/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

because you don’t utilize references

>>3482274
isn't that cheating?

>>3482289
It's like you're purposefully trying not to make it.

>>3482289
Literally NGMI

>>3482289
No it’s not cheating. Using references makes your art better. Successful, professional artists USE REFERENCES. just don’t get stuck on them. Keep drawing from your imagination and utilizing reference to refine the forms you drew from imagination

>>3482304
>>3482305
>>3482311
But it's the journey not the destination?
I would prefer to take the long and difficult road and become a stronger man

>>3482341

Negative. Using references makes you a better artist. When you study the reference to refine your piece you gain the knowledge that reference is giving you. If you use them effectively at least. So over time you collect these bread crumbs of knowledge that piece together until you’ve got the full picture of how a leg muscle works or how a nipple casts a shadow or whatever, so then you no longer need references for every little thing. Even when drawing the leg or nipple from a different angle. References help you not only draw what you’re drawing now but help you understand your subject.

>>3482341
how can you know what something is supposed to LOOK LIKE if you don't LOOK AT IT

>>3482346
Understand your subject and how it exists in 3 dimensional space*
Wanted to clarify that

>>3482274
literally the worst answer
I mean that literally
it's like you've never gone into the porn threads here and seen people who use "references"

>>3482353
>Equating utilizing references with tracing

Okay lol

>>3482355
yes that must be what I'm equating that is the only thing to ascertain from what I said wow good job you are very smart and a good artist wow good

>>3482356
What else could you possibly mean? Why are people so afraid of references?

NiBBa, do you even into Construction Drawing™ or Drawabox™?

>>3482364
that's actually less ambitious than the top down view in the OP

>>3482373
:^)

>>3482397
if making me horny counts as "making it", then yeah

>>3482373
>less ambitious
your are so beginner you have no idea what you're even talking about

>>3482289
yes dont listen to other or the art police will get you

>>3482409
!!!

>>3482273
holy shit kek

>>3482273
Maybe you should just assume the position and get someone to photograph you and then draw that, OP. Then you'd be able to get a perfect 1:1 because drawing without a perfect ref is a horrible and painful endeavour

>>3482409
!!!

>>3482427
> drawing without a perfect ref is a horrible and painful endeavour
that's true
when you can't draw, drawing is a painful endeavor

>>3482434
>go onto concept art dot org
>noob asks pro how he drew pose
>pro answers 'I organised a photoshoot with a model'
>go onto concept art dot org
>noob says 'wow you've improved at figure drawing a lot'
>pro says 'yeah I literally got a model out of DAZ and posed it and now I ""draw"" like a pro well what the client doesn't know can't harm them lol'
>go onto concept art youtube video
>well we're crazy xD AND IN OUR COMPANY WE GET ALL OUR ARTISTS TO DRESS UP AND POSE SO WE CAN DRAW THEM IN THE CONCEPT ART *shows concept art that is almost identical to photo of artists posing* by the way cartooning is the hardest because it requires actual skill whereas when we're drafting we just model it in 3D
To be fair

>>3482273
BOI HE FINNA DAB ON DEM HOES

>>3482434
Then get learned on how 2 draw
Just do it™

>>3482440
if you want to make a product and don't care about actual drawing do whatever you want, you won't care and nobody else cares about you
if you want to draw learn how to fucking draw
learn how to fucking draw, loomis it up with construction

>>3482448
Everyone uses references except those autists who have drawn in every pose they can replicate it in their entirety. Or those people who outright lie to mislead gullible people like OP. >>3482311

>>3482448
You think the old masters didn't use refs?

>>3482440
So,
the difference between a noob and a pro is
that a pro has enough humility to use any means necessary to get the job done,
whereas a noob insists on drawing from their limited understanding of reality
(to such a degree that they see photos, models, 3D programs as "cheating")?

>>3482454
I feel like the pros know 3D inside out alongside 2D (master studies/3D/flawless rendering everything) inside out with enough imagination to get the sketches out and then are modelling their imagination out and that might be the key to 100% flawless art. Even in that vid I was watching, their director was saying - well learn perspective if you want but I'm just saying it's super outdated and why not use all these 3D tools and kinda hinting it's a waste of time.

But he did say that stylisation required actual skill and then showed a cartoon that was basically painted on a photo scene. You can see the whole vid here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYbYvImd7Bw

>>3482450
lying isn't cool anon
maybe you have to bullshit just to make yourself feel better

>>3482458
Hmm. Interesting.
I'll visit /3/ more frequently, then.

Thanks for the info.
I'll watch the video.

>>3482460
Maybe you should just watch the video for yourself.

And also this:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php/272214-Pindurski-s-Sketchbook/page58
>Minor update after some comments by Donato regarding that smoke trail... small change - big difference!!! Behind the scenes I've now gathered my reference and I've actually organized a photoshoot with a model (primarily for the Magic card), but while I have her I'll get this pose and lighting (hopefully) nailed down too.

>>3482463
maybe you should read this, words from somebody who could actually draw and paint and not just a product making salaryman

>>3482463
>>3482451
>>3482450
>everybody uses references
Yes, boxes and cylinders are impossible to draw. Vilppu and Kim Jung Gi actually have 50000 photos around the cameraman every time they're on camera.

