western heritage in comics/animation.

[Anonymous No.5089390]

All this discussion about the superiority of manga and anime has brought up that the wests problem is a loss of its heritage. So it got me thinking what artists are a part of the western heritage that would still be relevant today?
What do you guys think of some of these?
Alex Toth
Milton Caniff
Noel Sickles
Roy Crane
Leonard Starr
Alex Raymond
Just to name a few, there are some realists and stylists from the 1930-60s

[Anonymous No.5089399]

>>5089390
> All this discussion about the superiority of manga and anime has brought up that the wests problem is a loss of its heritage.

What is this even supposed to mean

[Anonymous No.5089402]

>>5089399
It means that Western comics have lost their identity compared to anime

Which is wrong, since the Western illustration heritage is through capeshit comics. OP's pic is the equivalent of Astro Boy.

[Anonymous No.5089417]

>>5089402
Okay but what does it *actually mean?* Is no one referencing older works? Because that's wrong. Is no one making older-styled western comics? Because that's wrong too. It's just a vague platitude dressed up as meaningful critique. You seem to agree with me on this so I'm not going at you directly, just trying to boil down the language to something meaningful.

[Anonymous No.5089421]

American comics cling to heavily to their heritage/roots. No one wants or needs capeshit comics. The style is old and stale, the stories are the same and boring, the politics have become polarizing. The entire industry needs to finally give up and die already.

[Anonymous No.5089440]

>>5089417
OP obviously doesn't know how to articulate his thoughts, maybe he just thinks there aren't enough people who want to draw in capeshit style compared to anime?

[Anonymous No.5089467]

>>5089421
>implying anime isn't stale

[Anonymous No.5089490]

>>5089467
It might be stale, but nothing is stale as the American capeshit style.

[Anonymous No.5089503]

>>5089417
I don't know what op means, but I feel sad that lot of artists, especially young ones are dead set on anime, completely ignoring any other styles. There is rich western heritage of styles, from realistic to stylized, which is not being rediscovered and reimagined.
You can see it here on /ic/, in anime threads, people spend all their creative energy figuring out how to ape asian artists, fighting and mocking the glimpses of their natural western style. To me this looks like borderline self-hate thing.

[Anonymous No.5089506]

>>5089440
Within the discussions here on 4chan zabout the superiority of anime and manga, one of the critiques about western comics is that it's lost it's heritage or roots. I'm not say either is superior, i just keep seeing the thing that western comics has lost it's heritage.

[Anonymous No.5089511]

>>5089506
Just because people keep saying that, doesn't mean it is true. Western comics are identifiably and undeniable Western style, that is its heritage. Perhaps what they mean is that Western comics have lost their influence on popular culture.

[Anonymous No.5089512]

>>5089440
No I my intention was asking what is this heritage that others keep saying the west has lost. That's why my question was about artist and I name dropped a few that have been part of western comics influence before manga came on the scene in the 80s.

[Anonymous No.5089525]

>>5089512
>what is this heritage that others keep saying the west has lost
Nothing
>That's why my question was about artist and I name dropped a few
You just want a list of good Western comic artists?

[Anonymous No.5089527]

>>5089390
So? The east lost THEIR art heritage to Disney long ago.
If it wasn't for Tezuka ripping off Disney most japanese art would have been even more heavily based on traditional japanese paintings from long ago.

Art evolves according to what people love. The west replicating anime and shunning off western realism is just another step of evolution of the western artistic landscape. In fact, it actually mirrors the influence of western art in Japan, it is just that the hemispheres are reversed in this case.

The most appealing artwork wins, not the traditional or realistic one.
Europe (or most specifically, France) already accepted this fact and even managed to put their own spin on it.

[Anonymous No.5089532]

>>5089511
True, but be seen it said a lot an ism curious to what it means to me the western tradition is realism be it photo or miltoncaniff style cartooning and it reflects our past. Japanese manga seems like stylization especially when looking at ukyio-e and etc. I love both so no critisim there just interested in discussing it.

[Anonymous No.5089548]

>>5089525
No I'm good on a list I don't mind others opinions though

[Anonymous No.5089551]

>>5089532
I am curious not an ism

[Anonymous No.5089555]

>>5089527
Some examples on the french please. I'm think some american artist have done this well too. Stuart Immonen on his x- men run, and sometimes sean murphy.

[Anonymous No.5089557]

>>5089390
japan doesnt have a heritage either, they made the whole bushido way of honor bullshit up to drum up tourism after the war
japan is just chinas shitty little cousin that waged a war in itself for 600 years. if it wasnt for the west intervening itd be like aghanistan but with squintier eyes

[Anonymous No.5089572]

>>5089555
Radiant
Wakfu
Dofus
Mutafukaz
Just look at any modern French/Euro production and you'll find influences of anime sensibilities on different degrees, from storytelling to artstyle.

And it should not be surprising, since Japan has been working with Europe for media production for half a decade now.

[Anonymous No.5089573]

>>5089555
As far as frenchies go, Xavier Houssin is my personal favorite. I find his work more appealing than a lot of Japanese artists, even.

[Anonymous No.5089616]

>>5089557
They do have an artistic heritage with sumi-e and the wood block print work and their traditional music, haiku etc. So there is a tradition even if bushido was a 20thcentury invention.

[Anonymous No.5089617]

>>5089572
>>5089573
Thank you I'll check these out.

[Anonymous No.5089622]

>>5089573
>>5089572
>>5089555
based actual helpful discussion and artist sharing anons

[Anonymous No.5089732]

Gene Colan, John Buscema, Doug Wildey, John Romita Sr, Neal Adams

[Anonymous No.5089752]

>>5089421
American comics used to have a lot more variety in genre. Romance and horror used to sell millions in the golden age and had a lot more appeal/imagination. The oversaturation of capeshit in modern us comics is nauseating

[Anonymous No.5089767]

>>5089503
>There is rich western heritage of styles, from realistic to stylized, which is not being rediscovered and reimagined
Well, some of your favorites.

[Anonymous No.5089769]

>>5089767
*name

[Anonymous No.5089779]

what are you talking about, OP? cape artists still trace joe kubert to this very day. his son is the worst offender of course.

>>5089752
more than half of jack kirby's comic output was in genres other than capes. in fact, back in the better years of us comics, capes weren't even in the top 5 of the most popular genres. it's just that capes are the only thing that's still being made.

the influences of manga in american comics started with frank miller

[Anonymous No.5089807]

The problem with american comics is that they stopped evolving. The medium in america is DEAD. No one sees it as a medium for self expression. They see it as that thing referenced in the discussion of super hero movies. No one reads america comics. The large comic companies are clueless and stuck. They know that young people don't read their shit, so instead of innovating or taking inspiration from Japan they pump it full of tranny nigger bullshit making new comics worse than the old ones. When they should be improving over time.

