/jp/ - Otaku Culture

EIGHT THREADS.

Is that a record on /jp/? I think Cirno and Yukari have come close.

>>19918453

I want to kill Reimu in her sleep with a knife.

Reimu may be the biggest obstacle to the liberation of the Human Village from Youkai oppression. Off with her head.

>>19918797
A public lynching would be better.

>>19918797
humans are so foolish, they cannot even help themselves.
how much better they are under the watchful eye of yokai!

>>19918725
>>19918797
>>19919161
>>19919310
Silly youkai, fret not for I shall be the instrument of your extinction.

>>19919310
And yet the Human Villagers standards of living are miserable compared to the outside world. It's almost like Youkai are evil.

>>19919384
It's almost like you're a dumb roleplaying mentally ill faggot who can't go a single day without pushing his dumb fanfiction shit.

>>19919399
Not a argument.

>>19919448
There's no need to argue against dumb fanfiction shit.

>>19919384
have you been to the outside world? There are many suffering, feeble and in constant fear of wars, famines, and much death. Many long to get to Gensokyo to live in happiness under yokai rule, and how much many more have not heard of Gensokyo, yet cling to buddhas, kami, and yokai for salvation.
it is best for humans to live under yokai, it is their natural state. they are too childish and lack proper thinking to even help themselves.

>>19919456
Don't talk to it. It'll make you retarded.

>>19919466
it is hard for humans to grasp the truth.
nearly impossible!

>>19919456
>yokai
kek'd
regardless your entire argument collapses on itself on the sheer fact that youkai have achieved nothing, they don't have functioning society, no commerce nor have they made any scientific advances.

>>19919806
They don't value those things as they have no need for them to continue and advance their existence's. The things you listed are just anthropocentric nonsense to them.

>>19919806
Truly the niggers of gensokyo

>>19919806
>no commerce
tanuki control your human commerce more than you will ever hope to realize
>nor have they made any scientific advances.
this is pitiful; you are judging yokai by pea-brained human standards. Magic itself dwarfs any single contribution humans could possibly have.
It's sad seeing humans try to act by themselves. It is like seeing a child trying to walk only to fall down.
Humans need to be lead by yokai, it is in their nature.

>>19919456
>have you been to the outside world?
Yes. And 90% of it is a way better place to live than the Human Village.

> Many long to get to Gensokyo to live in happiness under yokai rule,
Idiots that don't actually understand what Gensokyo is like.

>and how much many more have not heard of Gensokyo, yet cling to buddhas, kami, and yokai for salvation.
Nobody cling to Youkai for salvation. And religions do just fine in the Outside world.

>it is their natural state.
It's literally not. Youkai are a creation by the lunarians to keep Humanity down, they are completely unnatural.

>>19919448
Hello /vg/!

>>19919889
>tanuki control your human commerce more than you will ever hope to realize
The economic of Gensokyo is pitiful compared ot the outside world. Even a medium sized outside world company could buy every assets in the Human Village without even making a dent in their budget.

>Magic itself dwarfs any single contribution humans could possibly have. It's sad seeing humans try to act by themselves
Magic is completely inferior to science. Even two hundred years ago, it was already enough to drive Youkai to near extinction. In another two hundred, science will allow us to become immortal all powerful space gods.

Face it, imbecile. Your precious Youkai are nothing but weak willed failures. Desperately hiding in Gensokyo until Humanity discovers them and wipes them all out. The only way they can survive is to adopt superior human morality, and redeem themselves.

>>19919889
>tanuki control your human commerce more than you will ever hope to realize
The economy of Gensokyo is pitiful compared ot the outside world. Even a medium sized outside world company could buy every assets in the Human Village without even making a dent in their budget.

>Magic itself dwarfs any single contribution humans could possibly have. It's sad seeing humans try to act by themselves
Magic is completely inferior to science. Even two hundred years ago, it was already enough to drive Youkai to near extinction. In another two hundred, science will allow us to become immortal all powerful space gods.

Face it, your precious Youkai are nothing but weak willed failures. Desperately hiding in Gensokyo until Humanity discovers them and wipes them all out. The only way they can survive is to adopt superior human morality and redeem themselves.

>>19919859
That's a insult to africans.

>>19919851
Any society that only exists to continue its own existence without growth or change is by its very nature a failure.

>>19921708
>In another two hundred, science will allow us to become immortal all powerful space gods.
Imagine being this retarded.

>>19919859
That is insult to africans.

>>19919851
Any society that does nothing expect continue its own existence without change or progress is, by its very nature, a failure.

>>19921745
The only retards here are Youkai apologists.

>>19921770
I suppose you think ZUN also subscribes to your batshit fanfiction theory in which the outside world will become gods and destroy Gensokyo within two hundred years.

>>19921752
More anthropocentric nonsense. Human's focus on constant expansion and domination is the very characteristic of a parasite. Maybe that's because humans are so new to the scene, even other animals don't act this retarded.
Youkai have no need to spread like a disease for their own lust for power.

>>19921779
No idea. In Maribel's time, which is some unspecified point in the future, humanity is doing pretty well for itself. And there's no indication they hit some kind of "science cap". If they keep growing, they are eventually going to discover and annihilate Gensokyo.

>>19921818
You do realize that Youkai are literal parasites, right? It's true that Humanity is expansionstic and power hungry, but that's only because we desire to create a better society. Something we have succeeded in.

>Maybe that's because humans are so new to the scene, even other animals don't act this retarded.
Most animals are just as power hungry as people, they simply lack the tools and the intelligence to expand their territory too much.

>Youkai have no need to spread like a disease for their own lust for power.
That's because they lust for power in different far more cruel and horrible ways, and always for incredibly selfish reasons.

>>19921868
>but that's only because we desire to create a better society. Something we have succeeded in.

>>19921824
> If they keep growing, they are eventually going to discover and annihilate Gensokyo.
"Physics is coming to an end. Our world was already rapidly progressing into an age of explanations and philosophy."

