/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Is Shannon a man or is Kanon a girl?

>>4117981
Well, everyone knows that Shannon is shit tier, and Kanon is BRO tier.

>>4117995
Only Moon-chan knows for sure!

>>4117997
But Shannon is Kanon so in the end they are mid tier I guess.

>>4118004
Nah, bro, it's like-
Well, it's like Ranma 1/2.
Ranma-chan looks better and has more of a personaility than Ranma-kun.

They are both the same person, but Ranma-chan is god-tier. You don't average them out.

>>4117995
It's like Schrodinger's Cat, we won't know unless we disrobe him/her.

>>4117999
Well, based on the fact that female villains tend to be lesbians, I say Kanon is a female!
No man can have that sexy of a hat.
NO MAN!

>>4118015

Sooooo it's a futanari until we do?

>>4118022
ZUN

>>4118024
Really, it's simple. Kanon is female.
Remember, Shannon is willing to let Battler feel her up. Battler would be onto her in an instant if she was male.

Ah, poor Kanon. He's not even a man, his love interest won't be his at best and is manipulating him at worst, and he's stuck in a goddamn room, forever.

>>4118015
I would forgive Shkannontrice being true if it were confirmed in a scene where Erika shouts "They must all be the same person!" and from then on tears the clothes off of all three of them in every scene for the rest of that episode.

>>4118038
Well, you can't tear off people's clothing if you're dead!

The implications of Shannonkanontrice are all really funny, but the biggest one is this.
Jessica is either a yandere lesbian nutjob, like Kaede Sakura, or Kohaku without the meido.

Really.

R07, hear my plea!
Please let Kanon be a girl!

>>4118058
Well, evil Jessica is hotter than not-evil Jessica.
Hell, evil makes everyone sexier.

>>4118058
>like Kaede Sakura
THE WERE KAMPFERS ALL ALONG


BEATRICE = JESSICAS KAMPFER FORM
SHANNON = KANON'S KAMPFER FORM
IT WAS ALL SO OBVIOUS

>>4118089
AND ANGE IS BATTLER'S KAMPFER FORM.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

>>4118071
Kaede Sakura was GLORIOUS. She was like a James Bond villain, being EVIL because EVIL.

>>4118071
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilIsSexy

>>4118058
Yeah. Well, we pretty much know she killed George in episode 4, and she banana phone'd Battler as well.

Wonder how the George fight went, though?

>>4118146
Most likely George tried to use kong-fu, and she used shotgun-fu.

>evil makes everyone sexier

So true.

So if 17 people are on the island, there must be someone we don't know about?

>>4118169
Evilness, not cuntiness

>>4118173
No, there's 17 people INCLUDING Erika.

>>4118175
What's the difference?

>>4118173
No culprit x.
No solely Beato piece.
No dine.
No Knox.
DID only.
FINAL DESTINATION.

Why have you all stopped thinking?!!

>>4118184
And yet she was able to proclaim herself as the eighteenth person.

>>4118195
Well, evil is being bad with a bit of class, like Kaede, like Takano, and perhaps like Moon-chan if she is the culprit. You have to put on at least an air of being subtle.

Cuntiness is just being DERP DERP I R AMUSED BY SUFFERING AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. It's a bit too.... blatant.

>>4118205
Oh, shut up, don't see you offering any advice.
>>4118211
That's precisely why this whole Shkanon nonsense came about. It's all about what you define as a person.

>>4118227
New exit made and sealed up at some point.

>>4118195
Being evil usually means having plans and schemes, that sort of thing.
A cunt is what you are when you go ahead and okay the execution of your own furniture just because.

>>4118235
Um, what? Could you expand upon that, cause I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

any thoughts on what kind of weapon the siesta sisters are?

>>4118249
After the closed room became a closed room, a hole was made somewhere, then covered up after Kanon left through it.

>>4118271
Useless ones

>>4118271
The Winchester rifles.

>>4118271
Guns.

>>4118271
Well, aren't they the bunny statues that Maria had?

>>4119084
Well, maybe. The Stakes are from New York, though. Which is kinda funny, because they had that impression on me when I first was introduced to them.

>>4118235
>>4118283
Pathetic.

>>4119119
Why did you post a blank picture?

>>4119123
Soft toys can't talk.

>>4119127
Again with the blank pictures, dude, really, why even bother?

>>4119137
I'll show you a blank picture.

>>4119123

I'm sorry, but it's all useless. If Shkannontrice were true, Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice would count as THREE people, being three personalities, not two. That makes a total of 18 people on the island, taking Erika out of the equation to simplify things. That's one over the established limit any way you look at it. Sorry Shkannontrice fags, better luck in the next kakera!

>>4119158
You are fucking stupid

>>4119158
The truth of the future shapes the past.
Shannon and Kanon are counted as 2 persons officially even in the future.
Therefore the red text can count them as 2 different persons.

>>4119158
Why don't you just give up and die?

http://www.4chan.org/People_can_mean_either_individual_bodies,
http://www.4chan.org/or_personalties..
http://www.4chan.org/It_can_be_used_both_ways..

>>4119158
Well, hm. That doesn't exclude Kanon = Shannon, but think of it this way, then who was Beato?

>>4119169
If the red text counts each personality as a separate person, it'd have to do that same for Beatrice side of Shkannon. That puts the person limit over 17, meaning either Shkannon doesn't have a Beatrice side, or Shkannontrice is wrong. I'm guessing the latter.

>>4119182
But, uh, then who was Beato?

>>4119182
Reading comprehension, do you have it?
Red text mean statement that can be proved.
It can be proved that Shannon and Kanon are separate people.
It can also be proved that they are the same person.
That's why the red text worked in both cases for the "18 persons" vs "17 persons" thing at the end of episode 6.

Beatrice doesn't have an official identity, unlike Shannon or Kanon, so her existence can't be proved.

It's that simple.

>>4119181
Kanon.

-There is not the possibility that Kanon faked his death in episode 1. There is the certainty that Kanon faked his death.
-Kanon is found alive with a stake not even piercing his body. He is later carried off and supposedly died. It is simply taken at Jessica and Nanjo's word that he did.
-Maria say that Beatrice exists "here" to Battler when Kanon is in the same room. Those in the room are Genji, Kumasawa, Maria, Kanon and Battler. Four of these are confirmed in red to be innocent of murder in the first episode. The fifth is not.
-Kanon ran to the guesthouse in the rain when a simple call would have sufficed. Battler comments on the strangeness of this. Natsuhi later comments on the strangeness of servants coming directly rather than calling. The Maria letter situation created an alibi for Kanon and the cousins because they were looking for her in the first place. However, if Kanon only called, he would not have an alibi. Furthermore, he was the last one to be mentioned being in the rose garden before Maria received the letter. He could have simply given it to her on his way there.
-In episode 2, besides Rosa, who sees Beatrice together with Maria, Kanon is the last one seen with Maria in the rose garden. When Rosa arrives after Kanon has left, Maria says Beatrice will be coming soon.
-Beatrice is 19 years old.
-Kanon, although he is supposed to be 16, fits the profile well for the man from 19 years ago. Since he is not fully matured, it may be ambiguous whether he is male or female on a phone. He lowers his voice to sound more menacing because his own voice is not so. His voice actor, chosen personally by Ryuukishi, has played a prominent trap role, as long as many female voice roles, because she is female. Kanon is the only male character in Umineko with a female voice actor.
-Kanon is shown to dislike Natsuhi. I believe one line is "Madam can burn in hell."

