Problems with Gesture drawing

[Anonymous No.3368915]

I have extreme issues with gesture. I know I should be capturing movement, but I have major problems maintaining any semblance of form or proportions while doing so. Starting from scratch, what should I be doing?

[Anonymous No.3368943]

Anon IMO its ok when you are just starting to have a non proportioned gesture. You can fix that later when you add the manequinn on top.

Eventually, you will have a sense of proportion later on if you keep doing gesture alongside measuring. It just takes alot of time tho

[Anonymous No.3368976]

>>3368915
Drawn to life vol1 + 2, read it and practice until you really get it.

[Anonymous No.3369001]

>>3368915
Just keep doing it and you'll get better. Search "Draw This" on youtube. They have great vids for gesture drawing

[Anonymous No.3369015]

>>3368915
creme confirmed for shitters

[Anonymous No.3369021]

>>3369015

Ironic coming from team "chocolate"

[Anonymous No.3369053]

>>3369021
you will feel my cock in your ass.

[Anonymous No.3369076]

>>3368915
I keep reminding myself of these three things when I sketch:

It's easier to make a construction fit the gesture than it is to give gesture to a construction.

You are not married to your sketch. You can keep tweaking everything as you go.

Subdividing larger shapes gives you better control over proportions than trying to draw shapes individually.

[Anonymous No.3369080]

>>3369076
fuckoff egghead

[Anonymous No.3369086]

>>3368976
I wouldn't recommend Drawn to Life to a beginner. It's more of an intermediate or even advanced book, because getting any kind of results with the drawing methods that Stanchfield teaches is going to be extremely difficult if the artist doesn't have at least some proficiency in being able to draw figures from imagination. Not saying the methods and philosophy aren't good, Drawn to Life is probably one of the best art books ever for somebody who wants to do cartooning/anime, but the does very little for the student to teach all the fundamental basic knowledge that is required to draw the way that he wants the student to draw. All in all only a couple pages is spent on only mentioning this stuff.

I'm sure that a beginner will still get a lot out of the books, especially when it comes to philosophy and mindset, but I think there are more worthwhile sources to go for to gain more immediate and fundamental improvement as a beginner, such as Edwards, Dodson, Nicolaïdes, Vilppu, Loomis, Hampton.

[Anonymous No.3369087]

>>3369086
Forgot to mention, it also really makes sense for those books to be meant for more advanced students, after all they're lecture notes for Disney animators, when he was writing the notes, he was doing so with the understanding that he is dealing with somewhat skilled students

[Anonymous No.3369170]

>>3369086
Do you have any sources on Drawn to Life?

[Anonymous No.3369509]

Someone didn’t study their Vilppu.

[Anonymous No.3369885]

Do NOT study gesture from Proko. His anatomy course is good, but don't touch gesture.

[Anonymous No.3369887]

>>3369885
That means proko himself is shit tho. I've seen how bad his poses are.

[Anonymous No.3369893]

>>3369885
How the fuck did he interpret the spine swooping upwards and not downwards? The lines and simplicity are there, but that's not the weight of the pose at all.

[Anonymous No.3369910]

>>3368915

You're a beg and I'm not saying this to offend you. Just accept this and don't beat yourself too much about it. Not gonna lie, for 1-2 years you're going to struggle with gesture, and no amount of books is going to help you. There are only 2 things that can help you:

1. Watch pros do gesture studies.
2. Do gesture studies everyday

Gesture is an intuitive process, in essence gesture is the simultaneous application of form, anatomy, rhythm, perspective, and design. Your gesture is only as good as your weakest link in the fundamentals. The reason why your gesture doesn't match human proportion accurately is because of the following:

1. Can't do perspective properly, you're going to struggle with foreshortening
2. Don't know the forms of the body
3. Don't know proper anatomy

To remedy this, just do studies of the things you lack and you're going to improve. Remember, it's hard at first but it's going to get easier. I recommend watching Karl Gnass, whom I consider to be the best gesture artist, and Jeff Watts' Quick sketch studies on youtube, it'll help out in terms of visualizing what good gesture sketches look like, but don't ever think that there's ever a secret formula or technique to gesture.

[Anonymous No.3369922]

>>3369885
Yeah I agree, his gestures are too bland.

>>3369893
>How the fuck did he interpret the spine swooping upwards and not downwards? The lines and simplicity are there

For the rhythm of the head that's looking up to the side. Look how the spine of his gesture follows the head.

