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/diy/ - Do It Yourself

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File: 62 KB, 939x505, dryer chango.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
165559 No.165559 [Reply] [Original]

what i have is on the left, you'll note it was a nema 5-60 outlet. the cord i have on my dryer is in the middle there. and the outlet i bought to replace it is on the right.
you'll note the 5-60 currently hooked up only has the 3 wires...
how do i go about adding a neutral? do i really need to? is there was way around it?

>> No.165561

Looks to me like you are ungrounded. The white wire should be the neutral.

>> No.165570

dude it's like this, i've seen dryers that had that green neutral wire attached to the metal frame of the dryer.

Basically you've got 2 hots, a ground and a neutral. the reason for the neutral is because the ground often has constant amperage on it from appliances in the rest of the house and you don't want a charge to build up, but it should be reasonably safe without it.

I mean for a long time, nobody even used neutrals or grounds. (and a lot of houses burnt down and people electrocuted, but anyway...)

>> No.165573

>>165570
after posting this i imagined op electrocuting himself so i'll give you the straight skinny. if you want a real neutral, run that thing straight into an iron spike buried at least a foot or two into the ground all by itself.

all it is supposed to be is a ground in case the normal ground has amperage on it and your appliance is building up a charge that will shock you when you touch it.

>> No.165574
File: 1.65 MB, 1872x1224, 2006_NEMA_Chart_Countermat_101107.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
165574

Also that's a nema 14-30R

>> No.165587

>>165573
> if you want a real neutral, run that thing straight into an iron spike buried at least a foot or two into the ground all by itself.

I hope you mean true ground. Not neutral.
Your neutral should run back to the breaker box and terminate there.
Your ground should be as stated ran to a grounding spike (not attached to the cold water pipes as most like to do).

I have a question OP, why not just change the cord on the dryer to a 3 wire to match your receptacle?

>> No.165594

>>165587
>>165559
i could have changed the cord, but it's not a common dryer cord type so a whole cord would be hard to find.
i figured changing the outlet would be cheaper and end the end atleast LOOK like it was the right thing

>> No.165596

could you post a pic of the face of the old outlet, not just the back of it?

>> No.165598

>>165594
Aye, please post a pic of the faceplate for the orig recept. It may help us to keep this simple for you. :)

>> No.165601
File: 114 KB, 640x480, DSCF4526.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
165601

>>165596
sure!

>> No.165606

OP time to call the electrician

>> No.165609

>>165587
right, the neutral it runs into the ground panel in the breaker box doesn't it? I've always heard that a neutral is simply an extra ground since the ground is sometimes relatively live. like coming into my house there are 4 wires running into my breaker box 2 hots and basically 2 grounds (ground and a neutral)

I have an older house, but when i put in a dryer i had to run the wiring for it (first 240v appliance in the house), and that's what it looked like to me.

>> No.165617

>>165601
We have a problem here. That 6-50 outlet should be wired for hot+neutral+ground, however there is a white wire on the ground terminal. Normally ground is green or bare copper. I have no way of telling if the white wire is being used as a ground or as a neutral, or if the black and red are really indeed both hot legs.

Your new 14-30 outlet wants 2hots+neutral+ground.

I'd say you need to get a meter and find out what the voltage is between red/black, red/white, black/white.

>> No.165627

whew, OP...you got a bit of a mess on your hands...

BUT..you can still get through this.

That plug is a 50amp circuit. I would suggest changing out the breaker for that circuit to a 30-40amp dryer breaker and install a 3 wire dryer receptacle and change the cord on your dryer to a 3wire std cord.

If you want to stick with the 4wire cord you will need to pull another wire for the ground, and I would STILL recommend changing out the breaker if its a 50amp or higher.
Most dryers will use 30amps. You can get away with a 40amp, but when you go higher the breaker is now no longer the breaking point.
Meaning if you have a problem within the machine you want the breaker to trip before it damages something. With too large a breaker it may not trip and will continue to power the dryer when it shouldnt.

>> No.165641

I would expect the white wire on the left picture is the neutral. And the ground would be expected to in the box.

take a meter and check for continuity between the white lead and the metal flange behind the outlet.

I would expect that the line bringing power to that box is inside conduit (solid or flex type)
and that the ground is brought via the conduit.
In that case just take a short jumper wire attach to the new outlet and to the inside of the electrical box

>> No.165660

You don't REALLY need a ground, I just hooked up a 3-phase motor like last week without one.

