/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>3453631
...so who is the winner?

>>3453654
you're mom XD

>>3453654
They didn't want to pick a winner cuz the winner would have been published in SJ.

>>3453631
rip naf

>>3453669
so what's the point then..?

>>3453631
did you send yours in anon? they probably discarded all westerner tumblr comic right away

>>3453669
>cuz the winner would have been published in SJ.
wasn't that the whole purpose of this contest?

>>3453631
Which was yours anon?

>>3453669
>>3453673
>>3453677
It's a business in the end, if nothing was up to the standards they wanted for their audience they're not going to publish it. Feels pretty shady though to not give a first prize.

>>3453631
Whoa I don't remember seeing all these good manga before.

>>3453697
so for all intent and purposed the runner up is the actual winner..but apparently still not good enough to be published.
that's gotta hurt

>>3453631
Don't be too down on yourself. I've entered a ton of manga competitions in the past and never won. Closest was one of the finalists the gear before they stopped running the rising Stars of manga contest.

I sell my art now and get crazy reception Nat cons. Either keep trying or go down other avenues. Line webtoon isna great opportunity and probably much more likely for success than winning an international manga competition

>>3453654
Nobody. I've seen better from Japanese middle schoolers wouldn't surprise me if runner up was just to pick something

>>3453709
The runner up will be published as a one-shot from how I understand it, just not serialized.

>>3453712
Competition sure is tough. Most of the ones in the results were Asian too. There's only like, Russian, French and Spanish? A lot of Japanese ones were chosen too.

>>3453631
I feel bad for all the editors who had to go through that sea of garbage just to find a bunch of passable stuff that wasn't good enough to get published in the first place.
What a waste of time and effort.

>>3453712
I really don't want to rub salt into the wounds of the people who did participate, but I got so much shit in the comics thread a couple weeks ago for even suggesting that the skill level of aspiring japanese mangaka who are trying to make it into Jump is so much higher than that of these entries. Some people in that thread were apparently convinced that their work is on par or better than most published manga, including that of fucking Kishimoto himself.

This reality check might be a good thing for some. Hope they don't give up on their passion through.

>>3453723
You shouldn't. That's their job. They're used to it.

>>3453723
Yeah, a lot of it really is garbage, a few nice ones, and I think on top of that a lot of people misunderstand what exactly Shounen Jump is looking for in these submissions.

>>3453725
B-BUT I READ BAKUMAN FOUR TIMES, I KNEW ALL THE INSIDER SECRETS

>>3453725
that's true

>>3453631
Okay, holy shit. I can't read the runner up because it's not in English, but the visuals and the designs are amazing. You can already sort of get a feel for the story through just the visuals too. The action was very nice. And there's even already a best girl who you know will come back as a character to join the cast.

>>3453725
Hopefully we'll get to see a few disillusioned folks react then. It's okay if your work sucks and you aim to improve, but thinking you're top shit while your work is trash is a problem. Work to improve.
Though if theyre particularly dillusional it'll just be "Theyre all hacks! They dunno good comicz when they see 'em!" Or "My work is so much better! They're just picking 'x' cause I'm not a nip!"

>>3453728
>a lot of people misunderstand what exactly Shounen Jump is looking for in these submissions.
Exactly.
Most of these people were doing their own thing, without realizing that all Shonen Jump wants is, well, Shonen Jump.

I think the artists legitimately though that the could do whatever they wanted and pass it as "adding some diversity and variety to Jump", with little regard towards the readership, which is what's happening with western comics. If that's the case, then it's no wonder they threw almost every western entry into the trash.

I wouldn't be surprised if I found some cunt on tumblr whining that her entry didn't made it in and calling the editors sexist bigots or something.

>>3453740
Did you actually read every English entry?

>see submissions
oof
I personally wished Kishimoto or some other shounen jump artist would roast a few of these shit comics to show everyone next time on what NOT to do.

>>3453756
It's a no brainer which are shit. Try finding the non-shit ones that didn't make it.

>>3453751
That would be suicide, anon.

>There are many artists who drew works with a lot of energy and I enjoyed seeing the various styles. The artists have different visions of the world in their stories and there were distinct ways that their characters were presented, but there was no particular character that stood out to me. The artist's culture and background were reflected in the works and that made selecting them enjoyable.

So work on your characters, people.

wow, look at that effort!
how come this didn't made it into the finalists?

So i have to make One Piece clone or something if i want to win and get published? that seem unfair.

>>3453849
no, you just have to make a good manga with a main character that isn't completely forgettable and generic.

>>3453673
>>3453697
These are my entries:

https://medibang.com/book/0o1712240724059010004309649/view/
https://medibang.com/book/1n1801041429027430004309649

Feel free to judge for yourselves how this stacks to anything that won. Personally, I'm a bit shocked that neither mine, nor any of the ones that I thought were pretty good like: Dracula's Return, Subatomic Brat, Merrivius and the Corrupted Forest, or Deity, even got an honorable mention. I know it's hard to be objective when it comes to your own stuff, but I at least felt one of those would also place, but they also didn't get mentioned, and a lot of the stuff that won, honestly isn't that great. Like, there's even one in the finalists that Kishi comments that it feels like it's traced.

I suppose there's the possibility that Kodansha got first dibs, and Jump was left with the scraps. The results for the Kodansha contest haven't come in yet. But I'm personally not holding my breath for winning anything. I'm gonna go through and try to get a sustainable income through Medibang+Patreon and just push the manga ourselves. It's not like we didn't have a contingency plan regardless. I'm just confused by the results more than anything else. Like, the Spanish entry about the animals, the French entry about Santa, the Body Parts one, the Korean one that's overdrawn, and the traced one, imo, are lesser to any of the ones I mentioned above. But those are just my thoughts. I wanna hear what /ic/ thinks.

Also, I'll dump some pages for crit if you guys are interested in seeing the newer stuff. I'll admit that my contest entries are lacking in comparison to the newer stuff. And I can be humble enough to admit that simply, maybe I just wasn't good enough. So, whatever I can improve overall is always a plus. I'm still gonna go through with trying to make this work.

>>3453849
No, you have a to make a Naruto clone, considering what won. Figures really.

>>3453862
There was no winning manga and neither the runner up nor the finalists sound anything like Naruto. Don't be so salty.

>>3453631
Well, since I didn't get any feedback from Jump, crit?

https://medibang.com/book/0o1712240724059010004309649/view/

https://medibang.com/book/1n1801041429027430004309649/view/

What can I do to get better? What am I missing?

Also, if you guys want, I can dump a few spreads of the fight sequence in the newer stuff for feedback. They're unfinished btw, still gotta do the toning and some backgrounds. I wanna improve. Clearly I'm just not good enough.

>>3453901

>>3453908

>>3453912

>>3453914

>>3453917
And this is the last one I'll post so as to not flood the thread. it's the final page for 2. Maybe without context it's hard to give feedback. Also, I plan on redrawing the 3rd panel on the right page. It's just too flat imo. I could do it better with a slight 3pt perspective to help add more depth, especially since she's shorter than him, and it's almost a POV shot.

>>3453860
I think what >>3453784 says is basically why yours don't work. None of your characters really stand out and your focus is more so on action and the world. I think your designs need more work too, the villain is someone who I don't even remember after reading. What was even his name? So forgettable. All I remember is he wants to be tested. For Kyle, I feel like the impact isn't really there. There's just a flashback with him and his coach talking constantly about training and wants, but his want just feels selfish since there isn't many other characters except for the coach. It's shallow is how I would put it. Tiger Square World's world actually feels empty since they're just in a forest. I think the issue with Onigiri was that his adversary wasn't very strong to create enough of an impact too. He just kind of casually smashes and then befriends the cat. Tiger Square World was more focused on character dynamism and interaction rather than motive. It's a whole lot of pages for not much development. You don't really feel what and how he's going to do the next thing, whatever that next thing is. The Spanish entry about the animals was really good. Sucks that there won't be more. I really felt for those characters, all that hard work, tears and blood shed for the final page. The French entry about Santa reads very shonen to me with its gags and hope, but I don't what it's saying so I can't comment on that. I don't know about Free Hand, since it's so short and I can't read Japanese. Which Korean one is overdrawn? The school one? Maybe people are able to relate to it. I can't read Korean either. Inker was really cool, it does kind of look traced, but I think it's because the artist was going for a contrast between realism and the main character's creations. It started off kind of like a seinen, but once the manga character appears and slays down the monster, it felt like a shonen.

>>3453901
Maybe this>>3453857
i think you may need more unique art style and characters to get their attention since your manga is already have good quality.

>>3453929
That's fair enough. Personally, I felt the characterization in the eSports one was weak too. I never liked Kyle all that too much, and really only his motivation was the only driving quality for him. That's where I think the actual manga is a lot stronger. The characters there are much more likeable/relatable. I really wanna get 1+2 done so I can post them here and get some feedback. Going into it, and especially in contrast to the the first chapter of the actual manga, the eSports one I do feel is weak when it comes to character "likeablity" if that makes sense.

What about the panelling? That's an area I think I could personally improve upon. That's also why I posted the newer pages. I do feel I've made progress since 6ish months ago.

>>3453919
I really like these pages. It's cute.

>>3453935
>more unique art style
Any suggestions?

>>3453631
Jesus christ. Manga & anime artists are all drones. Most of these pieces seem like they could've been made by the same artists. There is absolutely no diverging from the same cookie-cutter techniques allowed, is there? It's pathetic that this is the endgame of so many people here.

>>3453945
Maybe... Soul Eater?

>>3453945
Not that guy, but considering what you posted. I'd say you're headed in the right direction. Just keep pushing. I know that's not very helpful, but you've improved a lot in just 6 months. This is considerably better than the two you entered in the contest.

One bit of advice I would give, is to make your lines a tad bit thinner on the characters. The outlines really stick out, and it's distracting. It also flattens things a lot. Do some studies, and work on your line variation, as well as just using pure blacks to create contrast.

story > art
look at attack on titan first chapters

>>3453963
and that's why it wasn't published in jump

>>3453941
I think you could space them out more to give breathing room. That's a main issue I see with them. I'm not experienced with paneling, so I would say to take notes from the runner-up. There's just something about that manga that read well and felt like an actual shounen manga.

>>3453725
>the skill level of aspiring japanese mangaka who are trying to make it into Jump is so much higher
Correct by high school they're practically indistinguishable from pros

>>3453725
>Hope they don't give up on their passion through.
I honestly believe it's possible for foreigners you just need to be really extraordinary. Kodansha is the better route anyways IMO so no need to feel bad about this :)

>>3453725
Everyone on /a/ thinks they can do better than most popular manga. They're hot headed fools. None of them try though, so they're just fooling around. The few that do are just inexperienced, but have good intentions.

>>3453901
>What can I do to get better? What am I missing?

The reason they hold these international contests is to find someone with an interesting idea and fresh point of view that is different from the Japanese. Regurgitating what they already publish is not the best way to go about it.

Manga isn't just about drawing fight scenes. You are first and foremost an author. Write what you know.

>>3453740
>I wouldn't be surprised if I found some cunt on tumblr whining that her entry didn't made it in and calling the editors sexist bigots or something.
i don't think anyone on tumblr knew about it, i never saw any posts about it

maybe they're more sensible over there..

any info about author of Radiant? he's from France

>>3453901
You're better than most people on this board and everyone always praises you when you post but I hope you didn't let those compliments get to your head. As of right now your work is amateurish and nowhere near good enough to get published in a Japanese magazine. Just everything about your submission screams "westerner trying to draw a manga" which isn't a good thing. You might ask, what's the point of SJ asking for foreign entries if they just want stuff that looks Japanese. But if you look at the number of foreigners (other Asians but some westerners as well) that have some degree of success in Japan their artwork doesn't look like it came out of an American "how to draw anime" book. If you want to look at westerners who have broken into the Japanese scene then you can look up BahiJD and namgoreng on Twitter. Granted, the former is an animator and the latter is an illustrator. I don't know any westerners who have gotten their manga published.

>>3453912
honestly it's a little hard to tell what's going on at first glance. the ass shots don't help

>>3453919
this is endearing.

