Metalwork

[Anonymous No.614023]

The other night I watched this pbs nova documentary about these high-quality Viking swords that have been found. They're made of high quality crucible steel, and also 800 years older than any steel of the same quality in Europe.
http://youtu.be/nXbLyVpWsVM
Worth a look. This guy is an amazing craftsman. I have long wanted to get into this sort of forging, etc but I don't know where to begin. What does /diy/ think is a good way to get started.

tl;dr How do I into smithing? Assume modest general skills and resources.

[Anonymous No.614029]

I would note that 90% of the actual content in that documentary is, to put no fine a point on it, sensationalist bullshit.
(and yes, I do talk with Dr Alan Williams occasionally, and I have handled a number of Ulthbhert and Ingelrii swords.) Of 44 such marked swords he studied, only 9 (and possibly a 10th) are crucible steel. While they are remarkable, they are not better than anything in the next 800 years; the advent of the overshot waterwheel meant the rise in the use of more homogeneous steels in the 10th C (one of the reasons that the pattern-welded viking sword died out), and the rise of the Ingelrii swords matched them in performance.
The documentary really is over-sensationalist nonsense, sadly.


where to get started? start small, learn knifemaking, make a little knife. probably by using a file and a hacksaw on a flat bar of o1 steel, heat it with a blowtorch till its glowing yellow, and dunk it into oil, then put it in an oven at 250C for half an hour to temper it.

Trying to do what Ric does, smelting the steel, forging, foregework etc? dont even think of it just now. Its akin to saying "I want to race in the le mans 24hrs, *and* build my own car. I've got an empty garage right now, what do I do?" - so start small, and learn the basics, or it'll simply swamp you.

[Anonymous No.614046]

>>614029
>akin to saying "I want to race in the le mans 24hrs, *and* build my own car. I've got an empty garage right now, what do I do?"
Nice analogy.

And thanks for that summatin of the Nova ep.

+10 to ju.

[Anonymous No.614048]

>>614046
If you really want to go down the route of becoming a historic sword-smith, rather than as a generic craftsman, I could go into details, but it's a loooooooong reply.
Would that, or a more generic summary of what you need for general smithing be more use to people?

[Anonymous No.614051]

>>614023
find a stable workspace, eg you're not gonna have to move it in a couple months, no one will get mad at you for taking up space

Save towards getting an anvil.

Actually, no before you do anything, you can start researching what makes quality steel, and GO OUT AND LOOK FOR SCRAP METAL. Railroads are a good place to look for, as well as places near water or the ocean as iron that rusts will generally just get tossed to the side regardless of if there's still good iron in there. While you're looking for scrap metal to work with, you might as well look for an anvil too. You can find all sorts of things like railroad tracks, forklift tongs, even axe heads can work as a beginner. Normally though the main challenge of these diy anvils is mounting them. Most people go for a stump, and attach it in a variety of ways, but it really just has to be something that can take lots of impact and wont slide around or settle into the ground. And then of course if you don't already make sure you have a decent hammer.

And now you're gonna have to save again for a forge this time, if you spent any money on the earlier half of it. You can get pretty cheap with this, there are different types of forges. Really if you're looking for your first project and just to play around you can do just fine with coal or charcoal in an outdoor fireplace. Mainly why people use more high tech forges is because they're more efficient, which really just means you don't have to buy as much coal/charcoal.

I'll come back with some more links, use leddit for now http://www.reddit.com/r/Blacksmith/wiki/faq

[Anonymous No.614066]

>>614048
Not OP. Thanks for the offer tho!

[Anonymous No.614102]

>>614048
Op here... maybe just the first few steps
Thanks for the reply
>>614051
i am about to move. at my new house, there's a 20x40 shop out back. i am so excited to have my own workspace. working out of the garage in my current house sucks...
where to find a real anvil (i'm aware of ASO's)

[Anonymous No.614104]

I saw that documentary. I heard years ago that the vikings got their iron from a large meteorite. That show never mentioned the meteorite. But you must admit, having a sword from the stars would be awesome!

[Anonymous No.614106]

>>614104
No, they got some/most of their iron from the bottom of lakes.

[Anonymous No.614114]

>>614106
Reminds me of The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

[Anonymous No.614142]

Maybe the Cape York meteorite is too high in nickel. Maybe the Vikings didn't know about it in Greenland.

