/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>touhou
>artificial difficulty
let me tell ya about touhou

>>10487815
So I just ended the game 12.8 "Touhou Sangetsusei"

Do they show some argument between Cirno and the three fairies or it ended like I saw, with nothing ?

Max rank Remilia.

>>10487812
Touhou itself is not artificial difficulty, but Orin is. The game teaches you to shoot at everything that moves, and then when you do that in her stage and on her boss fight, you die.

I don't understand why people play Touhou.

It's a bullet hell, right. There's lots of bullet hell games. Lots of bullet hell games with better bullet hell gameplay than Touhou. Lots of harder ones, lots of easier ones.

So that's not why people play it. It has to be some other factor. It's certainly not for the girls/art, because that's horrendous.

Is it just to fit in, at the end of the day?

>>10487873
That has been around forever, you need to be prepared for anything!

>>10487884
The point is the game punishes you for doing what it taught you to do. That's bad design, there's no reason to punish the player for doing what you told them to do.

>>10487881
Popularity, game mechanics.

>>10487789
Look! Someone is in love!

Good that I happened to save this... It might be of your interest.

>artificial difficulty

I am vaguely aware this is some kind of /v/ meme, but I don't quite understand what the term is supposed to mean.

Given the place of origin, meaningless buzzword until proven otherwise.

>>10487881

new and exciting post dude, you're really bringing out some original points here

>>10487881
Nice music and the games has that "feel" too them.

>>10487905

Get the fuck back to your board. You do not belong here and never will.

>>10487886
>>10487873

>The point is the game punishes you for doing what it taught you to do.

No it doesn't. Fuck, Parsee's second spell teaches you that some things are hazardous to shoot at.

The whole point of spell cards is learning how they work and defeat them in the neatest way possible with the least amount of work. They are like a puzzle in a way. If all you do is stay at the middle of the screen hoping you'll kill her before you die of course you'll lose. Countless spells in the series have specific mechanics which requires specific skills and maneuvers to be beaten nicely. It's not the game's fault if your head was too tick to realize that.

>>10487905
>Given the place of origin, meaningless buzzword until proven otherwise.
I'm not using artificial difficulty as a meme, Orin is actually artificially difficult, because all she does is punish you for shooting things, in a game where you are encouraged through postive reinforcement to shoot things. It's a result of bad design.

>>10487815
the compression artifacts! IT BURRRNNSS!

>>10487921

Holy fuck. The crossboard aura is strong on this post.

>>10487909
Did anyone say that Touhou was good?

>>10487909
Every word is a meme by definition. Whatever you're using it for, the problem is its lack of discernible meaning.

And a game making you think about what you're doing is not bad design by any means.

>>10487921
You don't get to 999 KB, 999x999 without making sacrifices.

>>10487931

Yes, someone said that.

>>10487932
>And a game making you think about what you're doing is not bad design by any means.
There are ways to do that without fucking the player over for doing what they've been trained to do.

>>10487934
Well tell him that he might be misguided.

>>10487939

See >>10487908

>>10487908
And to compensate for that Parsee's second spell is braindead easy to dodge. And besides, something like that never comes up again until the clusterfuck of stage 5.

>Countless spells in the series have specific mechanics which requires specific skills and maneuvers to be beaten nicely
Name 10 which are more than just "dodge and shoot."

>>10487955
Sure, if you want to go as vague as possible, all shmup mechanics ever can be reduced to "dodge and shoot".

life is BORING AS FUCK

it's just 'move atoms, read result'

so simple

>>10487973
Okay, I worded that wrongly. Name 10 that has some weird gimmick that never appears again.

>>10487955
>>10487973

I can defeat all of Orin's spells by "dodging and shooting". The magic of it is how you should do it. A few examples of unique spells that popped in my mind are:

TD's Yoshika spells that you have to mind for her HP regen and destroy the familiars
All the survival spells throughout the series
Shou's Laser cross
Utsuho's final which is one of the only spells in the series that messes around with the movement of the player
More than half of Mokou's spells which have very tricky patterns and specific ways that you have to dodge

Etc.

Besides, Orin is an actual boss you know. The majority of games change things in boss fights, you can't expect to beat them the same way you do in stages. A smart player would start firing at Orin's fairies, realize that it isn't working well and he would, you know, stop shooting at the fairies. It takes about 4-5 seconds for a decent new player to be able to realize that, which is more than enough to change strategies and try to beat her in another way.

>>10487986

5 is 'countless' to you? You're really shitty at counting.

>>10487987

>>10487987
If all you do is try to do small dodges and shoot without trying to figure out a card, a lot of StB and DS cards become much, much, much harder.

>>10487986
>A smart player would start firing at Orin's fairies, realize that it isn't working well and he would, you know, stop shooting at the fairies.
And then the fairies shoot at you anyway, and they're chasing you around the screen preventing you from shooting Orin.

