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66401389 No.66401389 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe] [rbt]

Whats this talk with JS becoming the universal language? Is it because of Electron and shit like that?

>> No.66401501


>> No.66401620

Node js, react, electron

You have desktop, front end and backend covered. What's not to like?

>> No.66401701

In the past c was the lingua franca. Now it's js for most people and Haskell for functional.

>> No.66401727

JS is shit and allows horrible code, pls no

>> No.66401728

Is it over? Has Onions.js really won?

>> No.66401747

Why would anyone want to use JavaScript on the backend? Is it not enough, that we kinda have to use it on the frontend? Personally I always cheat my way around it and find a solution that produces JS for me and certainly not the other way around. This is in no way optimal, but I would rather kill myself than write more than 10 lines of code in JS (or even TypeScript for that matter)

>> No.66401918

>implying you can write 10 lines of js
Prove it

>> No.66401926

Why? I was thinking about picking it up during summer as a fun side project, what problem do you have with it?

>> No.66402188

v8 is quite fast, it's somewhat easy to develop in (GC, pseudo-OOP) and can run everywhere where the browser is (and more)
will potentially get even faster and will have more control with wasm
modern GUI tools are made for web thus JS
specification-oriented development

>> No.66402273

Can someone explain what's their issue with JS?
Other than being dynamically typed, I have never heard a legit complaint about it.

>> No.66402446
File: 48 KB, 533x434, Screenshot from 2018-06-01 21-37-14.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

some behavior of JS in very unintuitive
also single number type

>> No.66402882

Bloated websites, pretty much the only complaint I have

>> No.66402940

the cheapest niggers know js this is why it's universal like the pidgin language english which is also spoken by every nigger regardless of iq

>> No.66402977

The language itself.

>> No.66403156


> You have desktop, front end and backend covered

With the worst possible quality for sure

>> No.66403248

use const and let

>> No.66403341

My biggest issue with JS is that it's too easy to produce crappy code. Even by accident. Forgetting var or type conversion won't usually raise errors but can lead into bugs. It also comes with some weird as fuck features like >>66402446
In my opinion a good programming language should prevent programmers from doing completely retarded shit like referencing variables before definition.

>> No.66403490

oh ok so that means clojure(script) is already the universal language.

>> No.66403542

>Whats this talk with JS becoming the universal language? Is it because of Electron and shit like that?
No it wont, Dart will. Dart has optional static typing. It can run very fast as a standalone interpreter and so do general purpose scripting. It has C style syntax that combines the OO of Java and high order functions of Javascript. ES6 is a mess by staying backwards compatible with ES5.

>> No.66403564

I only write vanilla javascript, brief me on electron.

>> No.66403583

>forgetting var
>not using typescript and a linter

>> No.66403584

>2012 javascript in 2018
sweetie no

>thinking any google backed language will be anything but abandoned trash if it hasn't taken off within 5 years

>> No.66403590

It isn't.

>> No.66403619

Dude. Dart is totally obscure. No one ever heard of it. No one uses it. So, as to your assertion: not gonna happen.

>> No.66403656


>Whats this talk with JS becoming the universal language?

JS was always relevant, because it's part of the web triad (HTML/CSS/JS).

But the rise to success came with that army of frontend """devs""" who only know JS and hence spit out new JS code very day.
Then Node.js came and it was pretty much the portal to our beloved sane backend world which allowed the JS devs to zerg rush their shit onto us. Now After the dark MEAN hordes have passed they left a lot of groudn for further generation of Zerglings like React or Vue to spread showck and awe among the few true guardians of backend development.

Electron was more or less jus the icing on the cace, like they also burned down our fields after killing those we hold dear, beause it's in their nature and they hate all things of beauty. But electron didn't change that much, it came when the damage was already cone and we were doomed to a world of darkness and bad type casting. God be with us..

>> No.66403692

True veteran.