>>4119188
Not a "seperate personality," but just someone disguised as her. I'm not saying Shannon can't be Beato, I'm saying that it's not a seperate personality that can count as a person.

>>4119194
>It can be proved that Shannon and Kanon are separate people.
Go on then

>>4119197
Would go against her entire characterization.
Stop struggling and accept that ShKanontrice is the truth.

>>4119195
But Shannon died in the shed in that episode. Unless Hideyoshi was lying to George.

>>4119198
Read my previous post.
They both have an official identity, probably Kinzo paid for this.

>>4119195
Goddamn, Moon-chan and Nanjo.
Why does it always come down to Moon-chan and Nanjo?!

>>4119195
>Natsuhi later comments on the strangeness of servants coming directly rather than calling.

Just a question, but weren't the phone lines cut?

>>4119212
Who is 'Moon-chan'?

>>4119207
He was lying. Hideyoshi was an accomplice and Kanon killed them next after cutting the chain to their room. Hideyoshi wouldn't let George see the body.

ShKanontrice is absolutely true and there is no reason to doubt it.

>>4119227
Battler: "There are more corpses than I can count on one hand!"
Unless Battler has 4 fingers, that means six people in the shed.

>>4119219
In the morning they were cut. This is the night before, just before dinner, when they are still working. Genji uses the phone after that point.

>>4119227
Hideyoshi knew what hand Shannon had the ring George gave her own. Unless someone was spying on them the night before, there's no way he could have known that without the genuine corpse.

>>4119223
Moon-chan is Moon-chan.
Just a pet name some people call Jessica, usually when she pops up in theories.

>>4119233
But he names them all except Shannon. Shannon was around the corner and obscured by Hideyoshi and Kanon standing over he. George had to ask if there was a sixth corpse. It could not be seen clearly by Battler.

There is the possibility that it wasn't a corpse at all, but something made to look like a corpse if someone didn't go up to inspect it themselves. George asks if there's a ring on Shannon's finger. Kanon points to it. This could be a sign that from Kanon to Hideyoshi. "Yes, you should say there is a ring there, since George proposed to me crossdressing last night like the clueless creepy virgin he is". Hideyoshi only acknowledged the ring after Kanon pointed.

>>4119254
Meh, I don't like it. Having more and more people be involved in a conspiracy is usually a sign that we are losing sight of the truth.

THERE ARE 17 PEOPLE ON THE ISLAND

BECAUSE BATTLER AND BEATO JUST FUCKING KILLED ERIKA

>>4119265
Well, they said even with you it's 17 people. And then she died.

>>4119263

And 1 person kills almost everyone on the island?

The culprit for a murder of this scale, will always have accomplices that are either in on it willingly for some benefit to them, or tricked.

>>4119269
Really? Because I thought that he said "There's only 17 people on the island now."

>>4119254
>Yes, you should say there is a ring there, since George proposed to me crossdressing last night like the clueless creepy virgin he is

When I think of that scene in the VN I think it's possible, but when it's conveyed in the anime it makes it feel like there's no way that could be Kanon.

But hey, maybe Ryuukishi didn't feel like telling them so they wouldn't give out any visual hints like that.

>>4119273
I'm not saying one person did it, but I think when we have more than 3 or 4 people working together, we run into trouble.
Because Hideyoshi would at least involve his wife and son, it goes against his entire character to go off on a killing spree without good reason. Basically, I can get behind Nanjo as a killer, I can buy Shkanontrice, I can buy Jessica being part of it, because all these people can plan stuff out in advance and act without too much questioning. But with Hideyoshi, he's shown to be very close with his wife and son. He's no moron, he would tell them something is up and make an effort to get them safe, he wouldn't keep them out of the loop.

So yeah, I don't see Hideyoshi being a part of it.

>>4119248
That is an awfully creepy card. Did that come from the DvD set?

>>4119292
Dumb.

Does anyone want the Closed Room Lecture?

I'm not sure whether Ryukishi is familiar with it, but he probably is because he enjoys closed rooms so much, and John Dickson Carr is the acknowledged master.

>>4119313
R07's closed rooms are nothing like a typical closed room. In fact this whole mystery isn't a typical mystery.
>>4119312
Well, that's not very nice.

>>4119313

Also. Battler is obviously a fucking fan. You'll recognize it in his reasoning.

>>4119292

>Because Hideyoshi would at least involve his wife and son,
>killing spree without good reason.

I just think you think in too small of a scale, this isn't a simple murder.

You can't just think 'Who would murder someone?' because everyone on the island will come up with 'Probably not'.
You have to think deeply, there could be many many reasons, being threatened into it 'Help me and I'll spear your family and reward you for it'.
There's going to be many many many reasons why a murder plan has been concocted, many people can be strong armed into it with promises to fix their money issues or threats.

If this was on the down low because they said they'd kill his family, he wouldn't tell anyone.
Then they go and back stab him and kill him and Eva to clean up the lose ends.

The line to Erika is "Even with you, it's 17 people"

そなたを迎えても、 １７人だ。

That doesn't seem to imply it's because Erika is dead. If Erika is the 17th then there are only 16, so someone out of the 17 is actually someone else in disguise. Battler meets every possible combination of the 17 together in episode 1 except Shannon and Kanon.

So you see? ShKanontrice is already confirmed. <Good>.

>>4119320

Why so? Aside from the mindfuck EP6 room. His closed rooms are reasonable enough and typical.

>>4119328
Still, Hideyoshi being threatened by a DID meido, a blonde teenager, and/or some old doctor falls a little flat. If he is in on it, he is doing it willingly, but if he's doing it willingly, it flies in the face of his characterization. And for him to pick up an extremely offhand remark about a ring, that would just be extensively odd.

>>4119330
Is this picture >implying that Genji is actually Mackerel-chan?

>>4119340

You had a bad imagination if you can't come up with a scenario where even Hideyoshi was able to do such a thing. There's a number of ways to threaten people.

Ep5....Kanon was threatening Natsuhi into all kinds of things.

>>4119340
Hideyoshi isn't stupid. Kanon pointed to the ring finger on Shannon's left hand, Hideyoshi knew what that implied. Maybe he knew a little about the details earlier and this was just another hint for him.

For example, if Kanon said he would get Shannon to fake her death so George, who is going to propose to her, stops going after her as part of the plot.

>>4119351
You mean going to bed and hiding in a closet? Yeah, that's totally on the same level as being an accomplice in murder. Try harder.

>>4119340

Money and the threat of death.

Assume that "Beatrice" controls the money in the safe deposit boxes. Hideyoshi MORE THAN ANYTHING NEEDS MONEY RIGHT NOW. There, you have both the carrot and the stick.

>>4119351
>Implying Kanon was the one threatening Natsuhi.

>>4119357
Also first twilight

Krauss
Rudolf
Kyrie
Rosa

George gets to be the head? Isn't that wonderful for Eva and George, Hideyoshi? Promise we won't kill you a few hours later..heh.

Jessica doesn't want the head anyway so after the death of her dead you can easily persuade her.

Way back in EP1 Hideyoshi was the most nervous one when Maria took out a letter. Hideyoshi had guessed about Kinzo's death since 1985's conference. And just how many guest rooms is there on Rokkenjima? What were the chances that Hideyoshi would pick the one with Natsuhi? Either he planned it himself or someone directed him there. Well, any of the servants could do that so that's not too important.
Anyway, do not underestimate Hideyoshi.

>>4119363
>implying he wasn't

>>4119363


Oh please inform me of who was.

