/jp/ - Otaku Culture

isn't it because he was an upstart peasant?

Or was that some other guy?

Isn't he the one that started this?

>>2483876
Toyotomi Hideyoshi was the peasant footsolder turred ruler of all japan

Because he lost.

>>2483871
not evil.

Tsao Tsao always gets a bum rap too for some reason.

I guess there's just something about particularly cunning men that makes for good folklore villains.

>>2483963
Blergh. That was Hideyoshi. Nevermind~

>>2483871
I always wonder wtf would happen if Oda had not been assassinated...

After japan was unified that idiot Ieyasu banned trade and kept things assbackwards.

With Oda, Japan might have conquered all of china or some shit.

I only know what you're talking about because I played Warriors Orochi.

Every one of the sengoku warlords has been considered as a hero or as a villain at least once.
It's because of the moral ambiguity of the period, each of the warlords was a ruthless bastard who also did many great things, combined with the fact that there was really no major ruling power in japan at the time, so history doesn't really consider anyone as a villain or a hero.
The lack of a standard dominating ideology is extremely important, imagine if the account of the first crusade would be if written from an angle that didn't come from either the dominating christians in europe or the dominating islamic historians in asia.

>>2484021
>imagine if the account of the first crusade would be if written from an angle that didn't come from either the dominating christians in europe or the dominating islamic historians in asia.
It would be under the lines of "Both sides had their ups and downs but at then end it was fucking stupid".

>>2484033
Congratulations you just summed up japanese history in one sentance.

>>2484036

I'd say that's pretty much all human history summed up.

>>2484046
That would be "All sides had their ups and downs but at then end Skynet fucked them hard".

what if ancient japan fought against ancient korea? who will win?

Sengoku France

>>2483871
He massacred the Buddhist living in Japan.

PUT YA GANZ AWN

>>2484076
dey fought and both won and lost

>>2484076
Japan did fuck up what was left of the Mongol failed invasions with ease and limited their expansion, it depends where the battle was fought. Logistics in those days were a nightmare overseas.

>>2484100
Actually a nice fit, analogy-wise. France had a long unification period with the "King of the Franks" being a largely titular ruler of all France in the mean time. But there wasn't any kind of Le Shogunate thing going on, the King unified France himself.

>>2484118
fighting an weakened enemy without reinforcements, depleting food and arms, low morale is hard how?

>>2483998

>Conquering Ming Dynasty China

Keep dreaming.

>>2484076
It happened. Japanese lost pretty badly. Of course if no allies were involved, them it'd be different.

>>2484210
it was korean/chinese vs korean/japan

even if there were to be no allies, the cataphracts of the Tang would bitchslap the rice farmer army back into the ocean

>>2484210
Koreans fucking cheated by using ironclads and rocket launchers when they shouldn't be used for another few centuries.

>>2484243

You know how good those Koreans are at tech tree climbing...

This is now an Akira Kurosawa thread.

Ran, why it is better than King Lear:
Continuing role of the fool baiting the mad king.
Gender reversal.
The Bitch. She shits all over Lady MacBeth in terms of being hardcore.
The anti-pure land buddhist ideology.
The constant use of wind in the film.

>>2484286

>ran
>better than King Lear

Weeaboo detected.

>>2484294
It is. Lear's a fuck-up. Not as bad as Othello. MacBeth might be able to challenge Ran. Richard III shits all over Kagemusha.

Its not weeaboo to say a work is better when it is.

>>2484310

I find it mildly difficult to believe that a play considered to be one of the Bard of Avon's greatest works can be called a fuck-up.

A more suitable choice would have been The Two Gentlemen of Verona, a play which was notably unpopular in the English-speaking world.

>>2484310

>Richard III shits all over Kagemusha.

NAKADAI TATUYA AS TAKEDA SHINGEN AND HIS DOUBLE WAS HERE

SHAKESPEAR IS A FAGGOT

>>2484345
"You have a daughter" >> <mounts the unridable horse>

>>2484339
Yeah or Titus. The point with Lear is that it isn't as fully worked as Ran.

Lear never faces what Hidetora does:
Lady Kaede's magnificent "just as planned" from the position of a female master manipulator.

Wiki explains adequately why Shakespeare is inferior, "However, there are some crucial differences between the two. King Lear is a play about undeserved suffering and Lear himself is at worst a fool. Hidetora, by contrast, has been a cruel warrior for most of his life, a man who ruthlessly murdered men, women, and children to achieve his goals.[11] In the film, Lady Kaede, Lady Sué, and Tsurumaru were all victims of Hidetora; whereas in "King Lear" the character of Gloucester had his eyes gouged out by Lear's enemies, in Ran it was Hidetora himself who gave the order to do the same to Tsurumaru. Kurosawa also expanded the role of the Fool into a major character (Kyoami), while also making him sexually ambiguous (he was played by "Peter", an entertainer well-known for cross-dressing). His other major addition was Lady Kaede, who is the polar opposite of Kyoami. Although he probably based her on Shakespeare's Goneril, she is a much more complex and important character in the film.[12]"

>>2484345
RICHARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRD

Wasn't he the badguy in Ninja Turtles 3?