>>3454043
I think that's a fair assessment. However, I think the time it'll take me to get to the level, is beyond what I'm willing to afford at the current moment. The only way I can improve at making manga, is by making manga. With enough time, I think I will eventually attain that level of professionalism.

Tiger Square I think is a story worth telling, and one that I think many people will latch onto and like. Character is one of the things I do think was lacking in that one shot, and what the actual manga has. It's not "an esports manga" nor is it a "fighting game manga" it's a story about these characters, and their lives, and fighting games just happens to be an element at play here. So for what it's worth, all things considered, I'm gonna focus on pushing it ourselves, and trying to capture an audience with this concept. I do have a lot of faith in the project overall, and I WANT to create it. If I can get to a point where I can dedicate my full time into making it, even if it's niche, then I at least have the means to continue to improve my skills. And then, when I've gotten to that level, then I can step into the professional scene among the Japanese creators. I mean, that's how Felipe Smith got on board. And if Whyt Manga can carve a niche for himself with his manga, I think we can too. Get a following, and get to at least some degree of sustainability. From there, I can only grow.

So that's gonna be my focus now. Making Chapter 1 as best as it can be, so people can see why I'm so excited to make this concept.

>>3453974
They really regretted it though. That's why they picked up Promised Neverland

>>3453901
Draw it again but this time for each panel replace the framing for something you haven't seen before.

>>3454057
As much as I agree with the sentiment of only improving by doing I have to wonder how much you've read, your paneling seems really convoluted and often excessive when you're attempting to show slow motion.
Have you read much by Satoshi Mizukami? Kui Ryoko? Look up Curse Blood, Tribal and Merry Grave, reread things like Hunter x Hunter and look at how they use panels. Ignoring all the art and technical things in the documentary Manben theres one common takeaway between nearlly all the authors and its how much they've read and how they talk specifically about their inspirations.
Tsugumomo has some fantastic pages and others that are closer to what I don't like about your pages in that theres an overuse of tone and noise, while Tsugumomo makes up for it with solid draftsmanship and some exceptionally graphic spreads yours doesn't have that yet. Kuutei Dragons does more with its story, setting, and characters with so much less, it also often treats its pages as a whole image and not a collection of panels while your manga seems dense in terms of words and visuals. Even if you say you've read a lot ill recommend reading these stories again and saving pages in an attempt to understand why the work.

So naffy boy and dogboy didn't even get a honorable mention, eh? Weren't people sucking on Nafs dick so much saying that "oh man hes gonna get mentioned for sure hes sooooooo much better than the competition."?

You tried though. I guess that's more than what I have ever done, anyway.

>>3454163
I regularly buy volumes to study them. Lately I've been focusing on Air Gear and OPM, since I wanted to capture the urbanism and style of AG, as well as Murata's dynamism and paneling.

I do like how clean Tsugumomo looks. I've been meaning to read it for quite a while now, so I think I'll get started with that one next. You're right about the tones as well. It's something I still struggle with I'd say, though I have gotten better. But it's really apparent in that Onigiri one for example, the tones are just tossed in there in such an ugly fashion. I think if I start to look at how Yoshicadu does it, by carefully looking at his work, I might be able to pick up a few things.

I'll also check out all those other manga, I've added them to my watch list on Manga Rock. I'm gonna see if I can import some of them as well, or just find them at my local shop. I like having the actual volumes around as I like picking them up and looking at them while I work. Wondering where I could pick up some volumes of Tsugumomo actually.

But yeah, thanks for the tip, I'll stick with it. You're right about the layout and such.

>>3454161
I don't quite follow.

>>3453901
>>3454057

Grain of salt etc but,
I think you need to work on your storytelling at this point. The art imho is fine quality wise, but I just don't. . care? about any of it. The characters are more or less the same we've seen countless times even though the action itself looks pretty good. If you really want to make a SJ comic as opposed to your own comic, characters need something immediately identifiable and/or endearing, I don't even know who the main character is in Tiger Square Alpha. (I do, but you're not beating me over the head with it. The Runner Up has his MC on every friggen page, and he has a unique look to those around him) At least the main character needs to be endearing and identifiable, because it needs to be marketable to the Japanese audience.
The story and sequences for Alpha feels a little hard to follow sometimes aswell.

(Pt1)

>>3454371

Tiger Square World I just have no clue whats going on in the first few pages. If I can only sort of speak English, your images and panelling telling me what's happening are just as important (if not more) than the text. I speak three languages and have little clue what's going on on the first page. A demon is leaving home after 50 years for. . Uh. . His childhood dream of adventure? I joke but what I'm saying is, clean up the panelling and storytelling. Less is more sometimes, y'know?
The character interaction feels a little strange too. It bounces around the place in an unusual way, especially with the
>Monster Chase
>Save cheeky rogue
>Guy has no real personality besides he doesn't like being called "boy" (Remember, kinda beat me over the head with it, at least for the first comic)
>Rogue is a ditz
>Oh no monsters back
>Oh wait it's just . . a regular guy basically?
>Oh but now cheeky ditz is a murderer
>Oh it's okay because demon beat the snot out of her (??)
>Oh wait it was her copy so it's okay now
>I guess they're friends now (??)

Example of oddity in panelling; the big orcs reveal is a tiny part of the page, if you wanted to give its size or strength any presence it should've been massive and daunting, instead it's a tiny non-threat that gets this huge hit from the guy. (Kind of like you did on page 14 with it taking up more space, but it needed *even more* space in the panel, towering over the MC, make it feel threatening ~ It'll make the bait and switch better if we feel it's actually a threat at first)

>>3454379
>>3454371

If others feel this is off the mark, do say so. Just one anons 2c

>>3453740
They specifically asked to see people use their own cultural background integrated into their entries, it's why it was open internationally. It was implied they wanted a bit of variety, but it's true that deep down they probably wanted just Naruto again....BUT THIS TIME IN AMERICA WHOA!

>>3453710
> rising Stars of manga contest.

Haha, I remember that. Wonder what the finalists are up to these days.

>>3453725
I think someone here said they seen some people leave a manga publishing building in tears.

>>3453790
> read from right to left
> OEL manga

>>3454513
Matsumoto's my favorite

>>3453631
I think it's kind of cool that Kishimoto gave them honest critique.

>>3453952
Post your work, snowflake.

>>3454504
The grand prize winner from the very first one 'devils candy' is continuing to work in it full time. I think she's one of the few successful ones. Another one moved into doing concept art for the games industry. I lost track of most of the other winners.

http://www.devilscandycomic.com

>>3454542
Who is the one that moved into concept art for the games industry?

>>3454513
I take this back, the rules said they actually have to be right to left.

>>3454544
I got him confused he's a mechanical engineer now but still works on his art on the side
http://www.darkreaver.com

>>3454584
>last update was in November 2017
>the posts before that are months apart
This is kind of depressing to see. I wonder if I'll still have time for art when I get into a non-art profession

>>3454621
You can just need to give up most other hobbies like gaming (especially gaming) and sleep < 5 hours per day

>>3454621
>>3454584
Did he originally want to do art or was it a side thing for him?

>>3454633
Going by his name and what he's current doing, I'm guessing he's doing the Asian thing with engineering/MD because his parents will disown him if he doesn't, and his love of art and creating worlds is what keeps him keep drawing on the side.

>>3454542
You don't have to win a first prize in a manga contest to post your webcomic on the internet though. So she's a successful example of a webcomic artist, not a successful example of someone getting anything out of these manga contests.

>>3454712
I didn't mean she got success from the contest. Rather she's successful now since the original op wondered what happened to any of them.

Actually Tokyo Pop single handedly killed the western OEL scene when they went bankrupt but didn't relinquish the IPs of the winners who they were making books with. A lot of the winners series were in limbo for years and they didn't get their rights back until years later (if ever).

>>3453631
I wonder how publishing would have gone if any of the English entries had won. Would they have translated it into Japanese for the print run or what?

>>3454730
For the previous big contest they had international voting for finalists and translated all the entries for each region

>>3454504
one of them wrote a manga, bizenghast, and now makes a comic about sentient toys for a company. her art is very hit and miss, but i like it.

>>3454736
Wow, that's kind of fucking amazing.

>>3454730
Honestly I doubt they ever had any serious intentions to serialize any foreign manga. The sheer logistics and extra effort they'd have to put in would just not be worth it.

>>3453901
Your main problem is that you are beginner tier and this shows in the lack of confidence of your lineart. You lack dynamic gesture, good compoistions and (most of all) good understanding of perspective so that you can make more dynamic angles and poses and give depth to your panels.

>>3454797
While not shounen jump, but Black God was done by Korean artist /writer team, so its definitely doable. Although I don't know if it is cost effective on a weekly serialization.

They just additional editors, interpreters and translators, and manuscripts /storyboard can just be sent digitally, rest are just teleconferences.

>>3454818
You kept saying Black God and I was wondering what you were talking about, and then I remembered Kurokami literally means that.

>>3454043
>You might ask, what's the point of SJ asking for foreign entries if they just want stuff that looks Japanese.
They want to snatch the next Posuka. That's it.

>>3453901
Your work looks like that of a westerner trying to do manga. Its just obvious. The way you learned to draw and hoe you approach is completely different, and you didnt do enough studies on what ACTUALLY makes a battle manga look good.
Just look at pic related from your page. His face lacks tonal details, his face features are uneven. And the design just feels like a DBZ OC.

The drawing itself is good and yet at the same time feels lifted from a how to draw manga book. The poses also look stiff and the composition feels lacking, not enough "Dynamism", I dont feel the page jumping at me.

Well drawn manga is something thats easy to recognize but hard to do well, and its completely different from how western comics are done. I can count on one hand the ampunt of artists I saw that really broke through that barrier.

One of the chief things you need to know is that nips cheat alot. Sure, Miura and Murata are gods of art, but most are not them, and they use various tools, filters, guidelines and "construction gimmicks" to facilitate their grander compositions. Dont be ashamed to blend it into your art, but know how to use it and when. You can put a good filtered image into a Bakuman or PunPun panel and it'll look legit, but your will look like an edit. Its because your draftsmanship is not up to par to blend in with them yet.

Work on your use of values and shape language, those are incredibly important in manga, as well as perspective and composition, and of course, lineart.

Most of all, make sure your story passes its message well and does not fsll into a jumble of words or a messy layout. Like other anons said, reference and note down mangakas that inspire you. Murata's style is something thats hard to grasp but his panelling will help, as well as Toriyama, which is masterful at fight choreography.

>>3454909
What? Demizu Posuka is japanese.

>>3453912
One of the main problems I see about your manga is that it doesn't hold together very well as a sequence. The individual panels look quite good, but they don't flow together and it's hard to follow the action from one panel to another.

For example in panel 3 you're focusing on one character and then you switch the focus to another identical character in panel 4.Suddenly flipping the POV of the viewer like that is really disorientating. Also the motion in panel 3 is focusing my attention to the left of the panel, which makes me look at the panel on the opposite page instead of the next panel in the sequence.

I really recommend that you do some studies of how sequences of panels are done in dragonball. Look at how the line of action directs the flow of reading.

>>3455095
A lot of this is really terrible advice, and is just gonna send him on a wild goose chase of trying to capture "muh anime style," rather than focusing on the parts that are actually holding him back, like his inking, panelling, and page composition. Stylistically, it's mostly fine, he just needs to refine and define his style more, but it's not the reason he's not making it, art is one of the decent things about his manga, it's the other parts that are lacking.

It honestly feels like the same kinda "how do you draw anime" shitposts you get around here. As if there was some sort of secret to it, when it's just stylized work most of all, and the range of styles in manga can vary considerably across the board, from Ippo, to Kaiji, to Kenshiro, to Dragonball, to Bleach, to GitS, to Akira, to Lucky Star. Trying to get someone to imitate a specific style is about the stupidest thing you could tell them.

What he needs to do if he wants to capture than manga feel, is learn the panelling and page composition of manga, as the visual storytelling of that medium is totally different from the west, and practically what defines it.

Stupid weeaboos, I swear.