The bottom that humans are predicted to grow arbitrarily powerful in ZUNverse is literally fanfiction. The only thing that might possibly cause a scientific revolution IRL is unboundedly increasing machine intelligence and the fact that Renko thinks they're near capping out indicates that canon ZUNverse doesn't have this as a thing. Stop announcing retarded speculative fanfiction shit like its established fact.

>>19921824
> If they keep growing, they are eventually going to discover and annihilate Gensokyo.
"Physics is coming to an end. Our world was already rapidly progressing into an age of explanations and philosophy."

The bottom that humans are predicted to grow arbitrarily powerful in ZUNverse is literally fanfiction. The only thing that might possibly cause a scientific revolution IRL is unboundedly increasing machine intelligence and the fact that Renko thinks they're near capping out indicates that canon ZUNverse doesn't have this as a thing. Stop announcing retarded speculative fanfiction shit like its established fact.

>>19921954
The notion that*

>>19921910
It's the truth. Compared to other societies, both in nature and the past. We might as well be living in a Utopia.

>The bottom that humans are predicted to grow arbitrarily powerful in ZUNverse is literally fanfiction.
Again, there is nothing to indicate that Human scientific progress is going to stop. Renko's comment isn't indicative of anything except 1: Her opinion. 2: That the world is changing into one of rationality and philosophy.

This idea that the world of Touhou is like a Civilisation game and every nation is about to finish the tech tree is the true fanfic idea. Humanity in the Touhou universe doesn't need another scientific revolution, like us they are still living in one.

>>19922032
>We might as well be living in a Utopia.
Even the most ignorant human villager of the Outside world would think you're blind.

>>19922061
Any Human Villager living in Gensokyo would agree with me, especially if they used to be a outsider.

>>19922032
>Renko's comment isn't indicative of anything except 1: Her opinion.
Renko is never depicted as anything other than knowledgeable about the state of physics in her world. Her opinion of it is worth roughly infinitely more than yours.

>every nation is about to finish the tech tree is the true fanfic idea.
The future as depicted in ZUNverse is like the present with cooler stuff and problems patched up. You have literally zero evidence that they will all become immortal space gods against an in-universe announcement that they won't, which you handwave away by claiming that Renko is wrong and dumb.

human "rights" terrorists will be brought under the yokai yoke
soon enough they will realize the foolishness of their past thoughts and begin to see the safety and freedom offered under yokai rule

>>19922101
>Renko is never depicted as anything other than knowledgeable about the state of physics in her world.
I don't deny that. But again, she's not saying physics, let alone Science as a whole, is hitting some kind of cap they will never break.

>The future as depicted in ZUNverse is like the present with cooler stuff and problems patched up.
...And? We don't even know how far in the future, it could be 2050 for all we know.

>You have literally zero evidence that they will all become immortal space gods against an in-universe announcement that they won't
The evidence is that technological growth still exists. Meanwhile, there is no in-universe announcement that they won't. Renko's point is that 1: Nobody smarter than Richard Hawkins has appeared yet. 2: Energy production hasn't yet reached the point where we can take the next step. 3: Because of these two reasons, Humanity is moving away from physics.

Here is what a in universe announcement that they won't would have actually looked like: 1: Renko would claim that nobody smarter than Richard Hawkins is EVER going to appear. 2: Energy production is NEVER going to reach the point where we can take the next step. 3: Because of these two reasons, Humanity is moving away from Physics FOREVER!!!!!!.

>>19922175
The only thing Youkai can do to the outside world is stealing the occasional hobo. North Korea is a bigger threat to Humanity.

>>19922101
>Renko is never depicted as anything other than knowledgeable about the state of physics in her world.
I don't deny that. But again, she's not saying physics, let alone Science as a whole, is hitting some kind of cap they will never break.

>The future as depicted in ZUNverse is like the present with cooler stuff and problems patched up.
...And? We don't even know how far in the future, it could be 2050 for all we know.

>You have literally zero evidence that they will all become immortal space gods against an in-universe announcement that they won't
The evidence is that technological growth still exists. Meanwhile, there is no in-universe announcement that they won't. Renko's point is that 1: Nobody smarter than Richard Hawkins has appeared yet. 2: Energy production hasn't yet reached the point where we can take the next step. 3: Because of these two reasons, Humanity is moving away from physics.

Here is what a in universe announcement that they won't would have actually looked like: 1: Renko would claim that nobody smarter than Richard Hawkins is NEVER going to appear. 2: Energy production is NEVER going to reach the point where we can take the next step. 3: Because of these two reasons, Humanity is moving away from Physics FOREVER!!!!!!.

>>19922197
>Energy production hasn't yet reached the point where we can take the next step.
She said that all the energy in the entire universe wouldn't be enough and you'd need more than could exist in the universe to advance further. They're not waiting for the next generator to come along.

>But again, she's not saying physics, let alone Science as a whole, is hitting some kind of cap they will never break.
She doubts mankind will even reach Mars.

Maybe science is uncapped even though physics is but there's literally zero fucking reason to assume that ZUN wrote the future that way.

>>19922197
>The evidence is that technological growth still exists
>tfw non sequitur

>>19922268
>She said that all the energy in the entire universe wouldn't be enough and you'd need more than could exist in the universe to advance further.
I don't think they've hit the "all the energy in the universe point" yet.

>She doubts mankind will even reach Mars.
She says Mankind hasn't even gone to Mars. Big difference.

>Maybe science is uncapped even though physics is but there's literally zero fucking reason to assume that ZUN wrote the future that way.
I would say the reason to assume that is because that's just how it works. Like, there are sciences in real life that we have pretty much "finished". Yet they neither meant the end of scientific development, or even the end of the scientific revolution.

Like, if you're going to assume ZUN wrote his story in a way that downright contradicts reality. Then, what was his reason? What point, if any, do you think he was trying to make? Or is he just ignorant and doesn't understand science?

