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4065206 No.4065206 [Reply] [Original]

Howdy /ic/

I have a doubt about which color system is the best and what's the difference between Munsell Color System and Pantone.

Both companies were acquired by Xrite, so this company owns everything now.

I know that the Munsell Color System is the basis of how to see colors. But what's difference between that and Pantone?

I know that Pantone became really popular in the 2000's because of a lot of marketing stunts and the popularization of Apple and graphic design.

But the only real advantage I see, is the fact that Pantone can translate CMYK to printer really well. And the good sounding names they give to colors, some, which are tie-ins with brands. Again, I see too much marketing there.

Why not only use CMYK?
What's its realation with Munsell CS? Is it based on it?

Not sure if it's a /gd/ or /ic/, since it's related to both, so I'm posting in both boards.

>> No.4065268

Munsell is geared more towards artists but it's just normal color theory with added bullshit to make it sound smart
Pantone is just a system to formulate inks in printing.
Why are you asking this? is the normal color wheel not enough for you?

>> No.4065281

>>4065268
>with added bullshit to make it sound smart
what kind of bullshit?

>Why are you asking this? is the normal color wheel not enough for you?
I'm interested in the theory of it.

>> No.4065282

>>4065268
>Pantone is just a system to formulate inks in printing.
Why not just use CMYK?

>> No.4065295

>Why not only use CMYK?
Idk are you ever going to print it?? It's a pretty limited color palette. No need go work with those limitations unless you want it printed.
/thread

>> No.4065296

>>4065295
>/thread
no

What kind of bullshit you were talking about?
It looks pretty good to me.

>> No.4065301

>>4065281
>what kind of bullshit?
obsolete ideas on how the brain and eyes perceives color and how to use the notation to get better palettes but that can easily be done without their notation system
>I'm interested in the theory of it.
Formal color system are a novelty more than anything in these days
>>4065282
>Why not just use CMYK?
Pantone has more inks and therefore more colors
The CMYK process is very muddy and all the intended alternatives have tried to address this.

>> No.4065313

>>4065301
I see, thanks anon.

Any color theory book that you recommend?

I'm studying this one: http://www.huevaluechroma.com/index.php

and then I'll go with this: https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/wcolor.html

>> No.4065318

>>4065313
Those two will have you covered tho Betty Edwards Book on Color Theory may help you too

>> No.4065321

>>4065296
Until you try to paint anything in green. Take OP pic and paste it into a CMYK document, you'll see what i mean.

>> No.4065324

>>4065313
>>4065318
Just after I made this post I remember about Johannes Itten, his books on color are really good too

>> No.4065331

>>4065318
>>4065324
Thanks anon.

>>4065321
I see.

So can I use RGB with Pantone?

>> No.4065336

>>4065331
>So can I use RGB with Pantone?
Wat? No. Pantone is a color palette developed for printing. Are you interested in printing your artwork? No? Then I don't see why you should limit yourself to a color palette made for printers.

>> No.4065342

>>4065336
If I understood correctly, the printer colors are pretty much like traditional media colors, so, I believe that there are some colors you can't really reproduce with RGB, so I like this idea of using colors that can be replicated with a physical media.

>> No.4065351

>>4065342
You got it wrong. There are colors that you can show in RGB, but not in CMYK. CMYK is not for colors as they are used in traditional media, it's literally just for printers who have no inks other than cyan, yellow, magenta and black. Take the lime and blue colors from RGB palette - you can't translate those into CMYK.

>> No.4065353

>>4065351
I see. It makes sense. Thanks anon.

>> No.4066873

>>4065351
>Take the lime and blue colors from RGB palette - you can't translate those into CMYK.
I got close one at the shop I work at- it was 100% yellow, with somewhere between 3%-10% blue. Looked like ass, but the client, who was a skinflint who didn't want to spring for offset agreed that it was a valiant effort. We've been working with him on and off since.

>> No.4067134

>>4065281
Pantone isn't theory. Pantone is a matching system, that prints a defined color using specific percentages, so if I want my company logo printed in Pantone 541, I can send black and white art to any press in the world that has a Pantone ink mixing system, and that blue will match the color swatches in my swatch book. It's predictable color.

Munsell was a pre-cursor to the LAB color models that are used today. That's theory. It can be used as the underlying model a digital display system can use, but it's not a printing system.

>> No.4067142

>>4065282
Because some colors are outside of the CMYK gamut. CMYK is a limited gamut compared to RGB.
But the real use is for predictable, accurate color. For instance, say I'm the in house designer for a large corporation. Our logo uses Pantone 541 (a blue). So when I get business cards and letterhead and brochures and such printed, I have it done with the logo set as a 5th color plate for CYMK printing, because 541 doesn't separate accurately in CYMK, or I have black text and a Pantone 541 logo run, on a two color press. (Cheaper than running a job like that on a massive CMYK Heidelberg). I can also send my files all over the country, and outside, if the presses I work with support Pantone, and I know that blue will be the right one.
CMYK is a powerful printing process, and it has limitations, especially calling out specific color values and having that accuracy maintained across all printing platforms - and Pantone is easy, fast, and accurate. And, if the CMYK shifts during the press run (it can happen), running a 5th plate of a pantone callout maintains that accuracy. There are other issues it addresses, like ink coverage and such, but that's more than I want to type out.