>>2484100
Most smaller duchies were ultimately vassals of the French King, or at least heavily indebted to him. There was infighting, of course, but France was never as fractured as Japan was.

>>2484371
Germany was.

>>2484364

Wikipedia is notoriously biased and riddled with inaccuracies. I wouldn't make a habit of quoting it if I were you, but your point is well taken.

>>2484378
Okay, yeah, Germany was a clusterfuck for a good millennium, I'll give you that.

>>2484378
>>2484371
What about Italy pre-unification?
Particularly renaissance er, when it was many city states constantly warring, changing alliances, etc.

Plus, THE VATICAN, back when the pope would have his army go kill some motherfuckers.

>>2484381
Again, quoted for its utility in this conversation as it adequately summarised my views tersely and without flame. Not quoted for "authority".

MacBeth > Redbeard though.

mai waifu

>>2484419
You had better be kidding.

I thought he was the bad guy because of Nobunaga's sword hunt.
Disarming the populace is the first step towards tyranny.

>>2484428

It goes well with all the other posts in the thread. Take this shit out of here.

Because Oda Nobunaga burnt Buddha temples and massacred Buddhists.

>>2484429
That was Ieyasu some decades later.

Oda Nobunaga used guns so fucking much his men got better at using them than the Europeans that first introduced them

Also, gtfo and go back to /k/

>>2484478
>persecute Christians
Wat.

The Demon nickname comes in two ways. One, he was a huge dick towards people. Crushing Buddhist sects and also an early persecutor of Christians. Two, his unorthodox tactics.

>>2484405

Anything is better than Redbeard.

Disarming the people, more like disarming the workers, am I right?

This is now a Japanese Communist party thread.

>>2484478

Oda liked the Christians. It was Toyotomi, and later Tokugawa, who outlawed them.

>>2484310
I have to say that Julius Caesar and MacBeth were the only Shakespeare plays I actually enjoyed.

>>2484492

That's nice, dear.

>This is now a Japanese Communist party thread.

DID SOMEBODY SAY JAPANESE COMMUNIST PARTY.

'CUZ I THINK I JUST HEARD SOMEONE SAY JAPANESE COMMUNIST PARTY.

>>2484508

Does anyone have a Japanese version of Le Internationale?

>>2483871
Want to report, but I cant. Since when is /jp/ a board about Japanese history?

If it's not 2D it shouldn't belong here, *in *my *opinion.

>>2484514
Check sovmusic.ru/english/

>>2484456
Buddhists were always persecuted in Japan. The same goes for Confucians and Christians.

>>2484513
/jp/ Japan - General. Sounds like "Japan - History" is a subset of "Japan - General" and not on another board, like say, /jh/ or /hi/.

>>2484522
Certain sects were persecuted. Kind of like how the Papal states persecuted non-Catholic Christians.

Tolstoy is right in saying that Lear is not a very good play, as a play. It is too drawn-out and has too many characters and sub-plots. One wicked daughter would have been quite enough, and Edgar is a superfluous character: indeed it would probably be a better play if Gloucester and both his sons were eliminated. Nevertheless, something, a kind of pattern, or perhaps only an atmosphere, survives the complications and the longueurs. Lear can be imagined as a puppet show, a mime, a ballet, a series of pictures. Part of its poetry, perhaps the most essential part, is inherent in the story and is dependent neither on any particular set of words, nor on flesh-and-blood presentation.

Shut your eyes and think of King Lear, if possible without calling to mind any of the dialogue. What do you see? Here at any rate is what I see; a majestic old man in a long black robe, with flowing white hair and beard, a figure out of Blake's drawings (but also, curiously enough, rather like Tolstoy), wandering through a storm and cursing the heavens, in company with a Fool and a lunatic. Presently the scene shifts and the old man, still cursing, still understanding nothing, is holding a dead girl in his arms while the Fool dangles on a gallows somewhere in the background. This is the bare skeleton of the play, and even here Tolstoy wants to cut out most of what is essential. He objects to the storm, as being unnecessary, to the Fool, who in his eyes is simply a tedious nuisance and an excuse for making bad jokes, and to the death of Cordelia, which, as he sees it, robs the play of its moral. According to Tolstoy, the earlier play. King Leir, which Shakespeare adapted

terminates more naturally and more in accordance with the moral demands of the spectator than does Shakespeare's; namely, by the King of the Gauls conquering the husbands of the elder sisters, and by Cordelia, instead of being killed, restoring Leir to his former position.

>>2484522
Japan was never Buddhist.

>>2484523
It looks better if you call it Japan/General than Type-Moon/Touhou/Idolfags.

