/jp/ - Otaku Culture

No, she's a Rei Mu silly

No, she's far from perfect. Canonically she's not a very good Shrine Maiden.

Hell no.

She's a bitch.

Fucking Zun is a mary sue

HELL no.

Why is she so perfect? And no, it's not because of Mary Sue, OP just has a case of anal autism.

One of her abilities removes her from reality so that nobody can touch her ever while she bombards them.

Oh I don't know.

I died VEEEERY many times while playing as her in Touhou, so I want to say no.

The Wiktionary defines ``Mary Sue'' as
> A fictional character, usually female, whose implausible talents and likeableness weaken the story.

Reimu is not fictional, so your argument is invalid.

No, that's the other player character.

Isn't Sakuya a bigger Mary Sue?

testing

Reimu looks podgy

I wouldn't call Reimu likeable, she's a huge asshole but that's her charm

>>10143213
Yes. She is perfect at extreminating youkai and has a quick wit, ready to answer to the letter anyone who talks to her. Yet she has the oh-so-silly quirk of being poor and having no donations!!

Between her and Marisa, I think I'd prefer Marisa. At least she is shallow and boring as all fuck. It feels like she's perfect to self-insert in the touhou world because she has no personality.

No, a Mary Sue is the perfect goody two shoes who beats everyone always.

Reimu is none of that personality-wise and most importantly she has lost.

>>10143340
Reimu has never lost in canon

>>10143356
You rang?

>>10143340
A mary-sue is someone who by normal standards can be considered perfect, yet has one or two quirks that make her on the level of a typical human being. Like the super popular, beautiful honors student and track team superstar that happens to be clumsy.

>>10143356
didn't she get OWNED in that one comic until she learned some god powers

test

test

>>10143356
Get a load of this secondary.

Reimu?

Perfect?

Holy fuck how secondary can you get.

She's a lazy, self-centered bitch, and not all that smart to boot. I mean, I love her and all, but fuck, man.

Even if you're too bad to play through the games at least read the official manga or something before you start saying retarded shit like that.

I think she isn't simply because she's not as popular in canon as she is portrayed in fanon. The whole "fight them, then have tea" thing is only for a surprisingly few bosses when you actually play the games, and she is trash talked all the time in the dialogue

Clearly Marisa is the Mary Sue.

>>10143456
Marisa can be anything you want her to be because she has no personality. People pair her up with so many other girls because Marisa has always been a vehichle for self-insertion.

Reimu and Marisa are nothing like Mary Sues
They're both thieves, self-centered, greedy, and arrogant.

>>10143435
How is this not perfect?

>>10143465
Define "personality". Marisa has a characteristic way of speech, characteristic likes and dislikes. The most common fandom mischaracterization of Marisa is the one where people turn her into a always grinning (she's usually always smiling, which is different) casanova. (which she plainly isn't)

>>10143465
I want to insert myself into Marisa

>>10143498
Move and I'll shoot!

er, I mean, Shoot and I'll move!

>>10143482
All of these are ``cute'' personality quirks. Next you're going to say Haruhi Suzumiya isn't a Mary Sue.

>>10143514
Of course she isn't a Mary Sue, she's God.

To be a mary sue you need to be likable. Which Reimu isn't.

>>10143519

>>10143514
Are you stupid

touhou doesn't even have a story

>>10143489
Perfect in the literal sense of the word.

Her being perfect for us doesn't mean the same perfect that the Mary Sue refers to.

>>10143519
Complete opposite, Mary Sues are never liked, and Reimu is liked.

>>10143521

My heart!

>>10143513
Marisa tease and lie to the people she fights. She obviously gets some kicks from getting people out of balance.

>>10143577

>>10143482
Other than that, Marisa worked her up to how powerful she is, noted by many characters. Reimu being the Hakurei Shrine Maiden, that's her free OVERPOWERED ticket. But even then, she couldn't even hurt anything directly until she trained, her morals are also jaded unlike a mary sue's.

>>10143577
This guy gets it.

>>10143582
This is a bit unclear. A Mary Sue is unreasonably loved by the other characters, and then hated by the audience.

Reimu is well liked by the other characters, but since this have reasons, it's not grating on the fans. So she's also well liked by the audience.

Of course, "Mary Sue" has been bastardized to mean "important character I don't like", so feel free to keep calling her that.

>>10143606
Reimu faces a fair bit of interpersonal conflict with the other characters.

>>10143606
No, a mary sue doesn't have to be liked by other characters, where did you get that from? A Mary Sue is just an invincible character who's perfect in every sense and is never beaten, eg: Arale.

>>10143618
that series turns me on a lot.

>>10143626
You're using the degenerated definition. Arale isn't a Mary Sue and can be defeated by "letting her batteries end". Invencible characters are just that: invencible characters. And by this definition, the closest the Touhou series have from "Mary Sues" are the Watatsukis.

>>10143628

let's see...

old Reimu had a sweet tooth, and while cheery was prone to get mad at things... not perfect and was canonically defeated a few times.

new Reimu is cranky, lazy as hell and is most of the time annoyed to do her job wich is to resolve incidents... and was canonically defeated a crapload of times...

no, reimu has the potential to be an absurdly strong and powerfull character but she is far from a Mary Sue.

also, anyone thinking marisa is such... let me remind you of how she relies oh so much on Kourin for advice... and most importantly, was canonically defeated by reimu.