>>3455134
Eh for the most part I agree with this anon. The art could use refining but it's not what's holding you back. Chasing after muh anime style will only confuse things.
Panelling and effective storytelling should be the focus. But I guess that's what different opinions are for.
>>3454371 (me)

>>3455095
I mostly agree with this.
I'd also like to add that it feels extremely inauthentic, like everything is made up of common anime/manga tropes and clichès. It doesn't feel original, and everything from character designs, expressions and fights feel like they're lifted from somewhere else and jumbled together. There's nothing unique, different or personal in there at all.

>>3453631
LMAO the winner is a naruto clone. Just look at every background not even joking it's 100% kishi inspired

These two were also from /ic/ if i remember correctly.
https://medibang.com/book/1a1701112152206690001766144/view/
https://medibang.com/book/i11712311745525730004378258/view/

>>3455288
Yep. So was Dracula's Return. That one was by Naf.

>>3455288
The second one wasn't from anyone in /ic/, an anon just linked it in the original thread because he liked it.

>>3455134
That post didn't tell him to copy a specific mangaka, fuckface, but to learn and analyze what they do.

And like it or not, despite the range, most mangakas DO employ similar tactics and draw their works using tried and true methods. It's exactly that which makes manga so easy to separate from a western comic pretending to be a manga.

The dynamic shots, the distortions, the value range and use of tones, it's all very common and shared though a variety of mangas, as well as the structures of the panel and storytelling. I have NEVER seen a manga tries to tell it's story like that dude's pages did. Too many moments of silence ( I get he was trying to mimic the background intro of a fighter, doesn't translate well), simplified characters on a detailed background not properly blended, wrong choice of brushes.

The issue to me is that the art, by itself, is really good. but it doesn't mesh together in the pages themselves. The better parts of the manga seemed for me to be when it WASN'T just the fighting and you see glimpses of the outside character -- the protag especially blends well into the style.

The complaint isn't on his specific style, but rather the way he expresses it. Manga has a certain look and feel and tools you use, it is separate from your actual "style" and is necessary to understand the enviroment your in. I've seen absolute shit art that could still pass as a manga, because despite the shit art, it presented itself like a manga. This one, it goes from "ok this looks cool" to ok this looks wierd just about every second panel. it's inconsistent.

>>3455546
Oh, then we're on the same page. I thought you were one of those anons who constantly shitpost about "how do you draw anime" or "this is not REAL anime, because it's not made by a Jap." When in terms of style, I think his artstyle is convincingly Japanese.

I agree on everything else though, the toning, the brushes, the heavy strokes, not blending the characters properly into the background. It's inconsistent. I agree, he should pay close attention to how manga artists themselves present their panels, and how they compose their shots. It's not his artstyle persay, but the presentation of his work. I felt the World oneshot had much better presentation in terms of feeling more manga than the eSports one, but the toning was still very jarring in many places, and the paneling still off. It was too cluttered. And like you said, for as many good individual panels that he had, he'd have many inconsisent ones that would just throw it off. That's why I think he should focus on treating pages as an entire work of art, rather than a sequence of individual images.

>>3455603
> That's why I think he should focus on treating pages as an entire work of art, rather than a sequence of individual images.
On that I agree.
A good action page is usually one I can somewhat figure out the action from a quick look, even minified. The use of bold lines and action that shows movement is impeccable.

I like to look at Tashiro's art. AGK isn't a great manga but it has great battle moments, and I think it has alot of interesting compositions that very much fit a shonen manga. I can vividly imagine how it plays out and for me that's a win.

Moreover, I saw that the artist in the submitted manga couldn't hold a consistent proportion, on closer inspection. Not-Goku changes his facial proportions and look every page, from gruffy old man to young shonen, the radical movements in his facial features make him hard to recognize as a character.

I like his Not-Leon, i'll admit, she's very cute, but she also seems to go for radical changes in proportions, to a lesser degree however. I'm not expecting it to be perfect of course, it doesn't has to be. But atleast consistent. I think making character blueprints in the future would go a long way to maintaining consistency. Stuff like how Onigiri has no shading on clothes yet the girl's are very detailed. In general the girls seem better drawn than the males.

To go back to the panelling issue, I notice that both in AGK and many others, their "busiest" pages panel wise are on average still less than Tiger Square's "action" pages. Alot of unecessary panels that simply detract from the action. I think he should not be afraid to break the flow with a great one page piece, those are good for a place to let the eye rest and take in a full image rather than frantically running for the next tiny panel. In general when it comes to the action pages, I would personally use no more than 4 panels at best.

>>3455646
>Not-Leon
Who's Leon?

>>3455288
The second one is cute as fuck and good
the first one is a tryhard le epic fun xd

>>3455653

>>3455674
Oh. Well, I never heard of this character till now. If that's believable. Chalk it up to coincidence I guess. Actual inspiration for Nin-Nin's design was the female Naruga Armor from MH, if anyone remember that old concept sketch from like a year ago.

I will be changing Onigiri's outfit to the green one, as you're right. He does look a lot like Goku with the blue gi. Especially once I got rid of the club, there was less to set him apart then. You're also right about the lack of consistency. It's not that I don't have character sheets, is that I've been changing the artstyle from a more "realistic" one, to a more heavily stylized one, meaning I haven't following the proportions of the character sheets, which leads to the inconsistencies. That's what I was working on today. Before anyone even pointed out the issues with the art, I knew I had to refine my artstyle and my inking. I think having an art style that stands out as more stylized and memorable will help a lot. Stronger shape language and etc... like that anon pointed out. I've also been working on my lines. Pic related is a new sketch for Nin-Nin. Poofier hair, a stronger silhouette, some slight tweaks to the design, etc... How's the linework/toning?

I figured what I needed was a good balance of black and white in the drawings/designs themselves. Screentones look a lot nicer when they have pure black ink and a nice blend of hatching, crosshatching to back it up.

Also, I've been reading Tsugumomo. I'm actually gonna do some manga page studies of both it, and OPM. Just really hone in on replicating some of those pages to internalized certain elements of their style.

>>3455330
I really distinctly remember one of the roughs were posted here, not sure if it's on /ic/ or other boards

>Japanese high schoolers draw like pros11!!11
Wasn’t there a Japanese contest running concurrently with the filthy gaijin one?

>>3455701
Rookie Jump or something.

>>3455688
I'll believe ya on that. Its just amusing how they are similar both in design and personality ( playful sexy type), thou Nin-Nin is more on the immature side. Just something to take note of, inspirstion is fine but having too many derivative designs is a bad sign. Also I really liked that Sentai like dude in your previous work.

Im happy you approached the inconsistencies. A problem I saw with some western "mangas" are that they try to use tropey anime faces to "remind" people its a manga, as if I need a reminder dor some reason, and it crestes very jarring expressions and style changes for no reason. Now exaggerated face but there needs to be a line you say " this is part of how a character can look in this manga and this ISNT". I dont know if im getting the idea across well but look over Onigiri's faces and you'll see what I mean.

Theres ton of cool tricks you can use to convey movement, and that I sae you use aswell, a classic one is what you can see in the page I posted, where Incursio ( white suit) punches the other guy to the air, his fist was completely blurred by the force of impact. This at once both gives clarity AND delivers the power of that fist. To comoare it with your page, where Nin-Nin kicks Onigiri from below, that was a great shot, and you used the same technique, but Onigiri himself doesnt have alot of line deformation showing the force of that attack, and nin nin's feet because abit of a messy form from all the excessive lines.

I love that drawing! I especially like how you shade her clothes, its very pleasing to look at. I feel like something is abit off with the legs, in the thickness of her right and the shading (or lack of) on her left. Also, I thi k you can give her abit of a fiercer look in her eyes (unless you want her to be more nonchalant - a smirk would be nice).

I really think you can make some great stuff. Jump only wants Jump, the competition was never really meant for outsiders to win anyhow.

>>3455288
these are nice

>>3455719
Nin-Nin's a bit of a chaotic neutral in a way. You can't quite figure her out in many ways, and she always kinda does what she wants. The direction in which we'd take her relationship with Onigiri would be, "she's pretending to like him cause she wants to get intel on him, but then actually does wind up liking him, and thus betrays her grandmaster as a result, and that has consequences." A lot of her sillyness/pervyness is kind of a front. But also, she's a kunoichi, so the sexuality kinda goes hand in hand with her character. Idk if that's how that Leon girl kinda is. In terms of character, I kinda told my friend to base her off Suzume from Rance and Haruko from FLCL, so there's definitely a deceptive/mischievous/malicious side to Nin-Nin, though her loyalties would ultimately lie with Onigiri, though it's mostly out of selfishness.

Also, yeah, what's the name of the manga page you posted, the battle scenes looked nice and clean.

And yeah, I see what you mean with the action shot where Nin-Nin kicks Onigiri. I think I'm gonna take a step back from inking the manga pages though, and do some studies, refine some things in my skill/style for a couple weeks, and then go back to working on more pages. I'm defo gonna do some page studies of other manga to capture certain elements of them. Our approach has kinda shifted, we wanna make this really great so it can captivate an audience, so insted of rushing to get things done, we've decided to take a step back, reassess things, and see what are areas that are lacking that we can improve. I think rushing to cram a lot of content in, so it can be a good pitch to a major publisher was what was ultimately hurting the manga. The story, and the manga needs room to breathe, in order for things to work out. So that's our approach now.

Also, I've refined the ink a but more. It was too sloppy. It's just a concept drawing though, to help keep my art consistent. Nothing promotional.

>>3455688
>>3455719
Cont..

On the subject of screentones, im not an expert so I cant pretend to say anything productive but I personally would use stuff like gradients to a minimum. Just doesnt look well in most cases, maybe if textured abit.
Hatching indeed adds a ton, but like the art itself, I feel there needs to be consistency with the effects you use.
Also, this may sound dumb, but I would turn dramatic shading up to 11. Stuff like a darkened face in a peril situation, noticeable detail shift from where a character is conflicted to nonchalant. You did it on several instances and I think it looked great, keep doing that. Dramatic shading can completely change the expression and emotion a character is expressing just from its intensity.

And again, usimg a more radical and simplified value system I think will make readability of the page mich easier on the eyes. Less gradients, more highlight, midtone and darks. This is why Nin nim is so pleasing to look at. Onigiri almost completely lacks darks and only a bit of midtone. His panels often look incomplete.

Murata has unsanely beautiful art but what I would take the most from him is his use of values and panelling.
Replicating a page is good, really trying to take in and deconstruct a page. You really have nothing to lose from trying.

I'd love to hear more of what you have in plan. I wish to some day do my own work and watching guys like you work so hard inspires me, i've been following you since your previous work one year ago but kinda went off grind to work on my own art for a while. Cant wait to see whats next.

>>3455719
Also, there are less derrivative designs down the pipeline. It's just a slow process of refining them, as I also gotta think of movesets and abilities, and how they'd work within the context of a fighting game, so I'm basing them off certain playstyles and common archetypes in those game. The theme with the game is very Wuxia. Kung Fu, Martial Arts, but it's set in Buddhist Hell/Afterlife, so with a lot of demons and stuff. There are also various fighters that specialize in a specific type of Kung Fu. Onigiri for example takes a lot from Tiger Style, ofc. Fenfang, the Aerial Fighter takes a bit from Crane Style, there'll be an Assasssing with Snake Style, who can stretch his arms, a monk with Mantis Style, and so on and so on.

Like, Onigiri is very "Goku" cause Onigiri is the Sol Badguy/Ryu/Ragna of the game basically. The All-Rounder MC. I do think the Green Gi seen here will work a lot better in making him more original

>>3455737
Actually, I agree with you an all your points. I've been coming to a lot of similar conclusions. Heavy blacks and dramatic shading+simple screentones looks really really nice. Especially with good hatching, and it makes the screentoning super easy.

I realized the same thing when I looked at the World Oneshot. All the gradient screentones looked really jarring in that. I agree with what everyone else was saying about it ITT. The toning really hurt the art in that a lot.

It's also why I'm gonna go for the Green Gi with Onigiri as well. The Darker green will be easier to get some heavier blacks in around the shadows and such, and it can look really nice.