I plan on making my own comic, since it's the only way for a single person to tell a visual story. When I tell that story it's going to be similar to a manga. Mangas do more things right that western comics. They are produced quicker(cheaper) and have shown to have more appeal(sell better.) We need to take what works from manga without taking the autism and japanese culture.

[Anonymous No.5089817]

>>5089807
Although id argue that american comics moved and evolved into memes, I do agree that its the survival of the fittest out there. Society grew up and of course comics couldnt survive competing against beeping interactive screens. I know and im aware that some mangas are still being printed out there but the percentage between online consumption against prints is huge and that is a major factor that should be taken into consideration for comic artists

[Anonymous No.5089819]

>>5089807
the manga industry is toxic as fuck and does not value personal expression at all. many mangaka who are more in it for the actual art you seem to defend would give you the same opinion you express about comic but for manga. it became a reality for me when moebius died and a ton of japanese artists were giving their condolences and pointing out how he was the best artist ever precisely because he was free of the trappings of manga and its industry. one of them actually said "i wish manga was treated as art as comics are in france".

i'd like to point out that usagi yojimbo has never interested japan in any way. which is a shame, it's better than a lot of comics and manga.

[Anonymous No.5089874]

>>5089807
I agree about the superior format of manga. Though I wonder is it that that attracts the reader or the novelty of manga vs the stigma surrounding western comics as kid trash? I doubt it's the stigma , 30 years ago yes but there is a massive acceptance of comics but no new readers. I wonder if western comics maintained it's realist art style but adopted manga format if it would sell better?

[Anonymous No.5089893]

>>5089874
Comics were MUCH more popular in the US in the 30s-40s than people realize. Captain Marvel (Shazam) sales from that time period would make any DC or Marvel executive jizz his fucking shorts today.

Several factors basically put a bullet in the comics industry, not least of which was the Comics Code Authority, and it has been slowly bleeding out ever since.

[Anonymous No.5089961]

>>5089893
I'm aware of popularity back in the 40s-50s. I know the comics code fucked thing up. Though we are in a new period where manga is a better seller the question is how to grab that I interest without going full weeb.

[Anonymous No.5089973]

>>5089961
The main problem is the distribution method, the direct market and Diamond have got a stranglehold on the industry. Put comics back into the checkout lines of grocery stores and gas stations where kids can see them, stop printing on glossy magazine stock and drop the price to something reasonable and sales would triple

[Anonymous No.5089984]

>>5089973
American comics are stuck in a death spiral where they are losing readers and instead of getting them back, they are simultaneously trying to squeeze more money out of the few readers they have left while also trying to capture a market that will not read comics. Their efforts to do one repels the other, so they're spinning their wheels and going nowhere but deeper into the mud. It's hard to believe that billion dollar companies are run by people stupid enough to not see this simple problem, so it may be deliberate sabotage of the market.

[Anonymous No.5090026]

>>5089984
Then what is the solution? They may not be capturing the audience they're going for but at least they're trying instead of sitting by doing nothin

[Anonymous No.5090032]

>>5090026
see
>>5089973

[Anonymous No.5090036]

>>5090032
That post is cope

[Anonymous No.5090155]

>>5090036
There really is nothing to do with this situation but cope is the thing

[Anonymous No.5090157]

>>5089527
>The east lost THEIR art heritage to Disney long ago.
This is a meme, anime style as you know it has roots in girl magazines from the 1920s. Tezuka/Disney obviously influenced that but they aren't the origin point.

[Anonymous No.5090289]

Western heritage is fun goofy stuff like Watterson or Argonez

[Anonymous No.5090510]

>>5089819
If by "in it for the art" you mean the drawings I don't really care. If the art is good enough to tell the story and looks professional it's serviceable, which is the whole point of it. The drawings in a comic aren't art for arts sake. They are how the story is told. Manga styles is quicker to draw than western styles and are done in black in white. If you are spending 30% more time doing a comic style than a manga style then you are losing out on 30% more production or story, characters, writing, time.
>>5089874
I wasn't just talking about the art of making manga I was also talking about logistics. I have never ment anyone who has read a marvel comic, since they are a pain in the ass to get into. They need to make them more accessible. They should make the first couple of issues free and put the rest behind a paywall on their websites to bait people.

[Anonymous No.5090548]

The medium is the message, that's what you culturally illiterate bugs don't understand.
The replacement of world cultures is almost complete.

[Anonymous No.5090617]

>>5090510
I meant art as in proper art expression, not nust drawings. Also wht is this crap about percentages? So you want to be an artist or a computer?

>>5089874
What makes you think manga aren't seen as kid trash, even in Japan?

[Anonymous No.5090647]

>>5089732
>John Buscema
You mean Steve Buscemi?

[Anonymous No.5090662]

>>5090548
elaborate some more, and do you have answers?

[Anonymous No.5090711]

>>5090289
Based

[Anonymous No.5090808]

>>5089767
John Bauer, Anne Anderson, Arthur Rackham. They have beautiful stylized styles that can be easily simplified for modern fast production.

[Anonymous No.5090810]

>>5090808

[Anonymous No.5090813]

>>5090810

[Anonymous No.5090832]

>>5090617
>What makes you think manga aren't seen as kid trash, even in Japan?
Comics aren't seen as kid trash in the US, they're seen as geek trash. Same thing with manga generally being otaku trash.
Now where does the difference lie? The fact that the manga industry is actually sustainable means that so much manga is produced that a few do become culturally recognized, earning awards, getting film deals (either or animated/live action) and even international recognition, such as In This Corner of the World.
The most cultural significance an American comic can expect now is another MCU hero.

[Anonymous No.5090925]

>>5090036
So refute it, if you disagree. Your post is meaningless.

[Anonymous No.5091105]

>>5090832
there is a big difference though. even though aniime is insanely popular, its objective is mostly to please its domestic audience. if you truly want to follow manga you have to be japanese (learning japanese doesn't count). american stuff is made to be universal, so it's bound to appear in every country of the world.


the japanese don't care about overseas audiences and they are more than content with its domestic demand. however japanese zoomers are looking more and more into the west, want to be more like westerners and wish that japan was more like western countries. in the next decade the anime landscape might change a lot.

[Anonymous No.5091391]

>>5090832
> The most cultural significance an American comic can expect now is another MCU hero.

I know it's cool to dunk on the MCU (and I myself haven't watched a single spinoff or anything past Endgame), but you have to realize that this is actually a metric fucking shitton of influence, arguably as much if not more as major anime / manga releases today. The MCU is an international, immediately-recognizable franchise in every country with a theater-going audience now, including Japan. They even did promotional crossovers with My Hero Academia.