>>4119375
Battler obviously, its fucking shown in the episode. Have you not finished reading it?

>>4119366
I don't think Jessica would be convinced into just killing someone, she has all the money and power she will need already. If she is involved, she has other motives, and is most likely one of the masterminds.

If Kanon = Shannon, then was there really a dead Shannon in the shed in EP1?

>>4119380

Oh please inform us how you came to this conclusion, because Battler says so? Oh and EVA is the culprit for ep3 too right?

>>4119383
No, only two people ever say the body, Kanon, who is just Shannon's other personality, and Hideyoshi, who is in on it.

>>4119382
This. Jessica is susipicious, but I doubt she's a lackey of any kind. Perhaps if Shkanontrice is the mastermind.... but even that seems odd.

>>4119383
WHO SAID SHANNON WAS DEAD IN SHED
her face was bashed in only thing to identify her was the ring which can easily be removed

>>4119382

I never said anything about Jessica being in on it, she just doesn't care about the head, so even if you only kill her dad, she won't steal it away from George.

>>4119380
>Battler obviously, its fucking shown in the episode. Have you not finished reading it?

Yes, I did read it. Unlike you.

Battler says he can construct another truth with him as the culprit and the one who rings Natsuhi, that doesn't man HE DID ring Natsuhi full stop.

I mean are you even paying attention?

>>4119394
Well, if her dad up and died, she'd object to someone taking the head. We're assuming Innocent!Jessica here, so she'd likely feel an obligation to take over.

The only way you could ENSURE that she wouldn't take over would to get her in on it, or kill her.

Just a little discussion.

In ranking the siblings who need money, who needs it the most?

Hideyoshi just has to deal with stockbrokers, who he can probably reach a negotiation with. He's just a bit hurt because this was a company he built up, and he's not backing down.

Eva and George are fairly competent businessmen and probably have other sources of income. Hideyoshi's family won't starve on the streets.

Krauss is basically fucked. Truly, truly fucked.

Rudolf has a time limit on his hands, or his company is done. He can't afford to dilly dally and he really needs the fucking money. Kyrie is tied up in his business as well, so if it collapses, they're screwed.

Rosa is unknown. All that's known is she's a co-signer in something. She seemed pretty desperate at the end of EP2 though. Dragging the gold and all that.

So, what if Kyrie, who has no compassion when a job needs doing, suggests that she, Rudolf, and Rosa, kidnap Krauss and have a little talk with him in EP1. Basically, they pressure him to reveal his finances. They find out that, they can't squeeze a damn dime out of him. Despair confusion and rage. Culprit finds out where they took him, or is an accomplice, and kills them for the first twilight. Gohda and Shannon are just filler for the 6.

>>4119403

Well you wouldn't really have ENSURE that she didn't, see because it's not about the head, it's the culprit trying to trick hideyoshi into complying, because you're going to backstab him later anyway. All he needed to do is make Hideyoshi sufficiently think that the head will goto George.

>>4119405
Rosa is actually cosigned with Maria's father.She also seems to believe it's possible their relationship can be repaired if she pays that debt. In a monetary sense, she doesn't need it so much, but an in emotional sense, maybe she really does.

>>4119405
Well, Kyrie and the cousins extorting money from Krauss is canon, they blatantly show you Hideyoshi and Kyrie playing mindgames with him. So yeah, it could happen.

>>4119411
Hideyoshi isn't an idiot, though. Perhaps it could work on Eva, who has a big ego, but Hideyoshi has been shown to be one of the more intelligent characters on the island.

>>4119417

Obviously the plan would have to be more creative than what I've thought up just now. The point is, this could be a basic outline of what is going on.

The culprit probably have some really fucking brilliant scheme that would be hard to foresee, but you can still take some stabs what what methods they used.

>>4119413

Yeah, at least this way, the kinda random EP1 first twilight is explained.

My take on it, is the culprit for EP1 truly is "Beatrice" she really doesn't give a damn who she kills, and just picks opportune targets.

The final murders of Kumasawa, Nanjo, and Genji bother me though. Something's odd about that. Those people are definitely on my accomplice list.

>>4119417
He is fairly intelligent, but is he really that smart? He was pretty fucking stupid allowing himself to get in the situation he's in. Also, he went with Kyrie and Rudolf to get food in episode 3, whether they were the culprits, or he was, or he was an accomplice to Eva, it seems like a stupid move.

>>4119405
Well Shannon was never confirmed dead by the detective, for all we know she could sitting there smoking a pipe & reading the paper.
Gohda was probaly killed for his disbelief in the Witch story, EP5 proves that he can be a real problem at times (for the culprit).

>>4119412

Damn. EP6? Something similar actually crossed my mind.

>>4119443
Yeah, it's from ep6.

>>4119424
Well, yeah, I'm not doubting the Mastermind's scheme is ingenius, but the issue is that you can't convince mostly anyone that Jessica would just give up on her inheritance and the head.... unless it was Jessica herself telling you that.

>>4119449
Well, most theories have Jessica in there somewhere, so that really is a non-issue. The biggest problem is that people seem to be torn between her being an accomplice or a mastermind.

>>4119464
She's a female in a When They Cry game. She's a mastermind.

I think three plots exist.
Group one goal is to kidnap Krauss & probaly Natsuhi.
Group two will backstab group one.
Group three plans to use the epitah.

It's hard to say who belongs to which group but EP3 onwards suggests that group three plans go tits up.

>>4119476
Well, duh. I think we have two basic plots, though.

Those after money, and those who exist for other reason.

Team Moolah and Team Beato.

Team Beato makes everything a clusterfuck.

>>4119476

All right. I suggest that there's some overlap between groups as well.

Group one's motivations are fairly simple, they need money and they still believe Krauss can give it. I think the siblings are all part of this, (except maybe Hideyoshi and Eva), w/ Kumasawa as their inside line to the mansion (remember the tea? that's a signal)


Since group one loves money, what happens when the gold is found? Did Rosa tell the others? Will they kill for the gold?

Group two is just where we put traitors in general..

Group three is probably "Beatrice" she who executes the will. Genji is there as well, along with Kanon, Shannon and Nanjo.

Maybe Nanjo is the wild card in all of this? He really needs the money for his grandkid.

Also, note that the witch's letter in EP3 is direct and to the point. Maybe Genji/Shannon/Kanon weren't able to compose one that's fit for Kinzo's standards.

>>4119516
And then Group 4 would be team Good Guys, meaning Battler, George, and Jessica?

>>4119525
Is Gohda a good guy?

>Also, note that the witch's letter in EP3 is direct and to the point. Maybe Genji/Shannon/Kanon weren't able to compose one that's fit for Kinzo's standards.
What's that supposed to mean?

>>4119535
That group 2 fucks over groups 3 plans frequently.

>>4119525
>Implying Jessica is a good guy

>>4119531
I think he is. Kinda so much of a good guy that he is a bit of a spanner in the works.

>>4119525

Group 4 is people who know jack shit. So it's just Battler. Maybe Gohda.

Then again Gohda LIED to the cousins Ep4. He saw Kinzo killing people, yet no one can mistake Kinzo by sight. He might be threatened though.

George doesn't seem to buy into Kinzo being dead. He had this cheesy smile when talking about Kinzo's will power extending his life. He also had a private talk with Kumasawa (then Battler and Maria tickled him).

Jessica had been feeding the cousins stories of Kinzo in EP1. She probably knows he's dead. She's probably part of Natsuhi's group, and might be part of others as well.