I've been realizing that too as I've been analzing manga. A lot of character designs for manga are specifically designed to have a lot of room to allow for heavy blacks so there can be a nice contrast in the pages and panels that helps things pop and stand out. In a way, a manga page has a nice balance between pure white and pure black that makes things pop. That's what I've been noticing.

>>3455736
I see you added hints of dark, thats nice. Important to keep a balance so the values play nice and dont feel "violent" towards one another.
I get what you meant for her character now , the "out there" character who's always somewhere outside the typical chain of thought.

The manga is called Akame Ga Kill. Its an edgy shonen, the writing isnt that great but the action scenes are lit.

If I may interject again, I think having perspective games and dynamic explosive movement will add alot. I have noticed the way Onigiri's movement was drawn is kinda stiff. I am not sure if its on purpose or not, since Nin Nin is pretty nimble, but it was, how to say, hard to look at Onigiri?
Do alot of camera tricks, really imagine the motion as if it were animated and capture it, see it from the lens of a camera and then expand it to make it work in a page. Those always excite me, I imagine the art in a manga as a consolidation of several animated frames.

>>3455746
I definately think the Gi here works alot better for Onigiri, I already like him more here, his Goku Gi made him look like a bit of a doofus.
I dont personally know alot about Chinese aethetics but those are interesting designs. I see less variation in the types of girls thou, you basically have 3 petite girls that give me kond of a similar vibe. I still think its nice thou.

>>3455750
> In a way, a manga page has a nice balance between pure white and pure black that makes things pop.
YES, EXACTLY! This is ESPECIALLY true with battle manga, which rely less on peculiar detail and far more on dynamics and conveyed motion, the detail is often obscured so the values and lines are what pushes the art into the viewers' vision. Its all about the composition.

Its very good you will take a step back and re asses. It can only do you good. I personally believe that drawing is only a small part of making a good image, and analyzing and understanding a composition take a far bigger place.

>>3455750
Yes designing for manga is complete different than noon character design. Which is why often when manga characters get official colors they came sometimes be pretty weird (akame ga kiru is a prime example)

Story telling is likely why none of them won.

>>3453901
A japanese weekly manga magazine is holding a worldwide contest seeking new talent, it must be a bit disappointing for the editors when they see individuals from different cultures brimming with talent end up delivering the same kind of things they already get in Japan.
People are intrigued by other cultures, try to deliver something interesting that a Japanese kid who is buying these magazines wouldn't see every day.
Take a look at the best selling Manga of all time One Piece, it's based off european pirates and the character proportions and designs look like something out of a Popeye cartoon.
My Hero Academia is also a very well selling manga and the whole premise of that centres around spandex wearing western comic book superheroes.

>>3456437
This is abit of a misleading post, it should be clarified Jump still wants Shonen Jump mangas.

At the end of the day its a business with a certain audience. They wont publish something that doesnt fit its audience. What they would really be looking for is a unique spin on the formula - note, ON THE FORMULA.
Jump is in a tough spot right now, with One Piece being long running and hardly gaining new fans, and their biggest money maker Naruto dead and MyHero, while popular, doesnt reach those same heights, Jump is even willing to publish derivative shlock like Black Clover because its desperately searching for a new Naruto. It really needs a strong contender for a leading Jump series or its sales are just gonna keep dropping.

So if you have a great story about the Aztec culture and archaelogical exploration that is mature and thought provoking. Great. Its not gonna get published in Jump, unless you introduce the typical Jump system into it. Because its a weekly magazine and thats how it works.

>>3456442
Basically yeah add a spin to the formula, I'm not telling people to try to get something that reads like it was made by Alan Moore published in Shonen Jump because that wouldn't work.
I meant to say that you should add an interesting premise that deviates from the typical shonen but while still implementing the conventions of the genre and treating it like a serialised battle manga. I guess I was just a bit too vague.

A lot of illustrators don't seem to realize their weakness in storytelling. I guess because everyone can write, so writing shouldn't be hard? Writing isn't hard, storytelling can be difficult.

Art is important. You should strive to be the best you can be at it. And it is an important factor in manga artists getting published because someone has to like your art. But successful manga artists seem to be people who want to tell stories, and manga was the medium they chose. They're storytellers first.

>>3453963
>>3453974
I love this short interview with Hajime Isayama.
https://youtu.be/lDDRtjSq3Fc

>>3456467
this, what's with these quadrillion pages on tiger xyz dudes art, sure it's far from flawless and can be improved, but no matter how much he polishes that art, if the writing stays this forgettable he'll never make it.
I think a really good story alone could have gotten the grand prize even with his current art.

E.g. look at this manga https://medibang.com/book/h61801052202096870004410074/view/
Look at how simple the drawings are, Kishimoto even says something along the lines of "its not showy, but its story is good so I picked this for finalists"

>>3455757
I'll definitely look into changing some angles up some. Also, yeah, Onigiri is a bit stiff in his movements compared to Nin-Nin because it's Chase controlling him, who's basically never played a fighting game in his life, and has just only learned how to do a simple QCF Hadouken-like attack (the Koshouzan), while facing off against Rika who's been playing basically her whole life, and is already really really good at the game. Better than most people in fact.

>>3456448
I mean, that's kinda what we're doing with TS. Taking an established shounen formula, and putting our own spin on it. It's just, instead of copying the Battle manga formula of DB, Naruto, and so on, it's inspired a lot more by Slam Dunk, which is why you have that dynamic in the start with Chase and Rika. It's similar to how Hanamichi got into Basketball because he wanted to get the girl. We're kinda subverting that expectation a bit, which in this case, the girl is actually the first obstacle the MC's gotta overcome, despite being his initial motivating factor as well. The girl is also the vessel through which we explore the more high-tier battles early on while the MC is a total rookie still learning the ropes. So she kinda works like Kakashi a bit too, where Naruto was able to showcase a high-tier battle between two elite Ninja right at the start to really grab people, and set up expectations for things to come, very early on. Rika's first major fight, will help showcase what things will eventually be like once Chase gets really good at the game.

The battles though are more like fantasy battle manga fights, with super powers, and a lot of tactical back and forth. Which is why right in the beginning we establish that the various characters have different abilities with strengths and weaknesses in different match ups.

And then there's the whole stuff with Jin, dealing with gambling, and the mafia, etc... So there's a lot of different elements at play here, that I think mesh very well.

>>3456437
>>3456442
>>3456448
Yup, I think people forget that these manga companies are like genre fiction. For example you have the romance genre. In order for your story to be romance it needs to focus on the relationship between the two characters, and have either a happy ever after ending or a happy for now ending. Without those elements, you have a love story, not a romance. Within romance, there are sub genres that are split up by age demographic (young-adult vs adult), and type (historical, contemporary, sci-fi, etc.)

So if you are a romance writer, you need to mindful that you're writing within the genre limitations, your story is catered towards the right age group, and its meeting the expectations of the people in your sub genre. You can do all this while writing a great and "original" story. Also a lot of authors tend to just do this naturally when they read a lot within their genre.

>>3456474
>https://medibang.com/book/h61801052202096870004410074/view
404

>>3456474
I think we simply cornered ourselves by trying to make a one shot that would shill TS, thinking the originality of the concept would be exciting enough, when honestly, something more character driven would have done a much better job. It's not that my friend can't write. He can outwrite a lot of the pros in the industry imo (both manga and comics). It's just that we picked the wrong kind of story to tell for a one shot.

Basically, the Onigiri one shot had what the eSports one lacked, and vice versa. The eSports one lacked likeable characters, so the motivations kinda fell flat. But it's hard to write the banter necessary to show good character with so little space when you gotta squeeze in the flashbacks for stakes and motivation, while also having a dynamic fight unfold.

Then, the Onigiri on excelled at having very likable characters, but there was no real progression, challenge, or motivation, so the story felt kinda pointless. Problem with that one too, is that we simply didn't have time to make a 54 page one shot, it had to stick to just 24 pages or it wouldn't have been done in time.

Mistakes, but you learn from those mistakes. next time we do a contest, we're gonna put in an entry specifically designed to WIN contests. Something that also works with the strengths of my friend's writing, rather than trying to push him to work outside of his comfort zone, and dumbing his stuff down for manga. We have a back catalogue of ideas for short stories we've been meaning to make for a while now, and he's also got tons of prose written from back in his college days that could be adapted into manga.

Really, the weak part is the visual storytelling, so that will be the focus next. No matter how good the writing is, if it's not conveyed well visually, it falls flat and lacks impact. I'm working with a prose writer, so he's not quite used to the medium of comics yet either. So all in all, this was a good learning experience.

>>3456482
https://medibang.com/book/h61801052202096870004410074/view/
Dunno how that happened, but its the 4th finalist,

>>3456485
I think you are thinking too much about how to tell the story, instead of the story itself

>>3456485
Story is shit, esports is gay AF

>>3456512
unfortunately, this

>>3456485
first of all, esports isn't big in japan at all, its super niche. Neither of them really felt like a shounen, atleast the esports thing had the setup for the genre typical escalation of power and progress. The Onigiri thing I don't even know what that manga is supposed to be about.
Honestly, these aren't mistakes anyone with any sort of genre knowledge about shounen would/should make.
Maybe your friend should read some big shounens and look at the recurring themes.

>>3456522
>eSports aren't big in Japan
Fighting games are born in Japan, and huge there.

>>3456485
>It's just that we picked the wrong kind of story to tell for a one shot.

Honestly, it seems like this is your friends first time writing a manga, so they'll get better with practice. The book Manga in Theory and Practice: The Craft of Creating Manga by Araki Hirohiko, might be a really good read for him and you if you haven't already read it. What he says can apply to many genres, but the focus is on how to write shonen.

I do recommend reading the 1st chapter of some manga you like. The 1st chapter is pretty much a one shot in itself. The opening needs to grab the you, much like what a one-shot needs to do.

>>3456531
yep, they play them casually and in arcades. Esports were only just legalized in japan to begin with. It's nowhere near as popular as it is in korea or china.
Also, the fighting game community, whilst big in japan, is still extremely small compared to the manga community.

>>3456485
> I think we simply cornered ourselves by trying to make a one shot that would shill TS, thinking the originality of the concept would be exciting enough, when honestly, something more character driven would have done a much better job.

It's good you understand that.

You mentioned Slam Dunk. I'll add another Shone jump success, Haikyuu, and Food Wars.
I don't give a flying fuck about Basketball, Volleyball, or Food manga.

Most people who read Slam Dunk, Haikyuu, and Food wars, don't give a fuck either.
So why do they read those mangas and made them wildly successful? It's because telling a story and knowing how to present it is ENTIRELY different from your subject matter. In fact, it is unrelated. The subject matter is only the initial hook, that's not what the readers will stay for. They will stay for the characters they love, the developing plot, the conflicts, the hype moments, the drama. Those are what makes a story, a story.

This is why people can get excited about a fucking Volleyball manga without caring about Volleyball.

I might sound like a weeb now, and fairly so, but Bakuman is a manga with a similar premise to your situation, with an author and artist trying to break it into shonen jump, and they had to deal with the same problem you did. They wrote a great story and had fantastic art, but their editor refused serialization for it because they didn't make a Jump manga, and they didn't captivate the readers with it's complex story. It's written by the guy who did Death Note and he is a Jump veteran, the manga was a piece of his own experiences.
I think your premise and ideas are good but it was not expressed well, and I didn't give a fuck or even realize the nature of the relationship between the characters until you told me. The storytelling was indeed weak, and I regret not talking about it when I focused more on your art. It's true that good story can take you a long way forward even with shit art, have your writer read more mangos.

>>3456532
I've been meaning to buy that book for a while now. And yeah, we read manga frequently. He's not coming from manga, when he was younger he was mostly into more mainstream stuff like DB, and Gundam, and Bebop, and Akira. But over the course of doing this, he's gone and read the beginning of just about every major manga out there. He doesn't find most of it particularly impressive, and he said stuff like Bleach and Naruto bored him to tears. In terms of story structure, he's got no problems crafting and structuring a good story so that it flows well. Go back and read the esports manga, the structure in that is really really strong. It flows super smoothly, and there's a build up and crescendo into a climax, that slowly unfolds itself very cleanly. It just lacked character and that's cause there's a limit to how much you can convey in 54 pages, and when the visual storytelling and paneling are weak, then this diminishes the emotional attachment you could have through visual hooks. Character interactions are also something he excels at. He's very good at writing dialogue, and giving characters their own cadence so that character is communicated through the character actions and words, rather than being TOLD "this character is like this." He's very subtle with his writing, and I think that's one of his major strengths.

