/jp/ - Otaku Culture

Cirno

Raymoo, then Marisa, then everyone else

>>13370424
Cirno!

Depends on whether you mean physically, magically, and destructively powerful OR powerful against another individual.

>>13370494
Overall.

>>13370424
Maybe Suika when sober.

>>13370424
My dick

>>13370424
>>13370499
Yukari claims in PCB that there are people who can beat her in a fight, but she's still "stronger" because she can just outsmart them.

>>13370424

Shiki Eiki is stronger than Reimu, Yuyuko, and Yukari combined by a long shot, according to Yukari herself.

The judge is the strongest character in Touhou canon, and is probably the only one you could call "benevolent" with a straight face.

PC-98 Reimu. She killed demons with a soccer ball.

The Dragon God.

>>13371260
This

>>13371260
This. PC-98 Reimu went hard as fuck.

>>13371260
>>13372750
And she's the cutest too.

Yamada is plenty badass.

>>13371260
It was the ball that killed the stuff, not Reimu.
PC-98 Reimu is mostly seen as an almost clumsy maiden.

>>13371107
Probably this, she also claims she isn't from Gensokyo, either.

Tier 1: Shikieiki, Yukari, Shinki, Reimu, Moon Bitches, Yumemi (?)
Tier 2: Everyone else

Am I really the only one who likes making retarded tier lists

>>13374303

Rinnosuke

Is it that time again? We need proper thread image.

>>13374382
Rinnosuke is, being half-youkai, the most powerful male we know of and therefore the most powerful character in the entire setting.

This is the right answer.

>>13370424
Fuck off, and take your "vote for reimu" threads with you.

okuu is the only one with a canon so probably her

Your mother.

>>13374774
>>13370424

>>13374484
Rinnosuke is only immune to diseases (both of the youkai and of the humans), for the rest he's just one weak ass dude (compared to these named characters)

God Tier: Eiki, Yukari, Eirin, Moon Bitches
Tier 1: Reimu, Marisa, Stage 5 Playable Bosses, Kasen, Yuuka, Stage 6 Bosses, Final Bosses on Fighters, Yuugi (because her sake not even drop), Ex Bosses, Letty Whiterock (ZUN stated that she can cause an incident by herself).
Tier 2: Satori, Patchouli, Stage 5 Bosses, Alice, Tewi, Stage 4 Bosses, Nazrin, Ichirin.
Tier 3: Stage 3 Bosses, Koakuma, Cirno.
Tier 4: All the rest
The order the names are listed is the power level from strongest to weakest inside the tier.

This is my opinion since Power levels in Touhou are inconsistent as fuck.

Dragon God:Everyone worships him

Yukari:It's stated that she can manipulate the boundaries between anything,and if something that exist doesn't have a boundary,than she find or create that boundary,because in Touhou verse every thing that exist has a boundary.The only weakness that she has is the fact she can't connect her gaps to certain locations.

Shiki: I put her below Yukari but I think there about equal in power,and Yukari also lies about shit.

Yuyuko:Can cause death instantly,yet she can't kill Kaguya, or Mokou,if she can get Yukari to manipulate the boundary Mortal and Immortality than thats game right there.

Reimu:Fantasy Nature is broken as shit,Zun stated if she uses Fantasy Nature without the spell card rules than no one would be able to beat her,I thinks that statement is bullshit because he says the same thing about the Moon Bitches.Also She destroyed a planet in the first game.

Eirin: She deliberately lower power in IN because she didn't want to upset Kaguya.She also trained the moonbitches.

Moon bitch #1: Yorihime Bitch can summon over 4 million gods and disable any holy power(She did it to Reimu in SSiB)not to mention time tricks doesn't work on her.Zun mentions that no one can beat her,but I call bullshit because she had trouble defeating Remilia,and Remilia was kicking her ass in the first half of the fight until she wen God hax on her.

Moonbitch #2:Toyohime Same abilities as Yukari but she still isn't on the same level as Yukari's boundary manipulation.The only thing she over Yukari is that can go anywhere without limitations.She also has a fan that can cause mass destruction.

For the rest (I don't feel like typing out there descriptions)But remember this is my opinion only,so feel free to correct my mistakes,or disagree.
Yuugi
Flandre
Suika
Remilia
Utsuho
Yuuka
Marisa
Utsujo

howcome nobody's mentioned THE NAE

she is stronger than reimu by a good margin

>>13374920
Why is Marisa so high?
She is nothing without the mini-Hakkero.
Also Aya should be in Tier 1 and Reimu God tier because cheat ability.

Mima was strong enough to create her own world so I guess she can be considered one of the strongest.
I wonder what kind of ability she would have if she was in a window game?

>>13375053
Aya can only manipulate wind. She's Tier 2 in my mind. The tier list is all opinion-based, so I know you will disagree with me. Marisa can solve incidents without the mini-hakkero. Reimu can be God Tier or not, I'm still deciding.

>>13375044
"Reimu, what does the scouter say about her cock-sucking level?"

>>13375305
Scouters don't measure that.

>>13374920
>>13374986
Where's Kaguya in these lists? She's way more broken than anybody there.

Touhou powerlevels are a nightmare to discuss because there's several concepts of "power".

1) Several Touhous are spellcasters. Some of them are even called magicians, but even those who aren't are mostly defined by how powerful is their magic. Eirin being the prime example here. Her power is kind of meh on paper, but then she "uses a spell" and places the Planet Earth inside a box.

Other than Eirin and the magicians, Miko, Reimu, Yukari and actually a good part of the characters, youkai or otherwise can cast spells.

2) Several Touhous have absurd "I win" powers. Any fight where the likes of Flandre, Kaguya or Yukari are serious about winning are lost fights. What happens when one of these monsters goes against each other should be mostly dependent of who goes first, and then see below:

3) Several Touhous have super-human attributes. From Onis who can throw mountains to Aya and Youmu moving in a flash to vampires that can do all that. You could imagine a scenario where a magical powerhouse like Eirin or Reimu dies to Youmu, simply because the half-ghost cuts down the otherwise normal human when she blinks her eyes.

>>13375436
>You could imagine a scenario where a magical powerhouse like Eirin or Reimu dies to Youmu, simply because the half-ghost cuts down the otherwise normal human when she blinks her eyes.

But Eirin is actual divinity, not a human being. ZUN even said this himself.

Who are the most beloved and attractive Touhou canon wise?

If ran can inherit Yuukari's power, doesn't that make her more powerful than Yukari when combined with her own innate powers???

>>13375080

We're only talking about canon characters, kid

>>13375529
No

>>13375529

Yukari's full power + 0 = Yukari's power

Ran a shit. A grat one

>>13375529

I think it's phrased more like, the power she can gain from Yukari is equal to Yukari's full strength. So if Ran is a 2 and Yukari is a 5, Ran can gain up to 3 power from Yukari, to equal her 5. But hey, I might be completely and utterly wrong.

Either way I feel like power levels are purposefully ambiguous in touhou, except for a few obnoxious characters (Watatsukis). In terms of the games, just think of it as the protagonists always winning, I guess. Not sure what to make of PCB in that regard.

Why do everyone rate Alice so low? If she used her full power (grimoire, etc.) she could probably be as powerful as Marisa in magical power.
Also, Vampires confirmed to be average compared to Tengu/Oni in their specialities. Vampires just got some strong powers.
Oni confirmed to be pretty broken overall, atleast if Aya can be trusted.
Moonbitches should include Eirin and Kaguya imo, since they're both bitches and broken in terms of power.

>>13375698
It doesn't really matter, because the top tier of power is all a quickdraw anyway Except for Shiki Eiki, who is never rated high enough so power lists are silly regardless.

>>13375698
>Vampires confirmed to be average compared to Tengu/Oni in their specialities
The thing about this is that vampires can build
momentum,.Oni specializes in strength and Tengu specializes in speed,while vampires have the both of best worlds combined with they're strong magical powers.

