/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>4104304
Sounds kinda cringe desu

>>4104304
literally the same as doing a sketch to make a sculpture, go ahead op

>>4104304
just learn to draw already

>>4104313
Why learn to draw if I can 3D model and trace it with perfect accuracy, and do it faster than an artist can?

>>4104304
does people make full models just for posing?
why not just playing with some sliders in designdoll, daz, or whatever?

>>4104304
What 3d tools do you use?

Do it, or else someone else will.

>>4104316
I'm a Blendlet, I use Blender. I've spent something like 4 hours a day for the past year messing with Blender, so I'm roughly intermediate and know the basics well enough to teach a beginner. I've made a few 3D models.

>>4104307
What's cringe about it?

>>4104315
I think the idea is that creating a model from scratch isn't necessarily cheating because it's still your own content you are tracing, and 3D modeling is a separate skill which is still valid in regards to anatomy and sculpting. It just feels less morally shady, to me, if I made the reference by myself from scratch.

>>4104320
i'm doing already. and i'll tell everyone op is copying me

>>4104323
I'll believe it when I see it, faggot.

>using a model for such a simple pose

NGMI as it's best

>>4104323
post your channel

>>4104314

It's sad you think this. It takes less than a minute to gesture in something and a few minutes for a basic draft. Where as you're taking 5 minutes out of your time to do a simple standing pose and then an hour to draft what you're trying to do.

>>4104335
You say that, but I made more gainz with 3D modeling in a very short time. I studied gesture for years and never got anywhere with it. I grinded boxes and so on, nothing really helped.

I'm probably just a brainlet, but it's more likely that I have gifts with 3D modeling and don't posses much skill for thinking in a 2D fashion. My thought process doesn't translate to paper well.

>>4104337

You just need to be trained by the right teacher on how to construct things. Disregard all the memes. It's good that you found your true calling if it's 3D but to dismiss 2D by thinking it's faster to get poses down by using 3D models just because you can't do it is being very room temperature IQ or misinformed.

>>4104343
Also I'm interested in your channel if you don't mind. Don't stop what you planned from what I said.

>>4104343
>but to dismiss 2D by thinking it's faster to get poses down by using 3D models just because you can't do it is being very room temperature IQ

I really can't do it, I'm not going to spend another decade of my life trying when the past 7-10 years have gotten me exactly no where. I'm sure other anons have this issue as well, even if it's not many of them.

>>4104346
>>4104333


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2YR-IxxHnT8i2FHsceeB_A

https://twitter.com/aceplusdiamonds

I'll post them on here. It might take me a week or two to get the first video out, but I'm going to go for it. Thanks for the opinions, guys, I thought most of you would hate it.

>>4104321
>morally shady
artists has been using live models, mannequins, casts, and all kinds of reference since always
it's cool learning to sculpt: i do it too, but all that work just for tracing a pose is a very inefficient workflow

>>4104355
Eh, it's probably inefficient workflow and that's fair.
I only think it needs to be done this way because I can't learn how to draw without tracing and I've spent too much time trying. Some kind of workflow is better than no workflow at all :| It's still my dream to learn art in some way, even if I have to resort to this

>I want to offer free advice for people to use it if they like it
Sounds like the perfect deal, please go ahead and ignore /ic/.

>>4104304
Thanks for using my pic as the op image haha :P. Sounds fun.

>>4104335
If you are good at using 3d software, It can take even less time than that. As someone who comes from a background in 3d artwork and has traced 3d models before.

>>4104369
ayyyyyyyyyyy lol no problem
It's a basted picture desu. How long did that 3D model take you to make?

>>4104393
I didn't make the model myself personally, I used a bunch of morphs in daz studio to create the body type I wanted. However, Sometimes I will create different parts for the model to help me if needed

>>4104304
people do this?
how common is this?

>>4104335
>It takes less than a minute to gesture in something
if you can nail perfect foreshortening on the first try I tip my hat off to you

>>4104404
It's very common. especially in the video game industry. Manga artists use this method for backgrounds too. not op, but now days I only use it when I'm doing complex backgrounds

>>4104404
Every single western meme artist do it

>>4104304
I'm not sure. I think It should be a video course on skillshare/gumroad and not YouTube. Im not sure how you could stretch 'how to trace' into a full youtube career.
Also you have to remeber a big chunk of the art community is a young kids. The type of kids who might misintpertet what your saying or who might witch hunt you with 'TRACING IS BAD". Like I can see someone using your videos as an excuse to trace IRL models and you get dragged into this giant youtube dramafest. Doing gumroad prevents that young audince. You should label it under photobashing and technical terms so you dont start some drama.

>>4104404
It's really common from what I can tell. I know a lot of artists who do it, some on a small scale (using a 3D model to trace a limb they can't get the angle right or something) and on big scale (composing entire pictures by making/buying/using 3D models then tracing over them).

It's mostly western artists but I know of a few Japanese and Korean artists who also do it to save time.

>>4104424
Interesting. which japanese/korean artists do you know?

>>4104404
>he doesn't do it

>>4104304
Anything to not put any effort into things, huh? No wonder anything you faggots make ends up looking like trash soulless products.

>>4104437
pyw

>>4104422
I'm actually perfectly fine with getting dragged into a youtube dramafest. I also don't want to start a youtube career, I just wanna make a few 3D modeling videos and answer/help newbies in the Blender community who want to trace and draw.

Good points though. I'll plan what I say carefully in these videos so that younger audiences don't get the wrong idea.

>>4104424
>>4104413
>>4104415
I've seen mangaka do it, but they didn't really trace, they seem to use the default models as groundwork and always change things freely afterwards. I use some basic sketchup for backgrounds but I have never seen anyone trace something specifically made to be this close to the final picture.

>>4104440
Truth hurts, doesn't it, shitter?