[Anonymous No.5092423]

>>5091391
Yeah, the reach of the MCU is easily way more than that of anime. Other than Dragonball, I’m not sure an anime has ever enjoyed the international popularity these films have had.

[Anonymous No.5092451]

>>5090617
I want to be an artist like an engineer. What I want to do is tell stories through comics. To do this I need to produce comics, like anyone else with my goal. This obviously takes time, and time is valuable. Working 40 hours leaves me with only enough time for my future comics to be a hobby. This means I cannot waste time on things that don't matter. I need to streamline the process. That means drawing in a streamline style in black and white, and setting my stories in the right places, so I don't spend random% more time drawing than I need to. Would you rather produce a total of five works or seven? Everything would be the same besides the art. One is just drawn in a style that allows you to express the panel quicker than the other. Obviously it still needs to look good, but in what ways are the most important for that perticular story? I'm going to min max it.

[Anonymous No.5092691]

western art is mostly in movie form nowadays

[MOEBIUS AND TINTIN ON ALL FIEL(...) No.5092718]

MOEBIUS AND TINTIN ON ALL FIELDS

[Anonymous No.5092983]

>>5089390
>comics
>claiming that a genre started by Jewish immigrants is "western heritage"
>claiming that an eastern style that heavily took influence from western artists isn't "western heritage"

[Anonymous No.5093103]

The modern popularized "anime style" is literally based off Disney and still is.

[Anonymous No.5093486]

>>5092983
it started from newspaper satire cartoons and strips, honestly it a form inherent in both european and japanese tradition, It could be true of other culture but I dont know enough about them. Its not jewish any more than a pentatonic scale in music is chinese, though the holocaust never happened but should have.

[Anonymous No.5094081]

>>5092718
holy based

[Anonymous No.5094322]

>>5092983
>thinking americans invented comics
>or anything at all

[Anonymous No.5094649]

test >>5076536

[Anonymous No.5095830]

>>5089390
I love all those guys and many more (Wally Wood, Al Williamson, Jack Davis, Stan Drake ... ).
The problem is that many younger people are just ignorant of American comic history. Look how many here equate American comics with 'capeshit.'
The solution would be to revive interest in classic American comics. But the goal is not to just imitate them, but build on them.

[Anonymous No.5096792]

>>5095830
Good ole stan Drake, I was reading the sunday classic comics press edition of THJJ and damn it was addictive.

[Anonymous No.5096801]

>>5095830
>But the goal is not to just imitate them, but build on them
I agree, there was a recent controversy in capeshit land where a marvel artist was complaing about 3 pages of talking heads, being uninteresting (and unsellable) and I'm thinking to myself, that fuck never came across Mary Perkins on stage, Starr is an absolute master of acting, expression, draftsmanship, that never failed to sell. Plus all the kids that have a boner for thundercats he was a writer for that to boot.

[Anonymous No.5096802]

>>5095830
>>5096792
Zoomer here, can you recommend more so i can check them out? They seem interesting

[Anonymous No.5096818]

>>5089390
American comics have always been shit compared to manga since the manga industry is more cuthroat and has higher standards resulting in more quality titles unlike American comics which seem to be a charity organization at this point. Name me 1 American comic that can compete with any of the popular manga in Japan. Oh wait, you can't because they're all shit and burgers have no storytelling talent.

[Anonymous No.5097009]

>>5096818
Manga is infantile juvenilia and more often than not, kitsch. You probably think all American comics are super hero comics. I suggest you read more and try to step out of your ignorance (if it’s even possible).

[Anonymous No.5097121]

>>5096802
I'll break them down in groups:
>The OGs: Hal Foster (Prince Valiant), Alex Raymond (Flash Gordon, Rip Kirby), Milton Caniff (Terry and the Pirates, Steve Canyon). These 3 were important because they were hugely influential on many who followed.
>EC Comics: Great horror, sci-fi, and crime comics. Censorship pressures put them out of business, leading to a narrower market (today's 'capeshit'). Two of my favorite artists are from EC: Wally Wood and Jack Davis. Others include Harvey Kurtzman, Al Feldstein, and Graham 'Ghastly' Ingels.
>The Illustrative Tradition: Includes the above, and also the romance comic strip artists like Leonard Starr and Stan Drake. My personal fave is Al Williamson, who is the successor to Alex Raymond. He worked for EC but also did Flassh Gordon and other strips (and Star Wars comics). His work is amazing, such an underrated artist. Unfortunately the illustrative tradition is largely lost in American comics (with Mark Schultz being one of the few current practitioners).
>Later greats: Bernie Wrightson, Mike Ploog, Gene Colan, P. Craig Russell. I'll also mention Jack Kirby here (which some might debate, but I'll maintain he was one of the best storytellers in comics).
>Other Classics: Winsor McCay, George Herriman, Walt Kelly, E.C. Segar, Cliff Sterrett, Will Eisner. All innovators of the comic form.

[Anonymous No.5097148]

>>5097121
Some images from Dave Sim's The Strange Death of Alex Raymond that show the influence of Foster, Raymond and Caniff.

[Anonymous No.5097151]

>>5097148

[Anonymous No.5097154]

>>5097151

[Anonymous No.5097926]

>>5097154
>>5097151
>>5097148
>>5097121
Thanks mate. I will definitely check them out and try to incorporate them into my style and comics.

[Anonymous No.5098838]

>>5089390
What are yu talking about?
Manga is just a niche from an island for lonely nerds, western media is known world wide, maybe even your parents know some comics or watched some cartoons.
outside of internet is kinda hard find people to talk "which 2hu wud u fugg??"
T. a weeb

[Anonymous No.5098848]

>>5098838
not op, but I think his point is that the pre-capeshit tradition of American comics has largely been lost. The world knows Marvel movies, but even many aspiring American comic artists don't know who Alex Raymond or Milton Caniff is.

[Anonymous No.5099115]

>>5096802
op here, he nailed it>>5097121

[Anonymous No.5099120]

>>5098838
>>5098848
I'm the OP and yes this is correct, the tradition in american comics has been lost to the superhero genre, few look outside and before it .

[Anonymous No.5099518]

>>5096802
The first thing that comes to my mind is Wallace Wood's Cannon, it was published in an army newspaper for soldiers, it's James Bond cranked all the way up, he beats a chinese spy until she becomes a submissive house wife, kills both Castro and Batista, breaks his own face to escape persecution, it's brutal.
If anything else comes to mind I'll post it.

[Anonymous No.5101203]

>>5097121
Thanks for posting these, working my way through Toth so these will be next. Dave Sim is a bit of an autist but I’m enjoying the thorough investigation of styles. And somehow I never knew about readcomiconline!