>>13375719
Oni strength is the "did you get the number of that dwarf planet" kind of strength, though.

Vampires may be tengu tier but no way they're on par with oni in terms of physical prowess. They make it up with unkillability and bullshit transformation powers though.

>>13374791
All other males we know of are just regular dudes at the village, so Rinnosuke wins by default.

Unless we count Unzan as male, then his coudly megacock is the strongest character.

>>13375719
A shame that Oni also got strong magical power and powerful abilities, then.

As for Shikieiki, I'm not sure myself what she actually is, but she seems undefeatable from what's been said about her. I don't even get what her power is?

>>13375745
Like I said is all about about momentum,they may not be strong but they can still cause some serious damage.

>>13375753
All the momentum in the world won't help you when the other little girl tells you that she killed the dinosaurs and you can't even call her bullshit because oni don't lie.

>>13375745
I don't think it's close to tengu level either, just look at Illusionary Dominance/Peerless Wind God.

Anyway, what is Yuuka's physical strength really? According to Akyuu, ZUN seems to have hyped it up alot.

Oni are overrated, just like tengu.

They probably fought on the moon and got killed by moon rabbits wielding magic guns.

>>13375765
Oni don't lie is just a clever way of saying Oni play with word.

Remember how Suika said she's gonna kill the moon, and only actually killing the reflection of moon on the sky? And the next night it comes back?

>>13375462
Kaguya

>>13375928
Truly, she's gorgeous.

>>13375771
Yuuka is among the strongest Youkai, which includes Oni.

>>13375765
>>13375771
Here this Remilia Flew around the fake moon in mere seconds,not mention she flew from gensokyo towards the moon.It took three days for Patchouli's rocket to reach the moon.So that's about the same distance of our moon to there's.
So here's this

The distance between our moon and planet is
238,900 miles.Remilia covers this distance in mere seconds.Light speed is 186,282 mph.If you don't believe it look at SSiB where she manage to get a few hits on Yorihime who reacted to Marisa's Master Spark which is also light speed.

Now here is this,it says that Remilia can ripped old tree's from the ground with a single hand.lets equate her lifting force to her punching force.The oldest trees weigh in about 4500lbs

Force is equal to an objects mass times it's acceleration, F= M x A
lets put Remilia speed at light speed so thats
186,282 X 4200= 391192.2 tons to force.

Remilia>Yuugi when it comes to using speed in momentum.She may not be as fast Aya or strong as Suika or Yuugi but she can hold her on.

PHYSICS BITCH

>>13375964
Physics stops mattering very quickly when magic is involved.

>>13375980
I know Suika can control Density,but Yuugi what does yuugi do instead of having monster like strength.

>>13375980

Given that she is a vampire child I would say some sort of magic is involved.

Power is a fluctuating variable made out of variables, and we don't know everything to make a 100% solid analysis.
As it already was said, top tier characters like Yukari and Reimu, Eientei team, some lunarians on the Moon, perhaps Yuyuko and maybe Remilia if her fate power is true.

Presence of judges-janitors-psychopomps-top god tier as well as unknown technology levels, uncertaince, power level hiding and lying complicates things hard.
Especially "meta-lying" with characters who are aware of us and possible "known-unknown" threats and thus taking us into account, so that not even an innocent outside observer knows about true levels.
After all sharing any vital knowledge with anyone is dangerous and bad, unless it's done for a purpose. Especially if it's done for a purpose. We are talking about magical geniuses after all.

So best set to have is proper mindset + high intelligence + experience + precognition/prediction/teleportation & portals & wormholes & dimensional boogaloo, because you have access to more resources and can gain even more power.
As for enemies you can either run away or at least apply some velocity to them and then throw them into a star/magnetar/black hole/void far-far away before they get to you.
Judges are still vague, but even if they aren't the strongest, their position makes them dangerous by definition. Although they may have no reason to interfere much in the first place.

And the rest is mostly irrelevant, because if they do something too radical and get caught, they will pay dearly.

So you should bet on Yukari, because she's cooler, sexier, is actually from our planet, and even if all youkai died, grand scheme of things and rules of nature would not change, thus youkai apologists and youkai haters can go fuck themselves. Although she is likely to be targeted first, since she's known.

I wonder if taking people to Gensokyo for food damages Earth biome self-sustainability long-term. Probably not much.

>>13370424
Dragon God supposedly is the absolute being.

The Oni's if we're talking in raw power, Suika for mystical power and Yuugi for raw physical power beat everyone in Gensokyo. The Tengu's are no slouch in abilities and the Gensokyo power scale and they all regard the 4 oni's as virtual gods themselves.

Doesn't say much though...since for example Shiki Eiki Yamaxanadu has more influence over everyone and a more absolute power as in nobody can really escape her judgement when its passed. She can even see through even Yukari's lies and secrets, I think Satori was the only other one capable of it.

There is also the moonbitches Toyohime and Yorihime, we don't know enough about them. But the little we're shown and told of them they could manhandle most of the people in Gensokyo and at the very least did repel Yukari's moon invasion.

Shinki if you want to count PC canon is supposed to literally be something above even that of a god.

You also can't forget Flandre by herself she is just strong and fast nothing too special, but she has that weird ass 'mystic eyes' which gives her effectively an insta-kill button on everything. Only reason she doesn't use it is because she was told not to and 'is a good girl'. We don't know to what extent it works to but as far as we know there have been no limits to it shown.

>>13375994
Control over all supernatural phenomena.
It's a very open ended power.


Though Yuugi is supposedly even stronger than Suika anyway.

>>13376017
She's still weaker than the judge of paradise.


Not that that says much, since everyone is.

>>13376027
Not Yuuka

>>13376019
The same way that Flandre can insta-kill everyone, so does Yuyuko.

>>133760274
And here the vagueness part comes in.
I doubt we will ever know full deal anyway, as I doubt ZUN will make Touhou: Total War super 4x FPSRPGRTS Land Air Sea Space combat simulator where gambits pile up at light speed and everyone protects their own interests with lethal danmaku, guns and missiles.

>>13376058 >>13376027
Oh well.

>>13375342
I'm very grateful for what you did.

>>13374776
canon =/= cannon

>>13376029
Yuuka can't beat Reimu. Shiki Eiki absolutely destroys Reimu in a fight.


Really, though, Eiki would never pick a fight, and she only dispenses punishment if you deserve it.

>>13376094
That was before Yuuka learned magic to become ultimate flower master.

Daily reminder that Reisen beats Yuyuko, Remilia and Yukari in a row.

Earth is low-tier.

>>13375390
>Stage 6 Bosses
>Kaguya
Do I need to explain more?

>>13376106
That doesn't explain shit considering her powers.

Hey dudes.

Just opinion. Tier 1 is pretty clogged since so many people can be strong Tough to separate all of those. Really just a big contest of who can hit first since most have some sort of insta-win thing or are just hella strong.

God Tier: Eiki, Yukari, Eirin, Kaguya, Yorihime, Toyohime
Tier 1: Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Remilia, Flandre, Yuyuko, Ran, Mokou, Sanae, Kanako, Suwako, Utsuho, Koishi, Yuugi, Suika, Kasen, Yuuka, Aya, Tenshi, Kokoro, Byakuren, Miko, Mamizou, Sekuna, Raiko
Tier 2: Patchouli, Letty, Alice, Youmu, Reisen, Keine, Komachi, Nitori, Rin, Shou, Nue, Futo, Seiga, Iku
Tier 3: Cirno, Meiling, Prismrivers, Momiji, Medicine, Hina, Yamame, Satori, Murasa, Ichirin, Yoshika, Tojiko, Kagerou, Benben, Yatsuhashi, Seija, Hatate
Tier 4: Rumia, Daiyousei, Koakuma, Chen, Lily, Tokiko, Wriggle, Mystia, Tewi, Sunny, Star, Luna, Shizuha, Minoriko, Rinnosuke, Parsee, Nazrin, Kogasa, Kyouko, Wakasagihime, Sekibanki,
Tier 5: Akyuu, Kosuzu

>>13376056
Yuyuko can't instakill what's already dead, like other ghosts, zombies or vampires, supposing Touhou vampires go all the way with the "undead" thing. Her power also explicitly fails against the hourai immortals (even if you could imagine that she kills them just fine but they revive afterwards).

