/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>6284190
Define compete
Animation exists for different purposes, as you know. Your students all derive anime influences because they're massive weebs who - and forgive me if I sound a bit crazy - are disilussioned with western society and think that grass looks greener over in Asia.

I don't want to make this political, but I really do mean it when I say the young art crowd has no hope in their own country and is obsessed with saying a place they've never been to filled with people they've never met is better than the place they know every flaw of.

But given anime IS in nowadays, it'd probably be a good time to go back to the style that created it; classic Walt Disney era Disney animation.

>>6284190
French/Belgium comics.

>>6284190
Franco-Belgian comics and old Disney.

>>6284190
>Is their a comic or series that you think should be a blueprint for Western animation?
I doubt you're a teacher, but at any rate the answer is no because art shouldn't be driven by blueprints.

>>6284190
>Is their a comic or series that you think should be a blueprint for Western animation?
in a word no, the west walked so the east could run but that was decades ago. times have changed and the east is only held back by and lack of funding by consumers. if the people could just have an avenue to give more directly to Asian studios and comic creators. we would see high-quality production as we did in the past.

>>6284201
>Your students all derive anime influences because they're massive weebs who - and forgive me if I sound a bit crazy - are disilussioned with western society and think that grass looks greener over in Asia
Please stop pushing this /pol/-tier mentality that people like japamese thjngs just because they hate their own country or something. The reason a lot of people prefer anime or manga over their western equivalent is pretty simple: having comics with a beginning, a middle, and an end. Batman has been around for like 90 years. There's really nothing else you can do with that concept. Can you imagine Dragon Ball or Naruto going on for 90 fucking years? Also, I'd say that on average anime and manga are more experimental and varied than comics and western TV shows, not counting in indie titles or passion project. I'd love to see the same sense of worldbuilding and experimentation with big budget tv animation.

>>6284233
I agree with you. But two things can be true at once, and I honestly believe that both apply here. This isn't a discussion of content anyway, purely art style.

>>6284190
No.
Anime is just straight up better than anything the west has ever put out.

>>6284233
>The reason a lot of people prefer anime or manga over their western equivalent is pretty simple: having comics with a beginning, a middle, and an end. Batman has been around for like 90 years. There's really nothing else you can do with that concept. Can you imagine Dragon Ball or Naruto going on for 90 fucking years?
what are you smoking lmao
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_manga_series_by_volume_count

>>6284190
The West gives little to no shit about art in general, you can see how postmodernism took over while in the East, the Russian way of drawing and painting was preserved, even brought over into China. I watched a video recently where one of the only reasons why televised cartoons became widespread is because you could justify a 30 minute advertisement. It's probably the most strict consumer based society.

>>6284190
No.

Can the west collapse fully already so I can stop seeing cope like this?

You guys are shit
Here's some history for ya'll

Back in the '50s: cartoons and Disney were the absolute shit. Anime like Astroboy and Tensujin were clear-cut copies of Disney
The perception of cartoons was nothing more than children's entertainment
Modern anime was born after artists like Go-Nagai created DevilMan and other edgy series to challenge the norm. And guess what?
All of them were just a bunch of edgy Hannah Barbara fanfics

Anime's art style is a clear derivative of Disney cartoons, which were taken from children. Large eyes, small noses.

Today, cartoons are losing influence because they have forgotten what it means to make good stuff
Natural selection kicked in and anime took dominance. It is now the west who had to copy Japanese style.

That's it.
That's all the reason for all this nonsense
No style is superior to the other. It's just a matter of who holds greater influence over the market.

Though, to be fair, manga is really superior to comic books under 2 reasons
1. It welcome indie artists
2. The author own the IPs.
These ensure a greater diversity of its products and thereby catches the attention of more audience.

Comics are known to be just a bunch of superheroes and they experienced collapse during the 90s because they are so monotonous.

Best-selling manga in Shounen Jump includes Volleyball, Detective, Spy and Family, , Romcom, etc

>>6284367
Manga isn't popular, it's Anime that is popular, because it's for man children that are into cartoons, but because this cartoons are edgy and have sexualized characters it's okay for them to CONSOOM.
Maybe the fact that it is foreign also contributes to the appeal, it's "more culture" just for the sake of it not being American. Bunch of horny teens and weirdos buy Manga because Manga happens to be the source material for the anime they already CONSOOM. If westerners liked Manga that much OEL manga would sell well.

>>6284378
Missed KnY completely dominating western comics?