>>19922287
Scientific progress is still happening. Thus, it's only a matter of time until Humanity reaches the point where it will discover and obliterate Gensokyo. I don't understand what's so weird about that idea.

You just have to be a cute girl who's buddies with the miko and the Child of Miare and Reimu and all her youkai friends will concoct an elaborate and dangerous scheme that puts half of Gensokyo at risk to give you a loophole for when you inevitably go youkai.

Nepotism is such an ugly word. It's just how the world works, Fortune Teller, all about who you know, you know?

>>19922403
>You just have to be a cute girl
but I'm an ugly man!

>>19922403
Even then, your life will still be inferior to what you could have had in the outside world if you put in the same amount of effort.

>>19922411
I think marrying Reimu would have the same effect as being a cute girl.

>>19922382
>I don't think they've hit the "all the energy in the universe point" yet.
"Physics is moving on into the next phase because it has already reached the smallest world."

>She says Mankind hasn't even gone to Mars. Big difference.
"I don't think it's practically possible to observe the dissipation of a black hole. I don't even think that mankind will make it to Mars."

>Or is he just ignorant and doesn't understand science?
His conception of science is incompatible with yours. If you want to say that means he's ignorant, or stupid, or deluded, you go ahead and do that. Kick his shit in and call him a retard. But the ZUNverse is his creation, and plays by his rules.

>>19922489
>"Physics is moving on into the next phase because it has already reached the smallest world."
I'm aware, but she also says this:
>"The amounts of energy needed to observe it are enormous."
And "Enormous" is not the same thing as "all of it". Leading me to believe they haven't yet hit that final cap. Even if the current cap is big enough to cause a decline on observable physics.

>"I don't think it's practically possible to observe the dissipation of a black hole. I don't even think that mankind will make it to Mars."
My translation says:
>"Plus, I don't think they could observe the black hole evaporation that Hawking predicted. And more, mankind hasn't even gone to Mars."
So... who knows?

>His conception of science is incompatible with yours.
There is no evidence in his stories and his interviews that he thinks "Observable physics hit a cap=All science is over".

>If you want to say that means he's ignorant, or stupid, or deluded, you go ahead and do that.
I don't actually think he's ignorant, I'm just asking if that's what you think or if you think he's trying to make some kind of point by having science work that way in the Touhou universe.

>>19922489
>"Physics is moving on into the next phase because it has already reached the smallest world."
I'm aware, but she also says this:
>"The amounts of energy needed to observe it are enormous."
And "Enormous" is not the same thing as "all of it". Leading me to believe they haven't yet hit that final cap. Even if the current cap is still big enough to cause interest in observable physics to decline.

>"I don't think it's practically possible to observe the dissipation of a black hole. I don't even think that mankind will make it to Mars."
My translation says:
>"Plus, I don't think they could observe the black hole evaporation that Hawking predicted. And more, mankind hasn't even gone to Mars."
So... who knows?

>His conception of science is incompatible with yours.
There is no evidence in his stories and his interviews that he thinks "Observable physics hit a cap=All science is over".

>If you want to say that means he's ignorant, or stupid, or deluded, you go ahead and do that.
I don't actually think he's ignorant, I'm just asking if that's what you think or if you think he's trying to make some kind of point by having science work that way in the Touhou universe.

>>19922568
>And "Enormous" is not the same thing as "all of it".
"And then when we finally get to the point where we find an object that cannot be separated even if we used all of energy in the universe, we can say this object is the smallest substance in the world. Physics is moving on into the next phase because it has already reached the smallest world."

This strongly suggests that physics in Sealing Club would has "already" reached the "smallest" world where you can't go any further even if you used all the energy in the universe. She says this after declaring evaporating black holes unobservable.

>So... who knows?
If it's the Wikia, there is a loose consensus that Touhouwiki translations are more updated. Touhouwiki, kafkafuura (a 3P translator), and myself are all in agreement in this point. You could ask DJT or some other authority but I'm confident that the Wikia translation is in error.

>All science is over.
It does make it less likely that they'll all be immortal space gods.

>I'm just asking if that's what you think.
I think ZUN's depiction of the future is not inherently absurd. Therefore, I don't have to assume that he's either ignorant or writing something deliberately absurd for a specific reason.

You, however, think that it is in fact completely absurd, so you ARE forced into one of these conclusions, and I'm not going to guess how it works out for you.

>>19918453
Yukari had 11 at some point.

>>19922746
>This strongly suggests that physics in Sealing Club would has "already" reached the "smallest" world where you can't go any further even if you used all the energy in the universe.
Who knows? I guess it doesn't really matter either way.

>You could ask DJT or some other authority but I'm confident that the Wikia translation is in error.
It was touhou.wikia, and i'm somewhat inclined to believe you. But at the same time, i'm still not going to accept that as proof of anything. Even Renko makes it clear she only THINKS that's the case, and there's much more to space travel than just physics.

>It does make it less likely that they'll all be immortal space gods.
Not really. It might make space travel somewhat difficult and slow, but even that will be solved eventually. And it sure as hell isn't going to prevent the outside world from discovering and obliterating Gensokyo in the future.

>You, however, think that it is in fact completely absurd, so you ARE forced into one of these conclusions
I don't think it's absurd because there is no evidence for your claims. Even if we assume that Renko is 100% right and Humanity will never be able to reach Mars, that's still no evidence that scientific progress is just going to stop one day.

Like, your conclusion seems to be that this is how ZUN seems to think science works in the real world, and that he's 100% right about that. Am I right about that?

>>19922746
>This strongly suggests that physics in Sealing Club would has "already" reached the "smallest" world where you can't go any further even if you used all the energy in the universe.
Who knows? I guess it doesn't really matter either way.

>You could ask DJT or some other authority but I'm confident that the Wikia translation is in error.
It was touhou.wikia, and i'm somewhat inclined to believe you. But at the same time, i'm still not going to accept that as proof of anything. Even Renko makes it clear she only THINKS that's the case, and there's much more to space travel than just physics.