Zun writes interesting characters, albeit neither is fully explored due to the short nature of the dialogues within games

>>10143366
Wait wait wait...

Is this by the author of Love and Peace?

If so I need to track this down!

>>10143628
>>10143699
Scummymaru needs to stay in her own thread.

>>10143618
link to it please? looks interesting

>>10143705
>was canonically defeated a few times.
you mean PC-98 Reimu?

>was canonically defeated a few times.

If so, by who?

>>10143713
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL474AEA7F69CC226D

watch it from the beginning.

watch everything.

>>10143712

>>10143718
WILL DO thank you

>>10143676
I'd like to add that if you just want to use "invincible" as measurement of a Sue, literally no characters in Touhou fall under that definitoin since disputes are handled by danmaku fights and actual power is completely ignored.

>>10143717
By mostly everybody else on the fighting games? SWR is written in a way that all the paths are "canon", they just happen at different times. And everybody there smacks Reimu around.

>>10143721
Was I not blunt enough?

>>10143726
But that's not old Reimu, that's new Reimu.

>>10143724
Watatsukis.

>>10143242
Good one, bud.

>>10143735
Watatsukis are invincible?

>>10143731
I'm not sure about old Reimu, but in CoLA Rinnosuke comments about how Reimu and Marisa are always fighting and how Reimu "usually" wins. If they do that since they knew each other, there's your old reimu losing (sometimes).

>>10143739
Well they were about to kill everyone until Marisa proposed doing a danmaku duel.

They still won despite being their very first duel.

>>10143739
Pretty much.

The reason they didn't show up in a game at all is because games have to be winnable.

>>10143739
It's a bit of a stretch to propose that they'll never lose a danmaku match. It's a fact that they have a perfect record in canon (if you ignore that the always delicate Sakuya had her knife on Yorihime's throat until Remilia told her to stop)

>>10143718
... what the fuck am I watching... and why the fuck is the artstyle so appealing!?

>>10143753
> (if you ignore that the always delicate Sakuya had her knife on Yorihime's throat

She would have probably also gotten out that too.

ZUN himself says they are too mary sue to be put in-game.

>>10143718
These need to be subbed very much.

>>10143753
Wouldn't that have made Sakuya the victor if she had gone ahead with it?

Doesn't that make her worse?

>>10143762
>>10143757
>>10143753

if you go by semantics you could argue that Reimu could get out of that spell since her power is ''flight'' in the sense of ''fly away from reality''.

ergo you could just do an asspull of yorihime summoning the time god or reality god or some bullshit, either way she'd win.

>>10143767
How come she never did that fly away from reality thing?

In my opinion, I think it's good that the cast lost to the Watatsukis. It sets up a sort of barrier or challenge or whatever you'd like to call it. If they had lost, it would've really damaged the characterization of the moon.

>>10143771
>How come she never did that fly away from reality thing?

she does.

remember Fantasy Heaven? the most OP spellcard ever that she never uses because it's an instant win.

>>10143242
>likeableness
Certainly not to the reader in most cases. Likeableness sounds like a false word.

>>10143776
I meant against the Watatsukis.

>>10143779
>that she never uses because it's an instant win.

>>10143782
The danmaku version of fantasy heaven has a time limit, so it can be won, and in fact IS won, when you play with the Vampire or the Magic team in IN. When it's all said and done, Flandre, Yukari, Mokou, Koishi and Nue can pull the "disappears and keep attacking thing" by different methods, so Fantasy Heaven isn't even something special.

>>10143776
You mean she never uses because it's a Last Word.

>>10143793
>The danmaku version of fantasy heaven has a time limit
I don't think time limits apply to the actual spellcards, Marisa says that it's impossible to beat in her book.

> and in fact IS won, when you play with the Vampire or the Magic team in IN.

???

Fantasy Heaven is a Last Word, dude, it doesn't happen during story mode.

>>10143801
The same book where she says they don't make unwinnable cards because this is against the spirit of the game?

>>10143805
hence why Reimu never uses it. also that's just marisa saying, what does she know.

maybe it's some sort of emergency measure.

>>10143809
Oh no I'm about to lose.

Oh wait, fantasy heaven.

That seems pretty 'boring protagonist' to me.

Like Tag Dream.

>>10143817
hence
why
she
never
uses
it

>>10143366
Speaking of Mary Sues...
The WatatSUEki Sisters, ladies and gentlemen.

>>10143817
>Like Tag Dream.

People are still butthurt about Reimu legitimately beating the shit out of the cheating ass Marisa and her team? Hahaha.

>>10143823
They got humbled by a ditsy ghost and an old hag with a thousand year grudge.

>>10143832
all they did was prank them.

yukari shat her pants when toyo popped in. the sisters also beat yukari and her army some centuries ago.

>>10143836
You're missing the point I think.

Yukari enabled someone with the power over death to enter into the grand city of the Moon. She could've just said 'fuck it' and killed everything off en masse.