>>4104443
I'm still waiting. pyw :)

>>4104445
Not gonna get it

>>4104437
shut up crab

>>4104442
>They don't trace
hahahaha

>>4104448
Roach

>>4104451
-t seething

>>4104455
Cope more

>>4104450
Where is this from, anon? Do you have more information on this picture?

>>4104447
Exactly. you can't back your statement up. Have a nice day

>>4104450
based. anime traces over 3d all the time. K-on specifically rotoscoped their opening theme with 3d models.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plAY6-JX7hc

>>4104404
Evan Lee just uploaded a speedpaint video showing how he used 3d modeling software as a tool to help him crate his "Cyber s̶e̶x̶ Doll" with the see through exo skeleton. He has absolutely solid fundamentals though. He hand modeled a lot of the cybernetic 3d parts.

https://youtu.be/5l_nzC5Vu_Q

(The original image on his website was like 21mb and over 10000x10000 resolution. It's amazing he has no problem uploading full resolution pics)

>>4104466
man thats good

>>4104464
Kek pyw if you're that much better. Only in this shithole is saying tracing is bad something controversial, what a dump.

>>4104466
I'll order 5!

>>4104466
>face is just a paint over
lol

>>4104466
If you can barely paint or draw, tracing models is not going to take you anywhere. Your art will still look like someone who doesn't know how to draw just traced over something.

>>4104471
op image

>>4104481
Yeah I agree. Definitely should learn fundies along side using 3d if you really want to get anywhere, otherwise it's just a useless crutch

>>4104450
I don't watch anime, I've only seen mangaka at work

>>4104481
But it feels terrible to trace. It's just plain not fun or challenging. Has this become a necessity? I can't even imagine being only concerned with the final result.

>>4104496
I think people enjoy the process of making art differently. Me for example, I personally really enjoy using 3d models. Not everyone has to use them though. It is only a tool for those who want to incorporate it into their workflow.

>>4104496
>I can't even imagine being only concerned with the final result.

Try having deadlines and a family to feed.

>>4104512
>Try having deadlines and a family to feed.
No worries about that, I'm never gonna make it

>>4104335
I can easily disprove your point by the fact that tracing/photobash/3d are all pretty commonly used in the industry for the sake of saving time, that and it takes years to draw the figure well in just a few minutes.

Do it, doesn't matter what we do, expect a shit storm tho

>>4104839

Ahh shutup. Go draw more. Look at more streams and you can clearly see a bunch of ero-artists draw without the use of models.

I would only ever use 3d for complex backgrounds or things like ships, fuck ton of cars or people for like comics or something if I'm doing it on my own which more than likely I would be. Otherwise the grind of trying to get better is my hobby and tracing takes away the fun in that and also what little satisfaction I could be getting from it when I do it right.

>>4104855
I can point to a stream right now of a dude that wastes hours getting the figure correct and still fucking it up when he should have just traced. This guy has been drawing 10+ years and grinded fundies, and I can think of more artists, I could honestly endlessly find examples of artists that should have just traced and instead wasted hours trying to do a figure from imagination and having it still look bad.

Lastly in my own experience I've studied the figure for 2 years, and I still spend a long time & a lot of energy getting it correct from imagination/with ref, I started tracing recently and it was like a breathe of fresh air, all the anatomy/proportions were figured out for me instantly, & I can just focus my energy on the design. It's just way faster and smarter way to work.

>>4104878
>I can point to a stream right now of a dude that wastes hours getting the figure correct and still fucking it up

post it
>Lastly in my own experience I've studied the figure for 2 years, and I still spend a long time & a lot of energy getting it correct from imagination/with ref, I started tracing recently and it was like a breathe of fresh air, all the anatomy/proportions were figured out for me instantly, & I can just focus my energy on the design. It's just way faster and smarter way to work.

You sound confident in your hacking so I'm anticipating your video.

>>4104878
based

>>4104885
he's based until he posts his video

>>4104889
But he's right.Honestly you'd probably be spending the same amount of time, if not less, tracing 3d models. But anyway, by saying 3d models waste time, are you also saying 3d models waste time when you need a reference? You spend the same amount of time posing the model, except you are drawing it yourself

>>4104884
This guy spent 12+hours on this and it still has bad wonky, blobby anatomy, and he spends hours on just the figure alone for every piece he does and they are all bad. If he traced he could get all the anatomy/proportions within 5minutes and focus on the design instead of spending hours of mental energy just for a wonky figure, it's just not smart. I already gave you proof btw, proof was the fact that professionals trace over 3d all the time for efficiency https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYbYvImd7Bw, & you could just look up twitch streamers and see how long it takes them to finish a figure from imagination and weather the figures are even good/worth the time.

>>4104918

Which based are we talking about here; the literal form of "based" readit speak, or "I was only being unironic" based? In either case the issues I have with 3D models is the following:

1. 3D pose models does not create the ideas for you

Yeah, you can pose virtually almost any standard pin-up pose. But what's the point when it's not creating the ideas for you? You'd still have to thumbnail your idea and plan what you want to finalize. For if you don't it's just going to be another trite image on the internet we've seen a billion times.

2. Pic related. 3D models lose a huge amount of expression loose drawing can convey. Good luck finding a model to massage sketches that look natural like an animators here.
>but aaaaanon, animators trace over 3D models all the tiiiiiiiiiime
Are you not looking at the image. Or for better reference there are a ton of animator sketches in pencil on pinterest right now. I have a board dedicated to it. If I find the time to not be lazy I'll link my reference board.

3. 3D models are unpredictable. And because of this, you can bend and twist a figure so unnaturally so that it breaks the pose. That's because most models have to limiters. I know of some that have been user created that have limits in the joints but even those are unpredictable.

4. 3D models do not help you with your anatomy. They simply do not. You still need the anatomical knowledge not just because you need to show the surface muscles buuuuuuut--and this leads into 5

5. You need to still know anatomy to do drapery well. And at this point if you're lacking in both departments your 3D tracing is going to look like amateur shit.