>> No.66403717

>Then Node.js came and it was pretty much the portal to our beloved sane backend world
I want to go to that world so much. Sane back end devel? There is reason php is meme

>> No.66403792


As long as there is life, there is hope.

>> No.66403829

>Dude. Dart is totally obscure. No one ever heard of it. No one uses it. So, as to your assertion: not gonna happen.
I totally admit what youre saying is correct, nobody knows anything about Dart other than its just another JS-transpiler language. No one even knows what the syntax looks like. Google is not promoting it at all.

But this thread is about JS becoming the defacto universial language, and its not going to happen because Electron is bloated shit, Node is a joke event-loop platform, ES6 is a Frankenstein language that only ES5 programmers love. So when you look at options, Dart is really the only serious contender to be the do-everything scripting language of the future that will even replace Python and Ruby.

>> No.66403881

>No one ever heard of it. No one uses it.
If this thread happened a couple months ago you'd be absolutely right. But Google is pushing Flutter hard as the next-gen cross-platform app toolkit and it's joined at the hip with Dart. A year from now they'll be standard, mainstream tech.
>inb4 Google pulls the plug on literally everything

>> No.66403901

>JS becoming the universal language
I kinda enjoy writing JS, but I hope this is never the case.

>> No.66403958

Javascript is fine for web apps, but its type system is a mess and can result in unexpected behaviors. For instance, the statement 10 == '10' returns true. Javascript is also unusably slow compared to C++ or even other scripting languages (such as Python).

>> No.66404045 [DELETED] 


>> No.66404431

>javascript slower than python

nice fake news, guido rossum

>> No.66404462

typescript changed everything, mate

>> No.66404543

>no standard io
>universal language
the absolute state of you faggots is appalling
fix your piece of shit or stop shilling it

>> No.66404549


>> No.66404670

Just makes it a new language like Java + functional programming shit. It's better, but why are we always stuck with some form of JS? Looks like webassembly is too little, too late.

>> No.66404678

what's that? not baiting

>> No.66404731

Literally just google it.
It's a framework to build desktop apps with JS and HTML.

>> No.66404748

wait, so react and angular is a kill now?

>> No.66404756

no typing is a fucking nightmare that's what

>> No.66404774

he's a brainlet

>> No.66404776

You still need React is for mobile.

>> No.66404789

the other side of this is that languages that prevent programmers from doing retarded shit are quickly flooded with pajeets

>> No.66404819
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It typically Python does actually run faster than JavaScript. This is epically true if you are using any of the specialized Python libraries like TensorFlow, Numpy, or Pandas which are all mostly just wrappers for a bunch of optimized C code.

>> No.66404865
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Its sane to the fucking shit show that is front end development. Fuck front end development. It is the absolute worst.

>> No.66404882

>Optimized C is faster than JS
>therefore, Python is faster than JS
Cool thanks

>> No.66405056

>wrappers for a bunch of optimized C code.
>faster than JS
wow, C is faster than javascript so python tacked onto C is faster too?

>> No.66405081

Electron runs on iPhone?

>> No.66405083

"Internet of Things". More and more smart stuff are built around JS frameworks which are easy and fast do develop.

>> No.66405104

No. Electron is for desktop only.
React Native does.

>> No.66405132

>a good programming language should prevent programmers from doing completely retarded shit

So you're saying C sucks because it's easy to do a huge amount of damage if the programmer is bad.

>> No.66405149

the problem with javascript and the reason /g/ hates it, is because it allows every chad and stacy to write """code""" and claim that they are a programmer. i actually quite like js desu but i sure as hell hope it doesnt become a universal language. besides there will always be swift and java for mobile dev. plus c++ if you need to access and manipulate memory.

>> No.66405152

>ES6 is a Frankenstein language

Dude, ES6 is the reason JS is even taken seriously today. Nobody writes ES5 anymore.

>> No.66405204

>freezing an insecure outdated version of chrome and shipping it to millions of users

no thanks.

