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62857303 No.62857303 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe] [rbt]

>Several youtubers and tech reviewers have been caught comparing overclocked 8700ks to stock amd and kaby Lake Cpus.
>including gamers nexus, Linux shill tips and jays2cents.

After Intel trying to hide the real frequencies of their chips, and coffee Lake being just a paper launch that will not be available this year they now no longer guarantee that the Cpus will be able to run at max turbo frequency even given adequate power and cooling.

That means, the 8400 benchmarks are invalid. A lot of 8400s out there won't be able to get 4ghz. The only frequency they're guaranteed to run is 2.8ghz.

But the reviews are already out, so everyone is already tricked.

Source: https://youtu.be/O98qP-FsIWo

>> No.62857325

I don't understand the gamers nexus test.

>> No.62857366

I fucking hate youtuber tech reviewers. They fucking love money. Don't trust them at all, even if they're saying something good about the company you like.

>> No.62857380

dude create a second channel without your shitty accent already. just pay someone to read a script.

>> No.62857397

That accent is just awful to listen to.

>> No.62857411
File: 102 KB, 615x802, merchant exposed.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

The fact that I can use pic related unironically is disturbing, but Intel never changes, sadly

>> No.62857448

Wow amd fanboys really are on damage control trying to come up with conspiracy theories for chips only a few people have

>> No.62857470
File: 101 KB, 491x371, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>paper release
>sold hundreds and is available for ordering
explain this

>> No.62857471

Does he not know the linus and jays2cents used water coolers and other testers didnt? Obvioisly they had better scores

>> No.62857480
File: 234 KB, 882x758, 1491835275725.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Holy fuck, people here call this guy a conspiracy theorist. But this fucking real.
Intel shills btfo.

>> No.62857481

Yeah, none of those have shipped

>> No.62857490


>> No.62857492

>"debunks" youtube "shills" with youtube tinfoil hat


>> No.62857493

No thanks.

>> No.62857508

He showed proof of the overclock in the video. And gamers nexus admitted it.

>> No.62857509

I remember linus put my name in one of his videos of me calling him a shill.

I was not wrong

>> No.62857511
File: 112 KB, 691x771, 1497894370789.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

A-a-a-adoredtv? Fake news! Intel dindu nuffin!


>> No.62857529

Yeah, they overclocked it and used a water cooler. I knew that when i watched jayz video. Didnt need to be a 25 minute video. His specualtion on the 8400 was nonsense

>> No.62857572
File: 90 KB, 660x527, gee.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

hurr durr paper launch
not available till next year

>> No.62857590

He actually said he thinks the 8400 will only run at 3.2ghz turbo when the cheaper boards release. This level of damage control is hillarious

>> No.62857594

>it's not even at 4.0 ghz

>> No.62857596

Once again Adored exposes Jewtel and their shill reviewers. Intel shills absolutely BTFO and on suicide watch.

>> No.62857601


It would blow up if it was at 4Ghz

>> No.62857610

Can you greentext the video plox. I don't want to hear his stupid voice

>> No.62857627

>jay2cents oced with a water cooler
>insaine theory about how 8400 will only turbo correctly on z370 boards

>> No.62857641

Exactly. Intel only set the base frequency 1ghz lower by accident. There is literally nothing to see here goyim. They'll all hit 3.8ghz. Oh, you betcha.

>> No.62857654

Intel them self said that their Cpus are not guaranteed to reach max turbo under any circumstances. We don't know if a average 8400 will be 4.0 or 2.9 ghz.

>> No.62857683

Wait, what? I thought that they disclosed just the max single core turbo. Is this why they want to hide even that from now on?

>> No.62857684

They stopped publishing all-core turbo information but never gave an explanation.

>> No.62857711

This eurotrad is not a source. It says it will turbo if it isnt too hit and has the power draw, like every other turbo invent. You shills are so desperate and retarded

>> No.62857738
File: 51 KB, 500x500, 1203622889390.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I posted this couple days ago
>Ryzen came out
>People start reviewing the Wraith Stock cooler with other third party cooler
>Intel come out
>Not a single test using stock cooler.

I complained about this because my i3 Haswell was running much hotter with stock cooler than what people said in reviews.

>> No.62857753

No cooler included

>> No.62857757

I saw someone review the 8400 with the stock cooler. He said it was at 65 under load. I am skeptical of that but if i could remain around 70 on it that would be great

>> No.62857772
File: 7 KB, 300x180, jew.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>techtubers literally making it crystal clear how much money they are pocketting from review companies
>up to 4 different ads per video
>people still retarded enough to take think they are credible with the retardedly obvious amount of sponsoring
retarded goyim

>> No.62857782

I7 8700k still good

>> No.62857787

>Intel turbo boost 2.0 overclocks the chips automatically above the normal turbo boost frequency if temps are low.
>Turbo boost 2.0 is enabled by default in the bios.
>YouTube reviewers don't know this.
>Que wild range of cinebench scores. While normal scores for the same CPU are within 10 - 20 of each other, the 8700k had a range of 200+.
>Turbo frequencys aren't gaurranteed, so the base clock on the 8400 of 2.8 GHz might be all you are able to get on low end motherboards (speculation)

>> No.62857812

Exactly. As long as the CPU is under x degrees celsius and drawing under y watts of power you can absolutely be assured that these processors might hit a theoretical maximum turbo clock on z amount of cores. Clearly Intel has nothing to hide. I just wish these AMD pirate shills would stop asking what those parameters and die and please please please buy Coffee Lake CPUs.

>> No.62857829

>The chips Intel sent out to reviewers are much better than the chips that other reviewers bought themselves.

>> No.62857835

>Motherboard manufacturers have an auto OC feature that sets CPU all core turbo to the single core turbo (for 8700k, 4.7GHz vs 4.3Ghz) that explains huge variance in scores from different "reviewers"
> Intel refusing to release info about 2/4/6 core turbo clocks because the CPUs are so house-fire they can't gurantee they will even run at them + to stay in "TDP".
> Cheaper B360 mobos coming soon will not have these auto OC features (or have them scaled down) so people buying locked i3/5/7 now will be stuck on ~3+Ghz and get much worse performance than what they see on reviews when the CPUs are running at their 1 core turbo all the time (4Ghz for i5 8400 for example).