I have 5 more reasons but I got some anime to watch and my time is valuable. I'm still waiting for those stream videos.

>>4104928
Nigga no look at any Jap/korean twitch streamer and they clearly are constructing. I don't watch western pigs on twitch unless they have an appealing style or if it's arutaman or how you spell his name.

>>4104304
Tracing 3d makes a lot of sense for complex, human made environments and machinery. i suppose basic mannequins can be useful to setup a scene with complex perspective too
3d models for detailed human figure seem overkill to me and probably not worth the effort
That said, i use Designdoll all the time to get hand poses right, faster, and easier

>>4104304
>What does /ic/ think of this?
Yes, if you can teach it well, make appealing models like OP pic or better, and if you can make an appealing finished pic like OP pic or better.

>>4104945
Here's some of my 3D models. Dump incoming.

I'll be making better than this, and need to get better rigs before I start this series, but I'm only a few months away from that point if I study a bit harder.

>>4104945

>>4104948
>>4104947

Please finish your videos asap. /ic/ is in need of some fresh meme material for 2020. Crab and NGMI are so stale it hurts.

>>4104933
You don't sound well versed about 3d models in general....

but also, it seems that you think we are trying to use 3d as a crutch. At least, I don't. Idk about op. Sometimes I find that 3d DOES spark my creativity. 3d is a tool and should be treated as such. You should still study to use the tool properly.

> Pic related. 3D models lose a huge amount of expression loose drawing can convey. Good luck finding a model to massage sketches that look natural like an animators here.

3d artists do this all the time

>>4104936
I think the bigger issue here is you're an idiot incapable of using logic & learning.

>>4104945
Annnd here's the most recent example, which I feel is improved and much better than the previous versions.
After I get slightly better than this, and /3/ + my Blender cimmunities approves of the models unanimously, then I will make the videos. I'm pretty close.

>>4104951
Meme material, eh?

>>4104960
>but also, it seems that you think we are trying to use 3d as a crutch

you are
>Sometimes I find that 3d DOES spark my creativity
Sometimes is not a good sign. What about the times that aren't sometimes? Are you acknowledging here that you still need to do plan work for using clay digital dolls?
>3d is a tool and should be treated as such.

But OP is using it as a crutch. He clearly stated that he has given up on drawing. Or at the very least, given up on the most rudimentary part of drawing.

>>4104965
Attack my points and not your preconceived sense of my intelligence with your lack of backing up what you stand for.

>>4104968
OP here. To be fair, at least 3D modeling is helping me think in shapes, understand lighting, and be more creative. I can picture things better in my mind's eye after working with 3D software, but I've definitely given up on drawing from scratch yeah.

I did spend a lot of time grinding anatomy and boxes. I do have fundamentals, I'm just not...good. It takes me five or six hours to set up a gesture, and that's really time inefficient and tedious.

>>4104972
Do you mind posting your so called bad drawing attempts? It can't be that bad.

>>4104968
I'm not. I don't use 3d often.

>Sometimes is not a good sign. What about the times that aren't sometimes?

What? How do you find creativity then? You don't doodle around and come up with some ideas? You don't look at art and come up with Ideas? How is playing around with digital dolls different?

Also that is a fair point. I did not catch that.

>>4104975
sure anon
This is an example. 6 hours, and it's very stiff, soulless, and looks empty.

>>4104975
and here was the reference

>>4104977
You're not bad. keep studying

>>4104980
Anon, it's extremely bad for 6 hours when I could have gotten a superior outcome from tracing in 2 hours or less.

I appreciate it though. I just know it would take me 10 or more years to get that fast on my own, and I don't have that kind of patience.

>>4104977
Is this supposed to be stylized or...?
>>4104979
Oh. I've seen worse on /beg/. You're beating yourself up for nothing. Post more work and then I'll be able to gauge what you're doing wrong.

>>4104983
the sad thing is, it was supposed to be realistic lol. I don't really want to share more, it's too embarrassing.

>>4104983
Also what are you even doing spending 6 hours rendering an African Goddess? Where are your rendered cubes? You're suffering from the basic forms are you not?

>>4104985
>the sad thing is, it was supposed to be realistic lol.

Well you're definitely wasting/wasted your time in the wrong areas.

>>4104986
Yeah, like I said. I'm never gonna make it and should just trace because this was supposed to be a sketch. Real pieces take me a week or two to finish. That's honestly just....an unacceptable amount of time.

This is also from grinding years of cubes, anatomy, and so on. This is about as good as it gets for me, and I'm alright with my future in tracing if that yields better outcomes.

>>4104988
>Real pieces take me a week or two to finish.
https://www.twitch.tv/atamanman

This guy spends a week, sometimes even 2 weeks on the same image. He might even spend longer but I would check in and he's on the same illustration that I saw him painting a week ago. There are other people who spend way longer on the same 1 image if you look at other artists. So...
>That's honestly just....an unacceptable amount of time.

Yeah it is. But for your level you shouldn't even be worrying yourself about spending that much time on something.
>This is also from grinding years of cubes, anatomy, and so on.

I can't say anything about that since I don't know what that looks like.

>>4104992
But this is the internet, anon. People expect artists to push out constant, high quality content 2-3x a week, in addition to finishing commissions. It seems like an impossible bar to reach unless we trace, unless we wanna be poor and make next to nothing.

The more enjoyable part of art, for me, is picking the colors and creating a good composition which I am sure will end up being well received and easy on the eyes. I like to plan my drawings out in advance and focus on the enjoyable stuff, rather than grinding the same figures and feeling bored.

>>4104993
>People expect artists to push out constant, high quality content 2-3x a week

Among the 95,000 twatter followers you only really need 1000 true fans to give a shit about you. All those people are not eagerly waiting for your next drawing. Everybody is too busy getting blasted by everyone else on their feed.
>in addition to finishing commissions.
The only thing that matter.
>It seems like an impossible bar to reach unless we trace
You're getting paid to do what the client wants. In the end the end result is what matters. You can do what you want so yes you're right about this. But you're more than likely not strapped for time with 100 people waiting in line to get paid stuff from you.
>The more enjoyable part of art, for me, is picking the colors and creating a good composition which I am sure will end up being well received and easy on the eyes.
It's good to find what you find enjoyable. I can't argue with that.