>> No.66405245

Or use typescript with ecma6

>> No.66405262

Because js runs basically everywhere without the need to install anything.

>> No.66405276

wow dude you must have gotten an A+ on the deep learning course at codecademy

>> No.66405284

This guy...
Have you recently had a big hit to the head?

>> No.66405334

>Or use typescript with ecma6
>here, use my transpiler language on top of ES6
how about no

>> No.66405354

>what is webpack or browersify

>> No.66405390

also its reaching the embedded world

>> No.66405411

Dart runs as a standalone scripting language which can be compiled or run interpreted on a JIT'ed VM and you expect me to take seriously ES6 which can not be used as a standalone scripting language unless you use Node which does not qualify as a standard library. And now you bring up package managers? LIke that somehow turns JS into its own scripting language? You are totally clueless

>> No.66405421

>and claim that they are a programmer.

actually no, average chad and stacy can't make async services to work correctly. python and php fits better that description.

>> No.66405472
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On my websites I never found much use for Javascript, besides cookie notices, password strenght indicators and image galleries.

>> No.66405531
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nobody really cares what pajeets write their intrinsically insecure IoT spaghetti in so who cares. "universal" doesn't mean shit as long as capable professionals exist.

>> No.66406341

>muh pajeets
>muh insecure
>muh bloated

but you can't write a better technology and prove the world is wrong

>> No.66406362

basically the shittiest lowest common denominator wins in the end

see also C

>> No.66406469
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JS is just another rendition of "not programming for any specific machine" which is good in that you know your shit's gonna work for everybody, but it's gonna be slower than if you took the time to make separate optimized versions for each platform you need to support.

Let's not forget that the JVM introduced/popularized this whole idea of cross-compatibility via some extra layer of abstraction that works out the differences in hardware, but Java and its daughter langs (e.g. Scala and Kotlin) are held in high regard, generally speaking.

Of course, there are natural differences between a VM and an interpreted lang, but the end goal is the same, it's just that one happens to interface with the internet better than the other.

t. Udemy

>> No.66406679

at least is not python, python is the shittiest overrated lang ever.

>> No.66406768

Like what? Java lets you do a ton of retarded shit.
I haven't seen Rust become the official pajeet language yet.

>> No.66407022
File: 100 KB, 1280x720, javascript.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.66407025

you can't do retarded shit in rust because you can't do anything at all in it

>> No.66407042

If you know how to use js an afternoon of setting npm and guides are all you need to start writing some backend code

>> No.66407047

Explain why you're so butthurt about python.
That shit does its job like a pro. Javascript's NPM and nodejs literally makes system breaking releases every three months. Off the top of my head I think of teapot error and the time that npm chown -R / about February.

>> No.66407053

I've been doing job searching, no one cares about Haskell. Even in the AI world, there's Python, Scala, and Closure.
>blaming the tools

Because it's portable as fuck, and there's a hundred different JS interpreters that can be embedded into stand alone projects. The front and back end only describe the programs architecture, that program can really occur anywhere within the OS's architecture. VHLL is an appropriate example of where a JS backend could occur.

>it allows every chad and stacy to write """code""" and claim that they are a programmer
Is that wrong, shouldn't programming be as accessible and intuitive as possible?

>> No.66407068

You can if you jump through enough hoops.

>> No.66407079

this is literally a browser interpreted language


All caps, because Im yelling at you, you fucking moron. Chrome is outdated and now your entire fucking bloatware has a 218MB distributable because of all the javascript baby frameworks you include. FUCK. I can freeze python binaries + python or do swift, java, C for all less than 2MB.

>> No.66407084

I love javascript for its capabilities and ease of use

I hate it because everyone can read your source code

>> No.66407089

>trying to explain concepts of memory consumption and efficiency to web designer beauty queens

>> No.66407118
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No it should not be. You are the reason we have to buy a brand new phone to run the same 4 inputs for a fucking form. Because you add so much fucking complexity just to reassemble the web browser, just so you only have to write 8 lines of code and 40 lines of source includes.