Flandre, otherwise, can destroy anything (including Yuyuko). The limitations for her power are physical. If you can somehow impede your "eye" to move to her hand (don't letting her see you or destroying her hand, for example), you should be safe.

>>13376478
But Reisen beats Yukari, Remilia and Yuyuko...

>>13376478
If Sakuya is in tier 1 Reisen should be there too.

>>13376492
I actually just seen that what I posted was dumb after I posted it.

Speaking about the Hourai immortals, when they ''resurrect'', do they generate clothes together with their new body?

>>13376499
>>13376504
Reisen is a slut.

>>13376506
I'm pretty sure that if their body is there in some form, it just rejuvenates. If they're atomized, they just pop back into existance I imagine.

>>13376511
Reisen has a big butt!

>>13376515
In Magic Team dialog, Alice states that the Hourai's body does die, but their soul doesn't, and in order to "resurrect", they create a new body as well.

Do they create clothes? If you beat one of the Hourai immortals, you get to see them naked? This is important.

Wriggle, of course. Don't underestimate bugs.

>>13376478
>>13376499

Yea I guess since it was a fighter that might be valid. Thing is if you start using the games too much you end with stuff like Mystia beats Eiki which doesn't make too much sense. So cleaned up I think its something like

God Tier: Eiki, Yukari, Eirin, Kaguya, Yorihime, Toyohime
Tier 1: Reimu, Remilia, Flandre, Yuyuko, Mokou, Suika, Kasen, Yuugi, Yuuka
Tier 2: Marisa, Sakuya, Youmu, Ran, Reisen, Sanae, Kanako, Suwako, Utsuho, Koishi, Aya, Tenshi, Kokoro, Byakuren, Miko, Mamizou, Sekuna, Raiko
Tier 3: Patchouli, Letty, Alice, Keine, Komachi, Nitori, Rin, Shou, Nue, Futo, Seiga, Iku
Tier 4: Cirno, Meiling, Prismrivers, Momiji, Medicine, Hina, Yamame, Satori, Murasa, Ichirin, Yoshika, Tojiko, Kagerou, Benben, Yatsuhashi, Seija, Hatate
Tier 5: Rumia, Daiyousei, Koakuma, Chen, Lily, Tokiko, Wriggle, Mystia, Tewi, Sunny, Star, Luna, Shizuha, Minoriko, Rinnosuke, Parsee, Nazrin, Kogasa, Kyouko, Wakasagihime, Sekibanki,
Tier 6: Akyuu, Kosuzu

>>13376532
Bug milk!

>>13370565
Suika is never sober. So, that's not a real character.

>>13376515
No butt is more compelling than Reisen's

>>13376478
Drop Cirno to tier 4. She's very talented "for a fairy", but if not by danmaku, she'd not have a chance against like Murasa or Hina.

Up Hatate to tier 2. Fandom did some bad things to her image, but she's still a crow tengu, and that should mean something.

Drop Kokoro and Raiko to tier 2. I know they're a final and an extra boss, but... they're not that powerful, conceptually speaking. I'm fine with Shinmyoumaru being tier 1, for pretty much the same reason Tenshi is also there (Artifact wielders).

>>13376499
Non-lethal danmaku fighting is not an all out lethal fighting.
Reisen's a pawn. She's got some powers, but it's not enough.
She would need plotting, preparations, fancy tools and cooperation to even get close in the first place to at least two of those.
And they can just kill her with a thought, suddenly a [method], or rip her apart with bare hands.

>>13370424
marisa

>>13376572
But all the battles so far are danmaku, how would you know that these powers are capable of that?

Reisen wave manipulation can make the Earth unhabitable if she tries hard enough.

>>13376083
Happy to be of service.

>>13376533

I have a really hard time believing Ran is that low.

>>13376610
So far.
But if someone wants to do an actual power rating, then there's no problem.
Isn't that what actual power levels are all about anyway?
Two sets of power levels then, normal danmaku game and combat at full power.

>>13376648
There would be a problem cuz no one knows about any limits yet.

People keep saying Yukari is stronger but the moonies style on her, not one but two times.

She only wins because of manipulation, and it's mainly because of pure Yuyuko.

>>13376644
We only know that she has the potential to be strong based on yukari's instruction. Otherwise on her own she just another youkai very strong with magic, with nothing particularly outstanding like the super-strength that the onis have. She is not even regarded by Akyuu to be as terrifying as Yuuka, so theres not much evidence to support her being among the likes of the vampires, immortal hobo, and onis.

>>13376572
Driving people incurably insane with wave-lengths so that they cannot even do anything doesn't count at all?

>>13376687
Pfft, insanity is just a small perk of wave manipulation.

>>13376700
What's the best she could do with it?

>>13376700
She could even hide her presence from their minds so she could just sneak up on them.

>>13376719
In the physics world, everything in the world is composed of wave.

So there's nothing she cannot do.

>>13376726
Damn. But I guess she cannot control every wave perfectly, otherwise it would be really powerful.

Her power is "wave manipulation", but it doesn't specifies which wave she can manipulate, and to which extent.

>>13376665
That's the problem, yes. Some things are too vague.
And the extent of manipulation is unknown. At it's logical extreme she's a physical god with any power she wants but we don't see any of it.
If she can simply open portals, she still has some advantages in speed and versatility. If she can do limited manipulation, and just holds back for her own benefits and plots, still versatile.
>>13376687
Range problem, need to use it first before you get attacked, willpower can affect it too, iirc. Portals can help get away or make an inescapable attack.
There are benefits to each ability certainly, but combat is not a still pond in which you always get a clear shot, especially with magical asspulls like here.
It's all about who will act first.

>>13376740
Even ZUN admits it:
>It's common knowledge that light is made of waves, but there's more to sight than just that. Space itself is waves, and the creatures, things, and of course, light in it are also all made of waves.

>Naturally, the thoughts and feelings of living things also consist of waves, and their wavelengths determine personalities.

>Reisen can tamper with these waves.

>>13376746
Alright. But it still doesn't specifies to which extent she can manipulate.

The vagueness is the main problem here.

>>13376740
From GoM

>Maybe if she doesn't expressly use her illusionary abilities, then she's actually really strong?

Seems like it can be used to the extent that Reisen can probably manipulate objects and space with her waves but chooses not to. So she actually can be quite fearsome with her power if only she were a bit more creative.

>>13376760
I'm pretty sure it means she can tamper with all of them m8.

>>13376769
That's sad, I wish she could use more waves in danmaku.

>>13376776
Have you read my post, "m8"? I agreed with her being able to manipulate every wave.

>>13376769
Poor Marisa, not knowing Reisen's gonna beat them all the master danmaku in the future (SWR).

>>13376746>>13376760
Problem of canon definiton, wave-particle theories and other theories beyond my comprehension aside, brain works not only on some degree of electromagnetism, but also on chemistry and you still need to use ability at the right time and place first.
Not to mention you probably need comprehension of such things to apply it creatively, but she probably knows a lot, especially considering the company she's in.

>>13376793
I think that she can manipulate objects and space, but prefers to use illusions.

She even likes to give weird names to her spell cards.

To make things even more confusing, "Power to do [thing]" has a hidden variable, which is how much [thing] you can do before you need to rest. Cirno having power over cold doesn't imply she can cause the Heat Death of the Universe to happen now, or even that she can freeze more than large frogs at once.

Two canon examples for this, at opposite ends of the power spectrum are Rumia and Yukari. ZUN gave Rumia "power over darkness" explicitly because that sounds like something an end boss should have, and the joke is that Rumia is actually a dumb kid that can only create a bubble of darkness that blinds herself.