>>4119558
>Then again Gohda LIED to the cousins Ep4. He saw Kinzo killing people, yet no one can mistake Kinzo by sight.

Wasn't he saying 'I don't know what that was! What the hell happened? I don't understand'. He never actually said 'Oh Kinzo was killing people by the way' Right?

I love this kind of discussions and theories. Without meta-shit.

>>4119535

I'm assuming Genji and the one winged eagle servants composed the elegant letters of the witch in EP 1-2. EP3 was just, solve the fucking epitaph already, goddamnit.

Probably because Nanjo betrayed them and was hungry for the gold. So he wrote that letter and let other people know that the epitaph is serious business. He planned to swoop in and take the gold.

>>4119576
Same thing in episode 2.
Rosa asks Gohda what happened and he's like "I DON'T KNOW HOW SHOULD I EXPLAIN"
And Genji is like "Kanon killed everyone and then he disappeared into butterflies, right? Or you better fucking agree it was or this knife goes to your throat."

>>4119576
Yeah, he was just confused as fuck. The most sketchy person in episode 4 is Jessica. I mean, dear lord, lying about Kinzo, most likely murdering George, and calling Battler up on the banana phone.

>>4119588
Maybe that's why Kumasawa was allowed to 'escape' as well. To make sure that he wouldn't trip up. But then again, they were both killed in the shed by someone.

It sounds like the scene in the mansion or (questionable) Kuwadorian basement was a hostage situation.

>>4119590

He clearly said, "The Master and Krauss-sama."

That's Kinzo I suppose.

>>4119590
Well, duh. I think she's the wild-card, as it's hard to place her in a specific camp.

>>4119626
> The Master
Ohohoho... but what if he was referring to the person who succeeded Kinzo?

>>4119614

That shed murder is fucking important.

They were posing for Battler the first time he peeks in with the rope. Why would they do that? And who killed them? Did the mastermind snap and betray them? Why?

>>4119614
That makes sense, i can understand why Kyrie would be present, maybe even Kanon/Shanon(depends how you feel about Shkanon) but why would they kidnap Nanjo?

>>4119630

Kinzo passed on his name and that person appeared at dinner. Sure, that can happen.

Here's another. A videotape of Kinzo was there and he ordered the culprit through it to kill everyone.

Gohda still seems shifty to me though.

>>4119637
>Gohda still seems shifty to me though.

Yeh but he's never 'Confidently blatantly lie to your face'
He's always like 'Ahhh well... something like... uh... I don't know.. like... Oh yeah... maybe.. that happened, I guess'.
Definitely bad a lying and probably forced into it.

>>4119637
>A videotape of Kinzo

Do we ever see any TV's in the mansion?

>>4119646
Gohda seems completely innocent to me, his notes suggest he's thrilled with cooking for the family, he thinks the Golden Witch is complete bullshit for the most part.
Then EP5 he's loves doing a good job.

>>4119652

>>4119652
Only in the parlor, the cousins guestroom & Eva and Hideyoshi's room in Episode 1. There's probably more though...

>>4119632
Poor Nanjo is automatically a suspect because he's a doctor.

>>4119637

Jessica's conversation with Krauss(?). Battler and the rest are eavesdropping.

"Did you hear from Gohda?"

"Yes. Grandfather......-ed.....everyone."

"Don't save us!"

"Damn you Grandfather, how dare you do that to Mom and the rest?! I'm gonna kill that worthless bastard"

Also, Gohda took the phone, had cold sweat and said "Yes! Yes!"

Kyrie told Battler the party line, Kinzo killed everyone, same thing was said through George and Shannon. Jessica talked to Kanon again.

Nanjo and Kumsawa talked as well. Kinda odd.

This scene seems so damn suspicious now.

>>4119675
>Damn you Grandfather, how dare you do that to Mom and the rest?!

Fucking Jessica, stop being so fucking suspicious.

>>4119684
Well, uh, she has the tarot card which means deception for A REASON!

>>4119675

Ahh.... They might have been trying to 'fake' the murder at that point.

Maybe.... the backstabbers went in and finished the job.

That's always the way it is, the parents will scheme to get money out of Krauss... making everything fucking complicated, but when people actually die is actually unknown to them. Because group back stabbers are like ninja's swooping when they get their chance to take advantage.

Is it fair to assume that every single person in Rokkenjima suffers from DID or some form of schizophrenia and that all the Fantasy characters either represent some of these personalities, or the voices they hear?

>>4119684
Yeah, the more Jessica pops up the more sketchy she gets. Kinda disturbing.

>>4119699

So, dinner room scene is fake.

Gohda and Kumsawa were threatened.

Krauss is kidnapped. The bullshit story is fed. Jessica and the others go along.

Ok.

Then Kyrie finds out Krauss has motherfucking NOTHING. What happens then? Team Beato acts on its plan and kills everyone in that concealed place/dinner room? Moving bodies as necessary?

But Genji died. Struggle maybe?

>>4119712
Because Jessica=Beatrice and Kyrie is manipulating her, bad that Jessica realizes it 2/5 times

>>4119723
Or, y'know, Jessica is just a diabolical mastermind.
You can indeed plan shit out and not be Beatrice.

>>4119727

Well... you don't think she gave the latter to Maria? Since Maria is a fucking idiot and believes anything anyone tells her 'EVA-Beatrice? OH IT'S BEATRICE'.

I don't know about the balcony Beato though.

>>4119741
I will say Balcony-Beato is the most likely to be Jessica, but I don't even wanna dive into that.
The fact of the matter is that Jessica is sketchy as fuck WITHOUT dragging Beatrice into the mix.

>>4119746
why not, it's better Jessica pretending to be Beatrice and Shkanon than Shkanontrice

>>4119746

Well she doesn't have to be THE 'Beatrice', I'm perfectly fine with her imitating her just for the conference for her own personal diabolical schemes.

>>4119741
Maria's guillible, I agree on that. But when Maria and Rosa met with EVA in the garden in Episode 3, Maria asked who she was.

At first appearance, the siblings are able to distinguish their sister from EVA or at least realize who it is.

This is something I just realized.

Since EP4 is just shot to hell with people murdering the fuck out of each other, what's the point of burning Kinzo's corpse? It's not like the conspiracy fucking matters anymore.

Maybe it's just to freak Battler out and show him the "killer" is dead?

>>4119750
Yeah, but we have that meta-flashback at the end of episode 6 which makes it unlikely. Regardless, Moon-chan remains Moon-chan, so anything could happen.

>>4119758
>what's the point of burning Kinzo's corpse?

Evidence I guess, even though the island blows, they wanted to make Kinzo's time of death a complete mystery.
Whoever they were.... if they got off the island, no clue.

>>4119759
it could be Jessica disguised because she (is obvious btw) liked Battler when she was young and just pretended to be Shannon to be closer to him

>>4119772
Y'know, come to think of it, Battler DID say Jessica is different from how her remembers her.
And yeah, Jessica likes him.
Don't think that's quite enough, though.

>>4119758
Possibly so people wouldn't be able to find out the immediate cause and time of death..as well as confusion in the identity of the corpse. If they set someone like Nanjo to do an autopsy (although it wouldn't be sufficient and he could lie), he wouldn't be perform a proper diagnosis due to the severity of the burns.

Now that I think of it..Nanjo's never seen Kinzo's burnt corpse has he?

Notes on EP4.

Stakes are scattered haphazardly. Did team Beato lose?

