/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Beatrice

Kyrie.

Gohda

Witch did it with magic.

Maria is the enemy. I thought everyone knew this?

The butler

Kanon, he's such a dick

>>4378708
But Kanon doesn't have one.

Rosa did it. I'm sure of it.
-Rosa, Maria, and Battler have never been staked.
-She's the only mom to survive until the end (excluding Eva, who survived past the end)
-she lies about Kinzo, but has no reason to
-The only mom other than Eva to solve the epitaph
-Gives Battler a hint about the epitaph
-Only person other than Battler to reject the witch

Ryukishi

Jessica, just because I think she fits the role.

For ultimate mindfuck: Gohda.

Kinzo did it. At the end of the day, you know this is true as well.

High Tier:
Jessica, Shannon, Kanon, Kyrie
Acceptable Tier:
Rosa, Hideyoshi, Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa
Mindfuck Tier:
George, Eva, Natsuhi, Rudolf, Gohda, Krauss
Just No Tier:
Maria, Battler, Kinzo, Beatrice, Erika, Ange

Magical Gohda Chef End

>>4380391
I'd rather have Piss on a Fire end.

>>4380331
My version is somewhat similar to yours.

High Tier:
Jessica, Kanon, Kyrie, Rudolf
Acceptable Tier:
Rosa, Hideyoshi, Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa
Mindfuck Tier:
George, Gohda, Krauss
Just No Tier:
Maria, Battler, Kinzo, Beatrice, Erika, Ange, Eva. Natsuhi, Shannon

Genji. Since he can apparently throw knives, I imagine him as an old male version of Sakuya. Imagining him sneaking around and killing 6 people the same night with his knives is just too awesome.

>>4380440
If he stops time, it's easy for him to kill everyone anytime, any way he wishes to.

Something just bugs be about Rudolf. We know much of the core mystery revolves around Battler's past and around his true birth, Rudolf is in the best position to know the details of this. Also, he knows that he's going to die before the first twilight.

Kinzo, Gohda, Kyrie and Teatrice.
Any or all of them as the culprits would be God tier, and I'd have a newfound respect for Ryukishi.

>>4380461
It would at least make Battler's sin somewhat more obvious.

I think that the only truly innocent characters in the mansion who're at the conference are Natsuhi, Battler, Maria, Gohda, and Eva.

I can't see any of them committing murder, or having something to do with the greater scheme of things.

Kinzo via his will. So far it's the only theory that answers all three questions while imparting a sense of satisfaction.

>>4380490
>Maria
No, she knows who is Beatrice.

If only Battler had grabbed Shannon in ep 1 (of the anime).

Culprits tier:
George,Jessica,Kyrie,Rosa
Accomplices tier:
Genji, Kumasawa, Shkannon, Battler(!)
They know tier:
Rudolf,Hideyoshi,Eva
Derp tier:
Natsuhi,Krauss

>>4380490
>Eva

She shot Battler in the face Ep3.

Beatrice is Asumu.

>>4380545
Battler has never provided a testimony of this.

In ep4, who was Gohda, Kumasawa running from anyways?

>>4380554

It's still his POV when he dies.

>>4380533
ya... seriously, one comedy scene could end countless threads of the same fucking theory

>>4380554
Dude she shot him in the face, she is not innocent.

>>4380550
No, Hachijou Touya is Asumu. Which means Asumu is Featherine.

>>4380587
have you ever read And Then There Were None?Nearing the end?

>>4380545
Well, besides that.

And even then, that was totally, 100% forgivable. Eva was ill as fuck, getting practically delusional. Her husband, the only one she could truly depend on in that family was just after being murdered, after him saying that he'd stay with her and cure her with his 'magic hands'. Hideyoshi was the one person Eva could be herself with, and he got fucking axed off. All of a sudden, she's left with a bunch of people she doesn't really trust, and finds the pride of her life, and her only son, dead.

Eva was definitley not sane of mind when she shot Battler, and her shooting him was totally forgivable.

>>4380564
This. But keep in mind that Eva may have shot him because she was so paranoid at the time that she thought he was the killer.
In other words, Eva may not have killed anyone else besides Batler.

>>4380587

Eva is not the culprit. At worst, she's guilty of manslaughter.

>>4380536
Maria is Accomplice Tier.

>>4380601
Enlighten me

>>4380603
No matter how insane Rosa got she never shot Battler in the fucking face, at least Rosa leaves you to die and maybe shoots he later.

>>4380536
what about Nanjo

Kinzo end. That, or everyone planned to murder someone.

>>4380635
He probably forgot him. He is obviously accomplice tier.

>>4380635
well shit i forgot about Nanjo.Yeah he is definitly should be in Accomplices Tier.

Culprits tier:
George,Jessica,Kyrie,Rosa
Accomplices tier:
Genji,Kumasawa,Shkannon,Nanjo,Battler(!)
They know tier:
Rudolf,Hideyoshi,Eva,Maria,Gohda
Derp tier:
Natsuhi,Krauss

>>4380632 No matter how insane Rosa got she never shot Battler in the fucking face

She also has her daughter alive until the end.

>>4380606
She must be stupid then because Battler had no idea of the layoff of the goddamn mansion to be the fucking killer.

>>4380616
I will no accept Eva as a saint, she's capable of murder just by Ep3 and she comes to the island to blackmail Krauss for some money.

Pretty sure what happened in EP3 is that Eva snapped and killed Rosa and Maria, then spent the rest of episode feeling guilty as fuck to the point where she deluded herself into believing that all the murders were her fault. When Battler said she was the murderer, she totally snapped.

>>4380678
That guy said nothing about Eva being a saint. And all the parents intended to blackmail Krauss.

>>4380678
>I will no accept Eva as a saint

Nobody is saying that. You're deluded if think anyone in the Ushiromiya family is a saint.

>>4380665
I bet Rosa could go on even if Maria died a bloody death in the first twilight.

>>4380711
I don't think she could. Ultimately, Rosa does love Maria, as twisted as that love is.

>>4380678

>I will no accept Eva as a saint

I never said she was.

>she's capable of murder just by Ep3

After nearly the entire Ushiromiya family is dead, along with her husband and son.

>she comes to the island to blackmail Krauss for some money

So did Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, and Hideyoshi.

As long as Jessica isn't Beatrice I don't care how many people she's manipulating into murder.

>>4380736
then who is Beatrice?

>>4380736
She isn't Beatrice. EP6 pretty much proved this, unless you're deluded.

>>4380707
You're an idiot if you think Battler doesn't come really fucking close. Sure, he acts promiscuous when meeting up, but even that is just show for breaking the ice.

>>4380711
Protip: Maria will never die if Rosa is not dead. Because Rosa is the culprit.

>>4378670
Can somebody translate this?

>>4380736

Jessica being the culprit/mastermind is fucking retarded. If she really hated her family so much, she'd orchestrate her escape from the island, not the murder of nearly every major blood relative of hers.

You know what?
You know what I'd find HYSTERICAL?
If Jessica -did- have a witch-like persona.... but one that ain't Beatrice...