>>10143838
>She could've just said 'fuck it' and killed everything off en masse.
yuyuko wouldnt do that

>>10143838
where is it stated she can kill everyone?

why didn't she kill reimu in PCB?

the watatsukis would just have pulled some bullshit like ''I SUMMON THE GOD OF DEATH HAHAHA YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME''.

if ZUN put Yuyuko in the games but not the watatsukis it means they are more mary sue than her.

>>10143757
>>10143750

>>10143841
She certainly has the ability to, though.

That's the important part, she pulled the rug over the Watatsuki's eyes pretty damn well and even mindfucked Eirin in the process.

>>10143827
"Being the Hakurei miko" is basically cheating.

>>10143849
Do spellcard rules allow her to just kill everything?

Remember, no spellcard rules on the moon.

>>10143836
You realize that Yukari wanted Toyohime to capture her and Ran, right. The whole thing was a ruse.

Of course winning the second "war" doesn't mean the Wakatsukis aren't invincible though.

It's also heavily implied and is nearly common knowledge that Yukari entered the capital with all the most powerful youkai because she knew they would all lose. Yukari on multiple occasions willingly admits that the Lunarians are daftly stronger than the youkai in Gensokyo, and then she uses that to her advantage.

>>10143854
>>10143827
Reading up the danbooru comments on every page was pretty damn hilarious.

Christ the analpocalypse was tremendous, especially at the end when Remilia notices that Reimu didn't even break a sweat or didn't even use half her power or something like that.

The original Mary Sue meaning was for fanfiction where some fan writes a self insert character that basically gets to live the dream, has super plot armor, all characters instantly like him, the plot is written to show off the character and he sort of gets many get out of jail free cards in situations where normally any other character would get fucked simply because the writer is self inserting hard with that character. For non fanfiction it could be like the writer's favorite character, the one that gets lucky all the time, everyone likes and seems like the author tries really hard to sell to the audience.
It's not merely about a character being really strong or loved alone.

>>10143865
we're talking power here, not tactical strategy.

>>10143869
Reading Danbooru comments makes me want to shoot something. I don't know why I do it. Astounding retards everywhere, and in a different way from the regular YouTube cluelessness.

>>10143879
Don't read them, then. And if you must, don't tell us about it.

>>10143885
Sound advice.

>>10143869
>especially at the end when Remilia notices that Reimu didn't even break a sweat or didn't even use half her power or something like that.

You just KNOW the author did that part on purpose, not to mention just after that Reimu is massaging Marisa's wounds just to add to the insult to the fans.

Eheh.

>>10143853
Disputable. Yuyuko's ability has only been said to work on humans, and/or only works on things that are already going to die. She cannot invite Kaguya nor Mokou to death. Lunarians also do not die of old age on the moon, but can die by other means, so it remains to be known whether or not she can use her ability. There are only a billion reasons why she wouldn't, though.

In any case both of you are being retarded about stretching ability semantics to their utmost levels. Stop that.

>>10143898
I would like to have seen the author's face when he put those pages up.

>>10143809
If we want to go full autistic about this, then IF there wasn't a spellcard GAME, then Reimu's Fantasy Heaven would allow her to win any opponent... that can't move or somehow counter that. Kaguya and Mokou are plainly immortal, Remilia becomes an endless swarm of bats (and regenerates from a single bat), Koishi disappears from your mind's eye, Suika becomes thin mist that cannot be hit, Sakuya stops time, Yuyuko and Flandre have instant kill attacks while Youmu and Aya move at "fuck you" speeds.

Then there's people like Yukari, Eirin and or the Yama that control reality to a point where they can probably "leave" until Reimu gets tired to use Fantasy Heaven and then return and win.

So, count me as not that much impressed by Reimu's big attack. It's something worthy for the girl that has to be the warden of Gensokyo, but it's not that idiotic Hax Sign: You plain fucking lose people think it is.

>>10143879
*keystrokes keystrokes keystrokes*

>>10143898
The first time I got to that part it actually irritated me. It was only after a little while that I was able to laugh at it.

The youkai who had no way to return had to surrender. Since she was up against those that she could not defeat.

>>10143907
>Kaguya and Mokou are plainly immortal,
Doesn't matter, immortal =! invincible, Mokou cries and gives up in a mere spellcard duel.

>Remilia becomes an endless swarm of bats (and regenerates from a single bat), Koishi disappears from your mind's eye, Suika becomes thin mist that cannot be hit, Sakuya stops time, Yuyuko and Flandre have instant kill attacks while Youmu and Aya move at "fuck you" speeds.
All of which were beaten by Reimu at some point.

>Then there's people like Yukari, Eirin and or the Yama that control reality to a point where they can probably "leave" until Reimu gets tired to use Fantasy Heaven and then return and win.
You're forgetting that Reimu's own ability IS to jump out of reality.

>>10143849
Christ what is with you.
>why didn't she kill reimu in PCB?
Firstly because disputes are solved non-violently, and humans are not killed in battle. Secondly because she's the Hakurei miko and Gensokyo would basically collapse if she died.
>the watatsukis would just have pulled some bullshit like ''I SUMMON THE GOD OF DEATH HAHAHA YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME''.
Your interpretation of their character without actually knowing anything you're claiming is what's Mary Sue here. What the fuck.
>if ZUN put Yuyuko in the games but not the watatsukis it means they are more mary sue than her.
Still no. ZUN does say he doesn't put them in a game because they're cheaty-strong characters, but you're looking at it from the wrong side. They were only created as Mary Sues because he wanted characters that he couldn't put in a game.

