/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Who are you quoting?

Who are you quoting?

>>32617271
>>32617277
Based on what?

Could Shinto even work in the west?
If you copy it directly from Japan, a lot of it won't make sense.
If somebody bothered to adapt it into a more universal version, would it even be Shinto any more?
I think if you are neither Japanese nor living in Japan, it would make more sense just to make a little shrine and present offerings to local nature spirits and ancestors.

>>32617231
>anyone here talking about religion

>>32617442
>make more sense just to make a little shrine and present offerings to local nature spirits and ancestors
Is that not basically what shinto is?

>>32617442
There are are a few Shinto shrines in the US. The Hawaiian shrine says that George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and King Kamehameha are Kami. George for forming America, Abe for uniting it after the civil war, and King Kamehameha is sort of the embodiment of the Hawaiian Islands. Also, the shrine in Washington has enshrined a Kami who's name translates into Defender of North America. These are shrines officially recognized by the Japanese government, so I don't see why Shinto can't be globally successful.

>>32617442
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsubaki_Grand_Shrine_of_America

I'm not well versed in Shinto but someone already tried it. The Imperial Japanese also tried it but with different approach and it doesn't work because it promotes Japanese superiority over others.

What intrigues me the most is how George Washington is enshrined as Kami in a Shinto shrine in Hawaii.

>>32617814
>>32617904
>George Washington
Sorry but as a Brit, I cannot follow any religion that worships that traitorous Y*nkee dog

>>32617231
I didn't leave an offering as I knew nothing about the faith when I was there ~6 years ago. Kinda feel like a piece of shit now that I know what I did wrong. Glad only the spirits and a local cat know that I was being a dumb gaijin.
I also visited Kanda Myojin, not knowing it's importance of course and when I passed through the rope circle (I have tried looking up what it is called, but I think Shimenawa is something different, could be wrong) and felt what I can only describe as a disturbance. It is probably my strongest memory of my short time in Japan.

As for the religion itself, I just see it as Japanese Paganism with a focus on their own Gods rather than a sort of global catch all that Abrahamic faiths try to do.

>>32617231
There's been a Taoist thread some time ago.

>>32617904
The Japanese built Shrines in places they colonized in WW2 and tried to force people to worship Japanese Kami. If they went with the plan to enshrine local deities as Kami, like they had originally planned, then they may have been more successful. Basically, Shinto works, but the Japanese government's Department of State Shinto does not.

>>32617231
How many true, legitimate believers in Shinto are there? Legitimate as in truly believes the Shinto religion and metaphysics and making offerings, not just attending the shrine festivals. It seems like it largely died out after the Americans invaded Japan and forced Hirohito to capitulate and Hirohito was effectively dethroned as a deity (dedeified?).

>>32617904
>en.m.

who are you quoting

>>32618200
What do you refer to as legitimate? Reverence to the Gods and tradition is still alive and well. Shinto just has less fanatics now or any for that matter. Seriously when was the last act of terror committed in the name of Shinto or at the very least the Emperor of Japan?

>>32618200
Depends on how you define it exactly.
According to data from NHK, over 80% of Japanese attend or participate in Shinto rituals to some degree.
But only 3% of Japanese are signed up members to Shinto organisations or registered as a member of a shrine.

It's not quite the same as the situation with Christianity in Northern Europe, but there's a certain similarly.
Most people who engage in celebrations, holidays, maybe visit a religious site once a twice a year.
But only a very small minority are signed up members who belong to an organisation or know the theology.

>>32618531
That's the norm in Buddhist countries, I think Hinduism may be the same way. Strong adherence to traditions and customs, while the law is mostly secularized.

>>32617231
This has nothing to do with otaku culture.

>>32618200
Shinto is very confucian in how it functions, what it stands for and the function it has in society. Especially modern society.
Shinto these days is mainly a collection of things that people do, because it is just part of living in society.
While there still is "meaning" attached to it, the real point of shintoist practices is the ritual itself. The most known example of this is perhaps Hatsumōde, the point isn't really anything religious, it's just a social ritual.
When you visit a shrine you wash your hands and mouth and make an offering. Not to worship the kami, not really. But because it simply is what you do. The ritual itself is the point.
This is a very different way of viewing religious practice compared to most of the west. In Europe you have similar things around Easter and Christmas, where the (religious) ritual is more important than the actual meaning of the ritual, but it's much more limited.

