima".

And good luck explaining how a nonexistent person cut the heads off of five living people on a game board written by Battler. In other words, you can't use the argument that Erika was merely a "representation" of something, and that the people's heads were cut off by others from among the original 17, because Battler wrote the sixth game board so that the original 17 would _not_ kill each other.

Nothing you just said is actually anything but your opinion.

No hard numbers are ever used around or about Erika until the end of ep6. Erika asks for an accounting of all bodies in ep6, but her own location is never stated. Increasing the headcount of POSSIBLE people is different from increasing the headcount of ACTUAL people. "No more than 17" and "No more than 18" are both true if the number is 12.

Erika isn't real.

One half the arguments here are speculation; one half the arguments here are BS; these two groups are not mutually inclusive or exclusive. I've not played the game but, just from reading all these threads, I get the impression that the game is nothing but an obfuscation built upon an obfuscation.

I have a question: what does the Shkanon theory contribute to the murders if it is true?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It gives no additional motive, it explains no additional murders, it makes ONE closed room in ONE game slightly easier to solve, and it fucks up pretty much all the romantic subplots in the game and requires an additional massive conspiracy on top of the Kinzo conspiracy.

But people believe it because it's been shoved at them, and obviously if the game just GIVES ME the answer that must be right!

>>4415394
> Increasing the headcount of POSSIBLE people is different from increasing the headcount of ACTUAL people. "No more than 17" and "No more than 18" are both true if the number is 12.
Are you an idiot? The reason no hard numbers were stated is because if they were, then Ryukishi wouldn't be able to either 1) obscure Shkanon or 2) use the Shkanon theory as a troll, depending on which one is the case. Here's some of the red text from Episode 5:

# Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
# Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.

In other words, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY IS. It's not a matter of "16+1" vs. "17+0". If you represent the original count of people on the island with the variable X, then the count of people on the island when Erika is included is X+1.

>>4415444
> But people believe it because it's been shoved at them, and obviously if the game just GIVES ME the answer that must be right!
While you do have a point, you'd be surprised at how much information really is just shoved right out at you and yet is completely ignored by people. Remember Bernkastel, way back in Episode 1? How she stated that she is "the cruelest witch in the world"? How she stated that she wasn't Battler's ally, and was only providing him some assistance? And how many people actually took her words at face value and assumed that she was at most a neutral character, and was not in any way "good"?

>>4415433

It doesn't. All Shkannon does is lower the head count by one. You see Ryukishi's fans became insecure after numerous fantasy characters appeared in episode 4. So they wanted to lower the number of people on the island so they have less suspects. That way they don't have to suspect Kanon because he's fake and they don't have to think very hard to figure out who created the closed rooms in the other episodes and who murdered people because they can just claim that one of the people on the island is a fake person that Battler never sees.

Two separate reds dogg.

Erika increases the number of possible people by 1. She has no effect on the ACTUAL number of people. She's a 0. It's a semantic trick.

But I guess you're going to just ignore the whole end of ep6 thing even though it makes complete sense if Erika isn't a real person and just realized it.

>>4415474
If she is not real and just plays on such semantics, the presentation and the story become even more fucking retarded.
I guess we choose our poison here.

If Erika doesn't exist then how did she cut people's heads off?

All of you shkanon deniers need to go reread episode 2.

Like somebody said, someone is gonna get trolled.

His writing's really gotten fucking sloppy. Ep5 was a drag and the Logic Error in ep6 makes no fucking sense. He's trolling for the trollin' at this point. We just have to hope whichever he chooses is explained in a non-stupid way.

If Beatrice doesn't exist how did she kill people with demons?

DURRRRR I LEARNED NOTHING.

The thing is, Shkanon is ALSO completely speculation and contradicts many things character development wise.

And why does everyone keep going "THERE'S NO OTHER WAY TO EXPLAIN EPISODE 6 IT MUST BE TRUE!"? Because, really, there is. Even the love duel can be explained without Shkanon.

Very simply- Kanon and Shannon are culprits (or one isn't a culprit) on different sides. There's enough evidence to suggest that there are multiple culprits that don't have the same agenda in each game (the magic circles are even stated to not be correlated to the murders in Ep6, remember?), and that Kanon is indeed a killer (Episode 1 proves this).

FURTHERMORE, if you accept Shannontrice, Kanon's 'fight against Beatrice' in all his dialogue is resolved. Only one side can attain happiness- because they're on opposite sides!

"Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon share one soul", you say? Well obviously- Beatrice represents the mystery of the island! This has been stated over and over again. Therefore, 'Beatrice's soul' is the mystery.

My assertion has equal worth to Shkanon here, now. Plus, it doesn't contradict or rely on messing around with the red text regarding identities and people! So I won't permit this tale you're all so fond of!
(Ep6's closed room can also be solved either by Erika not existing or Kanon = Kinzo. Good day.)

FOR ALL INSTANCES OF "BEATRICE":

Replace "Beatrice" with "Erika"
Replace "Witch" with "Detective"
Replace "Demons" with "Dlanor"
Replace "Ritual" with "Rules"
Replace "Closed Room" with "Duct Tape"
Replace "Teleporting" with "Climbing Walls In A Typhoon"

HOLY FUCK MY MIND

>>4415474
Then in Episode 6, who sealed the guest room? Who sealed the cousin's room? Who sealed the room next to the cousin's room? Who cut off the heads of five people? And again, it can't be any of the pieces that Battler wrote the roles for, which is everyone other than Erika.

Now, there _is_ a possible explanation for it besides Shkanon, but you aren't going to like it because it also involves DID. That possible explanation: Erika being a personality of someone originally on the island that only manifested in Episodes 5 and 6.

No one sealed the rooms. Battler agreed not to have anyone violate the seals Dlanor metaphorically declared. Only the tape on Genji's door in ep5 and the taped chain lock in ep6 are provably real.

The culprit cut the heads off.
The rescuer may not have done so intentionally.
Kanon was the rescuer.
Draw your own conclusions.