At the other end, Yukari's power is "manipulation of boundaries", which means pretty much omnipotence on paper. As written, she could simply play with the boundary between [the situation right now] and [the situation like she wants] and be done with it. But then you read CoLR and you see that to teleport to the Moon using her power, Yukari needs to wait for a particular time of a particular day, her power has limits.

>>13376804
There's also energy problem. How much can she do before she's exhausted?

>>13376806
>>13376807

>To make things even more confusing, "Power to do [thing]" has a hidden variable, which is how much [thing] you can do before you need to rest
This is the main problem while discussing Touhou power levels.
We just don't know what are their limits, we just know what they can do to a certain limit.

>>13376744
The Watatsukis noted those traits on Reisen especially in CiLR, therefore she probably wouldn't have much trouble using it against opponents with extremely strong wills.

>>13376806
Makes me wonder if there are any mcguffins to maximise their powers.
Like that galaxy in a cat necklace from MiB 1, except make it that it actually affects shit in different mysterious ways.
I want more lunarian stories.

>>13376806
Damn, this was meant to link to Reisen' power discussion. The conclusion is that while technically everything is made of waves, Reisen could simply not have enough [mana points] to affect the waves that compose matter, and does "just" photon manipulation instead. Or that Matter as Wave is simply too complicated for her to grok, just as Rumia doesn't go all Zato-1 with her power.

This also nicely explains why Yuugi isn't using her "control of things Confucius never talked about" (check out what the words describing her power actually mean) to make every youkai, ghost and robot to obey her.

>>13376813
What if everyone in Gensokyo is lying to look cool and interesting?
Except judges, of course.
>land of boasting

>>13376833
Well, Reisen got her gun now so in a fight without power, she's gonna win.

>>13376833
If I were in Gensokyo, even if my power was a shitty one, I'd spend weeks thinking in a nice "power to do XXX" thing.

>>13376833
Who ye quoting?

>>13377185
me

>>13376806
Vague concept powers are a real bitch, huh?

Reisen is really, really STRONG!!!

I think that overall the 2hus powers are handled nicely, but if I was ZUN I'd never include shit like boundary manipulation, power to invite death, power to destroy anything, immortality and the like without giving them heavy disadvantages. Especially "total" immortality is a terrible thing to include in your fiction, because most of the time it either contradicts other things your setting includes, or breaks power relations.

>>13377827
Nah most of the times they never use that power anyway, it's just fodder for discussion among the fandom.

>13377827
Power balance only matters when it's a part of the plot. ZUN avoids it entirely by making the battles completely inconsequential.

>>13376548
>>13370565
>Aya
"You've been drinking all day now. "

>Suika
"All day? Look, I've been drinking non-stop for CENTURIES. The last time I was sober is ancient history."

>Aya
"I suppose it's too late to say that drinking that much might be bad for your health... "

Emh emh.
And I'm looking forward to other mu soft games, too bad i don't understand japanese YET

^ I think i replied to the wrong post.

>>13376806
>But then you read CoLR and you see that to teleport to the Moon using her power, Yukari needs to wait for a particular time of a particular day, her power has limits.
I think that was reasonable though since they made it pretty explicitly clear that the Lunarians also had a individual in Toyohime with a similar power set to Yukari.

Furthermore Yukari has in the past tried to overrun the Lunar capital with an all out invasion. The Lunarians aren't idiots, after that they surely would've created countermeasures against Yukari's power.

I think what Yukari has over everyone else though is it has been proven she can nonchanantly pop in and out of Gensokyo into our world. Most of CoLA detailed that fact pretty clearly with her interractions with Rinnosuke she could pop out like a shopping trip and the Three Fairies series also touched on it. I think even FS showed she is the main provider for the Scarlet Mansion for most of their more unusual stuff.

One of them actually ended with her actually chilling out in a city overlooking a motorway.

>>13376813
I'm pretty sure we were shown an limit for the immortals however.

At the very least Moukou whilst truly immortal it doesn't apply to her mind & spirit, it's the whole reason Keine is such a busybody. She realized whilst Moukou physically is inexhaustible that doesn't mean she can't become emotionally unhinged or depressed, she is still a human girl. It's why she forces her to socialize occasionally and why Moukou found re-uniting with her worst enemy almost therapeutic.

It's the only reason Kaguya and Moukou were even defeatable in IN was because whilst they'll never die they can still get tired or mentally exhausted like any normal human.

>>13375449
>But Eirin is actual divinity, not a human being. ZUN even said this himself.
Source please

>>13378326
Interview at the end of SoPM.

>>13378119
Their immortality applies to their soul, so yes. The only way to beat the immortals would be by mental exhaustion.

The term "Immortality" makes it seems like they're unbeatable, but dying multiple times in a single fight would be very traumatic.

Of course the immortality gives an enormous advantage, however it alone isn't a winner factor.

This makes me think that they're very strong minded.

>Manipulating eternity and the instantaneous
Everything you do will take forever. How do you beat this?

>>13379195
Swarming with non-direct methods and plots, finding a way to either neutralize ability or at the very least take away opportunities to use it.
Or avoid all manners of conflict all together.

>>13379195
Stopping time entirely immediately solves the problem of stretched infinitesimals.

>>13379265
Resources like food are limited. Not to mention need for knowledge, skills and tools.
Even though she can manipulate space too, there is still a risk of getting into a trap.

Could this Oni technically throw a punch of infinite density?

>>13379517
Perhaps, but not only energy requirements are ridiculous, doing so would likely backfire really fucking hard on the user, and to be precise, environment around the user.

>>13379517
Can Rumia cover the whole universe in darkness?

Powers may be cool as fuck: stopping time, summoning gods etc. but the effectiveness of said powers is limited to the users.
Everyone can run, not everyone can run really fast.

>>13378837
Considering the Lunar capitol attempted to kill Kaguya several times, I doubt she really cares much about it.

>>13379265
Sakuya has to cast a spell in order to stop time. This means that she physically has to think/do something. Kaguya can act before any time has literally passed which makes her able to do anything before Sakuya would even know what just happened.

Shike Ike

>>13379803
>Kaguya can act before any time has literally passed which makes her able to do anything before Sakuya would even know what just happened.
Sakuya can deathbomb even after it happens so it's okay

>>13380450
FUCK.

>>13380450
Unless it's lethal fighting.

>>13379702
Rumia couldn't even cover the screen in darkness

>>13370424
Canon wise It's actually Eiki.
Yukari herself stated that even she, Reimu and Yuyuko wouldn't stand a chance against the Yamaxanadu if she were to fight them at full power.

>>13380604
Wasn't that statement a vaguely phrased one?

>>13371107
she isn't benevolent per se, she's just a hundred percent fair.

>>13374303
you forgot Yuyuko and Flandre for Tier 1. Y' know, power to kill (almost) anybody instantly and destroy everything...

>>13374920
Nigga, why are you putting Eirin in the god tier when she's a stage 6 boss?
Also, where's Flandre on (at least) Tier 1?

>>13375390
Lol, you serious? Power over eternity ain't got shit on Yukari's power to bend any border. She simply has to bend the borders of definition for eternity and Kaguya's fucked.

>>13380624
How can Yukari bend the border of a constant? There is no opposite to eternity.

>>13380624
Eirin is an immortal genius and possibly a deity. Obviously she's in top tiers.

>>13380623
It could also mean that it simply was pointless to argue with the yama, true.
However, Yukari stated in one of ZUN's works (Beautiful Flower of something - sorry, I'm bad with names) that she wouldn't be a match for Eiki at full power even with Yuyuko and Reimu as backup.

>>13380643
Constant/inconstant, finite/infinite, truth, nothingness, take away powers, specific target.
All things eventually end.
Semantics, anon.

>>13380643
Hm, I'd answer that if something is eternal, it in some kind exists.. So the opposite would be nothingness or non-existence.?