>but that's not the weight of the pose at all.
That's not the point of gesture.

[Anonymous No.3369993]

>>3369922
It's not 'the' point of gesture, but that doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to many gesture drawings.

And I see how he was following the head, but it contradicts the tilt of the torso and line following the linea alba/spine. Plus it feels like it's ignoring S-rhythms.

[Anonymous No.3370055]

>>3369885
I like his kangaroos to be honest

[Anonymous No.3370140]

>>3368915
Are you drawing slow? Draw really slow. Feel what you're doing as you go along, always asking "does this feel right?" Gesture is not supposed this wild fast process where you just scribble some lines and the gesture comes out. In fact, one of the most important things that gesture teaches you is how to clearly communicate an idea with a minimal number of elements (i.e., just a few lines and curves). You can only achieve that kind of efficiency of expression with an intentional, methodical approach.

[Anonymous No.3370147]

>>3369885
Yeah Proko's gestures are shit lol. Vilppu and Hampton both put him to shame.

[Anonymous No.3370901]

>>3369885
wtf i thought proko being shit was just a meme, how does one fuck up like that?

[Anonymous No.3371309]

>>3369885
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j39NqwL7s4
Is this video at least good enough? I'm about to start learning how to study gesture but I don't even know how to start.

[Anonymous No.3371320]

>>3369885
How about his construction? I worked through his robo bean videos a while ago and couldn't understand how he saw the torso rotating into some directions, didn't know if it's my lack of knowledge, him making mistakes, or exaggeration.

[Anonymous No.3371329]

>>3371309
Watch how Vilppu does it instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa_2rL1K1mg

[Anonymous No.3371334]

>>3371329
Guess I'll watch both but give him the preference.

[Anonymous No.3371341]

>>3371309
proko's gesture is retarded and makes no sense
dont fall for the meme dont get beaned

[Anonymous No.3371372]

>>3369885

There are two schools of thought on gestures, and Proko's example shows the weakness of one of them.

The first kind is the method championed by the likes of Vilppu and Hampton, and used by animators. Vilppu may tell you to feel the form, but what he's doing is capturing the true skeletal posture of the figure in an abstract way.

Proko's method is what is used by classical artists who always draw from models. Their gestures are the lowest points or the average of the entire body contour. This is just fine for drawing from reference, but it doesn't retain any real information about the pose itself. He is essentially skipping a step.

If Proko were asked to continue to develop that gesture into a drawing, but without the model/reference, he wouldn't be able to replicate anything close to it. His drawing from imagination video is damning evidence of it.

[Anonymous No.3371457]

>>3371372
So while one (proko's) sort of works as a guideline for a drawing from reference, the other sets up the tone and look of the overall figure?

[Anonymous No.3371480]

>>3369885
Is this a Kangaroo?

[Anonymous No.3371483]

>>3371480
It all makes sense now...

[Anonymous No.3371552]

>>3371372
I think you just put to words why I really hate the Reilly method for figure drawing.

[Anonymous No.3371646]

>>3369076
>>3369910
>>3370140

Thanks everyone, already seeing some improvement. Specifically the advice from those above.
>Karl Gnass
Holy shit he's amazing.
Why is it I can only ever find Proko and Jazza's shit video's when I search for help on Youtube.

[Anonymous No.3372079]

>>3371320
Proko's anatomy and construction teaching is fine, of course there are better teachers out there, but his free course is still a good foundation

[Anonymous No.3372102]

"Force" from Mattesi is also pretty nice for gesture

[Anonymous No.3372118]

>>3368915
>>3368915
>>3368915

[Anonymous No.3372315]

>>3371372
So what you're saying is that Proko does pure gesture while Vilppu does a mix of gesture and construction, and at the same time that pure gesture is useless?

[Anonymous No.3372471]

>>3368915

Took me a while to figure out/understand gesture. Theres honestly a lot of different approaches to gesture and part of getting good at it is finding a style that works for you.

My two biggest tips for gesture are
>Draw A LOT
>Draw FAST

Drawing a lot is an obvious one, but fill 4 pages of gestures a day and you'll start to see improvement pretty quick. You'll get better at calculating proportion. Also a lot of drawing is mechanical, training your hand with the pen/pencil.

Drawing FAST really helped me with gesture. Find a way to simplify the figure and draw it completely in 30 seconds or less. Also, its probably against what is preached here at /ic/ but i practice a lot w/o reference for gesture; draw from imagination. Finding enough references, timing and and switching quickly between them was inefficient for me.