>>4105000
>All those people are not eagerly waiting for your next drawing.

UNLESS you're some youtube personality like ross draws. Then that's a completely different thing....

>>4104970
>>4104928
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYbYvImd7Bw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CAlo0IU-UI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sTJu_fSpVs
this guy (a top industry professional and FZD concept art school founder) has tons of videos on his channel about working efficiently using photos/3d, so provide him points as to why tracing is bad.

>>4104933
#1. construction and photos are both tools to get your idea on paper.

#2. If you can't exaggerate a traced photo you can't exaggerate from imagination.

#3. if you can draw already you know what looks broken. It's not just about tracing 3d models, you can use images on the internet.

#4 & #5. tracing isn't going to work if your beginner, it's a time saving tool for people know hot to use it.

>>4105035
>this guy (a top industry professional and FZD concept art school founder) has tons of videos on his channel about working efficiently using photos/3d, so provide him points as to why tracing is bad.

Sweetie, Feng doesn't have what OP is mainly targeting. Also did you even watch/skim your own videos? Has no relation to what OP intends on making videos for.
>#4 & #5. tracing isn't going to work if your beginner, it's a time saving tool for people know hot to use it.
You mean people like the guy in my image? Guarantee you couldn't make a similar appealing illustration that conveys a narrative just like this artist to save your life. Why? Because posing a clay doll isn't even 25% of the battle on making good work.

>>4105061
>changing your arguing point and agreeing with me
you lost.

>>4105081
not him but
>caring about "winning" a debate online rather than coming to a solution or understanding
>valuing your teenage small dick energy testosterone fits over being a normal person who tries to solve problems with other normal people

god i hate this place

>>4105061
You...just agreed with the guy you replied to...just angrily?

>>4105089
I provided solution/understand, so hate yourself. My argument was tracing was more efficient, and I was right, that's what professionals use it.

>>4105099
>you lost

no, i hate you.

>>4105035
>there was a new FZD video and /ic/ didn't have a thread
What the fuck

>>4105102
you realize he started that? he changed his point to win a debate, 50 iq.

>>4105110
i could care less about the particulars i just hate the "I WIN YOU LOSE" retard brainlet attitude here

>>4105081

You're a third party in my conversation. You come mid-way and bring in completely different arguing points from OP to make me look like some kind of idiot. I've never disagreed with some of things you brought up from the start.

>>4104314
Because substitutions are not the same thing as shortcuts. You're putting more effort towards doing something that would take more time than if you just improved your fundamentals.
Do you know what a curve is? You're going to hit that wall in time and because you faked your way to it you'll have to start over from the beginning to ever climb it, on top of unlearning all the bad habits you've made getting there the first time.

>>4105061
who is the artist on your picture?

>>4104304
>What does /ic/ think of this?

enjoy your 16 followers

>>4104314
3d is not art. Especially not posing dolls and tracing over them lmao

>>4104404
you notice it easily. All of them are begs

>>4104464
>K-on

you have no idea how animation actually works

>>4104466
Yeah the only difference is that evan lee can spit out a finished decent painting in 30 min without reference and just 2 brushes lol

>>4105061
>Guarantee you couldn't make a similar appealing illustration that conveys a narrative just like this artist to save your life.
>literally a bunch of moeblobs in a school doing whatever
Not the anon you're replying to but lol, the only interesting aspect of this trite garbage is the perspective choice and the perspective is traced

>>4104966
Kill it with fire. That's some nightmare fuel.

>>4104977
Draw bigger man. That's way too small. A pose like this needs an A5. And if your eraser is more or less standard in size it's like 1/4 of that. Of course you will spend shitton of time trying to dot it right at such a scale.

>>4105492
No shit, it's a demo for CSPs 3D tools. Aren't you the genius here.

>>4105618
You're backpedaling, you said the illustration is appealing and conveys a narrative as if those were the main qualities of it.
Let's be real, people just want to see skill, nobody gives a shit about narrative or the other mystical elements that are completely ignored in 99% of the popular art.
Tracing saves a lot of time and also enables you to do stuff you wouldn't be able to otherwise. Yeah you need very basic skills but you guys are delusional if you think you need to be anything but not a total /beg/ to trace in a way that doesn't look like shit, or that every person who traces is a 200IQ grandmaster who can draw the same stuff on the same level of flawless accuracy without tracing.

>>4105630
>traces is a 200IQ grandmaster who can draw the same stuff on the same level of flawless accuracy without tracing.
>ignores yoshikadzu link in the alt thread that has been linked for years
>ignores all the streamers online right now drawing flawlessly without 3D models
uhmm
>Let's be real, people just want to see skill
>countless artists who aren't that skilled but have an appealing style and great personality still make it
But the 3D model is the antidote, guys!

Lemme do a quick drive by....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT65JxbKojs
no 3d model, tons of fans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prIktwOHmoI
no 3d model, tons of fans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9epIQvuozDY
no 3d model, tons of soul
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWAzQmSjdL4
no 3D model, quality work

live channels

https://www.twitch.tv/asicah
no 3d models
https://www.twitch.tv/ishii06takuma
no 3d models

etc etc etc

>>4104944
Dude, you have hands.
Make photos, use a mirror.
That hand pose isn't natural.

>>4105697
>>4105647
What does that have to do with what I said? I'm not saying that people cannot make good art without tracing 3D, I'm saying that tracing 3D is a crutch for the majority of people who use it, but there's this idea that you have to be super amazing to trace your way above your skill level.
The only case where it's legitimate is when it's used to save time by people like Yoshikazu who can draw amazingly without 3D. Nothing in my post addresses these artists.
I can't stand it when people turn off their reading comprehension just to type a smug contradictory reply.