>>13380646
Ya well I know, but she's still a Tier 6 boss.
But more important still, why did you really forgot about Flandre? Her power is kinda hax.

>>13376106
>Yuyuko
>Stage 1 boss
Why yes, please explain more.

>>13380658
It's called eternity precisely because it doesn't end. It's the moon's domain. It's seamless. Shit, did you even read SSiB?

>>13380662
Power levels are about powers and their applications.
I didn't forgot about Flandre, since I'm not that guy.
She's in tops, but still needs to overcome potential obstacles and act quickly to exert her power.

>>13380675
She doesn't have a need to act quickly if she so much as has to glance at you and you go poof though.

>>13380672
You asked, I answered. We're talking about a magical reality warper, no?

>>13380648
There's also Yukari's dialogue with Sakuya in PCB
>If you're stronger than the Yama you can do whatever you want
>In what way could you possibly be stronger than the Yama
>In cunning

>>13380658
Yukari isn't that powerful. If she can only travel to the Moon once a month, then she isn't powerful enough to manipulate those concepts.

>>13380750
Seeing as the Yama knows literally everything about you that you have ever done, I kind of doubt that, and Sakuya doubts it too.

>>13380684
A magical reality warper who has been canonically shown to be powerless against seamless things (i.e. moon tech, moon magic, etc), yes.

>>13380773
>knows literally everything about you that you have ever done,
That got me thinking, how hard is it to outsmart Miko?

>>13380624
(That anon) I didn't place Flandre and Yuyuko in tier 1 because they're overhyped. I don't remember Yuyuko's ability being referred to as literally "instant kill" and Flandre's power is like the number 1 sniper skill and nothing more, plus it doesn't work on immortals or beings without a form anyways.

I put Yumemi there since she has way more destructive potential, if we're counting pc98 that is.

Also, you're really underestimating Eirin and Kaguya imo, they're both "Moonbitch" power level characters, for lack of a better word.

>>13380996
Eirin ya ok maybe.
But Kaguya? Her power isn't that great to be honest, in-game her Danmaku are not that bad, the only really difficult part about her fight is the timeouts at the end.
Really though, based purely on IN's gameplay etc, Marisa/Reimu and Reisen mop the floor with her. Actually, Reisen has quite the strong power. Sure, it wouldn't work properly against very determined characters, but she could break not-so-strong-willed characters in the Touhou Canon instantly by driving them insane.
But to come back to the topic at hand, why do you think I underestimate Kaguya?
From my understanding (and Akyuu's it seems), Kaguya's ability to manipulate eternity is almost the same as Sakuya's abilities. Sure, they are strong, but not haxx-like like some other powers

And as for Flan and Yuyuko being overhyped - overhyped they might be, but in the top tiers of any power rating they should be as well.
Yuyuko's ability is in fact an instant kill. Or, to cite the touhouwiki (yeah yeah, I know) "This is the ability to, without exception and without permitting any resistance, end the life of any living being, whether it be human or youkai. The only kind of creatures immune from this are Hourai Immortals."
And Flan... Well, "Flandre can destroy anything she wants, which is truly a frightening ability with no real weaknesses. By moving the "eye" of the object, where the tension is highest, and by attacking this eye, she is able to destroy the target. She is able to move the "eye" of. anything into the middle of her hand, then she pours her power into it or in other words, she crushes the "eye" and unconditionally destroys the target with just a squeeze. She states that everything has an "eye" and that she has those "eyes" in her hand. She destroyed a meteor with a single hand and without touching it, where Flandre stated that she "went squeeze and it went boom." (stated in PMiSS). based on that I for one think she might be able to wreck immortals as well.

>>13382944
Still can't beat Shiki Eiki.

really, why isn't she just in a tier on her own?

Why do you /v/tards always argue who could beat whom in a fight? I cannot possibly imagine a more pointless discussion, especially regarding Touhou where no ability is strongly defined or even measurable against other abilities.

>>13382953
We ought to find out lol.

>>13382957
we're not arguing who could beat whom in a fight, we're arguing about who's canoncally the strongest. Big difference.

>>13377914
True, but IMO it's still better for character powers to not be that far away from each other. Of course gaps between characters should still exist. Shiki being unbeatable makes sense as she's part of the Law that governs everything.

>>13380929
Akyuu mentioned that talking to her you get the feeling that she sees right through you, so probably pretty hard. Though it does depend on how exactly you're trying to outsmart her.

Power level thread are the most stupid thing ever

>>13383016
Yeah but 2hu power level discussions usually don't devolve into >power man beats your mary sue character lmaooo

Truly ZUN is of genious

>>13382944
>in-game her Danmaku are not that bad
Yeah, having what is considered by most people to be the hardest spellcard IN THE WHOLE SERIES is not that bad. Yup yup, sure. Whatever you say, expert danmakuman.

Everyone forgot that Okuu can just blow up the whole universe.

>>13370424
ZUN. He's literally the god of gods.

Worship with booze and more booze.

>>13383225
ZUN as playable character when?

>>13383236
Every game. Every time you play you're in HIS playground using HIS children and HIS spell cards.

He's the creator (And if we make that stick these shitty threads end real fucking quick!)

>>13383225
What if Gensokyo is real and ZUN is a prophet

>>13383242
>Every time you play you're in HIS playground using HIS children and HIS spell cards.

Yes, when we play, we're using what he created.

I want to play AS ZUN, not as his creations.

>>13383244
The he needs to hand over a map as soon as possible.

>>13383225
ZUN is just the Kannushi-sama of the Hakurei shrine and everytime he talks about youkai he keeps some sort of distance. I doubt he's super strong.

>>13382944
Well, basically, an object without a physical form can't really collapse, so I don't see how it has an "eye" as a focus point.
Of course that ability works on immortals, but it's not like it would ever kill them. It's doubtful if even Yukari could get rid of them, since the Hourai grants so much more than what is classically seen as being immortal.
And to me, power over Eternity seems like leagues above simple time manipulation, even if it is kinda vague.
Danmaku difficulty doesn't matter, I personally found Kaguya harder on Lunatic mode.

As for Yuyuko, I always thought it was just "Invitation to Death", but in that case, I guess Yuyuko's power is kind of broken.

>>13382963
>big difference
Not really. To measure that you need some kind of clearly defined power scales, since power and strength are not some solid unshakable labels that define everything, unless we're talking about almighty gods.
Fights obviously would come along because they show and help understand strength the best.

What would happen if Furandooru used her destroy ability on Youmu?

And don't forget they have special weapons too, like Youmu or the moonbitches themselfs
That makes a big difference.

Look at Miko, when you read ''hear 10 peoples at once'' It's complete useless, but she has an crazy sword and cool cape that make her whole strong

It's impossible to make powerlevel rank just by abilities

>>13385633
That's a great question actually...
One half definitely would instantly kick the bucket, but would the other half continue to exist or not...

>>13385865
Can Yoom reconstitute herself from either half?

If we consider canon, the strongest 2hu is more confusing than you all make it seem.

Eiki can't into god-tier, since her power is limited towards specific mortal beings. So say you're Medicine, you don't need to worry much about Judge Judy coming at you. If you're Marisa, you should worry.

Yukari, a pretty over-powered Youkai. Although, people over-estimate her ability on borders. There are restrictions and also consider her personality, that seems rather lazy. Her real strength lies mostly in her knowledge in strategy and mathematics/physics, using those to gain an edge in battle. However, despite the great strength, she can still be defeated in battle.

Flandre and many others, in terms of powerlevel, have debatable legitimacy considering said Tengu who wrote the interviews also are hook-nosed manipulators of truth. Not to mention the mental ignorance she has considering her own powers, it's better to take the literal EoSD cards as her real power. Remember, Remilia is stronger than Flandre, and Remilia isn't exactly a Yorihime.

