/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

because /ic/ likes to latch on to absurdity

people should form an opinion of their own instead of literally falling for a joke

>>2875503
More of a joke than a meme. He just never tried drawing from imagination that often, he said he "waited 10 years to do it". Don't worry though he's really talented.

Mostly because of this toxic meme.

Learning fundamentals applies to all kinds of careers and styles.

But there is a pervasive belief in art communities that drawing from imagination or stylizing is a crime, and you're not allowed to do it until you have 5 years of life drawing under your belt. This is crowd touts people like PROKO or LOOMIS as the all-end to all art troubles.

You become good at what you repeat.

And drawing 1000 gestures will not suddenly make you a master at animation.

It will help, but if you want to get good at animation you absolutely need to animate before anything else.

>>2875503
Nobody hates Proko. We just takin the piss outa our boy for a bit cause of his silly roo drawing. Friendly ribbing. He can handle it, he's a big boy. (4 u)

>>2875550
Not necessarily true. I mean yeah you will eventually need to animate but doing fundamental studies(not just gesture drawing) will probably get you 80% there. If I spend 5 years doing gestures, learning all of my necessary anatomy, learning the muscles of the face to do expression studies, practice turning poses from different angles, practicing color theory, practicing light and shadow, doing compositional studies, these essentially are the drawing fundamentals of animating. If I can get really good at these then animation will be a lot easier to do.

A while back I was following an artist who did tons of figure drawing basically was good at fundies and even his first animations looked really good and then rest was just polishing. If you can break something down into it's sub components and simply study that for a specific period of time before tackling everything at once, then it's not time wasted.

I've seen people who do nothing but animations for years and still make little improvement. The important thing is that you need to know what you need to know. If I know my anatomy sucks, i don't need to animate 100 hours to figure it out.

>>2875648
It's better to not worry about dumb fundamentals and just animate while learning as your go for what you need. You guys make it too mechanical.

>>2875550

Your image has nothing to do with drawing from reference. The right image is from Scott Robertson's book called "How to Draw: drawing and sketching objects and environments from your imagination".

If you want to be able to draw anything accurately from imagine you have to learn perspective, proportion etc basically the fundamentals.

You don't have to stop drawing from imagination at any point in your training.

In fact the optimal to learn incorporates it similar to : Learn new method from a master and recreate his example -> using reference, apply the method you learned -> using your imagination, apply the new method you have learned.

The problem with drawing from imagination is that you have to use the reference library in your brain. If you don't have a photographic memory then that means studying the world around you by drawing everything.

Draw from reference -> build internal reference library -> more reference to use from imagination -> learn new method from master -> more reference study but now more accurate and effective -> stronger internal reference -> better drawings from imagination.

If you never study using references and you never learn effective methods from masters, you will be extremely limited in your imaginative drawings.

Proko sucks at drawing from imagination because he didn't spend time practicing it. He learned to render references. Most tumblr artists suck at imagination because they ignore reference study and have no idea how to study new references and lack effective methods. They can only do copies of other peoples styles and draw basic 2d shapes.

>>2875650

>It's better to not worry about dumb fundamentals

Wrong. Fundamentals are the KEY.

>>2875807
NGMI

>>2875810

>14 hours a day drawing
>Went from zero knowledge in construction to being able to construct insects and vehicles in Perspective
>In two weeks

Now on weekends, I can allow myself to chill and shitpost. Tomorrow I'll be going Robot mode again. Can you say the same?

>>2875650
>It's better to not worry about dumb fundamentals

>>2875815
Post your work.

>>2875815
>he thinks construction is impressive
Can you even create a finished piece?
Didn't think so.

>>2875822

K. I'll be working on a Jumper Spider and a Praying Mantis next. Now post your construction work.

>>2875826

I will, once I finish mastering construction and move on to other subjects. Why don't you post your work?

>>2875829
That looks like shit.

Did you even use a reference?

>>2875833

No, I sketched a couple tanks and then move in to plot the grid and draw basic shapes that would minic a tank. No copying allowed. Might look like shit, but taking into account I've only been two weeks learning construction techniques, I'll say it's really good progress.

Where's your work, though?

>>2875831
>he thinks he can master construction

>>2875841

You can bet your lazy ass I am going to try.

>>2875839
Looks like you aren't even thinking about the perspective and volume of the things you draw.

>>2875887

Yeah, the ant was the first attempt and construction drawing and there was a lot of guessing involved, I tried working on that for the next ones I did including the tank.

But well, still a long way to go.

>>2875503
as someone as clueless as you but who sees proko hate everywhere...Probably mob mentality. He became a meme, it became a meme to hate him, and people exposed to him through 4chan and not his own channel will probably fall for the mob mentality of hating him.