Style is a product of culture, and modern Western culture is conducive to the creation of a universal style suitable for comics and animation

>>6284378
Contrary to popular belief, anime has seen less and less sexualization nowadays
It was in the early 2000s where you can find rampant ecchi crap

Today, panty shots are now absurdly rare.

>>6284379
>KnY
The anime is popular, the manga sells like crazy.
How many copies do the manga without anime adaption sell?

>>6284393
>is
Isn’t*. Just think about it; you wouldn’t expect a tribe in Tanzania to spontaneously start composing Classical Baroque music. In the same way you wouldn’t expect nihilistic 21st century westoids, who almost universally have been cut off from high culture, to draw in a style such as that. There could be individual exceptions of course, but as a culture.. not a chance.

>>6284411
You got it the other way around
The manga gets popular first, the anime just boosts it.

Only in the west do you find highly successful movies but the audience refuses to buy the comic book lol

>>6284190
duh

>>6284400
bullshit

>>6284233
>Also, I'd say that on average anime and manga are more experimental and varied than comics and western TV shows

This is the biggiest reason IMO, I think both industries tries at obtaining more female readers shows it well (things like shojo and magical girls vs mostly just copying a existing superhero, giving him boobs and marrying the boobed superhero to the og)

Go after whoever's behind concept art for Disney and other companies.
I mean the CONCEPT ART, before they destroy all the soul by making it conform to Disney's boring designs.
Pic related is Mulan, for instance.

However, none of these people will be given enough creative authority to go very far on their own because that's not how entertainment works in the West.
So you will have to dig, find independent artists. Go on /co/ and get acquainted with the "classics" from the 90s, 00s and 10s in both animation and comics if you want something contemporary.

You can't possibly hope to sell "non-anime" to your students if you yourself are not acquainted with the media. Why would you want to do that in the first place, if you yourself are not interested in it?

I'm an animefag who consumes all sorts of media because I enjoy it. I sometimes watch indie stopmotion animations from the Soviets in the 70s. Last month I watched a cartoon series from the Arab Emirates produced in 2018.
Currently downloaded a few Western comics to read: I Hate Fairyland, Mélusine, Monster Allergy, Jolies Ténèbres.

Everyone loves Klaus, how about that?

If Anime influence is not a problem, we have the french with Wakfu and the Canadians with Scott Pilgrim.

Even within anime you can probably find things that would greatly please you.
From slightly stylized ones like Flip Flappers and Gachaman Crowds, to stuff that is more "out there", like Kaiba, Dead Leaves, Mononoke, Space Dandy...

If all of these don't please you and you still mourn the death of Moebius and Winsor McCay, and the fact that they've lost relevancy, then clearly YOU have a duty to be the next Moebius, to be the next McCay.
Or are you going to let all those kids flee to grorious Nippon without a fight?

>>6284190
Did the Simpsons and South Park finally stop being popular with the kids?

>>6284233
>Can you imagine Dragon Ball or Naruto going on for 90 fucking years?
Even Toriyama begged his editors to let him move on.

>>6284367
>2. The author own the IPs.
I vaguely remembered some potential law that could have made creators lose their IPs in 2012 which was suppose to explain why so many series ended.

>>6284526
Mob, Flip Flappers and Kyousogiga was absolutely stunning
Every frame was screaming SOUL

I hate Gachaman Crowds. It was so damn preachy even if the animation was also so good

>>6284526
>Or are you going to let all those kids flee to grorious Nippon without a fight?
Let them do that then realized how soulless comics and animation actually are over there and how much creative freedom they actually had in the west, not to mention that western comic artists earn a heck of a lot more than their Japanese counterparts... hell, Koreans too earn more than their Japanese counterparts.

>>6284217
Tintin and Asterix ...a man of culture.

>>6284771
>how much creative freedom they actually had in the west
lol
lmao even

>>6284771
>how much creative freedom they actually had in the west

>>6284190

The most important "Animation" that occurs in western cinema nowadays is not for cartoons but for special effects and digital graphics.

Since a lot of that type of animation is by necessity "realistic" since it has to match live-action footage, it cannot have a distinctive style the way anime does. So basically, at least in America, the "look" of art in pop-culture will continue to be that painterly concept art look that has dominated everything for the last 20 years.