1/2

2/2
>>13385921
And to just add, regarding deaths in Touhou. When people argue about deaths (aside from Yukarifags who mention the gaps constantly), death in Touhou is not like death in real life. Yuyuko, Mima, Kana, Youmu, Scarlets (if we consider vampires as undead, which you're required to die first before becoming one), Youkai Jesus, Miko, etc. are all characters who by all means actually died. However, despite being dead, they are still around. It's certain powers involving instant death or speeding an instant or all that stuff has little to no effect on these people, since they already died.

TL;DR all 2hus are too vague to have specific ratings that are in the same accuracy as ZUN intended them to be. Every waifuist of a certain 2hu will imply their 2hu's ability is certainly absolute while others have limits. Either way, to prevent certain bullshit to happen, like Yukari just gaping your limbs and organs apart like some that one time Bruno fought Giorno in Vento Aureo, or Medicine to go too far and be a literal Purple Haze, or NEET being an embodiment of GER, this agreement of rules was established for a fair opportunity for each contestant to have a chance to win a battle.

So if we consider spell card rules and fair play, IF she actually put effort into fighting in general, Yukari would be a good option for the winner, due to danmaku being a sport that challenges power and strategy. Reimu and Marisa as well have a shot, due to their protag plot-armor that involves their great quick-thinking skills in battle (such as to avoid over-flamboyant danmaku which would seem difficult to beat).

If we consider moon bitches into account here, personally, rating them for skills in the rules may be hard, but seeing as they did a pretty good job in SSiB, I would not doubt they also have the capability of winning.

These are just my thoughts, however, and you could just ignore them to continue defending your waifu. Let's just keep things at an open-minded mentality.

>>13385921
>Eiki can't into god-tier, since her power is limited towards specific mortal beings. So say you're Medicine, you don't need to worry much about Judge Judy coming at you. If you're Marisa, you should worry.
>since her power is limited towards specific mortal beings.

[citation needed] Yes, her judgy stick relies on one's sins, but that's not the only weapon she has. To not talk about she's the elite among the elite in her job.
Also she's know for being able to deal with Yuyuko, Yukari and Reimu at the same time. Reminder Yuyuko is considered pure, so the whole "based on your sins" logic falls down. The fact she won't attack unless she has a very good reason is another whole matter.

>Remember, Remilia is stronger than Flandre, and Remilia isn't exactly a Yorihime.
How so? Remilia may have experience but Flandre's raw power is just that strong, otherwise Reim wouldn't have used her to blow up the meteorite.

>Youmu
She's not dead, she's even known for aging slower than humans, but she will die for good one day.

>Scarlets
They're immortal in the sense they will never die of old age since they traded their puberty for eternal life. They should be exterminable (in the FS sense) though. (Not sure though)

>Youkai Jesus
She never died, she just went full black magic after seeing his brother die. Her death->resurrection isn't cited anywhere.

>Miko
She lived again because of that tricky procedure, if you killed her normally she'll probably just die, specially since she isn't a youkai like Byakuren that can respawn as long people believe in her. To not talk about hermits get frequently hunted by kishins.

I can agree with the rest and the powerlevels being way too vague to sperg all over them though.

>>13385921
Well, people in general seem to overestimate Flandre's ability, but Flandre is still crazy in terms of raw power, just laevatein alone is no joke.
Remilia probably is better at fighting than Flandre due to not being locked up for so long, but that's it. And noone seems to know exactly how "Manipulation of Fate" works, it doesn't even seem certain that Remilia herself knows. Maybe it would be hax-level power if Remi could fully use it, or not, since it's a really abstract concept in comparison to just destruction.

It's true though that Tengu aren't known to be the most truthful people at times.

>>13386363
>And noone seems to know exactly how "Manipulation of Fate" works, it doesn't even seem certain that Remilia herself knows. Maybe it would be hax-level power if Remi could fully use it, or not, since it's a really abstract concept in comparison to just destruction.
Remilia is chuuni. CHUUUUNIIII. According to Flan in BAiJR, she just made up a signature power that sounded cool.

>>13386073
>[citation needed]

PoFV quotes from Komachi.

Komachi: Fairies and phantoms exist in a similar fashion. That's why you have no life span. (towards Cirno)

Komachi: It's no fun looking at someone with no life span...Then again, am I working as a shinigami 'cause it's fun? (towards Lyrica/Merlin/Lunasa)

Komachi: Another one without a lifespan. That means another one who has not yet been born, does it? (towards Medicine)

Komachi: Maybe it's because the lifespan of youkai is ever-so-changing. You might die tomorrow, or you might die after a hundred thousand years. (towards Yuuka)

Although this isn't Eiki herself speaking, this is the one working the Sanzu River, and seems to be responsible of knowing death time. For certain Youkai, it seems, they've always been dead, it just associated to phantoms, never exactly born and possibly meant to never taste judgement.

Komachi: There are two kinds of shrine maiden in this world; ones who live extremely long and ones who live extremely short. (towards Reimu)

So, through what we've seen here, humans naturally have the ability to be seen this way. Now, despite all these quotes supporting the idea, Eiki still does talk about judgement towards them. So, it could just be intimidation to conform to their roles in life or Komachi is just an incompetent shinigami.

Let's also mention other afterlife zones in Touhou. According to the ending for Phantom Team in IN, Yuyuko wanted to poison Eirin to have her as some form of servitude, this suggests whatever she kills essentially becomes her possession. In short, Eiki is useless in battle and her ability seems to only work towards some people, at the time of their death, if Yuyuko didn't take them, it seems.

>>13386363
This guy >>13386436 has a point here. Again, sources from Shameimaru are always manipulated truths, so it's doubtful Remilia actually holds such ability. Her speed and power is not to be under-estimated, however.

>>13371107
I would say that she is a special case. She probably can't use her powers on anyone who isn't dead and being judged.

It's not that she can but won't. They straight up don't work.

>>13386538
Akyuu does also state Remilia having this ability, but unless Akyuu have felt these effects of fate disruptions she's talking about herself, it may be that she have been influenced by rumors (or Remilia herself?).

>>13386544
Or if someone attacks her. She needs to be able to complete her delivering judgement, so she is given the power to overcome anything that would impede her duty to apply punishment to the judged.

>>13386579
Where'd you find that conclusion?

>>13386596
Her power is the ability to hand down any judgement passed down by heaven.
It'd be very silly if she couldn't defend herself or have the ability to actually carry out that punishment.

I haven't read through the whole thread, but are we basing this strictly on ZUN's Gensokyo? Since there are an infinite number of Gensokyos, doujin works are valid as well.

>pic related and pretty thought-provoking

>>13386073
>Reminder Yuyuko is considered pure, so the whole "based on your sins" logic falls down.
Where is this cited?

Also speaking of Eiki, judgement, death and characters who are "already dead" or considered immortal. It doesn't really fall into place. I mean, Shiki exists as the Buddhist conception of Yama, right? So her very existence proves that things work the way that the Buddhists have explained. And yet, you have those characters who seem to be immortal and indestructible... which directly and fundamentally contradicts the aforementioned way things work. Which means that something, somewhere is wrong.
Also, people aren't judged according to "sins" since this isn't an Abrahamic system. But again in the light of what I wrote, Yuyuko can't be judged due to another reason.

>>13386579
How does she sentence people who aren't dead again?

>>13386605

>>13386611

>>13386608
She sentences people who aren't dead to punishment by being passed down a judgement from heaven. She generally doesn't (or shouldn't) go around looking for people to punish for their sins (as encoded in some celestial code of law.)

Now a better question is: is attacking the Yama a sin?

>>13386620

>>13386604
Have you played Phantasmagoria of Flower View?

>>13386628

>>13386631

>>13386639

So basically, if Gensokyo is a place of laws, Reimu is Judge Dredd.

>>13386630
I have.
She carries out the punishments of heaven, after reading their sins with her ability to judge any behavior as good or evil as like black and white. This usually involves beating them with her stick of punishment or whatever the proper name is for a duration proportional to their sins. That doesn't mean that she's powerless outside of her ability to apply judgement.