Seriously, just go nuts drawing the figure; Go quick, fill pages and it'll start to make sense. then when you move on to references and studies you'll find that the proportions are burned into your head.

[Anonymous No.3372498]

>>3372471
Post work

[Anonymous No.3372513]

>>3368915
This is gonna sound counter intuitive, but I think doing longer drawings that emphasize simplifying or constructing the body is gonna help you more than just drawing more gestures.

[Anonymous No.3372529]

>>3372498
sure. this ones from a few weeks ago. Before i get flamed i'll say that obviously i still got a long way to go. But i was drawing chicken scratchy as fuck a few weeks ago, and everytime i tried to draw the figure it looked static as fuck. So even though i'm still shitty, i'm much happier and actually feel like ive improved by doing gestures this way(as i described)

[Anonymous No.3372533]

>>3372529

[Anonymous No.3372536]

>>3372533
cant figure out this rotation shit.

[Anonymous No.3372538]

>>3372536

[Anonymous No.3372548]

>>3372538
Last one, heres a little bit of a more refined figure study.

Also meant to say that drawing in pen helped me A LOT with line quality.
My lines are still kinda shaky, proportions are a bit off and i still have trouble drawing hands, feet, legs and everything else....But at least it doesnt look like chicken scratches with a million wrong lines.
Better to try to get one OK line than lay down 10 shitty unsure lines.

But my main point in all this is just find whatever method and style works for you, and practice it a lot, and you'll improve. Dont do shit you dont like or you think is boring; that will fuck you over in the long run.

[Anonymous No.3372685]

>>3372315

No. What I'm saying is that Proko's gestures are based on observed 2D contours with little consideration for the posture. His gestures clearly disagree with the actual pose, as everyone here can see with their own eyes.

If you can capture posture in your gestures, you can recreate the rest of the body's rhythms from knowledge and imagination rather reliably. The true test of any of these gestural and construction systems is to draw a figure from scratch, and we already know how lacking his skills are in this area.

[Anonymous No.3372698]

>>3372548
>>3372529
There's no flow in any of your sketches. But I'm glad you see improvement and are able to draw faster than you previously could.

I recommend you try slowing down and carefully think about the pose you're seeing before starting to sketch. Your drawings could be interesting to look at but I don't think what you're doing is fully intentional, which stems from your lack of experience.

[Anonymous No.3372700]

hey guys i run a discord server where i've been doing daily figure drawing with a couple of buds.
https://discord.gg/Pt6BKp6
it's not meant to be used as your primary art server though because it's only in use when a stream is starting. because of this, we do not have reference/critique channels, but feel free to give useful pointers when you join one of our figure drawing sessions. we stream figure drawing videos through the watchtogether site and talk in vc as the video plays. please note that you will be notified through the @everyone tag when a stream happens and ONLY if a stream happens.

my work:
https://www.instagram.com/gs95draws/
https://gs95.tumblr.com/

[Anonymous No.3372710]

Can I use "if I look at this after some time, can I still understand what pose it is supposed to be?" as a rule to gauge my progress? Because 15 minutes after what I just made I can't tell what the fuck this is anymore.

[Anonymous No.3372711]

>>3372700
also i don't think i have to say this but please keep critiques helpful instead of just shit talking the other person. telling someone their entire pose is shit won't help them, recommending a textbook might be a bit helpful, but telling them that they missed certain landmarks or something immediately useful is probably the best way to go.

also these sessions usually run for about 2 hours. you're free to leave/join in at anytime, but the entire thing is a pretty big time commitment. we've been doing 2 sessions a day for the past few days.

[Anonymous No.3372715]

>>3372711
*For like a week now

[Anonymous No.3372721]

>>3372715
hey man we only did 1 figure session yesterday

[Anonymous No.3372765]

>>3372698
>There's no flow in any of your sketches
What do you mean by this tho?

>I recommend you try slowing down and carefully think about the pose you're seeing before starting to sketch.
Only the last one is from reference, the other are from imagination.
Thats good advice though. On the last drawing, or when im going for a study(as opposed to gesture), I do go slower and try to think before i lay down lines.