>>4380754
Battler acted like an immature brat in regards to his issues with Rudolf. His feelings were understandable, but he's far from perfect.

>>4380736
If Jessica is not Beatrice, you don't mind she being the culprit?What if Shkannon is Beatrice, but Jessica the culprit.Kinzo in some of the fantasy scenes are actually George....?

>>4380700
>>4380707
>>4380734
No earlier someone had Eva as truly innocent when clearly she is as shady as everyone else expect Natsuhi and Battler.

>>4380770

>>4380770
Jessie!

>>4380736
Who DO you want to be Beatrice?

>>4380787
...uh, but she is truly innocent. There's no way she could be the culprit at this point. Whether she's capable of murder or not is irrelevant. She isn't the murderer.

>>4380750
Nanjo's granddaughter.

>>4380545

I want it to be genji/kumasawa/ghoda/kyrie.

But that is highly unlikely that 2/4 of those are even close to being able to help out in some cases.

>>4380805
sup Witch Hunt, get back to work

>>4380784
Shkannontrice is fine. Jessitrice is not.

>>4380817
Doubletrice is superior to both.

>>4380817
Have you lost your mind? I don't care if you don't like Jessitrice, but come on.

>>4380826
Believe it or not, having one DID character with three personalities really does make more sense than TWO fucking characters both having cases of DID.

I cannot help but think Kinzo in the fantasy scenes could symbolize George manipulating Shkannon into murders.If someone could post the screenshot of George enjoying manipulating Shannon feelings..

Best Tier:
Magic (trolled oh so hard), Kyrie
Good Tier:
Eva, Rudolf, Jessica, Kanon, Hideyoshi, Nanjo
Okay Tier:
Gohda, Shannon, Rosa, Genji, George
Just no:
Kumasawa, Natsuhi, Krauss, Battler, Ange

Maria and Kinzo are included with magic.

>>4380804
Can you honestly say she's truly innocent, that if Hideyoshi is accomplice she is completely oblivious to everything.

>>4380832
Why does Beatrice have to have DID? Why does Shkanon have to be true?

>>4380801
I want Beatrice to be Beatrice.

In fact, fuck it, I still believe in the pony theory.

>>4380841
Knowing Hideyoshi, he'd probably try to keep dirty dealings like that a secret from Eva.

>>4380847
Because EP6. Deal.

>>4380820
Doubletrice - Because really, who CAN resist Battler's sexiness?


Also, George is a asshole impeding Battler's harem end.

What if Jessica and Shannon both have DID.and sometimes George too thinking he is Kinzo, the rightful heir to Shannon?YAAAAAAAAY

>>4380858
hurr durr

Rudolph or Kyrie

>>4380860
> Doubletrice - Because really, who CAN resist Battler's sexiness?
Actually, in my version only one of them created Beatrice to love Battler. The other had the Beatrice personality forced onto them by Kinzo.

>>4380832
Believe it or not, if you think Jessica can be ignorant of Shannon = Kanon without some kind of DID shenanigans of her own, you are going to get trolled. Hard.

>>4380854
Person defending Shkannontrice here. Believe me, I'm a huge shipperfag and I would love for Beato to be her own person. I'm sadly aware she isn't, though.

Though Pony Theory actually does make more sense than Jessitrice at this point, despite what deluded Jessitrice fags would like to believe. At least Lolitrice appeared to be timid from the one flashback she was shown in, with a personality different from the one we know. Jessica on the other hand...

BATTLER JUST DESCRIBED ME AS HIS IDEAL TYPE SO I HAVE TO CREATE A NEW PERSONALITY SO HE WILL LOVE ME :(

>>4380787
The funny thing about Eva is that she's probably the only Human character who's stated how she would kill somebody, and it was in a situation where she clearly hadn't killed anyone.

The last thing that she wants is to be blamed for the murder of her family members.

>>4380877
Dude, there's a whole fucking part where whoever made Beatrice says, "We will split one soul and share."

It's DID. Get over it.

>>4380856
Eva has his ball in a jar I call bullshit.

>>4380736
She isn't, see the end of EP 1 as she is next to Battler when Beatrice walks up to them. If you pay attention you'll notice all hints at who is the physical body of Beatrice points to Kanon.

Here is some proof, bad proof but proof none the less. The point is that Kumasawa and Genji are covering for Kanon. They know who beatrice is, which should be obvious as they are Ronove and Virgilia. It is also the only time they EVER are so forceful of opinion during a conversation, which most likely comes from Beatrice being present as the scene hints multiple times.

>>4380889
No, I'm pretty sure I know what's going on in Umineko because I actually pay attention to fantasy scenes instead of picking and choosing pieces from them and ignoring whatever doesn't mesh with my shitty theory.

>>4380894
Incidentally, I defend Shkannontrice over Jessitrice as well even though I'd prefer for her to be her own person. Jessitrice is fuck-off tier.

>>4380858
And there we go again.

>>4380901
Oh yeah, because that only has one interpretation and you should take it at face value. Of course.

>>4380894
Meh, people don't honestly believe that, it's established that Battler liked the original person enough to make her a promise of some importance. Beatrice didn't come as a result of a desire to seduce Battler, but rather, to love him.

Assuming Doubletrice, Jessica actually fits MORE, because she takes the mantle from Shannon, so to say.

>>4380815

Meanwhile, at witchunt.

What is the probability of Battler being one of the accomplices in the real tragedy of Rokkenjima?

>>4380936
Okay, dear, how else would YOU explain "From now I am not you. From now you are not me." and "We will split one soul and share"?

>>4380918
Kanon confirmed for Gaap.

Kumasawa is Beatrice

>>4380946
Fuck off, Fictionfag.
Battler is innocent, the dude is established to be a good man.

>>4380918
...I'm fucking laughing here.

>>4380954

No, she's virgillia.

So the teacher to beatrice.

So she taught beatrice HOW to do things.

Uh oh...

>>4380961
are you mad?

>>4380937
The entire game had Kanon, Shannon, and Beatrice represented as separate individuals. Ryukishi is obviously trying to show they are all different personas.

No one is "pretending," regardless of whichever ___trice theory you believe in. It's DID.

>>4380961
get out non-fiction

>>4380918

Seriously, Eva's explanation for why murdering everyone on the island solely for the headship/inheritance being a terrible plan should make it pretty fucking clear that the culprit is not interested in the headship/inheritance, which by extension establishes the culprit as Beatrice.

>>4380974
> It's DID.
That, or something even weirder. Like that "Magical DID" theory someone suggested a while back.

>>4380940
That's stupid.
If anything the girl Battler made a promise to had a reason to think he didn't like her considering he BROKE the promise and never went back.

Beatrice was made to take all the pain, an unfulfilled love where you lover made you a promise and never called back would fit well there.

Battler likes Kanon's persona. Kanon likes Jessica. Kanon has a persona that likes Battler.


I SMEEEEEEEEEEEEEELL SITCOM!