[Anonymous No.5102009]

you fellas think we can keep a western general?

[Anonymous No.5102040]

>>5102009
I'd like that (OP)
I always post about this stuff, my own work is like Raymonds on Rip Kirby, there is a ton to explore thats not manga from both the States and Europe, that is incredible.

[Anonymous No.5102655]

>>5102009
Bump.
The market forces driving classic western comics may be gone, but I’m hoping the internet and crowdfunding will somehow keep it alive. Studying it here has been a good balance to the classic manga I’ve been reading lately.

[Anonymous No.5102683]

>>5102009
I really hope so. That would give me a reason to get on this board often. What would we even do on it? Just discuss western classic comics and study them and their style right?

[Anonymous No.5102719]

>>5089527
But what they have is uniquely Japanese, regardless of its source.

>>5089557
It's no more (or less) "authentic" than American pioneer mythology

>>5089893
I think TV played a huge role. Especially post streaming, there's simply more easy entertainment than a single person can watch in a lifetime. Normies talk about their shows with the same enthusiasm that nerds were mocked for in the 90's. Same thing wrt the brain drain in genre and adventure fiction.

[Anonymous No.5102760]

>>5102009
I would be down for that, this board definitely needs more of a balance.

[Anonymous No.5102782]

>>5102683
>What would we even do on it? Just discuss western classic comics and study them and their style right?
That would be ideal—classic American pre-code comic books and comic strips in particular. Though superheroes shouldn't be dogmatically ruled out (there's some great stuff in the 60s and 70s) the varied genres are lost to history and deserve a resurgence.

[Anonymous No.5102826]

>>5102009
I'd be there. Aside from the odd web comic and old stuff I learned about ten years ago, I don't have much of a window on western comics

[Anonymous No.5102843]

>>5089402
Western illustration "heritage" goes back to the 19th century with people like Rodolphe Töpffer, Gustave Doré, etc.

[Anonymous No.5102866]

>>5102843
Yeah maybe it should be "western comics" or "western classic comics" instead of "western heritage" (which has all kinds of implications).

[Anonymous No.5102875]

>>5102683
Not just post western comics and illustrations but also try to aid people who wants to do art in those styles
I tried looking for help in the stylized art thread a couple of years back and people could not help me, who knows how helpful could it be now since the anime style people split from that thread but it's better to ask the people who know and that should be our thread
>>5102782
I won't rule out contemporary art, some times present day comics have good art even if it's rare and personally late 80's early 90's have some of my favorite work
>>5102866
"Western illustration and comics general"

[Anonymous No.5102911]

>>5102875
>Western illustration and comics general
That's a good title that covers enough ground (yet is still specific enough). It's implied that animation could be included (Fleischer brothers, Tex Avery, Bob Clampett, Chuck Jones, etc.).

[Anonymous No.5102936]

>>5102911
I want to include animation and cartooning too
The most important thing for me is aiding people who wants to draw in western styles.

[Anonymous No.5103120]

>>5102009
Yes, and as others mentioned don't focus on comics only.
>>5102875
>"Western illustration and comics general"
Sounds good.

[Anonymous No.5103595]

>>5102936
>who wants to draw in western styles
I'm game for this but honestly, its really just learning the craft of traditional art, and becoming fluent in various styles, bigfoot, realism, humor cartoon ala playboy, etc. Though some are basically dead styles reviving and reinvigorating them is great.

[Anonymous No.5103651]

>>5103595
I'm mainly interested because I can't find any western comics worth reading
>low effort wokeshit
>capeshit with awful writing based on characters that were played out 30 years ago (that's also turned woke)
>Eurocomics that are cool but also basically coasting on ancient properties like tintin

Outside of genre stuff, illustration seems dominated by flat style and similar junk

[Anonymous No.5103816]

>>5103651
Start with Alex Toth s run on zorro, its a fun adventure romp, the writing is a little dated but nevertheless still fun read, plus its a masterwork of the craft.

[Anonymous No.5103938]

>>5089557
>they made the whole bushido way of honor bullshit up to drum up tourism after the war
Source on this.

[Anonymous No.5103947]

>>5089616
but people care more about shonen jump than sumi-e, at least in this board

[Anonymous No.5103950]

>>5103938
not that anon but other asian stuff had a similar usefulness for its main countries, like feng shui and tai chi

[Anonymous No.5104273]

>>5103595
>... and becoming fluent in various styles, bigfoot, realism, humor cartoon ala playboy, etc.
True, but becoming fluent in those styles is a big thing, that's the inspiration, the nutrients in the creative bloodstream.
For instance, the first time I saw Wally Wood's best work, it was a revelation—probably similar to what a weeb artist experiences when they first see Toriyama or whoever. I was like "THIS IS MY SOUL!"
And then there's the process of studying their work—classic comic artists actually copied their favorites to learn (by making studies in their sketchbooks). It goes beyond just learning fundies, you need to find your comic gods and then analyze them.

[Anonymous No.5104549]

Good thread. I'm not big on capeshit but i've recently been really enjoying Jack Cole's Plastic Man stuff. Such solid cartooning. Wish i could find a higher res version of this pic.

[Anonymous No.5104667]

Will Eisner is for me the best american comics artist. The Spirit is a mandatory reading for anyone who enjoys the medium. Picrel is my favorite story of his.

[Anonymous No.5104684]

>>5092718
Based. My greatest inspiration.

[Anonymous No.5104694]

>>5089421
The French market is still great.

[Anonymous No.5105121]

>>5104549
Jack Cole is great. Here ya go.

[Anonymous No.5105136]

>>5105121
More Jack Cole

[Anonymous No.5105138]

>>5105136

[Anonymous No.5105140]

>>5105138

[Anonymous No.5105141]

>>5105140

[Anonymous No.5105143]

>>5105141

[Anonymous No.5105144]

>>5105143
A classic

[Anonymous No.5105214]

>>5104694
>: mathieu Lauffray
great draftsman but color and the printing fuck it up.

[Anonymous No.5105432]

>>5105121
Thanks anon. I'm enjoying all these Woozy stories that have him getting rejected by thots and then them being all over his dick once he gets a fat stack of cash.

[Anonymous No.5105466]

>>5102009
Would be down for this. I prefer the way Western comics stylise men over anime/manga so I’d love to study it alongside you guys.

[Anonymous No.5105641]

>>5105466
Yeah would be cool. I have folders full of stuff like this that I rarely post because most threads here are weeb-fests.