>>4415512
ShKanon doesn't go against the current characterization at all.
You have to remember that DID =/= pretending.

Honestly the entire narrative goes the way of ShKanontrice, I don't see how anyone can't see it.

>>4413949
Stop spamming AɳoɳTalk.com with your stupid shit.

>>4415505
The difference here is that Beatrice was the Game Master, and while the Beatrice of fantasy scenes on the gameboard didn't actually kill anyone, Meta Beatrice knew who killed who. In other words, she knows who kills who, then covers that up with fantasy. If piece Battler had actually been competent, he could very well have prevented certain things from occurring by being present when they would have occurred. ...Or he would have just gotten himself killed, who know.

Anyway... do note that Erika is stated in red to have performed actions on the game board. The only way Erika could be nonexistent is if the red truth can be used with the actions of fantasy characters, and the only reason Beatrice never used it to say that she did things with magic is because she didn't want to mess up the game.

Of course, if that is indeed true, then it starts making things REALLY REALLY messy.

>>4415586
No it doesn't. The whole Beatrice lie can be solved without anyone having DID or dressing up in an overly complicated witch cosplay. Maria just has to be a really good liar or she's really gullible and believes that the person who gave her the letters received them from Beatrice. And I seriously doubt Maria has never lied to anyone.

Meta-Beatrice said "I" with respect to giving letters to Maria.

Meta-Beatrice is not Suit-Beatrice. How can Beatrice claim to have been the one to do something in red that one of the 17 humans on the board did?

Erika works the same way.

>>4415630
> No it doesn't.
...Yes it does.

>>4415630
I agree that she's gullible. There's just one problem that comes along when she 'identifies' Beatrice.

>>4415444
>and it fucks up pretty much all the romantic subplots in the game
But Kanontrice means Jessica was lusting after a lesbian, because Ryukishi wouldn't make a homo end for Battler, fans would eviscerate him.

Shannontrice obviously destroys the relationship with George, or Battler, which means the innocent protagonist gets fuck all, wonderful ending.

Jessitrice really only works with Shkanon for some kind of Doubletrice, so I suppose fictional Kanon gets the shaft in that one, no matter who you choose, the relationships gets shook up.

>>4415639

I think your taking that out of context... That's about how to solve the candy trick using Kanon isn't it?

>>4415630
Talking about the characterization shown, not about the plausibility or how it solves the closed room.

Simply Shannon and Kanon's relationship screams DID, and it did well before episode 6.

>>4415638
Meta Beatrice is just as much Suit Beatrice as she is the boiler explosion that occurs at the end of all games. For reference, see the end of Episode 4's tea party.

Basically, Meta Beatrice consists of multiple things, so when she says "I", she may be referring to only one component of her (which was obviously the case in Episode 4, as she stated that no one was alive, Battler was alone, and yet she was there, and was not him, and would kill him). And if Kanon = Beatrice, (which is almost certainly the case, ignoring whether or not Shkanon is true), then this theory is even more likely, because he is the one who most likely gave Maria the letters she receives from "Beatrice".

>>4415474
Ghost Erika is exceedingly retarded, and you should feel bad for seriously proposing it.

Don't get me wrong, improper use of multiple personalities is fucking awful too, but what you're suggesting is basically magic.

In the end the only ones who are really against that theory are the shippers.

>>4415678
You missed the point it. Maybe this might help?

LOL DID

Oh yeah, by the way, for those who still say that the concept of personalities "dying" violates Knox's 8th because it has no evidence or foreshadowing in the story... note this.

>>4415664

She also supposedly received an umbrella from Kinzo. And nobody would mistake Kinzo by sight. If you claim Maria never saw Kinzo in the first place though and that she was just lying because one of the adults told her to it doesn't contradict the red text.

That's an example. If you assume the whole identifying thing is a deception than it doesn't pose much of a problem.

>>4415708
Rosa is the one who said that, not Maria.

>>4415708
> She also supposedly received an umbrella from Kinzo.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Hideyoshi who said Maria stated that, and Maria didn't actually say it herself?

>>4415730
Oh yeah, was there any news from that guy who had said they were going to go through all the Episodes and make a list of all the text that was emphasized with those dots?

>>4415711
whatever. Same thing different person.

Can you really trust Rosa when she said she met Kinzo and saw him make his will with Shannon in episode 2? It's foreshadowed that she'll lie too.

>>4415738
But it's not the same thing, because Maria may have said something different if she had been the one to speak.

Knox forbids a real Erika from ep6 culprit BTW.

No, not the detective prohibition. The other ones.

>>4415738
Rosa is a bitch who can easily lie for her own benefit.
Maria is a gullible child, but nothing show that she could lie.
Also Battler sees Beatrice at the end of episode 1, Maria immediately run up to her and hug her.
That's pretty much indicate that this is the Beatrice that she is used to meet.

>>4415748
Erika was introduced at the beginning of the episode.
Each episode is its own story.

>>4415708
I kinda had Episode 2 in mind. When Beatrice shows up in front of Rosa and Maria, she never told either of them her name. Instead, Maria identified her immediately as Beatrice.

"Ghost" Erika is retarded. "Fake" Erika is completely different and entirely exactly like half the shit in the story before. Board Beatrice? Goldsmith? Yeah that shit didn't happen either. Neither did Erika.

But whatever, enjoy not understanding what DID is and assuming it just solves everything when you've never bothered to actually ask yourself what, if anything, it solves (nothing).

>>4415763
Erika has her own body.
Names only refer to the person themselves.
Her, Kanon and Battler are 3 different persons.
So who is playing Erika?

>>4415748
No, each gameboard is a unique mystery of its own. The rule that "the culprit can only be someone introduced early in the story" can be applied separately to each game individually, and must be because the culprit isn't necessarily the same in each Episode. (For example, Episode 3 almost certainly had a different culprit from the first two Episodes.) And Knox's 5th has no bearing on Umineko so is unimportant.

Someone else, duh. Erika can be anybody, you just have to start narrowing it down. She's probably one of the people in the "everybody else" room.