>> No.62857839

The 8400 theory is shilling of the highest degree and shpuld have been left out of the video. Shows his ignorance of how turbo works while parsing intels words trying to make some unfounded theory

>> No.62857843

Yeah they disclose max single core turbo and don't day it's single core only.

It will turbo if it can do it under 65w, and it doesn't guarantee that it will. Most likely at least some of them will not be able to do it since silicon quality varies and this is bottom of the barrel. But we don't, and can't know now.

>Intel turbo boost 2.0 overclocks the chips automatically above the normal turbo boost frequency if temps are low.
No that's not it. The mobo they used was set to automatically OVERCLOCK, overriding the turbo boost.

>> No.62857882
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>paper launch
>no cpus are actually in stock anywhere
huh, thats really fucking cute
my spider sense is sensing schenanigans?
why would they do this?
prevent real people from benching their shit?

>> No.62857890
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I mean that wouldnt be an issue but 65w is a rating not a cap you stupid mong.

>> No.62857921


>> No.62858101

They probably just want to get the biased reviews out so people wait for these instead of buying amd. They can't produce enough at the moment.

>> No.62858109
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>> No.62858139

But... Only mobos available are those with auto-oc... This still won't show how will they perform on cheap mobos

>> No.62858157

>turbo wont work with an auto oc mobo
You guyd are actually retarted. Auto oc and turbo are not the same thing

>> No.62858193


>"proof? no-goyim, we don't disclose all core clocks, why would you ever need to know that?"

>> No.62858196

Not him, but where did he imply that auto OC and turbo were the same thing?

>> No.62858199

>no delivery date
they don't even know they are going to get the next shipment

>> No.62858220

Don't forget reviewers benching the lower tier coffe lake chips with fast memory (3000mhz+) that the lower tier motherboard won't support. That can easily be another 15% performance removed depending on use case.

>> No.62858243

Last meme arrow, saying i5 wont reach its max turbo if you dont have a z370 board with auto oc

>> No.62858275
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i was feeling bad with my 1700 but if its a 4.7 ghz house fire performance number who fucking cares without deliding. what makes the LEAST amount of sense is, how these youtube 'tech reviewers' didnt check how fast the chip was running on a simple program while testing. like holy shit

>> No.62858302

I grew up watching intel lie about the clock speed of their CPUs
The quality of their products may have increased since the first generations of dual cores but they still outright lie to consumers.
Thats why I buy AMD. Plus they generally cost less amd run cooler at stock voltage, so i do believe in the product.

>> No.62858315

He said that the CPUs on a cheaper motherboard won't be at their 1 core turbo "all the time", not that it won't be able to achieve that turbo at all.

>> No.62858327

>believing a click bait title video
Might as well just link to an Intel house fire 4/20 dank robo-memez video.

>> No.62858337

...on all cores

>> No.62858344

>adored butthurt about Canon lake release

Wow I didn't expect this at all

>> No.62858361

It has nothing to do with auto oc

>> No.62858392

Multicore enhancement tells the CPU to use the top turbo boost setting under all loads. https://www.anandtech.com/show/6214/multicore-enhancement-the-debate-about-free-mhz

>> No.62858405

Or you could turn the base clock up like a normal person

>> No.62858436

>overclocking a locked intel CPU

>> No.62858453

Sorry, what exactly are you disagreeing with me about here? I thought we were talking about turbo boost?

>> No.62858484
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>> No.62858494

>Nvidia 1080 Gigabyte
>4095MB video memory

Explain this fgt.

>> No.62858500



>> No.62858511
File: 274 KB, 1873x854, intelaviv.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>> No.62858522

The faster RAM doesn't much matter outside of overclocking. The stock CPUs see little performance jumps outside of 2666.

>> No.62858525

You can turn the base clock up on locked cpus

I was saying auto oc doesnt have anything to do with cpu turbo. Turbo is a cpu feature and auto oc is a motherboard feature. 8400 cannot be oced so auto oc isnt going to do anything

>> No.62858590

yeah he's wrong too often if you ask me
makes me sad as a loyal intel consumer

>> No.62858656


>> No.62858666

Multicore enhancement isn't touching the base clocks though. The 8400 supports Turbo Boost, therefore multicore enhancement should work on it. Is there evidence suggesting it doesn't?

>> No.62858721

To clarify, multicore enhancement simply tells the CPU to always use its maximum turbo boost frequency under any load.

>> No.62858725
File: 64 KB, 507x990, new cpu.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

The scores that are marked I got with the newest bios. The others were stock bios scores from back in March. I spent less that $400 for cpu and mobo.

>> No.62858753

Yeah so thats just increasing the base clock to the max turbo frequency. If it makes it run higher frequencies than the normal turbo could i suppose you could see better performance. I get my 8400 and z370 in the mail today i will probably try testing it out in gta 5 or something

>> No.62858805

>muh money meme

The fucking Fury X cost me 700 euros

>> No.62858809


What is your clockspeed for the top score run? It sure as fuck isn't 3.8ghz under stock conditions.

>> No.62858820
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>> No.62858884
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>> No.62858910

oy vey delet

>> No.62858937

But gee said they are in israel and thats bad because jews are evil

>> No.62858968

intel does intel stuff

who isnt suprised

>> No.62858986

the damage control team that was dispatched to the thread almost immediately

>> No.62858994

it is 3.8

>> No.62859168

TL;DR benchmarks are accurate as long as you install any cooling better than the trash Intel includes with their CPUs.

>> No.62859191

And check that the motherboard isn't basically overclocking by default.

>> No.62859198
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I didn't even need to click the link to know this was yet another adoredtv amd shilling/intel+nvidia FUD spreading crap like always

>> No.62859217

>Jayz already groveling in the comments

Topkek. "I-I'm redoing my Ryzen benches, honest! I-I-I'm not part of the Shintel machine!"

>> No.62859222

Now one thing is having an accent, another thing entirely is having a literal speech impediment that makes you utterly unable to properly enunciate words as well as pronounce them in a flat out wrong way.