The guns are nowhere to be found. Where are they and how can the culprit hide them?

George, Kyrie, Gohda and Kumasawa were killed by a pistol type weapon. The rest were probably shotguns.

So maybe, the culprit went out and used her pistol to kill these four and someone betrayed her and used the shotgun?

Back of the Mansion, Nanjo, Shanon and Krauss. No guns around too.

>>4119772
Nah. In the first episode he distinctly remembers playing with a tomboyish Jessica. He just said she became more feminine over the past 6 years.

>>4119780
let's get back to the ORIGINAL pony theory
There was loli Beatrice, fed up of being imprisoned and changed places with Shannon for a day so she could be with the cousins and then she met Battler and he made the pony promise to her

From that, you change loli Beatrice with Jessica, the only real person on Rokkenjima that has expressed her wishes to get out of the island,m which fits the promise well

>>4119786
Well, I'd say that Jessica could have just killed herself, if you wanna assume the Jessitrice theory. Or she got blown to shit by Shannon. One of the two.

>>4119793
Y'know, I have a certain pet theory of my own. Jessica went around asking her cousins what their type was. The girl in the flashback asks Battler what his type was, and when he says Jessica she feels upset.

So, all that would make sense, considering what you said, but it's still contrived to an extent.

>>4119795

I know. But the lack of guns make suicides unfeasible. Say Shannon did it, no longer gives a fuck and scatters the stakes around, blows her head off. Where did the gun go? Maybe the well, but how did it end up there?

The gun mystery is like a closed room.

>>4119786
You're really asking about the guns, the EASIEST part?, you have a crazy Maria rampaging over the house, just ask her to hide them

>>4119802
Less contrived than a maid with 3 different personalities

>>4119805

Huh.

I feel stupid now. It also fits since she didn't have a gun related death. Thanks.

>>4119806
True, true.
But yeah, ok, tsundere loli-Jessica theory is go.

She wanted to get closer to Battler, couldn't actually do it as herself, so she switched off with Shannon.

Decent theory, and it holds up well enough.

>>4119810
Well, just suppose whoever was Beatrice hid the res of the guns, suicided with whatever she could and then just asked Maria to close her door (if she was Jessica) and hide the guns, then leave using a window, leave the keys in the door of the chapel, return the same way and drink 'golden land juice'

>>4119811
It's the theory I'm proud of now, because I can' just accept Shkanontrice for some reason. It really doesn' have evident holes and still can use Shkanon as stupid killers (mostly later in the games)

>>4119811
I would argue plausibility, but then I remembered that the other option is a tri-polar crossdressing maid.

>>4119811
Jessica theory has a hole in it. Jessica didn't want to remain on the island. She wanted to leave and go elsewhere, rather than waiting for Battler.

>>4119818
yeah, also it holds up more or less well. I'm not saying Shkanon isn't true nor that they aren't killers

>>4119822
Not quite. Remember, the Beatrice persona was created because the original person "couldn't love Battler anymore".

>>4119822
Tha's why. she was waiting for Battler to rescue her because she COULDN'T do it on her own, she 'loves' her family, tat's why she stays, she's waiting for Battler to do it, hanging into that hope
Then Battler dowsn't remember it, Jessica goes insane

>>4119833
>>4119827

Jessica wanted to leave the island to attend school or live in the city. However, Natsuhi wanted her to attend a prestigious school.

Shannon on the other hand, stayed there for 10 years. 7 years long than she should have. So she was possibly waiting for Battler.

If you're basing your theories off the Moon tarot card, you might want to check that it doesn't only represent deception, but it reflects the emotional status as well. She's at the age where she's confused and unsure of what she wants to do. She doesn't want to become the head either. She wasn't assaulted by Kinzo in anyway. As much as Natsuhi may adore Kinzo, it isn't in her nature to let her daughter be endangered.

I have something of an odd theory. It's about Beatrice's motive for committing the murders. Now, I expect to get flamed a bit, because it acknowledges that magic exists on some level, but only on a level where it can influence motive. Essentially, the same way it worked in Higurashi.

Now, when I was thinking about the way twists work in good stories, one of the best things to do is cause a plot hole early on, let it be expected, and then fill it with a mystery that initially seems unrelated but, in fact, has been staring you in the face the whole time. I believe that this thing is The Meta-World.

We try to ignore the Meta-world, and for obvious reasons. But more and more, we're being made to acknowledged a kind of magic. Not the magic that can create impossible rooms, but magic of the mind, magic of illusions, magic that is a kind of perception that makes a harsh reality better. Furthermore, we sort of have to face Meta-magic sooner or later, due to the existence of higher beings like Bern and Lambda.

>>4119863

Continued...


From the First Game's Tea party, I'm led to believe that that place, the Meta-world, only really existed when the first game was finished. Now, here is where I get a bit more speculative. What is Beatrice was created, properly, at that moment when the first game was finished, and the illusion of the witch was created successfully. We know she had to do something to earn Witchhood from Lambda. Maybe this was it? This explains her sudden appearance, and why everyone agrees that the witch was the culprit, even breaking character (Interestingly, Jessica alone changes her mind and says that it had to be a human culprit, before she dies)


So, what's the point? The hint in episode 5, that says that, with the epitaph, winning or losing doesn't matter, but the process of solving is very important to her. Beatrice is trying to gain something from the repetition of the game board, and from Battler learning the truth. For this, Beatrice (Be her Moon-chan or Shannon) struck a deal with Lambda to become a witch if she could create the illusion of a witch on Rokkenjima. Once this is achieved, her game with Battler in the meta world begins. With this done, Beatrice can achieve something. I don't know what that something is yet, but I suspect it has to do with whatever kills everyone at midnight.

>>4119802
>Jessica went around asking her cousins what their type was. The girl in the flashback asks Battler what his type was, and when he says Jessica she feels upset.

If Jessica wanted to get close to Battler, why would she be upset when Battler said she was his type. I think that makes very little sense. Also, why would she create Beatrice, when she already fit in terms of personality (and some physical aspects)?

Personally, at this point, I think Jessitrice makes very little sense. Sure, it sounds better than a maid with 3 personalities, but Shannontrice feels far more possible than Jessitrice, in my opinion.

>>4119871
There's also the fact that, looking back, there's a ton of hints towards Kanontrice, even if you leave out all the stuff hinting towards Shkanon.

>>4117977
Fuck off with your moronic attacks 24/7 at www.anon
talk.com. We don't want you there, retards. Got it already?

>>4119871
just think of it that way, Jessica was happy seeing that battler waned a girl like Jessica and then she waited for him, then he never came, Jessica started wondering if maybe it was her fault, and then Kinzo's rapes started, she started imagine that she was Beatrice and thinking that if it was beatrice, Battler would surely come for her

>>4117978
Fuck off with your moronic attacks 24/7 at www.anon
talk.com. We don't want you there, retards. Got it already?

>>4119871
Well, to be fair, if Battler said "Jessica" was his type, and she's dressed up as Shannon, it wouldn't mean she's into her. Like, I am Bob, diguised as Bill, and Bill is disguised as me. If Alice says she likes people like Bob, she's referring to Bill.

And as for the whole moon tarot thing - It's universally bad. It means another side, it means deception. Not that that matters or anything, but don't assume she has the card because she played tsurupettan or something.

>>4117979
Fuck off with your moronic attacks 24/7 at www.anon
talk.com. We don't want you there, retards. Got it already?

>>4120023
This. Still, whatever happened 6 years ago is a clusterfuck of stupidity.