Plus studies prove repeating something enough makes you start to believe in it, so even if it was a joke to hate him at first a lot of people now genuinely hate him and probably can't name anything really worthy of hate.

Plus /ic/ is a bunch of motivationless turds who could possibly make their own decently successful channel and such if they weren't so obsessed with ONLY loomis or scratching their balls.

>>2875829
>>2875839
Where are you following this exercises from? Are they from DrawABox or are you one of those people throwing $50k into Feng Zhu's artist concentration camp?

>>2875897
I don't hate him I think he's really good at life drawing & at teaching. I've paid for every single premium course and I'll probably pay for all his future courses too.

That said, his fuckin' roo is hilarious and even he made a comment on his YouTube video saying "name the roo" so he knows about the joke... it's just a joke.

>>2875953

I am neither a Draw-a-boxer cult follower nor am I so rich to have the honor to attend Feng Su's chamber of time. I am reading Scott Robertson's book and grinding the techniques, at the same time I am analyzing the type of homework the students of the concentration camp you named looks like and using that information to plan out my exercises. I am at the same time, using a couple of Michael Hampton's techniques from his figure drawing seminar such as the ''wrapping lines'' to have an easier time feeling forms in space.

I haven't found a book or seminar that showcases these type of construction exercises or how to do them step by step, so I just went raw on them until they ''started'' to make sense, and I am still fighting my way through it. Pic related is the fag I am doing right now. No reference, no copying. All from imagination (which is why it looks like fucking shit).


I'll gladly respond to any questions you have, maybe I can point you in the right direction somehow.

>>2876062
I'm not the anon who you were talking to before but, is that a nostril? Insects smell with their antennae.
I know you're trying to improve at imagination/construction, but I think it would be a good idea to study your subjects after you're finished your exercises and compare what you drew.

>>2876074

>I'm not the anon who you were talking to before but, is that a nostril?

I don't think it is, but I agree with your advice. I studied the wiki on Spiders, particularly Jumping Spiders the other day and they are truly fascinating, even learned the name of all the parts, including the different parts of the leg. I haven't done that for the Mantis though, mhm.

>>2876062
Yes where did you find practice homework from FZD school? If you're able to analyze their homework and reverse-engineer the process that seems like a viable route to study.

BTW keep up whatever you're doing cause I think it's working. I'm about to start Erik Olson's perspective course I think that'll help me move into the type of practice you're doing

>>2876062
Another anon here, so what else besides scott robertson's do you recommend? and how long have you been drawing till you drew that mantis?

>>2876083

>Yes where did you find practice homework from FZD school?

I typed on Google images ''FZD school Homework''. From there I saw a couple deviantart and blog from people who attended the school and posted work, not an overwhelming amount of info but some gave pretty interesting stuff.

For example, pic related is from the two first weeks of FZD. You can see in there that they start construction with very simple exercises that make you transfer simple shapes in ortographic view into Perspective, so I began doing that too. If you listen to Feng Zhu's podcast, you'll hear him claim that all the teaches in term one is pretty much what Scott Robertson's book teaches. so I started learning the techniques from his book.

After that, I found out what the TERM 1 final projects look like. Which I will post in a pic in a following post. But you can find them online if you type ''DRAW THROUGH FZD''. So I tried my best to figure out how the process works.

>BTW keep up whatever you're doing cause I think it's working

Thanks friend, I'll try.

>I'm about to start Erik Olson's perspective course I think that'll help me move into the type of practice you're doing

I wish I could go through his seminars too. I only went through Vandruff's and Scott Robertson because my internet data cap is limited so I can't download 50GB. (I am limited to 50gb per month lmao).


>>2876085

Depends on your level, if you're completely new I recommend making sure you develop observational skills till you're not symbol drawing anymore. Past that, just dive in straight into Perspective. I recommend Vandruff's Perspective DVD, because that's what I did. Another very useful thing, at least for me, was to watch the first week of Michael Hampton's Figure Drawing seminar, and reading the first 2 chapters of his book, then doing like 400 gesture drawings. It's helping me having an easier time ''feeling'' mass in space. I'll see if I can post a pic to give you an idea.

>>2876085

Pic related is what I meant with gesture drawings, I did them till pretty much all the ones I saw/copy and the ones I drew from imagination captured the movement I wanted to show, I am still working on improving that too but doing them really helps feeling masses in 3D space.

>>and how long have you been drawing till you drew that mantis?

Hard to say accurately, I began drawing back on 2012 with ''Drawing from the right side of the brain'' but after a couple months of doing shitty looking scribbles I pretty much gave up for years and didn't touch a pen again. until 3 months ago. I've been pulling at least 5 to 6 hours a day the past two months, and up to 15 hours a day this last two weeks. Hard to say friend.


Whatever you do, don't give up like I did.