How can people genuinely listen to this garbage?

>> No.62859231

>I didn't even need to click the link to know this was yet another adoredtv amd shilling/intel+nvidia FUD spreading crap like always


kek nice try

>> No.62859238

>accents are speech impediments

>> No.62859252


>> No.62859253


>so I told that teachin' lady I only needed to know three letters. U! S! A!

>> No.62859269

In this guy's case it might as well be. He sounds like he's in fucking pain and begging for someone to put him down.

>> No.62859279

Just out of curiosity, where do you live?

>> No.62859285
File: 152 KB, 1156x1017, 1690.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

the only thing I change was clock speed and voltage.

>> No.62859289

Inside your skeltal

>> No.62859365

8400 getting 4ghz is due to Z370 and their auto-OC feature(multicore optimization, motherboard vendors skirting intel specifications). This is something few realize. Stock 8400's turbo on 1 core is only 4ghz and 6 core is lower. JayZTwoCents confirm this. So does GamerNexus. So they'll probably update their "reviews" notifying users about this motherboard feature.

on H370 or lower costing motherboard, this is going to be lower performing than what's shown with the Z370 + multi-core enhancements features.

Other than that, what hes saying is mainly number speculations, which might be semi-useful for those without any info or don't know how to calculate performance differences between different clocks, but not very useful for me.

>> No.62859382

I want a 8700K. I love being to OC high, but... that TIM tho :( fucking Intel

>> No.62859405


>this is going to be lower performing than what's shown with the Z370 + multi-core enhancements features.

Which dramatically shifts its value proposition against ryzen.

>> No.62859427
File: 66 KB, 568x612, 1507425549142.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>amd shill on youtube makes crazy untested theory to damage control for ryzen
>shill then spread this misinformation

>> No.62859443

Also it might void warranty.

>> No.62859450
File: 685 KB, 1401x867, 1507406072181.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.62859460


>> No.62859482


AMD marketing 101, basically.

Can't have your product stand on its own? Well, hire a billion indians to spread FUD about competition online while pushing the narrative that you're a saint that does no wrong! (and still end up losing market share anyway)

>> No.62859506
File: 123 KB, 638x599, 1503214871909.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

5 shekels have been deposited at your account

>> No.62859510

>buy this expensive mobo for your cpu's top performance!
>buy this expensive RAM for your cpu's top performance!
Fucking hell man

>> No.62859517
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>adoretard tv

>> No.62859535


RAM is cheaper than these sorts of motherboards.

>> No.62859549

>The only frequency they're guaranteed to run is 2.8ghz
That's bullshit, they've released 6 cores in the past that clocked just fine, this is retarded amd shilling.
>paper launch
now that's a real issue

>> No.62859555

>try to buy 3200 ram
>you have to spend $150+

>try to buy motherboards
>you have to spend $150+


>> No.62859578

remind again when did intel actually released a 6 core on a low tier chipset?

>> No.62859586

It's *into* your account, pajeet. Keep practicing your english though, someday you may even sound convincing!

>> No.62859600
File: 95 KB, 405x412, 1506974178165.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>the absolute state of inteltards

>> No.62859606

Intel turbo doesn't do all core full turbo on 8400, 8600K, or 8700K.

In fact on JayZTwoCents' new video, he shows what the default 8700K does on all core turbo, which was 4.3Ghz. The default motherboard behaviour is to overclock the cpu/raise volt/temp/power consumption to 4.7Ghz on all cores. This gives roughly 5-10% performance difference boost.

When reviewers claim this is "stock" over AMD stock, this is falsification of data.

On top of this, on ASUS, this feature is tied with RAM overclock, so if you want to use the XMP ram rated setting aka, using your 3000 mhz ram @ 3000 mhz, you are forced to enable the multi-core feature. If you don't, then your ram runs at 2133 mhz default.

>> No.62859608
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>> No.62859628
File: 45 KB, 590x475, 48bf30695041b83432ae02f9225e5ddb.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>buying anything from kiketel in 2017

>> No.62859653

>amd shills making damage control threads
>oy vay intel is finished

>> No.62859664

1690 @ 3.8ghz? What does the 8700k get at stock?

>> No.62859671
File: 864 KB, 160x270, 1507091595839.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>intel gets exposed
>intel sends its pajeet squadron to damage control
>"its actually amdfags trying to damage control"

>> No.62859687

>well know amd youtuber shill making up conspiracy theories

>> No.62859694

>Intel™ Core™ Inside™

>> No.62859697

Between 1250s to 1440s. Depending on what "stock" motherboards you get. Motherboard manufacturers are probably coding in some various tweaks outside the scope of stock intel settings.

>> No.62859698

>no longer guarantee that the Cpus will be able to run at max turbo frequency

Did you learn to spin poo from the ryzen symbol or all the vegitable curry?

>> No.62859723
File: 2.00 MB, 268x200, 1507033143982.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>he a shill im not a shill i dindu nuffin intel dindu nuffin
where does this end?

>> No.62859737

Fuck off, pole.

>> No.62859739

7 youtubers already re do their tests

>talks ONLY about adored

new on the list


>> No.62859752

anyone have some honest graphs of the performance of i5 8400 vs 1600x? TDP would be nice too

>> No.62859771
File: 619 KB, 1920x1080, Screenshot_2017-10-10-23-32-05.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.62859779

>honest graphs
Any data that opposes my viewpoint is the fabrication of a shill.

>> No.62859801

I have a 1600x, can't wait for ryzen+ with higher clock speeds, looks like the performance is already there.

>> No.62859802

everyone is comparing it to 1500x when 1600x seems like a better comparison.

I don't have a viewpoint

>> No.62859818

>they now no longer guarantee that the Cpus will be able to run at max turbo frequency even given adequate power and cooling
Where did they say this?

>> No.62859830

1600 is a more apt comparison, but people don't do that.

No one really buys 1500X when there's 1600 on the corner. Especially since the prices are all so similar.