>>4380894
Stop trying to make this thread a Shkanontrice x Jessitrice thread, retarded faggot.
That being said, neutralfag here. I think Jessitrice is much more likely than Shkanontrice, though I also don't like it.

>>4380993
ShkannontricexJessicatrice is OTP, riiiiiiiiiight?

>>4380918
Quick, somebody post the bit with Maria saying that Beatrice "exists" in that room!

>>4380993
You aren't neutral if you think that Jessitrice, which is fucking stupid, is more likely.
Seriously, Jessitrice can't work, that's why all these people started these weird doubletrice or fusiontrice.

>>4380993
>I think Jessitrice is much more likely than Shkanontrice

But...why?

I honestly don't understand how anyone could think this.

>>4380988
Well, the only character who has an iota of foreshadowing of misunderstanding a relationship is Moon-chan.

Shannon recalls the "promise" to Battler pretty casually, which kinda goes against the concept of him remembering it.

But yeah, whoever is involved is a slut who deserves to die.

DURR HURR A RETARDED 9 YEAR OLD TOLD ME THAT BY STAKING PEOPLE TO DEATH I CAN GET A 12 YEAR OLD THAT I MET FOR LIKE ONE DAY TO LOVE ME SORRY FIANCE AND BEST FRIEND/FIANCEE I GOT PRIORITES

I think we can all agree that regardless of whether Shkanon is true or not, that Kanontrice is the case.

>>4381025
Are you an idiot? Maria didn't teach magic to Beatrice, Beatrice taught magic to Maria. If anything, Kinzo (and possibly Kumasawa, if she really did act like Virgilia and teach Beatrice's creator about magic) are the ones to blame for that.

>>4381025
But the thing is, regardless of whoever originally loved Battler, they've moved on. Shannon loves George, Jessica loves Kanon, Beatrice loves Battler.

>>4381025
Shannon doesn't have the same feelings as Beatrice, that's why she doesn't care about the promise anymore.

>>4380963
I didn't even cap the whole scene, but the end of it Maria enters and does THE SAME EXACT THING IN FRONT OF BATTLER. Battler gets so weirded out by it that he thinks they are looking at Beatrice behind him, when they are just looking at him.

>>4381019
>>4381021
The only stupid thing about Jessitrice is the reason people give her to murder. The "killing method" works just fine.
Particularly, I'm a fan of the two-groups theory. One probably being lead by Kyrie or Rosa, the other being lead by Kanon or Jessica.

>>4381043
Maria's influence caused Beato to be who she is. That's pretty explictly stated.

But regardless of who is behind the influence, Shkanontrice is so goddamn unlikeable.

She relies on breaking people's trust to murder them. Really. When she kills George, Jessica, she does so in Shannon's clothing, in Kanon's clothing, she does so betraying their trust. And they are -not- three different people, they are one soul.

Seriously, bitch deserves death more than Ter Loghain.

>>4381059
Yeah. In my recent reread I got to that scene and once they started going on about how BEATRICE IS IN THIS ROOM RIGHT NOW YOU JUST CAN'T SEE HER, I thought, "Damn... Shkannontrice is really real, isn't it."

>>4381059
If not for the red truth that Battler never kill anyone..i would have supported Battlerice loool.Joke aside, the murders i think are meant for Battler.

>>4381059

The scene where he's interviewing the servants about their experiences with Beatrice?

>>4381077
>>4381025
Beatrice is not the killer. Why on earth do people think that?

>>4381072
Um... But Jessitrice pretty much conflicts with all evidence we've been given about Beatrice's true nature. If you ignore all fantasy scenes, then yes, I suppose Jessitrice would make more sense. But that's like trying to solve a mystery by reading only half of the book.

>>4381072
The killing method doesn't work considering that:
-Jessica is pretty much always with Battler, you can't make a better alibi
-Beatrice appears in front of Battler at the end of the first game, Jessica is just behind him in that scene.
-She has no connections to Beatrice that we know of, nothing to foreshadow or clue us in into thinking that she could be Beatrice.

>>4381090
It's a possiblity that she is, if she's really someone's split personality. I'd like to think Ryukishi wouldn't pull something so cheap, though.

Then there is this thing about Amakusa killing Ange.What the hell guys.It is not possible to solve anything.Ryukishi is a bitch.

>>4381025
I've seen this before--Maria DID NOT teach anyone magic.

1. Maria has been meeting with Beatrice for years and years (six years, perhaps?) as revealed to Rosa.

2. At a certain point in Maria's life, occult imagery was introduced into her diary/book of spells. It had been only candy and sunshine before this point.

3. All of the occult references in Umineko are based on real world texts--that's where the seven deadlies and the 86 devils (gaap and ronove) come from. These texts are fairly dense and obscure and by no means the sort of thing a little japanese girl could get her hands on, let alone read and understand. Of course, there's a whole occult library in the mansion, so someone there must have taught her

>>4381079
Few people doubt Kanon may be Beatrice.
Many people doubt Kanon may be Shanon.
Kanontrice is a really good theory, Shkanontrice is not.

>>4381099
No, she's pretty obviously a scapegoat. sacrificialsheep.jpg, how she acted in EP5, etc.

She's not the culprit at all.

>>4381028
Basically, also there is no hatred for Kanontrice as Kanon is a bro and would make a delicious reverse-trap. Though the Jessitrice-fags(you can spot them a mile away as they think Jessitrice is still likely), might spout shit about it if Shkanon ever does get proven wrong because it doesn't support their gay little incest end.

>>4381121
She is the culprit, considering that meta Beatrice symbolize the entire mystery of Rokkenjima.
She is what trap the people on the island in its entirety, see the end of episode 1 for more details.

The scapegoat thing is more about her motivation.

>>4381099
The only things confirmed as "Beatrice"'s doing are writing:
-two bottled letters from EP1 and 2
-letters with the code to Ange's, Kumasawa's, Nanjo's households

Hey guys, did you all miss me?

>>4380974
Or, they are all separate people. How about that?

>>4381095
Beatrice is not the murderer.

>>4381077
>When she kills George, Jessica, she does so in Shannon's clothing, in Kanon's clothing, she does so betraying their trust.
Ya, except only Jessitrice fags care about Jessica and everybody else find her an annoying bitch, and everybody cheers when the fat ass dies. Being evil is a good thing in some cases.

>>4381117
But how do you explain the whole gun duel plot between Kanon and Shannon otherwise? How do you explain why Kanon would quit work and never see Shannon again if Shannon were to get married?

I don't particularly like Shkannon, but I think denying it is a bit silly at this point.

>>4381167
If I see that pony one more time...

>>4381180
This would be ideal for me, but it just isn't possible. That would go way over the people count.

>>4381191
>everybody cheers when the fat ass dies.

That was a nice ass though broh.

>>4381203
Kanon likes Shannon, that's why he kills.

>>4381188
Even if you think that, and you are wrong, Beatrice still appears in front of Battler at the end of episode 1.
And Maria immediately run up to her and acts like she knows her, indicating that this is the Beatrice that Maria is used to meet.