[Anonymous No.614173]

>>614102
Use a piece of railroad track

[Anonymous No.614244]

>>614051
> using scrap
It's like you want OP to fail. Scraps are okay for practice but anything high performance you want to make out of known steel. And shit tons of mild steel for practice/non-tool blacksmithing stuff is cheap as shit in bulk anyways

[Anonymous No.614247]

>>614244
If you can identify something like an axle it will make a perfectly serviceable knife or sword. I've made tons of hatchets and punches out of the stuff.
Blacksmithing is a very imprecise art, there is a lot of wiggle room. .20 points of carbon either way isn't that big a deal.

[Anonymous No.614249]

I've been working with a lot of Silicon Bronze (1/2") lately but when I work it to about 1/8" it starts to split and delaminate.

What am I doing wrong?

[Anonymous No.614282]

>>614029
Damn. I knew this was a Peter Johnsson sword even before I read the file name.

Best swordsmith alive.

[Anonymous No.614364]

I make blades for 7 years now.

And I was raging all the time on what nonsense was sprouted on this "documentary".

I watched it in German and it was even worse this way. When I listened to the smith he said correct stuff and was a great craftsman. But they did not even translate exactly what he said, but made up bullshit and twisted what he said until it was all completely wrong.

[Anonymous No.614370]

>>614282
Peter's a spectacular smith, and a lovely chap too, but he's also absurdly modest, and would be the first to say there are other smiths out there who're no less talented. Patrick Barta's a match when it comes to pattern-welded, inlaid viking, saxon or frankish swords covered in previous metals.

[Anonymous No.614372]

>>614364

Do you do it for a living or a hobby? Care to share any of your work?

[Anonymous No.614389]

>>614370
Oh man, I wish you hadn't posted that. I am so full of lust right now...

[Anonymous No.614402]

>>614389
there's no such thing as too much lust. have another.

I really need to get my hands on wrought iron for doing the cores of these silver-inlaid viking hilts. No way I'm good enough to do the patternwelded blades though.

[Anonymous No.614404]

One of my dreams is to forge my own sword.
I don't want a sword made in a factory, or by a famous sword-smith. I want to point at my sword and said with pride that I forget it with my own hands.

[Anonymous No.614415]

>>614404
remember, that historically, the vast majority of swords were not made by one person. the conan-esque lone blacksmith is a complete fallacy.

blades were mass-produced in places like Passau and Solingen, shipped around europe by river, and then hilted in the local fashion by cutlers.

So I would argue that if you buy a blank blade, particularly if you then hone and shape the last details yourself, then you're doing exactly what they did back then too.

[Anonymous No.614451]

>>614415
Hey! I've handled the original that repro is made to emulate! It was at a reenactment, and there was a master scholar (in terms of medieval weaponry/armor) who had a handful of exquisite swords on lease from a museum in Europe.

The sword your pic is a repro of had cast bronze fittings, which were done by hand. The entire thing had pretty poor balance, steel that would be considered too soft by today's standards, and a ton of handmade imperfections all over. It looked like, if it were new, it would have been churned out in some cheapo Chinese factory, but the guy told me that it was a sword that was fit for a prince and would have cost thirty head of cattle to commission.

Small world. Very cool.

[Anonymous No.614488]

>>614451
I expect that'll probably have been Bob, or maybe Thom, as they're the senior curators at the RA. Middle-aged guy with short grey hair and a grey-white beard, glasses, probably wearing shorts, or a younger one with dark wavy hair and a short dark beard? Bob's the edged weapons specialist, Thom's more an armour specialist.

I've handled it in person as well, Royal Armouries IX.949 is its actual catalogue number (written in orange-red paint up by the cross, you might recall.).
Its a wonderful example of what people assume a sword should be like, and what the reality is - those casting faults in the bronze would be roundly condemned by any customer today, the blade's not got a straight line on it, it wobbles all over the place - see the pic for that. But as said, was good enough for a prince.
its actually something I dislike about Albion swords. they're very, very good swords. but they're shit medieval swords, because they're far too consistent, too modern. they're produced for what people think a medieval sword would be like, but they're no different to an Iphone or a machine-made object really. That, in my mind, is a big failing, as you dont capture the real feeling of the work, that way.

[Anonymous No.614494]

http://imgur.com/a/Vr4UD?gallery

Here you go OP. I'm starting out with this too. It's pretty helpful.

[Anonymous No.614506]

>>614494

I want to make some charcoal like this guy, but I live in a neighbourhood and I'm pretty sure someone will call the cops. However, my neighbours will always have a fire barrel going, so I could probably get away with it. WHO KNOWS!