But don't pull the "names only refer to the people themselves" bullshit because Shkanon has to dodge that one way harder than a -trice or Fake Erika theory has to.

>>4415774
Shit, if somebody had remembered that bit of red text before we could have avoided most of this argumentation.

>>4415763
So what happened to piece Erika in EP6? She didn't make it onto the island? She was killed by the culprit?

Kyrie, Jessica, Shannon, and Kanon are all the most popular culprits, and they have their own fantasy bullshit scenes, meaning Battler was controlling the story. There is no way they would be able to kill Erika and play dress up as her if he didn't will it. George had a fantasy scene too, so he's out.

Meaning Hideyoshi killed Erika, then dressed up as her.

>>4415782
Erika entered the room with Battler with her own body when "everyone else" was stuck in the cousin room.
Also once again, "Names only refer to the person themselves"

>>4415756
Dlanor said in red that it was impossible for a character introduced in EP 5 to be named the culprit.

Erika was introduced in EP 5.

>>4415782
> She's probably one of the people in the "everybody else" room.
She can't be, because that room was confirmed to be completely sealed.

> But don't pull the "names only refer to the people themselves" bullshit because Shkanon has to dodge that one way harder than a -trice or Fake Erika theory has to.
I've never understood why people seem to claim this. It denies theories of people using others' names, but does not deny theories where the same person goes by multiple names, which is the case with Shkanon.

>>4415782
You are a fucking idiot, "names only refer to the people themselves" doesn't do shit to ShKanon because they are the same person to begin with.

>>4415777
Knox 1 doesn't prevent multiple culprits, it only prevents culprits not introduced early in the story to be the culprit.

According to Dlanor in EP 6, early means that someone can only be a culprit if they were introduced in EP 1, 2, 3 or 4. No characters from EP 5 and onward can be the culprit.

>>4415799
It was only for episode 5.
Each episode is self-contained.

God you're retarded.

"Beatrice" is a title used by someone. If I said "The name 'Beatrice' can only refer to the person themselves!" would you conclude that there must be a real life human Beatrice? No, you'd conclude Beatrice is somebody's alias.

Shkanonfags say Kanon is an alias. Erika could be an alias too. She never existed at all.

>>4415812
Erika was introduced into the story at EP 5 though and Dlanor said this in EP 6.

Erika is a guise for someone - this is okay because Battler narrates EP 5 and 6 and he's not reliable.

>>4415792

She drowned. Some people even think that you can explain episode 5 that way. That Erika represents the deductions of the other characters like Battler and Kyrie. For her "to not exist" though she has to drown and if argue that she drowned before the episode started you have to leave out an important TIP for her death in episode 6. the possible explosion

>>4415812
That's stupid. Then whats the point of continuity or the hinting going through episodes if every game is in its own realm?

>>4415818
Can't remember this red text anywhere

>>4415822
Stupid, really.

>>4415813
Erika has her own body though and she did enter Battler's room when everyone else position was stated.
And for this to work, someone on the island should have a DID with a second personality named Erika.

I'm still confused as to why this wasn't in the novel at all.

>>4415818
>>Dlanor said this in EP 6.
Where?

>>4415822
So Battler has this nifty fact that Umineko is actually The Sixth Sense, and Erika isn't really there, but he refrains from revealing this, despite the fact that it would undoubtedly cease her existence in the meta world like what happened with Battler in EP4, because he wants a noble logic fight with her that leads to his family getting slaughtered.

Fantastic, Battler confirmed for Ichigo, would read again.

>>4415799
Then either this is one of those cases where the game's premise overrides Knox's rules, or someone else besides Kanon exited the room containing Shannon and proceeded to kill five people while having a personality named "Erika".

>>4415846
Nowhere. It was stated in Episode 5.

>>4415849
Knox Rules apply to EP 6 - Battler and Dlanor both used them in the game.

>>4415809
> early means that someone can only be a culprit if they were introduced in EP 1, 2, 3 or 4.
...Welp, I'm gonna go with the Amakusa-as-culprit theory from now on, then.

>>4415852
Then it doesn't matter.
Erika couldn't be the culprit when she was the detective, but she renounced her rights in episode 6.

>>4415852
>Knox's 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story! A person first introduced in the 5th game cannot be named as the CULPRIT...!!

This red text means Erika as the culprit in EP 6 is not possible. That means someone is using Erika as a guise. If you notice, Erika's actions are always copied by someone else.

>>4415825
Um... because Beatrice WANTED Battler to have those hints so that he could figure something out about the circumstances on the island for all games?

Erika's body didn't enter the room. Whoever's alias is Erika entered the room. It's not really hard.

If Erika is real, why did Battler and Beatrice de-exist her at the end of ep6 with their red? It's impossible for Erika not to know Shkanon is true if it is true, so if Shkanon is real then Erika exists.

Erika got her ass capped so hard she stopped existing.

Gee.

>>4415855
There is no Knox's rules that goes against Erika killing in episode 6.
If it did, Dlanor would have stated it in this episode anyways.
Erika killed the 6 people, it was stated in red.
So either she exists or someone else beside ShKanon has DID on the island.
Pick your poison.

Shkanontrice is the culprit, main love interest, and victim.
Someone this works out, lol DID.

But no seriously Kyrie, Rosa, and Jessica are also blatantly trolling.

DID is not required any more than Eva-Beatrice being the fake non-Eva killer's alias requires the person who killed in ep3 have DID and believe him or herself to be a loli witch version of Eva.

The person who is Erika does not know on the board that they are Erika.

>>4415878
So who is the one with DID who think he is the little detective girl?

>>4415896
The other Battler, obviously. Who is actually George.

>>4415881
It wasn't stated in red that Erika killed 6 people.
>All five of the people I killed... were perfectly alive until the exact moment I killed them.

It never said "Erika killed 5 people" she used "I". This means Erika can be representing someone on the island. Like how Virgilia can represent Kumasawa and what not.

>>4415878
It's impossible for the Gamemaster to not know that someone doesn't exist either.