[Anonymous No.5105643]

>>5105641

[Anonymous No.5105650]

>>5105641
>>5105643
These are lovely

[Anonymous No.5105673]

http://dbimaginarte.blogspot.com/2014/01/alex-raymond-maestro-de-maestros.html
Lots of good images on here. I love the use of bold black shadows in old Western art

[Anonymous No.5106158]

If there's gonna be a western study general for comics, I recommend Heritage Auctions as a resource. They deal with auctioning original comic art and post very high resolution images of the pages, you can see down to the tiniest detail in the strokes. There's pages from every legend named in this thread and then some. You need an account to access the high res images of sold items, but it's free to make one and very worth it for studying.

[Anonymous No.5106210]

Hate netflix and the story kind of fell apart at the end, but Blood of Zeus had some nice "western anime" design

[Anonymous No.5106332]

>>5102009
Bumperooni dooni, we need a western general. The state of western comics and cartoons is depressing and we need to reinvigorate it.

[Anonymous No.5106888]

>>5105673
>http://dbimaginarte.blogspot.com/2014/01/alex-raymond-maestro-de-maestros.html
>>5106158
comicartfans.com has tons of originals of Raymonds as well as many others in standard and HighRes

[Anonymous No.5108871]

>>5105673
Look at this fucking crosshatching

[Anonymous No.5108888]

>>5108871
oh yeah

[Anonymous No.5108889]

>>5108871
also his lighting.
Wally Wood, also known for his lighting technique, probably spent a lot of time studying panels like this.

[Anonymous No.5108899]

For those interested in American comics, Cartoonist Kayfabe is a great YouTube channel. It's two cartoonists going through their favorite comics.
There's the expected capeshit and the occasional manga, but they cover the classics too. The latest was an EC Comics Artist's Edition that included Al Williamson (Alex Raymond's artistic heir).

[Anonymous No.5108988]

>>5108888
that pic is leonard starr.

[Anonymous No.5108989]

>>5108871
he did it with a brush, the asshole....my hero. BTW there was a book published a few yrs ago about him that sucks its all small images from the internet. Flesk publications isn't doing a new raymond book but they are doing an Al Williamson from his studio originals slated for release in march.

[Anonymous No.5109016]

>>5108988
My bad. Still kicks ass.

[Anonymous No.5109839]

>>5108988
I just read on the forum I saved it from that the panel is from Stan Drake's Juliet Jones (I mistitled it when I saved it). Drake was in the same car accident that killed Raymond (Drake survived).

https://digitalwebbing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168563

From what I've read there was a (friendly?) competition between the two, and Raymond was influential on Drake.

[Anonymous No.5111292]

Its a shame that no large comic company in america does black and white. The colorists ruin the art.

[Anonymous No.5111306]

>>5109839
>>5109839
Raymond was the basic inspiration for this style. Drake, Starr, Dan Barry, David Wright, Al Williamson (obviously), John Prentice, John Buscema, Alex Kotzky, Wally Wood, Ken bald, Jorge Longaron, Jose Luis Salinas, John Cullen Murphy (big ben bolt), Russ Manning, Steve Rude, Warren Tufts, to name a few. Raymond was one of the most imitated next to caniff. Drake was a huge influence on Neal Adams, I assume Neal was into Raymond but I never heard him mention him.

[Anonymous No.5111524]

American artists got fucked by business men and prudes, leaving capeshit as the only survivor.
By the 90s people stopped caring as they demanded edgier comics, but by then the demographic had shifted so hard any comic genres besides Action and capeshit barely existed.

There's strong demand for Romance, Mystery, and SoL comics (as seen with Webtoons) but publishers aren't willing to tap into that customer base and would rather spin their wheels publishing the same shlock that doesn't sell.

[Anonymous No.5113853]

>>5111524
What's that image supposed to be?

[Anonymous No.5114106]

>>5111292
This. I don't understand why American (or most western) comics always have such awful colouring. I found some of the original black and white images for Hewletts Tank Girl: The odyssey and it's some of his best work, not that you'd know looking at the coloured version.

[Anonymous No.5114111]

>>5114106
I honesty think it might just be that western colourists can into digital colouring. I've seen plenty of nice looking traditional stuff.

[Anonymous No.5114148]

>>5108871
>>5108888
done with brush, those hardcore mofos

[Anonymous No.5114319]

>>5103938
>Source on this.
That's gonna be hard to find, considering it's not true.

[Anonymous No.5114414]

>>5092423
There are more anime than Dragon Ball that has and are enjoying such international popularity, yes, though it may appear less so specifically to an US person, where some of the biggest anime in most other countries of the world are not that popular specifically in USA.

[Anonymous No.5114423]

Are there any good recent comics with good art, good character design, that aren't capeshit, and avoid that ugly generic capeshit coloring entirely? I only read a few modern manga like Made In Abyss those days and I am getting more into classic eurocomics and old-school manga.

[Anonymous No.5114500]

>>5114423
Honestly, no. And it's fucking sad. But I'll try to change that, but I obviously can't do it alone.

[Anonymous No.5114568]

>>5114106
you ever watch that Bill Perkins composition course from NMA, he talks about what I think is happening with coloring in comics, in that its creates a muddle between line,value form and color where with line and value is competing with color and form/value.

[Anonymous No.5114666]

>>5114423
just read euro stuff, you don't really need anything else

[Anonymous No.5114696]

The true peak of western comics

[Anonymous No.5114793]

>>5114423
Neil Gamin's Norse Mythology but I'm unsure how much would you like the coloring

[Anonymous No.5115032]

>>5114666
the coloring is starting to fuck that up too.

[Anonymous No.5115130]

>>5092423
>Other than Dragonball, I’m not sure an anime has ever enjoyed the international popularity these films have had.
Demon Slayer became an international phenomema out of fucking nowhere.

[Anonymous No.5115174]

>>5114696
based. Also Carl Barks of course.

[Anonymous No.5115241]

>>5115032
depends on what you read. a lot of the still do trad coloring.

>>5115130
>out of nowhere
>published in shonen jump

[Anonymous No.5115302]

>>5108899
They just did a video on the Landon School of Illustration, the correspondence course that Carl Barks and Roy Crane took early in life, among many other notables.

[Anonymous No.5115309]

Vintage Inkwell Academy is a pretty good resources along these lines. It's Library page is a great collection of the art books and resources the classic illustrators and cartoonists would've turned to
https://tvia.ingenuityserials.com/the-vintage-inkwell-library/

[Anonymous No.5115321]

>>5115241
Even by Jump manga standards, Demon Slayer's success is staggering. It's movie is the most successful in Japanese cinematic history.

[Anonymous No.5115374]

>>5102009
Western Illustration General-/wig/
>>5097121
Sounds like a good general OP. What else should be added?