>It does make it less likely that they'll all be immortal space gods.
Not really. It might make space travel somewhat difficult and slow, but even that will be solved eventually. And it sure as hell isn't going to prevent the outside world from discovering and obliterating Gensokyo in the future.

>You, however, think that it is in fact completely absurd, so you ARE forced into one of these conclusions
I don't think it's absurd because there is no evidence for your claims. Even if we assume that Renko is 100% right and Humanity will never be able to reach Mars, that's still no evidence that scientific progress is just going to stop one day and Humanity won't eventually hit the singularity running and never stop.

Like, your conclusion seems to be that this is how ZUN seems to think science works in the real world and that he's 100% right. Is that correct?

reminder that yuuka believes that genocide is just a game and unlike cool reimu and the spellcard system she never did anything that ever contributed to less killings

>>19921661
>And 90% of it is a way better place to live than the Human Village.

>>19925287
It's the truth. With the exception of a few war torn countries and North Korea, everything compares favorably to Gensokyo.

>>19925310
>everything compares favorably to Gensokyo

>>19925320
There is literally nothing good about living in Gensokyo. Nothing that can't also be gotten in the outside world far easier.

>>19925320
If you're a depressed friendless virigin autist in the real world, you would still be that way in the fictional Gensokyo. Don't kid yourself.

>>19925449
Would you rather live as a poor person on a third world country or as a villager in Gensokyo?

>>19925458
>with the exception of a few war torn countries
I think that implied third world. Though, in both, you'd still be in daily danger anyway.

>>19925499
>3 billion people
>Nearly 1/2 of the world's population — more than 3 billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day. More than 1.3 billion live in extreme poverty — less than $1.25 a day. 1 billion children worldwide are living in poverty. According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty.
Reality seems to be far different than your claim of 90% of the world being better than Gensokyo.

>>19925510
I think you're forgetting that outsiders are not residents for Gensokyo, they either get sent out by the shrine maiden or eaten. There is no outsider economy. You don't live there. And if you stayed in the human village the entire time then you'd basically just be in medieval Japan. Is that better than poverty? I guess. A little.

>>19925458
poor third world person. The opportunities to improve yourself and advance is greater there than in Gensokyo, where if you're not innately gifted or willing to dedicate your entire life to magic you really have to options.

>>19925458
>>19925510
Most Humans in Gensokyo live in what would be considered poverty nowadays. Or do you seriously think your average Human Villager earns more than 1,25$ in Yen every day?

>>19925545
>Is that better than poverty? I guess. A little.
What we call "poverty" nowadays would have been called "normal" in medieval Japan.

>>19922891
>Even if we assume that Renko is 100% right and Humanity will never be able to reach Mars, that's still no evidence that scientific progress is just going to stop one day and Humanity won't eventually hit the singularity running and never stop.
If humanity ever achieved the singularity, going to Mars would be trivial. The fact that an uncontradicted in-universe authority believes that humanity will never reach Mars means that the worldview of ZUNverse does not admit the singularity.

>Like, your conclusion seems to be that this is how ZUN seems to think science works in the real world and that he's 100% right. Is that correct?
I believe that ZUN does not believe in the singularity, and that the development of modernity will reach a point where most people are comfortable in their daily life and then level off, rather than continuing to increase exponentially in all regards into Kardashev scale zones or whatever science fiction shit have you.

I don't believe that ZUN is 100% correct about the real world because I think he is discounting the possibility of a machine learning revolution. I also don't care; ZUN's universe can only be evaluated in the light of ZUN's assumptions.

>>19925571
Yes. You'll be poor either way, but at least in a third world country (One that isn't on fire, obviously) you might have actually a chance of improving your situation.

>>19925571
no* options

>>19925458
Gensokyo. I want to either live a simple frugal life at a temple or learn magic.

>>19925545
This is of course on the hypothetical case that outsiders from the third world get brought up to Gensokyo and let to live in the village, half of the world's population lifestyle would be vastly improved.
>they either get sent out by the shrine maiden or eaten
Are you forgetting that outsiders can stay?
>>19925571
There are richmen in Gensokyo. And the opportunities poor people can have to advance are not taken due to most of them ending up stuck in poverty or maybe dying from other causes, maybe from violence and crime or from diseases or from hunger.
>>19925591
Yeah, and a middle class american kid with an Ipad is far richer than a middle age medieval king. But for millions or billions of people scattered acrosss the globe, they'd have a better lifestyle in the Human Village where they don't have to worry for diseases or food shortages or natural disasters or wars or violence. Personally, I wouldn't do so as I don't find myself in a pitiful situation but I can see how being mantained alive and wellfed by youkai and having to live a primitive (which isn't that primitive due to some magical and modern advancements gensokyo has) but stable life is a better choice for most people that do have to face suffering for most of their lives. Or at least that's what I think, since I can't talk for them.

>>19925594
>If humanity ever achieved the singularity, going to Mars would be trivial.
Not necessarily. The idea of the singularity is that we invent a piece of technology, usually a artificial intelligence, smart enough to keep upgrading itself. Which would cause a scientific revolution beyond any we've seen yet. It has nothing to do with if we can or can't visit Mars, which according to Renko is simply flatout impossible because of energy cost.

>I believe that ZUN does not believe in the singularity, and that the development of modernity will reach a point where most people are comfortable in their daily life and then level off, rather than continuing to increase exponentially in all regards into Kardashev scale zones or whatever science fiction shit have you.
And your evidence for all of this is... Renko claiming observable physics is over. Did Renko say we'll never hit the singularity? No. Did any character even mention the singularity? No. Did ZUN ever talk in his interview about the singularity? No. Is there anything to indicate that artificial intelligence is impossible in Touhou? No, the opposite is true actually. Is there any, and I do mean ANY, evidence that scientific developments as a whole is slowing down in the Touhou universe? No.

Are you full of shit? Yes.