>> No.62859832
File: 84 KB, 653x726, 1494162098217.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.62859843

thats what I meant. anyways where are the graphs

>> No.62859851


>> No.62859859

1600x wont pull less power than a 1500x

>> No.62859867

>taking the words of a retad claiming that FX is better than SB i5 by 10% in games now because muh threads
>completely btfo by even that amd aussie shill Steve
This is adored we're talking about.

>> No.62859868

look at jayz video he has the sources

>> No.62859876

I know thats why I want to see a comparison. 1600 vs 8400 with TDP and FPS for a few games.

>> No.62859895

Other sites talk about intel no longer disclosing multi-core turbo
Anyways it appears that for some crazy reason Intel wants to fight AMD with lower prices, but to do it they'd have not to throw out worse than normal chips...

>> No.62859903

Google it lad

>> No.62859909

nah I want the shills to post them for me

>> No.62859911
File: 1.12 MB, 1293x1730, LRM_EXPORT_20170411_145818.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Kill yourself you perma-BTFO'd tripfaggot

>> No.62859917

The "should multicore enhancment be on by defailt video"?

>> No.62859918

Them not disclosing multi-core turbo doesn't mean it can't run at max turbo even with adequate power/cooling. Max turbo for single-core is still public.

>> No.62859922

>retad claiming that FX is better than SB i5 by 10% in games now because muh threads
>completely ignores the proof that was not even benchmarked by him that he showed in the video

>> No.62859999

So MCE only works on k chips? It doesnt do anything on the 8400?

>> No.62860018

Not the other guy but here's Intel's latest turbo clock specifications.


8700K single core turbo is 4.7 Ghz, all core is 4.3 Ghz

8400 single core turbo is 4 Ghz and all core is 3.8

Multicore enhancements are raising the default clock for both to 4.7 all core on 8700K and 4.0 all core on 8400 on some motherboards.

Intel probably wants to curb down on "that", which could mean they could remove the "all-core" turbo and "single-core" turbo information from public. But allow motherboards to tune it to their settings to beat AMD. OR they could be doing this to force motherboards to follow standard stock settings.

Chances are its the first, the hiding part is simply to draw less attention in the future

>> No.62860020
File: 119 KB, 1000x1000, intel ceo JUST.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.62860051

MCE doesnt effect the 8400 from what i can tell. Ive heard zero reports of the 8400 running higher than 3.8 on all cores in any benchmark unless you know of one

>> No.62860065
File: 1.93 MB, 460x259, 1504453452627.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>buy intel
>get top notch performance

>buy amd
>have to convince yourself that you made the right choice and also make a list of all the many things that do not properly support your hardware while clinging to the 3 or 4 ones that actually even know it exists in the first place, while also making sure to spread AMD's gospel like jehowah witnesses in every thread in every board and forum in perpetual damage control mode

>> No.62860073
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>> No.62860074

0 on AMD‘s page

>> No.62860090

more like
>buy Intel
>get overpriced housefires

>buy AMD
>get shitty OC headroom and have to look for special snowflake RAM in the hopes that it will scale well

>> No.62860102

>*NEW* Paper launches don't matter!
>Multi-core doesn't matter!
>Price/performance doesn't matter!
>Performance per watt doesn't matter!
>Power usage doesn't matter!
>Temperatures don't matter!
>Soldered dies don't matter!
>Upgradeability doesn't matter!
>Unlocked CPUs don't matter!
>Synthetic loads don't matter!

>> No.62860124

We need an ASUS mobo + 8400 paired up. Most of the 8400 reviews don't tell what the operating clocks are, as they assume the "stock setting"

>> No.62860135


Christ with all the things on the list from ryzen's launch the list of things that don't matter is massive by now.

CS:GO low settings still counts though right?

>> No.62860140

Your list is really short, son

>Multi-core doesn't matter!
>Price/performance doesn't matter!
>Performance per watt doesn't matter!
>Power usage doesn't matter!
>Temperatures don't matter!
>Soldered dies don't matter!
>Stutters don't matter!
>Streaming doesn't matter!
>Data centers don't matter!
>Locked CPUs don't matter!
>OEMs don't matter!
>Hyperscalers don't matter!
>Upgradeability doesn't matter!
>Anti-competitive business practices don't matter!
>Locked platform features don't matter!
>Synthetic loads don't matter!
>Burnt pins don't matter!
>*NEW* ECC support doesn't matter!
>*NEW* PCI-e lanes don't matter!
>*NEW* Power draw several times the TDP doesn't matter!
>*NEW* Paper launches don't matter!

>> No.62860168

To be honest the only thing that matters to me is if it's able to run the software I like to use at the price that I'm willing to spend.

>> No.62860192

I googled it someone and everyone was saying MCE doesnt work on non-k chips

>> No.62860197

I sure love Netflix

>> No.62860218

>I sure love Netflix
Noted. I'll keep that useful tidbit next to my ashes of the singularity benchmarks.

>> No.62860220

Not only is the i5 8400 much cheaper than most ryzen offerings, it blows all of them out of the water, while also running cooler and using less power. As a pro, it also doesn't need special snowflake ram so you get above sandy-bridge performance like Ryzen does. But enjoy running synthetic benchmarks all day long, anon.

>> No.62860241

Hi Brian!
Find me a non-Z370 mobo for my 8400 please.

>> No.62860260


>> No.62860269

At least it's a valid benchmarking software.

>> No.62860271


>> No.62860298

and im saying goku will beat jiren

we need proofs for this cause im pretty sure intel is at least giving some nudge to them on benchmarks apps..

>> No.62860308

>At least it's a valid benchmarking software.
Bullshit it is.
It's only valid for benchmarking how ashes of the singularity runs on a given system... a game that no one plays.

>> No.62860313

There isn't any proper investigation done on this aspect. Everyone seems to gloss over the fact and rely on Intel-written specifics.

This may not be true or it may be. With these new reports, we'll have to see the results to find out. We just need someone with an ASUS board and 8400 to report what the default "stock" clocks are. As they do their MCE on default.

>> No.62860322

Says you.

>> No.62860351

>$Price $182.00 - $187.00
>much cheaper

>you can regularly buy Ryzen 1600 for <$180-190 these days
>1600X goes for <$200
Okay buddy.