The eSports one, could have worked, as the ENDING to a series where you're already invested in the characters. It's a good proof of concept, as that's how we treated it, but not a good stand-alone story. And our mistake was ignoring that fact. So now, we won't be making that mistake again.

>>3456542
>Manga in Theory and Practice: The Craft of Creating Manga by Araki Hirohiko
https://mega.nz/#F!Dd4hnZTC!EjMIcTDPLbWXkAJLPHx2Kg
Earlier anon, here ya go if you'd like.

>>3456538
100% agree with this. Add Beyblade to that list. No one gave a fuck about spinning tops, but Beyblade not only made it cool, it had characters that were great. If you need a good example of character development, sports manga are the way to go.

Going back to art, Beyblade is also a good example of good sequential art. Most of the battles are focused on the beyblades with characters standing behind. So it took a lot of skill to make those battles intense. Damn, I need to go back and read Beyblade.

>>3456535
Fighting games are competitive by nature. Lol. You can't play a fighting game "casually" unless you're playing Smash Bros with items on in a FFA. Fighting games always pit you in a test of skill against someone else. This is why a lot of mainstream gamers don't like them, because they are pure, raw, tests of skill between two people. They are eSports, before eSports were a thing. In fact, the term eSports is kinda gay, it's just the mainstream way of referring to competitive gaming, but that's basically been a thing since Arena Shooters in the 00s, and Fighting games in the Arcades in the 90s.

Ultimately, IF we wanted to make manga ABOUT eSports, we would have gone with a MOBA over a Fighting Game. But I think at this point, TS has come far enough along that I'd be hesitant to call it "an eSports manga" because that makes it sound like it's reliant on that gimmick, when it's not. Fighting games are really more the excuse to have fantasy-like battle manga fights, with realistic characters. Idk if it'll cater to eSports fans, cause it's not even gonna go into eSports culture. Sure, there'll be tournaments, and a pro league, but it's also much more gritty, and deals with urban gangs, and gambling, and the mafia, and street thugs, and so forth. It's its own things all in all. You could easily rewrite the story to be about MMA or Boxing just as well desu. I just like fighting games, and that concept is a bit more novel, than ANOTHER Boxing manga.

>>3456538
Yep, Slam Dunk works cause of the characters. Hanamichi is super likeable despite being a bit obnoxious. That's why I've been saying for the longest time "wait for the actual chapter, it's much better" but the fact that I've been saying that IS the problem with the eSports one. Like, in hindsight, it was really stupid to write a one shot, about the same concept, where the characters that make the concept work, aren't present at all. Kyle and Onimaru were literally throwaway characters written just for that.

>>3456548
Ahh, that's awesome, thanks.

>>3456554
Haha, funny enough. My friend's been rewatching a bit of Bayblade here and there to help inspire him. He keeps saying "I know it's for kids, but honestly, it does a lot of things right that work really well for what we wanna do, we're just doing it more mature.

>>3456565
why more mature? You are still talking about a videogame after all

>>3456435
There's a ton of aspiring script writers who try to make it in Hollywood each year. They study their craft for years and many still don't make it. Then compare it to a contest like this where most of the artists probably just think of the story as an excuse to do cool art they think would appeal to their audience.

>>3456570
Because it's a coming of age story about people finding their purpose and way in life after high school.

The story starts in high school, but only at the end of it, and quickly moves out of it, and starts following the main cast through their lives, into their professional careers. They're a bunch of castaways and underachievers, who find something to do with their lives in this. For the most part.

Also, cause the mafia is involved, because there's a lot of gambling and underground crime taking place. And the Yakuza are present, involved in it, and go around cutting off people's fingers and such. Basically, because there's money involved, there's also crime involved as well. It's basically taken the elements that make boxing work as a sport, and applied it to a fighting games that's basically exploded in popularity across the world.

Like, think of Air Gear (at least the beginning of it), and how Air Trek was so big it literally developed its own urban subculture around it. It's kinda like that. Graffiti, Hiphop, and urban culture are a huge part of the aesthetic and uniqueness of it.

>>3456575
Considering Hollywood has hacks like Ryan Johnson and JJ Abrams working for them, I doubt getting into screenwriting is purely a matter of how good you are.

>>3456562
You definitely have your head in the right place, and your art is in a place where you do not lack the skill, rather the knowledge to know what to do and when, and that in itself is already great because you can just learn those and immediately apply them. Just watch out for the inconsistencies and you're golden. Honestly there's far worse art out there than yours even in its current state so it's not like thats a pitfall anyhow, but it's still important to make the content readable.

It's your writer I would be worried about. He doesn't seem used to writing this kind of stuff. He may think Naruto and Bleach are boring, but Naruto and Bleach were both top rankers in Jump. There's something to be said about what they did.
He needs to get into the "Jump" mindset but still deliver HIS story. That's a balance he'll need to figure out, and I don't really know a better way to do that other than consume alot of that stuff and learn to love it and appreciate what it does. If it's phoned in the readers can tell.
I'm sure you guys can make something good if you keep working at it. The Boku No Hero Academia dude got rejected 3 times with his stories before HeroAca came to be. You'll grow from this.

>>3456583
Most productions is a collaboration between many writers and they have to do compromises. They specialize in different aspects like dialog and character development. A manuscript gets handed around a lot for corrections and many don't even get their name on the final product. Often it's about delivering a concept that matches a production schedule and certain actors.

If you look behind the scenes you'll see that there are a lot of talented people there and a lot of good manuscripts floating around that just lack that last part.

>>3456589
>f it's phoned in the readers can tell.
That's basically it. With the eSports one, he described it as "it was like I was just ticking off a bunch of boxes." He wasn't particularly inspired to write it, and was trying to write it so it would appeal to a specific crowd, and outside of his comfort zone. He just executed what he knew worked, but he wasn't exactly invested in it.

Then, the Onigiri one, he wrote that one in literally a day, and just cut loose with it, and it shows. The characterization is much stronger, the dialogue is very snappy, and it shows a lot more potential overall. It's a way more fun read.

He already understands the appeal of shounen manga. And he loved MHA when I showed it to him. He thinks All Might is an expertly written character, and the heart of the story. What makes it shine. Right off the bat, it clicked with him, BECAUSE of All Might. It's the same with Hajime no Ippo for example, he can't stand the MC, but he can look beyond that, and appreciate the strengths of the series as a sports manga. He loves the way a lot of the fights in that are written.

I think the best thing for him to do is for me to just let him cut loose and do his own thing, rather than trying to get him to write to cater to a specific publisher or crowd. Let his strengths as a writer shine, rather than be put in a box. That's why, what we're gonna do is make TS and push it ourselves, and then make a bunch of different on shots for contests that let his abilities as a writer shine

Honestly, if we'd properly fleshed out that Onigiri one shot, and not done the eSports one, that one probably could have placed considering what wound up winning. I don't think we could have beaten that, considering his paneling and toning is much better than mine, but the story would have hit the right notes much more easily. But well, I am where I am now in terms of skill BECAUSE I had to go through and make what I made to enter the contest. So, next time, it'll be even better

>>3456597
post onigiri one

>>3456598
It's right here >>3453901

The second one. It's still lacking mind you, because it's only like 26 pages. But I personally find it a lot more enjoyable than the eSports one, and that's cause I find the character dynamic to be a lot more fun.

>>3456597
That's fair.

And yes I actually Agree, I did like reading the Onigiri standalone one, with the orc and and stuff. It felt like a more interesting read and Nin Nin was super fun there. It felt like a story wanting to be told rather than one forced to be, so it felt less like a satire of a shonen and a more honest attempt. I definately think he should be writing it from a more natural place.

I also agree with him about All Might. MHA has a fantastic cast of characters but AllMight being the goal and the aspiration from the beginning gives you already a good impression of what it means to be a hero in MHA and it gives you an impression of the world it's set at and what it's like.

To be honest I don't think you guys should even be pushing so hard for Shonen Jump Weekly, I'd focus on the Oneshots and your own stuff, With the Oneshots being an opportunity to branch up and make a name for yourself. Doesn't take alot, people would already be more inclined to read from a westerner who actually won a contest or two (contests that matter) than one who's just another one of the thousands who write mangas every year. Aiming for shonen Jump WILL put you guys in a box, and IF you have won, you'd have editors intervening in the creative process all the time. It's a business, after all. Ya need to learn to work with that.

Also, if your friend is already reading chapters, have him actually read One shots. First chapters are already approved series, look at the one shots originals for stuff submitted for contests. It's an interesting process, for example Naruto and MHA had a completely different attitude towards their characters in their respective One Shots, only the general premise was the same.

Ya guys need to be realistic about your position if you want to apply for competitions, even if you have this amazing saga in your head, write what works for your current needs.

>>3456597
Also hey, you're one of the top 3 on medibang and twice top 6, atleast you're getting attention.

>>3456660
Is this after the results were posted? I had no clue those two were top beforehand.

>>3456662
It's daily so yes? Not sure why, Maybe this thread brought attention to it.

You're number 3 in creator rankings too, so kudos on that. Not sure how many eyes people have on Medibang contests but it's something

>esports manga
how do you even come up with this shit?

>>3456666
Watch too much twitch.

>>3456542
I can't take this level of defence seriously, if you consider 54 pages a limitation then you really don't seem to understand what you or your writer are lacking or you're completely misusing the space as you seem to be aware as you comment on retrofitting the idea.
There are plenty of utterly terrible manga around so its no surprise that most of the more well known stories might come across as underwhelming. To put it in perspective when you enter OPTs on /a/ and still have a great deal of the better more niche stories being unknown and consider that this is a place for autists discussing weeb shit while still gatekeeping somewhat with no spoonfeeding and they're still relatively unknown amongst enthusiasts, compared to them I highly doubt you've explored this medium at all.
To reiterate earlier, spend a week reading shorts by Satoshi Mizukami (https://mangadex.org/manga/19018/ore-no-mangamichi-kari)), a lot of his works are shortstories and they all do more less. Kui Ryoko has a lot of experimental short stories, not that well suited to Jump but in terms of story structure, setting and character they excel and do it with far less dialogue and exposition than you've used. Dowman Sayman is constantly coming up with charming one shots, Nickelodeon in particular is full of little things like Comet Naruna which is 8 fucking pages https://mangadex.org/chapter/15529/1 some of these stories may not be to your tastes but they're far more succinct while also imprinting on you what a character is like, what they value and why. Wanted!! by Oda is also amazing in its brevity.
Just go fucking read them online and if you're still concerned about having them physically do that later, first comes learning.

>>3456666
I don’t understand why people keep acting like this concept is a problem. There are manga about wine tasting, being a NEET, and bathhouse architecture, but competitive video games are a bridge too far?

>>3456690
If you can't tell that post came from a funposting crab, dunno what to tell ya.

>>3456690
They're just trying to fit in. /v/ has an irrational hateboner for competitive gaming, despite claiming to like difficult games. So because eSports are popular, bandwagoners like to jump on the hatewagon to seem hip and edgy.

>>3456690
no one cares about esports in japan / manga industry, it won't sell

>>3456702
No one cared about Wuxia when Dragonball first came out.

>>3453631
Some of that stuff legit looks like it could be in a magazine, I know I can't judge because I haven't seen the pages and layouts themselves but they seemed too strict.

>>3454749
>bizenghast
Oh boy, I read that as a teen and enjoyed the vibe it had actually. Never read past volume 6 though so I wonder what happened. Nowadays it'd probably be 2edgy5me even though I like horror manga.

>>3456707
Are you insane? Wuxia and the legend of Son Goku have been popular in Asia since forever.