If something electric malfunctions in your appliance, there's electricity in parts there shouldn't be. That can cause shit to burn, or turn your dryer/toaster/blender into a big hot wire that's gonna go right through you if you touch it. The ground is just to touch all the metal in your appliance or circuit box. If there's a ground, the electricity will prefer to travel through that instead of through you.

>> No.165678

>>165587
dont the neutral and ground wires connect in the panel?

>> No.165679

You should just call an electrician OP.

I know this is DIY and all, but you shouldn't be fucking with your home wiring if you don't know what you're doing.

That's my opinion as an electrician anyway.

>> No.165680

>>165678

The neutral has to make it back to the panel. There are other ways to ground something without running back to the panel though.

Cold water lines, for example. Or a ground spike even. Though the spike isn't very practical unless there is already one in place nearby.

>> No.165685

>>165680
true...so the easiest way for op would be to just use one of these badboys and run the wire into his outlet box

id probably just leave it ungrounded lol

>> No.165686
File: 93 KB, 1024x768, Ground-clamp.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
165686

>>165685
forgot to pic

>> No.165688

I'm not a certified electrician or anything, but i had to wire up my house for 240v with the help of one, and as far as i understand it, the difference between ground wire and neutral wire is that the ground presumably connects to all the other grounded outlets in the house, and eventually to the breaker box ground panel. the fact that they run to the other outlets causes the ground to often have a constant amperage despite being a ground.

a neutral on the other hand, goes directly from the appliance to the breaker box grounding panel (or sometimes a separate neutral panel in the box which goes outside on its own grounded neutral wire) so there is no chance that there's current on it from somewhere else. usually you only have a neutral on 240v appliances.

Effectively, to my understanding, a neutral wire is simply supposed to be a dedicated ground.

>> No.165690

Check if your outlet's electrical box is grounded. If the box is metal, there should be a forth (green or bare) wire going into the box, that is attached to the box itself. If there is, attach that wire to the fourth connector of the new outlet, in addition to the box (use a wire nut if you need to).

>> No.165913

>>165688

that's sort of right... in the US at least ground and neutral are connected together at the main breaker box (along with a spike driven into the actual earth). The difference between them is that neutral carries the return current and the ground is dedicated to being a safety ground, it's not supposed to carry current unless something's gone wrong. If the neutral is carrying a lot of current (which is normal, that's its job) then it might be at some voltage because of resistive drop.

if there's no ground wire then >>165641 is probably right and the earth ground is via the conduit

>> No.166072
File: 191 KB, 729x720, NEMA_simplified_pins.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
166072

You guys are just about all wrong. Check your diagrams again.

His original outlet is NOT ungrounded, it is a hot-hot-ground variety rather than a hot-hot-neutral. It is neutral that is missing.

However, you can still swap ground and neutral without any danger to the device, or simply jumper them together. They're tied together in the breaker box anyway.

Run a short stub of wire between the neutral and ground screws on the new outlet. Hook your old ground wire to either one. Problem solved..

>> No.166215

>>166072
In America, the ONLY place where neutral and ground are to be bonded is in the service disconnect.

While OP is using that 6-50 as a hot-hot-ground, there is a white wire on the ground

>> No.166223

>>166072
>You guys are just about all wrong. Check your diagrams again.

When did he post a diagram of his wiring? He posted a picture, but can you really go by what is pictured to give an accurate depiction of what he has? If OP is trying to /diy/ this I would assume the area he lives in leans this way, which would mean the previous owner may have been a /diy/er and there is no telling how that plug is wired from the breaker box.

>> No.166226

As a journeyman wireman in the IBEW, I would like to say you people are dangerous.

>> No.166326

>>166226
That's why I told OP to get a real electrician in there. There are just too many things that are possibly wrong with the entire set up. It scares me.

>> No.166353

Is OP dead yet?

>> No.166458

>>166223
I meant compare the pictures of the original outlet (which he posted in both this, and a previous thread) to the diagrams of a Nema 6-50 pinout posted by everyone.

IF the house was wired correctly when OP took possession of it, those 3 wires are:
Black: hot
Red: hot
White: ground

Neutral not present.

The wire colors are nonstandard, though. Traditionally, the ground should be bare or green. Traditionally, white should be neutral.