>>32618769
Speak for yourself, but I am a shrine maiden otaku.

>>32618007
>As for the religion itself, I just see it as Japanese Paganism with a focus on their own Gods rather than a sort of global catch all that Abrahamic faiths try to do.
Yeah that's about my take on it. Like all religions, along its path of survival it also absorbed a bunch of bits and pieces from other cultural influences, and that doesn't seem to bother anyone. Discussions of how Christianity borrowed a bunch of ceremonies and symbolism from across the Levant, and then Europe, is treated by some as a slight to the faith. In Japan if you ask about when some Shinto practice originated, sometimes answer is "Oh some time in the 1800's some people just started doing it and it caught on", and it isn't a big deal. For example, Shinto wedding ceremonies.

>>32618200
Was Japanese Emperor always been regarded as living god or was it just a simplification? Cause from my understanding I saw them as more like the Shinto Pope with the blood of god running through their veins.

>>32618481
>What do you refer to as legitimate? Reverence to the Gods and tradition is still alive and well.
Believing in it as a religion, perhaps listing oneself as "Shinto" in the census category if there is a religious census category in Japan.
>But only 3% of Japanese are signed up members to Shinto organisations or registered as a member of a shrine.
Okay, those are the numbers I was looking for more or less.
>Shinto is very confucian in how it functions, what it stands for and the function it has in society. Especially modern society.
It makes sense, considering how Shinto was effectively built from the ground up during the Meiji Restoration as a revival of pre-Buddhist Japanese spiritual traditions. They needed a framework from somewhere, in this case I supposed they used the Confucianism prevalent in East Asia.
>the rest of your post
Thank you, very informative. I appreciate it.

>>32619029
I forgot to quote
>>32618886
and
>>32618853

>>32619028
I think Japanese state propaganda was effective enough during the Second Sino-Japanese War that he was effectively perceived as a deity.

>>32618003
As a brit you cannot follow any religion at all.

>>32619029
What is religion really. The more I learn about Asian religion, the more confused I am. The common interpretation of religion that is based around the Abrahamic Faiths cannot be applied to the eastern religion. I realize this when I heard that Japanese live as a Shintoist but died as a Buddhist.

>>32619516
>The common interpretation of religion that is based around the Abrahamic Faiths cannot be applied to the eastern religion.
This is incredibly true. I enjoy studying religions but it's very hard to separate the domains of religion, culture and philosophy with certain Eastern traditions.

>>32619029
Confucianism isn't religious practice. When I compare Shinto to confucianism, I mean a certain reverence of the ritual itself. Confucious believed that everyone showing proper decorum and properly following the rites and expected behaviors leads towards building a good and harmonious society, but also that what these things actually are doesn't matter, not really. It's the act of engaging in the ritual that is important.
And modern Shinto functions in exactly this way. Everyone more or less, engages in the rituals, because it is the thing you do. Not because the rituals have any important meaning. That's what I meant when I referenced Confucius. I am sorry if that was ambiguous.

>>32619516
Religion is a tool to shape and control society.
It's important to remember that something like Buddhism, despite the outside-facing pacifism is just as blood-drenched as all the other religions.

>>32619706
Going by that definition, a constitution could be regarded as religion then.

>>32619706
>Confucianism isn't religious practice.
It has such an emphasis on observing ritual propriety that I'd argue it's on the boundary of a religion. There are Confucian temples and schools built for the purpose of studying the tradition with a religious emphasis placed on the dogma.

The closest comparable Western tradition I can think of is Stoicism as practiced by the more devout adherents, wherein a complex set of metaphysics were adhered to and a single, rational deity recognized rather than the set of Greco-Roman deities.

>>32619706
An interesting trend I notice in Japanese media is how some (not all) groups of religious are depicted as militant and crazy. I'm not that familiar with their history but it seems like some monasteries were at the heart of many conflicts due to their ties to the government, and to see their religion as totally peaceful is a result of our distance from it.