>>10143934
>Firstly because disputes are solved non-violently and humans are not killed in battle
They were like 2 games ago. Yuyuko's desire was to revive the dead tree and she wouldn't let some miko interfere.

>Gensokyo collapse if she died
How do you know Yuyuko knew or that the ''collapse'' that Akyuu mentions is what you think it is?

>Your interpretation of their character without actually knowing anything you're claiming is what's Mary Sue here. What the fuck.
Please tell me what the problem is instead of stating nothing.

>Still no. ZUN does say he doesn't put them in a game because they're cheaty-strong characters, but you're looking at it from the wrong side. They were only created as Mary Sues because he wanted characters that he couldn't put in a game.
Hence why they are more Mary Sue than Yuyuko who is beatable.

>>10143849
>why didn't she kill reimu in PCB?
If you ever wonder why someone didn't kill someone else in Touhou, you're a retard and should quit the series.

>>10143932
>All of which were beaten by Reimu at some point.
Yeah, but she couldn't beat most of them in an actual all-out, life or death, fight.

>>10143932
Dude you are completely missing the point.
Note: "IF there wasn't a spellcard GAME".
You're arguing from special pleading towards Reimu but not any other characters and then going "oh but Reimu beat them all". Well no shit.

>>10143943
I know the spellcard rules, but why would Yuyuko let that stop her plan?

>>10143948
>but she couldn't beat most of them in an actual all-out, life or death, fight.

Says who? She beat Shiki in a non-spellcard battle, a DIMENSION-CREATING GOD.

>>10143950
It's a video game. Stop taking it so seriously.

>>10143949
>"IF there wasn't a spellcard GAME".
There was no spellcard game prior to EoSD and Reimu still beat every superpowered otherwordly creature, despite her being much weaker than she currently is right now since she couldn't even fly on her own.

>>10143950
Because that's what the spell card rules are fucking for. You might as well make that argument for every character in every game that wants to do something, and you'd still be wrong every time for the same reason. Besides Yuyuko didn't really give a shit after all, she was only serious about it at the time and then immediately after she was thwarted she went back to basically forgetting about the whole thing.

>>10143900
Kaguya and Mokou are hourai fucking immortals and cannot die, period. Yuyuko obviously wouldn't defeat the entire moon capital, but she certainly had the means to kill people dear to Eirin while there. This was the knife Yukari twisted into Eirin. It's "payment" for the fact that she's only alive because the lunarians want so (see the results of first lunar war).

Now Eirin also knows her family only lives because Yukari wants so.

>>10143958
>Besides Yuyuko didn't really give a shit after all
Yes she did, she wouldn't have done so if that wasn't the case, she had amnesia remember? It wasn't till Reimu beat her up that she snapped out of her acts.

>>10143959
>but she certainly had the means to kill people dear to Eirin while there
Where did you get that from?

>>10143959
Rememer Anon that Eirin is hourai as well!

>>10143954
And this is pleading towards the PC-98 series, which you should readily acknowledge was written with absolutely no consideration towards there even being a Gensokyo. You seriously cannot argue based on nonexistent details in games that happened before any of these premises existed.

>>10143958
>You might as well make that argument for every character in every game that wants to do something

Yeah actually, I should. But thing is, Yuyuko's case wasn't just a case of mischief like Remilia, it was an actual serious thing that she wanted to do, _why_ risk the chance of losing if she could just murder her enemy? And to nullify the potential of her knowing the importance of the miko towards the barrier, why didn't she kill Marisa in her route?

Hell, has it ever been shown how her power works? Can she kill with her mind? Can she kill more than one people at a time? Can said ability be dodged/blocked?

As for other characters, it makes contradictions. Utsuho actually wanted to kill everyone and everything above ground yet she still used spellcards with Reimu. Byakuren had been sealed in another dimension for 5000 years yet the second she's out of the seal she already has her own danmaku spellcards somehow.

It's doubtful that Yuyuko could kill everyone on the moon just like that even if she wanted to. Maybe she could kill a whole lot before a shrine maiden beat the shit out of her. Maybe she isn't even able to invoke death at all in the pure land.

>>10143975
Why are you trying to void their importance?

If they weren't important, ZUN wouldn't have had the need to write the implementation of the spellcard rules in PMiSS by Reimu where it is stated that it was done just before EoSD in order to avoid deaths and make conflict more even between strong and weak creatures.

>>10143961
She has amnesia in the sense that she doesn't recognize that she killed herself because of her ability and that she's the one buried under Saigyou Ayakashi. She didn't literally forget about the incident. Regardless your whole point about "why did Yuyuko not just kill her" is completely bunk.

>>10143998
Okay, why didn't she kill her?

COULD she kill her?

HOW does she kill?

>>10143985
It's because it's a light series where nobody dies and ZUN doesn't care about reifying everything like the sperglord fans do.

Why is this thread so goddem fast? I can't take it easy anymore.

>>10143975
There was a Reimu then, who was a shrine maiden and had the ability to kick ass.

There's no reason to believe that the current Reimu is some sort of pushover who can only win due to the handicap imposed by the spellcard rules.