>I don't believe that ZUN is 100% correct about the real world because I think he is discounting the possibility of a machine learning revolution.
I don't know why you believe anything about ZUN when he's given you no reason to think so.

>I also don't care; ZUN's universe can only be evaluated in the light of ZUN's assumptions.
Assumptions that you made up and have no evidence for.

>>19922891
ZUN being "right" or "wrong" has no bearing on anything because ultimately as his creation Touhou plays by his rules.

>>19925658
>have you forgotten that outsiders can stay?
Have you read the next sentence? I clearly said outsiders can stay in the human village.

love to create useless threads intended to bait the crossboarder to make sure we have stupid shit getting bumped on /jp/ 24/7!

>>19925670
>It has nothing to do with if we can or can't visit Mars, which according to Renko is simply flatout impossible because of energy cost.
No. Renko only claims that the observation of black hole evaporation is impossible due to energy cost. She does not state that it is impossible to visit Mars due to energy constraints; she merely says that she believes visiting Mars is just something humans won't advance into doing (the energy cost of sending objects to Mars is well short of infinite).

>Did Renko say we'll never hit the singularity? No. Did any character even mention the singularity? No. Did ZUN ever talk in his interview about the singularity? No. Is there anything to indicate that artificial intelligence is impossible in Touhou? No, the opposite is true actually. Is there any, and I do mean ANY, evidence that scientific developments as a whole is slowing down in the Touhou universe? No.
If scientific development accelerated at the base where we all became "immortal all powerful space gods," then we could go to Mars. If we hit the singularity, we could go to Mars. If one assumes that humans will never make it to Mars, this precludes both the singularity and immortal all powerful space godhood. X => Y means ~Y => ~X.

>I don't know why you believe anything about ZUN when he's given you no reason to think so.
Whatever he believes it's definitely not your retarded fanfiction shit.

>>19925646
You can do both in the outside world.

>>19925658
>There are richmen in Gensokyo.
Yes, a few. With nothing to indicate there is any opportunity for more people to become one.

>they'd have a better lifestyle in the Human Village where they don't have to worry for diseases or food shortages or natural disasters or wars or violence.
I don't know why you think Gensokyo is some kind of perfect communist utopia. Most people in Gensokyo live in poverty, and are more liable to die from diseases and starvation than people in third world countries.

Violence also still happens in Gensokyo, and i'm not just talking about Youkai. Not every, or even most, third world countries are war torn. Which pretty much just leaves natural disasters as the one thing Gensokyo has as a improvement, not something anybody would call a dealbreaker.

> but I can see how being mantained alive and wellfed by youkai and having to live a primitive (which isn't that primitive due to some magical and modern advancements gensokyo has) but stable life is a better choice for most people that do have to face suffering for most of their lives.
The Youkai haven't done shit. People still have to work for, or grow, their food and they still have to maintain their own wellbeing. And it's not stable, anon. There is nothing stable about living in a land filled with malicious supernatural creatures that cause incidents for fun.

Like, your basic argument seems to be that Gensokyo is a better place to live than Somalia and Syria. Which, congratulations, is true. But you can say the same thing about the rest of the world, nearly all of which is a better place to live than Gensokyo.

>>19925745
Magic doesn't actually exist in our world dude. Touhou is fictional.

>>19925745
>Most people in Gensokyo live in poverty, and are more liable to die from diseases and starvation than people in third world countries.
There are zero confirmed deaths from disease and starvation in the human village.

>>19925745
>Most people in Gensokyo live in poverty, and are more liable to die from diseases and starvation than people in third world countries.
They do?
>Violence also still happens in Gensokyo
It does?
>Not every, or even most, third world countries are war torn.
You don't have to be war torn to live misserable, just look at India or Hong Kong or Central America or Brasil or China.

>>19925679
Yes. And in his universe, there is nothing to imply scientific development isn't endless.

>>19925714
>she merely says that she believes visiting Mars is just something humans won't advance into doing (the energy cost of sending objects to Mars is well short of infinite).
I would call "well short of infinite" imposible.

>If scientific development accelerated at the base where we all became "immortal all powerful space gods," then we could go to Mars. If we hit the singularity, we could go to Mars. If one assumes that humans will never make it to Mars, this precludes both the singularity and immortal all powerful space godhood.
That's nonsense. Even if we hit the singularity and become immortal all powerful space gods. Then we still aren't going to be able to travel to Mars if the energy requirement for doing so is "Well short of infinite". Like, you do realize what infinite means right? It's not just a really big number. We would be able to build our own stars before we could produce "well short of infinite" energy. '

>Whatever he believes it's definitely not your retarded fanfiction shit.
No. ZUN absolutely believes that Gensokyo is a bad place, otherwise he wouldn't go out of the way to portray Gensokyo as a bad place. Meanwhile, you haven't shown any hard evidence yet for your ludicrous fanfic tier ideas.

>>19925760
No shit. But magic does exist in the Touhou universe, and you can learn it in the outside world.

>>19925775
There are also zero confirmed deaths from people breaking their neck by falling off a ladder, but I can guarantee you that's still something that happens.

>>19925805
>They do?
Yes. Like I said, Gensokyo is not a communist utopia.

>It does?
Yes. Not only are Youkai very violent. But people would still fight and kill each other for the same reasons they do in this world.

> just look at India
A well developed democracy famous for its spirituality? So much worse than living in Gensokyo.

>Hong Kong
Dear god, it's like living in China but slightly better. THE HORROR!

>Central America
Like Costa Rica, one of the happiest countries in the world. Clearly, they must be completely miserable.

>Brazil.
Because when I think misery. I think a country that surpassed it's former colonial master.

>China.
Okay, fair enough. That one actually is terrible. I mean, second richest country in the world and still growing, quickly expanding middle class, thousand year old cultural heritage, probably going to rule the world in a few decades. Such a awful place.

I should make it clear that i'm not saying these countries are wonderful places to live. But to use them as examples of countries worse than Gensokyo is laughable.