>> No.66407125

python is a fucking glue language its ok to use it for build plug-ins inside other programs like blender, gimp, inkscape, etc. But there are brainlet retards trying to do whole software on it, and when I say trying is because there is no software made in pure python that worths only shitty projects done on the top of opencv, tensorflow, qt etc because their creators are brainlet monkeys unable to learn C++ or C at least.

>> No.66407150


just launch a webapp and use the user's web browser. what the fuck does electron solve?

>> No.66407173

>shouldn't programming be as accessible and intuitive as possible?
No. You don't dumb down things to be more inclusive at the cost of the results being shittier.

>> No.66407183

>use the user's web browser
this is literally what electron solves
granny can run your app even if her default browser is ie8

>> No.66407189

True, I'm not a fan either. The way it handles classes is absolutely disgusting, especially considering how the language is otherwise pretty clean. The fact that type mismatches cause runtime errors instead of compile-time errors is retarded too.

>no operator overloads
>everything must be inside a class
>no pointers
>lambdas can only use variables declared final
it's pretty restrictive

>> No.66407207
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Lol. You don't even know what Electron does.

Electron is a framework for making desktop apps with javascript. Electron bundles and ships the Chromium browser and interprets your web app with chrome, and displays it as a 'javascript desktop app'.

This doesn't "solve the problem". You have literally recreated the browser. You can almost say this has doubled the problem.

>> No.66407230

Basically covering both frontend and backend. I work with it and think it's very awful for everything that's not loading content on a webpage. And obviously the job I'm doing now is not that but server development on Node.js

>> No.66407266

One complaint that's not usually told: how classes are declared. Yeah newer specifications added syntactic sugar to make it more java-like, but tell me why you should declare a class and a function the same way. JavaScript works it's own way with functions/classes and it's fucking confusing.

>> No.66407272

You are both pretentious retards, I'm not talking about production level software. I'm talking about tools to entice regular people into programming.
>People like you card
People like you are the reason ordinary people tend to think programming is for cranky nerds that play code golf.

>> No.66407273

>. The way it handles classes is absolutely disgusting, especially considering how the language is otherwise pretty clean.

The funny thing is that pytards defends the existence of explicit "self" when almost all languages dealed with in a clean way.

>> No.66407299

Java is A LOT faster than interpreted languages though. It's basically an already compiled language, only the last, cpu/os specific step is left for the runtime and it's a lot less than the time to actually interpret a py/js line.

>> No.66407323

Java > any other language

even .NET isn't platform independent yet although they're trying

>> No.66407329

>python and js are purely interpreted

there are people this retarded in 2018

>> No.66407335

thats because OOPfags wanted to bring their thinking into the prototype based programming. I cannot understand why some people has so much troubles learning something as basic as the objects system in JS.

>> No.66407337

And? Normies can fuck off. They have all the tools to learn and improve themselves, if they don't want to do it, fuck them.

>> No.66407379

>>66406469 (me)
Oh, I know, that's the distinction I was trying to point out. Java is fast as fuck considering the amount of overhead it requires.

However, JS fits very naturally into web development, and it just so happens that basically everything uses the internet nowadays, so it's more popular because it lends itself well to the present meme of "every piece of software must be connected via the internet to every other piece of software"

>> No.66407381
File: 482 KB, 500x236, tfyjs.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

For many of the items you've listed, I haven't had these issues when writing a quick add-on app for clients in REST, or web server app, and have found it to be a refreshing break from PHP.

>no pointers
test = notTest
that equals sign is a pointer in python
notTest = 0
the equals sign is now a direct memory location

Game designer and programmer John D. Carmack concluded in 2005 about Java on cell-phones: "The biggest problem is that Java is really slow. On a pure cpu / memory / display / communications level, most modern cell phones should be considerably better gaming platforms than a Game Boy Advance. With Java, on most phones you are left with about the CPU power of an original 4.77 mhz (sic) IBM PC, and lousy control over everything."