Jessica is there as well, George too.
So either Jessica can be at 2 places at the same time or she isn't Beatrice.

>>4381203
Because Kanon hates the fatass, and will do all in power to never deal with him.

>>4381215
But he has always been presented as being in love with Jessica, and was ready to kill Shannon so he could have a chance at happiness.

>>4381213
The number of people in Rokkenjima is both 18 and 17. Both were stated in red. Why do you say it's 17?

>>4381223
But staying on the island wouldn't force him to interact with George. All leaving the island would do is separate him from Jessica.

>>4381225
>always been presented as being in love with Jessica
Never in the detective POV.

>was ready to kill Shannon
When????

>>4381236
Because it was stated in red. "The 18th person" thing was Erika's title rather than an actual head count.

>>4381148
> She is the culprit, considering that meta Beatrice symbolize the entire mystery of Rokkenjima.
> She is what trap the people on the island in its entirety, see the end of episode 1 for more details.
So... Meta Beatrice consists of:
1) The culprit or culprits
2) The typhoon
3) The boiler explosion at the end of every game
4) The person created to love Battler (1 and 4 may or may not be the same)

>>4381191
Meh, I find the concept of an innocent person dying for stupid shit enraging. George can go ahead and die for all I care, Sir They're Just Pieces So Murder Is Ok, but Gohda, Battler, Jessica, Natsuhi, Krauss, Hideyoshi, and Eva deserve better.

>>4381251
> When????
Episode 6.

>>4381160
You forgot "writing in Maria's diary".

>>4381256
Yes.
Probably not the typhoon though.

>>4381253
The number of people is seventeen because they didn't count Erika as a human, she is a witch.

>>4381251
Okay, forget it. If you want to doubt every little thing that hasn't been stated in red, we're not going to get anywhere.

I, for one, have enough faith in Ryukishi to make us read WORDS WORDS WORDS about a couple that was never actually relevant at all. Especially in a story where the goddamn theme is about love.

And he was in a duel to the death with her in EP6, bro.

>>4381203
A DID on an higher plane, but Shkannon is only here to give us a hint. Ryukishi said that he will NOT give the answer. So it must be a kind of HINT.
And I don't remind Kanon saying the same thing.

Kanon is the mastermind
Rosa and Kyrie are accomplices
And the Fukuin House pays everybody off

>>4381265
In the meta world?

>>4381277
>to believe he wouldn't make his read

I fucked up there. Typo fix.

>>4381256
Don't forget
5) The personification of the legend of the witch

>>4381213
No it wouldn't. Someone is disguising as Beatrice (I don't care about your stupid DID interpretations of the monologue). Erika doesn't exist. Shannon and Kanon are different people.

>>4381285
We're never really told. It could just as easily be a room in the mansion that no one visits during the game and thus can be used by the fantasy side.

>>4381277
I always find it ironic when a Shkannon supporter talks about love. Seriously.

>>4381277
>If you want to doubt every little thing that hasn't been stated in red, we're not going to get anywhere.
Doubting the white is okay, going against the red, which is what you shkanonfags do, is breaking the rules.

>>4381256

Put in Kinzo's lost love in there too.

>>4381259
>Eva, Hideyoshi, and Jessica

If Eva is willing to shoot Battler in the face, she deserves her death with Hideyoshi. Jessica may be the killer so she can die too.

>>4381280
If Kanon were to win, he would take care of both Jessica and Shannon on Rokkenjima, and Shannon wouldn't be able to get married.

The start page to EP6 says "These are not hints but confessions." And it's not like Shkannon solves the entire mystery.

>>4381297
You say Erika doesn't exist, yet she existed in Episode 5. Oh, yes, and she cut the heads off of five living people in Episode 6. People who don't exist can't chop the heads off of living people.

>>4381305
Um, why?

any as long as it's not fucking anti-magic bullshit

>>4381299
So they try to kill each other away from the eyes of the detective? Quite interesting.

>>4381315
She never existed. "Erika" is just the title that the culprit takes.

>>4381306
How does it break the red?

And not taking white at face value is fine. Doubting entire characterizations and relationships that have been presented for all six episodes? That's idiotic.

>>4381319
Because it makes the possibility of love for either Jessica or George or both impossible. Not to mention makes a farce of half the game.

>>4381339
>Doubting entire characterizations and relationships
Reminds me of Shkannontrice.

>>4381347
Nooot really. Sure, it does make love impossible, but the logic that if they don't get a happy ending then the relationship is completely null and void is ridiculous. And how does that make a farce of the game?

>>4381315
She existed at the time she did that. Not when she stated her last red sentence.

>>4381269
Ya, that too...

Whether "Beatrice" murdered people or not, she does have relations with everyone's death, since the bottle letters described the twilight events in "great details"...and mainly Maria's death, since the bottle letters contained Maria's jawbone

>>4381351
Only if you subscribe to the idiotic theory that they are just "pretending." Separate personas that happen to be in the same body doesn't mess with either of those two things at all.

>>4381312
Eva shot Batter because as Rosa says, you can tell someone isn't the culprit if either:
1. It's you
2. It's a corpse.

Eva was alone with Battler. Mad with sorrow, and heartbreak, she saw that Battler MUST have been the killer(much like Battler says that Eva MUST be the culprit at the end)

Seriously, you can't blame Eva too much for that.

>>4381338
Battler controlled all pieces besides Erika, which means anyone who could have been the culprit that Episode was controlled by him, and thus would not be the culprit. He set up that gameboard so that there would be no culprit. In other words, Erika's actions were those of a piece not under Battler's control, meaning she couldn't be any of the original people on the island.

>>4381339
>6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

>>4381357
One person goes around pretending to be two people, and no one notices....Either George or Jessica is gay....are you kidding me?

>>4381367
Uh... the reason for that is because Episode 1 was just as much a gameboard as all the others. It wasn't the original Rokkenjima.

>>4381380
>pretending

Oh, so you haven't been reading any of my posts.

>>4381361
So... you're saying that she existed on the gameboard for the majority of Episode 6... and then suddenly stopped existing on the gameboard.

What?

>>4381373
Wrong. Battler is not under control of the pieces.

The real tragedy of Rokkenjima is not EP1, is it?

>>4381347
Love isn't impossible in the Golden Land.

>>4381394
I don't mean control like a puppetmaster, I mean control like a play director.

>>4381389
Changing clothes and padding is pretending, bro.Whether they realize it or not.

>>4381396
Yeah, it isn't. We have no knowledge of the events on the original Rokkenjima.

>>4381393
She wasn't on the gameboard anymore. The game had already ended.

>>4381411
...Shit, you're right. It was stated the game ended after Erika had entered the guest room.

>>4381398
The Golden Land and the Meta-World is a false ideal for true love.
Maria and "Rosa" can pretty much show you that.

>>4381394
>Battler is not under control of the pieces.
>under control
Not the guy who wrote that, but I'm laughing so much here you wouldn't want to know.