Nah...Mary Sues are rarely blood thirsty berserkers.

>>10143985
>>10144002
touhou has a lot of contradictions.

not like ZUN admits it though he just rolls with what he has in mind, he probably doesn't remember what he had for breakfast yesterday.

>>10143985
Maybe it's because she didn't want to murder anyone.

God damn, think this shit through for just one second.

>>10144017
>Maybe it's because she didn't want to murder anyone.
Got proof?

>>10143985
She invites people to their own death. They pretty much just drop dead, as far as we know.

Really though you are just completely ignorant of why the spell card rules are in place. Yuyuko, and no other characters either, can just go and kill whomever just because they can. You can't even assert that Yuyuko wanted to resurrect the Saigyou Ayakashi more than anyone else wanted to do whatever they got busted for.

>>10144027
Okay, let's play along with that assumption of yours about Yuyuko.

Now, explain Utsuho's and Byakuren's cases.

>>10144027
>Yuyuko, and no other characters either, can just go and kill whomever just because they can.

Because?

A lot of the flavour text for the spellcards involves something lethal is happening to the one hit by it as well, but it doesn't seem to have long lasting effects or anything.

Must be part of the spellcard rules?

>>10143949
Nope, I'm arguing from what their special abilities are said to do. In an all out magic battle Yuyuko or Flandre kill Reimu from a distance, or Reimu doesn't can't even react before Sakuya slits her throat. Or Kaguya or Yukari use their horribly vague abilities to freeze her in time forever or remove the boundaries between Reimu and not Reimu.

>>10143952
Given how Gensokyo turned out later, I think it's best to retroactively consider Touhou 1-5 as "Mima oversees Reimu and Marisa's training". This helps to explain a lot of things.

>>10144018
She didn't try to murder anyone, so one can reasonably come to the conclusion that she wasn't intending to try and murder anyone.

>>10144027
Youkai still eat humans today, though only the ones that glitch into Gensokyo from the outside world.

>>10144045
> so one can reasonably come to the conclusion that she wasn't intending to try and murder anyone.

Well I reach the assumption that her power isn't ''I can kill anyone by thinking about it'' like most people think.

>>10144044
>Nope, I'm arguing from what their special abilities
>I'm

Whoa there, you're not me.

>>10144036
I'm not that guy, but Utsuho was retarded, obviously. And, what about Byakuren again?

>>10144036
This is why going to the spellcard rules is a bad answer. The fact is, there is no answer.

>>10144040
Everything is simultaneously deadly and harmless. Deal with it.

>>10144036
When Utsuho said, "I'm gonna go to the above-ground and kill everyone," Orin and the shrine maiden said, "okay, but you have to play by the spell cards rules," and Utsuho said "okay."

>>10144044
Yes, but not before Yoshika eats all of Gensokyo. Just because someone has the power to do X doesn't mean their power to do X is unlimited.

>>10143963
Yuyuko invites death to humans. Lunarians are humans (the strongest of them are actually gods, but most are simply people living in the moon). Eirin has family there (the Watatsukis for example, must be more).

>>10144050
>but Utsuho was retarded
Not an explanation, her wanting to kill everyone is a pretty basic thing to do, hell, how did the underground know about the spellcard rules, by the way?

Byakuren had been sealed in another dimension for 5000 years yet the second she's out of the seal she already has her own danmaku spellcards somehow.

>>10144066
Eirin actually has a family line there.

Apparently the Watatsukis are married into the Yagokoro line.

>>10143994
I'm not saying they aren't important, I'm saying that you can't claim that Reimu could beat everyone in Gensokyo just because she stopped some people before the spell card rules and also stops the current cast with spell cards. You were arguing with special pleading to Reimu in regards to Fantasy Heaven and then when pointed out that other characters are pretty cheaty too you went back to PC-98 which has no relevance to what you were talking about before.

>>10144006
I'm not implying that she can't win. In fact, even if she couldn't without the spell card rules, the other youkai still couldn't kill her by virtue of keeping the Great Barrier up.

>>10144018
Shit man you have to prove that she wanted to murder someone, not the other way around.

>>10144066
>Yuyuko invites death to humans
What does that mean?

Does she say ''c'mere baby death awaits you''?

Does she shoot a butterfly at them that kills them with one touch?

Does she kills them with her thoughts?

Characters have spell cards because Touhou is a shooter game.

God damn you people are fucking retarded.

>>10144078
They're called "Bombs". Lol, "Spell Cards", do you care about the STORY or something?

>>10144071
>I'm saying that you can't claim that Reimu could beat everyone in Gensokyo just because she stopped some people before the spell card rules and also stops the current cast with spell cards.
>and then when pointed out that other characters are pretty cheaty too you went back to PC-98 which has no relevance to what you were talking about before.

Whoa whoa whoa, you're the one claiming that all those characters could beat Reimu in a non-spellcard duel and I proved you otherwise, then you claim that the PC-98 games don't matter because they weren't made with ZUN's current perspective, don't give me that shit. Don't try to pinpoint this on me.

>>10144084
The bombs are spell cards, you fucking nerd.

>>10144071
>even if she couldn't without the spell card rules, the other youkai still couldn't kill her by virtue of keeping the Great Barrier up.