>>2484540
Arise you weeaboo from your slumbers
Arise you children of Zen Converts
For /jp/ in revolt now thunders
And at last ends the age of Touhou

Away with your yandere pillows
Servile maidu ARISE ARISE
Henceforth we'll break your breaking traditions
And from your wifeu we'll steal the prize

So /jp/-rades come rally
And the last fight let us face
Respect for non-otaku Japan culture
Unites the /jp/ apace


So /jp/-rades come rally
And the last fight let us face
Respect for non-otaku Japan culture
Unites the /jp/ apace

>>2484564
Cool speech bro

>>2484564
/jp/ - Tohonifun

>>2484588

The Holy Roman Empire would then scramble to pacify the rebellion as best as they could. The events of White Mountain and Dessau Bridge would play out, while Arcueid remains inactive. The Emperor soon calls upon her to support him, and in response she mobilizes her own army. Cue another battle between the Imperial Forces and the Protestants, supported by Arcueid's infantry.
By now it becomes completely obvious that Roa is behind the entire conflict, and it becomes a priority of the Church to hunt him down.
The conflict continues to spiral out of control, with the Holy Roman Empire struggling to push back the combined might of Sweden, Bohemia, Denmark, the Dutch Republic, France, Saxony, England, Brandenburg-Prussia, and Transylvania. Arcueid's military strength dwindles little by little, as she herself is forced to defend her territory from encroaching Protestant forces.

The rest, everyone already knows. Roa gets killed, Arcueid retreats to her tomb, and the The Peace of Westphalia ensures that there will be no more large-scale fighting for a while, at least.

tldr: The Thirty Years' War was the direct result of Arcueid and Roa getting into a pissing contest.

/speaking in third person. But anyway. That is how I 'filled in the blanks' where Nasu failed to give proper explanation, for my own amusement.

In b4 'fascinating'

While we are on the subject of history...

Kinoko Nasu made mention of Arcueid's alliance with the Church and her consequent slaying of the errant sorcerer-turned-vampire Michael Roa Valdamajong, but never went into detail about it.
Awhile ago I mentioned some details about the Millennium Castle Brunestud, resulting in a hotly contested debate about its origins, but I seem to have forgotten to explain where this all comes form.

Think back to the year 1618, the beginning of the Thirty Years' War. One of the most destructive conflicts in the history of Europe, it involved nearly all the of the countries at certain points. Germany was unfortunate enough to bear the brunt of it.
As we all know, Roa made it a point to position himself in places of power.
It is then no long shot to assume that soon he spread dissent amongst the Bohemians, eventually culminating in them throwing important persons out of windows at Prague.
Later, he would unite several minor nations of Europe in a campaign against the aging Holy Roman Empire.

>>2484572
prrrt.

>>2484591
Interesting.

>>2484726

Well played, Mima! Well played.

>>2484513
I would usually agree, but this shit is interesting.

>>2484513
The truly sad thing is that you're not trolling and that this is the opinion of many people on this particular board.

>>2484801
What shit is interesting? The actual topic or the multiple tangents that diverged off?

>>2485912
>truly sad thing
Get out of /jp/.

ITT we play Total War?

>>2484537
Shinto didn't even have a name until it became necessary to differentiate between traditional Japanese religion and Buddhism, since the latter was assimilating the shit out of Japan.

>>2485962
Thought I might tell you guys, a Total War mod where you can unite Japan and conquer GREATER EAST ASIA. Not out yet though.

It's called All Under Heaven, find it at twcenter.net forums.

>>2483871
>>Why is Wakamoto considered evil in almost all japanese fiction? Was he more ruthless than any of the other 93452 warlords during the Sengoku period? or was it just because he was smart enough to use guns?
Surely it cant be anti-western because Nobunaga's gunner regiments were more advanced at the end of the 16th century than even his European contemporaries... so he was better than the west in that regard

>Why is Oda Nobunaga considered evil in almost all japanese fiction?

He lost. That is all there is to need. The winner writes history.

>Why is Oda Nobunaga considered evil in almost all japanese fiction?

He lost. This is all there is to know. The winner writes history.

>>2486302
He lost... so why arent the other bazillion warlords thought as bad? Or even worse, since Oda actually united all of japan when all the others couldn't?
Ieyasu built the Tokugawa shogunate but even he's not usually portrayed as some grand hero is he?

It's common to demonize your greatest enemy after battle.

>>2486316
Lies. He's considered evil because Date Masamune and Takeda Shingen make for better main characters in animu.

>>2486350
owow you need a reality check
It's common in authoritarian societies to idolize the Fuhrer and demonize his opposition. Tokugawa etablished a oppresive fascist regime, while the system made him into the person who reunited Japan and brought back a 200+ years phase of peace and lalelula bullshit

>>2486394
I'd post a Kyon facepalm, but a lot of people wouldn't like that.

>>2486316

For all intents and purposes, he won. I mean, yeah, he died before unifying all of Japan but in the end it was his lieutenant, Hideyoshi, who completed the conquest rather than one of his rivals. If you were to use a sports analogy, it's like the quarterback being injured but the backup pulling the team to victory anyhow.

Honestly, I think the reason is *because* he won (or was winning until his untimely end). It's natural to side with the underdog rather than the top dog and Oda was the top dog.

>>2486401
forgot this line

"in b4 butthurt super weeabos going LULZWUT"