>>32617231
>Implying retards here care for any culture other than idols and anime tiddies

>>32617231
2 years ago i think it was at Ise Shrine

Btw i love hololive and fuck thôhôniggas

>>32619028
He was formally recognised as an actual god only during the imperial period, he was conceptualized as a sacred link between men and heaven as long as history was recorded in Japan

>>32617814
has anyone here been to any of these shrines? I can't imagine Americans being as orderly, quiet and respectful as people at shrines in Nippon are.

>>32619848
No, because you need to distinguish between a "state" and "society". Of course, a constitution influences the way people do things and in many ways constitutions replaced religion in the function of "defining what a state is". The Kings derive their right to rule (really private ownership of their domain) from a divine mandate. The one who gave the King their legitimacy is the pope, who is the highest authority on the will of God on Earth.
Of course, Americans are a bit more direct about how Constitutions are religions, but I don't want to talk particularly much about this here.

What's important to note is that the big asian religions, Hinduism, the Dao and Buddhism are much more insidious about how they aim to control the people than "if you're bad you go to hell and suffer for all eternity".

>>32620311
The one in Hawaii is fine. Mostly because there's not a lot of people there. It's a good shrine, I like it. Even if I didn't see any cute shrine maidens.

>>32617814
theres one in colorado too
I don't know if its official though

>>32619028
The royal family is decended from the Kami, much like how the English royal family is decended from Odin and Jesus. This makes it really easy for the emperor to be enshrined as a Kami, but not all are. The emperor during WW2 was a Japanese Supremacist, and declared himself to be a living Kami, destined to crush the ring of fire for the nazi cause. He gets swept under the rug, along with a lot of Japan's war crimes.

>>32618886
I mean, so what? Atheists celebrate Christmas without caring about christianity, and plenty of kids join in on Easter egg hunts without knowing about anything about Jesus. They are done because they are always done, but that doesn't make them less "real."

>>32619848
Yes. Many religious scholars talk about a theoretical American civil religion.

>>32617231
who are you quoting?

>>32621144
Please dont believe a word of this post

>>32621288
Please do believe a word of this post.

>>32617231
>Claims to be interested in culture
>Doesn't know anything about the board culture of the board he's making a thread on
Who am I quoting?

>>32624926
4D loli holograms aren't culture, and are barely Japanese.

>>32620388
>Even if I didn't see any cute shrine maidens.
imagine cute tan hawaiian shrine maiden lol

>>32617231
Ah yes the shinto otaku

>>32628530
Haha now THAT'S a funny image

How does a dead person becoming a kami after death work with the large scale Buddhist influence and reincarnation.

>>32617231
I wish shinto was like a real worldwide religion. I would totally weeb out and join that shit .

>>32630531
Also, why the fuck do they have no holy books?

Weren't the nips obsessed with reading back then?

>>32617442
>Could Shinto even work in the west?
I think Shinto is not that far from grassroot religions with things like druids and shit, but most of them have been wiped (well, integrated and dissolved) into big religions

>>32630245
in buddhism it baaically
do great things => get sent to heaven
do bad things => get sent to hell
do more great things => become a kami/higher detities
do even more great thing (like buddha) => reach nivarna aka leave the reincarnation loop
I don't know what happen if you do more bad things one though

>>32630578
decentralize religion I think? I mean everyone got their own kamis in each every area so it probabbly hard to get all that record

What's the male equivalent of a miko? A kannagi? Or do Shinto shrines never hire males for part-time work like they do for females?

>>32630613
Shinto gods are mostly tied to the land they live at/shrines. You would basically have to make up gods to live in non japanese shrines.

You might get some major gods you can worship anywhere, but the religion doesn't make much sense living outside of japan.

>>32631459
Europe had lots of "religions" like that before christianity, that often got integrated into christianity after. You would have to search for them but they're here. In America just look at natives religions

>>32630820
kannushi

They are not the same but closest equivalent

I'm a heathen, and the way I honor my gods aren't too different from how the japanese do it. But, that doesn't mean i consider myself a shintoist, certainly because there is no reason for me to honor the gods of Japan if i don't reside in Japan

>>32617231
I ripped my best friend apart and tore her entrails out, all for Oyashiro-sama.