>>6284190
>that you think should be a blueprint for Western animation?
Hell no. I like anime, but one of the things I dislike about it is just how samey the art direction is; the fact that we can look at a piece of art and clearly say that it's "anime" just shows how firmly set that style is, and how standard it's become. Even the few anime styles that are quite different are still clearly and obviously anime - I don't know how we can tell, but we just do.

At least in the west we have a lot more wiggle room and can drawn and stylise our art however we want - granted this gives room for there being a lot of shit too, but that's the failure of experimentation, not everything can be successful.

That's why in the animation scene the "bean mouth" and "calarts" art style was so controversial; it was seen as cookie cutter and overdone, not specifically bad. In a medium like animation where the main course of the meal is the visuals, you'd hope for a greater emphasis on it, and a want for a more unique look.

Anyway, I think part of the reason anime's look and art has become so popular is simply because most anime has the same look. Feed people enough shit, and they'll start to appreciate the taste - show someone enough anime art, and they'll come to like the dinner plate sized eyes and impossible coloured giant hair.

So what I'm trying to say is that 2 bombs weren't enough.

>>6284190
the west has literally millions of independent creators with hundreds upon hundreds of completely unique artstyles
the issue is things like extremely decentralized comicbook pipeline and lack of any real funding which makes only a fraction of the top 1% manage to break the mold + most people are lazy insecure retards scared of searching for anything new not spoonfed to them by the mainstream media

>>6284925
>>6284976
There's an artist team in Japan that couldn't get their Manga published, because it didn't look "Manga Enough" for the publishers over there in Japan; they were recommended to send their work to Disney/Marvel because their style look more "Disney-like" they have been working for American publishers ever since, and certainly, and even though American comics don't sell well, earning a hell of a lot more than their Japanese peers...

The Banner Saga and related artstyles.

>>6285671
https://www.artstation.com/mattrhodes

>>6285676
https://www.deviantart.com/banished-shadow

>>6284201
Retard americuck

>>6285671
>>6285676
>>6285683
Pure kino taste pal.

>>6285654
name

>>6285904
it's Giru-Hiru or something like that.

>>6285259
>the west has literally millions of independent creators with hundreds upon hundreds of completely unique artstyles
True, many of the are brilliant, but many are also pure crap, it's always a gamble with indies. Often the work is great, it's just the terrible art holding it back, but I can respect actually making something compared to just dreaming, prepping for, and saying you're going to make something and never actually doing it.

Speaking of which, if you've got a dream project and you haven't started it, and you're reading this comment, take this as a prompt to start it now, or it will never get started. Quit being a bitch and just DO IT!

>>6284190
>art teacher
>"g-guys ? c-could you help me find something better than anime ?"
>art "teacher"

>>6285654
The entire existence of Seinen manga prove this wrong
>>6286011
They have a pretty "manga" artstyle. Why wouldn't they get published in Japan if FKMT can?

>>6285144
>t. I don't actually watch anime

>>6285800
Thanks buddy.

>>6286539
>They have a pretty "manga" artstyle.

>>6284190
>"anime" = one style
maybe you should quit your dayjob.

>>6285654
im not sure looks would matter. content and style of humor absolutely.

>>6286546
Nah, I read and watch my fair share - you're just a jap cock sucking weeb.

>>6285144
This is absolute bs
Go compare the art style of Chainsawman vs SpyxFamily vs Sono Bisque doll

What differs anime from cartoon style is they have appropriate artstyle for appropriate genre

If the artstyle involves large rounded eyes, it is most likely a "low intensity" and even episodic show. It ranges from cute shows from manga Kirara to Romcoms to battle shounens.

If the artstyle is semi-realistic with eyes that are small and sharp, it is most likely action with mature themes in Seinen manga.

If it involves men with sharp eyes and overly detailed hair, it is most likely a shoujo

If it breaks the mold and have its own distinct artstyle, to the point that it take influence from cartoon, then it is guaranteed high art.
It can range from Houseki no Kuni, Setzubo Sensei, Kyousogiga, Shinsekai no Yori, Made In Abyss, and Girls Last Tour

But of course, you can break the mold too and have the artstyle in a different genre like Corpse Party, Madoka, Gokudolls, Yakuza Husband, etc

>>6287450
And yet, no matter the show or genre, we can immediately look at it and go "that's anime!" by just looking at the characters. This means there's something to be said about their similarity of styles between each show.

Also yes, there's always going to be outliers, especially when Japan makes so many animated shows, but to say they're more often unique than not is incorrect to the point of just outright denying the blatantly observable truth. Japan's art is (generally) very homogeneous and same-samey, and pointing to the 5 shows that go against the grain artistically isn't the killer point you think it is.