>>4120064
Yeah, well, say "simple" as much as you want, you still have three people being the same person.

Both theories are confusing and convoluted, but in different ways.

Nothing indicates that Jessica could disguise herself as Shannon, Knox etc...

You guys go far too low just to avoid ShKanontrice.
Stop fighting it, it will only make it harder for you later.

>>4120071
Yeah but the DID Shannon thing was foreshadowed a fucking lot.
The whole second episode was about it.
Jessitrice, not so much.

>>4120073
Actually, incorrect!
Unlike Shannon and Kanon, there is stuff that tells us that Jessica does look like Beatrice!
The ending of episode 6, Beatrice is modeled after Jessica. Oh, and once more, the only person to bring up the concept of personas, is Jessica herself!
This is beyond her having blonde hair(which in and of itself IS a viable clue), because it's stated Beatrice was made to look like Jessica. The embodiment of his idea and all.


Looking at clues, the only one capable should be Jessica, as she looks similar to Beatrice. Kanon and Shannon aren't stated to have the abiity to disguise themselves, nor are they stated to look like Beatrice.

Jessica, however, does indeed have the backing to do it.

First of all this whole "dressing up as X" is stupid. It's not easy to disquise oneself for other person. If we assume ShKanon is doing it for years then it's plausible, but for anybody else it's stupid.

And why in every theory Kinzo rapes somebody? It's possible that Shannon is a french maid getting well paid for her Beatrice games and Jessica might have been assaulted/molested/betrayed by some guy in her school. That would explain why she don't trust men she don't know well and why she carry brass knuckles with herself.

>>4120073

I'll accept Shkannontrice if it comes to that. But while Shannon, Kanon, and yes, Jessica, are very fucking suspicious, there is nothing to prove that any combination of these people are one person.

The theory also has a number of flaws that it's supporters, seemingly without exception refuse to even acknowledge, like the fact that Skannon count as one or two people, depending on what's more convenient for the theory at a given time.

This is no time to stop thinking.

>>4120077
DID? Be aware that the only person to mention personas is Jessica herself.
"People are capable of creating another part of themselves inside themselves at any time. A part that they can truly like."

So, quite so much.

>>4120105
We aren't pausing to think(seriously, prententious much?). The fact of the matter is that someone is disguising themselves as Piece Beatrice, on the gameboard. That is the crux of the matter.

>>4120094
> which in and of itself IS a viable clue
It's not. Whoever the person who created Beatrice was, she had been told by Battler two things:

1. He likes girls with personalities like Jessica's (rough-and-tumble, not totally polite, easy to get along with, etc.)
2. He's into girls who are "blonde and bouncy" and have blue eyes.

So the similarity in appearance between Jessica and Beatrice is mere coincidence.

>>4120107
Yes. And she then goes on to tell Kanon about her other persona, called "Jessie".

>>4120095
>That would explain why she don't trust men she don't know well and why she carry brass knuckles with herself.

wat?
(Putting the questionable position of Shannon/Kanon aside)

Yet, despite all that she seeks solace in a male companion? She still wants a boyfriend?

She's a boxer. Just like Krauss.

>>4120121
(While the similarity in personality is not.)

>>4120121
They are similar, though. Meaning that Jessica would be capable of looking like her.
Shannon is never stated to be similar to Beatrice.
Nor Kanon.

Jessica, however, is.
If anyone could disguise as Beatrice, it'd be her.

>>4120105
> there is nothing to prove that any combination of these people are one person.
And there's nothing to prove that Eva wasn't the culprit for many of the murders in Episode 3.

>>4120137
Why do you think Beatrice hate mirror?
And a wig + eye contacts can do wonder.

Shkannon theory may be plausible, albeit in a very different way.

Kanon/Joshua is an "alternate personality" of sorts created by Shannon to make Jessica feel happy. Kanon/Joshua seldom interacts with people other than Shannon and Jessica ("without love, it cannot be seen" etc.), and provides a plausible reason why Jessica was assigned The Moon arcana, which is associated with illusions and whatnot. This may imply that the real Kanon/Joshua is either the following:

A. Dead

B. In a coma

C. Hiding somewhere

D. Shannon's hand puppet created with "magic"

inb4 ayu. uguuu~

Furthermore, both Shannon and Kanon/Joshua may be no more than mere accomplices, and for the last fucking time there is simply not enough (legit) evidence leading to Kanon, Shannon or Jessica being Beatrice.

>>4120137
Jessica has absolutely no connection to Beatrice whatsoever. That's my main problem with this theory. None. In episode 6, the Beatrice that Battler never sees mentions that the family is full of anti-magic toxin. (excluding the servants) If Beatrice chose a 'host', it wouldn't be someone in main family.

We haven't seen Jessica mention Beatrice in a pleasant light at all. If anything, she's just a blonde.

>>4120151
Well, Beatrice hates mirrors because she's a western witch, and that doesn't prove anything in and of itself.

And you say wig and contacts... there has to be some evidence that Shannon is WEARING a wig and using contacts. You can't pull clues from your ass, it'd be like if Gohda just took out his Mac-10 and lit up the place.

>>4120152
> there is simply not enough (legit) evidence leading to Kanon, Shannon or Jessica being Beatrice.
And as stated in >>4120139, there is no legit evidence to support Eva not having done the majority of the murders in Episode 3. And yet at this point, hardly anyone believes Eva to have been the primary culprit anymore.

>>4120152
> D. Shannon's hand puppet created with "magic"
Thanks for that image of Shannon acting like Maria, except using a little hand puppet instead of Sakutarou.

>>4120166
Yeah, this. You can't just have the clues come from nowhere, they have to be mentioned before. Like, the guns. Because it's established that there are guns on the island and/or because we find gun wounds in the bodies, it's fair-play to assume that murders can be done using guns.

>>4120180
And she always acts him out with a bad mood.

Kanon-kun, let's play cards!
"Cards is unfitting for furniture. We must attend to work."
You need to loosen up, Kanon-kun!
"We can't losen up... because we're furniture."
But Jessica is waiting for you!
"It is unfitting for me to have relations with her. A human can't love furniture."

>>4120166
>>4120199
We KNOW that the Beatrice of the real world doesn't look like Beatrice at all.
Yet she did appears in front of Battler looking very much like Beatrice.

See where I'm going?

>>4120221
Goddammit, now I'm thinking of Shannon using a Kanon hand puppet to do a manzai routine.

>>4120227
Hair and eye-color-wise, yes. Body-structure-wise, we don't know; hell, Shannon could actually be flat-chested and simply wears pads, even if she isn't Beatrice. With regards to facial structure: we have no knowledge of that at all. If the person who created Beatrice acted as the model for the painting of Beatrice, then that would explain the way Battler was able to recognize her by face, and if she had worn a wig and such at that time, there's no reason she couldn't have kept them.

This all would require someone to have actually posed for the portrait, of course.

>>4120223
Goddammit, now I'm thinking of Shannon using a Kanon hand puppet to do a manzai-type/duo comedy routine, with Kanon as the straight man.

It would actually make sense for Shannon to wear pads from the start, if you take into consideration the flashback. Maybe she never really got a sizable chest but still wanted to be more attractive to him.

>Fall madly in love with a girl
>She loves you back
>Nah, just fucking with you, she actually is insanely in love with your ginger headed younger cousin

>>4120313
Well, regardless of who is correct, Beatrice is either :
[] Battler's Cousin's wife to be
[] his cousin
[] dead

>>4120330
Ooooooh, can I pick option two and three?