>>4105647
>traces is a 200IQ grandmaster who can draw the same stuff on the same level of flawless accuracy without tracing.
why didn't you quote the full sentence?
>you guys are delusional if you think [...] that every person who traces is a 200IQ grandmaster who can draw the same stuff on the same level of flawless accuracy without tracing

imagine being limited to tracing from 3d models to make anything decent just because you don't want to practice figure drawing like everyone who was ever good

>>4105697
>let me not read the thread at all and waste my time posting these links

>>4105035
i disagree with 4/5 it is useful, do get a better idea of how the shapes work and connect, but also if you depend on it you fail, even if better artists just switch and only trace, it could make them back track

>>4105787

>let me respond to you 3 times because I'm angry at you

>>4104304

soul/soulless

>>4105741
A large amount of users on /ic/ don't benefit from tracing from models because they aren't on the production level. What part of this do you not understand? NO BODY is lined up ready to pay you thousands for Miku getting fucked by 3 black men while riding in a Ferris wheel. So just take your time and learnt to draw the figure and stop looking for shortcuts because you have some kind of pretend demand going on in your brain.

>>4105796
>So just take your time and learnt to draw the figure and stop looking for shortcuts
How many gallons of lead paint did you eat as a kid to become this fucking stupid? How did you even get this idea from my post?
>>4105790
It's actually 3 different posters calling you a retard.

>>4105806
What are you even arguing about?

>>4105806
i mean, it is kinda lazy and you wont really improve, if you wanna make a youtube of this, say its a reff that can be traced to have a better idea of stuff and not jus "only trace this"

>>4105796
i did improve by tracing myself, but i dont depend on it

>>4105697
I didn't post ITT at all, just find the subject matter interesting and some of the posts have good points on either side of the argument.

Then I run into your stupid-ass post and can't help but point out how stupid and useless it is.

Read the posts before wasting your time collecting links and make yourself look like a moron.

>>4105796
Holy fucking shit, nevermind. Even when you read something you miss the point. Just go stick to your anime drawings or whatever.

>>4105823
You didn't have a "point" to begin with, moron.

>>4105807
If only people read the posts before replying
>Anon posts generic moeblob and implies that the illustration has appeal and a narrative unreachable by common mortals and the 3D is somewhat secondary
>I say the image is generic moeblob and the only interesting thing is the part that was traced (the perspective)
>Anon backpedals and says "no shit, it was a demo of the 3D assets"
>I point out anon is backpedaling and say that people love flashy stuff even if it's empty.
>I point out that there's a sentiment building up in the art community where you have to be very good at art to trace effectively, which is not true, as you only need to mediocre to trace seamlessly.
>I concluded that believing every single person who traces is ultra-competent and does it for the heck of it or to save time is ridiculous, and for my majority of people it's a crutch to compensate for lack of knowledge.
>This implies that everyone trying to justify this shit is not going to improve
>Anon posts exactly the kind of ultra-competent artist I pointed out to be the exception, as if this debunked my argument
>I call him a retard for not reading my post
>Anon tells me to learn figure drawing instead of looking for crutches as if my entire argument were not against using crutches
>I call him a retard again
We're getting to the point where people have to use /s to point out sarcasm, I feel like I'm talking to 12 year olds.

>>4105831
>Anon posts generic moeblob and implies that the illustration has appeal and a narrative unreachable by common mortals and the 3D is somewhat secondary
https://howto.clip-studio.com/library/page/view/illuststudio_making_c_028_001
Do you do this much level of thinking when making a piece or is it standing up anime girl #3596873947 like the OP image?
>I say the image is generic moeblob and the only interesting thing is the part that was traced (the perspective)
small brain IQ
>Anon backpedals and says "no shit, it was a demo of the 3D assets"
No shit. I posted the link. I thought you'd be aware of such an infamous image. Guess not.
>I point out anon is backpedaling and say that people love flashy stuff even if it's empty.
source: your asscrack
>I point out that there's a sentiment building up in the art community where you have to be very good at art to trace effectively, which is not true, as you only need to mediocre to trace seamlessly.
And that's where you're wrong. I already pointed out 5 reasons.
>I concluded that believing every single person who traces is ultra-competent and does it for the heck of it or to save time is ridiculous, and for my majority of people it's a crutch to compensate for lack of knowledge.
Saving time for what? You're not working in a damn studio. Nobody here but the 1% is. Your saving time should be put towards learning so that you can save time when you're on the production floor like everyone else using tools to save time.
>This implies that everyone trying to justify this shit is not going to improve
They aren't.
>Anon posts exactly the kind of ultra-competent artist I pointed out to be the exception, as if this debunked my argument
Your whole argument is "I have thousands of fans waiting for my porno cumbrain pinup on twitter and they demand Mc Donalds speed art. So tracing models saves me time and makes me more $$$. When in reality you don't have anything built up.
>I call him a retard for not reading my post
1/2

>>4105831
I am clearly reading everything and I'm not repeating myself 5 times.
>We're getting to the point where people have to use /s to point out sarcasm, I feel like I'm talking to 12 year olds.
12 year olds today are more smarter than 12 year olds years ago

>4105840
>4105844
Just pointing out I won't give you further attention as you keep grasping at straws.
Any replies that follow are not mine.

>>4105848
At least quote me so I get a few cents deposited into my skylight bank account.

I can't wait to enjoy several videos of a dunning kruger talking down to the artist community and fully exposing himself as a cheater.
And not only that, but have him fully alienate potential cheaters by showing if you're not good at drawing/3d modelling in the first place, the trace will look shit.

If you really want to know how to cheat for some reason, Boro Dante did a series on that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnNFuCNyDwM

Lmfao why is everyone so upset that someone wants to trace 3d?