Okay, what about when she goes to Makai? That isn't a part of Gensokyo, who there gives a shit if she dies?

The only real answer to anything in this thread.

>>10144047
Yes, and those are the exceptions to keep certain youkai alive.

>>10144066
Lunarians are essentially powerful humans, but they cannot die by natural causes when on the moon. Because Yuyuko cannot kill people who cannot die period, she might be able to kill Lunarians, and she might not. You cannot assert that she can, though.

>>10143965
There are arguments for and against Eirin being a Hourai immortal. On the ghost team ending, Yuyuko tries to poison Eirin to keep her in the netherworld.

I prefer to believe Eirin inteded to become a full immortal, but chickened out from drinking her dose from the Hourai elixir (this is the does that ended in Mokou) and it's because the shame she feels about basically abandoning Kaguya to an eternity that she placed herself as Kaguya's attendant.

Mind, she probably is as "immortal" as Yukari (unaging, immune to mostly everything, but can still die when she wants or if people get very lucky).

>>10144083
Sorry, I think we both misinterpreted each other. I'm just saying you can't claim that Reimu can beat everyone else for those reasons. Likewise, I know that I can't claim the opposite. We're both sitting on the null position here.

>>10144092
Like if she took only one or two sips of the elixir as opposed to the full thing?

I think that would make an interesting insight on her character if ZUN wrote about it.

I personally think it'd be interesting if Eirin considered inviting Udonge to the hourai club. I just find it cute if she became dependant on her pupil's company.

>>10144101
The point is Reimu has her own hax herself, hell Fantasy Heaven is basically her using her ability and shooting at you from outside of reality itself. What's stopping her from simply doing that literally outside of a spellcard?

>>10144117
Everyone has hax. Arguing whose hax are stronger is fun but not particularly insightful.

>>10144065
While this is true (Yukari can only gap to the moon during a very specific time window, for example), we know Flandre's power can obliterate a meteorite that would destroy the SDM. That's a rather objective demonstration of her power at work. And since the Scarlets actually "lost" to "powerful youkai" before EoSD even starts, there are some really bad dudes in Gensokyo that can roll against the kind of shit Flan and Remilia can pull. I simply cannot imagine Reimu playing at that level.

>>10144135
You can argue that she wouldn't actually win, but not even being able to imagine it? There are any number of stories people have written that involve Reimu beating the shit out of everyone ever.

>>10144117
Note, I started arguing at >>10143949
Reimu's attack isn't that impressive considering many characters have similarly broken attacks. It's therefore futile to guess who would beat who. I thought you were implying Reimu would beat everyone simply because of Fantasy Heaven. There's nothing to stop her from using it outside the spell card rules, but of course that's a pointless conjecture since nobody goes outside.

>>10143356

Defeated by Tenshi, Yorihime, Suika and Yukari (more than once) in canon.

>>10144086
It's better to think that was Mima and Shinki entertaining the girls. Mima because she was finishing up their training, Shinki out of a vague feeling that Alice should socialize with humans too (this kind of failed, because demon lord). Yuuka followed them around spreading chaos, because Yuuka.

>>10144135
Why do you think this has any relevance once the spell card rules are in play? We've already told you that spell card rules exist in part to avoid these sorts of banal power-only conflicts.

>>10143838

Why don't you people actually read CiLR?

Lunarian magic is so powerful it fucked with Yukari's ability.

It would definitely fuck with Yuyuko's ability too.

Reminder that Yukari and an army of youkai lost against the Lunarians.

Magic - 0
Science - 1

>>10144108
Yeah, pretty much. Eirin got herself "immortal" like an youkai, but with an escape clause, because she's smart enough to realize that being full on immortal is a nightmare prospect.

On doing that, she cursed Kaguya to an eternity of loneliness, and she serving Kaguya is her way to make amends.

Kaguya of course, is an airhead that drinked the whole thing without a second thought.

>>10144188
Though of course, with immunity to poison and the like.

>>10144185
But many Lunarians do use some magic. It just so happens that they are also very technologically advanced.

>>10144175
I don't think this has relevance? The spellcards are in place so that the likes of Cirno can win against Marisa when the fairy is feeling hot-blooded enough, or Reimu winning against the likes of Yukari or the Enma.

That there aren't hard feelings in place after a game is also a huge boon.

>>10144135
Read Yukari-Ran compilation by Tohonifun. Flan lost because she was against Mokou-Kaguya and she was bored of killing them again and again.

>>10144182
Sure, but could it interfere with Yoshika's ability to eat anything? It's not the kind of attack people would think to defend against. In Japan people talk about drinking the moon. So I think Yoshika could eat the moon if she really wanted. And therefore Lunarian society only exists because Seiga wills it.

>>10144207
(note that cirno still didn't win in gfw, she actually lost against flashlights and while marisa was drunk)

Please explain precisely what your original argument was though. There might be some miscommunication since there already has been and there are multiple intersecting conversations going on.

>>10144086

When will you people stop bringing PC-98 games into discussions like this?

ZUN said many times that they are not canon anymore.

>>10144185

Lunarians use both. And their technology is actually more magical than scientific.

Canon? And has anyone actually played these games? They're fun.