>>4415911
What about in Episode 5, then? Who was present with Nanjo and Genji, and thus was able to provide Nanjo with an alibi?

YOU DO NOT NEED TO HAVE DID TO BE PORTRAYED IN A SCENE AS SOMEONE ELSE.

I mean shit, do people think Virgilia and Ronove are DID Kumasawa and Genji? It's basically confirmed that the pairs share some association, but I think we'd all agree there's no chance in hell that Genji really believes himself to be a flamboyant gay demon.

>>4415918
Nothing says he was never aware. However, its hinted at the end of the game that Erika never knew either. Before she says her red about being the 18th guest, she says that as the Witch of Truth she has finally come to accept the truth about herself.

So to avoid ShKanontrice, you guy are creating another character with DID.
Good going, these threads are getting more ridiculous by the days.

>>4415922
Doesn't really matter - the guest room murders were proven fake, so all alibis are also fake.

>>4415930
> but I think we'd all agree there's no chance in hell that Genji really believes himself to be a flamboyant gay demon.
Then you think wrong. Is there anything to say that Genji's personality was not originally like that of Ronove, and his current personality is not something that he developed during his many years as Kinzo's most trusted servant? No, there is not.

But that isn't DID.

>>4415942
Nothing says that the person representing Erika has DID. Just that Erika is a magical being like Virgilia and Ronove and is representing a human character.

>>4415930
You need to have DID to fuck with the 18 vs 17 red text or to avoid the "Names only refer to the person themselves."
Seriously, stop being retarded.

You can't become someone else just like this, DID gives you a way around, that's all.

>>4415937
So he just let Erika go on with the game for shits and giggles, what an awesome guy, totally cares about his family.

Great, now with this ending, I hope Meta-Battler gets a soul crushing ending for being such a jackass, he should have denied her existence from the start, and then PERHAPS he could have avoided being caught in his own closed room like a fucking idiot.

Um yeah you can. If Erika doesn't exist, there are 17 people. Done and dusted, no DID necessary.

>>4415957
The person being Erika has to have DID if your theory is true.
Otherwise it fucks up a lots and a lots of red text.

Also the head count raised by one in episode 5 kills your theory so who care.

>>4415937
Interestingly, the Erika who is "erased" is ONLY Meta Erika. Piece Erika still has her Executed entry in the post-Episode TIPS; only Meta Erika has her Executed entry be completely blank.

>>4415968
And how do you get 18 people (STATED IN RED), genius?

>>4415969

You're so completely retardedly wrong that I don't even know where to start with you.

Also the first twilight in ep5 kills your theory so who care.

>>4415976

She's the 18th character, but there are only 17 real people.

I'm curious how DID-Shkanontrice gets around this since Shkanontrice is 3 people, not 2, so you need to erase another person to make it work.

Being the culprit =/= being a killer.
The culprit refers to the person who thought every up, the mastermind basically.
Like Takano was the culprit of Higurashi but she didn't kill that much.

>>4415976
Before Kinzo was confirmed to be dead at the start of all games it was stated that there no more than 18 people on the island. But it was lowered by one for Kinzo. We can assume that if Erika doesn't exist either than it works the same way. No DID is necessary either. We just need a red saying that she's dead at the start of all games.

>>4415961
You do realize the entire logic error happened because Battler got his ass trolled by deredere Erika, right?

>>4415990
ShKanontrice get around this by the whole LOL OFFICIAL VIEW BY THE WORLD that Erika's red text implies.

How does Erika do it?
Seriously you guys aren't even trying.
Or do you think that alias = person in its own right?

>>4415997
Half of them haven't read ep6 and the other half are trolling is probably why

>>4415993
"No more than 18" and "no more than 17" aren't mutually exclusive.
Kinzo was never counted.

>>4416008
No it doesn't. If Shkanontrice has DID she has three personalities, Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice.

Three personalities = three people.

This is the official stance of Shkanontrice, it can't work any other way. Therefore there are three people, so who among the original 17+Erika besides Kanon doesn't really exist, eeeeehhhhh?

I thought the reason Erika was able to exist was because of the whole Devil's Proof thing and thus, if the Game Master allows, it can be written into the story that Furude Erika ended up alive on Rokkenjima rather than dead, because her life-or-death status was never determined and thus, just as the explosion at the end of all games erases almost all traces of what happened, the Game Master can come up with any story that fits the ending circumstances as long as said story has actions that could be performed by humans underlying it.

God I really hate all this UMINEKO IS TERRIBLE HACK WRITING talk.

When Ep 5 came out, people were like HOLY SHIT FUCKING AWESOME ERIKA IS HILARIOUS GREAT COMEBACK BATTLER.

Now because Episode 6, which most people haven't read yet, might be a bit disappointing and doesn't fit with their shitty conspiracy theories, or fits too well, it's hack writing and it's just popular tat like pop music?

This line of thought drives me nust. I can accept Umineko isn't for everyone and popular doesn't equate to good. But popular doesn't equate to bad, either.

Maria killed her Maria personality and became MARIA.

Therefore all red text about Maria is irrelevant.

Therefore MARIA let Battler out of the ep6 closed room.

MY THEORY IS UNASSAILABLE

>>4416025
What is hard to understand by "viewed by the world"
Erika uses 人目 that literally mean public notice/view.
Shannon and Kanon are considered 2 different persons officially and by the "world", that's why the red text work on them.
Beatrice is considered as nothing more than a myth, that's why it doesn't work on her.

And Erika? How could she exist on the island?

It's actually possible that only the first 4 games "count" since they were the only ones Beatrice was running to begin with. 5 and 6 are hypothetical scenarios. But as Virgilia says, it should still be possible to find some truth about Beatrice in them.

>>4416047
except it was said in red that Kanon saved Battler.

>>4415997
Irrelevant, he could have mentioned that she didn't exist at any goddamn moment if he knew, probably would have been a fairly decent idea when he was mocking him about being caught in a logic error.

But I guess he was looking out for her, he really does care about her after all, what a great guy.