>>4105986
probably normies, a truly artist know that none of those shits matter. They try to glorify something more than it deserves, which is ironic because precisely these things show you that art is not a matter of talent but a matter of mere critical and conscious study, and anyone can do it if they go serious. Is at the level of learning anything else academic, and that hurts many normies because they associate it with more mundane things on the humanistic and spiritual side, with emotions and all that.
So you hace than in old centuries the masters use the camera obscura to project things to the paper, they literally trace the projection.. they used real life people for "model" they final paintings, to that level that they even dress in the way, so the artist just see and copy, the ones to go for imagination draw do several sketches before as you can see you many important painters in history, when they don't know how to do it they simply contract a guy to pose and that´s it.... a lot of mankagas use actual photos of streets to make they backgrounds (are you ever wonder why a lot of mangas are placed in japan?...dah..)

>>4104977
>>4104979
don't draw instagram thots, dude. They always photoshop the shit out of their photos.

>>4106003
mangakas using photos backgrounds is invalid since manga itself would be considered more of a product than art.
Just like how in "old centuries" you mention, artists worked under a patron and were paid to create paintings. Even back then, art could be a product, and products have deadlines.
I don't see the problem with heavy referencing for situations like group concept art and studying where the result is meant to be more of a product or an image than actual art.
This artist shows how to trace heads to study them:
https://youtu.be/ASDDp0RL9v0

But in any other context, why pass something off as yours? Why keep yourself from actually practicing instead of memorizing?
Why replace your artistic input for something stale, when you're at a level that can't transform stale into creative? Are you really that arrogant? You recognize you can't draw something good, but don't realize that means your traces won't come out good?

Do you want to end up like this guy?
https://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?id=76120&type=illust&p=20
4288 pictures of tracing pictures from Posemaniacs and not a single ounce of improvement in 8 years?

>>4106072
(cont.)
Is this what you want?
Is your goal in art to make pic related?
Become a trend-hopper, make stale cookie-cutter "art"?

If you actually know how to draw it's a great way to speed things up since what matters is the end result anyway and it's helping you go through your work faster.

On the other hand if you're a beginner and you just wanna cheat it's gonna show in the end anyway. Learn to draw and use it as reference I guess

>>4106080
>>4106072
>more of a product than art.
What is your definition of art???

>>4104304
why in the name of penis would you need 3d software for the thing of the right, you arent even using the shading of the 3d software, the most appealing parts arent even influenced by the "base"

>>4106080
You don't even need a 3D model for such a basic pose. Holy shit guys.

>>4106120
This. If all you do is trace models you're going to have a poor grasp on drawing bodies, and your art will look still and weird in the end. But if you already have a solid basis in drawing figures and just want to speed up the process, go for it. People might get on your back like >>4106072 because you're "cheating," but all that really matters in the end is the final product. As long as it looks good in the end, that's all that really matters.

>>4105740
I love dramatic poses, not bland ones
the whole mirror/camera is an unnecessary inconvenience that pose software eliminates. seriously, just give it a try someday

>>4106236
lol?

>>4106253
>"lol"
>ending phrases with "?"
summer's almost over

>>4104966
sorry my man but i cant stand the upper lip of your character. looks like FAS. but do keep practicing. no rules only tools, for what thats worth

>>4106259
Good point. I missed that.

>>4106252
>I love dramatic poses, not bland ones

This has nothing to do with "dramatic" or "bland" poses.
Your pose feels unnatural because in that kind of claw like gesture the pinky goes inward, not outward. And the hand just seems broken, nothing dramatic about it.

That's the problem of 3d: if you don't know anatomy, you can easily broke the model without noticing.

As I said, it's ok for reference, but with hands I don't really see the point of wasting time posing a 3d model, when with a mirror or a smartphone you can check the anatomy in a matter of seconds.

Hey don't put your videos on youtube; put them on Udemy and make some money. Nobody is currently making what you want to make and Manga centric courses are a treasure cove on udemy if you take advantage of it.

>>4106271
These guys don't want to check for anatomy, anon.
They want shortcuts. Funniest part is watching them unaware of their own skill level, hoping other people believe their bullshit.
If you don't know how to draw, your trace will look shit.
If you do know, you're not gonna trace, precisely because you know how to draw.

>>4106072
you missed the point completely.
Also this is not a discussion about what art is or not. What would make less sense in these days where formal art as you know and and learning today even in schools and universities is mere contact work and inflation of the subjective value of a product

>>4106286
ngmi

>>4106271
i seriously don't get it. why don't you just redline the 3d model to prove your point and teach me something?

>>4106294
You'd likely brush it off as worse than your model solely on the fact you didn't create it.

>>4106296
or you're just talking bullshit you can't prove. i'm going with that one

>>4106304
you're a delusional little prick aren't you

>>4104450
thats cgi you inbreed retard nigger faggot

>>4106304
>>4106308
It's a nice stylized hand. however the finger posing is a bit unnatural. rotate the ring finger outward.

>>4106321
Holy shit you really are a child.

>>4106325
You into children, mister?

>>4106331
How can I tell you this in zoomerspeak

Hey little kid
Tracing ain't lit
If you can't draw
it'll look like shit

>>4106351
I get it--you're sexually frustrated. Come get some child pussy.

>>4106355
This is derailing into weirdness
Just wait until blender LANPR is further developed and go all the way

>>4106364

Dude why not just go full 3D? Clearly you don't like to draw? Maybe you like the look of 2D. In either case maybe the 3D board is more your ally.

>all of this autism instead of judt fucking drawing.

>>4106325
I don't know which anon you are, but I was agreeing with both of you guys and gave suggestions on how it could be improved

>>4104304
She cute

>>4106325
>>4106331
>>4106355

this reads straight out of a doujin lol

>>4106458
We’re stuck in a doujin trapped forever

>>4106400
essentially the purpose of this thread is figuring out how to get around having to draw figures to make art

>>4106626
stop being a retard. using reference is only cheat in your virgin head. the only thing that counts is the final result

>>4106626
I use 3d models mostly for speeding up shit and skipping right into the rendering phase. Do I recommend it for beginners? No you’ll end up using it as a crutch, learn your anatomy, perspective beforehand and drawing skills. Is using 3d models bad? No it can be used for perfect perspective and speeding shit up if effectively use.