>>10487996
Circle throughout the screen like a retard, or bait them to a corner of the screen.

I completely agree that orin is bullshit, but more because her spellcards are an amalgam of what you'd expect to find in the hand of last spell EX stages. Punishing you for shooting things? That's happened since EoSD cirno stage, not counting PC-98. "Artificial difficulty" comes from bad design and a necessity to make the game seem longer than what it truly is. Just because Orin is a pain in the ass doesn't mean she has "artificial difficulty".

>>10487996

Now you really outdone yourself.

Protip: the fairies don't shoot.

Have you tried another approach, perhaps circling around them?

>>10488006
yes they do. If you don't shoot at them for a while they will chase you and start spawning bullets.

>>10488013

No they don't. Unless it takes about 15 seconds for them to start doing it, if so I've never seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?featu=player_detailpage&v=sH0Ls6f0ZUM#204s

>>10488024
I just played the stage again, and yes they do. It's nowhere near the rate they spawn if you don't shoot them, but they do spawn bullets if you dont kill them.

>>10488051

Well I won't contest that since I can't verify it now, but since the bullets are most likely aimed so I'm sure that simple streaming can do the trick just fine, not to mention the ample time you have before they actually start shooting. The point is that there are others solutions besides mindlessly firing at them, and a smart player who would be aware that a boss would have different mechanics and would at try different things.

>>10487909
>I'm not using artificial difficulty as a meme, Orin is actually artificially difficult, because all she does is punish you for shooting things, in a game where you are encouraged through postive reinforcement to shoot things. It's a result of bad design.
I don't see it. Shooting her or not does the same thing to me. Which spellcard are you talking about ?

I'm still trying to figure out what the fuck 'artificial difficulty' is.

>artificial difficulty

As far as I can gather, this is some tvtropes epic meme casuals use to describe complicated game mechanics outwith their skill level.

"Artificial" difficulty, lol. Games are difficult or easy, end of story. Stop being a faggot. Janitor, make yourself useful and ｄｅｌ this shit already.

>>10488244
>>10488246
Perfectly timed post. So I guess I can replace 'artificial difficulty' with 'I have no idea what the fuck it is I am talking about.'

>>10488246
Randomness is really the only form of ``artificial difficulty'' because you need luck to get past it even with prior knowledge. Anything else is just a predictable part of the game, and although it can definitely be a pain (and bad design) to have to repeat a few hours of a game because something that the game never indicated would happen screwed you over, that's not artificial difficulty. It's very annoying, though.

>>10488288
>because you need luck to get past it even with prior knowledge.

So it's difficulty based on chance/randomness, which is really just difficulty based on reflexes, or if you really have to have some dipshit buzzword it's what casuals would call "cheap".

"Artificial difficulty" reeks of nerds trying to sound smart.

>>10488288

>Randomness is really the only form of ``artificial difficulty'' because you need luck to get past it even with prior knowledge.

Not when you can tip the odds to your favor. If randomness was such a bad thing poker wouldn't be played competitively.

>>10488302
>>10488309
I meant randomness as in there's some random chance of losing no matter how well you're doing. As long as you can win somehow no matter what it's not artificial difficulty, but like I said, it can still be bad design.

>>10487987
This one is pretty unique too

>>10488325

>randomness as in there's some random chance of losing no matter how well you're doing.

So it's a broken/shit game. Nothing "artificial" about that dude, it just sucks.

That's not what artificial difficulty means, /v/-kun

>>10488349

> Puri-t/a/n

What? Why? No. Go away.

>>10488352

First two results for "artificial difficulty" are TVtropes and GameFAQs. GJ faggot. A broken game is a broken game. Stop inventing retarded terms to describe the obvious.

I wanna be the guy is artificially difficult. Orin is not.

>>10488244
>this is some tvtropes epic meme

This literally explains everything.

I think "artificial difficulty" is used to describe difficulty that is either unexpected or seems thematically out of place, and seems bolted on after the fact.

For example, in a fighting game you are expected to be able to input complex inputs flawlessly to combo, and since it's expected few people would call that difficulty "artifical."

But if such a thing appeared in an otherwise bog-standard platformer at an unexpected point in time, where to execute a "super jump" you had to "623A623AA623AAA62398741B9B," people would complain that such a thing was stupid and artificial.

>>10488524
So I guess it would be "something that is difficult, but only because of an unnecessary and stupid gimimck."

>>10487789
Isnt artificial difficulty when a player gives themselves rules to play a game to make it harder? like nuzlocke or a 3 heart zelda run?

>>10488886

That's not how it's used on 4chan.

>>10488532
More like something that is difficult due to poor game design. There are masocore games that do it intentionally, like Eryi's Action.