>>3482467
You've highlighted the important part - he's using a model. And you barely even need construction for small rough sketches as long as you aren't completely shit it works just fine. But using construction for lighting and value? Now you are shitting me. Unless you are krenz/ruan jia tier maybe but I have seen a lot of artists say that they admire people like Ruan Jia because they can draw. And they don't engage in the cheatery.

>>3482478
you should decide on a brand of bullshit you want to spew and stick with it, you're all over the place
I can't even imagine how somebody is so fucking ignorant as you can even exist

>>3482480
Chinese kids start getting examined at the age of about 3 years old for any signs of talent. I highly doubt many westerners on /ic/ will ever match his progress.

>>3482483
should've examined him for for signs that he had any ability to learn how to draw instead of doing grotesque randomly filtered shit that ic kids love

>>3482485
And if you actually listened to RJ's stream he also says during it that he posed for his own drawings as references. That's why the chinks started spamming the equivalent of wwwwwwwwwww and said he was cute.

>>3482488
ruan jia is shit, if you would bother reading what I've said
but no you'd rather just lalalala to yourself and believe whatever you want like an ignorant shit, so be it

>>3482489
Well okay: which pro artist didn't use references again? Unless Leyendecker simply used a model after he had actually finished the piece.

>>3482489
More to the point, what is the quality of your work like without using references?

>>3482489
If you can construct a flawless figure sketch without reference, can you also flawlessly construct the correct values on top of flawless constructing the light and shade on top of flawless constructing the colour?

sometimes I forget about how little people here actually know about drawing
it's like you folks think that nobody has ever thought about how light and shadow work before, or that constructive drawing just ~doesn't exist~
fucking hell

>>3482498
>it's like you folks think that nobody has ever thought about how light and shadow work before
Well you can enhance my knowledge of how light and shadow works right now by reproducing the path of light through a tree through a series of vertical blinds at 3 PM in the afternoon sun with no references right now onto the clothed body of a girl wearing a wedding dress.

>>3482502
wow how does light work when it passes through a tree
wow how would that remaining light react while traveling through vertical blinds (at 3pm?)
wow how would that THEN remaining light then react on the clothed body of someone

wow fucking rocket science wow really checkmated me there mate wow

>>3482498
Because you know, I read Gurney's Color and Light book back to back and although he comments on a number of rules that can be applied to painting realistically he also mentions several times throughout the book about the usefulness of taking photos (and subsequently using them as reference.)

>>3482505
>wow that's not hard at all
Okay so now draw that for me right now without a reference. And yes I am waiting.

>>3482505
And just remember that in the actual work environment you have a time limit but I'm going to go easy on you and say that you have at least 7 days. If I check back and this thread has died before then ghostpost it on warosu.

>>3482508
>>3482506
yes I will waste my time for some random ignorant shitposter on an imageboard, I believe this is something worth my time because: ????

feel free to think that this "proves you right" all you want, you're the one who doesn't know shit about drawing and will never learn because of your self imposed ideas about what "everybody" does, not me
I'm just always amused when I get reminded that there are people who are as bloody ignorant as you around here giving "advice"

>>3482511
>I'm just always amused when I get reminded that there are people who are as bloody ignorant as you around here giving "advice"
Then show me the proof that your advice is worth sticking to and not binning. To what extent has your own advice not hindered your own artistic development?

>>3482513
show me you're not some dumb fuck who believes in fallacies and maybe I'll care about what you think
but you haven't and I don't

>>3482516
I have no opinion other than the videos that have been posted on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYbYvImd7Bw

This guy is an art director. What are you anon?

And you said this:
>lying isn't cool anon
>maybe you have to bullshit just to make yourself feel better
What did you mean by this? I am merely paraphrasing what the art director said.

I also asked you to show proof that your position will yield more results than what that art director said.

You posted nothing and said that you wouldn't waste your time. Doing what? Aren't you drawing right now?

>>3482341
so, what? your just gonna wait around for some epiphany how muscles connect to bones or something? I don't geddit

>>3482427
>because drawing without a perfect ref is a horrible and painful endeavour
I think it's the exact opposite. Reference is boring as fuck. Imagination is way more fun (even if it often looks worse)

>>3482478
On the contrary. Light is a fairly simple thing to simulate, light lands on surfaces pointed towards it and surfaces turned away are in shadow.
Considering that construction entails 3D objects with sides and planes, you can use construction to determine lighting.

>>3482592
I think the part that trips me up the most is reflected light especially with glass and upward/downturning planes having different colours. As well as the positioning of occlusion shadows with respect to the core of the shadow on fabric.

>>3482341
not in this case you absolute donkey, you have a idiotic idea of what art is about. if you seriously want to get better FORGET everything you think you know about art, all your ideas and preconceptions and start from scratch.

>>3482356
you are not as smart as you think

>>3482571
You can do both? You draw something from imagination and then find a similar pose to use as r-e-f-e-r-e-n-c-e.

>>3482571
Imagination is more fun when it works but I usually do both.