>> No.62860364

The problem is the cheapest asus mobo i see is 160 dollars and no one is going to buy that inless stupid for a 8400 and also asus sucks

>> No.62860365

>Says you.
Says anyone with a functional brain
>Find me a non-Z370 mobo for my 8400 please.
I can find mobos on jewegg for >$119, so mobos are available just not any coffee lake cpus over an i3.

>> No.62860380

Asus boards are pretty nice

>> No.62860387

It's just you.

>> No.62860419

Everyone buying 8400 is buying a Z370 motherboard.

The reviewers who buy both for reviewing buys ASUS boards. Its not that people don't buy the boards. That's not the issue.

Its that they skimp over the details and don't do proper reviews.

>> No.62860432

>It's just you.
Then I'm the only one who's being realistic. Last time I checked ashes of the singularity only had 6 maximum players a day, and they where all probably lootubers benching their ayymd rigs.

>> No.62860436

I just want to know if MCE effects the 8400. People hint at that it could but no one has proved it

>> No.62860445

Last one i had died for no reason so i dont trust them

>> No.62860457
File: 19 KB, 250x162, 265F7815-7A44-4416-A832-4E0896116CED.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I thought you were banished to the shadow realm from for being such a turbo retard

>> No.62860459

Also asus is the only one that has it on by default. Does msi have MCE? I cant find any evidence that it does unless it is named something else

>> No.62860479
File: 152 KB, 359x414, .png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.62860485

I figured it out. Its called enhanced turbo for msi

>> No.62860559
File: 512 KB, 663x604, lain-nips-point-and-laugh.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Steam sharts has stats idiot.
aots: 5.8 players average for the last 30 days.
escaltion (sequel to an unpopular game): 128 avgerage for the last 30 days.
These games are only worth benchmarking, because they are pump up amd gaming averages. By the way the games are actually buggy messes that aren't half as fun as zero hour.

>> No.62860584

Wouldn't all this mean Intel is scared as fuck? Since they went to all the trouble to do this jewry and risk getting caught?

So Zen is a real menace then.

>> No.62860605

> souce: Adored Pajeet
Gamers Nexus didn't overclock the 8700K

>> No.62860637

They also ave a video on the 6th explaining why they disabled mce

>> No.62860659

Asus did this, not intel

>> No.62860699

>a game that no one plays

>> No.62860722

I actually liked AotS but the meta got stale.

>> No.62860833


what the fuck is the point of people wanting your shit if they can't actually buy their shit

did intel just play themselves?

>> No.62860877

They are just selling 8400s and z370 boards rn lol. Maybe they can turn a profit on it

>> No.62860899

>da jooz

>> No.62860912

Escalation peaked at 560 players/benchmarkers in a single day. I apologize for not considering them.
>I actually liked AotS but the meta got stale.
Then you might remember the good ol days when all 723 players where on at one time.

>> No.62861090

Why is everyone obsessed with the 8400? 8350k is where its at

>> No.62861220

Benchmarks and the i3 on a z370 rn just isnt a great deal

>> No.62861310


Userbenchmarks puts the 8350 at 99% effective speed?

>> No.62861325

Also newegg has asrock uatx z370 board and i3 8350k bundle at $300. How is that a bad deal?

>> No.62861331

Jay is a good guy, leave him alone

>> No.62861347
File: 77 KB, 960x511, IMG_20171011_151648.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Forgot pic

>> No.62861358


how do you manage to look like this much of a fag in that small of an avatar pic

>> No.62861369

>Do you have an actual argument?

>> No.62861375

Didn't Gamers Nexus make a whole video on the Z370 auto overclocking feature?

>> No.62861379

Because i got my 8400 and my z370 mobo for 10 dollars more

>> No.62861386

fucking shlomos

>> No.62861403

8400s are out of stock and wont stay at a $10 premium when stocks are refilled

>> No.62861416

K well i got mine huehuehue

>> No.62861449

Benchmarks....$10 more for worse gaming performance?? Maybe its early but i forsee the base 4.0ghz clock trumping the 2.8ghz+ turbo down the road when more benchmarks are averaged. Or am i totally wrong?

>> No.62861472

The extra 2 threads are gonna help in newer games

>> No.62861502

>Didn't Gamers Nexus make a whole video on the Z370 auto overclocking feature?
lets not ruin a nice thread with facts

>> No.62861524

Meh. By the time 6 threads is the difference between a game running like shit or not the 8th gen intel cpus will be relics. Im not disagreeing just for the sake of it, i WANT you or someone to give me a viable reason why the 8400 is dominating the 8th gen cpu reviews so far

>> No.62861536

userbenchmarks are absolute garbage

I 100% expect them to change their scoring metrics the moment AMD has a lead in singlethread performance

>> No.62861555

AMD were supposed to be the good guys how can intel release a newer chip and dash their dreams like this

>> No.62861567

Interesting. Recommendation for benchmark comparison site?

>> No.62861604
File: 81 KB, 444x444, 1502143993622.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>cheating in benchmarks

>> No.62861624

I.wouldn't be surprised if multicore turbo oc is disabled for the 8400 in BIOS update just like Intel killed BLCK OC for non k Skylake chips.

>> No.62861629

Intel would never do such a thing. Now what is your response and remember your an official representative of AMD marketing and can be sued for libel

>> No.62861631

I read the Intel spec docs.
Spec max vcc is 1.52 and current 130a. It means the chip can be allowed to use as much as 200w.

The whole 4.7 and 3.7 frequencies are probably marketing gimmick to make unaware users believe the frequency across board is much higher, plus they can't hold the 4.3 GHz on all cores with 95w envelope in all situations.
For overclockers or anyone really running improved turbo, aka all cores @4.7, it's much irrelevant since all cores must be able to hold 4.7ghz since there isn't an elected one, there isn't a preferred core like skx.