>> No.4067144

>>4065301
>Formal color system are a novelty more than anything in these days
Laughably untrue.
>Pantone has more inks and therefore more colors
Pantone has around 1000 specific colors you can call out. CMYK has millions, theoretically. But the intent is different, and you clearly have no clue about any of it.

>> No.4067147

>>4065331
>So can I use RGB with Pantone?
You can use approximations of Pantone values on-screen, but some are simply not going to display correctly. You can get the RGB/CMYK/Hex/web values and use them in Photoshop, but I'm not sure why you'd want to. Pantone is a physical system of reflective color, RGB is transmissive color and has a vastly bigger gamut than Pantone, why would you limit yourself, unless your intent is printing? And, if you print pantone values plugged into Photoshop, those colors will be corrected to whatever colorspace the driver is using, like for a home ink jet, or converting them through color lookup tables (CLUT) in Photoshop for a specific color space for a specific printing system.

You're reinventing the wheel with a square one, that doesn't spin.

>> No.4067291
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4067291

Left is RGB, right is CMYK. Say you want the blue of the CMYK to look exactly the same anywhere, you use a pantone swatch that matches that blue so the printers will mix and print that color precisely.

>> No.4068101
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4068101

>>4067291
No. Replacing cyan with a Pantone in a 4 color separation would be a complete waste of time and money. You have no clue how Pantone is used, please stop spreading misinformation, you are not qualified to explain printing systems.

Pantones are SPOT COLOR. They are used for color matching consistency as a single color, not for accuracy in CMYK separations. If I handed files over to a prepress department replacing the cyan channel in that image with a Pantone, I'd be laughed at, and fired for being incompetent at my job.

Here is how Pantone would be used in a typical application - four color separation for the image, and a called out Pantone for a fifth printing plate using Pantone 541.

This is part of what i do for a living. This is how it works.

>> No.4068129
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4068129

>>4067134
>>4067142
>>4067147

Yes, it makes sense.

I'll start to make gouaches using some tutorials I'm seen on internet.

Do you know if there's a guide to match the Pantone colors?

It's getting very interesting.

>>4068101
I see, so that's why a lot of people make their own color by mixing the color, and not by using a certified Pantone printer.

How accurate is a Pantone certified printer?

I checked the books, by they're too high priced, if the printers are accurate to print, let's say, 1000+ colors I wouldn't need to buy the book.

The Munsell Pantone book is 1000 dollars+!

I'm reading this PDF and I getting very interested in printing my own book. With something like this, creating swatches would be a breeze.

I'm thinking about taking notes when mixing pigments so I can create formulas for the different mixings. Creating a precise pallet like this would be great.

Do you know if there're formulas/recipes to mix watercolors and gouache according to Pantone colors?

I'm really into gouache/watercolors, specially because it can also be used with dip pens.

Here's the link/guide to print your own Munsell Pantone book:
http://www.munsellcolourscienceforpainters.com/HowToPrintAMunsellBook.pdf

>> No.4068142
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4068142

>>4068129
Not sure what you mean by matching but if you're thinking of printing for real, I suggest you get one of these. They're on Pantone's website as far as I remember
>Do you know if there're formulas/recipes to mix watercolors and gouache according to Pantone colors?
Bro. For the last time. It's. For. Printers. Only.

>> No.4068153

>>4068142
>Bro. For the last time. It's. For. Printers. Only.
I understand, but isn't there some way to match both?

> Find the Pantone colors that you want to use.
> Mix the pigments to get that color.

>> No.4068155

>>4068129
>Do you know if there's a guide to match the Pantone colors?
Not that I'm aware of, and I can't think of a single reason why you'd want to.

>How accurate is a Pantone certified printer?
Pretty accurate, that's what the entire system was designed for.

>I checked the books, by they're too high priced, if the printers are accurate to print, let's say, 1000+ colors I wouldn't need to buy the book.

I don't understand what you're saying. Pantone ink mixing is ink that mixed at the press, when it's used by the job. The Pantone system isn't a printer, like an ink jet, or a book, it's a complete system. A designer buys a swatch book, for reference. The printer has a print mixing room, with Pantone formulas and the base Pantone colors (I believe there's 16), and the ink mixer makes ink when it's needed.

If you're talking about the swatch books, yes, they're pricey, but they're accurate, because each color swatch is printed with that exact ink formula. And it's why designers need to replace them, because they fade over time. And you need the book, because your monitor can't display them accurately. I know a handful of Pantone colors, that I can call out with a certain sense of confidence, but not all 1000+ colors - so I have a swatch book.