>>4120345
Wait, wait, Beatrice is Jessica's dead body?

Anyways, remember when people shipped Maria and Battler?
Why the fuck did that happen?

>>4120413
Because everyone else was taken. Jessica had Kanon, George had Shannon, Maria was the only choice left.

Nanjo has no smiling sprite.

Suspicious motherfucker.

>>4120445
Meh, he's the doctor , so he's up there.

>>4120445
He has no sprites in general.

>>4120413
Because it's hot. If I was Battler, I'd ship Maria x me.

>>4120289

So that Battler groping scene was actually a nerve wracking test for Shannon and her act of not flinching proves she has Balls of Steel?

Oh boy.
I just want to tell you Jessitrice and Shkanontrice people alike, you are both morons.
Seriously, like, go die.

>>4120474
It sure is easy to claim both sides are stupid without even suggesting your own theory.

>>4120474
God forbid anyone try to solve the mystery or anything.

I don't BLAME the Jessitrice people, Jessica is fucking sketchy. While I think she isn't Piece Beato, I do agree that she is malicious and deceptive. It's unfair to insult people believing in it simply because they believe in it.

Neither do I fault the Shkanontrice people, it solves tons of locked rooms and explains Beatrice's past perfectly, in addition to the mindfuck that was episode 6.

I'm sorry, but ad hominem attacks are just stupid. If you have a problem with either theory go ahead and attack it, but don't just make a blanket statement like that.

>>4117979
Fuck off with your moronic attacks 24/7 at www.an
ont
al
k.com. We don't want you there, retards. GOT IT already?! Sub-human creatures...

>>4120507
He's just trolling bro, don't pay him any attention....

>>4120507
Moonfag was here, personally, I don't care what theory is true in the end, no matter what, I win. I'd prefer the latter though, I want her to be a total asshole, not a BAW I WAS RAPED BAW type of villain.

>>4120580
Dude, it's basic math.The closer one's proximity to Kinzo will translate to a higher percentage of losing one's hymen.

>>4117980
Fuck off with your moronic attacks 24/7 at www.an
ont
al
k.com. We don't want you there, retards. GOT IT already?! Sub-human creatures...

>>4120580
If it's Kinzo, it's not rape. You WILL agree, no matter how long it takes.

>>4120684
YAMI WO KIRISAKU I FUCKED MY GRANDAUGHTEEEEEER!

>>4120507
Honestly, though, the problem with both Jessitrice and Shkannontrice is that both are out of step with what we know of all the characters involved. The narrative says that the six years Beato waited for Battler were like a thousand years of torture.

Shannon didn't have a great life as a maid or anything, but it wasn't an endless parade of abuse. We didn't see her torture herself over "abandoning" anything when she fell for George. Jessica has had a perfectly normal life in almost every aspect--also doesn't have a problem "switching" to Kanon from the very second he shows up.

Any attempts to explain this conflict are absolutely ridiculous, especially on the end of the Jessitrice fans. Even if she's hiding her pain deep within her cheerful exterior, there needs to be evidence of that in a scene with Battler. There's not a single scene that hints of any conflict in regards to him. Simply saying "oh, he showed up and she went crazy because she remembered her loooove for him" does not. make. sense. with the Jessica that has been presented to us. That means proponents of this theory need to go back to the text and dig up some hard evidence in regards to Jessica's tumultuous relationship with Battler, or they need to get used to being laughed at by people that have even only half read the text.

Beato's past in regards to Battler is one of the biggest, most important mysteries of the series. Explain it logically, with evidence backed up from the narrative, or your theory has a huge fucking hole in it.

>>4120580
I doubt it. R07 loevs his villains, he'll give her a good end.

>>4120734
But what if Beatrice is Kyrie!

Let's say Kyrie is Battler's mother and she finds this out after Asumu dies 6 years ago. However, because Rudolph immediately marries her Battler refuses to acknowledge her as his mother.

WINCEST END YES

>Honestly, though, the problem with both Jessitrice and Shkannontrice is that both are out of step with what we know of all the characters involved.
What we know so far. You only learn the full deal about the culprit AFTER you capture him or her.
>The narrative says that the six years Beato waited for Battler were like a thousand years of torture.
And that fact doesn't change. We DON'T KNOW how Jessica and Shannon lived, their backstory has not been fully explained.
>Shannon didn't have a great life as a maid or anything, but it wasn't an endless parade of abuse.
We don't know if it was or wasn't, we weren't there!
>We didn't see her torture herself over "abandoning" anything when she fell for George.
We didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. The motive is always explained last.
>Jessica has had a perfectly normal life in almost every aspect--also doesn't have a problem "switching" to Kanon from the very second he shows up.
Well, two things. One, like with Shannon, we have no idea how her life was, for all we know she could have been lolraped, or she could have been a sociopath, we simply do not know.

>Any attempts to explain this conflict are absolutely ridiculous, especially on the end of the Jessitrice fans.
Not really, the cousin's and servant's backstories aren't given to us like the adults backstories are, speculation isn't bad.
>Even if she's hiding her pain deep within her cheerful exterior, there needs to be evidence of that in a scene with Battler.
Well, devil's advocate, Jessica gets along well with Battler and seems to have missed him. Is this enough to be sure that Jessica is Beatrice? No. Is there anyone who would fulfill what you would require? No. Does Piece Beatrice exist? Yes. Can she be her own person with the headcount limit? No.
> There's not a single scene that hints of any conflict in regards to him. Simply saying "oh, he showed up and she went crazy because she remembered her loooove for him" does not. make. sense. with the Jessica that has been presented to us.
Well, it's not much of a mystery if we expose the thoughts of the person. And there are scenes which show that she gets along well with Battler, in addition to a few scenes in episode 6.
>That means proponents of this theory need to go back to the text and dig up some hard evidence in regards to Jessica's tumultuous relationship with Battler, or they need to get used to being laughed at by people that have even only half read the text.
Well, there is nothing to indicate that FOR ANYONE. No character, not Shannon, not Jessica, not ANYONE shows blatant signs of missing Battler, hence the belief that it is an unconcious Persona.

Beato's past in regards to Battler is one of the biggest, most important mysteries of the series.

>Explain it logically, with evidence backed up from the narrative, or your theory has a huge fucking hole in it.
It doesn't have a hole so much as it fills things in. You are basically asking proponents of both theories to point out where it is explicitly shown that Shannon and Jessica miss Battler, but the problem is that it's alot more subtle than that. In your world, everything has to be blatant, but quite frankly, in the end we have a headcount limit, and thus we have to figure out who is Beatrice from there.

>>4120818
Don't forget that Jessica can't actually find a reason as to why she loves Kanon. Their relationship....is hardly.... canon.

>>4120858
YEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
Although try and tell the shippers that....

>>4120895
See, I personally don't get why Kanon x Jessica is so popular. I mean, really, they have nothing between them. There's more between Kanon and Battler than there is between Kanon and Jessica.

Did Natsuhi ever say why she loved Krauss?
Did Kyrie ever say why she loved Rudolf?

>>4121003
Well, chalk it up to girls liking emotionless pretty boys.
Although I think R07 pretty much trolled them, with Kanon being a reverse trap and Jessica quite possibly being evil.

>>4121029
Did Natsuhi fail to say why she loved Krauss when he asked her?
Did Kyrie fail to say why she loved Rudolf when he asked her?