>>4106676
nice reading comprehension faggot. everyone on this board wants to draw characters, but no one wants to actually learn how to draw. every other thread is about finding out a way to learn less in order to make terrible generic art. a sea of eternal ngmis.

>>4106700
Lol even pros use 3D models. I don't even like using them myself but there's nothing inherently wrong with using 3D shortcuts to speed up the process, so long as you know what you're doing. If you don't like 3D models just don't use them, no need to reee at people trying to make use of their resources.

>>4106700
pyw

>>4104450
That's not how that works anon, that's called 3DCG

this >>4106316

>>4104450
It amazes me how much people woon over anime and manga when so much of it is just cheap cgi or tracings of 3d these days

>>4104450
>>4107231
>t. Misty

That's not how animation works you fucking retard.

>>4107231
So, can you do it? Make a 3d model/animations OR rotoscope it?

>>4104936
>s-so what if grinded all the fundies for several years on end, he's not from the glorious nippon!!
go die in a fuckin hole you braindead anti-logic nigger

>>4104304
Develop your skills into full blown Rotoscope then do it.

>>4104304
>tracing
fuck that shit, I only use it to set up my character in perspective then I discard the model

>>4104321
>let
let means you're lacking something, why do so many people use this meme wrong?
the most common use: brainlet
lacking a brain

>>4104466
This is so fucking impressive
like the guy has insane mechanical knowledges+ modeling skills + painting skills
probably some 170 iq chink

>>4111691
it's a /3/ meme you retard

>>4111813
no it's not

>>4111844
do you even go on /3/? Seriously?

It's a term meant for Blender users because Blender is seen as an inferior program (perhaps unfairly).

>>4105490

No he can't. His bigger pieces take like 40 hours

>>4104304
Depends what do you want to make. DO you want to make pictures, or to spend time drawing? If the first, anything you do any feel good about results is going to be a valid way. Please disregard are these arbitrary opinions other anons make about what is the "proper" way of making pictures. 3d also gives you nice tools for animations, testing things etc, while drawing doesn't. Both have advantages and distadvantages, but claiming like others did that putting more effort into "simple standing pose" is a disadvantage is wrong. Usually a simple, natural standing pose is MUCH more difficult to do than a dynamic fighting one, since gestur and balance is much more refined and subtle to do.

>>4104304
>tracing

It's not a bad idea op but the target audience is kind of niche. If they are complete beginners their 3D models are gonna be all janky and they won't realize where they went wrong. You yourself have to be very good so you can target intermediate artists. And once you are at an intermediate level a pose like the one in there OP image is trivial to draw in a few minutes.

I think your series would be more successful if it focuses on bodies in perspective using deep angles and things like interior design and machinery. Simple pinup poses are too easy for intermediate artists but would still get fucked up by beginners unknowingly making bad models.

>>4104409
People in the industry do use 3d model references for that purpose but they also dont follow that model literally. It is a reference to sketch. Tracing a 3d model will leave your drawing stiff and boring unless you spend even more time posing the 3D model to not be stiff. It adds a step for no reason.

OP, you are delusional if you think that is a good shortcut. Professional 3d modelers know how to draw 2d as well.
>>4104304
>I'm considering starting a YouTube series about how to make 3D models for the explicit purpose of tracing.
>
>I've been making 3D models all year and I've gotten pretty good at making them. I could easily make some 3D models and follow a program like Draw A Box for the series. No rules, only tools right?
>
>What does /ic/ think of this?

>>4111707
>probably some 170 iq chink
looks like shit taste coom to me

>>4104304
please do and link yt channel, dont listen to crabs

>>4104304
I'd watch it

I got hired for the environment artist in a small game studio because one of my old painted over sketchup model. I think they want me to use that method to make props and shit but I feel like it's cheating guys... what should I do

>>4116763
there is work, and there is training

they hired you to do work, not to train

you feel like you are cheating because you dont feel you are training, but at the end of the day, you are training so you can work

if you need the money or want to have on your resume working there, but at the same time train for a better working or for yourself, then take the job and train in your free time

if you dont need the money, and want to keep training until you get a higher job, dont take the job and keep training

its as simple as that, hope I helped you understand your feelings, now its up to you to decide what you want to follow

>>4116768
thank you so much for this. Just 1 week in and I have a lot of mixed feelings about the job. I just graduated with a non art related degree so I feel very insecure about my skills. But I really love and need this job. I want to make it in the game industry.
Using this method really helps saving alot of time. I did this with modeling and then painted over took me about 3 days but without it maybe 2 weeks from scratch I guess lol.

>>4104314
Your art looks really good. I would learn to draw just because it’s fun and does something to the way you observe art and reality.

>>4104304
making a quick sketch and then using 3d to pose it out and get angles then re-drawing it is okay to?

Did someone say 3D models?

>>4117570
aaaaaaaaaaaaa

>>4117570
Bane?

>>4117570
What is this 3d model from?

>>4117860
https://bowlroll.net/file/168485

>>4118574
cunnygatou

>>4118651
You can't say that!

>>4118651
Never mind, seems like that bastard removed the old versions and locked the newest one behind a community gate. You didn't get this from me, alright?

>>4105697
Actual Mangaka

>this fucking thread

As someone who has been working in the industry for almost 10 years now I will say that 3d models aren't going to help you. The reason why is as follows: For a 3d model to look good you have to understand what makes a person look good and most importantly natural. You have to understand things like how weight and balance affect the appearance of the body all while making it look expressive and gestural. If you understand this already then the 3d model becomes pointless.