Also to the TS crew, better luck next time. Tons of good feedback happened in this thread, and I hope you guys test things out and see what sticks. But especially, with the writer, because stuff like

>>3456485
>It's not that my friend can't write. He can outwrite a lot of the pros in the industry imo (both manga and comics). It's just that we picked the wrong kind of story to tell for a one shot.
>Mistakes, but you learn from those mistakes. next time we do a contest, we're gonna put in an entry specifically designed to WIN contests. Something that also works with the strengths of my friend's writing, rather than trying to push him to work outside of his comfort zone, and dumbing his stuff down for manga.
shows that you guys are pretty protective of the ideas. As a professional writer, I don't think your friend can outwrite dick, to be completely honest. Picking the wrong story for a one-shot is not an acceptable excuse, because you guys would be expected to have weekly releases if you'd get published. The ideal you have of your friend is clouding your objectivity in seeing that as he is now, he probably just isn't ready for this kind of business, and that it's not that his shit is too smart, it's just that it's not as interesting as other works.

I'm not telling you to drop him, but you're doing him no favors by putting him on a pedestal. He fucked up and needs to work harder too. He is not ready and needs to rise up to the challenge too. If he can't do something interesting in 16-20 words that just works, he has to start over.

The writing was also at fault and in my opinion, it was the biggest flaw in your work.

>>3456815
Would you ultimately say that writing prose is very different from writing for screenplays/comics?

My friend says he often struggles to visually convey things he can picture cause he can't draw, and when he tries to think of pages, he's unsure of panel layouts. Which makes it difficult for him.

It'd be good for him as well to read Scott McCloud, Araki's book, and study paneling and layouts as well, yeah?

I've been reading Araki's book, btw, it's very good. A lot of stuff is stuff I already knew, but he ties it back to how it relates to manga. As it kinda has a unique twist to it, it's interesting.

I think it'd be good for my friend to learn how to treat pages a works of compositional artwork, just as much as I am. Especially reading Araki's book. Because the very nature of manga, dictates how things are written from the very core, and the kind of workflow you need to adopt. If my friend struggles with that, then he needs to improve that. He might be very good at writing prose, but writing for manga is different, no? He needs to learn to start thinking more visually, and in terms of panel flow and page layouts, just as much as I am, or perhaps even moreso, if this is what he wants to do. He might be able to think of good stories, and good story structures, but just cause it works in prose, doesn't mean it'll work in manga/comics, because if it's not properly conveyed through the paneling and page layouts, it totally falls flat on its face.

At least that's what I think. But with some confirmation, I can relay this to him, and use this to motivate him to pick up those books and learn some new things. So as a message from one writer to another, what would be your thoughts, and what you'd recommend to him? I'm gonna link him this thread to read.

>Tons of good feedback happened in this thread, and I hope you guys test things out and see what sticks

There definitely was. It's been a load of help, and I really appreciate all the feedback from everyone.

>>3456702
that's a lie, there's actually a manga about Daigo, a competitive street fighter player

>>3457043
Not the dude you're responding to, but personally I think your friend, along side reading the book and immersing himself in the comic/manga style, should start working in names/manuscripts instead of just scripts.

Currently what is happening is that you are playing telephone. He conveys an idea in words and you translate it into a composition, correct? That has alot of room for misinterpretation. Don't get me wrong, it can work, but assuming you guys are working as a team, if you aren't fully synchronized on that stuff in can lead to a disoriented comic.

I think he too should learn how panelling and compositions would work in a manga because he's writing the script, so he knows best how to express his characters and scenarios. He doesn't have to do anything detailed, simple facial features and and positioning alongside speech bubbles should do. There's a way to tell a story and there's a way to tell a story in a manga/comic. Even if his ideas don't necessarily fit your plan, by visualizing it you are both already transferring your ideas to paper and can find a common ground.

>>3457067
>He conveys an idea in words and you translate it into a composition, correct?
Yep, that's exactly it. He writes a script, and I then go over it, and start separating it by hikkigomas, breaking it down into pages, and then thinking up of panel compositions in spreads. He then looks over that, and refines the dialogue, while I start working the art.

>>3457082
then it might be a good idea in the future to try and involve him in the creative process.

Not to say that he is now gonna start taking more of your work, but rather instead of everyone "minding" his business you both come to terms with the creative decisions together rather than just running off to your little corners. I think the more involved he will be in the process of making it a MANGA, the more he's gonna understand how to write stuff FOR A MANGA, because, from what I am getting from you, he is just writing a prose as he usually would, and doesn't really do anything beyond touch ups later.

It will do good to him, imo, to involve himself in the process of actually making it into a comic, so he better understands what is happening to his story telling this way.

In any case, the first step would be having him read Araki's book. Thats one guy everyone should be learning from regarding creative storytelling and page-turning ideas.

>>3457043
As a writer learning to draw because I don't want to burden art people needlessly myself, I agree with >>3457067
, he should learn the basics about visual storytelling if he intends on working with you on this long term. Even if he does the shittiest drawings, understanding pacing will help you both plan things out wonders.

>>3457099
He has been getting more involved in trying to make names to think visually, but he says that's difficult for him, as he's not used to it. So I certainly think that's a skill to improve. It would probably be best if he learned how to panel and make manuscripts properly, I could even teach him some basic drawing skills so he can more easily get his ideas down on paper. Nothing too complex, ultimately it's coming to me, but some simple construction might help him some.

And agreed on Araki. He's one of the greatest ever. And reading his book, it's a goldmine of wisdom.

>>3457115
I totally understand both of you. And no doubt it's difficult on him too. But , you wanna do visual story telling, ya gotta get visual.

He doesn't need to do amazing art, just look at a typical name, it can be anything from a rough draft of a drawing to stickmen.

Ultimately what matters is not that he will make an almost decent drawing, but that he can make a good depiction of what it is he wants to convey. If all he can do is an emoji with an angry face and 1 point perspective, that's already better than a sentence that leads you on a goose chase to get what the character is currently feeling. It's not like you're just gonna copy anything he does and immediately do it AS IS.
It's just a tool to help visualize what your next move is before you commit to a certain layout or composition. It's all fluid, all very open to change.

In a bright pink-glasses future where you get serialized, a manuscript is what you're gonna have to submit to your editor anyhow, so he can approve of something or not. He's not gonna wait for a finished piece, that'll be a massive waste of time and resources.

Who here worked all year to enter this stupid contest?

It really hurt.

>>3457139
creating something in and of itself is a great thing, I planned on joining but procrastinated all the way till the end.

>>3457146
>tfw /ic/ is butthurt over people creating things that aren't what jump is looking for when they actually created something which in itself is a great thing

>>3457139
>>3457146
>>3457150
just gonna put it out there, you guys could make your own magazine with blackjack and hookers

>>3457127
Yep, I fully agree. It's a step forward, and all of this was a good learning experience all in all.

>>3457139
I worked like a madman from October till January like 12 hours a day, every day, and then after that, had to blitz commissions to cover the debts incurred by not working for money for 3 months. And once I got that covered, then I had to focus on beginning to prepare the first couple chapters of the actual manga in hopes of having something to present to Jump should we win.

So, I certainly went through my 5 stages of grief. It is what it is though, you win some, you lose some. Fact of the matter is though, we're just not good enough, but that's a positive thing, it means you have room to grow and learn. All in all, I'd say it was a positive experience. I grew massively in terms of skill in a very short amount of time thanks to that, and my drafting skill and drawing speed increased dramatically. Thanks to that, I don't think there's anything I CAN'T draw (I'm sure I'll still find stuff to struggle with, but there's no longer anything that's beyond my ability to draw I don't feel), as I was forced to confront tons of difficult and unusual things, under a lot of pressure and stress to get it done. I mean, to think that I made the Trump manga just a year and a half ago, and now look at the pages I posted up there^^^

And even there, I look at those and see "no they're not good enough, I can still do better." And I KNOW what I have to improve, and how to improve it, so after I'm done polishing my skills, I'll be even better than I am now.

I mean, just this morning I was looking at my art from less than a year ago, and just thinking, if I were to redraw this, I could do it a lot better, and a lot faster than it first took me. Just noticing all sorts of minor flaws that I made back then, back when I was so proud of how good that was at that time, So it's all part of the process.

So that's how I look at it.

>>3457208
>>3457139
But yeah, this was basically me on Thursday when I found out the results:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Z3lmidmrY

Now I just laugh at how salty I was for not having even been mentioned, and accept that we're just not good enough yet and that's why we lost. It's the best way to look at it imo, as a learning experience to motivate you to do better. Because at least that falls withing your control. Blaming other people, or just getting depressed does you no good, and only creates resentment. But the one thing you can always do, is continue to improve, and imo, if you keep pushing and pushing, you'll eventually make it.

>>3455095
>you didnt do enough studies on what ACTUALLY makes a battle manga look good.
Could you offer some recommendations? I struggle with drawing action scenes in comics.

>>3455330
no the second is from here too, the guy was asking advices

>>3457233
You shouldn't really need recommendations but that point has been hammered already.
Tsugumomo, Tribal, Hitogatana, The Breaker, Nanatsu no Taizai, Sengoku Youko, Hunter x Hunter, the list goes on.

>>3457335
obligatory
>hunter x hunter
it's my favourite shounen though, but those few chapters man, those few chapters.

>>3457335
I do look into manga to understand what makes them good, but I thought there'd be some reference material or literature on getting better at the process and idea behind motion and fight scenes.

>>3457335
Is there anything wrong with being influenced and studying from more modern manga? In manben, all of them like were studying manga of their generation to the point it felt frowned upon to be influenced by different things.

>>3456583
You call Rian and JJ hacks but even professional hacks are more talented than 99% of amateurs. Contrary to popular belief 99% of laymen can't write convincing schlock. That doesn't un-JUST the absolute state of nuStar Wars, but just understand that even Michael Bay is a more talented and experienced creator than literally everyone else on /ic/. Hackery is an art in itself.

>>3456666
Esports shonen is like the most common pitch for a new shonen. It's like a more mainstream accepted version of A Boy Falls In Love With A Girl.

>tfw didnt even know about the contest but even if I did send it in I don't think I would have done well
>tfw too focused on webcomic anyway to make something else
When do they do these? Maybe I'll do something for next year.

>>3457451
post webcomic

>>3457471
https://proverb-comic.tumblr.com/post/171104817427/starthere
I sent it to the Medibang partner program, but never heard back. I've still got a lot of work to do.

>>3457588
>never heard back
I can see why. You probably spend more time drawing comics than me at least, so that's something. Keep working at it while practising your fundies.

>>3457613
As I said, I got a lot of work to do.
Art aside, I'm hoping the story will be memorable.

>>3457622
To be honest, not really, at least story wise.
My first thought was Alex Mercer from prototype, though I'm pretty sure Prototype doesn't have the monopoly on transforming body parts, I guess it was just the first thing my head related it to.
Almost no backgrounds or establishing shots and self narration give me a big sadness. Panelling, speech and the story itself could use work. I had no idea he was in a desert (?) (snowy tundra perhaps?) until later on.
The transition buttons are also just terrible, but I guess that's just personal preference.
The contrast between some frames that are halfway decent and the majority which aren't make me think parts were copied from some inspirational source, traced or otherwise.

>>3457622
To be honest, not really, at least story wise.
My first thought was Alex Mercer from prototype, though I'm pretty sure Prototype doesn't have the monopoly on transforming body parts, I guess it was just the first thing my head related it to.
Almost no backgrounds or establishing shots and self narration give me a big sadness. Panelling, speech and the story itself could use work. I had no idea he was in a snowy tundra until later on, though now I re-read it it does mention snow in the text.
The transition buttons are also just terrible, but I guess that's just personal preference.
The contrast between some frames that are halfway decent and the majority which aren't make me think parts were copied from some inspirational source, traced or otherwise.

>>3457632
I'll be sure to work on improving those aspects of it.
I really appreciate the input, every little bit helps.

>>3457633
Basically take note of what's already been said in this thread about the other guys comic, where he fell flat and what people expect when reading a comic.
I think most here would agree your first goal should be building up some fundamental skills but, if drawing comics is what gets you to practice and you enjoy it then so be it, as long as it's actually practice.
Along with general art reading (loomis.meme), >>3456548 I'd recommend.
I've been reading over it the past couple days and as a general storytelling guideline I found it interesting and insightful. (Manga in Theory and Practice)
Aside from that, as others have said, read and relate to other comics you enjoy. What sets them apart, what elements do they have that you could employ, and how could you make these elements your own? The goal isn't to mindlessly copy, but to deconstruct and understand.

