/jp/ - Otaku Culture

XD

because otherwise you wouldn't have the Grim Darkness.
Seriously, I like Nasu's works but sometimes the plot device is so strong it hurts.

because HF sucks

>>1917002
Saber wasn't really bound to Sakura like what happened with Caster in UBW, she was corrupted and enslaved by the darkness, hence her alignment changed from Good to Evil, and I don't think Rule Breaker can cancel that corruption since it's made to work against magics and the shadow is more like a curse.

>>1917024
What about Sakura then?

>>1917023

Truth. HF is full of plotholes. In Fate Illya didnt recognize Archer even after absorbing him. In HF, she knows who he is.

>>1917024
See: Sakura

Once you go black, you cannot come back.

because he never saw rule breaker in HF, and therefore could not trace it.

as for the "archers arm" thing, remember that he didn't have access to all the memory within the arm, which is why he searched for the "killer move" during his fight with saber in the BAD END

needed more Saber love

>>1917036
>because he never saw rule breaker in HF
wat

>>1917036
Read HF before commenting on it.

>>1917026
The shadow was more like an avatar of Avenger, part of his wish to be born manifested throught Sakura.
The bridge connecting Sakura and Avenger was the command spell with Avenger, and using Rule Breaker Shirou cancelled that, so as soon as the "bridge" disappeared the shadow disappeared as well.

>>1917030
or maybe she knows but doesn't tell you, since there's not an emergency like Shirou dying because of a cut arm? She could care less about who a servant was in Fate because she didn't bond with Shirou enough to care about him.

Anyways, what was up with Ilya being a master? If I'm not mistaken they say that the more servants the grail absorbs, the more weak the homunculus become because he has to devote energy to them and shit.
Are the Einzbern retards or what, sending a master they know will not be that useful later on?

>>1917045
>play

a vn is still a game

>>1917039
Is that Seiba? I can't see an ahoge.

>>1917048
their plan: Beserker is attached to prana filled homoculi

-> Beserker kills everyone
-> only people grail can choose is Ilya and Beserker

Ilya = grail, Einzburn = get grail

???

profit.

>>1917052
Dark Saber. but yeah, it is

>>1917048
>Are the Einzbern retards or what?

they are made of sperm. What have you excepted?

>>1917048

Illya more or less says "Who the fuck is Archer?" After the Berserker vs Archer fight. Plot hole lol.

>>1917051
>play
lol

>>1917048
>>Are the Einzbern retards or what, sending a master they know will not be that useful later on?

Useful for what? You do know that Ilya only has a year to live after this Holy Grail War right?

And she won't have problems sustaining Berserker, because they had her summon him 3 months early before the Grail began sustaining Servants normally, so she has had practice keeping him in this reality (like how Sakura kept Rider after HF). It hurt her like a real bitch though.

>>1917080
I meant later on in the Grail War, I know that stuff I'm not a noob.
The point is, Ilya can't do shit, and if she's eliminated Berserker disappears. When Ilya has enough servants in her she gets considerably weaker than before, exposing them to more risk.
I guess there's the whole betrayal thing going for them, but I can't help but feel the thing is stupid.

>>1917067
>they are made of sperm
So are you, genius..

>>1917002
No harem because Senpai belongs only to me, hehehe.

Just as planned.

>>1917102
ova

What's with this "Ilya getting weaker the more servants she absorbs" ?
I don't remember reading this anywhere.
I do recall that a normal human can't act as a grail because he'll begin losing his/her mind the more servants enter his/her body, and that's why they used Ilya since she was an homunculus.
But nothing about getting weaker.

>>1917120

I'd enter Ilya's body, if you know what I mean.

>>1917120
Ilya gets weaker the Servants she pulls.
During the Last days of the Fate route, she is taken care of by Taiga only to be kidnapped by Kotomine.

>>1917120
The more power she contains, the harder it is to maintain her human functions. Eventually she'd have to shed her human side entirely and only function as a magic circuit.

>>1917120

In Fate, Ilya collapses and falls into a coma after Caster dies and doesn't wake up till after the war due to most of her life functions going into being the grail. This is how it's meant to work. With Berserker to protect her and at that point there should only be one other servant left they should have had no trouble winning the war.

>>1917098
>>The point is, Ilya can't do shit
Exactly, if someone who can't do shit gets weaker, then...she still can't do shit?

If you're talking about the possibility that when the War is at End Game, and only Berserker and one other Servant is left, then she's still fine since she can still give mana
Out of all Masters, Ilya by herself is a sitting duck. Even Shinji can run away, but that's why Ilya has 2 meidos for some protection. And of course her guard dog Berserker.