You don't even have a valid response or reason to stand on.
>Tools to entice regular people
No. Keep regular people in Excel sheets and consumer products. We put them in the playpen for a reason.
Because I've seen what fucking business "regular people" conduct. You haven't seen the CLUSTER fuck visual basic script that some asshole wrote to simply email a customer. He required two machines in order to send it. I've lived production hell. I've seen visual basic and batch "programs" written by "everyday nofuckingbodies" that drove business scalability into the fucking ground.

Hire programmers.
Do business.
Let each live respectively in their own side of the fence, and do what each person does best, to serve the business. There is a reason why we study so damn hard or get degrees for the field of our choice, and you don't see me trying to tell the production manager of a plant how to conduct their product sprint just because I do SCRUM in my line of work.

>> No.66407409

>Normies can fuck off
Obviously the current tools aren't effective when not enough people are jumping aboard. Walk outside, what do you see? People looking down at their smartphones. It's pretty evident there needs to be programming languages for the masses, not text based, maybe not even conditional. Just a way to get everyone to start creating things.

>> No.66407442

>No. Keep regular people in Excel sheets and consumer products. We put them in the playpen for a reason.
Umm wow, listen to yourself.
>Visual Basic
lmao, VB got me into programming!
Are you reading what I say? NOTHING about production level software.

>> No.66407464

All those things already exist, the people just don't give a shit and don't want to learn. And anything that is sufficiently dumbed down is completely useless to make anything good. You want to reinvent fucking Visual Basic. Hot tip: Nobody wants Visual Basic, it was shit, created shit, and the people who learned it would have spent their time better learning C.

>> No.66407481

Christ - do you even know how bad the security on existing apps is?
We can't even get people to patch fucking Drupal or their wordpress sites, or fucking reboot their routers, or stop consumers from posting cleartext passwords into cloud storage. Shit I cant even get my parents to stop using one password.

We had an FBI issued "request" to reboot our routers, because there was BGP hijacking occurring. Imagine what hundreds, or thousands, if not millions more apps and their respective platforms create? There are millions of routers that currently run PHP for example, another trainwreck interpreter, that if you throw the proper sequence of escape characters into, you can arbitrarily plant files, eventually redirect DNS queries of home users logging into banks, etc.
Databases with ports open, no login timeouts, data stores accidentally left out in the open, etc etc.

Javascript is not the language for what you are describing, either. If you're so god-damned-brilliant, then why don't you create the MVP of concept you are describing? Until that time, stop spreading ignorance - because you do not know the consequences of what you are preaching.

>> No.66407492

Yes anon, beginner programmers should learn C, good thinking. Again please watch this video >>66407272

>> No.66407499

Looks like you're the one who didn't pay attention to his post. That nigga knows what he's talking about. Anyone can learn how to code, but to actually do it well is a completely different story. No programming language can change this fact.

>> No.66407516

>my post
>going this far over your head

>> No.66407537
File: 195 KB, 1224x1445, intentionalTrolling.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

granny just has to go to the fucking website. She doesnt want to go to the website then install your fucking app.

Gr8 B8 M8

>> No.66407561

>a way to get everyone to start creating things
this isn't how normies are. they just consume

>> No.66407571

The video is pointless. Normal people can already do all the shit he says they should do. If they don't want to learn how to do so because "bawww it's too hard" they can fuck off. Wanting people to code without knowing how to code is just a waste of time, it will never work properly despite what his stories of 15 year old students in bumfuck "coding" toy apps says.