MARIA is Kanon, obviously.

>>4416038
>When Ep 5 came out, people were like HOLY SHIT FUCKING AWESOME ERIKA IS HILARIOUS GREAT COMEBACK BATTLER.
Only shonenfags thought that. It was pretty awesome, I agree, but the writing was terribly disjointed and subpar. Like I've said in another thread, Umineko is a lot like Twilight, the writing is bad, but it's popular.

>>4416054
Uu-, Beatrice "exists."
Yes, Beatrice-sama definitely exists.

>>4416095
"Dawn" of the Golden Witch.

'nuff said.

# Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
# She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
# Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
-increases it by one person.

How the fuck do you go around this.
Also since she didn't exist before episode 5, the whole DID/alias theory can't work as well.

>>4416096
Does she exist officially like Shannon and Kanon who are both employed?
No, seriously try to get some logic.

She increases "no more than x" by one person. This is irrelevant, as she is not a person. Hard numbers are NEVER ONCE USED IN THE GAME EVER until the end of ep6. Period. The red refers to "no more than."

X+0 = X

>>4416055
It's not just possible. Episode 1-4 are really all you really need to solve the mystery. Technically it can be solved by episode 2 it's just a lot harder.

Episode 5 and 6 are the core arcs they're meant to confirm your suspicions regarding the mystery, but they aren't necessary in solving it.

>>4416116
Beatrice is believed to exist just like Kanon is, so by the DID-centric theory she must be an alternate personality. You can't have your cake (Kanon counts as a person) and eat it too (Beatrice doesn't).

>>4416122
That's not how it works. She increases the count by one. Meaning it is "? + 1 = X"

>>4416132
Learn to read before writing.
Shannon and Kanon are both considered 2 different persons by the WORLD, meaning that they both have their own separate identity.
Beatrice doesn't have any papers or anything like this, right?
Therefore she isn't considered by the world, and so the red text doesn't work on her.

>>4416140
She increased the possible count, not the actual count. The actual count was never referred to.

Why is Erika afraid of specific numbers being used when she is present? Why is she afraid to have her own body's location defined? These actions make no sense if she really exists.

>>4416155
Problem is, this makes the story more of a silly clusterfuck

>>4416155
Are you retarded or something?
The guy before summed up quite well, it doesn't matter if the actual count wasn't stated, it's a fact that she increases it by one.
You can't get around this.
x is the actual count.
With Erika it's now x + 1, that's all.

>>4416132
How are you not understanding this? Are you purposely trying not to?

In the public view, Shannon and Kanon both exist. To use a movie I literally just saw like an hour ago, look at The Shawshank Redemption. Dufresne creates a person to hold all the money the Warden is embezzling in his bank account. The person does not exist, but he has all the documents needed to "prove" he exists in the public eye.

The situation could be like that with Kanon. He probably has social security, bank account, etc.

Beatrice, unless you'd like to argue she took the citizenship test, does not.

>>4416161
Then I assume you also reject DID and Shkanon theories because they're equally silly clusterfucks that resolve nothing.

>>4416130
By EP 2 a solution can be made. Hachijou made one from those two games alone, but she isn't sure if its accurate - she told so to Bern and asked her to make a game that will show the truth.

>>4416174
It's not a matter of rejection.
I want my story to be good, not just make sense with the stupid circumstances developed later on.
We just pick our poison now, rather then what fits the story and makes it presentable.

>>4416171
That red does not refer to the actual count. No actual count has ever been made or referred to at that point. The only "count" that has ever been made in the entire series is "no more than x."

It refers to "no more than x" and increases x by 1. But it doesn't matter because there's nobody who filled that slot.

It's exactly like Kinzo.

This came up way earlier in the thread, but this is a pet peeve of mine.

Shannon and Kanon are both 16. I'm sick of people making up fake ages for them.

>>4416197
>># Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.
It's not because this was used as well.
The actual count is x, it's not a question of "no more than" or other shits like this
And Erika increases it by one.
that's all.
It's no hard to understand.

>>4416210
So George is borderline pedo regardless of gender.

>>4416210
19 is the age of the true master of the island.

So who is it? If Shannon and Kanon are 16, and George is 22, and Jessica and Battler are 18. We were told their ages so they must be true!

>>4416223
That red is irrelevant to Erika because it outright says it doesn't count her. If she's a 1 or a 0, it doesn't matter to that red because she doesn't change the number.

There are 17 people, and she's not one of them. The red says so.

>>4416228
I thought of a possible solution: there was a person indicated in Kinzo's will and that person would become the new head. They would only be announced a year after Kinzo's death according to that will (1986). When that person was decided to be the new master, they were 19.

>>4416228
No one on the island is 19 that we know of. Including someone this late in the story would be unforgivable.
The adults obviously are not, Maria obviously is not, George and Battler are both men, plus Battler is the protagonist, the only way it works is if someone was lying, which is equally pointless, and a dick move.

>>4416258
So what we should just assume that's a complete fabrication? What does it mean then?

>>4416241
This red text was used in combination with the increased head count one.

Basically Erika increases the head count by one, besides her the number of people hasn't changed.
It's pretty straightforward.

Also Erika didn't exist prior to episode 5, so I don't see how you want to argue that she is an alias or a different personality of someone on the island.

>>4416263
I'd agree that it has to mean something, I'll rage otherwise, but the only way it means someones current age is if we were lied to about Shannon, Kanon, or with a large stretch, Jessica's age. Which is a bullshit strategy.

>>4416267
I fail to see how Erika not existing means anything about the person she's used as a smokescreen to hide. That person can have an influence on the games. Erika didn't (because there was no Erika).

>>4416228
At the very least, the given ages for them are the same. I'm just sick of seeing people say Shannon is 17 or 18 when we are never told anything of the sort.

>>4416280
what about this >>4416251

>>4416280
Well Shannon and Kanon come from an orphanage.
And it was stated several times that Shannon was very mature and almost like an older sister 6 years ago.