>>4381403
But they really are a separate persona and their feelings are genuine.

I thought it was very clear in this episode that things not yet stated in red were not fixed. That is, the board consists of constraints created by red text, and a fog of possible worlds, kakera, that are permitted by those constraints. That fog is the witch's darkness.
The game master narrates a story to the detective. The story contains several witch illusions, puzzles which the game master claims can only be solved by supernatural means. Each puzzle is posed in the form of a set of constraints, and must have at least one non-supernatural solution permitted by the constraints. The game master loses if all puzzles are explained, so his job is to conceal the possible solutions using misleading narration and constraints.
As Erika correctly realized at the end of EP6, the game master isn't constrained to just one solution. If the detective discovers one solution, and the game master has two, he can just add a constraint to remove the detective's solution from the board. This is permitted so long as at least one explanation remains possible. If it becomes clear that the GM doesn't know a possible solution, then a logic error occurs and the GM loses. In order to prevent that from happening, the GM is obligated to have at least one solution in mind, but until it becomes 100% required on the board by the constraints, that solution remains something that only exists in the GM's head.
Most constraints are added by the game master, but the detective is also able to add constraints under very limited circumstances where she is able to state something with certainty. This is because the detective's actions are under her own control, and she can do some things which have a certain result, such as cutting off a person's head.

>>4381417
Yes, she was thrown away by Bern as the failure of a piece she is.

So... Erika did not exist at the end of Episode 6, because the sixth game had come to an end prior to that moment. Kanon was able to exist outside of the cousin's room/neighboring room because he also has the name Kinzo, and Battler stated that Kinzo was exempt from the "everybody else" red text. After rescuing Battler, the Kanon personality ceased to exist and the Beatrice personality became dominant?

>>4381430
Normally this isn't a problem since the GM can modify any upcoming puzzles to take the new constraints into account.

What we can determine from the rules and from Battler's talk with Lambda is that neither player automatically knows the full extent of the witch's darkness. The GM's solutions are basically equivalent to blue theories. In other words, both players have the responsibility of generating theories, based on their own beliefs about what the constraints permit. More theories can occur to them as the game progresses, and the GM will typically not roll over and die just because the detective advanced one theory, so it's essentially a contest of which side can come up with more explanations for each puzzle.

>>4381338
hurp derp

>>4381423
And nobody realizes they're the same? Are you kidding me?

>>4381442
hurr durr

>>4381430
>>4381437
So it's basically making up a story as you go along?

>>4381436
Kanon is Beatrice.
Kanon is not Shannon.
Game solved.

>>4378694
>>4380240
>>4380391
Anyone else want this? I think this would be perfect

>>4381448
I never said it wasn't stupid, just very likely that it's what Ryukishi is gunning for.

>>4381436
No, Erika did not exist because she doesn't exist. Erika is just a title. Kanon solved the epitaph and took the "Kinzo" title. He went to rescue Battler, then he succumbed to poison of some sort or was killed.

>>4381470
Same guy here.
Though this works, I'd rather believe there is something nobody though of. It's much more natural.

>>4381476
Without love, it can't be seen.

>>4381434
Uh, no, where do people keep getting this from? Bern had absolutely nothing to do with Erika's death. She wasn't even around for her last moments because she was abducted by Featherine.

>>4381477
THEN WHO WAS DRESS?

>>4381502
?

so what is the most popular theory the Japanese create?

>>4381488
How do some guys know about Featherine when 6 isn';t finished yet? I don't trust anything you say about 6.

>>4381477
Do you mean to say that Erika was a different person in Episode 6 than in Episode 5? Because it was stated in red that she increased the original headcount by 1.

>>4381514
6 is finished. Several of us have played it.

>>4381477
Kanon does not exist anymore because Kanon is a title he only can use while working for Kinzo, not his real name.
When he rescued Battler, he left his job and was fired, so he can't use that name anymore.

>>4381313
IDC about the screen title. Ep3, equal difficulty? we still have not found the truth about ep3 now. EP1, you just have to read? Still the same.

Go read ryukishi's interviews. He clearly says that he don't want to give the answers like in higurashi.
Does not solves the entire mystery? It still give directly the answer. to all the "magic" part.


>>If Kanon were to win, he would take care of both Jessica and Shannon on Rokkenjima, and Shannon wouldn't be able to get married.

Still a guess. We must not believe what we are seeing, but we must absolutely believe in guesses?

And once more, one WHOLE episode on that, and not one red truth saying it clearly. What do you mean, suspicious?

>>4381514

...seriously?

>>4381514
Because the Episode 6 hidden tea party has already been translated.

http://pastebin.com/m462f3d0a

>>4381535
Yea. Witch Hunt isn't done with 6 yet. You can't be sure what you read is correct yet.

>>4381434
S-s-hut up, Furudo Erika is a miracle of the universe.

>>4381530
That's fine by me, too.

>>4381534
> IDC about the screen title. Ep3, equal difficulty? we still have not found the truth about ep3 now. EP1, you just have to read? Still the same.
Except what's stated there matches up with what's said in-game in Episode 5. EP2 is the hardest, EP3 is the easiest, EP4 has a difficulty in between.

>>4381558
EP5 is labeled as easy.

>>4381544

Because WH are the only ones who can read Japanese. Fucking brilliant.

>>4381565
Is the text intended as a message from the Game Master, Featherine, or Ryukishi07 himself? If it's the first one, then it makes sense for EP5's to be misleading, considering who the GM is for that Episode.

>>4381558
>>4381565
>trusting the game descriptions

>>4381576
Like I trust a bunch of stupid anons on /jp/. No thanks I'll wait for the Witch Hunt version before drawing conclusions.

>>4381558
Honestly after EP5 people were starting to make some worthwhile conclusions (the biggest of which was the Taiwan theory and Large Bombs), but Shkannon was such a curve ball that it feels like we've been pushed back to square one with theorycrafting, partly because something like a mental illness is almost impossible to construct a "why dunnit" from.

So out of curiosity, what's EP6's game description? "ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID?"

is the mysteries dont transfer well to western audiences or is it because we're bunch of idiots prone to eat up theories that show the slightest hint of truth?

>>4381598
I forget all of it, but part of it says "There are no longer any hints, only confessions."

>>4381590
Don't try to discuss this stuff then, smartass.

>>4381598
It was something like "There is no difficulty, no hints, only confessions" or something like that.

>>4381598

At this point there is no difficulty. This is no longer a hint, but a confession.

Or something like that.

Erika is not the detective. She killed people, the detective can't be the culprit, so her POV is not reliable.
Kanon doesn't exist neither inside nor outside the guest room. He is on the very limit of the room.
He can be there because Erika is not the detective, she may have seen him and tell us readers she didn't.
How's that, eh?

>>4381605
Dunno. Is 2ch the same way?

>>4381590
Go to
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/
And enjoy your spoilers.

>>4381616
She received detective's rights later on, sorry.

>>4381624
>implying I haven't been there.

>>4381558
How are we supposed to knows for sure the difficulty of a game without knowing the answer...?