>>10488244
No, artificial difficulty legitimately exists. For example, every single Touhoumon games that require you to grind for a stupid amount of time in order to beat the gym leaders the exact same way you would in the original games, just it takes longer to do now because everything has +7 levels.

>>10488911

So the remake is more difficult than the original. Get it? More difficult. Not "artificially" difficult.

>>10488915
Not having a natural difficulty progression is bad.

>>10488915
No you retard, it is not more difficult because the AI is still borderline mentally handicapped. It's artificial difficulty because all they do is jack the numbers up while keeping yours the same, and forcing you to grind for hours.

>>10488922

> all they do is jack the numbers up while keeping yours the same, and forcing you to grind for hours.

So it's "artificially difficult" because you have to play for longer than normal? What?

So either
(a) the game is more difficult
(b) you have to play for longer than usual ("grind for hours")

Still no need for your "artificial difficulty" bullshit. Seriously stop forcing this TVtropes retardation.

>artificial difficulty
Stop making excuses anon and get to grinding.

>>10487881
The music is pretty good, waifus, beautiful danmaku with a "2deep5me" hidden meaning, silly dialogues, and hard enough to be a fun challenge and not become an act of masochism.

And loli vampires.

>>10488922
>forcing you to grind

Nothing ever "forces you to grind" but your incompetence.

Now, there's nothing wrong with playing easy modo if you can't play hard. Just don't go all entitled about it. Grinding mechanics is good precisely because lowering difficulty comes at a cost.

>>10489039

This, so much.

People should realize that grinding most of the times is an option, not a requirement. You'd be surprised how many of us can actually tackle some games with low leveled characters.

>>10489034
>Stop making excuses anon and get to grinding.
Grinding is stupid and a way to artificially lengthen the game.

>>10489039
It's funny, because I'm positive I'm better than you at pokemon ans would sweep you if we played a set. I'm not bad at pokemon, I just recognize shit when I play it.

If you can't handle the heat don't descent into hell you fucking baddy.
This isn't your silly little cowaduty games where your objectives are being explained to you step by step.
If ZUN wants to challenge you like this you either suck it up and solve the puzzle or you go into a corner and cry

>>10489049

What you mean is that you can't handle the high levels so you assume grind is needed to get through the game, while people that know how to enjoy it takes it on without overleveling.

Gotcha.

>>10489049

>I'm positive I'm better than you at pokemon

Woah, this guy means business

>>10489121
>This isn't your silly little cowaduty games where your objectives are being explained to you step by step.
No one asked for this dipshit, but I'm saying its bad design to reward the player for doing something and then out of nowhere punish them for it.

>>10489144
Grind is needed to get through the game you fucking moron. If you don't grind, you'll be severely underleveled and you won't win.

>>10489172
No, it's called having good reflexes and knowing where things will go.

>>10489197
You are clearly uneducated. "Get gud scrub" is not an argument as to whether a certain part of a game is badly designed or not.

>>10489172
>If you don't grind, you'll be severely underleveled and you won't win.
So it's not artificially difficult than.

>>10489247
You said
>Grind is needed to get through the game you fucking moron. If you don't grind, you'll be severely underleveled and you won't win.
The entirety of the game != one card that 𝑦𝑜𝑢 aren't good at.

>>10489252
Yes it is. Jacking up numbers and not changing the battle system of the AI is artificial difficulty when it comes to RPGs.

>>10489265
>If you don't grind, you'll be severely underleveled and you won't win.
You said it yourself. Even if you jack up the numbers it's still the usual grinding.
But seriously, define artificial difficulty.

>>10489172
And I'm just saying that you probally have autism since you refuse to adapt to new situations

>>10489271
Artificial difficulty is when someone tries to make a game seem hard even though its not using for lack of a better term "cheap tricks" such as conditioning a player to do X and then without warning killing them for doing X in the same game.

>>10489277
So how is jacking up levels any close to that?

>>10489280
That was only one example. Jacking up levels is artificial difficulty because the enemy isnt actually hard, they just have better stats and you cant reach their level until you've spent a fuckload of time grinding.

Maybe I should have went with artificial lengthening for the grinding thing.

>>10489172
Except it didn't. You were simply supposed to do what you wanted as long as you were still alive, and adapt to situations as fit. For example, some bosses can't be hit during spellcards, and final boss' last spell card and extra bosses are immune to bombs. You're supposed to realize this and adjust.

In fact, if anything, Touhou is one of the few STG where you don't have to shoot at all. Complete pacifist runs are perfectly viable.

Have you ever played IN? That game required you to think about which style of shooting you do. Actually, didn't MoF and this game also make you keep some guage alive? And PoF also encouraged you to be selective about when you shoot as well, since you need to chain enemies at the right time to get higher scores and associated benefits.