To answer 'plotholes' for retards:

Ilya knows who he is in HF after seeing that his Arm, Magic and and Circuits are 100% compatible with Shirou. That took MUCH thought.
In Fate she absorbed a soul of a hero she had no real idea who is (or believe that Fate Shirou could somehow end up being Archer, take your pick)

As for 'Why not trace Rule Breaker again'.
Tracing Rule Breaker at that point would possibly make him unable to do the further required tracing(Regardless of quality of object, he has 3 tracings left).

Using too many on Saber would possibly spell doom.
Since Rho Aius, Rule Breaker and the Final Excalibur on Normal end are 3, using it on Saber would mean he could not finish of Angra.
Finally, Saber was for many purposes dead and was back only as an enemy.Shirou could not hope at that point to save everyone regardless, he chose to ensure Sakura's safety.

Your 'plotholes' are a result of you knowing all the facts beforehand and demanding that characters do the same.

>>1917188
Er, the retard is you. Who said he had to trace Rule Breaker twice? See OP: Using Rule Breaker once does not destroy it, or else Rin could only use the Zelretch dagger blast one time.

>>1917197
After beating Saber, Shirou does not KNOW what he will encounter.
Wasting a tracing beforehand for something he is not 100% sure he will have to use, not the smartest move.

If Shirou had META knoweldge that right after Dark Saber, Rin would not have beaten The Shadow, Sakura or whatever and Sakura whould NOT glomp him immediately (since she has come to her senses somewhat when SHirou comes), then YES, prepping Rule Breaker would be logical.

>>1917188
>Ilya knows who he is in HF after seeing that his Arm, Magic and and Circuits are 100% compatible with Shirou. That took MUCH thought.
In Fate she absorbed a soul of a hero she had no real idea who is (or believe that Fate Shirou could somehow end up being Archer, take your pick)

"There's no servant i dont know" - Illya to Gil, Fate route

It's a plot hole.

>>1917207
Didn't you read HF properly? He was already planning to trace Rule Breaker and use it on Sakura. If he was smart enough to figure out it would work on Sakura, I don't see why he wouldn't just trace it first and use on Saber, then on Sakura later.

>>1917215
Don't all of his projected weapons aside from Kansho and Byakuya dissipate after using their ability anyway?

>>1917197
>>Using Rule Breaker once does not destroy it
You so sure about that? And you so sure it will work on Seiba?

Tracing a Magical Phenomenom aka Noble Phantasm != Tracing some Crystal Sword that only a specific family can use. That's pretty much why you don't get anyone complaining about how Zelretch Sword is so hax and "LOL WHY DIDNT THE JUST MAKE IT AND P0WNZ EVERYONE!!11". The Sword has no real legend, hence why it isn't exactly difficult for Shirou to trace it(and let it stay longer in the real world), so long as he can peek at it once from Ilya's memories. And in the end, only Rin can use it.

>>1917217
See: Rin blasting away Zelretch on Sakura. Like a hundred times. After it was traced a few hours back.

>>1917213
boasting and grandstanding is a plothole, riiighhtt

>>1917215
Again, since he has very few tracings left, using it BEFOREHAND would be unwise.
You just insist that the opposite would be better.
>>1917213
Regardless, even if she realised who Archer was after absorbing him, why tell them?
No purpose.

>>1917223

Illya was not boasting at that time. Gil was. Plothole.

>>1917225
>Regardless, even if she realised who Archer was after absorbing him, why tell them?

Why question who he is then?

Let's say Shirou traces Rule Breaker and it actually works on Saber, restoring her agohe. Then what? He contracts with her, despite him already having problems with his body? Second Option: bring her to Rin for a contract. Oops, she's knocked out. And wait, isn't that SHADOW still there, the shadow that can still corrupt any servants that come close?

>>1917227
...
You have the Heroic spirit Emiya inside your belly.
You See a pansy Eniya Shirou in front of you.
Sure, the first thing you thinks is 'HE BECOMES A HERO'.
Ilya did not grasp at that exact point, right after absorbing him his true nature.

Simple as that.
Not a plothole.

>>1917238
Thank God, someone who understands.

Please quote me the part where Ilya asks who was that guy in regards to Archer. The exact words.

>>1917241
>Not a plothole

It is.

>>1917245
A character not realizing something obscure and not obvious right away is a plothole?

>>1917245
You are just a fucking retard that since this is one of the the various issues Nasu doesn't hammer in your brain, since he assumes 'Eh' he'll get it', you think 'CANNOT BE EXPLAINED, I SPOTTED IT. FUUUCK'

>>1917249

>>1917251
...?

>>1917256

>>1917257
>>1917251
You are one butthurt little dude.

>>1917259

So this why people think TM fans are faggots...

All aboard the maturity train! Next stop, Non-existance!

>>1917264
Pretty much. People mistake the ones trolling and spamming BAWW images at whoever proposes reasonable arguments against either 'SHIKI KILLS EVERYTHING' or this kind of stuff as being the majority of TM fans, because they stand out like sore thumbs.