>>4381632
Not in red.

>>4381636
Ask Battler.

>>4381616
Erika is a personality of Battler. He is actually the culprit for all episodes, we are just only given narration by his "Battler" personality.

What do you think, everyone?

>>4381653
You mean... Battler is the little girl?

>>4381653
Very <good>

>>4381641
We'll never get anywhere if you're going to play that game.

>>4381624
Yeah, and then let's JUST read the red text, and let's make theory ONLY with the red text. If Ryukishi wanted to troll the fanbase, it would be really easy.

You're making Dlanor cry, /jp/. I hope you're happy.

>>4381653
Better than Shkanontrice.

>>4381653
Are you an idiot?

If it is stated in red that Battler never kill anyone then what if the Battler we all knew and love have different name?Does it mean the red truth doesn't apply and make it possible for our Battler to commit murders?

>>4381683
I bet you'd get a theory more likely than Shkannontrice if you did that.

>>4381683
You need to learn the context itself is in.
Also, you are missing clues due not to knowing what the detective sees.

>>4381687
Randomly reminded me that I still haven't seen Milk Candy's EP5 doujinshi floating around yet...

>>4381689
Both are better than Jessitrice.

>>4381713
Butthurt Shkanonfag thinking that everyone who dislikes Shkanontrice is pro Jessitrice.
I say it's better than BOTH together.

>>4381709
What's the title of it? All I've seen are the loli one and the goatrape one:
http://rapidshare.com/files/344100763/_c77___actively_dawn__milk_tea_party__umineko_.rar

>>4381726
I hate both of those, so I agree with you.

People who doubt everything that isn't said in red are just as bad as Erika. You do realize that Ryukishi was making fun of you in EP5, right?

>>4381653
I would have says of alternate characters. For me she have a lot of similarities with Maria in ep5, for exemple. Well it's just an idea.

>>4381726
EP6 spells it out pretty plainly, denying Shkanon at this point is futile. I don't like Shkannontrice much more than Jessitrice, but that's just because Jessitrice is the absolute worst tweest ever.

>>4381750
Sup Shkannonfag, how goes that overconfidence?

>>4381653
Going with this theory, it make sense that Erika put all blame on Natsuhi because Battler is in denial.Everyone, the Battler we all knew and love don't really exist and are just remnants of his innocences!

>>4381708
Yeah, I was ironical, don't worry.

You guys sure are retarded.
The culprit obviously can't be Erika, she wasen't present in the first episodes.
Battler is a fag, Jessica is a fag, Kanon is a fag, Shannon is a fag, the MILF are too sexy, the servants are too boring. The only posible culprit is Nanjo.

>>4381750
Your red truth?

>>4381759
<perfect> logic. Either way, it has something to do with Nanjo and his granddaughter. That gives him a possible motive to either be the culprit or an accomplice.

>>4381730
That's the problem; I don't know it. All I know is that it's by the same people who did the Alister Stella Gray doujinshi (I think), and that this is the cover.

>>4381759
that's why she can be a cloak for the culprit. You're pretty narrow-minded.

>>4381773
A cloak for the culprit? Come on Ryukishi is a fucking troll, but something like that?

>>4381753
Enjoy your denial, then.

>>4381753
Different guy, but it's not overconfidence. You guys misunderstand. I don't even LIKE Shkannon. I just think the way you guys completely write it off because it wasn't said in red text is ridiculous. Ryukishi would not go through the trouble of having the whole love duel shit take up half of EP6 if it didn't mean anything.

>>4381741
No, he was making fun of those who twist the game so the culprit is the one who they want to be.
Kinda like Shkanontricefags and Jessitricefags, denying the red, Erika denied the "Kinzo is dead at the start of all games".

>>4381771
Yeah, I don't think that's by the same people. Here's a sample of Milk Candy's/Milk Tea's, though.

>>4381799
It meant something, but obviously NOT what you think it meant.

>>4381799
It's still not proven without the red. What, did you give up thinking that easily? You're clearly in favor of it, acting as you are.

>>4381799
Actually, we write it off because we were told in red that it isn't.

>>4381808

And here's a sample of an EP6 doujinshi by the same person/people.

>>4381799
And it could means something else that this crappy DID. Or even DID in a different direction. The current way of thinking with Shkanon is just as bad as Battler in ep2.

>>4381804
That too, but he was also pretty clearly making fun of people who go "WASN'T SAID IN RED? NEVER HAPPENED." Erika was supposed to represent everything that was wrong about how the hardcore anti-fantasy fanbase approaches the mystery.

>>4381837
Without the red, nothing can be proven. I think you're the one who got tricked with this interpretation you have. Is this why some of you cling so much to Shkannon?

>>4381834

>>4381817
I'm in favor of Lolitrice, but I'm not in fucking denial. If you only trust what's in red, you're never going to solve the mystery. The fantasy scenes are important for solving the mystery; Ryukishi has confirmed this.

>>4381815
>>4381835
Shkannon is the only way to explain the whole shit that went down in meta world without gaping holes. If you can prove me wrong, please do.

>>4380193

-Uses the words 'furniture', and ahaha.wav too.
-Maria learned magic from "Beatrice"
-Rosa made Maria put the epitaph in her notebook exactly.

>>4381852
With the red either if you take it that way. Red is a matter of trust, and I trust Beato but not a bitch like Erika.

>>4381852
Go back to stalking your boyfriend, Erika.

>>4381866
>>4381859
>>4381867
I find it amusing how you can so calmly base these theories of yours wihtout a red backdrop. It's all useless like that you see? You all have to know by now that without the red, anything can be wrong.

>>4381876
Please find a way to solve EP6's logic error without Shkanon.

>>4381837
Beato made it solvable. It means you can solve it alone by reasoning. Even if you have a lot of possibilities, you can deny those looking with an eye of acceptance and an eye of negation, until only one theory is left.
Reading only the red is stupid, but you have another way of disproving something, which is the detective POV. This is your eye of negation.
Your eye of acceptance, however, is your creativity, not what the game shows you. This is the truth that Battler showed us in EP5. Everything not proven is darkness until it is the only way out.

>>4381863

>>4381799
It's not that people right it off, it's that people don't want it to be. There's 2 main reasons here why people hate it, one being that if makes Shkanontrice the only ending and two it makes Beatrice into a crazy slut. There are three groups of people that smack it around: idiots just being silly, Jessitrice fags that do everything in their power to prove their shit theory, and people who just generally hate Shkanon. Also even if small, there is still the chance that Ryukishi really is trolling us. Anyway there are a decent number that hope it is a troll as it gives us a possibility for Kanontrice, which even if not the best is still better than both Shkanontrice and Jessitrice.

>>4381889
read
the
fucking
thread

>>4381889
Kanon solved the epitaph and became "Kinzo". Kinzo's location was never stated. He saved Battler. Then he died somehow, possibly by poisoning and/or was no longer "Kanon", the furniture.

>>4381876
If you went to trust that, enjoy not reading the reader's TIPS.