> Your drawings could be interesting to look at
This is what im going for desu. I try to do pretty or realistic every now and then(as exercises, challenges, practice) but for me interesting/different > realistic/"right"

>I don't think what you're doing is fully intentional, which stems from your lack of experience.
I'd say you're right. I do think i'm making more intentional lines though, which is what im happy about. Some of it is also the philosophy behind my approach though. I'm a big fan of David Choe, and his so called "dirty" style. The way he approaches a lot of his art is by going crazy, making a shitload of marks, then pulling out shapes and refining. So a lot of the time when doing these sketches from imagination its about making a mark and reacting to it. Not so much planning and thinking.

Theres value in "classical" approaches to art but
I think in general its important to establish a creative vision and figure out how you wanna execute it. Then you can run with that and improve in your own way.

My art is def not where i want it to be and i got a long way, so i'll def keep trying to improve it in the context of my own vision. I do appreciate the critique friend!

[Anonymous No.3372777]

>>3372471
>draw really fast
>>3370140
>draw really slow
getting mixed signals here

[Anonymous No.3372789]

>>3372777
imo drawing fast is nice to grasp general shapes and if you want to draw in just wrapping lines to focus more on the forms of the pose and drawing slow is better for when you want to study the pose and note down general landmarks.

for example these were my 2 min poses. i put down fewer strokes and noted where some landmarks are so that i could build on it after if i wanted to.

[Anonymous No.3372797]

>>3372777
Welcome to any discussion about gesture.

[Anonymous No.3372801]

>>3372765
>What do you mean by this tho?
I mean that you don't understand gesture yet. There are no poses in your sketches. Your characters are doing nothing and feeling nothing, they're just standing in space, randomly. As I look at them there's nothing that catches my eye, my vision is led nowhere. Gestures, even from imagination, should be clear, even if it's just a few strokes you're using, your viewer is supposed to understand the story you're presenting them on paper.

Being crazy and different isn't bad at all, but what I mean by it being unintentional is that you need to know the rules to break them. I don't mean you need to grind your ass off for years to be able to create something interesting, but if it's truly gesture you wish to achieve, try to fully understand what you're doing before you add your vision and style to it.

>>3372777
I'd recommend starting slow because you first need to figure out what exactly is that you're seeing and how to show it on paper. Then, after you realize what's the marks you should be looking at and making, start using a timer. Don't stress youreslf when you're just starting because you'll be rushing through the thinking a stage, and then you'll just be wasting your time repeating the same mistakes.

[Anonymous No.3372807]

>>3372777
>>3372777
>getting mixed signals here
Thats the whole point broseph. Try both, Do both. Its art, theres no right or wrong.
Which feels better to you? Figure it out.
Figure it out by drawing a fuckton, then you wont have to ask. Which ever you like, do it, run with it. Then do the opposite every now and then as a challenge.

>>3370140
>Draw really slow. Feel what you're doing as you go along, always asking "does this feel right?"
This was literally the shit they told me the year I was at art school. The professor would literally say, spend 30 minutes on one tiny section if you have to.

That shit made me wanna kill myself; I changed my major and didnt make art for like 5 years.
And im not saying its the wrong approach, im just saying that shit doesnt work for everyone.

Use books, watch videos on youtube, take advice from /ic/ strangers....Sure all that shit is nice and will help. But the most important thing is Draw, and DONT STOP

[Anonymous No.3372823]

>>3372801
>Your characters are doing nothing and feeling nothing
I def think thats the case in a lot of them but not in all of them. The thing about the fast approach is that i'll fill a few pages of stuff, then i'll look back. A lot of it is shitty, but theres a few ideas, a few poses, a few methods that i end up liking. Then i kinda study those, and try to run with them

>>3372801
> what I mean by it being unintentional is that you need to know the rules to break them.
That makes sense, and i agree but i think part of the thing that held me back before(and from what i can tell a lot of /ic/), is the whole notion that you have to grind to learn all the rules.

>I don't mean you need to grind your ass off for years to be able to create something interesting
This is basically my approach to art now. I feel like you can learn the rules as you go along.

Is this your work btw?
>>3372789
>>3372721

[Anonymous No.3372832]

>>3372823
I didn't make any posts besides shilling my discord.

[Anonymous No.3372969]

>>3372700
>>3372700
>>3372711
>>3372715
>>3372721
GAY

[Anonymous No.3373013]

>>3372789
>>3372832
I can tell you're a girl by the way you draw men's pelvic area. I see it commonly with beginner female artist's who draw blank dick areas too big.

[Anonymous No.3373036]

>>3373013
What did he mean by this

[Anonymous No.3374518]

>>3373036
What kind of fucking faggot wears a hat that leaves that much space?