>>1917266
Oh, here it comes.
Here comes the night train.

eh, looks like shitty troll lost his argument, nothing new here

>>1917270

>>1917274

>>1917243
Fate route, cutscene just before the first sex scene:

'The battle itself has ended much earlier.
But Berserker's master has forgotten to act as this result is too surprising and unexpected.
She has to pursue her prey, but she is only looking at this scene in astonishment.
'I can't believe it. Who was he?'
Her servant was the most powerful. There should be only one or two servants able to match Hercules, the most famous of all the heroic spirits.
But Archer, a heroic spirit of unknown identity, has defeated him...'

>>1917284
Unknown, as in no hero who has ever been praised in the past(guess why).
Seeminly, a 'nobody' (unlike Certain Kings and Lights or Irelands), managed to half Kill Fucking Berserk Hercules.

And if she realised his 'identuty', all the more reason.

You should get the context, instead of taking evrything in face value.

>>1917249
>>1917274

Funny how you call people who disagree with your opinions as trolls when the first one to throw an insult was actually the butthurt one. Haha, no wonder they call TM-fags retards.

>>1917290
It's a troll when all the person does is repeat the same line of reasoning with no justification beyond roundabout logic and repeating 'Yes, it is.'

It's called "passive trolling." Deliberately pissing the other person off to make them blow their top.

>>1917289

You should learn how to read and understand sentences. Illya in that scene had no clue to who Archer is.

>>1917290
durr hurr butthurt

>>1917297

>>1917299

It's not like you actually have all the facts. In fact, most of your statemets are guesses and opinions.

>>1917284

Archer didn't even know who he was at that point.

It's a stretch, but you could argue Ilya didn't either because Archer didn't know.

>>1917302
same goes to you

>>1917295
...Precicely my point.
A guy who after going all out took 6 lifes of her Servant, and she had no clue who he even was (whether she learnt later irrelevant).
Usually, when Servants go all out and show their trump cards, most people learn which hero they were.

>>1917302
And outright stating "This is a plothole. I can tell from the pixels and having seen a lot of plotholes before," isn't a guess or opinion?

>>1917305

He's from the future doofus, that's why she doesn't know him instantly.

There are no other heroes that have been summoned from the future.

>>1917309

Becase it's a plothole.

>>1917315
Like I said, passive trolling.

>>1917319

It's not. You're just angry because i disagree with you opinion.

>>1917323
It's passive trolling.

>>1917324

No.

>>1917308
this

>>1917326
Really now, stop with the passive trolling.

>>1917312
...That's what I've been fucking saying.

>>1917330

You call it trolling, i call it stating facts that are backed with evidence from the VN.

>>1917337
Except you have no facts that prove what you're calling a plothole, and so we're back to passive trolling.

>>1917308
this. Remember Rin screwed up the summoning. Archer was supposed to not know who he himself was in that route, so why should Ilya? Even if she understands everything about him the moment she absorbs him, the knowledge simply isn't there.
As I said before, too much built on plot (lol routes) like a lot of Nasu stuff, but a valid reason is there and I've seen worse stuff.
Writing of dubious skill? Yeah. Plothole? I don't think so.

>>1917340

Stated a scene in the VN were character X recognizes who character Y is in Scenarior 3 while in Scenario 1, she does not.

>>1917343
Are we even sure he lost his memories? If you were Emiya Shirou, summoned from the future to kill your past self, facing an old friend from that day and age, would YOU go ahead and say "Oh, I'm Emiya Shirou!" when she asks for your identity?

>>1917343
Non-spoonfed info or ignored ellaborations (due to bad writing or them not being the focus) ALWAYS qualify as plotholes.

>>1917343

"I thought i threw them away"

Archer already remembers who he is even before the Berserker fight, with all the hints and tips he provided Shirou.

>>1917350
You do realize that that was in the anime, not the VN. The anime rewrote the scene.

>>1917346
That's very vague and non-specific for a fact. But then, with passive trolling you end up scraping the barrel when you're cornered.

>>1917355

Nasu supervised.

>>1917352

You just cant prove me wrong.

>>1917349
If that's your explanation of a plothole, then I can kinda agree. My definition of plothole is something that happens and has no valid even guessable reason to happen. If there's a valid theory, even if it's not spoonfed, in my opinion it's not a plothole.
If you think that's a plothole then lol, opinions and we better leave things like that.

>>1917356
Nor can you prove yourself right, hence why you resort to passive trolling.

>>1917358

Thats why you call me a troll because you cant prove me wrong.

So, for a specific case, where the story and background gives you many REASONS as to why it could happen, but decides not to 'confirm' any mostly for storyline reasons (since spoiling Archer's real identity 100% before UBW started would be stupid) is what we call a plothole and argue about?
...


Cool.