>>4416287
Fatass Pedo Endboss Confirmed.

>>4416295
Well the person would be someone on the island so.

>>4416228
George is 23 not 22.

>>4416283
But Erika's presence was stated.
Erika's name was stated several times in red.
She even created alibis.
So she must be there, one way or another.

>>4416228
>19 is the age of the true master of the island.

Only two people can fit that, Beatrice or Battler.

>>4416287
So Rudolf, Krauss, Eva, or Rosa is the true master?

Krauss is obviously out, because he's incompetent and probably doesn't have an evil bone in his body, Eva seems rather adamant to overthrow Krauss, so I doubt her, Rudolf is a man, so it seems unlikely.

Rosatrice sounds totally hot, though.

Aren't Erika's existence in Ep 5 and her existence (or lack of) in Ep 6 two unrelated things?

>>4416320
Rudolf being the master of the island would be pretty awesome though. Think about it:

Having sex with a God, having sex with Kyrie, being Jack Bauer and being the true master of the island.

He would become the best character in Umineko.

>>4416251
Kinzo had Jessica become the next head.
Just to troll everyone.

>>4416337
That would be extremely contrived.
So she is her own person in episode 5 and an alias/DID in episode 6?
Sure is great writing there.

>>4416356
it isn't really a troll, just placi9ng his hopes in the more competent generations

>>4416320
Master of Rokkenjima? Eh, Rosa, Eva, or Jessica seem likely, Shkanontrice is nothing but furniture.

>>4416363
People who defend Shkanon have no right to talk about writing quality.

>>4416363
You have a point, but you're talking about the man who pulled the golden text out of his ass here.

>>4416372
Yeah. Really, Shkanontrice IS terrible writing. The fuck does one kill a persona? OH NO HALP GUYS MY ALTER EGO NONA IS KILLING ME BLARGH

>>4416251
Another solution. Battler was actually born on October 4th. He was 19 in 1986 he just didn't know it. There is enough foreshadowing for the mysteriousness of his birth. So you I know I might not be wrong.

>>4416366
>more competent generations

Except it's stated in the game that Jessica isn't very good in school, is lusting for cock (she was staked with Lust in EP 2 after all) and not very elegant at all.

Yep, sure is competent here!

>>4416393
I say it now, and I will say it again.
Brace for Jessica being BATTLER. Sorta like Shiki versus SHIKI in Tsukihime.

>>4416372
I can and I do.
ShKanon is shit but at least it's consistent shit.
This whole ERIKA ONLY EXISTED IN EPISODE 5 is both shit, extremely contrived and would elevate Umineko in the ranks of the worst thing I've ever read.

>>4416393
Except it was stated that his birthday is on July 15th and if that isn't true then there would be no way for a babyswitch to occur with Kyrie.

>>4416392
if you completely renounce to being X forever and that personality can't come back, it's thechnically dead
you have to kill a persona at least in ep2 with the whole kanon is dead and died in this room

>>4416397
She only gets bad grades because she's too busy plotting how to kill everyone.

>>4416403
So then you are an idiot with no taste. Thank you. All I needed to hear.

>>4416392
Nobody ever said it was good writing, genius.
But only idiots expect good writing from Umineko.

>>4416354
And all at the age of 19, apparently.

It's just that Beatrice is sort of the embodiment of that, and he needs a more manly avatar.

>>4416397
It's stated that she's not a straight A student, but it's never stated that she's stupid. Oh noes, she said a stupid comment one time to Ronove, welcome to EVERYONE IN UMINEKO.
Besides, if anyone should get staked with lust, it should be Rosa.

>>4416411
And she's been doing that since she started school.
Riiiiight.

>>4416413
So explain to me how the ERIKA ONLY EXISTS IN EPISODE 5 could work.
Please, I'm an idiot, remember?

>>4416095

For a start Twilight is a highly bastardised series - it offers no real new takes on anything. Umineko is full of ideas, so it is in many ways the opposite of Twilight which basically tells you about a VAMPIRE and hopes you'll go "Oh wow, man, a Vampire!".

>>4416397
You know, if we were to go strictly by book-smarts, George would be behind everything.
Freaking George. The annoying fatass.

>>4416426
Erika doesn't exist. At all. Not in 5, not in 6, not period. She is a new magic piece and morons eat it right up because she's a DETECTIVE instead of a WITCH and they've been wanting a mysteryfag in the game for the longest time.

>>4416424
Yeah, Jessica doesn't seem to like studying pretty much, true....

>>4416438
in ep5 she should exist, just because

>>4416438
But she did increase the actual number of people on the island in Ep 5.

>>4416424
Well, she's not very bright, so it takes her a while to make a foolproof plan to kill everyone and fuck Battler's dying corpse before the boiler room kills everything.

Have Episode 5's Battler make the headcount and watch the confusion ensue.

You know what guys? You know what?
Ryukushi is the murderer.
Think about it, without him, no one would have died.

>>4416427

>Umineko is full of ideas

Oh wait, you're serious.

Let me laugh even harder

>>4416427
>Umineko is full of ideas
Bad ideas, but I will give you that.

>>4416457
Battlerstandingnexttotheculprits.jpg

>>4416438
So now explain to me slowly how this could happen:

# Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
# She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
# Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
# Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.

# Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.
# At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion.
# From 1:00 AM to 3:00 AM, Erika, Nanjo, and Gohda spent their time in the lounge on the first floor of the guesthouse.
# Erika was with Nanjo the whole time until 3:00 AM.
# Both your seal and your red truth are perfect. Nanjo had the alibi of being with Erika until 3:00 AM. And he didn't leave his room after 3:00 AM until morning.

# It was impossible to reach the second floor of the guesthouse without passing through the lounge, and impossible to reach it at all without Erika, who was in the lounge, knowing about it.
# And because of Erika's scientific investigation, further red had been added, Genji never left the mansion after 24:00...
# Eva's seal was of the same type as <Miss> Erika's. That is because this method of sealing was one that <Miss> Erika and Eva conceived of together after DINNER.
# As the detective, <Miss> Erika sealed all ENTRANCES.
# Passages that the detective cannot find are hidden PASSAGES.
# Therefore, there are no entrances that <Miss> Erika cannot find!!
# Lady Erika's lookout in the lounge was perfect.