>Do you know if there're formulas/recipes to mix watercolors and gouache according to Pantone colors?

Again, I don't know why you'd want to.

And, the Munsell book is not a Pantone book. You cannot accurately print Pantone colors on a retail ink jet printer. You can't.

I half think you're just trolling to fuck with people, because you don't really make any sense. Or you just have a completely misguided idea of how all of it works. You're not being rude, so I'm not, but I simply can't understand what you're doing, or trying to accomplish. If your goal is to mix accurate Pantone values for a dip pen...well, I guess it will fill the hours in the day? Have fun trying?

>> No.4068156

>>4068153
>I understand, but isn't there some way to match both?
Why would you want to?

>> No.4068166

>>4068155
>I don't understand what you're saying.
They have Pantone calibrated printers. I said certified, but I meant calibrated, I confused with the other page.

https://store.pantone.com/uk/en/printers

That PDF has a guide to that with an offset printer.

>>4068156
I like to use some specific colors for consistence, I want to do the same with mixed media.

>> No.4068184

>>4068155
>And, the Munsell book is not a Pantone book.
I'm talking about these books:

https://munsell.com/color-products/color-communications-products/munsell-books-and-sheets/
https://www.pantone.com/products/munsell/munsell-book-of-color-matte-edition

Here you can download a PDF optimized for printing on laser/offset Pantone certified printers: https://store.pantone.com/uk/en/printers/index/search/?printer_id=291

This PDF is for HP Color LaserJet M775.

So what do I mean?

I want to print a Munsell book using a Pantone certified printer.
This guide tells you how to do so: http://www.munsellcolourscienceforpainters.com/HowToPrintAMunsellBook.pdf

But I'm not sure how accurate an printer like this is compared to the official thing.

If it can accurately print 1000+ colors, it's good enough.

Then I'll try to mix the gouaches and the watercolors to get specific Pantone colors that I can choose from the Swatches.

But if the printer can accurately print almost every color or get close enough, than it'll more than worth invest in one.

Also I believe that the colors from the books will degrade with time, so I'm not sure if it's worth to invest U$1000 in it.

>> No.4068193

>>4068166
>They have Pantone calibrated printers.
No, they don't.

That's a fundamental misunderstanding you have. Pantone inks are specific, special use case inks that are mixed at a press. A desktop printer, or even commercial high end inkjet printer cannot match Pantones. They approximate it. That link you have is for soft proofing by designers and press professionals, not final output. They're CLUTs "so that the customer can get the best possible representation" - their words. Not MATCH.

You're cherry picking professional tools, without understanding how they're used, and what they're used for, for this strange goal of yours. It's square peg and round hole time, or reinventing the wheel as a square. To say your understanding of professional printing and proofing tools is profoundly misguided is putting it mildly. I'm willing to explain how it works, because a lot of anons here should know the basics, since one of the goals of an illustrator/commercial artist will be printing work, but...honestly, just forget Pantone exists. You're trying to apply it in a way that makes no sense at all.

>I like to use some specific colors for consistence, I want to do the same with mixed media.
Well, have fun with that. It's a rabbit hole nobody else needs to go down, and again, if you have fun trying, no harm done. You could try finding paint pigment that closest matches the base Pantone inks, and build from there, but I'm not interesting in figuring out how for you, if it's even possible, so good luck to you.

(Hint - Pantone isn't going to tell you how to match their base ink pigments, because that would be giving their trade secrets away.)

>> No.4068197

>>4068184
>But I'm not sure how accurate an printer like this is compared to the official thing.
It's not. Let's just stop there. It's for soft proofing, for designers and press professionals.

>> No.4068200

>>4068193
>That's a fundamental misunderstanding you have. Pantone inks are specific, special use case inks that are mixed at a press.
I understood that. I've seen a video, a guy from /gd/ explained to me how it works. That's not what I'm talking about.

>>4068193
>You're cherry picking professional tools, without understanding how they're used, and what they're used for, for this strange goal of yours.

Oh please, get out of your high horse.

>>4068193
>Well, have fun with that. It's a rabbit hole nobody else needs to go down, and again, if you have fun trying, no harm done.
Don't be condescending, it's ugly.

>> No.4068205

>>4068200
OP confirmed for troll. Or retard. Or both

>> No.4068206

>>4068200
Ah, i see. Now you're getting ugly, because I won't entertain your strange idea.

Well, that's all the (you)s for you. I tried. Now feel free to go fuck yourself.

>> No.4068208 [DELETED] 

>>4068205
>>4068205
confirmed a condescending smug.

>> No.4068239

>>4068205
>>4068206
confirmed a condescending smug.

>> No.4068263

Oh, how adorable, now I'm "condescending guy" over on /GD. LOL

Fucking 4chan.

>> No.4068290

>>4068263
What do you mean?
Are you the guy on the /gd/ thread and who also did this post >>4068193?

If so, it was a misunderstanding of my part. If not, I think that >>4068193 was very condescending.

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