>>10144232
While I'd agree with you, it isn't a good idea to just flat-out say they aren't canon. However, they generally shouldn't be used in reference if you're talking about anything past PC-98. If you want to talk about Yuuka and Alice fighting Reimu before PoFV, then yeah that actually happened.

>>10144232
There's no reason not to.

ZUN wrote a story, once upon a time, in which a main character shrine maiden was able to defeat a god.

So it stands to reason that in another story ZUN wrote, a main character shrine maiden might be able to defeat beings of godlike power.

>>10144232
Really, now.

http://www.gensokyo.org/archives/92

>>10144263
It's questionable. I personally do think that she did "defeat" Shinki and it was the same Reimu, but I don't think that it implies that she would also be able to defeat another character of godlike power, especially when the comparison between Shinki and that character is ambiguous. Furthermore I think that this is an event that isn't a good idea to take as evidence for claims after the world and setting of what we're talking about has actually been fleshed out, which is generally what ZUN means when he says to disregard the PC-98 series. In any case, I think she might be able to defeat another godlike character, but not for the explicit reason you provide and merely because we know Reimu is strong and the chance of winning isn't zero.

>>10144228
1) Reimu's ability of "floating away from reality" is very strong, but it's not the strongest ability on Touhou, by a large degree. Kaguya, Yukari and Flandre have stronger abilities, for example. Heck, Mokou is shown to do something pretty much identical to Fantasy Heaven: She doesn't return to life, but keeps attacking "from the other side".

2) Reimu came with the spellcard rules to level the playing field. The youkai went along because fuck, spellcards are pretty, and clothing damage beats getting killed.

3) The spellcard game has to be somehow magically enforced inside Gensokyo. Like, reality there is altered so that if you think about dueling somebody you get your spellcards and some dodging skill. This is mostly due to the urgent circunstances around Byakuren and Miko's incidents.

4) Without spellcards, they'd fight with brute force or magic, and the duels would resemble something out of Type Moon, with that kind of lethality.

5) Touhou 1-5 is Reimu and Marisa's training. Mima was guarding them so that (4) didn't came into effect and crushed the girls. That, or ZUN didn't had idea of what Gensokyo would be yet and we can simply ignore them.

>>10144308
>Like, reality there is altered so that if you think about dueling somebody you get your spellcards and some dodging skill. This is mostly due to the urgent circunstances around Byakuren and Miko's incidents.
Even "it's a game, don't think too hard about it" is a more satisfying explanation of why Byakuren has spell cards than the idea that Gensokyo has some reality warping field in it where if you try to step out of line you mysteriously find yourself back on it.

>>10144318
I don't know if it's that satisfying. SoPM and the such shows that things have reasons to happen. So it's at least interesting trying to figure how the heck Miko can be just awakening and already be armed with 7 cards.

shes full of flaws

how can she be a mary sue

>>10144346
It's a totally unsatisfying explanation. It's a non-explanation. But "reality-warping field" is an outright shitty explanation.

>SoPM and the such shows that things have reasons to happen.
Yes, Gensokyo has lore, cause, and effect, but it hardly ties into game mechanics.

>how the heck Miko can be just awakening and already be armed with 7 cards.
Because she's the stage six boss of a danmaku shooter.

>>10144373
Have to agree here. It's confusing when you look at a lot of things in the game at face value, but it's a good idea to keep in mind that what you see in the game isn't necessarily exactly what happens. The primary reason for that is just because it's a game, and the medium of a top-down shooter doesn't exactly make it easy to convey precise details. ZUN rathers giving up storytelling efficacy for gameplay.

There doesn't currently seem to be an explanation for "woop i have cards now", but I don't think it's proper to impose one just because you have no answer.

>>10144308
1) Okay, but you can't really claim that Reimu could not win no-hold-barred, nor could you say the other would.
2) The spell cards were an alternative to the youkai being very restricted by a previous contract. There are benefits for all sides, including giving the youkai the chance to defeat Reimu without grave consequences.
3) As said, there doesn't really. The logistics behind it would be nice to know, but isn't necessarily forced by magic just because you don't know how they agree to the rules. The characters might as well just explain the rules beforehand and everyone agrees because it's cool.
4) p much, although notably there are physical attacks in danmaku fights; they just aren't common
5) clearly not canon but as long as you aren't claiming otherwise whatever

>>10144347
Don't worry, she's not. WaHH shows it's actually a literal miracle of the universe that Reimu and Marisa aren't dead yet. (Picture related)

>>10144373
>>10144409
I don't know if it's shitty. Eirin once altered the reality to "close" the moon, so magic in Touhou can plainly alter the universal rules.

The point where game mechanics don't come into play is for example the actual form of a spellcard duel. In "reality" (lol), it's two people flying around shooting each other and dodging, instead of one girl landing 2 millions of shots on another girl to chip away her health bar. See this for a good animated example, in particular to the spellcard Yuuka uses near the end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ3tmbSpooc

Things like lives, bombs and power items are all abstractions. But the spellcards themselves, are part of Gensokyo's reality. Marisa Grimoire is about them.

>>10144447
3) There's always the probability that "in reality", after Byakuren yells "Namusan!", the heroine shouts "Time out!" and then explains how all the cool kids are now dueling via spellcards. Cue to the heroine waiting while Byakuren writes down six cards for the duel to resume. Same thing with Futo and Miko.