>>19925839
>I would call "well short of infinite" imposible.
It's an extremely finite number. We can calculate it. We got Spirit and Opportunity to Mars without problem; multiply the energy used there by however much a manned mission weighs to get the energy required to send a manned mission to Mars. In terms of raw energy required to get a man onto Mars, we could do it right now with off-the-shelf equipment as long as we don't actually care about getting that man back.

Renko only takes about the energy barrier as a barrier to observing black hole evaporation. In no way, shape, or form is it suggested that there is an insurmountable energy barrier to getting things to Mars. In fact, people in Renkoverse have tried. They just keep fucking up.

>We would be able to build our own stars before we could produce "well short of infinite" energy. '
It would take over a billion times more energy to build a star than to send a ship to Mars.

>ZUN absolutely believes that Gensokyo is a bad place
The words ZUN uses himself to describe Gensokyo are largely positive. He actively recommends that people access romance in their everyday lives by (pretending to) live in a fantasy world (CiLR Afterword) and speaks positively of those who can see Gensokyo in their hallucinations and have one foot inside it (Creators Foreword I).

>>19925944
>There are also zero confirmed deaths from people breaking their neck by falling off a ladder, but I can guarantee you that's still something that happens.
Famine in the real world is either caused by disaster (which Gensokyo is protected against) or national agricultural mismanagement (which Gensokyo doesn't have). Gensokyo has access to a three-tier medicine system theoretically capable of curing any disease (human doctor -> supernatural medicines -> Eientei visit).

You may freely claim that the number of people who die of disease and starvation is not zero, but when you claim that more people die in a village with these features bolted on than in IRL third-world countries where people practice open defecation (1 billiion people) and drink feces-contaminated water (2 billion people) you should provide evidence thereof.

>>19925944
>A well developed democracy famous for its spirituality?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27635363

Truly a fucking paradise, that India.

>>19925944
>There are also zero confirmed deaths from people breaking their neck by falling off a ladder, but I can guarantee you that's still something that happens.
So headcanon, ok.
>Gensokyo is not a communist utopia
This is not convincing.
>But people would still fight and kill each other for the same reasons they do in this world.
They do? When was the last time humans have had some sort of conflict that wasn't youkai?
India
>According to this revised methodology, the world had 872.3 million people below the new poverty line, of which 179.6 million people lived in India. In other words, India with 17.5% of total world's population, had 20.6% share of world's poorest in 2011
>Hong Kong
Cage Homes
>Costa Rica
Oh yeah, ignore that Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala or Belize exist.
>Brazil
>Brazil broke its own record for homicides last year, according to new figures which showed that 63,880 people were killed in 2017 – a 3% increase from the previous year.
At this point I keep replying to you just to amuse myself, it's funny how you are so unaware of the world outside of your bubble yet you keep sympathising with fictional "opressed" people.

>>19919384

It's almost like you think upper/middle class in the first world represents "the outside world" as a whole

This guy is seriously amuzing. There is a literal Dengue fever epidemic in Thailand and yet he claims all that shit.

>>19925839
>No. ZUN absolutely believes that Gensokyo is a bad place
He has never once said this. Stop projecting your own personal interpretation of the setting on its author.

>>19925745
what does that have to do with anything? the question was would i rather live in some shithole poverty country in the world we live in or Gensokyo where magic is commonplace. I would rather live a simple life learning magic in Gensokyo than live in someplace like fucking africa or half of asia. don't ever reply to me again.

>>19925947
>It's an extremely finite number.
Then, I guess anon's (not sure if that's you) claim Renko says going to Mars would require "near infinite energy" was just nonsense.

Although frankly, if we can do it today then that makes Renko's entire claim somewhat suspect.

>The words ZUN uses himself to describe Gensokyo are largely positive
He also goes out of its way to portray going to Gensokyo as a death sentence. The closest thing it has to a leader as a murderous sociopath. And the human population as oppressed, powerless, and relying entirely on hope to get through the day.

>actively recommends that people access romance in their everyday lives by (pretending to) live in a fantasy world
No, he says that people can have romance in their live by reading fantasy novels.

>and speaks positively of those who can see Gensokyo in their hallucinations and have one foot inside it
Source?

>>19925962
Famines are caused by more than natural disasters or agricultural mismanagement. A lot of incidents almost certainly caused minor famines.

Starvation meanwhile is also caused by more than just famines. Gensokyo has limited food owing to its isolation and primitive agricultural methods, and no welfare system whatsoever. If you can't afford to buy food, you'll starve.

As for diseases, remember that Eirin SELLS medicine. If you can't afford to pay her, then you can still look forward to dying from a disease the outside world cured decades ago.

>but when you claim that more people die in a village with these features bolted on than in IRL third-world countries where people practice open defecation and drink feces-contaminated water
Those are sanitation issues. Which Is less of a problem in the Human Village, i'm sure. Even if I somewhat doubt the sanitation in the Human Village is fantastic.

>>19925984
It has its downsides. But it's still a lot better than living in Gensokyo.

>>19926545
It's almost like you think 80% of the Human Village wouldn't be part of the lower class.

There are 16 Reimu threads on /jp/ right now.

Dudes.
Dudes.
Like, fuck the calm down.
Wait.
Calm the fuck down, I mean.

>>19926020
>So headcanon, ok.
No, it's a fact.

>This is not convincing.
Gensokyo is described as having "pre modern living standards", not "pre modern living standards but it's also a communist utopia".

>When was the last time humans have had some sort of conflict that wasn't youkai?
Maybe somebody caught his wife cheating and beat her half to death. Do you think such things just don't happen in Gensokyo?

>India.
What India calls "poverty" is known as "normal" in pre modern societies like Gensokyo.

>Cage Homes
That sucks. But If you're deluded if you think a Gensokyo peasant has more living space.

>Oh yeah, ignore that Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala or Belize exist.
All of which are either medium to high on the Human development index. The Human Village would be low, by the way.