>>4120818
>What we know so far. You only learn the full deal about the culprit AFTER you capture him or her.
Yes, but in every good mystery novel, there is evidence leading up to the big reveal. There is always at least one scene where the person acts particularly, or has a reaction the detective wouldn't expect. There's nothing for Jessica in regards to Battler.

>We DON'T KNOW how Jessica and Shannon lived, their backstory has not been fully explained.
We've had two fucking chapters centered around them, including one in the portion of the game that is supposed to be giving us "answers." Nothing has been hinted in regards to a tragic past involving Battler.

>We don't know if it was or wasn't, we weren't there!
So you're saying the scenes in EP2 were totally pointless, even though Ryukishi went out of his way to point out that all scenes furthered the plot somehow in EP5? There's only so far you can take JESSICA AND SHANNON ARE UTTER, UNKNOWABLE MYSTERIES THAT WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT.

>We didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. The motive is always explained last.
It still needs to be foreshawdowed. Is Umineko the only novel you've ever written? According to what you're saying, Genji's tragic love for Battler would make just as much sense because "we just don't know maaaaaan, it's just imposssssssible to tell what the characters are like, maaaaaaan!"

>>4121042

>One, like with Shannon, we have no idea how her life was, for all we know she could have been lolraped, or she could have been a sociopath, we simply do not know.
But she compartmentalizes her sociopathy and lolraped so perfectly status so that there's not even a single hint of it until the big reveal in EP1232938? Bullshit.

>Jessica gets along well with Battler and seems to have missed him.
So it naturally follows that she is insanely in love with him and created an alternate personality to deal with the overflow of feelings for him? Even though she displays no awkwardness or oddness around him at all? OH BATTLER, I'VE WAITED SO LONG FOR THIS DAY, FINALLY MY ONE THOUSAND YEARS OF TORTURE HAVE ENDED--NOW HOLD STILL SO I CAN GRAB YOUR DICK!

>No character, not Shannon, not Jessica, not ANYONE shows blatant signs of missing Battler
Exactly. So you should be thinking about what that means instead of going "hurrr, if I chop off this corner of the piece, it might fit in the puzzle."

>but the problem is that it's alot more subtle than that.
Then find implication. You can't. Because there is none.

>>4121029
I'm pretty sure every character has given plenty of reason why they love their partners. Natsuhi gave plenty of reason during episode 5 didn't she?

>>4121029
meet
>>4121033

Kanon tells Jessica why he likes her, calling her his sun(oh the irony!). Jessica fails to respond with why she likes him.

>>4121029
Natsuhi explained why she loved Krauss when she remembers her past, the same woth Kyrie and every couple in Rokkenjima. You know why they love each other but Jessica and Kanon (you know why Kanon does, but not Jessica's reason)

>>4121047
>Jessica fails to respond with why she likes him.
Because she's shallow and doesn't have a deep reason as to why. But she's still happy he loves her and is willing to fight for it.

>But she compartmentalizes her sociopathy and lolraped so perfectly status so that there's not even a single hint of it until the big reveal in EP1232938? Bullshit.
Well, dude, we are learning about who Piece Beato is, that's a good chunk of episode 6. It is THE defining mystery of the game. And we do know that Jessica and Shannon are highly suspect, so it's not coming from nowhere. To understand one's motives you need either a direct passage into one's mind. Anything else is speculation, and thus we do have to wait near the end of the mystery to find out.

>So it naturally follows that she is insanely in love with him and created an alternate personality to deal with the overflow of feelings for him? Even though she displays no awkwardness or oddness around him at all?
>OH BATTLER, I'VE WAITED SO LONG FOR THIS DAY, FINALLY MY ONE THOUSAND YEARS OF TORTURE HAVE ENDED--NOW HOLD STILL SO I CAN GRAB YOUR DICK!
Well, the idea here is that it is repressed, and him being on the island triggers it.

>No character, not Shannon, not Jessica, not ANYONE shows blatant signs of missing Battler
Exactly. So you should be thinking about what that means instead of going "hurrr, if I chop off this corner of the piece, it might fit in the puzzle."
Well, you just seem to want things blatantly spelled out for you, and I admit freely there is nothing that PROVES either theory. However, once again, we know that Piece-Beato is NOT her own person, and so we have to go with who fits best. You cursing like an infant doesn't change that.

>Then find implication. You can't. Because there is none
There is the end of episode 6, and there is the deception Jessica takes part in, there is the dialogue Shannon has with Kanon, there's tons of things that hint for it, but there is nothing to prove it. Which makes sense, as the story isn't over yet.

>>4121044
Well, I think you are being a bit unreasonable here. Both sides have claimed that it is a theory, they don't treat it like an absolute fact.

And naturally, for you to try and call them to "prove" it is unfair, because neither side can. But I think that it's a fair assumption to make, based on Episode 6's red text, that someone is also Beatrice. I mean, the only other explanation is that Beatrice is her own piece who comes onto the island at a specific time, the logistics of which are retarded.

I tend not to delve into the Beatrice issue myself, but I do indeed think that someone is masquerading as her, through a persona or otherwise. For you to just say you don't see enough evidence doesn't really do any good, as in the end there is a Beatrice that appeared in episode 4, and with only 16 people allowed on the island, she had to be SOMEONE.

>>4121081

>Well, the idea here is that it is repressed, and him being on the island triggers it.
And there's absolutely no sign of it in her interactions with him? Uh, okay.

>Well, you just seem to want things blatantly spelled out for you
I don't want things spelled out, I want lines of dialogue and scenes that could be read as Jessica having been raped, or being a sociopath, and having unique, unexplained reactions to Battler. I want the same for Shannon.

>There is the end of episode 6, and there is the deception Jessica takes part in, there is the dialogue Shannon has with Kanon, there's tons of things that hint for it
None of those things are about "Beatrice" and Battler.

>>4121129
>with only 16 people allowed on the island
Never stated. There is more than one explanation for the text at the end of six than Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice or Jessica = Beatrice.

>>4121176
Well, what is your theory, then?
It's not fair to simply bash other theories without presenting your own....

>>4121195
Ridiculous. So me not knowing exactly how the mystery will play out somehow makes the stupid theories of others more valid? Genji/Battler 4eva lololololol.

>>4121211
Ridiculous? My good sir, how can you possibly say there isn't enough evidence for something and yet have no clue yourself?
Really, and I thought you were getting somewhere with this whole LACK OF EVIDENCE thing, but no, you just are a troll.

>>4121211
Oh, screw you pal. Call bullshit on everything, but when push comes to shove you have no idea yourself. Yeah, real helpful, buddy.

>>4121224
Is this denied in red? Just because Battler is saying it doesn't mean it isn't true.

>>4121224
Ah, here we go! Do tell, how does Eva shoot down Battler's argument here?

>>4121223
>>4121228
Sorry, bullshit is bullshit. I'm at a loss too, but at least I'm not trying to pretend I know all the answers while raping characterization to prove it.

>>4121237
>>4121240
She avoids by saying Jessica was blinded, she does not mentions the DID

>>4121240
Ah, wait, dug it up.
>Jessica's eyes were completely blocked, and murder was impossible for her
>No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo

Interestingly enough, there is no red text that denies personas, even when Battler asks directly about it. That is something we should keep in mind.

>>4121247
Oh, don't get me wrong, the farthest I go is suspicion and lies, I don't, however, delve into Beatrice theories. But, do be aware that this could all become true at the end.

Explain to me what "DID" means in this case.

>>4121270
Oh wow, very odd that EVAtrice didn't directly deny that in red, she was so freely denying everything with the red....