>>10489283
>because the enemy isnt actually hard, they just have better stats and you cant reach their level until you've spent a fuckload of time grinding.
That could easily equal any Pokemon game, or any RPG for that matter. This is honestly the most stupid fucking argument I've ever seen in my life. You can't be serious, can you? Seriously? Right?

. . .I don't get it. For all that complaining about "and suddenly I'm not supposed to shoot at things?", remember the same thing happened in one of Yuugi's cards where it's easier not to shoot at the circley bullets until they explode, but instead leave them at a half-moon state. Stop bitching and get your game up. Are you going to complain about Youmu reducing your movement speed eventhough the whole game teaches you to dodge at normal speed? Are you going you going to complain about Sakuya stopping you from moving eventhough the whole game teaches you to move? How is it artificial difficulty when the game is asking you to do something different, for just one boss? Don't be so spoiled.

>>10489283
So basically, a boss has high stats and a higher level than you have, and you have to grind to defeat, but because the grinding takes a while, it's 'fake" difficulty?
wat

What thel hell?
Why do I have to shoot things now?
The first game taught me to deflect ying yang balls to defeat enemies.
Artificial difficulty

>>10489312
>Are you going to complain about Youmu reducing your movement speed eventhough the whole game teaches you to dodge at normal speed? Are you going you going to complain about Sakuya stopping you from moving eventhough the whole game teaches you to move?

This is different because the game is literally forcing you to do or not do something, it is taking away commands from you.

>>10489309
Imagine you're in town A. You get yourself into a sequence of fights that escalate, from lowly minions to the boss. You get access to town B and the same thing happens, with the lowly minions now considerably stronger to match with the experience you earned in town A. Then you reach town C and the monsters are fifty levels above your current level. There was no steady progression like you found before. You figuratively hit a brick wall. You can't get to town D without having to kill a million dogs in the town outskirts in order to level up and be a match to the enemies in town C.

I think this is what he meant when he talked about artificial difficulty. The game threw balance out the window and is forcing you to perform a menial task you had no need to perform before because the game mechanics were so that you had a logic buildup.

I don't consider it artificially difficult when the next boss is a couple of levels above the party or you have enough resources to guarantee the fight will be fair.

>>10487900
Thanks for the image, really. I can't beat her at all. This is the first time I have had so much trouble getting to the last level in a touhou game.

>>10489324
I literally hid at the bottom of the screen against one of Youmu's cards, which is what I do with most cards.

She literally cut me in half with her sword.

I literally learned that I shouldn't do that anymore.

>>10489412
Different guy. I cracked up laughing at your post. Thanks.

>>10488911
>No, artificial difficulty legitimately exists. For example, every single Touhoumon games that require you to grind for a stupid amount of time in order to beat the gym leaders the exact same way you would in the original games, just it takes longer to do now because everything has +7 levels.

That's not more difficult. It just takes longer. The amount of time something takes and how hard it is to do are two different things.

>>10489440
If turning on your computer required you to turn a crank 1,000 times, you would say it's difficult to do.

>>10489487
No, I would say that it was time consuming to do and frustrating to do.

>>10489487
What is, a crank?

>>10489510
It's like a handle-like thing that you have to turn. It was in old cars for rolling down windows.

>>10489516
Oh those, it doesn't seem all that bad. I like to think of it in a sexual way.

>>10489550
H-how?

>>10489564
No secrets please. ;-;

>>10489557
That's a secret! ♥

>>10489567
secret THIS!

>>10489580
;_;

>>10489583

>>10489588
So you won't tell me?

>>10489636
Nope! ♥

>>10489652
Why are you bullying me?

>>10489655
Because it feels so good.

>>10489658
>Nooo! Don't!
>You're making me feel good!

Now can you tell me?

>>10489658

>>10489662
Maaaaaybe~

>>10489668
Do you get off of bullying me? I-it's not like I'm enjoying it or anything okay?!

>>10489675
It just makes me feel so good and tingly!

>>10489686
That must feel pretty good. Now tell me the secret.

>>10489695
What secret?

>>10489697
Uh. What? Are you playing hard to get? Are you bullying me again?

Please don't roleplay here.

>>10489764
Please don't ruin their fun. It's cute.

>>10489764
I just want to know how that guy thinks of cranks lewdly. Very curious.

>>10489760
I ended up forgetting what the question was!

>>10489780
How do you think of cranks lewdly?

>>10489783
Oh~ That's because...
You know, I don't actually know why myself. They just seem so lewd! The way you grip them and move in them clockwise and counterclockwise... It's so erotic to me!

>>10489790
O-oh okay.

>>10489793
Well okie-dokie than!
I'm sleep so bye-bye!

>>10489799
G'night. Sweet dreams.

>>10489487
>>10489494