>>1917364

Excuses. Illya could have hinted something that would not reveal wh Archer but no, her power of recognition suddenly vanished and appeared only in HF.

>>1917363
No, I call you a troll because you're passively trolling.

>>1917365
how did suddenly vanish describe the situation at hand?
In Fate we have posted more than one valid theory with solid proof, in UBW she dies before Archer is defeated, and in HF she knows.

>>1917366

That's just being pathetic. I pity you.

>>1917365
In HF, EVERYONE realizes who Archer is since his fucking arm fits SHirou.
It has nothing about powers or recognition, memories, souls, future or past.

In Fate, she is surprised at that moment and it's never elaborated again.

...
Yeah, fucking plotholes.

>>1917371
The feeling is likewise. Please, go on and continue your passive trolling, though.

>>1917372
>EVERYONE

Only Illya. Shirou didnt know, Rin didnt know, Sakura didnt know.

>>1917373

Ok

>>1917374
Sakura was not there to see the Arm, Rin realised (she realized it with VAGUER hints in UBW for fucks sake), Kotomine knew, and Shirou didn't even care at that point (they don't explain it to him either IIRC).
Shirou is the last one to realize things anyway, and Oonce again, Archer's identity is not the focus.

The focus is using the power of his arm.
You are grasping at straws.

>>1917379

Kotomine knew shit about Archer = Shirou. Rin didnt put two and two together.

You are grasping at straws.

>>1917039
All the trolling aside, where is that from?

>>1917382
...Stating such things as facts is misleading, ya know.

>>1917388

But im right.

>>1917390
The game does not state 'Alas, they were unaware Poor Yorick'.
And seeing as how Kotomine is the master 'Spirit heal/surgeon' and Rin knows about Magic, and Ilya also hinting the reason the transplant worked because they are one and the same'. amd SHirou realising who the fuck Archer and his magic were (and Shirou is not that stupid not to realize that he and Archer having the same exact fucking magic can mean one thing) makes your statement more and more sketchy.

What scene in the Fate route reveals Ilya's ability to recognize any hero she absorbs?

set fail

>>1917238

Couldn't Saber be contracted to Ilya? Then Shirou could take on Kotomine and purify Sakura, then Saber (avoiding the Shadow at a distance, if possible) ends the Grail with excalibur.

...yeah the whole thing is far fetched, but it'd be a nice Good End to HF

>>1919312
Saber can't be saved. She was driven insane by being consumed by the shadow. Severing her contract with Sakura isn't going to save her mind.

>>1917030
If there's one thing I love on the internet, it's fatties sloshing over each other to point out "plot holes" in a pathetic attempt to prove they're somehow better to everyone else.

I think you guys are failing to realize that a lot of the events in Nasu's writing are dictated by the themes and ideas he wants to present, which take precedence over any other consideration. Regardless of everything else, Saber had to die in order to show that Shirou had totally forsaken everything else solely to protect Sakura.

>>1919896
But then I can't point out plotholes that don't exist to try to prove my superiority.

>>1919340

Not exactly true, she did and that is why she said "I never hated you until now" if you try to save Saber in HF.

What everyone seems to be forgetting is even if he did used Rule Breaker on Dark Saber what would happen?

Saber have NO Independent Action and would vanish if she could not form a contract and Shirou was far too weak to be able to form a contract.

Saber could not be saved, Shirou simply taken the fastest and safer course of action.

As Tiger Doujo said ... you want to save Saber, play the Fate route.

>>1917207
lol what

>>1917238
At that point, Shirou's patent-pending Avalon insurance would have kicked in, and suddenly his body would have had far less problems. The STANDING problem, however, is that Saber would have likely killed Sakura unless Shirou talked her down. And seeing that Rider was wedged in a wall, Shirou was hobbling and weak...bad end for Sakura.

Of course, if he HAD convinced her, it would have really been Harem End.

So now you know why Nasu didn't write it that way.

I'm just a little bit confused by this topic. Using Rule Breaker on Saber would've been the same as using the last projection on her; Shirou would've been left a vegetable, and Saber would have disappeared from having no mana source or gone to Sakura and been reabsorbed/ended.

>>1917243

>>1920246

>>1920248

>>1920182

Avalon at best helps regenerates his body but not mana, Avalon was useless since what it does is prefect defence.

Also think for a bit WHY Avalon was not working in HF ... even if he helped for him to recover from injuries the damage of his internal conflict with Archer's Arm was far too great, his body was breaking down from the inside and Avalon could never fix it.

>>1920401
Not to mention he was no longer linked to Saber, which is the sole reason Avalon was working in the first place.

>>1920225

Awesome CG is awesome. Also, on that note, can anyone tell me what the conversation between Saber Alter and Saber was about at the end of Saber Alter's arcade mode in F/UC? (possibly relevent to this thread)