>Brazil broke its own record for homicides last year, according to new figures which showed that 63,880 people were killed in 2017 – a 3% increase from the previous year.
I'm sure Gensokyo breaks its record of outsiders murdered almost every year.

>>19926824
ZUN goes out of his way to portray Gensokyo as a shit place. if he didn't want it to be shit, he wouldn't have made it shit.

>>19926869
You can live as a monk or learn magic (at least in the Touhou universe) in a poorly developed third world country just as easily as you could in the Human Village. Which by modern standards is also pretty much a poorly developed third world country.

>>19926020
>So headcanon, ok.
Unless you have any proof that Gensokyo has a large social welfare program, it's a fact.

>This is not convincing.
Gensokyo is described as having "pre modern living standards", not "pre modern living standards but it's also a communist utopia".

>When was the last time humans have had some sort of conflict that wasn't youkai?
Maybe somebody caught his wife cheating and beat her half to death, or perhaps two drunk men got into a fist fight. Do you think those kinds of things just don't happen in Gensokyo?

>India.
What India calls "poverty" is known as "normal" in pre modern societies like Gensokyo.

>Cage Homes
That sucks. But you're deluded if you think a Gensokyo peasant has all that much more living space.

>Oh yeah, ignore that Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala or Belize exist.
All of which are either medium to high on the Human development index. The Human Village would be low, by the way.

>Brazil broke its own record for homicides last year, according to new figures which showed that 63,880 people were killed in 2017 – a 3% increase from the previous year.
I'm sure Gensokyo breaks its record of outsiders murdered almost every year.

>>19926824
ZUN goes out of his way to portray Gensokyo as a shit place. if he didn't want it to be shit, he wouldn't have made it shit.

>>19926869
You can live as a monk or learn magic (at least in the Touhou universe) in a poorly developed third world country just as easily as you could in the Human Village. Which by modern standards pretty much is a poorly developed third world country.

>>19927950
Post sources.
Also do you not know how to sage?

>>19927934

>>19927958
>https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Basic_Knowledge_of_Fantastic_Words_2015
>It seems to have maintained late Edo period living standards

>Also do you not know how to sage?
Why should I?

>>19927883
i counted 6
how the fuck did you get to 16?
/jp/ feels lively

>>19927970
And? How does that relate to your post?
You should sage because this is a shit thread.

>>19927984
wahhh i can't provide any arguments so it's a kusou thread
wahhh /jp/ is dead there are no discussions
fucking pick one

>>19927984
>And? How does that relate to your post?
Because it makes it clear that Gensokyo has pre modern living standards. Which are not good.

>>19928010
Why are pre modern living standards not good? Explain.
>>19928006
Yup. Kuso thread.

>>19928017
>Why are pre modern living standards not good?
Because poverty, starvation, diseases, violence, intolerance, and suffering were the norm in those times.

>>19928043
So? Post sources that show Gensokyo is plagued with
>poverty, starvation, diseases, violence, intolerance, and suffering

>>19928056
I don't need to. Late Edo period living standards means late Edo period living standards.Not late Edo period living standards but with all of the bad stuff removed.

>>19928077
So just your own conclusions and no solid evidence. OK.
Just use a disclaimer next time you post your theories.

>>19918453
>Yukari have come close.
>>19922753
>11

>>19927950
Yeah this stopped being funny. congratulations, you won.

>>19927828
>Then, I guess anon's (not sure if that's you) claim Renko says going to Mars would require "near infinite energy" was just nonsense.
I have been the only one discussing Renko and Mars in this thread. I never said that Renko said that going to Mars would require "near infinite energy." I did not use the phrase "near infinite energy" even once.

>He also goes out of its way to portray going to Gensokyo as a death sentence.
>And the human population as oppressed, powerless, and relying entirely on hope to get through the day.
You speak of "portrayals" but ZUN has not in fact portrayed any of this. You have inferred it.

>No, he says that people can have romance in their live by reading fantasy novels.
Reading fantasy novels is a method of living in a fantasy world. "The easiest way to feel romance in your everyday life is to live in a fantasy world."
>Source?
SCoOW Foreword.

>>19927873
>A lot of incidents almost certainly caused minor famines.
There is no evidence that incidents have caused any famine deaths.

>If you can't afford to buy food, you'll starve.
This is true in the outside world as well. "One man has died in each of the last three years in this city in western Japan, apparently of starvation, after his welfare application was refused or his benefits cut off. Unable to buy food, all three men wasted away for months inside their homes, where their bodies were eventually found."

>As for diseases, remember that Eirin SELLS medicine. If you can't afford to pay her, then you can still look forward to dying from a disease the outside world cured decades ago.
This is also how it works in the outside world. You get cancer, you can't afford to treat it, you die. Basic Knowledge of Fantastic Words tells us that Eientei's medicine is both cheap and can be acquired in the village on a tab.

>>19928043
>Because poverty, starvation, diseases, violence, intolerance, and suffering were the norm in those times.
Japan at the turn of the Meiji Restoration was not generally wracked by poverty and starvation. Gensokyo is explicitly depicted as having better medicine. Crime was not appreciably higher during the Edo Period than it was in the present. Intolerance is not a "standard of living."

>>19928231
For the record, to be "well short of X" means "very far from X." It seems that you've managed to come under the impression that "well short of X" actually means "near X."

To be well short of something is to not be remotely close to it.

>>19928188

>>19928142
>>19928620
>19
assblasted into orbit grandma

>>19928728
Mods deleted your thread, Reimu.

>>19929107
reimu is always kind and just

>>19928129
I would say "They live in late edo period living standards" is pretty strong evidence. Like, if you have any evidence that's not the case I would love to see it.

>>19928188
Um, okay. Thanks?

>>19928231
>You speak of "portrayals" but ZUN has not in fact portrayed any of this.
He has made it consistently clear that most outsiders that end up in Gensokyo are murdered. That the Human population isn't even allowed a leader, and are thus oppressed. That they are powerless, both literally and abstractly. And rely on hope to function as a society, that was literally the plot of HM.