[Anonymous No.5115921]

>>5115174
of course!

[Anonymous No.5115926]

>>5115174
I remember this episode from goblin slayer

[Anonymous No.5116022]

>>5115309
Wow, what a great resource! Thanks for posting.

[Anonymous No.5116306]

>>5089390
What kind of autistic faggot cares about this East vs. West YouTuber philosophy shit? I enjoy any comic, manga, manwha, manhua, video game, movie, book, or whatever work from any country given that it's good, insightful, and unique, I don't waste my time debating the historical merits of how 2D jap waifus are superior to gaijin capeshit when I could be drawing or reading stuff.
>pic related

[Anonymous No.5116380]

>>5116306
Weeaboos like to shit western styles and we can't do much because they always move the goalposts, in the end the trolling became sincere and people who works on western styles is becoming marginal so we need a niche were to nest.

[Anonymous No.5116461]

>>5116306
>>5116380
It's also to remember the classic strips and those artists left in the dust by the Superhero genre becoming the primary genre in American comics.

[Anonymous No.5116496]

>>5089390
>western heritage
pfffff HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Anonymous No.5116769]

>>5111524
>t. knows jack-shit about comic trends but has an opinion anyway

[Anonymous No.5117282]

>>5116306
It's not about east v. west. I enjoy manga, etc. too. It's just to focus on a rich tradition that's lost to much of the current generation. American comics once had a great diversity of genres and styles, and a bigger focus on craft, innovation and illustration. Learning about the tradition opens current artists to the possibilities.

[Anonymous No.5117291]

>>5089390
Heritage belongs to a museum, move on or stay behind

[Anonymous No.5117451]

>>5114423
>Are there any good recent
No.
Get into some black and white comics from the 80s and 90s.
>>5114666
Doesn't cut it anymore, satan.
>>5114696
>>5115174
I don't understand ducks, or comics about funny animals period. I think it requires a special kind of autism I don't have.

[Anonymous No.5117658]

>>5117291
Learning from tradition doesn't mean lack of innovation (look at a cartoonist like Chris Ware for example). Especially since many early comic strips were more formally inventive than contemporary ones.

[Anonymous No.5118094]

>>5117451
>I don't understand ducks, or comics about funny animals period.
There's not much to understand. From Aesop to Brer Rabbit to Felix the Cat to Bugs Bunny, it's a tradition and trope that allows storytellers to convey some truths in a whimsical, accessible way.

[Anonymous No.5118098]

>>5118094
I don't think autism enters into it until furries add their kinks to the equation. But I've heard Omaha the Cat Dancer is a good comic so what do I know?

[Anonymous No.5118362]

>>5117451
>I don't understand ducks, or comics about funny animals period.
The greatest comic strip of all time is a funny animal comic.
And no, most of ic wouldn't get it because it's not highly rendered animu artstation blizzard bullshit.

[Anonymous No.5119335]

John Gannam was a charming post-war illustrator of domesticity. Thanks to Steve Rude for turning me on to him.

[Anonymous No.5119411]

>>5117658
Most of the greats seem to revisit the old cartoonists. Is there anyone more recent than Ware that's about as great?
>>5118094
>>5118098
>>5118362
I take it back. I realized I like more funny animal comics than I realized. I guess I just don't like duck comics.

[Anonymous No.5119453]

>>5119411
Check out Al Columbia. His style suggests the classic Fleischer cartoons applied to horror. Talk about going back to the source for inspiration. And bringing it full circle to funny animals, Milton Knight is an artist worth looking it. He's most known for working on the Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog and Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat but he also made a couple funny animal comics. You can definitely see the influence of golden age animators in his work.

[Anonymous No.5121501]

>>5119453
>Al Columbia
I see Sienkiewicz and McKean, in his early stuff at least.

[Anonymous No.5121543]

Anime has changed very much since its beginning too. Realistic art isn't what solely defined western comics, but I do believe western comics of the past are better than those of the current.

>it's also about line work, colors, and medium.
Digital media has made everyone lazy whether east or west

[Anonymous No.5121561]

>>5089390

They don't get mention as much as people like Jack Kirby because when people talk about "comics" they tend to focus on comic "books" over "strips. Don't know what you mean with Alex Toth though, dude's far from forgotten.

[Anonymous No.5121587]

>>5121561
The reason Jack Kirby has an inordinate influence is because of the takeover of superhero comics. There's a whole other tradition of comic books largely forgotten by all but the hardcore fans—mainly horror, crime, sci-fi, humor and romance comics.
In the 60s two main lines of influences diverged in comics—Kirby/Marvel had a huge influence on the mainstream superhero genre, and the memory of EC Comics remained with underground artists.
Since the Marvel tradition is now ubiquitous in American popular culture, Kirby remains one of the few comic book historical figures (besides Stan Lee) the casual fan knows.

[Anonymous No.5121590]

>>5121561
The reason Jack Kirby has an inordinate influence is because of the takeover of superhero comics. There's a whole other tradition of comic books largely forgotten by all but the hardcore fans—mainly horror, crime, sci-fi, humor and romance comics.
In the 60s two main lines of influences diverged in comics—Kirby/Marvel had a huge influence on the mainstream superhero genre, and the memory of EC Comics remained with underground artists.
Since the Marvel tradition is now ubiquitous in American popular culture, Kirby remains one of the few comic book historical figures (besides Stan Lee) the casual fan knows. It remains for a new generation to rediscover the EC/multi-genre tradition and for great artists like Jack Davis and Wally Wood to become well known again.

[Anonymous No.5121634]

>>5121590
I was trying to read some comics from the 40s this past week. A lot of them only show up online in low quality, non-contiguous scans of magazines. But they weren't printed as chapters, they're partially self-contained pages, and you only get a couple pages per issue, and then the next couple issues are missing, and then you get another couple pages.
Aside from saying hey, this looks interesting, I wish I could have read it, there isn't much to do. How are people going to rediscover them exactly?

[Anonymous No.5121649]

>>5121634
>How are people going to rediscover them exactly?
We live in an embarrassment of riches for lovers of classic comics, because publishers are publishing classics for the first time in decades.
For those without money, there are sites that have most of the classics in good quality for free (readcomiconline.to).
If you have some money, then Fantagraphics has a great series that reprints many of the EC Classics by artists. You can also find other favorites by publishers like IDW. Check out Bud's Art Books for a selection of classic comics.
And if you have a good bit of money, you can consider an artist's edition. They're pricey (usually over 100, some much more because they're out of print), but they're some of the best investments I've made because they're HUGE, full scale productions of classic artists' work (which are the closest you might get to owning their original artwork, which is great to study as an artist).