5) it's my headcanon :P I don't want to simply ignore the PC-98 games, and I want to explain the heightened levels of wackyness they featured in the light of this new, more reasonable Gensokyo. Of course, Black Tewi comes strongly here.

>>10144456
You can't really just impose what mechanics are internally consistent with Gensokyo just because it sounds like it works and the possibility is there. The actual contents of a danmaku battle have been explained in lore, but your suggestion of a magical field forcing the spell card rules isn't really substantiated.

>>10144456
>Eirin once altered the reality to "close" the moon, so magic in Touhou can plainly alter the universal rules.
It's a shitty explanation. Magic in Touhou is based in mythology. The kind of stuff that wouldn't be out particularly out of place in a collection of legends if you fixed it up a bit.

It's not the kind of profound science-fictionesque reality-altering bullshit that characters like Haruhi and Fate from Negima can pull where reality can simply be rewritten at will.

>>10144280
>ZUN: “Nintendo’s Wii and DS are very interesting.”
>Announcer: “Have you ever thought, ‘It would be nice to make a game for this?’”
>ZUN: “Well, yes. Things like, ‘Hmm, it would be interesting to do that to Reimu with a touch pen … “
>Announcer: “Ummm.”

Always classy, that ZUN.

>>10144456
>I don't know if it's shitty. Eirin once altered the reality to "close" the moon, so magic in Touhou can plainly alter the universal rules.
It's a shitty explanation. Magic in Touhou is mythological in spirit. You might almost call it provincial. The kind of stuff that wouldn't be out particularly out of place in a collection of Japanese legends if you fixed it up a bit.

It's not the kind of science-fictionesque, profound reality-altering bullshit that characters like Haruhi and Fate Averruncus can pull where reality can simply be forced from state A into state B. There's no basis for that kind of stuff in Gensokyo.

>>10144511
>:P
Get out and don't come back.

>>10144552

What the hell are you talking about?

Magic in Touhou can do insane things. Shinki created a whole world using magic. Sakuya can time stop at will, for long periods of time. Kaguya can move instantly and make anything invulnerable. Byakuren is a Buddhist Superman.

The likes of Fate would be powerless against the bullshit reality breaking stuff some touhous can do.

>>10144573

Not even mentioning Suika and her black hole throwing.

And I'm pretty sure Flandre's ability is forcing reality from state A to B. B being utter destruction.

She's the strongest, but she often plays into schemes, is lazy, or is outright evil.

>>10144573
>The likes of Fate would be powerless against the bullshit reality breaking stuff some touhous can do.
The entire point of Fate's bullshit is that people from the fantasy world can do nothing to him, which is everyone besides Maribel, Renko, and possibly Sanae, whereas he can do everything to them. Nothing works on him. That's the point. It's a whole other level of bullshit.

>Shinki created a whole world using magic.
She's a god.

>Sakuya can time stop at will, for long periods of time.
We haven't seen her do it for more than thirty seconds at a time.

>Kaguya can move instantly and make anything invulnerable.
I don't recall her having teleportation. The spell of eternity is hardly depicted at something that can be cast and lifted at will.

>Not even mentioning Suika and her black hole throwing.
Which aren't actually black holes.

>And I'm pretty sure Flandre's ability is forcing reality from state A to B. B being utter destruction.
Blowing shit up is conceptually simple. Humans can do it. Warping reality is something else.

>>10144552
Chalk another difference for Black Tewi, then. I find the version where each battle against a newcomer is preceded by an explanation about how spellcards work and then some time for the new girl to write her cards actually more head-desk inducing than the possibility that Yukari and co. hacked reality to make "spellcards" a part of the lack of common sense that characterizes the inside of the hakurei's barrier.


>>10144562
This is the inverse of what you're mom told me. :P

>>10144623
One of them is somewhat plausible. We saw a loose approximation in Silent Sinner. The other presumes some phenomenal bullshit that changes Gensokyo on a fundamental level, which ZUN conveniently forgot to ever mention.

>>10144618
Wasn't it stated at one point that Sakuya actually doesn't have THAT many knives, and sometimes she has to stop time and go pick up all the knives she's dropped then go back to where she was before?

>>10144552
>Fate Averruncus
Out of curiosity I went to read about this guy and what I've found in the wiki (link below) is pretty much weaksauce. He looks like a Earthbender from Avatar. The only thing a bit nice is the Spear of Stone, which in the end of the day is like 4 spells being cast at once. Where's this absurd level of defense against supernatural beings?

link: http://negima.wikia.com/wiki/Fate_Averruncus

>>10144648
Well, it was just one example of a reality warper. I could have used others.

I don't really want to get into a detailed Negima discussion here, but at some point in the manga, Fate reveals his ultimate weapon, which is a key that allows him to rewrite reality at will in the magic world. He takes one of the legendary heroes of the magic world who is about to essentially punch him out with an aircraft carrier, and poof, he's suddenly wearing a white suit, drinking tea in a gazebo on a hill full of flowers. Then he is erased. Against the main character, who comes from the real world, he's not able to do this and has to rely on his earth magic whatever.

>>10144645
I don't remember. She may not be able to throw out infinitely many knives without stopping time first, but she can sure throw a lot.