>>32617231
Not even the Japanese believe in shinto anymore lol

>>32630578
All gods and shrines were recorded by the imperial court eventually but each god has its own desire and rituals , it's all about tradition and not doctrine

>>32646735
Shinto was always open to foreign divinities anyway

Bump for Oyashiro-sama

>>32617271
>>32617277
>/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>32666304

>>32617231
I find Shinto quite interesting, especially how they coexist with Buddhism without any problem. It seems most japs follow both religions togther.
Is Shinto compatible with other religions like that? What is their view on Christianism?

>>32672546
>especially how they coexist with Buddhism without any problem
I'm not sure if 'coexist' is the word. Some nationalists still see Buddhism as a korean import. And iirc there were multiple pushes to absord buddhist stuffs into Shinto during the 18th/19th century.
Nips are ok with Buddhism because it's been largely defanged and more or less incorporated into Shinto.

As for Christianism, I believe it's just a curiosity to them, a thing they see on foreign drama. Christians are nearly nonexistent in Japan.

shit thread kill yourself

good thread op

I've been to a lot of Shinto Shrines and made offerings and did the whole praying thing to ask the kami to not let me die while I climb a mountain or camp in the forest. Not fully serious though.
What I find really nice is that many countryside Shinto Shrines or Buddhist Temples have benches and a little playground (unfortunately often overgrown and no longer used) on the site. If I think about how it works in Germany, if children were to play on the grounds next to a church someone would probably call the police on them or shoo them away.

>>32694253
They let gaijin pray at the shrines? I thought it was 禁止

>>32618481
Actually do the japs in general still believe the emperor is divine? I had a japanese roommate in college and he always dodged that question.

>>32618706
Nah, I lived in India for a while. Vast majority of them are true believers not Sunday only church like in the west.

>>32699595
Not >>32694253, but what makes you think that?
In my experience, shrines that aren't major/famous are pretty empty most days, and just seemed happy to have someone there, as long as you know how to behave.

>>32699979
I took a bus tour through Japan and our tour guide basically said
>Foreigners are not encouraged to visit the smaller shrines as it is seen as an unlwelcome intrusion by the locals.

She seemed to imply that the major ones are open to it because they are tourist attractions but the more mom and pop shrines will find it shamefur

>>32618853
>state religion is about pointlessness
>they still use kanji
checks out

>>32700087
Huh, I guess because she assume you'll act all tourist-y and wanted to spare her countrymen the awkward experience? I lived in Nagoya for two years and never had a problem visiting a shrine once in a while.

>>32700087
I have been guided around by local Japanese in various small towns in the countryside and they were fucking overjoyed to show me the shrines and (even though I already knew) how to worship them. One of them had a lucky stone with a hole that brings you luck if you manage to crawl through, we all had a blast doing it.
Despite what many people think, Japanese love it when you appreciate their culture and history.

>>32700323
I would say the opposite, actually.
I think religion without ritual is meaningless, because the purpose is the ritual, the act of worship itself. Not whatever faith or believe or superstition you might have. The point of religion is the act of performing a miracle. In the catholic rite this is the transformation of bread and wine into the flesh and blood of Jesus. In the Shitoist rite, it is to cleanse yourself of worldly things and to commune with the kami.
The rite is the only thing that separates the divine from the mundane.

>>32700616
I think that's the norm for the whole world. Every local citizens would be delighted if the tourist came and actually care to learn about the local culture. Sadly most tourist everywhere prefer to come to take photo, probably buying some souvenirs and occasionally trashing up the place instead.

>>32713277
Unfortunately this is also true for domestic tourists, but international tourists who are truly interested in the culture of any country beyond the surface level are quite rare yeah

>>32618003
At least you can say your nation got btfo by god. Just a little bit less humiliating

How do I convert from Judaism?

>>32700616
How'd you arrange that sort of thing?

turned out to be a good thread, OP. love threads like this

>>32630531
>>32630578
holy fuck /v/ tourists ruined this board

you can't be older than 14

>>32621288
T.netouyo

>>32646735
Are you part of a group or do you practice alone? Earth religions like Shinto and Heathenry interest me, and I found a Heathenry group in my area, but you have to be interviewed to be able to attend. Is that normal?

>>32731189
You need to go back.

>>32731189
Welcome to the party.

I want to be an omiyouji.

>>32739442
You need to be a Taoist first.