About yields, yes I believe Intel probably have some lessened yields but not that bad; the issue is they are basically starting retail production now, so this is the shortage reason. If Intel suddenly starts to sell crapped silicon not fit for 8700k binning, then surely it would damage much more it's own image.
Skx decisions like Tim and reduced pcie lanes are sensible but know. If Intel suddenly starts to ship bad 8700k dies that can't manage to reach reasonable frequencies it would be a very dumb move.

I don't think Intel changed it binning process, but if it does, the damage to image would be colossal, especially with misleading performance.

>> No.62861660

But Ryzen still has the best price-performance ratio in workstation, games on a budget or for mostly value (i5 8400 may have a lead now but the budget MOBOs for it are not here since Covfefe Lake was rushed as fuck), and increased support for upgrades in the CPU lineup of Zen.

The 8700k, i5 8400, and even the i3 8100 are good CPUs in their own categories (well the i3 not that much against Ryzen but the others are alright).
But it makes me think that why buy those chips now since: the MOBOs are the expensive/premium ones ('useless' for i3/i5 since those are value chips most of the time), Zen+ plus might be coming in February or around Covfefe Lake's initial release, and most CPUs are out of stock.

Things look promising for early 2018 with Coffee Lake and Ryzen+, if you need to desperately upgrade right now you would be better off on value with Ryzen OVERALL in a budget and availability, or get an i5 8400 (I wouldn't since things are not so sure about it on cheaper MOBOs and that its a locked chip).
Or if not stick to your system that is capable of running till early 2018.

Ryzen still holds value, but Coffee lake seems to have a lead in gaming; in Zen+ we'll see what AMD does to compete.

>> No.62861705


>> No.62861798

Well, it IS a Z370 stock. Not /stock/ stock, but some form of stock. Not making it better in any way though

>> No.62861805

Yes this became very important since the very high single core frequency now Intel is being able to do.
When Intel turbo was meager on 6700k WTH just 200mhz and mobos auto gone to 4200 on all cores, no one cared. Now that mobos can jump 500mhz on 6 cores amd shills are all screaming.

Everyone using multi core enhancement on last 3 years don't even consider this shit oc since you can usually go much beyond. The butthurt amdrones are feeling is because you can easily hit 4.9 GHz on all cores

>> No.62861991
File: 3.10 MB, 5312x2988, 20171011_180401.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Just came in the mail. Ama

>> No.62862041

who delivered it to you?

>> No.62862054


>> No.62862236

>Adored shill

Pathetic lying AYYMD asskissing shill

AYYMD HOUSEFIRES can't compete with superior power efficient Coffee Lake CPUs

>> No.62862243


based fucking Adored TV

scottish master race

>> No.62862880

Is it about actual correct turbo or is it about the "all cores at single-core turbo" feature which has become a de-facto standard on most mobos?

>> No.62862914

Nice (RenameBeforePostingMeme_354123495G).jpg

>> No.62862991

This all seems like AMD damage control. As these new chips put serious hurt on ryzen.
The biggest argument for ryzen was for workloads and people know they are behind Intel for gaming. But the 8700k doesn't sacrafice gaming or workload performance.

>> No.62862994

are you all retarded, the mobo manufacturers enabled a feature that auto sets all cores to the max turbo instead of the stepped frequencies you should normally get.

4.7 x 6 cores is obviously going to be faster than the 3.7 x 6 core base frequency

most reviewers haven't dealt with this problem before since their "stock" tests were done with them just dropping the cpu onto the mobo and firing up the benchmarks like most people would. not all mother boards had this feature enabled by default though so there were varied scores.

>> No.62863009
File: 53 KB, 613x353, 1449399278367.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

> 8400 on budget mobos will produce worse performance than z370 mobos
>R5 1600 is still the price / perf king even when budget boards come out
>Zen+ right after that
this wasn't worth fucking 7th gen customers

>> No.62863011

Ryzen cant OC for shit. Fake news.

>> No.62863047

How is this shit new? Motherboards have had this feature since Turbo Boost was a thing, I remember running my i5 750 ages ago at max turbo multiplier at all times. How doesn't everyone know about this already?

>> No.62863062

Only a paid shill would have those links saved like that. Tell raja he sucks and Lisa good job for dumping her stock the other day. She knew it was time to cash out.

>> No.62863066
File: 24 KB, 267x297, uma_cry.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


kys joao

>> No.62863111

>price-performance ratio in workstation

this is where AMD retardation shows. Most people who use computers for work don't care about budget solutions.

>> No.62863114

Its different now because Intel clocked their single core chips so high. In the past they would skirt between 4Ghz turbo. Then they increased that to 4.2 then 4.5 and now its 4.7 ghz. When the actual all-core turbo is only 4.3, that's a 10% difference.

>> No.62863160

pros shopping by performance > informed consumers shopping by landed cost > bang for buck rigs > hobo rigs > consumers shopping by "one week only promo deals" > brand loyalists

>> No.62863235

The new CPUs turbo higher, yes. The actual feature is literally the same and we have had it for multiple years in this identical form, and we've essentially had it from the 1st i5/i7 generation too, though it might've had a different name or just presented the higher multiplier straight up.

There's absolutely nothing different in the way these CPUs or mobos are behaving compared to at least Haswell (I can personally attest my Z87 and Z97 mobos have the same feature), if not even earlier. I also have a P55 mobo which essentially does the same shit by letting me apply the higher multi to all cores, that's 1st gen.

>> No.62863416

>absolutely assured


>> No.62863517

You don't love money?

>> No.62863571

t. goldberg

>> No.62863607

whats your all core clock during a cinebench run

>> No.62863617

Turbo Boost is not Multi Core Enhancement

>> No.62864231

do you like the fact that you bought a locked 2.8 ghz cpu in 2017

>> No.62864572

>Locked CPU
>On a platform designed for unlocked CPUs
It's because of compulsive retards like you that we have to put up with Intel anticonsumerist jewery every year. Shove all those components up your ass and kill yourself.

>> No.62864612

my fx-6300's mobo died, i regret nothing this thing is brazing fast compared to that shit

>> No.62864626

Stock cooler has been working great so far, gonna really get it warm when i can get my shit all installed

>> No.62864725

>$500 8700K pre-order

>> No.62864773

Ya some of the YT reveiwers even liked the 8700k better when ran at stock speeds. Jay was like "I put a $150 cooler on this 8700k thinking this was stock and WTF how hot is this cpu it needs more cooling?"