>"The easiest way to feel romance in your everyday life is to live in a fantasy world."
1: Source? That's not how I remember the quote. 2: I think you might be taking that WAY too literally.

>SCoOW Foreword.
I read that. And I have no idea how you interpret that as ZUN describing Gensokyo as a place, not a setting, in a positive manner.

>There is no evidence that incidents have caused any famine deaths.
Do you seriously think what Tenshi or Yuyuko did didn't affect the harvest.

>This is true in the outside world as well.
Obviously. But it was a lot bigger problem in pre-modern societies, which does include Gensokyo.

>This is also how it works in the outside world.
Again, way bigger problem in pre-modern societies. Even in poor third world countries medicine is becoming more easily available.

>Basic Knowledge of Fantastic Words tells us that Eientei's medicine is both cheap and can be acquired in the village on a tab.
I can't find anything there about it being available on a tab. And I still doubt most poor people in the Human Village would be able to afford it.

>Japan at the turn of the Meiji Restoration was not generally wracked by poverty and starvation.
Again, what people nowadays consider poverty people back then considered the norm. When it came to peasants, you know the people that made up most of the population, the concept pretty much didn't exist. Modernism, even in third world countries, has been nothing but beneficial.

>>19928321
Yes, that was my bad. Nonetheless, it still isn't proof that physics hitting a cap is going to mean the end of all, or even most, scientific development. Or that this is what ZUN believes and wants to include in his story.

>>19928231
>Intolerance is not a "standard of living."
Say that to Gay people living in Sudan, or Woman living under Sharia law.

>Crime was not appreciably higher during the Edo Period.
It was still a part of life nonetheless. Far more than it is in most of the world today.

Also, rereading my post, I kind of regret using the term "Third world country" because it's: 1: Not really applicable to a post cold war world. 2: Broad enough to be essentially useless. Poorly developed countries is more to the point.

>>19930624
Not always.

stop bumping this thread

>>19928188
well yeah you can only see someone defend real-life third world living conditions of africa, middle/south america, and asia in the face of murder, poverty, and death statistice, insisting a fictional universe with no famine, war, or plague is worse for so long before it stops being funny. china and india alone have 2 billion people living in shit conditions.

>>19921910
>reimucameheretolaughatyou.png
>reimu

>>19934728

>>19932519
Why?

>>19932519
The living conditions in Africa, middle/south america, and asia are about as consistent as Touhou lore. And pretending countries like China or India, which I won't deny have a lot of people living in poverty, are terrible is idiotic. But not quite as idiotic as pretending Gensokyo has no famine, poverty, violence, or disease related deaths despite the fact it's EXPLICITLY described as having Late Edo living standards.

So, and feel free to be offended at this, I do still find this VERY funny. And i'm just waiting for somebody to take the next logical step and claim that Gensokyo is better than rich first world countries.

>>19944162
The amish live like a rural early 18th century, therefore their communities are plagued with famines, indian raids, witch huntings, crime and such.

>>19932519
Let him have his Grimsokyo.
He's too much immersed in his headcanon.

>>19930905
>He has made it consistently clear that most outsiders that end up in Gensokyo are murdered.
Only source for this is PMiSS, which you freely ignore parts of, since it also says that youkai almost never eat people.
>And rely on hope to function as a society, that was literally the plot of HM.
The absence of hope is despair. That a society ceases to function well when artificially plunged into despair is not a scathing critique of it.

>1: Source? That's not how I remember the quote.
"The easiest way to feel romance in your everyday life is to live in a fantasy world." [https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/Afterword]. And of course you won't ~literally~ live in a fantasy world. Instead, you can imagine that you are living in a fantasy world.

>Do you seriously think what Tenshi or Yuyuko did didn't affect the harvest.
Even if it did, nobody died. ZUN makes it clear in his Gensou 3 answers that incidents are not serious events. They are part of a game that can be played without leaving a bitter aftertaste. Incidentally, a direct quote from ZUN: "Those who live there all live in prosperity and peace." (It's from EoSD days, so the setting may have been changed since then, but it's clear that the philosophical foundation of Gensokyo circa EoSD was not to create a miserable place.)

>I can't find anything there about it being available on a tab.
"Payment is collected for used medicine and the depot is restocked at the start of each season, on a regular basis" indicates that the system is use first pay later.
>And I still doubt most poor people in the Human Village would be able to afford it.
He literally went out of his way to say that medicine is cheap. If your takeaway from an author writing "X is cheap" is "I guess a ton of people in society can't afford X" you are very obviously not looking at the statement with an impartial eye.

>Again, what people nowadays consider poverty people back then considered the norm.
Your car today may be worth more than a feudal lord in the dark ages, but feudal lords in the dark ages did not live in "poverty." The definition of absolute poverty, per UNESCO, "measures poverty in relation to the amount of money necessary to meet basic needs such as food, clothing, and shelter."

>Nonetheless, it still isn't proof that physics hitting a cap is going to mean the end of all, or even most, scientific development. Or that this is what ZUN believes and wants to include in his story.
Do you still, right now, believe that in the near future of Hifuuverse, that the humans of the outside world will become "immortal all powerful space gods"? Because YOU are the one who asserted that this is what ZUN believes and wanted to include in his story.

>>19930905
Missed one point.

>I read that. And I have no idea how you interpret that as ZUN describing Gensokyo as a place, not a setting, in a positive manner.
In the SCoOW foreword, Gensokyo the place is being used as a metaphor for Touhou the setting. It is written metaphorically, as if Gensokyo exists: "It may be that magazines still have some time before they disappear completely, but they will eventually become a thing of Gensokyo." "If you, looking at these people who might not be able to return to the real world, start to move yourself, you might not be able to return as well."

The phrasing "who can see Gensokyo in their hallucinations and those who have one foot inside it" describes exactly the standpoint of at least one in-universe character. The whole thing is written in a favorable tone.

>>19932327
Always.