There's a possibility that it was originally wired as a 10-30 (hot-hot-neutral, ground not present, common 3-wire dryer plug), and a previous occupant simply swapped the outlet so they could plug in a welder or some other device with a 6-50 plug, using neutral for their ground.

The only way to be absolutely sure is to open up the breaker box and see what the other end of that white wire is connected to.

>>166215
Nevertheless, it is not uncommon to find this in older American houses.

>> No.166465

>>166458
And he still needs to size down his breaker. A 50 amp breaker on a 30 amp receptacle is also bad.

>> No.166467

>>166465
I believe in the first thread he mentioned it was on a 30a breaker. It's 404'd since, so I can't check.

>> No.166497

Driers don't always require a ground. Mine, in fact, only uses hot-hot-neutral.
What you have there on the original outlet is red, black, and white. If the standards for color-coding were used there, you have hot-hot-neutral. Red and black are hots, white is neutral.
Since it seems to be of debate in this thread, the function of ground it NEVER to carry current. It's there for safety. The neutral is what serves as the return path for both hots. I.E, the load is always connected between hot and neutral, and ground connects to the metal chassis of the appliance so that in case of a short, you don't end up with a hot chassis that can shock someone. Current in the ground wire can also activate a GFCI. Neutral is always insulated, and if properly wired, always white. Ground wires are either green, or have no insulation at all. So even though neutral and ground are tied together at the meter, don't go thinking you can swap them around.
Now, there's the matter of that receptacle. It seems to be wired as a hot-hot neutral, which is incorrect. Of course, if whoever wired it didn't give a shit about color coding, it could be hot-neutral-ground. That new one you bought is a hot-hot-neutral-ground.
There's also the matter of you asking for wiring advice on 4chan. Call an electrician or ask this question on a forum specializing in this sort of thing.

>> No.166549

>>166497
Most found in the wild are like yours. Grounding outlets for dryers are a relatively new thing.

Most of the dryers made in the last century have the body of the drier wired to neutral, and their 120v accessories actively use that same neutral. It's totally fucked up, and no one builds dryers that way any more, but ... it works, and it's proven pretty damn safe.

The only time it's an issue is if the neutral lead fails, the drier is turned on, and a human touching it is grounded. In that case you get a 120vac shock, which is totally not fun. But AFAIK, no dryer has ever killed a person in that fashion.

>> No.166552

>>166226
thats cool but you still arent educated enough to help him. go ask your foreman at work tomorrow how to fix it. oh and have fun pulling mc all day

>> No.166566

>>166549
im sure someone has been killed, otherwise ground wouldn't have become code.

>> No.166584

As a UK based electrician...

I just thought the way you grade cable was retarded but this and this thread.......I'm totally lost.....and not just because 2 live and 1 neutral may as well of been done as 3 phase in the first place

>> No.166607

>>166584

For households and other small loads, we use a center-tapped transformer to give us split-phase 240 - two opposing 120s and a neutral. Most household devices use the 120, but large appliances both 120s to get 240.

But that's in households. Large commercial installations typically get 3-phase. It's common enough that most 240v household equipment supports being hooked up to a 208v hot-hot-neutral hookup on 3-phase power, and a lot of equipment is specifically built assuming 2-wire 208v.

>>166566
It's the difference between being effectively grounded and explicitly grounded. One is safe. The other is lawsuit proof.

That said, it's totally possible to imagine an elderly person with a weak heart dying from this type of shock, even at the low amperage. I can totally see the potential for harm there, but I don't think it's happened yet in the wild.

>> No.166610

>>166584
The dryer contains both 240v and 120v components. The heating element is definitely 240v. The timer knob, relays, and lighting is definitely 120v. The motor could be either.

For the 240v devices they use hot-hot, for 120v hot-neutral. Can't do that on 3 wire 3 phase - your only options are 208v and 240v.

>> No.166612

>>166607
>>166610

Ah that makes sense now

>> No.166625

>>166612
It also allows us to pull off totally awesome tricks, like wiring to two separate 120v20a circuits (like to an outbuilding)with only one run of hot-hot-neutral-ground. Since the hots are opposing, the neutral will never go over 20a, and when the two 120v circuits are maxed out there is no load at all on the neutral.

Of course, you have to use a common trip breaker. And wire is cheap enough people generally just lay two runs of hot-neutral-ground anyway. BUT YOU CAN.