>>3457639
I'm about a hundred pages into Araki's book, it's quite insightful and I'm enjoying it a lot so far.
I'll keep practicing fundamentals and working at it.

>>3457639
>I've been reading over it the past couple days and as a general storytelling guideline I found it interesting and insightful. (Manga in Theory and Practice)
Really? My copy has been collecting dust on my shelf since I bought it last year. The content presented is less about workflow or panel structure and more about how Hirohiko Araki has dealt with crunch-time throughout his career and not much else. It's basically a self-help book for aspiring mangaka (which given this thread, is probably something sorely needed), but I personally didn't get anything out of it other than "stay on da golden way :DDDD"

>>3457663
While it does have a lot of that, and a lot of points common to storytelling in general ( 5 W's, 1 H ), learning through dialogue and action rather than explanation, what is essentially "Intro / Conflict / Climax / Resolution" (Introduction / development / twist / resolution)
His notes on "Going negative" and in depth reasoning behind basically every panel and image as well as his experience with editors I found interesting, as well as his emphasis on building up the entire world around what's happening in the scenes as an interesting approach. Kind of like GM'ing a tabletop game. His notes on character interactions and secondary characters I also thought were noteworthy. Going back to zero I also never really thought about, but once it's said it's one of those obvious things that I didn't really think about. I'm just about finished but I'm sure there's something else in there I got something useful out of.
I guess I just had more basics to learn about storycraft than you did when you read it :|

>>3457673
>I guess I just had more basics to learn about storycraft than you did when you read it :|
tbqh I thought the level of depth he puts into actual character sheets before even drawing them was pretty interesting; like you said, like GM'ing a tabletop game.

But yeah, one could almost be forgiven for thinking there just isn't any "theory" or "practice" to creating manga in the first place after reading it. Araki's concluding remarks even reflect this, where he denied the possibility of there ever being a "definitive" method or starting point in terms of getting into the industry.

You'd probably get more out of rudimentary writing books covering three/five act structures or more simply, do as Araki said, and look to your favorite pop culture for guidance. I actually picked up this book recently and even though it approaches things from a western perspective, it provided intimate details covering both the draft and editing processes, which proved useful for me: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0770436978/

Honestly the way I see it, no matter how competent you are, a western mangaka's only way of making it in Japan would be with a 1 in a million idea manga. Some premise that is so undeniably interesting that publishers would overlook the art and the fact that you are a foreigner.

Just being good, both at drawing and story telling and doing a well made battle manga is never going to be enough, because there are simply too many japanese mangaka who are always at least equally good or better.

>>3457736
I did find it odd about how vague he was about panelling. "More important parts of the story take up more space, it flows in a similar way to how writing prose does with paragraphs and chapters, you just get a feel for it, look at your favorite manga for inspiration." to me is essentially a non-answer for someone looking for specific answers.
I mean, i will look at how others do it either way but, I want a clearer understanding why they do it the way they do. What elements make good paneling for what purpose etc. From what's said in that book, there's basically no set rules as to how you'd want to go about it which I feel is not quite right.

I've been building up to starting a webcomic myself, but am painfully aware of my skill level. I actually used to GM for a few groups and my settings were pretty well recieved, I just want to practice translating those worlds and characters into comic form now.

>>3457404
Not at all. Dont fall for /a/tards trying to force their taste on you. Following current trends is what you should be doin to make something relevant for the modern crowd.

>>3457764
>What elements make good paneling for what purpose etc. From what's said in that book, there's basically no set rules as to how you'd want to go about it which I feel is not quite right.
Scott McCloud goes in depth for all that im both his books, especially the second one.

>>3456435
if story is such a big deal to them why are most shonens not good stories?

>>3457849
They are good stories for what they try to do and for the audience they try to appeal to. You are probably just not good enough of a writer to distance yourself from your own beliefs of what a good story is supposed to be. Likely, you spent too much time in an environment that fosters contrarianism and elitism at all cost, so by default, nothing popular can ever be "good" in your eyes. Same reason how /lit/ would never admit that ASOIAF or Harry Potter are good stories, yet they have captivated millions of people around the world.

I want to make a fun shonen manga, but the way I draw is not very anime-y (not at all). Can someone suggest me some example of weird-looking shonens?

>>3457875
also, what do you consider the most "fun" to read and "escapist" mangas out there?

>>3457875
Just make it a comic then. Why would you need examples of japanese comics that don't look like usual japanese comics?

>>3457893
Yeah, i know, its just that I like the paneling and general action dislayed in mangas

>>3456467
>He uses a Staedtler 925 without the clip like me
oh my god am I gonna make it

>>3457805
Hmm, I'll take a look then, thanks
>>3457849
Personally I rather like a bunch of them, Hunter x Hunter wouldve been amazing if they shaved it down a bit. The recent Boku no Hero Academia I'd say is just indisputably good, even if not to everyones tastes. Enjoyable art and story with variety in characters and villains while sticking to the pretty standard JC formula. I guess for every good comic there's a myriad of trash but, that's true with most things.

>mangas
fucking hell.

Why trying the impossible doing manga instead of just going with western comics? You have way more freedom to do whatever the fuck you want and at least you have some plausible chances of making it. And no, western comics aren't just capeshit.

>>3457976
>Why trying the impossible doing manga instead of just going with western comics?
https://theoutline.com/post/2571/no-one-makes-a-living-on-patreon?zd=1&zi=m3uzuvwj

>>3457977
You don't have to do it on Patreon, you can get published or just work on the drawings and the inking like with manga but at least with an actually reasonable chance to make it. The western comic market is bigger than you expect and contrarily to the manga industry you don't have to win an extremely harsh and demanding competition to get into, you can start from lower levels and slowly climb up.

>>3457976
Because we enjoy the animeme and mango style and storytelling, I guess? Tbh, on top of that I don't really know much beyond webcomics, Marvel and DC westward. Stuff like Saga and TWD comics gained fame I guess but were never popular in my hometown. It always seemed like such a small market if you weren't doing capes. Any tips or suggestions specifically?

>>3457984
I understand that the relative chances are better, but you're still going to be making pennies unless your work is exceptional.

>>3457856
this, people seem to be incapable of understanding that demographics beyond their own exist.

>>3457987
Depends on where you live but as I said, try to find a local community or something and work from the bottom to the top. Start with simple shit like inking or coloring and afterwards maybe work as an artist for a writer. When you feel ready and have some contacts you can work on a personal project too and don't worry, it's full of weebs in the west so you can make pseudomanga like some do.

>>3457993
Yes and no, you can still make it with decent enough art, you don't have to be perfect and at the beginning you don't have to worry about creating a good story by working for a writer, this way you can train you skills without making the big jump. It's still WAY more manageable than expecting to work for the biggest magazine in Japan and compete with their most succesful mangaka as your first project.

>>3457977
This article is stupid as hell considering literally everyone can create a patreon. So obviously the numbers are incredibly skewed with every wannabe artist with 100 followers on tumblr having started a patreon where they make 20$ a month. The people who actually have a proper product, a decent fanbase and an established online presence tend to make very decent money with Patreon.

>>3458010
>you don't have to worry about creating a good story by working for a writer
Have you even ever talked to a comics writer? They are for the most part tasteless retards with an inflated sense of self.

>>3458024
Whait I meant is that you don't have to start out going full balls deep, you can spend some time focusing on you art skills by working under a writer and afterwards work on your personal projects.

Also depends on what you work for, even if you don't like them you can start out working for capeshit or other commercial crap depending on what's popular in your area. You'll also start making a name and maybe meet some nice people in the industry that can help you out.

>>3457976
There are even less successful and quality western comics than there are mangos outside the big two, and tge crowd for decent comics is a shrinking and irrelevant one. Marvel and DC had some of theur worst sales ever in recent years. The comics market is shrinking.

On the other hand, manga sales have been going through the roof in the west and breaking records every year. They are, quite frankly, starting to replace comics.

Not that I disagree about your claim anyhow, mangos is a domestic market and unless you are absurdly popular or talented, an outsider isnt getting in. Thats the reality of things, even decades after anime and manga went global, you can count on one hand successful published mangas made by gaijin.

Imo, a better venture that is more manageable and proven successful across the globe is webcomics. Bigger reach, bigger audience, easier consumption, easier to make, and if you host it privately ( reaaaally easy to do), bigger revenue as well.
Hell, if it becomes popular enough, there's a chance a publisher eill approach you anyhow. Better to market yourself with a proven record and audience, you become a much more lucrative choice then yet another dude with a pitch.

>>3455746
Shoulda gone for shrimp gladiators

>>3458033
I don't quite have that option myself unfortunately.
Currently I'm story-boarding and will get to drawing my first actual comic soon, which will ultimately have to be online, or I'll have to get help translating it to sell at local conventions, which is actually somewhat possible.
I'll have to rely on myself and friends for writing and art, and contacts will be very hard to make for me, though I've already made a couple.
My art is mediocre, but I'm hoping that over time, with a solid commitment and improvement that it will gain a following, however small.
If it fails (which, first comic, so probably) I'll keep trying out new ideas while fixing up what went wrong.
For western comics in general, I wouldn't mind submitting to competitions, and even moving somewhere if it was actually viable, but currently my focus is local to me because I get regular work here.
My end goal art-wise is to produce a comic that is actually publishable, but my regular work (career?) is separate to art, so unless I reach that level it'll only ever be a side thing for me, as much as I might want it to be my job. But hey, you can dream right?

>>3458055
only 10000 iq pros can bring the true potential out of rictor mortis

>>3458055
ONE
SHOT
JOHNNY

>>3458033
This is what happened to me. Gonna have my second graphic novel published by 2019

>>3458076
OSJ LETS GO LETS GO

>>3458055
fucking kek

>>3457335
>Nanatsu no Taizai
I legitimately don't see this one. I can agree with a lot of stuff that got mentioned in the thread, but I tried reading Nanatsu no Taizai and the comedic pacing and deliveries were just bad. I also didn't like the main characters, but that's mostly a matter of personal taste. I'll admit the mangaka does hit a charming little fantasy mood sometimes and draws some cute things.

>>3457856
This. Once again, there is a difference between good writing, and good storytelling. With a good story you can't stop reading. You keep coming week after week to see what happens, or read the whole book in a night. A good story has a hooky premise and characters you attach to. That is harder to do.

>>3457967
Right?

>>3457987
Why are u not doing LINE webtoons? If you actually get picked to be officially featured they'll pay you a livable wage plus enough to cover for assistants. And the royalties can make you rich if you end up being super popular. Quite a few of the original LINE Korean webtoon artists are millionaires and it looks like this have the same contract for the western scene.

>>3458577
Which? There's no way.

>>3458577
actually im pretty sure westerners get an even better deal than koreans because line wants to monopolize the western market, so they're kind of paying even if you only sort of make it. The only thing is I think korea is still a bigger market than the US+Europe.
I mean, look at these fucking contests for comparison. Line webtoon offers fucking 80k whilst the biggest manga dog offers not even 10k.

>>3458581
Why are manga so cheap when they didn't even inherit the same issue the animation industry did?

>>3458585
probably because they enjoy being treated like subhumans, considering the state of japanese workers in general. It's practically part of their culture.

>>3458585
Everyone want to do it and nips are so cucked they don't realize popularity should earn them more money.

>>3458578
https://comicbastards.com/comics/an-interview-with-junkoo-kim-creator-of-line-webtoon
>Starting salary if your webtoon is picked is 2k a month not including royalties
>Some popular webtoon artists earn 80k a month
https://www.newsarama.com/32293-line-webtoon-creators-earning-100k-a-month-from-patreon.html
>Patreon directly integrated and promoted by LINE to help artists earn even more money

>>3458577
That is actually a pretty good idea, thank you.

>>3458602
I've seen really terrible romance toons go to 15k subs in a single month, line is unlike manga, what sells, sells. Even if it's another fucking shitty bl bait or another romance comedy.