>>4381889
You all stop thinking just because you can't reach an answer? Even if you cannot with your brain, doesn't mean that ShKannon is the only option that exists. This is exactly how Battler thought in Ep2. As I've said, never accept ShKannon as long as there is no red for it.

>>4381866
Red is the bond of trust between author and reader.
The author wanted you to solve it, so he made red to aid you.
However, in order to solve it, you need to combine reds and blues to make gold.

>>4381910
couldn't he have lost his name of Kanon and becoming "Joshua" in the room for a x reason?

>>4381910
# I'll acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room until the logic error occured, the only ones who entered or exited the room were you, Battler, and Kanon.
# I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people.
# [Definition check. That "three people" refers to the number of bodies, correct? That means three bodies went in and out, right?] Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people.

>>4381947
Go read the autor himself. A bond of trust between BEATO and the reader.

>>4381951
He can be both Kanon and Kinzo at the same time. After all, he's the head of the family, but he's still Kanon.

>>4381951
>>4381910
Also, funny bit about Kinzo:
[Request: All other people are in the cousins' room!] [Refused. This would imply Kinzo's corpse is in the cousins' room.] [Since he's confirmed not to exist, please exclude him.] I acknowledge that all other people are in the cousins' room.

>>4381951
Kanon entered, inside he was no longer Kanon. How does this go against the red again?

>>4381028

>>4381973
Kanon is his furniture name. He loses it as soon as he stops working for Kinzo.

>>4381996
Jessitrice is still possible.

What if Shannon exists as a separate being than Kanon, and Kanon who beatrice starts going through an identity crisis after Battler shows up only gets worse and starts to think he is many people including Shannon ever now and then?

>>4381983
Battler gave the ring to Kanon inside the closet.

>>4381876
I base my theories off my trust in Ryukishi as a writer, something he stressed was important for solving the mystery in EP5. He doesn't add entire subplots for no reason. When:

-George/Shannon, Kanon/Jessica, and Beatrice/Battler are presented as Kanon couples
-Shannon and Kanon cannot accomplish love at the same time
-Shannon and Kanon talk about how they should have tried to kill each other sooner
-When Shannon wins, Kanon and Beatrice disappear and are absorbed by her, but they say "they're still present, they just can't be seen"
-Beatrice presents a mindfuck riddle that can actually be solved by Shkannon

Ryukishi is probably prodding us in a certain direction.

>>4382002
Says who?

>>4381983
Kanon don't need to become Kinzo, he may become his old self.

>>4382025
In EP5. All children from the orphnage who come to work in the mansion receive an alternative name which ends with "non".
I personally liked Manon.

>>4382017
I hate to say it, but no red. You can't trust anything not in red. What, you are going to place your entire analysis on 'trust' of the author? That seems foolish, considering he may have been trying to mislead you. That possiblity exists.

>>4381986
>>4382002
I don't remember the exact setup of the riddle, but I'm pretty sure in order for Kanon to get out of the room in the first place, he had to share a name with someone in the other room.

>>4382027
>>4381910
That's fine, but Kanon was in the cousins' room. How did he get out?

Red = sealed.

>>4382017
Wow, you take a bunch of bullshit as they were actually stated in the game. Maybe you have DID yourself?

>>4382039
I don't think basing my answer on trust in an author is stupid when he spent all of the previous episode telling us how important that trust is to solve the mystery.

And there was red involved. See: Beato's riddle.

>>4382052
He was never in the room to begin with. And neither was he in the neighboring room. Because he is Kinzo, he was able to bypass the red text for both rooms.

>>4382052
That picture is stupid. Kanon AND Shannon are not in the guest room.
Not only that, there are two Kanons!

>>4382039
Having a blind trust in the red is foolish as well.

>>4382050
Isn't Kanon = Beatrice though? Couldn't Beatrice have entered, then Kanon took over?

>>4382061
You will never understand Umineko because you only look at it as raw facts instead of a story. You don't even understand the themes that Ryukishi has been presenting to us with less subtlety than James Cameron.

>>4382063
The entire thing is based on misleading information. You can't trust your interpretation of what the author meant. How foolish. And the red doesn't confirm all of your points, much less ShKannon yet.

>>4382063
Goddamn it, "trust in the author" IS the red.

>>4382052
He was never said to be in the cousins' room, fag. Battler said "everybody else". This excludes Kinzo.

>>4382075
No. Red is always true, although it is open to interpretation. The only thing you can doubt about red is your interpretation.

>>4382075
see
>>4382108
You can only solve it with the red. Only your stupidity can mess up the results.

>>4381892
>>4381996

... I prefer Rosatrice.

>>4382080
I think you meant the opposite.

>>4382096
It's more than just that, though that is part of it.

>>4382088
It's not "misleading information" so much as a misleading format.

For example. Do I think Kyrie and Rudolf really fought off pantless magical girls with guns? Of course not.

Do I think the characterization and sequence of events in the scene actually contain importance and hints to the mystery? Of course I do.

>>4382071
Shannon WAS in the guest room. Kanon was also supposed to be in the guest room before his duel with Shannon. That's where is body is disapearing.

>>4382100
>>4382068
[Request: When the locked rooms were destroyed, no one existed inside the rooms except the victims (Natsuhi, Eva, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, and Battler.)] I acknowledge it.
# [Request: Those who are in the neighboring room are Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo!] I acknowledge it.
# [Request: All other people are in the cousins' room!] [Refused. This would imply Kinzo's corpse is in the cousins' room.] [Since he's confirmed not to exist, please exclude him.] I acknowledge that all other people are in the cousins' room.

Try again!

>>4382131
....did you even read what I wrote, or even what you posted? Kanon = Kinzo. The "everybody else" excludes Kinzo. Do I need to state it in less words so you can understand?

>>4382096
.. Go read the author's interviews, one more time.

>>4382131
If Kanon = Kinzo, then both the corpse of the former Kinzo and the living body of the current Kinzo would be excluded.

>>4382085
You will never solve Umineko because you think everything the author tells you is true.
In fact, the author himself told you there are no hints in EP6, and you use those as hints instead of interpreting it like he wanted to confuse you.

>>4382124
You idiot. It's misleading because it is open to multiple interpretations based on the viewer's mindset. And your mindset is to 'trust the author over the red'. You can be so easily mislead by not paying closer attention to the least nonmisleading information given: the red truth.

>>4382131
How does that prove anything? Nothing was said about Kanon. If Shannon and Kanon are the same person, then they both are in the room together and counted. It doesn't conflict with the red.

>>4382152
>>4382149
Please, do tell me another way to interpret the events of EP6 without gaping holes. I'm all ears.

>>4382131
So Shannon exists at the same time as Kanon? And they are in different rooms?
And Shkanontricefags want US to disprove their point when they just do it themselves?

>>4382152
>And your mindset is to 'trust the author over the red'.

Ah, I never said anything about that, by the way. Doubting the red would be just as stupid as doubting everything in white. I never said anything about red not being true.