Etc...

>>4416438
Then why is it that piece Erika still exists when Executed in the post-Episode Character TIPS while meta Erika is the one to have her Executed status be completely blank? If Erika truly doesn't exist and won't appear anymore, you'd think that _both_ meta and piece Erika would have their Executed status as completely blank.

>>4416463
Technically, he is right.
It's just that no sane person who tries to write a good story would implement them that way or combine them all together in such a nice little clusterfuck.

>>4416457
OH GOD, THE TROLL FACES! THEY BURN! THEY BUUUUUUUUUUURN!

Exactly who is in the dining room is never stated.

Erika was one of the people shown to be in the dining room. He/she wasn't really there; instead, he/she went back to the guesthouse.

>>4416482
Yeah but Erika's NAME was stated in red.
You can't become someone else like this.
And Erika didn't exist before episode 5, so you can't say that she is an alternate personality or alias of someone on the island.

>>4416463

Coming from a Tripfag named after a Tsukihime character, that's a bit on the ironic side.

Care to explain what Archetype Earth is? And Nasu's other kooky ideas? Lol

>>4416493
Yeah you can dogg, ain't never stated you cannot.

She's not a conscious alias. She's a magic piece overlaid on the actions of a real culprit. Like Eva-Beatrice, who only fucking retards believe represents Eva.

>>4416500
> Care to explain what Archetype Earth is?
Well, if you take the the "Type" in "Type Moon", "Type Venus", etc. to mean "Archetype", then the answer should be clear: the strongest being of that orbital body. The one that represents it, in a sense.

>>4416356

I personally like to beleive there is a conspiracy from the servants to kill Krauss, Natsuhi, and Jessica because ever since Kinzo died they've been investing in shit real estate and putting all the servants and the Ushiromiya into massive debt. (Episode 3 has a completely different culprit and is the only exception.) So the servants team up with one of the cousins or do so on their behalf without them knowing in order to make that person the new head. This explains Krauss's suspicions of the servants in episode 1 without Kinzo existing.

The basic idea is that the servants want a new head, but (with exception of Kanon and Gohda) they don't approve of Jessica and the main family being the next head. So they begin to chose whose furniture they want to be since Kinzo is dead and they can't follow his orders anymore.

So with this theory you can have a team Battler team George, Team Jessica, and a team Maria if you want to be ridiculous.

You can even argue that Shannon gave George Kinzo's ring in the proposal scenes since Battler didn't narrate it and it can't be trusted. We also don't know who has Kinzo's ring in all the episodes.

Oh and there is no DID in my theory.

>>4416509
Evatrice could never state in red that she herself killed anyone.

Beatrice could never state in red that she killed anyone, despite likely being a personality of someone on the island.

>>4416519
Couldn't or didn't?

>>4416509
Eva-Beatrice name was never stated in red.
If you want to create rules, play by them.

>>4416527
Names can be titles. Battler said so. Retarded as it might sound, Beatrice didn't shoot it down.

>>4416519
> Beatrice could never state in red that she killed anyone
Except Battler.

In fact, now that I think about it, Battler is the ONLY one she states that for. And after everyone else is dead, at that.

Beatrice = the boiler

>>4416524
If you want to open the pandora's box that is "What ifs", we'll be here for a good thirty full threads.

They never stated it in the first four games, which was the benchmark that you could safely solve the puzzle, so the likelihood of your statement is a stretch.

The culprit? HAHAHA, culprit?
Umineko is actually a harem comedy gone horribly, horribly wrong.
See, Shkanontrice is correct.

The problem is that Shannon loves Battler, she offered him her breasts after all, Kanon loves Battler, you can tell he's gay for him, and Beato was fuckobvious from the beginning. Jessica always had a tsundere complex towards Battler, and Rosa flirts with him all the time. Kyrie is into him because she's yandere and wants her son to fuck her like a dog, Natsuhi is totally dere-dere to him because she's moe like that, and Eva is impressed by his LOGIC.

Seriously, Umineko is just a huge-ass competition to get Battler's cock.

>>4416544
So if Erika is real and the culprit of ep6 this helps us solve the mysteries of 1-4 where she doesn't exist how?

Oh right, it doesn't.

>>4416534
Erika didn't exist before episode 5.
So where did one of the character get a title like this specifiably for episode 5 and 6 and how and why did he start using it?
And where are your clues.

>>4416536
Well, she use "I", rather than "Beatrice."

So yes, Beatrice is probably like what Bernkastel told us all along from the beginning.

>>4416554
No one is consciously using the title Erika. Why are you so fucking incapable of reading.

>>4416552
What the hell are you talking about, Erika was never the culprit.

Takano typically only killed Rika in Higurashi, guess she wasn't the culprit because of her lack of fuckin' sw33t headshots, right?

There can be more than one murderer, the culprit is whoever rigged the boiler room to explode exactly on the same day, likely.

>>4416577
Erika sez "I properly re-killed them" in red.

So if Erika is real, then a real Erika killed them.

If Erika killed people, Erika = culprit.

Erika cannot be real AND not the culprit of ep6. You people go through such ridiculous gymnastics because you don't think for even a second.

>>4416551
Would be better than the original plot.

>>4416563
Because Erika is a name, and therefore a "person", stated in red and that you can't create a fucking "person" like this easily, fucking retard.

She didn't exist before episode 5
Her presence is stated in red several times.
She increases the head count
She fucking has her own body in episode 6 and kills six people.

Seriously get some fucking reading comprehension.

>>4416577

Wouldn't it be cool if Kinzo was the culprit the whole time just because he set the boiler to explode on the day of the next years meeting? That'd be epic!

>>4416587
>>If Erika killed people, Erika = culprit.
Not really.
Culprit means the main mastermind, that's how it works.
That's why Eva, who killed Battler in episode 3, isn't the culprit.