Don't feel too bad if you lost guys, you could still get a job at Marvel with a bit of networking

>>3458700
its not even that its her artstyle thats simple, look at her lazy linework, what the fuck??? its super scratchy

>>3458611
>>3458577

I enjoy a lot of webtoons even some of the top romance ones. I find a wide range of webtoons can make it, and I've thought about starting a webtoon. I have seen shitty pencil drawn webtoons get popular because people liked the story. Some of the top webtoons were redrawn and didn't look as good as they do now. So if you want to have a go at it I reccomend you try it.

>>3458700
Outside of a handful of experimental throwaway comics, Marvel has higher quality standards in terms of art than Jump does.

>>3458611
>>3458602
Stop shilling this shitty site. There is not a single popular webcomic out there that uses LINE webtoons.

>>3459126
Well, if all we need to do is name one to prove you wrong, Sarahs Scribbles is on there.

>>3459123
Not exactly, considering Jump has OPM.

>>3459126
I do wonder about this. There's been some dude going around shilling Webtoons on here for about a month now. I'm starting to think it might be an employee trying to get new talent onto their platform.

Personally, I don't like the format, it's too amateurish. There's not much panelling going on in webcomics. If the platform allowed for normal book scrolling like comics/manga, then it'd be worth a shot.

Also, their "contest" is a glorified popularity contest. Something that's actually good, and has good cinematography/panelling/story/art, could very easily lose to some lazy normie trash that just managed to tick the right boxes for people. One of their criteria is "audience interaction" so the people that manage to get more buzz going with their stuff will win over someone pouring their heart and soul into making something good. And witg a grand prize of $80,000 you can bet there's gonna be a fuckton of competition. Webcomics is a field full of lazy amateurs.

>>3459190
The panelling is designed for mobile view (longstrip scroll) so traditional manga layout is unnecessary.

The western entries overall feel a bit amateur ish but I follow a number of the Korean ones.

Also it doesn't really matter if you pour your heart and soul to a webcomic if it doesn't appeal to anyone. You're paid by the number of followers/views you get, not the Eisner awards

>>3459201
That's exactly my point. Something legitemately good can easy lose to ""relatable"" normie trash like Owlturd

Even the creator of that comic complains about how he can't make what he likes cause it's not as popular as his shitty comics.

>so traditional manga layout is unnecessary.
Which exactly why it's amateurish, and a step backwards from the complexity of page layouts in manga. It's practically a storyboard at that point. Zero thought put into the beats and flow and composition of your page. The format itself is too much of a limiting factor compared to what you can do with a book layout.

>>3459167
And yet the first google result you get when you search for it is her tapas link.

>>3459209
thats because she's not even on the frontpage. There's still 400k people subscribing to her though, but she's probably beat by alot of the guys on the frontpage, too bad it hides the stats of those from you.
If you really believe there are no popular webtoons on fucking line you are genuinely autistic.

>>3459222
Can you help me understand something here? These huge subscriber numbers made me kind of suspicious and something doesn't really add up here.

According to Alexa internet traffic stats, webtoons is ranked 1469. For comparison, Tumblr is ranked 58, Deviantart 169 and Artstation 650. Neither of those sites have any artists, let alone webcomic artists, with more than half a million subscribers with the exception of Sakimichan who is at pretty much exactly half a million on DA. How can Webtoons daily traffic be ranked this much lower than those other sites, yet apparently it has MILLIONS more active user accounts to the point where having half a million subscribers won't even get you on the front page? Something seems awfully fishy here.

>>3459283
alexa cant be installed on android, webtoons are mostly viewed mobile.
Those sites you list whilst having a generally bigger userbase, only have partial appeal to webcomic readers.
As for not getting frontpage it's because she doesn't want to, you have to sign an exclusive sort of deal with webtoons if you want to become featured.
Check the comments for any of the topranked entries, you'll see that there's hundreds of pages of comments for each, and you'd think that the backlash would be atleast traceable in the net if webtoons was shady and not paying.
Like, the korean version of webtoons, which is even bigger than the american one has ties to korean cable. Actual (shitty) live action dramas are made based off of webtoons there.
Line isn't a shady business, it's the korean/japanese version of google+whatsapp. It's a multibillion dollar company.

>>3459205
>That's exactly my point. Something legitemately good can easy lose to ""relatable"" normie trash like Owlturd
Thats true of both manga and comics. You're just being whiney because webtoons has bigger appeal.
>Even the creator of that comic complains about how he can't make what he likes cause it's not as popular as his shitty comics.
I bet Toriyama LOOOVES doing Dragon Ball.

>Which exactly why it's amateurish, and a step backwards from the complexity of page layouts in manga. It's practically a storyboard at that point.
Nah, thats just your lack of creativity speaking when you cant figure out the story telling possibilities with a vertical scroll. As expected from a crab.
> Zero thought put into the beats and flow and composition of your page.
Thats a pretty arrogant thing to say of a world you know pretty much nothing about.
> The format itself is too much of a limiting factor compared to what you can do with a book layout.
Again, blame yourself for not having the mental capacity to figure out how to make an an interesting comic in a smaller ppi.

Im not a shill for webcomics btw, I very much prefer mangas, but you are speaking a load of shit probably coming from an amateur crab with alot of hot air in his head. You dismiss an audience of millions with such arrogance, you're a pretty annoying perso .

>>3459184
Thats one guy who's exeptionally talented. They can pay more so they have him. Jump as a total will still publish shit with a less-than stellar artstyle if he got something good goin.

This is the average Marvel art. You wouldnt usually know this because its usually only the meme one offs getting posted but the majority of the "relevant comics" are like this or better.

>>3458585
Nipa who do manga really love it and since they are cucked by Japanese culture they dont dare speak up or risk being excommunicated.

They also dont unionize because, well, they are mostly suburban sheltered manchildren who just love to do what they do all day, even at the expense of their own health. To that extent, they dont know or want to fight against big corps like Shueisha or Kodansha.
And its not like Japan is hurting for aspiring artists, if you are not top 100 you are most likely replaceable. This is the clever system the publishing companies built around the business, they lavish and treat high earners like kings and form bonds with them so they wont "betray" their respective agency and wont defect to help unionize with smaller authors. They give you the illusion of creative control and enforce the mentality that " if you dont like it, leave but dont think you can come back to this industry".

The industry is being very secretive over contracts and stuff like treatment, only occasionally you have "leaks" or testimonies to the system and salaries and even less of those pass the language barrier.

The estimated earning of a junior mangaka is usually between 25-35k$ a year. Thats >30% less than the average wage in Japan and less about about a 3rd of that in the US.
Can you live from it? Yes, frugally. Will it make you rich or help you be financially stable? Lol no.

Ideally this would change with the globalization of manga, but as we have already seen with anime, the crowd and profits are bigger than ever but workers are still as fucked because no one dares fucking speak up. And desu studios still dont earn more because broadcasting companies gouge them. This is why I very much hope for snime to move to an online only format and ditch the traditional channels, its a suffocating industry.

>>3459527
>The estimated earning of a junior mangaka is usually between 25-35k$ a year. Thats >30% less than the average wage in Japan and less about about a 3rd of that in the US.
>Can you live from it? Yes, frugally. Will it make you rich or help you be financially stable? Lol no.

I found this image digging around on-line. I don't know how recent or accurate it is, and I'm not trying to live in Japan's economy, but ... damn!

>>3459780
Sounds about right, I guess. Animators are getting payed almost literal slave labour, which would be okay if they would be from 3rd world countries I guess, but most animators for anime are either Japanese or Korean, and that is not at all any decent amount to make money from.

Sounds right for the VA talent aswell, it's one of the most lucrative industries in Japan, it's also very cutthroat. The quality usually speaks for itself though.

I every so often consider seriously pursuing anmiation -- then I remember I can make nearly 80k$ a year like *that* if I just go back working at IT, or about 60$ if I keep my current web design gig, and as an animator getting that would mean I'd have to be EXTREMELY talented and privileged, and will probably kill me for many years before I actually get recognition and severely shorten my lifespan.

So I'll just keep this as a hobby I guess.

>>3459780
in general yeah, but that is just broader way to display pay rates rather telling the the actual labor and production cost worth. Being an A list or main cast voice actor isn't just voicing an anime. Especially female cast, they technically idol part-time included in the contract. They have to go to conferences, advertising their anime on Radio show, participating in shows and all those activities that require them to shill their anime. Not saying that Animator shouldn't feel bad about their terrible wages, just saying that things are far from reality as you think it is. Working with the animation industry as whole is a rigorous career no matter the role.

>>3459527
>Ideally this would change with the globalization of manga
Considering how many spics, flips and jungle chinks try their hand at this, it will indeed change, but for worse. $25k a year would be very good money for me and I'm not even from a third world country.

>>3459527
>cucked
I don't know if I trust a word out of this post.

>>3459780
Though to note, it really doesn't take much to get by living here. Living in a sharehouse or small apartment is about 50-70k yen a month (bills included), food, drinks, beer and snacks at like 50k a month, transport is cheap and convenient in big cities, leaving you with plenty of money for other stuff. Sure you're not gonna get rich, but you're not starving or devoid of savings at 30k usd a year. That's like 270k yen a month. That's fine while you build your portfolio.

>>3460481
You live in Japan?

What part?

>>3460494
Tokyo

>>3460494
Tokyo, but I've been around.

>>3460481
Is this talking as an animator? Or are you some other type of artist? Are all artist jobs paid poorly?

>>3460726
He gave the statistic of 25-35k USD a year for artists, I responded essentially with "That's actually pretty comfortable living in Japan." To my knowledge art in general is paid poorly, unless you're a somebody.

Primarily my income is teaching English because it's easy money, especially for contractors, and I do art in my spare time. I hope to build up to where I can get a comic actually published, but for now I'm working on a webcomic and occasionally chat to the couple of local artists I know. My Wapanese is only really fit for simple daily life. I thought I might go and table somewhere to sell comics at an event like Comiket, but I'd need to drag along a friend and have them be the middleman, which doesn't sound appealing.

>>3453901
The pages are busy. when doing these panels, lean back or zoom out a bit to see if you can still tell what's going on.
The facial expressions and shading are so generic, it's as though you're going through a check list.
perhaps make the style of the game differ from the reality.
and if you look at the fgc, you can usually find a turbo autist near the top alongside the cocky ass hole. M2k vs Mang0 for example.

>>3460494
should I become an ALT y/n

>>3459190
>I'm starting to think it might be an employee trying to get new talent onto their platform.

Why the fuck would anyone in their right mind want people from HERE?

>>3459780
>guys who do most of the work live in misery.
Sounds about right

>>3457875
>>3457897
>>3457893
Read Mob Psycho 100 or anything else by ONE.

>>3462006
Dude that one is hugly as hell, dont listen to him

>>3459780
What does "college student" and "part timer" even mean in this context? What job could an untrainend college student possibly do within an animation company that is paid better than an actual animator at said company?

>>3462022
that's the point he's trying to make

>>3461801
What's that?

>>3453631
How often do they even hold contests like this?

>>3462052
The college student was doing some type of internship work like research and development. The part timer was a waitress and a model.

>>3462749
Jump's? Annually. There's other contests round the year but they are not as "lucrative". Thats really it.

Imo making an entire comic just to have asliver of a chance against Jump's up-an-comin is a fool's errand. If you already went through that effort, juat try to self publish or come through a western publisher. No need to stick to Jump because its the weeb dream.

>>3463211
also, talking about most "lucratives" while not doing your best to publish your work after your obvious rejection is stupid.

>>3459514
Are you seriously posting that as an example of good art?

>Kishimoto as the primary judge
The fuck is this, this is the same guy who shoved in an alien god at the end of Naruto, why would anyone take him seriously?

>Ifw you realize that we are the huge art diaper of shitty dudes overloading the medium and making it a lot harder for the actual talents to make it in the business.
We are the reason why visibility is such an important thing for an author today.

>>3467304
This

>>3467304
What?

>>3467120
You really think you guys deserved a MORE qualified judge than the creator of one of the most iconic and popular shounen battle manga in history?