>>2876083
>>2876094

I know that after the simpler exercises I posted earlier, they are later made to do draw through exercises with more complex shapes like insects, and I know what the final project looks like. Pic related is an example of one, according to the blog where I got it from, it takes like 20 or 30 hours to do.

>>2876094
>>2876104

Here's the insect draw through homework I was talking about.

>>2876104
>>2876107
Jesus fuck they learn to do that in only a few months? Alright I guess.

Why are there so many perpendicular lines do you know?

I understand the horizontal lines because those define perspective as the object takes up space on flat ground. But why draw so many vertical up-and-down lines? How do those help perspective?

>>2876208
Not that Anon, but have you read the horror stories about FZD? Only the gifted people are shown off and the people who aren't up to snuff are forgotten about.

>>2876208

The vertical lines help both define the height of the subject, know where the middle of your subject is and also allows you to use the ''duplication technique'' to find where the leg of a insect (or literally anything else) would be at, as it recedes further into perspective. To give you an example, you can look at pic related to see how I found where the wing would be in space by using the redline, by cutting straight through the middle.

Anything that's not clear will make sense to you once you go through the first 6 chapters of Scott's book.

>>2876229

Well, to be fair the website does a good job at warning you about what to expect. They clearly say you can expect to work 16 hours a day on homework. Where can I find these stories? I would be interesting to read about them

>>2876208

Yeah, it's insane how much work they do but it also shows you how anyone can git gud fast, it's a matter of working robot mode and focusing on the fundamentals, the tough shit no one wants to do because it's too boring and tedious.

>>2876240
Search the archives. There's been multiple threads on it. There's a lot of dirt on the program/Feng that goes way beyond treating some students like shit and starts getting into illegal territory.

>>2875503
how is he so perky and happy? how is he not a miserable, tortured cut-your-ear-off artist like the rest of us?

>>2876274
Because he doesn't seclude himself to a corner thinking about plebs memes and ironic jokes.

>>2876274
Because he spends more time actually getting gud

>>2876274
He seems to have a some what stable lifestyle and just enjoying life now

>>2876376
What does Proko even really do for an income? I have no idea how much he makes and what kind of life that could mean. Is he even white? I don't know.

>>2876381

He teaches.

>>2875829
but it looks like shit anon.
It appears that you learned a small amount of Perspective- kuddos!
But then everything else if really off. Including the top. And your lines could be much better.

>>2876431

Still the only person who has posted their work.

>>2876431
We can all be much better. There's always room for improvement. But for just a months' time he's seen a lot of improvement

>>2876102
Don't ignore real life figures either

>>2876376
so he was a tortured, angry starving artist manlet before?

i guess there's hope for us

>>2876549
Actually he came from Russia or Belarus or something... he was studying at ateliers since he was 16... so no, he's kinda always been good.

>>2876701
>tfw the talent meme is real and poor shitty people will never make it

We don't hate him
We just found the Kangaroo meme funny

>>2876767

This. The only thing that people dislike about him are his lame jokes. It's kind of hard to hate someone giving away atelier knowledge for free on the internet.

>>2876701
if he's russian why isn't he depressed
all russians are sad, even when they're happy.

that said, how old is he now

So many Scroto shills
kys

>>2876274
He's probably not all chipper all the time like when you see him on camera, and a lot more mellow in average daily life. Also who would be miserable around a cute dog like that

>>2875550
That imagination drawing stream is a fucking funny thing for me. He made it so you couldn't access it normally, but if you kept the link the vod was just there the whole time before he officially released it.
Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZsZzSryLB4&feature=em-lss

>>2876858

Scroto?

>>2875829
>>2875839
Holy shit, Dunning Kruger in the fucking flesh. Are you the guy who's been going around ranting about how perspective is the most importantest skill ever in drawing ever? It looks like you haven't taken your own advice.

>>2877089

I know they are not perfect and I can see the issues with both (like the off set ellipses that make the tank's wheels), these are not finished pieces but rather, exercises to learn and apply concepts I am still studying. If you read the thread from the beginning and see the context, you'll understand why I posted those.


I have been taking my own advice, a lot. But of course, that doesn't mean I am going to git gud in a couple weeks, there's still a lot to learn and apply. If I have kept insisting how important perspective is, is because there's a bunch of people in /ic/ who are too lazy to bother grinding important concepts and will do their best to both convince themselves and others (specially newcomers) that there's no need to worry about fundamentals at all, despite how much one is able to improve in little time if one seriously focuses on them. None of these people have bothered to show off their work either, which I believe is very telling.

>>2877099
Keep it up anon
I like your dedication
It reminds me of when I was younger and believed I could conquer the world
Nowadays I'm just a broken man who's basically a corpse walking around
Achieve proficiency and fill me up with some of your youthful energy
I want to remember how it used to be

>>2877101

I will Grandpa, gonna give you a reason to forget about your sorrow and be motivated to put in the hours grinding. You just wait.