3d models are just hard shells with no internal anatomy. Even if you use a program like 3DPoser that has anatomy morphs built into it, you will never account for things like gravity and self collision.

Now here is the kicker. Lets say 10 years from now we have technology that can perfectly simulate every detail of the human body and we can make people look super realistic in a simulated setting and this technology is accessible to the public. Even this will not be enough because you will still need to learn how to compose and design the body to make it look artistically appealing. Design>Detail

at best you can use 3d models as a very general vague guide to help you place masses proportionately in space. But learning to do this on your own without 3d models is far more of a super power because of the amount of control that it gives you as an artist. But be my guest and waste your time down this path. More job opportunities for me.

>>4104404
>>4104936
>>4104428
Pretty sure this is a korean artist
>>4104415
>Implying

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0S_YrbDBPG/

>>4119393
Thanks for the link
Where does he even distribute the key though? He doesn't even seem to have a patreon/fanbox.

>>4120391
Lol a d/ic/k did this, he posted it to an earlier thread
>>4104369

>>4120808
He used to distribute them with password hints, but then moved on to give out passwords only within communities of ~40 people. Joining means getting approved, though, and they're pretty exclusive.

>>4120846
Damn what a cunt, even a paywall would be better than this secret club faggotry

does john doe paint over 3d? some of his stuff kind of looks like he does, not that that's a bad thing. does anyone know when or if john doe streams his art? he has a https://piczel.tv/gallery/johndoe but the site doesn't seem to save any of the recording if he does. I like his art and I want to know if there is any big name artists that do, so I will feel a little better about doing it myself.

>>4120361
oh shut the fuck up. no one will read your post, i didn't even read it, faggot

>>4123318
That's really fucking weird, the thumbnail looks like a photo.

>>4116786
this looks fucking great. i wanna learn to do that

>>4104335
I can make it higher quality faster with 3D than you can imagine.
I’d explain how but I’m an asshole and I don’t want /ic/ to improve.

Stay bas D/ic/ks

>>4104947
>>4104948
>>4104966
I'm sorry but these look like utter ass shit.

It is true its possible to become a good 3d artist and not have to master drawing, but the problem is that it wastes too much time compared to mastering drawing first, then learning 3d (especially stylized npr 3d)
The biggest issue that must be solved first in any art is learning how to see. Seeing the overall forms of the 3d model in different angles, the proportional differences between features (like analyzing the distance between the mouth and bottom chin) etc.
The best way to learn how to see is reading either "keys to drawing" or "drawing on the right side of the brain". Then look good models made by professionals and realize that yours is atrocious and you have to get to the grind and you're set from there.

/3/ is a goldmine of 3d resources, they're hidden in various posts and there's not official thread (other than wip or questions)
pinterest is another eden that has decent 3d tutorials and examples. But general studies will be to look at examples of good models and analyzing their mesh and textures etc.
ganbatte anon

>>4123863
Is that 3d model available anywhere? Looks fucking sick

>>4123318
>does john doe paint over 3d?
Just look at the leg joint on the left model, of course he is

>>4123899
You could just buy a nice doll from the children’s section at kmart

>>4104304
>how to make 3D models for the explicit purpose of tracing.
Why would anyone give a shit when CSP literally offers everything you'd be able to show and more already built in?

>>4125747
People think I'm wierd enough, I'll be crucified if I buy a doll

>>4104304
Is it free? If so, you are not damaging anyone but yourself so fuck /ic/ opinion and do it anon
I would like to 3d model for some poses that include many characters but my PC is so shit I doubt anything but photoshop will run

>>4127679
If you can run Photoshop, you can run DesignDoll, Daz or Blender

>>4123365
ngmi

>>4120361
>As someone who has been working in the industry for almost 10 years now I will say that 3d models aren't going to help you.

10 years in your industry and you have NEVER came across the process of Photobashing? I doubt you're telling the truth.

>>4104337
maybe instead of making brainlet posts and cringe youtube channels for ngmi animefuckers, you should improve until you're good at 3d modelling and apply for a job in video game industry. they have thousands of wannabe concept artists but talented modellers are harder to find.

>>4127679
Use CSP model, is the easiest to use.

>>4104966

>>4104966
Why would you model the head in detail, of all things? The face and hair are the last things you should trace. Even in the OP image the body is what's used.
3D is best used as a perspective/foreshortening aid.

>>4104304
Love it. Wish I could do this myself and stop bothering with this designdoll piece of shit app

>>4129194
rude, people died making that App.

>>4127677
At the counter, ask if they can wrap it up nicely as a present, that way they'll think you're buying it for your little niece or sister or whatever. I do this everytime i buy emberassing stuff, like magical girl manga, or animal crossing amiibos, that'd just seem weird if i bought it for myself.

/ic/ is not where you come to learn to draw. It's where you come for excuses not to learn to draw.
The use of any tool at all that can expedite the process and make it anything but the most tedious, time consuming and grindy shit ever immediately ruining all your effort forever is the perfect excuse for people who don't plan to show any improvement ever.

>>4104966
imagine if she didn't have cryptkeeper face

Any updates OP?

>>4130791
>>4128524
ew

>>4104304
>I'm considering starting a YouTube series about how to make 3D models for the explicit purpose of tracing.
You should absolutely do it, OP.

>>4104304
I think it's a shit idea, but there is one thing I'd like to see, and that's a series of 3D anime heads in various styles (with the option to change the expressions) to use as reference. The idea isn't to trace, but to have a 3D reference, instead of having to rely on 2D art, considering many styles have inherent flaws, which makes learning from them counter-intuitive.
With an actual 3D model, it's easier to learn how to draw accurately from any angle, which would then allow artists to stylize as they get the basics down.
The best example of what I'm talking about I found in the back of some doujin.

>>4133451
sauce?

lame

Did this nigger make his youtube yet?

>>4139311
Congratulations /ic/ you finally stopped anon frok doing something productive for everyone else in the world
Truly the pinnacle of creativity