>Go compare the art style of Chainsawman vs SpyxFamily vs Sono Bisque doll
This point is what confused me the most. Do you seriously not see the similarities visually between these three shows and their character designs and style? Sure there are likely to be some differences, but there's more similar than there is different. Meanwhile if you compare two popular western animated shows, they're likely to have very different art styles (unless we're talking about the "beanhead shows, or something from the same studio like Hanna Barbara etc.).

>>6284190
I know people shit on capeshit all the time but the artstyle itself is great.

>>6284201
Can someone explain me the purpose of this webm? Is it to show that Disney had an actor to reference from when making the animation on the left?

>>6287997
Are you kidding?
It is easy to tell that they are from Japan because Japan holds a near complete monopoly of anime-styled art, you dingus

You go compare the art of Genshin Impact, Ragnarok, and Kancolle

Go tell me which was made by which country

>>6288106
Did I say we can tell which country made them? I said we point our finger and go "that's anime" not "that's from japan", ya dingus. Of course anime has been influential and some people are copying now, particularly when it's successful.

The argument is that Japan's content has a fairly similar style, and that they don't have much wiggle room stylistically for their work, not... What are you trying to argue? That other Asian countries can't draw anime? That we can't tell a country by animation style? What the fuck are you trying to discuss here?

>>6288132
It's called anime because it's from Japan and there is not yet any word for anime-styled shows made by Korean, Chinese, and Westerners, juuuuuust yet

But we already have words for non-Japanese manga
Manwha for Korean and Manhua for Chinese

And yes, they all have similar if not completely identical art styles. It's hard to tell which was made by which country until you read their methods of story telling

>>6288147
>And yes, they all have similar if not completely identical art styles.
And that was my argument. In Japan (possibly in Asia in general these days), it's expect that your work is in the standard "anime style".

Meanwhile in the west, each property can have a wildly different style, which is why I initially argued it's better to not have a "standard" art style.

This isn't to say all anime is the same artistically, but it is interesting that even anime with wildly different styles (say panty and stocking) still is overtly and obviously anime. The trappings of anime are obvious and easily observable, yet hard to define - though I think it's the eyes and a certain angular-ness that give it away.

>there is not yet any word for anime-styled shows made by Korean, Chinese, and Westerners, juuuuuust yet
It's probably just going to continue being called anime style, it really doesn't need another word to describe it in english.

>>6288174
Nope.
Western cartoons suffer the same pitfall
You cannot tell that Totally Spice, Martin Mystery, and Mr Bean were made by different countries

>>6288182
>were made by different countries
... What? I think you and I are discussing two very different things here? I'm talking about art styles, and your talking about... National styles? Whatever.

>>6288174
You know its an anime because its not a cartoon. Simple but think about it.

>>6288261
Oh totally - but I think that anime is a box, while a cartoon is just anything animated that isn't anime.

Personally, I'm the type of person to call anime "Japanese animation" or "Japanese Cartoons" rather than anime ordinarily, I'm just doing so here as I think it helps define the art style everyone knows.

All that said, I think your main point that we could easily point out an "non-anime" is also valid, but I think that has nothing to do with an expected art style and more so because animation in the west is expected to be kiddy fodder, so the art style is consistently geared towards them -- there are plenty of art styles in kid's books for example, but they still have a certain commonality between them because of the demographic - western animation is similar.
Where as Japanese animation can be for anyone - kids to adults - but all of it is in the expected "anime" style.

>>6284217
Bonne réponse!

>>6288147
>But we already have words for non-Japanese manga
>Manwha for Korean and Manhua for Chinese
>>6288174
>It's probably just going to continue being called anime style
Book stores used to place Korean titles in the same section as Japanese manga, I suppose they still do. And for market reasons, let's say calculating total sales of the "Manga industry" in America they group Korean Manhwa and print copies of Webtoons under the label Manga. We internet people may use this terms but I think that for the public at large Manga is a generic term for Asian comic books.

>>6284190
>all the studwnts in my school that enjoy drawing all draw with obvious anime infleunces.

>blueprint for Western animation

It's funny that you say that, when even modern western animation take inspiration from anime, I'm not talking about Avatar, or Teen Titans either, I'm talking about 2020s cartoons, just look at the picrel, and focus on the eyes.