>> No.62865314
File: 1.79 MB, 1431x768, onedown.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Here we go boys, one down.


>> No.62865373

Has anyone confirmed whether the 8400 takes advantage of MCE yet?

>> No.62865415

They disabled taking advantage of that back during haslel, doubt its usable in this generation but i could be wrong

>> No.62865419

Yeah it's unreal that the 8700K is 70 degrees on water at 4.7GHz all core. I know mobo auto-OC features usually overestimate how much voltage is needed and you could get it lower by fine tuning, but damn.

>> No.62865429

never understood the appeal of linus or jay, they're just marketers

>> No.62865455

why doesn't ryzen have mce thingamajigger

>> No.62865463

>adored puts out a quick video just talking for a few minutes
>literally everyone in the industry listens and responds

How did we even get to this point?

>> No.62865479

no h370 boards are available yet faggot

>> No.62865593

>calls anon a faggot
>not being mad at jewtel for being jews

at least Ryzen had cheap boards on release.

>> No.62865633


Most likely it's just maturity. Intel is using a lot of mature technologies and has been working with board manufacturers for years. AMD just finally got it's shit together and while it's clear they're really trying not every part of the ecosystem is completely together yet. Besides just this I know people are having a lot of problems getting RAM to post at the proper speed. I'll probably get a Ryzen 2 or 3 when I finally upgrade this system and by then if AMD is smart enough to have not shat the bed, which I don't know how they would at this point but AMD finds a way, they'll probably be much more up to snuff.

>> No.62865666
File: 39 KB, 770x756, 3066mhz.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>problems getting RAM to post at the proper speed

True, but it's a lot better now. For me it's was either 2933 or 3066.

pic related

>> No.62865686

AvE said it best.

>> No.62865705


Like I said AMD is working their ass off to get this shit up to par. There are just a few areas they lag behind right now. All in all though Ryzen was an amazing play by AMD. Great price, great performance and they made Intel sweat hard in the higher end market which AMD has really never done before. It feels like the early 2000's again when you felt like a kid in a candy store buying PC parts.

>> No.62865741
File: 15 KB, 475x381, 1600xclock.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Intel's been on the same uarch for a while now so both Intel and mobo manufacturers know how to take advantage of it. AMD still has XFR, but they don't have all core turbos anywhere near Intel, you still have to manually overclock everything the old fashioned way.
>1600X is 3.6 at stock
>under 100% load it's 3.7
Really turning up the clocks here AMD. At least you don't need water cooling for Ryzen unless you're pushing 4.0GHz.

>> No.62865744

Where are big tits arms?

>> No.62865920

>people here call this guy a conspiracy theorist
Shills do.
You simply can't call him that after watching his video, he literally reads the info from intel websites in his vids

>> No.62865978

ram model/mobo?

>> No.62866034

Many people are still confuse with Turbo Boost and Multi Core Enhancement.
i5 8400 Turbo Boost is 4.0Ghz on single core and 3.8Ghz on all six cores IF the conditions are met.
Multi Core Enhancement on the other hand is motherboard specific auto overclock which will push the i5 8400 to 4.0Ghz on all cores.

Sadly thing is, Intel shills still denying this where in fact even Jazshill2cent admit it.

>> No.62866187

ASRock Fatal1ty AB350 Gaming K4

CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 3000 CMK16GX4M2B3000C15R

>> No.62866344

No one has actually posted evidence whether or not the 8400 can overclock to 4.0GHz on all cores yet on MCE. The Jayz retest was on the 8700K.

>> No.62866394
File: 91 KB, 938x512, 1506431216082.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Got Fury Nitro for 250 before ether boom

>> No.62866403

He's the prime amd shill. Others must bow to him to get amd shit for free.

>> No.62866413

Ayymd drones are nad not because of enhanced turbo or whatever name each Mobo manufacturer call it; they are mad because the clocks are so high it close the gap even with 1800x with 2 less cores.
Ayymd done great but let's face current ryzen is mature as nehalen was. Even nehalem could overclock more, ayymd is basically take what you can, oc 200mhz, and so, need unicorn memory because of massive latency issues of infinity glue, and so on.

>> No.62866438

All this means is that Intel retards buying the 8400 with stock coolers aren't going to get anywhere near the performance of "reviewed" (shilled) 8400's.

Basically all these "reviewers" (paid shills) ran their "stock" configs with automatic overclocks (and lied about this) and high-end CPU coolers.

Motherboards without the automatic overclocking feature, and CPU's without high-end coolers, are not going to get the same performance as what the "reviewers" (paid shills) such as Gamers Nexus, Linus Tech Tips, and Hardware Canucks, have gotten.

>> No.62866514

I'm assuming you have evidence of the 8400 running at 4GHz all core with MCE enabled, yes? You aren't just screaming "shill" at everyone for supposedly overclocking a nonoverclockable chip without any evidence, would you?

>> No.62866816

AFAIK the only advantage Intel has now is that of higher clocks. Don't get me wrong, it's not a small one, but Intel can't ride on it forever.
Besides, Ryzen is not even close to the beast Epyc is.

>> No.62866855

intel are fucking DESPERATE

>> No.62866881

>reviewers leave MCE on for "stock" benchmarks
Is this even intels fault or are tech reviewers just completely retarded?

>> No.62866919

I'm not sure you can blame Intel for this, yeah it's up to them to give their partners the specs of each board and chipset but they mostly let each board partner do their own thing as long as they don't blow up the CPU. I think the order of blame would be
1. Mobo manufacturers - Anything that raises voltage should ALWAYS be off by default. There's no excuse for making a chip run hotter at stock.
2. Reviewers - They should always be keeping an eye on voltages in HWMonitor while doing benchmarks
3. Intel - not really sure what they could do honestly, however if GN was right and the Asus board was unstable under Blender Intel needs to clamp down on that shit fast. If someone buys an Intel CPU and it crashes they're probably going to blame Intel first so it becomes their problem whether it's their fault or not.