I have an almost endless supply of wood from a friend of the family, and this could work.

[Anonymous No.614588]

>>614488
>Middle-aged guy with short grey hair and a grey-white beard, glasses, probably wearing shorts

Yes, that was him! He was very friendly and easy-going, and let anyone handle the weapons (if they were respectful, adult, and wore the white gloves).

Yeah, that's the very sword I handled. I don't remember markings on it, I was too enamored by the whole thing thinking of it from a craftsman's perspective (I've forged some knives and cast some brass coins; I can't even imagine making that sword).

Honestly, if you could hand an Albion to a king in those days, he'd probably give you half his kingdom.

[Anonymous No.614643]

I have a sword I forged from tool steel (a crowbar) that needs to be tempered in an oven. If it fits flat, would my kitchen's oven be okay, and what degree should I temper it to and for how long?

[Anonymous No.614675]

>>614643
no idea. what "tool steel" was the crowbar? D2? W1? O1? 1095? 1035? 1020 with a high carbon insert on the end?

you have no way of knowing. it could be one, could be another. Making any blade from scrap metal is a roulette wheel. you might land on black, you might land on red. if you're lucky, you get it spot on.

In your shoes, if you must keep it, I'd do an oil-quench at about 1552 farenheit / 850C , to a pre-heated oil.

I'd then put in at 527 farenheit/ 270C to soak for at least an hour, to a peacock blue.

you might get a slack quench, and be soft, but its less likely to fuck up that way.

and next time, dont be a fucking miser, and go and buy a bar of 1080, AISI 5160, EN45, or something that you actually know the composition of, instead of potentially polishing a turd, all for a saving of £20 at the start.

[Anonymous No.614748]

>>614675
It's 01, I did a spark test. I did pre-heat the quench with a fe pieces of scrap before I quenched.

525, beautiful

>miser
I don't want to go to the post office to fill out a money order to order $30 in material, but my last few projects, I just ordered material.

[Anonymous No.614850]

>>614643
You can temper it with a small propane torch if you want. It's what I use for axes and knives, I like the blade being as hard as it can be while the back being soft.

[Anonymous No.615015]

>>614850
Torches are good for small projects, but tool steel reacts better if it's all tempered at the same exact temperature.

[Anonymous No.615105]

>>614372

Only as a hobby. I actually have posted my stuff from time to time.
Due to it only being a hobby, I have of course not made nearly as much stuff as somebody who does it fulltime, but if were quite a few. And I know the theory behind heat treating and so on.

That is why, especially in German, the show sucked big time. Seriously. If this is what "documentaries" are like, I have to realize that I am being told bullshit all the time, but most of the time I will not know it because I do not know the specific subject.

[Anonymous No.615406]

>>614494
OP here. Thanks for this link. EPIC

[Anonymous No.615864]

>>615406
Where do you go to get a good used anvil?

[Anonymous No.616212]

I suppose this is as good a place to ask instead of making my own thread:

I have a brakedrum forge that I've built a removable steel cylinder with a lid on it and I have had success melting aluminum in it using charcoal. I burned through both my test crucibles, an empty campstove propane tank, and a coffee can and ended up buying a graphite crucible for 50 bucks.

We ended up trying this because my brother wants to cast an aluminum shift nob for his new car. I basically have no idea how to go about this. We can melt the aluminum and can successfully pour, but how do I make a mold? I was considering doing investment casting and maybe getting my friend to model and print a shift nob with his 3d printer, then making a silicone mold and and filling it up with wax...

I guess my question is where can I get cheap silicone mold supplies, and what are good ways to make a master for the mold?

[Anonymous No.616307]

>>615864
not the guy you were talking to but

http://www.harborfreight.com/55-lb-rugged-cast-iron-anvil-69161.html

or try asking around farms, sometimes they will have old out buildings with blacksmithing tools from when people actually had to do that stuff

another thing to try is a short piece of I beam

[Anonymous No.616416]

>>616307
That anvil will work in a pinch, but those cast iron ones suck.

Shitty rebound and generally worse quality. The things make a thud and don't have the ring they should have. Having solid rebound especially when you're working with thick ass steel 3/4 inch for example helps a lot. I was trying to make a knife out of some 3/4 stock I had lying around with a 3 lb hammer and it was a shitload of work, I can only imagine how bad it would be if I wasn't getting at least a little help from the anvil.