>>6288703
>I'm talking about 2020s cartoons

Just look at the newest superman cartoon, that shit is clearly inspired by anime, even tho it's still cartoony.

>>6288707
>2020s cartoons

It's over for modern cartoons, zoomers only care about their animu waifus, and degenerate shit like that.

>>6288707
I dread to even click on the image to get a better view, rather save myself a new wrinkle from the cringe.

>>6288709
>It's over for modern cartoons

It's over for modern comics too, just look at the new Batman webtoon, webcomic and how popular it's, it's a hit when compared to print comics.

>>6288714
>Another token nigger
>Wayne family
So is the groid adopted or a boyfriend or a bull or what?

>>6288716
>groid adopted

Yes

>>6285671
>>6285676
>>6285683
w*stoids can't into appeal

>>6288024
My biggest gripe is often the layouts and paneling, I really wish more capeshit would adapt a more fluid and flexible paneling layout, the paneling setup often end up looking stale and boring, like I'm reading a storyboard, this is something manga is often superior in, take any shounen, like dragon ball, your eye movement naturally follow the panels over the page, following the action, almost looking animated.
While American superhero comic, have this really stiff setup of the page, sure I've seen some amazing art, but reading it can sometimes be a chore.
My second complaint is colouring, it hurts when you see these really amazing monochrome drawing, pure work of craftsmanship then some fucker come in, use bucket tool, put a ugly gradient on top just to really make it look extra shit just STOP.
My third and last complaint, the text, holy shit, too much fucking text, I came to read a comic not a novel.

>>6288697
>Manga is a generic term for Asian comic books.
For now the normal people don't see the difference because its still overwhelmingly Jap.

But if it chink and gook shit got popular enough, people would make the distinction primarily because of how god awful the stories are when it's so outlandishly factory made.

Art is a reflection of culture. Korean and Chinese culture revolve around the most vehemently toxic community obsessed with nothing but image.

Japan had those as well but it's not as bad. In fact, their collectivist culture hates standing out

>>6289107
>Art is a reflection of culture. Korean and Chinese culture revolve around the most vehemently toxic community obsessed with nothing but image.
You only think that because of K-pop, and even then fucking K-pop has more Soul than the inhumane garbage that is J-pop, outside of that Korea is the most Western-like of Asian countries. Japan is the one that is more drone-like and collectivistic.

>>6289134
Japan's collectivism is the result of lacking arable land and a target of natural disasters. Collectivism is needed to survive

Korean's high amount of suicide was the result of the government funding merely 5 companies back when they were poor, causing massive growth until they because too large and swallowed the government

Oh, yes, Korea is really as western like as they too were eaten by the companies who know nothing but mass production with manpower as disposable fuel

moebius

>>6289139
>Korean's high amount of suicide was the result of the government funding merely 5 companies back when they were poor, causing massive growth until they because too large and swallowed the government
I was talking about how a large portion of the population is Christian, plus they read left-to-right like in English and that their alphabet is made up of consonants and vowels more akin to Roman alphabet than Chinese ideograms... Guess we are more alike (and fucked up in similar ways) than previously though.

>>6284190

>>6286685
Watching Toonami doesn't really make you an expert in anime.

>>6289324
Jerking it constantly to Hentai doesn't make you an expert either Anon.

>>6289374
I disagree.

>>6284190
french comics shit all over your weeb shit comics

>>6284190
>I am an art teacher and all the studwnts in my school that enjoy drawing all draw with obvious anime infleunces. Is their a comic or series that you think should be a blueprint for Western animation?
you're an art teacher and think anime is a style? what year is this

These "people" >>6284190 will never get over the fact that they only exist because Westerners in the past were merciful enough not to exterminate every single one of them.

>>6284190
my brother in Christ, anime is not that good you just have found memories with it.

>>6284201
haha i doubt brainlet tranime loving weebs are thinking that deeply about it. they just like it because it's a cutesy comfy art style and they are lonely. simple as

>>6284190
>Is their a comic or series that you think should be a blueprint for Western animation?
Pixar style

>>6288024
god damn, that's fucking dope. is that Jim Lee? this shits on all the generic tranime for sure

>>6288147
chinese is just donghua. Donghua literally translates to moving drawing, but donghua is also used for all animation including Japanese anime as well by Chinese people while in English language donghua would be used only for chinese-only shows. Like how Chinese people refer all comics as manhua but of course to non-Chinese manhua refers specifically to Chinese comics.