>talks about perspective
>doesn't even try to use vanishing points or construction
>wonders why things look flat
but those things are only memes aren't they, better just keeping banging your head against the brick wall right

also, bonus:
>just use references lol

the fucking state

>>3482477
Congratulations on naming an extreme outlier and someone who has experience drawing for so long he no longer needs it. Why don't you post some work so we can see the power of no reference.

>>3482289

Please, use reference as much you want actually because that will help you draw better.

>>3482741
Nobody said that you NEVER EVER use reference, but you can't copy reference exactly all the time. You use references to supplement your drawings and to use to refresh your memory.
Other than that, the bulk of your work should be done by construction drawing and your acquired anatomy knowledge.

>>3482749
this is the thing people on both sides fail to realize. the people who want to ban references and the people who use references incorrectly. copying every aspect of a reference is a study. references are like you said supposed to supplement

as a /beg/ using refs this way is less helpful because the foundation isn't solid yet. so in the case of op he should find a reference that is like his drawing and study (copy) that. try to absorb the discrepancies, and attempt redrawing from imagination. studying from refs shouldn't be blind copying because then you might as well trace. it should teach you something (while helping to refine your piece)

>>3482799
>>3482749
Probably the best pov

Welp I gave it a shot. Pls no bully for fingers. Im studying hands tomorrow :(

>>3482273
>Flat naruto dabbing with a dildo in the ass
based
>>3482289
How to use ref for dummies

>>3482289
who the fuck told you that
tell me where they are

>>3483858
OP said they wanted it in perspective. Technically it is possible to do it from OP's POV. Realistically my attempt plus other anon's attempt are definitely from a cheaper/easier angle. Try this exercise first from imagination (Krenz's rotation tutorial on cgpeers or off the archives is good for this exercise). You'll probably find after trying this that your crawling visual library is deficient so practicing from reference after this will help to patch any holes you face.

>>3482405
and a pro like you is impressed by >>3482397
lmao

>>3483889
It is in perspective lmao. I just made sure it was the same pose as OP rather than deviate. It was more to show it was possible, not that it is good.

>>3483893
Well yeah perspective is not going to be all that obvious in that pose from this angle

Perspective is not op's problem so much as the fact he can't fucking draw a human figure, full stop.

proper scan

>>3483893
Yeah it's p. difficult to see perspective from that angle. You could also try from the buttocks or the top of the back. The ground shot up is also another option.

>>3483915
there is no sense that the back curves upward toward us or that the head is anything other than a small tray of nachos. needs construction.

>>3482434
99% of artists can't 'draw' in that sense. Drawing well without good reference requires a LOT of knowledge, skill, intuition for form, space, and perspective. The vast majority of artists can't actually do it, because they don't know anatomy, gesture and perspective well enough.

>>3483899
>>3483921
I revisited it today and realized how fucked my torso was. Also made changes to improve pelvic tilt visibility. Also donger.

>>3483899
>>3483921
I revisited it today and fixed the fucked up torso length. Also added donger.

>>3484558
>those fuckin hands
its looking good keep pushing, anon

>>3484563
To be fair this was the original post lmao >>3483858

>>3484558
Make her right arm longer m80

>>3484654

>>3484719
your hatching gives minimal/incorrect form and makes her asshole and pussy look completely misplaced. I thought it was a dude with a stretched out asshole
plus the framing/crop is just wtf. if you want to draw porn (and make money/draw interest from it) you need to frame it better. in a point of view picture like this why would you make it horizontal and not vertical?

>>3484728
desu I was just mimicking OPs abysmal pose/framing for the meme. Doing porn for money aint a bad idea though...

>>3484719
make the right arm shorter

>>3484193
400% of statistics are pulled out of asses

>>3484654
>>3484728
>her

>>3482273
please draw some things from life for a few months. your mark making and line confidence are that of a 10 year old.

>>3483889
>Technically it is possible to do it from OP's POV.
/beg/ here, How do you do it? Like where do you put the horizon line?

>>3486421
its top down? there is no horizon line

>>3486427
There is always a horizon line.

>>3486431
the horizon line is your frame if your camera is directly above

is that fucking doujima?

>>3486421
Don't think too much about perspective that way when drawing figures. Forget vanishing points and horizon lines, just think more about how forms of any sort can be oriented in 3D space, what they look like if viewed from above or underneath, what they look like when receding away from the viewer or coming towards the viewer (try doing a lot of drawings with wrapping lines to get this idea).

Perspective becomes more relevant for figures when they're gigantic or viewed up close. For full-body figure drawings, perspective is less exaggerated and can be approximated. Think more about the orientation of the body parts (limbs, head, ribcage and pelvis), how everything is tilted.

you are not an artist if you don't have the money or social clout to have live models available on demand to pose for you

>>3486807
Just assume the position and photograph yourself

>>3486818
what if you're deformed

>>3482571
If you're going to refuse to learn in favor of "fun" you can't complain about not improving.

>>3486508
Thanks anon, I'll try that.

>>3482289
It is. Also using a pencil is cheating. You should be drawing by scratching at the paper with your fingernails if you want to be a """real""" artist.