>> No.62866982

Partially, Intel is annoyingly vague on what the behavior of turbo frequency per number of cores under load is supposed to be. That info should be readily available especially to reviewers so they could know when a proc is not behaving as per Intel's specs.

>> No.62867174


>> No.62867206

Thermals are antisemitic.

>> No.62867236


When you hit 80c+ on a 240mm AIO while on an open bed test bench posting that information doesn't look great when the competition can run air cooled.

If taken to the extreme remember you can air cool threadripper but the i9's are nuclear reactors requiring watercooling.

>> No.62867258

>i9's are nuclear reactors
4% of the Sun energy output per meter squared
Never forgetti

>> No.62867260

So, only the I5-8400 is the gimped one?
I3's will be fine and the unlocked ones will be good?

>> No.62867280

Unlocked i3s won't be good, but the 8600K and 8700K will get better once they're in stock.

>> No.62867305
File: 28 KB, 723x438, disabled[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

[whining sounds in an inaudibly thick Scottish accent]

>> No.62867397

>comparing it to 1500x when 1600x seems like a better comparison

It's not. The i5-8400 is priced at 1900 SEK vs the 1500X priced at 1800 SEK.

The 1600X is priced at 2400 SEK so that would be more fairly compared to the i5-8600K at 2600 SEK.

Your countries prices will obviously vary but just comparing the price of the CPU it's the 1500X and not the 1600X that goes up against the i5-8400.

The 1600 is priced at 2200 SEK. The difference isn't that huge but if you keep going on the notion that the next step up isn't that much more expensive then you might as well get the 1800X.

>i5 8400 much cheaper
No, it's not. I'm not sure who you're trying to fool or convince here beyond yourself. It's not like Intel's giving us amazing deals and incredible bang for the buck here. But they have managed to put something that's marginally better than AMDs offerings at ever single price-point. And that's great, specially if AMD manages to somehow respond. And they will have to or they will be bankrupt and finished, there's really no reason to go buy a Ryzen now that Intel has put something marginally better at every price-point on the table. I'm not sure they can or will slash prices so the 1600X would become the alternative to a i5-8400, for example.

>> No.62867436
File: 35 KB, 615x568, a348f5eb_ocperf.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Look at the scores between MSI and ASUS mobo. Seems like all Asus Z370 mobo is MCE on by default thus the higher scores.

>> No.62867442

>mfw got one for 600CHF because Digitec fucked up their price listing

>> No.62867455

>And that's great, specially if AMD manages to somehow respond.
Ryzen 12LP, which was said to be released a month or two after coffee lake stocks build up.
>And they will have to or they will be bankrupt and finished
Actually you're thinking of Intel and their response to Epyc

>> No.62867973

delid this thread.

>> No.62868045

All-core turbo frequencies are the proprietary information of Intel® and attempting to divine our confidential metrics is a grave violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, U.S. Trade Law and a despicable act of Anti-Semitic blood libel. Intel® has only the highest standards of quality assurance and that should be more than enough for our customers. Please delid this thread immediately.

>> No.62868061

Needs more RGB

>> No.62868063

No one cares about the lies of Adored shill

Coffee Lake destroys Rypoo garbage in performance and that's all that matters

>> No.62868068
File: 91 KB, 817x653, ,.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.62868075


>> No.62868077

Thanks. Bought an i5-8400

>> No.62868078


>> No.62868150

Nehalem could OC a lot, you could get i7s which ran at 2.66GHz to 3.8-4GHz, it was amazing.

>> No.62869260
File: 9 KB, 156x200, file.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.62869282
File: 6 KB, 356x271, 1507637820914.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>kiketell gets caught lying pants down
>absolutely everything pointing to a paper/ghost launch
>lets not ignore how hard they shafted their people with a socket change just to solve a personal grudge with AMD
>there are still, after all this, people who are defending them
It's either you got paid or you are deep in the cuckold fetish, lowlife turds.

>> No.62869476
File: 944 KB, 1228x1502, 1507783756209.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>no one cares
hope intel is lubbing your asshole before they charge in atleast

>> No.62869581

The difference between bdie and generic hynix, for example, memory are much lower than difference between H or B board and good Z board.

>> No.62870202
File: 232 KB, 800x449, intel ceo yells at clouds.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.62870354
File: 377 KB, 1233x1094, 1426826183224 .png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>intel sells overpriced garbage
>gets exposed scheming buyers
>shafts its own customers
>to-date still uses the worst TIM that was ever used on a CPU instead of soldering their overpriced 380$ garbage like a proper CPU manufacturer should and have done this for 4 generations because they realise how numb and subservient their shills are
>"but the amdfags are the ones convincing themselves they did the right choice not me :I"

>> No.62870446

He incorrectly relates TDP to W, explaining that theres no way the i5-8400 is going to run on B/H series motherboards with all 6 cores at Intel's Turbo Clock speed of 3.8GHz. There's no reason why it could, assuming you had a beefier CPU cooler. Just keep in mind the i7-7800x 6c/12 is rated for 3.5GHz/4GHz turbo and has a TDP rating of 140w. The only reason Intel can give the i5-8400 a TDP rating of 65w is because they made the base clock 2.8GHz. Extrapolate from there, that's his main point of this overly long video.

>> No.62870740

And intel provides better performance all the same. So much for all your little delusional conspiracies from AdoredAMDShill lmao.

>> No.62870760

>omg mom I'm in the middle of disproving 8350 benchmarks from Logan

Ah yes, Logan, the guy that put up a video showing that the 8150 totally had better performance than the 2500k in fucking Arma 2 of all things.

This image is quite hilarious, specially when you pay attention to the AMD pajeet trying to sell the bulldozer/vishera garbage. That really sums up everything.

>> No.62870994

Is Bulldozer shilling ironic or what? It's only redeeming value is paving the way for Zen's modular design.

>> No.62871022

I think it is, I don't like Intel but saying Bulldozer is anything but a trainwreck is delusion

>> No.62871318

A lot of people got tricked into buying bulldozer because much cores. Most of those people try to backwards rationalize their mistake. It's a phenomina

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