[Anonymous No.5121654]

>>5121634
>How are people going to rediscover them exactly?
We live in an embarrassment of riches for lovers of classic comics, because publishers are publishing classics for the first time in decades.
For those without money, there are sites that have most of the classics in good quality for free (readcomiconline.to).
If you have some money, then Fantagraphics has a great series that reprints many of the EC Classics by artists. You can also find other favorites by publishers like IDW. Check out Bud's Art Books for a selection of classic comics.
And if you have a good bit of money, you can consider an artist's edition. They're pricey (usually over 100, some much more because they're out of print), but they're some of the best investments I've made because they're HUGE, full scale productions of classic artists' work (which are the closest you might get to owning their original artwork, which is great to study as an artist). aeindex.org has a lot of info about artist's editions.

[Anonymous No.5121839]

Everytime I read comics I'm going to pick up pages to post in these threads, sadly nothing good tonight, I decided to post this page from Future State, Harley Quinn but the whole issue has an interesting rendering and use of color but not much else, the stylization of the characters may be offputting for some.
Hopefully next time I'll have something better

[Anonymous No.5122724]

>>5121839
This does not look good.

[Anonymous No.5123285]

>>5122724
I know, it's hard to pick up good art from a weekly pull list
I bet you people won't like this page from Neil Gaiman's Norse Mythology either
>>5121634
>>5121654
Anon may find this site useful https://comicbookplus.com/

[Anonymous No.5123465]

>>5123285
>you people
I lean more toward the west, but everything's looking pretty shit, manga included.
>pic
Who is this artist? Not very good. The PCR stuff looks great, despite being digital.

[Anon123 No.5124077]

>>5089390

I'm going to be replying to this thread with a very BASED answer that I'm pretty sure a lot of the previous responses have brought up piecemeal.

Why is Manga and Anime simply more superior to Western cartoons and most especially comics? That answer is surprisingly simple.

Reason 1: American art is fucking stale. (Duh) The rest of the replies on the thread also say this. The classical Loomis style perpetuated by artists like Jim Lee, George Perez, Michael Turner (may he rest in peace), Stan Lee, and Jack Kirby are immensely out of date. I grew up reading comics made by these guys and yes, they were awesome and they have influenced me subconsciously as an artist.
Yet, the American comics industry became as stale as hardened cement, at least artistically. Sure, there are manga copycats here and there but they lack any authenticity and are clearly just trying to mirror a more popular and superior art form.

Reason 2: The reason for Manga and Anime's supremacy over the Western styles and mediums is quite obvious. They got them big waifu tiddies and hot sexy babes that are absent as fuck in most commercial American comics. Sure, the western world and more specifically, the USA is progressive as fuck nowadays but not in the way it appeals to hormonal teen boys (and gals). I don't think disabled trannies, Black landwhales, and Twitter garbage like Safespace and Snowflake. At least manga/anime have good looking gay and lesbian people.

# 3: This endless cement-hard LEFT WING political circle jerking that is injected in every fucking issue. Whether it be identity/woke politics, LGBT, Anti-Trump nonsense, or canceling famous Celebrities is beside the point. Can't we just have some quality entertainment? Who gives a shit about these issues anyway.

#4: Manga and its production, regardless of lack of color rarely disappoint. Read Berserk, Kingdom, Punpun, Jojo, and Vagabond. You''ll see what I mean. Western comic books rarely depict proper fight scenes.

[Anonymous No.5124127]

>>5124077
>The classical Loomis style perpetuated by artists like Jim Lee, George Perez, Michael Turner (may he rest in peace), Stan Lee, and Jack Kirby are immensely out of date.
None of those practiced the "classical Loomis style" and Stan Lee wasn't an artist.
>a bunch of political crap.
yawn
>manga great fight scenes, blah, blah, Beserk, Pupun, Vagabond, etc.
Yeah, I've read all those too—some are great, others overrated.
But this thread isn't about regurgitating the same old "east v. west" garbage. It's about acknowledging long forgotten western classic comics. And a key thing about these classic comics are that they had multiple genres (like manga does now) which appealed to a wider audience, and told fun, thrilling, pulpy stories read by working class folks (not just nerds). This alone would greatly improve contemporary American comics, which are almost synonymous with dreary, repetitive superhero stories.

[Anon123 No.5124260]

>>5124127
My bad. I misread the intentions of this thread. It was because OP was talking about why Anime and manga is such a dominant style caused me to think that it was THIS kind of thread. By all means I grew up on western comics and loved it. I just wanted express my disappointment with how those Western comics is to this day still out of date with production and story telling that manga is so great in doing. I mean look at mediocre, normie stuff like KnY getting a 100m copies sold!

But anyways, I agree. Western comics had a great tradition with many talented artists that spawned people like Jim Lee and Turner. I wanna say that if they want another golden and silver age, they gotta start taking pointers from manga.

[Anonymous No.5124283]

>>5117451
Especially with Barks and Rosa, the duck comics aren't really the typical funny animal comics. You have human-like characters represented by these figures like in a fable. On the same side the built-in unrealisticness of them being animals makes it easier to suspend disbelief in unrealistic scenes, at least that's what I think about it.

[Anonymous No.5124284]

>>5121654
when will they learn

[Anonymous No.5124295]

>>5121654
I know it's basically impossible but I wish they'd do an artist edition collection of the horror artists.

[Anonymous No.5124304]

>>5124295
Me too. I do have Wrightson's Swamp Thing Artifact Edition (which is similar to an Artist's Edition). Good shit.

[Anonymous No.5124319]

>>5121634
>The EC Comics Library (Fantagraphics)
https://www.comixology.com/The-EC-Comics-Library/comics-series/84026
>The EC Archives (Dark Horse)
https://www.comixology.com/The-EC-Archives/comics-series/131183
>Eerie Archives (Dark Horse)
https://www.comixology.com/Eerie-Archives/comics-series/3418
>Creepy Archives (Dark Horse)
https://www.comixology.com/Creepy-Archives/comics-series/2297
>Vampirella Archives (Dynamite)
https://www.comixology.com/Vampirella-Archives/comics-series/4754
>The Chilling Archives of Horror Comics (IDW)
https://www.comixology.com/Haunted-Horror/comics-series/8844

Use the product listings as reference and type them into libgen's comics search engine; getcomics may also have mirrors available too.

[Anonymous No.5124322]

>>5124319
Fantagraphics also has digital reprints of Alex Toth, Bill Everett, Fletcher Hanks, Mort Meskin, Steve Ditko and Wallace Wood's work. Ironically, Marvel's been really good at digitizing their old shit (I wish I could say the same for DC); the Atlas Era Masterworks might be of interest.