>>4382172
Read the thread. Many other theories are being presented, worked on, and made up even now, with this new Kinzo=kannon. Above all, base your theories on Red Truth alone, and not trust. Do you forget what Erika said in Ep5? The true theory will come to light by using the red alone.

>>4382155
It doesn't explain the part that Kanon never left the room though.

>>4382179
When was Kanon ever mentioned?

>>4382191
He was poisoned and died, there's a possible explanation for you.

>>4382142
The people who were in the neighboring room at the time it was sealed were Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo. And, there were exactly five people in the neighboring room. No one other than the people corresponding to those five names existed! All names refer only to the actual people!

Unless you're going to ignore "all names refer only to the actual people" as well, just to make your silly theory work.

>>4382191
Kanon is also Beatrice. Once s/he reached the closet, s/he ceased to be Kanon and became solely Beatrice.

>>4382208
What does that have to do with Kanon? Shannon and Kanon are different people....

>>4382190
I'm not asking for a solution to the riddle. I'm asking for what the significance of the conflict between Kanon and Shannon in meta world was.

>Do you forget what Erika said in Ep5?
Dude. Erika was supposed to represent all the WRONG ways to solve Umineko.

>>4382222
Subjective. That is your interpretation of the character, not mine.

>>4382218
>And, there were exactly five people in the neighboring room.

>>4382190
> Above all, base your theories on Red Truth alone, and not trust. Do you forget what Erika said in Ep5? The true theory will come to light by using the red alone.

> R07: Umineko contains both a reality part and a fantasy part. From the reader's point of view, those who believe only in mystery would treat the fantasy portion as rubbish and vice versa. Thus only those people who do not deny reality and fantasy would comprehend the story's intriguing quality. That's what it means by "you can't see it without love". Umineko is a work that cannot be fully understood if one weren't able to simultaneously comprehend the two opposing world views. If one doesn't realize that point, the information one would get would be reduced by half.

>>4382195
Maybe in the " Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left."

>>4382231
So because you can't explain it, you ignore it.

>>4382236
....what does this have to do with the neighboring room? He wasn't IN the neighboring room. I think you're confused.

>>4382238
Shut up. That fluff I'm also considering, just much less than the red. I'm aware of this, smartass.

>>4382246
I can't explain it now. I'm not entirely sure yet. No one is. More red is required to make a solid theory, so I won't grope in the dark based on my percieved 'trust' of the author.

>>4382257
Let's step back a bit. How did Kanon get the name Kinzo?

>>4382270
By solving the epitaph and becoming the new head of the family.

>>4382238
Nobody is relying on the red truth alone. We still have the detective POV.
And of course, we are not denying EVERYTHING not in red, we are just not accepting as truth something which is not confirmed. We CAN make theories using something not confirmed, but blindly defending them is just stupid.

Beatrice killed everyone with magic.

You can't disprove that with red so I guess it must be true.

>>4382275
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!

During episodes 3 and 5, when Eva and Battler respectively solve the epitaph and become the new head(s), neither receive the name or title of Kinzo. There is no precedent for such a thing, ergo that's out.

>>4382281
>>4382281
Thank you, my point exactly. All this defense is pretty silly at this stage.

>>4382286
Knox something supernatural elements etc.

>>4382295
Nonsense. Remember Battler's theory about someone taking the name "Kinzo" in the episode 4 ???

Can't get much more directly foreshadowed than that.

>>4382295
Wasn't it in question in Ep5 if Knox applied to this whole mystery?

>>4382296
Yet you are using something not confirmed as truth.

>>4382315
I meant that method of receiving the name/title of Kinzo.

>>4382281
There's a difference between not accepting something as truth and ignoring an entire subplot.

I just want an explanation for that subplot, and it's not something you can just respond to with, "Oh, I'll get back to that later." It took up half of EP6. It was important.

>>4382320
And i'm telling you that looking for an answer to that without red is foolish! Base it on trust, and search for some answer in your manner is pointless. Waiting with the event in mind is the only non foolish option.

>>4382309
It just says the detective can't use supernatural elements to solve the case. Nothing about the culprit using them.

>>4382320
And there is a difference in not accepting something which was disproven and ignoring your subplot's interterpretation.

>>4382333
But I'm using both red AND the fantasy scenes. My whole point is that neither should be disregarded.

>>4382319
"Here I go, you damn geezer!! My theory is that Kinzo's name is passed on as the title of the Ushiromiya family head! Ushiromiya Kinzo was already dead. And he passed 'that name' on to someone else! Everyone acknowledged that!! That way, 'All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo'!!"

>>4382337
You are right on that. Yet it is said in red that the culprit is human.

>>4382342
Shkannontrice wasn't actually disproven.

Also, I'm not saying you're wrong for ignoring my interpretation of the subplot. I'm aware I could be wrong. I'm just saying that not trying to come up with ANY explanation is wrong here.

>>4382353
Yeah, except Battler didn't get the name at all, so I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Maybe if at least Eva had.

But instead, both of them got the title of Endless Witch/Sorcerer in the end. How about that?

>>4382362
Refresh my memory.

>>4382353
The method isn't given as the epitath, so your theory is still valid. It could be anything according to this blue.

>>4382352
You should use the red to kill your interpretations, not to make them. Until there is only one left.
What we are arguing here is that red kills Shkanontrice theory.

>>4382372
see
>>4382379
It hasn't been stated that the Epitath was how he passed on the name. Another option to find may exist. You are incorrect.

>>4382372
You can't deny that the foreshadowing is there for this.

>>4382379
Well, it could be anything else, like having mad sex with Battler inside a closet.

>>4382368
Didn't you say your explanation were based heavily on trusting the author? That is my point; this is foolish. To you, I would say focus more on the red, then fantasy, then your trust. Not a lot of red is available at this time for that entire scene that took up 6, so trying to create a theory without solid red is stupid. Understand?

>>4382394
I can deny it just as much as you can deny Shkanon, when EP6 pretty much spells that out for you.

How about that? Neat.

>>4382415
It's useless, it's all useless! Both of our theories are valid. You can't deny mine, I can't deny yours. It's a draw.

>>4382415
You can't deny that a method forshadowed besides the Epitath may exist yet! Why did you stop thinking at the epitath! Moron, you need to be more flexible. This theory isn't dead yet. His blue about the name being passed on is solid, and the method is still unknown.

>>4382425
I will deny it to hell.

>>4382377
>No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game

>>4382415
But we just denied Shkanon! Many times!

>>4382468
Due to the ridiculous amount of twisting involved with the red text, I don't think it's possible to deny Shkanon. We'll just have to accept that they'll be pushing it for months. At least we now have an alternate theory for the logic error.

>397 posts and 25 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.

>>4382481
Ok, I agree with you. We may have powerful allies, but we can't get past the enemy's shield so easily. Better wait for the fully development of our new weapon, EP7.

>>4382525
Dude, EP7 is going to fuck EVERYONE over.

>>4382547
You say as it is a bad thing.

>>4382495
Methinks it may be time for a new thread soon, yes?