>>13386621
Heaven was never mentioned in Eiki's official profiles. What is "heaven" in this instance anyway? IRL it denotes many things from "the way things are" to a Chinese celestial bureaucracy run by the Jade Emperor to an actual antique Chinese concept of monotheistic God.

>is attacking the Yama a sin?
According to which system?

>>13386651
Heaven is more of a metaphor. There's a celestial law that Shiki Eiki follows, and it has punishments for sins. Shiki Eiki didn't make the laws, she just pases judgement.

>According to which system?
The system that Shiki Eiki judges by.

>>13386621
>Now a better question is: is attacking the Yama a sin?

I would assume that attacking a judge of the underworld would result in some heavy penalties.

>>13386648

Unfortunately I only have this doujin saved as "Touhou Koumakyou 01 - Hakurei Reimu" which is of no help at all.

>>13386650
Her story involves re-educating the cast of PoFV the talks she gave to them, in which they forgot due to not caring.

After defeating people in VS Mode, she just gives advice for later actions. All she does is preach.

Also, consider Lunarians, people responsible in some way to cause the birth of Youkai on Earth. Some beings just have more power/authority over others. Eiki is nothing.

>>13386663
Some people think this one's over the top, but I really enjoyed it.

>>13386655
>There's a celestial law that Shiki Eiki follows, and it has punishments for sins. Shiki Eiki didn't make the laws, she just pases judgement.
Yeah, so it rather refers to the way things are.

>The system that Shiki Eiki judges by.
This should be the Dharma, for all intents and purposes, but there is no explicit confirmation.
If that's the case, attacking any sentient being is bad karma in itself, regardless of the circumstances. There is no such thing as "sin" as understood in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic sense.

>>13386674
>Also, consider Lunarians, people responsible in some way to cause the birth of Youkai on Earth. Some beings just have more power/authority over others.
That was a side effect of the Moon's light, not Lunarian authority.

>>13386674
>All she does is preach
Well, almost all of them outside of the Hourai Immorrtals are destined to be hers eventually. They WILL face judgement someday.

Besides, she's not on the job in her story or in versus mode, she's on a work break. Why would you do work during your break?


>>13386681
I'm aware that there's no real 'sin', but she still judges you for your rightful and wrong deeds. Attacking the Yama is a Wrong deed under that interpretation.

>>13386688
Like I said, attacking any sentient being is a wrong deed from a Buddhist Dharmic point of view.
Whether it's a worse deed than attacking a human is another matter, we can only speculate.

>>13386699
I agree. We just can't know.

>>13386679
It's really cool because it examines the nature of Gensokyo. Reimu isn't powerful because of her own abilities per se, but because of how Gensokyo made her.

I have a serious weakness for Touhou battle manga.

>>13386706
I finally found this one in English... I'm so happy...

http://www.nyaa.se/?page=view&tid=661006

>>13386713
Neat. Got to find more of this.

>>13386363
>And noone seems to know exactly how "Manipulation of Fate" works, it doesn't even seem certain that Remilia herself knows.
It's literally as this >>13386436 Flandre has stated it in official material Remi is simply chuu2 and does it because it sounds cool. There is no reason to believe Flan is lying, she is extremely perceptive and doesn't really care for appearances making her quite blunt.

This is actually backed up by nearly every depiction of Remi being a showoff, enjoying attention and putting appearances before everything else. Even Sakuya has not so subtly dropped hints that she likes making fun of Remi with a occasional prank or feign of ignorance because of her showiness and chuu2 tendencies.

>>13386576
I've forgotten where but its stated even Akyuu's profiles of the youkai have to be taken with a grain of salt. She actually gets visits from featured youkai in her records occasionally wanting her to spice up the article or make them sound cooler.

>>13386818
>muh Charisma with a capital C

As someome new to Touhou can someone explain the power levels to me relatively?

How do powerful characters like Yukari and Flandre match up against against characters like Noien and Kiss-Shot

>>13386872
What's kissshot's power again?

Why compare them with other fictional characters?
We'd run into the same problem of not being able to rank them relative to things we understand.
We should be comparing them to real people.
Yukari is probably about as strong is Jake the Snake. Flan is a bit higher than that, but still a bit behind Lesnar.

Demonbane is the Strongest 2hu.

>>13386915
not 2hu

>>13386913
Professional wrestlers don't really count. They should be measured against real combat sportsmen, like boxers or aikidoka.

>>13386915
You spelled Alf wrong.

>>13386926
But you can't measure aikidoka and boxers are too limited due to weight and such restrictions.
No, just ditch the martial artists idea altogether. It's too different from how 2hu works. Wraslin' is actually closer.

>>13386909
Immense physical strength, can jump from continent to continent.

Create working copies of anything including unique magical items out of her flesh and bone.

Instantaneous perfect regeneration.

Bunch of other random shit like ability to change her appearance, time travel and walk on ceilings.

At canon stuff sakuya keep getting defeated by the same trick ever

when will she learn

>>13386942
Do you think we should make all the touhous in 2K15 and let that be the judge. I think it's the most fair way.

>>13379195
she should be in 14.5
her special skill would make the time counter become 0
shit would be awesome

Individual power is useless, this is why lunarians are superior. They figure out what makes men strong, the technology.

Rabbits with magic guns are gonna beat all youkai with outdated weapons.

And this is why Reisen the Rabbit can beat all the master danmaku in spell card.

>>13386872

Touhou powers range from useless/mundane(some even to the point that you wouldn't want the power because of some kind of backlash like not being able to see) to god mode reality warpers of all shapes and sizes.

>>13386994
Nitori a weak

>>13387001
Nitori a BEST.

>>13387001
Nitori is the airsofter/gear queer. Notice how she always uses toy-like weapons.

Reisen is the real motherfucking deal.

>>13386970
Seems reasonable

>>13387001
Money is power.
And we know how kappas are when it comes to money.

>>13387013
What happened to that touhou wrestling 4koma?
It was a really exciting read.
Suwako is way too OP though.

>>13375080
This is shinki

>>13387033
Yeah.
The only feat Mima has in pc98 is that she (probably) taught Marisa magic, so I guess Mima could be just abit above Marisa in terms of power, maybe.
That and she broke Reimu's seals or some shit.

>>13386605
>Since there are an infinite number of Gensokyos, doujin works are valid as well.
Now that's just crazy.

>>13386872
It's in the nature of youkai to lie about their powers to sound more powerful or confuse their enemies. Plus if their powers are too strong they're not allowed to use them. This adds up to make the whole issue very confusing.

Yukari might be able to cut people in half with gaps, who knows, but she never does that. In-story her gap powers are useful mainly for intelligence gathering rather than combat.
Not that Yukari is any slouch at conventional combat. She can throw around a lot of raw magical energy, her spell cards are ruthlessly efficient in design, and Meiling says that punching her is like punching a brick wall.

>>13387665
>and Meiling says that punching her is like punching a brick wall.
funny, rinnosuke said the opposite when he hit her with a mace.

>>13387706
Yukari can harden/soften at will?

>>13387665
>to lie about their powers to sound more powerful or confuse their enemies
That sounds normal. Common sense!

>>13387710
Only dicks

>>13388350
Yukari is a dick!?

please, it's fairly clear that the most powerful 2hu is none other than mokou. only mokou is strong enough to wear pants.

>>13388461
>only Mokou is strong enough to wear pants
I love Mokou, but there's also Wriggle who wears pants.
and whatever the hell Murasa is wearing. Is it a skirt, is it shorts?