>>4416593
This has already been explained.

She never existed at all, and Meta-Erika only existed from ep5 on.

Her presence is like Beatrice and the Stakes, a magic piece covering the actions of real people.

She increased the "no more than" headcount, the only such count that existed.

Her body is someone else's.

>>4416587
So by your logic, there is a fuckton of "culprits" in Umineko.

Hell, Eva killed at least Battler, she's the culprit, the answer was in front of us all along!

No, goddammit, that is not how it works.

>>4416473
>implying that red text is strict and cannot be played with in order to give you the wrong impression

# Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
# Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.

This is meaningless. the person count is nondescript, meaning she could raise the count from "There are no more than 17 people" to 'There are no more than 18 people" this is true irregardless of Erika's status as a "person" on the island, just as "there are no more than 9000 people" is true.

>all other bits of red text.

We have Beatrice stating that she was the one who handed the key to maria in red, and we have that everyone in the dining room recognizes kinzo when kinzo is clearly dead.

Don't you find it odd that there is no reliable or objective viewpoint from episode 5 onward? And also that Erika seems to be an amalgamation of the personalities of everyone on the island?

>>4416600
That's been my theory for a while (well, a version of it has been), and for now I'm sticking to it until proven otherwise.

So then why does Knox prevent the detective from murdering people? It says only they can't be "the culprit." Erika doesn't need to do the BOO-HOO I HAVE NO DETECTIVE AUTHORITY song and dance if she's allowed to murder. AFTER ALL SHE'S NOT THE CULPRIT DURP.

If you shitstains don't think a person who murders someone is a culprit well I don't know what the fuck you're doing here.

>>4416610
It only makes sense in your retarded brain, seriously.
You can't fuck up with the red text like this.
Beatrice as a fantasy person, or any other fantasy things, NEVER had their presence stated in red.
That's the difference between Erika and the stakes for example.

She has a name stated in red and is therefore a "person".

>>4416629
So Beatrice isn't a person because we can't prove she exits.

But Erika is a person even though we can't prove she exists.

OK.

>>4416617
It was stated that she increased the number of people on the island, not the cap on the number of people on the island.

>>4416645
Prove it. What count existed in the ENTIRETY OF UMINEKO at that point? "No more than." Give us evidence that the exact number of people was ever specified.

>>4416617
Beatrice says "I" when talking about the letter, she is talking about whoever she represents on the island.
And the Kinzo thing is a very simple VIDEO, Kinzo made his will that's way.

Both of these things don't fuck up with the red text at all.
Now Erika having her name stated in red COUNTLESS TIMES is different.

Guys "Shannon" and "Kanon" aren't their real names. Guess all that red about them applies to some other real person actually named Shannon.

This is what you are arguing when you claim stating Erika's name proves she's real.

>>4416617
> We have Beatrice stating that she was the one who handed the key to Maria in red
Yes. Meaning that the person who meta Beatrice at least partly came from was the one who gave Maria the key.

> and we have that everyone in the dining room recognizes Kinzo when Kinzo is clearly dead.
Three possibilities:
1) They were shown Kinzo's corpse
2) They were shown a video recording of Kinzo. A video will, possibly.
3) Battler's theory about the name "Kinzo" being inheritable – which was never disproved, by the way – is actually true.

> And also that Erika seems to be an amalgamation of the personalities of everyone on the island?
So which girl on the island was so paranoid about her boyfriend cheating on her that she turned into a stalker and he eventually dumped her because of it? Not even Rosa's that crazy.

>>4416645
Nope, it's only stated that she increases a number. It's never stated which number she increases. Interpret this however you wish.
>>4416629

"Beatrice" and "Kinzo" have both had their presences stated in red.

>>4416656
>># Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.
There's no "no more than" anywhere there.

THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IS EXACTLY THE SAME pretty definite, that's simple reading comprehension.

>>4416678
Beatrice as the person she is posing, never as a fantasy person or as a witch.
Kinzo is always stated in a way it avoid proving his presence.

>>4416656
The exact number of people DOESN'T HAVE TO BE SPECIFIED. That's like saying "X + 1 = X" because you haven't been told the value of X, even though X is a constant and doesn't change.

So can we move on with the retarded Erika doesn't exist shit now?

>>4416706
in computer programming you can have x = x +1.

The new value of x overrides the previous value. In this case, we can have X be any value as long as X is greater than or equal to Y

>>4416675
It's more the simple fact that she increases the count +1. You people who are claiming she doesn't exist are twisting that into some really fucking ridiculous ways.

She didn't exist on the gameboard before EP5, and now that she does, whatever the headcount is, her presence increases that number by one, it's not rocket surgery.

>>4416730
Yes. But that is an assignment statement, NOT AN EQUALITY STATEMENT.

In programming languages that aren't stupid and don't override the equals sign like that, you'd write the algebraic statement as "x + 1 == x" or "x == x + 1" (and in some you could even do "x + 1 === x" or "x === x + 1", if you want to make sure the data types are the same). Of course, the value you will get for that will always be "false", unless you're working with Boolean algebra, in which case the result will be true if x == 1.

>>4416749
What is this, the red that says Erika is +1 people?

>>4416764
In context. Battler asks "So what happens to the number of people that's on the island at the moment."

It would be pretty sick if Lambda then used the red text to talk about increasing some other number, like say the cap on the maximum number of people.

>>4416773
Hell, if she was allowed to talk increasing any arbitrary number of people then you might as well argue that she meant "Erika increases the number of people (who are not on the island) by one."

The real culprit (the master mind character) is obviously somebody who has or steals Kinzo's ring. Really now, think about it. If you have the head's ring you can make all the letters from Beatrice. You can be recognized as having the title of Kinzo. You can order all the servants around. It just makes sense.

So, uh. Erika's corpse washes up on the island. She increases the number of humans by one, but ignoring her, the number of living humans hasn't changed at all. What's the problem, exactly?

>>4417037
Bodies that are dead before the game begins don't count.