>> No.66407592

but the web app doesn't work in ie8, because it's a million and a half lines of panjeet's finest

>> No.66407596

>thats because OOPfags wanted to bring their thinking into the prototype based programming. I cannot understand why some people has so much troubles learning something as basic as the objects system in JS.
prototype OO is fine for what it was designed for, for isolated things like mouse-over animation, etc. But for building large web apps prototype OO is totally insufficient. Which is why JS frameworks like React and Angular rely on class-based OO. And it should be pointed out that the class system in ES6 is syntactic sugar over the prototype OO system of ES5. Web applications are becoming more large scale and require more Java-like OO, which is why a language like Dart is the future, it provides class-based OO, all the high order function ability of JS, and strong built-in module system.

>> No.66407627
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>all those faggots shitting on js backend
>the alternative is php, java web (and it's framework and servlet hell), c#

can't we just agree that web development is shit and call it a day?

>> No.66407641

? Web backend can be literally anything.

>> No.66407676

i didn't say it couldn't be anything.
but i'm talking job market demand languages for web development here, not your avarage redditor pet project language

>> No.66407685

>java, php, python, perl, ruby, go
Web development is sweet so long as you adhere to model controller view paradigms. Javascript can do this, but the point is that the language was never designed to do this, nor should it.
Honest to god the only thing that should be back there is probably PHP. I hate PHP. But I also know when to use it, and you don't fucking see me making PHP front ends.

The irony is that you know he doesn't do web development, because he would have said that you have to use ActiveX in IE8 and not javascript. Most of the features implemented in jQuery and the like that need to run on IE8-11 require activeX & browser forced into edge mode in the meta.

>> No.66407731

what? java and c# are comfy, servlets are deeply abstracted for you. you feel much safer developing in those languages. php is getting faster, though not much better. at least you have many more options on the backend.

>> No.66407772

>Code Academy
>Kotlin has a web IDE just so people can learn the fucking lang
>IntelliJ community edition practically writes your code for you

There's plenty of stuff out there for all ages and dozens of langs. I can't imagine how someone couldn't teach themselves at least one language.

>> No.66407788

Do you have some actual data to back that up?
I see many companies having mostly node.js, Java, Python, or some C variant. Some have their backends in Erlang (or are migrating to it) and swear by it even.

>> No.66407805

Cheap codemonkeys

>> No.66408036

there is going to be soon a day where the operating system its going to be a web browser and the native instructions of CPU are web assembly or even raw JS, actually its possible to build a high scale based JS Parser

>> No.66408880

Carmack is a known hack. Java is nearly as fast as C. I wouldn't call that "really slow". There are, however, more robust game engines in C++ than in Java. You can still write C applications for Android.

>> No.66409077

This so much goddammit. A year ago I had to rewrite a "program" that transforms a bunch of xml files into a single database, does some value mapping and the like. The guy who maintained it before me managed to split his program into >230 different visual basic files without any consistent style whatsoever and with random fails ever other run. DON'T LET NORMALFAGS BUILD YOUR PROGRAMS. THEY WILL FAIL. YOUR DEVELOPERS WILL HAVE A HORRIBLE TIME FIXING SHIT

>> No.66409115

this kind of criticism only comes from NEETs and low IQ retards

>> No.66409122

Every language allows horrible code
Imagine if every pajeet and codelet used plain C instead, you'd have memory leaks on top of memory leaks
Electron and other hand-holding Lego ages 3 and up frameworks are a response to the decrease in overall quality of programmers on the market and the bias towards pushing shit out fast instead of polishing before release because of the "it runs, so it's good" and "we can patch it later" mentality
Back when Internet wasn't a huge thing you had to make a good program because patching it online wasn't an option for most of your customers and making shitty software meant losing all your userbase

>> No.66410052
File: 135 KB, 728x2218, JS_vs_Lua.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

What is /g/'s opinion on Lua as opposed to JS? I've heard that it's "Javascript done right" or something.

>> No.66410260

That is exactly correct, anon. Sane system devs use Ada.

>> No.66410309

>tfw you realize all languages are an abstraction on ASM, which is an abstraction of binary
You only need a good compiler and auditors, or a good VM
I am going to have to assume managing a VM is cheaper than auditors AND coders

>> No.66410440


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