[Anonymous No.5124343]

>>5121590
>the memory of EC Comics remained with underground artists
That reminds me: I really want to get into Robert Crumb, but Fantagraphics' trade paperback reprints fetch a pretty penny, and their Zap Comix hardcover set costs an arm and a leg. Last Gasp has done reprints issue by issue, but they don't have much in stock either. I suppose when you're represented by art dealers like David Zwirner you can afford not to have your work available digitally. I've been enjoying Fantagraphics' reprints of Spain Rodriguez' work, though.

[Anonymous No.5124352]

>>5124343
here ya go, they're incomplete, but a start:
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/The-Complete-Crumb-Comics
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Zap-Comix

[Anonymous No.5124391]

>>5102009
yes please

[Anonymous No.5124550]

>>5123285
That page is pretty bad, terrible linework. Digital really has made artists lazy

[Anonymous No.5126476]

>>5124077
>>5124260
>Jim Lee
>Michael Turner
Not good artists. Turner in particular (RIP) was pretty bad. There have been a lot of far greater artists in the west that you manga-only fags never seem to mention. It's because you don't even try to read.

[Anonymous No.5127238]

>>5124343
>I've been enjoying Fantagraphics' reprints of Spain Rodriguez' work, though.
Hell yeah, I've discovered Rodriguez's work recently too.

[Anonymous No.5127248]

>>5127238
v03 just got ripped and posted to /co/ win-o; be sure to download!

[Anonymous No.5127302]

>>5126476
Jim Lee is responsible for all the awful artists we have now who grew up copying capeshit, as opposed to silver age artists who were familiar with the fundamentals of traditional illustration, and could even get work in the commercial art business.

[Anonymous No.5127906]

>>5127302
>Jim Lee is responsible
perhaps when he became art director at DC, but before that it was their choice to copy his style. He does know his fundamentals and he is a good draftsman. Like that Finch dude whos style is in my opinion ugly. I've been looking at a lot of manga too and in terms of craft much of it is horrible, but the appeal is superficial in terms of art. It is very stylish but bad fundies as the kids call it. Though their stories are for the present superior to the west, thanks to the sjw shit and superhero dominance. Though both east and west have brilliant creators and shitty ones its discerning it through knowledge and avoiding the normie trends.

[Anonymous No.5127908]

>>5089390

Nothing compared to Ralph Bakshi

[Anonymous No.5128191]

>>5127908
Bakshi himself would tell you that's bullshit. Incidentally, his interview on Cartoonist Kayfabe is worth watching. He talks about Frazetta intimidating his animators while working on Fire and Ice.

[Anonymous No.5129779]

>>5127908
I do like me some Bakshi

[Anonymous No.5132247]

>>5089390
American comics got Jewed in the 50s

[Anonymous No.5132250]

page 10 bump

[Anonymous No.5132353]

>>5132247
The best comic books in history were produced by Jews. God bless the Jews.

[Anonymous No.5132939]

>>5132247
not one jew in my initial list son.

[Anonymous No.5133185]

>>5089572
>for half a decade
Much longer than that, probably since the late 80s, especially in France.

[Anonymous No.5135122]

>>5116769
He's not wrong. A bunch of publishers folded due to the Comics Code Authority, and anything that wasn't capes or Archie pretty much vanished. Seduction of the Innocent totally fucked the American comics market, and while they were dicking around with capeshit, Japan and France went about maturing the genre. Even now the American market is still only starting to diversify into genres that aren't capeshit, at least as far as traditional publishing goes.

[Anonymous No.5135774]

>>5089572
>Wakfu
>Dofus
France's studio ghibli
Ffs they should really be more popular in the west

[Anonymous No.5135791]

>>5135774
https://youtu.be/PK5q0oGRzTU
This should have really gotten an anime

[Anonymous No.5135879]

>>5135122
Romance and mystery comics survived past the Comics Code (albeit sanitized) and died off decades after the Code was established.
The graphic also ignores all non-Code comics that reached wide popularity during various decades, like Comix during the 60's, B/W indie boom during the 80's, Direct Market comics starting from the 70's that specifically allowed comics to circumvent the Code, among others. The American market has a lot of good stuff, it's just that most people assume comics=superheroes and don't bother checking out anything else.
Similarly, that graphic's idea of manga decades center around whatever is the most popular shounen of the time (with a few exceptions like LWaC and Sailor Moon). It's misleading in every way.

[Anonymous No.5136245]

>>5119453
I went and read some Al Columbia comics. Interesting stuff, but I hate that most of his work is scattered everywhere, in different anthologies and magazines.
>>5124283
I can suspend disbelief already if they're cartoony, but the fact that they're cartoony and animals is weird to me, unless their animal nature allows for a lot of added substance.

[Anonymous No.5136784]

I'll be honest, as a person who's mostly just read manga, coming into western comics has been very refreshing.
Every weeb should give it a shot.
The grounded storylines and characters are a nice change of pace, and the dialogue also comes off as way more natural because it's actually written with the english language in mind.

[Anonymous No.5136787]

>>5136784
Can you give any recs? I don't like how modern digital stuff looks so the more older the better

[Anonymous No.5136802]

>>5136787
There have already been plenty of artists alread posted in this thread but I'll name Daniel Clowes.
The character designs are freakishly ugly and everybody looks like a caricature but that's the charm of it and it compliments his writing very well.
Read Art School Confidential. It's only 4 pages.
They other great thing about Western Comics compared to most manga is that they're brutally honest and don't bullshit the reader with blind optimism. I fucking love it, they're not depressing or anything they're just very chuckle worthy.

[Anonymous No.5137132]

>>5136784
Seconding this. Used to read exclusively manga and then got into western comics, it's a great change of pace and really opens you up to stories you wouldn't have experienced otherwise.
East and west, not east vs west.

[Anonymous No.5137810]

>>5136787
>>5136802
Yes Clowes is good, I've only read Like a Velvet Glove cast in Iron, David Boring and Patience but I recommend them all very strongly

[Anonymous No.5140340]

>>5136802
>They other great thing about Western Comics compared to most manga is that they're brutally honest and don't bullshit the reader with blind optimism.
Its a result of realism, though it has swung in the opposite direction where many western comics leave you want to slit your wrists afterward, I think the writer but said (paraphrasing) the effect of post-modernism on storytelling led to optimism as being seen as foolish that let to a lack of honesty in storytelling. I think this lack of optimism may be one of the reasons manga is doing so well. There is a need for escapism but if you end up feeling the same in this world as you do in the world you are escaping to then what have you done? It is a difference between the two cultures the west need optimism but honest optimism, it suffers from extremes more so than the east I believe (though I could be wrong).

[Anonymous No.5140343]

>>5140340
>I think the writer
I cant remember his name off hand sorry.