By the way, come to think of it.
I know she's been mentioned already, but shouldn't Shinki be really in the top echelon?
She doesn't have the insane destructive power as Flan or Yuuka or the physical strenght of Yuugi, BUT if I'm not mistaken, she's the only Touhou capable of (humanoid-ish) life.
She created Makai and everything in it, including Mai, Yuki, Alice, Yumeko and even Sariel, an Angel of Death.
Maybe only the Dragon God can create life as well, but from my knowledge no other of the gals can. And let's be honest, the ability to create life is quite damn powerful. Theoretically she could overrun Gensokyo with an army of Youkai she created. Not without serious resistance of course, but theoretically... Zerg rushes do work sometimes after all.

>>13370565

PMiSS Basically states that not only can Yukari fundamentally undermine the concepts that make up reality, but also that she can instantly create or destroy realms exactly like Gensokyo.

>>13388815
PMiSS was edited by Yukari.

It's her approved fiction.

And Yukari stole her Gensokyo barrier idea from the Moon capital anyway.

>>13388796
Probably, if she wasn't pc98 only.
She seems to have a fair amount of destructive power too, like when she (apparently) destroyed the surroundings in the final phase of her fight.

>>13389082
I'm one of those fags that counts PC98 as canon. Frankly, I see the split between PC98 and Windows canon as kinda stupid, but that's my cup of tea and I don't want to spark a discussion about that matter here.

Well, she's a god after all, so of course she has a lot of destructive power, just not as much as, say, Yuuka or Flandre.

>>13388796
>capable of (humanoid-ish) life.
Holy crap, I really should read what I write before I post it.
>capable of creating humanoid life.
fixed it.

>>13388815
>she can instantly create or destroy realms exactly like Gensokyo
It never says this. "Whenever she desires" is more like "she can do so freely" rather than something like she can effortlessly create pocket universes or whatever. Moreover there are several instances of Yukari displaying limitations, never mind that she likely didn't construct the Barrier single-handedly.

The line you're referring to might be more straightforwardly put as "In other words, one could say that with the mere existence of the youkai of boundaries, it's possible for places like Gensokyo to be created and destroyed". Combined with the line before it, it's talking about how since it's the boundary that the Barrier forms that logically defines Gensokyo, a youkai that can control boundaries should be able to define these sorts of spaces. It isn't a statement on the extents of Yukari's abilities.

>>13386915
>Anything in the name of justice and that can't stand evil is Demonbane
>Shiki Eiki is the Yama and therefore judges injustice and evil
>Yamaxanadu IS Demonbane

>>13389092
And I agree, to an extent. PC98 had its fair share of interesting characters.
It's also hard to tell if "Devils Recitation" is supposed to imply that Shinki is canon or ZUN just did it for the laughs.

>>13386970
Be careful what you wish for anon, given I'd really love to see one anon do a full Touhou Wrestlemania with the CAW just to settle whose strongest once and for all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm3fGwTgcr8

>>13388769
Boypants.

>>13389172
Hm... as we all know, Shinki is the mistress of Makai and Byakuren was sealed away in Makai. So, in my theory, it is highly likely that Shinki took care of Byakuren herself as to keep her in check (peaceful as she might be, Byakuren is a damn strong character). They befriended each other and Shinki taught her her signature move. I don't think that ZUN did it for the laughs (actually, quite a few fans were butthurt about the fact that Devil's Recitation is a blatant rip-off of Shinki's move) but as a present and thank you to those long-lasting fans that love the PC98 canon. Mind you, that's my theory.
Is Shinki Canon... extended Canon maybe, same as Mima. IIRC Reimu referenced a "great evil that once tried to take over the Shrine" in CoLA. Furthermore, Marisa can use Orries Sun in IaMP and SWR which looks a lot like one of Mima's moves and lastly, she appears on Akyuu's Untouched Score Vol.4's cover, which was released in 2007, 9 years after Mima's last official appearance.

Does that mean Shinki and Mima are canon? Hell if I know, but for me they somewhat are.

>>13389160
It would certainly explain why she's so much more ridiculously powerful than all the other 2hus.

>>13389160
Where's Nyarly then?

>>13370424
Yuuka because Ultimate Magic.

>Three-eyed Yama, Lord of Death, grips the world between teeth and claws as the wheel grinds tirelessly through its endless cycles
Yama just doesn't give a shit about any soul in particular

Why do you autists never compare the difficulty of their patterns in the games instead of going by the shit plot and dialog?

>>13390441
Except the soul of the person they marry, if they can marry.

Where did east get the influence of a cycle of life/reincarnation? And where did the west get the idea of one go, and no more?

Is it possible to die on your own terms and avoid judgement completely in 2huverse?

>>13386538
That's why too much of a slippery slope.
Yes, they will never meet judgment, but while Eiki will only attack for that reason, it doesn't mean she can't beat the shit out of them if there was an actual reason.

It's like saying cops are weak fucks because they can't shoot to death good people.

>>13390475
Only if you're somebody of the Abrahamic faith or Atheist

>>13390488
And forgot to add, we know officially Eiki can beat Yuyuko so that kind of logic falls down with just this.

>>13390492
Eiki was the one who also gave Yuyuko her job.

Fuck your spellcards, I can punch danmaku.

>>13390503
Touma?

>>13370424
Me.

>>13390457
Because pattern difficulty is both subjective and doesn't tell all that much about their real power (remember Yuyuko stage 1?).

>>13390463
>Where did east get the influence of a cycle of life/reincarnation? And where did the west get the idea of one go, and no more?
Both ideas (and more) existed under elaborate philosophical forms at least as far back as the Buddha's time in India. Furthermore the ideas themselves had many variations, rebirth in Buddhism isn't the same as reincarnation in Hinduism for example. Most Asian countries went on to adopt the Buddhist explanation, but some modified it slightly because they had problems accepting no soul, no self concepts (this was the case in Japan).

Now as for where these systems themselves sprang up, it depends on your faith. The Buddhists say that those advanced enough in the path will actually come to know the cycle of rebirth as a fact in their very lives.

>>13390475
AFAIK no.

>>13390361
Take your pick, either one qualifies.

If you guys think Shiki is so strong then why is she always one of the weakest in fangames?

>>13390903
Dunno. Irony? People not actually reading the books?

Reimu can defeat any other 2hu without a worry, and Shiki Eiki can crush Reimu like an insect, though.

>>13370424
Better question is which 2hu in canon would make a good wife?

>>13390956
Seiga

>>13390956
Ran, handsdown.

>>13390903
She only acts if she has the reason and authority to.

>>13390965
Didn't Seiga have a family and children before faking her death, and running to Japan to teach Taoism to Miko, and search for her father?

Doesn't seems top wife material.

>>13390903
What fangames?
In CtC she would be one of the "strongest", since stage 4-6 is main path only.

>>13391223
She's not called the 'Wicked Hermit' for nothing, all the side material have made it pretty explicitly clear Seiga Kaku is one of the few true evil 2hou's in the series.

Most just simply orientate more towards chaotic rather than evil.

>>13390956
Futo was also married

>>13391387
>Futon was also married
[Citation Heavily Needed]

>>13391302
I thought Seiga got the title evil hermit because she practices necromancy (Which isn't a big deal to the west), and do thin f s to benefit her personally than the group/community (Which she doesn't belong to any.)

ninetailed fox are the strongest youkai in the japanese folclore, Yukari has one as shikigami (and a lot of others like demons) so she should be fucking powerfull herself...

>>13391760
>he didn't pay attention in japanese history class

the strongest in gensokyo is clearly buront-san. truly, he is in a class of his own.

>>13391760
>I thought Seiga got the title evil hermit because she practices necromancy (Which isn't a big deal to the west), and do thin f s to benefit her personally than the group/community (Which she doesn't belong to any.)
Thats only half of it.

It's also been shown that despite having long reached the level of ability needed to become a celestial she's unable to do so because she is evil by nature. She could help people but does absolutely nothing with her powers other than screw with people.

Reminder this is the 2hou with a canon ZUN story about her robbing kids of their toys and regular people of their valuables whilst dressed as Santa Claus and selling them back to them.

>>13391760
>Which isn't a big deal to the west
Rathma pls go