We are all gonna make it.

>>2875839
>>2875829
Anons calling this shit are just doing it because of the insecurity in their own work.
It would be shit if you were drawing for a couple months, but for two weeks it's quite impressive.

>>2877089
Are you saying it isn't?
Drawing is basically creating an illusion of form and all forms exist in 3D space. Without perspective, you can't draw anything realistic.

>>2876267
Interesting point. Watch the movie "Whiplash" and you'll understand why Feng does what he does.

The west is poisoned by postmodernists who think you don't have to work hard to be a good artist. FZD, the Russian Academy, Los Angeles, Toronto, Singapore and a couple other last bastions do their best to protect the knowledge passed on by the old masters.
It might sound silly, but in a way /ic/ too belongs on that list.

>>2876237
Thank you for sharing your findings, anon.

I'm so going to try applying this fzd challenge myself.

>>2877418

>Thank you for sharing your findings, anon.

No problem friend, I'm glad I could help. Good luck with the challenge, post your stuff on /beg/ I frequent it and It would be nice to see your progress.

>>2877418
>It might sound silly, but in a way /ic/ too belongs on that list.
So /ic/ was right all along

>>2877418
>Watch the movie "Whiplash" and you'll understand why Feng does what he does
Oh great, another retard who missed the point of the movie and thinks that it's an example of good teaching.

>>2877658
The point of the film was to show how much hard work and sacrifice goes into art and to dismiss the 'talent' meme.

maybe Proko has no imagination to begin with?
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-34039054

>>2875503
>Proko
more like Scroto

>>2876094
different anon here, do you have more photos of the hw assignments? I googled with little success.

>>2877847
"Meme"

>>2876062
You have different convergence relationships all over the place. These are all features that relate on the mantis horizontally and need to go to a common vanishing point. Your horizon line(i.e. eye line) is currently not working for the above reason as well.

You seem like a smart guy, so you should stop making this beginner mistake as soon as possible, as it's crucial for developing intuition for where the horizon line is (you aren't placing it correctly at all). At this stage in your development, if you want to grind perspective, make everything exactly symmetrical. That is how it's done in those FZD drawings after all. Everything, including points of origin, where forms end; don't miss anything. Antennae symmetrical as well.

>>2878821
why are you forcing this shit meme? it's not funny or creative 1/10

>>2875839
>>2875829
Anons calling your work shit are doing so because they have a personal grudge because of your smug post. These are pretty solid for a start.

D-dare i say it?

>>2880858
not the same guy, but where did you get this info on symmetry? Is this in the scott books or in fzd videos? If not could you share where you got this info?

>>2880794

What did you type? If you looking ''FZD homework'' in google images you'll see a ton of stuff. Anyhow I recently watched a couple videos from FZD that pretty much explains what you should be focusing to git gud really fast

>Construction of objects in 3D space (like the insects exercises you've already seen
>Doing basic exercises like rendering simple forms, including the cast shadow
>Sketching everything, to increase your visual library as much as possible
>Analyzing and studying anatomy

You can watch the video here, there's 9 parts and this is the first one. They are all worth a watch, imo.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrbfOpIP_UY

>>2880858

Thanks a lot for your advice, Anon. I really appreciate it. Kinda silly I didn't think of that, I'll try to implement it now and grind it till I can't get it wrong anymore.

>>2880915

Thanks Anon, I had to be smug so that other Anons are not led away from grinding fundamentals by other smug posters.

>>2880948
you can learn all of this and more from the 400+ year old science of perspective

pick a book

>>2880950
okay which book, I read perspective made easy and I am on how to draw from imagination. No where do I see symmetry or finding perspective on organic shapes like the manits eye that was shown. I will go back and read but it would help if you shared the specific resources you studied.

>>2880949
thank you I really appreciate it, I am trying to give myself assignments as well to do through the entire day.

>>2880955
https://archive.org/details/freehandperspect00nortrich

https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/perspect1.html

there's literally limitless resources, you have google for pete's sake. anyway those two are quite good, especially the latter

>>2880958

No problem friend, we are both on the same path.

>>2880961
thank you I did use google but unfortunately I lack the common sense too articulate what I actually need to search for because I am fucking dumb. not going to argue because you are right I will fix that shit.

>>2875829
>>2875839
For someone drawing for only 2 weeks, you're doing damn fine. Keep up.

>>2880948
It is an assumption we make when we utilize perspective in order to use it effectively. There's no such thing as symmetrical animals in nature, but when we learn perspective we make it so.

Consider this. A vanishing point is where multiple PARALLEL lines go to. If we draw an insect and shoot different pairs of features on the insect to that vanishing point we are implying horizontal symmetry, because only features that relate from one side of a creature to the otherside creature on perfect horizontal lines are parallel in the first place.