/diy/ - Do It Yourself

[Anonymous No.1582455]

I like big boats but I'm allergic to spending money.

Anyone got experience with projects like this? I have no skills, and I anticipate I will need to
>learn about industrial diesel engines
>learn about transmission and props
>learn about how to wire electronics up
>learn how to paint
>learn cabinetry/carpentry

Pro tips on all of the above welcome, but I don't actually own anything yet so I'm just after general stories/advice about undertaking a project like this before I decide to go ahead.

To be clear I do have money, so "oh shit you need to replace both engines because they're fucked" isn't an insurmountable obstacle to me, but I just don't want to spend it if I don't have to.

[Anonymous No.1582464]

>>1582455
>but I'm allergic to spending money.
Then do not buy a boat, especially a fixer upper with a fuel economy that makes a full sized pickup look like a moped.

If you really want to do this go through and calculate the yearly expenses, slip fees, launch fees, winter storage, fuel, upkeep, etc.

[Anonymous No.1582471]

>>1582464
>Then do not buy a boat
A boat fits into my budget because I live fairly frugally, but yes I'm aware of the inherent retardation of trying to do boating on the cheap.

I'm operating off the assumption that yearly servicing/maintenance will be about $10,000. If I can get dry rack storage for it (iffy based on the length I end up getting) it would be less.

I should have clarified that a primary motivation for me wanting to do this is to actually develop my mechanical and practical aptitude. Getting things done cheaply is just a nice bonus.

To provide some context, a modern boat the size of OP pic in new condition would be about $400,000. That one is for sale for $35,000 (without engines). So I could spend a fortune on it and still come out ahead.

[Anonymous No.1582472]

>>1582471
Second hand but good condition boats in the 45' length go from between 100k-300k depending on particulars, I should say.

[Anonymous No.1582473]

>>1582464
Forgot to say, fuel prices at the marina are generally twice of what you pay at the pump, sometimes even more especially for dissel which is often a higher quality since many boats use it for cooking and heating as well. You likely will not be hauling in your own fuel for a boat of that size, dragging it in with 5 gallon jerry cans will get old quick and they are unlikely to allow people to wheel in fuel by the drum for safety and environmemtal reasons. Marina is responsible for the cleanup of things like fuel spills and they do not want to deal with sueing every penny pincher renting a slip that drops a 50 gallon drum off the dock while trying to refuel their boat.

[Anonymous No.1582474]

>>1582473
>$4500 to fill up
>only get 600 miles out of it
ouch my wallet

[Anonymous No.1582477]

>>1582471
Ah, most who say such things have no clue. 10k would be on the cheap side for a boat of that size, but it depends on your location, slip fees can get quite expensive at 45 feet.

If you want to save money i would look into a motor sailer, they generally have more efficent hull shapes which means even when the wind can not help you your fuel consumption will be less and most of the time you will be able to have a sail or two up to assist the motor along, occasionally the wind is all you will need. They have the added bonus that as rule both sailboat and motor boat sorts tend to find them ugly as sin so are often cheaper.

[Anonymous No.1582489]

>>1582477
>depends on your location
Brisvegas, naturally.

>10k would be on the cheap side for a boat of that size, but it depends on your location, slip fees can get quite expensive at 45 feet.
What do you think would be realistic? I was budgeting ~6k for marina/racking (depends on location, as you said, but I know at least one marina that will do 45' for 6k), 3-4k for engines, and 1k for antifoul and other shit, but the only things I know about boats I learned from my dad's tinny so I'm kinda out my depth here.

While I was working on the boat to get it into condition I'd put it on a hardstand at my parent's place and set up a marquee to keep the weather off.

[Anonymous No.1582492]

>>1582471
>To provide some context, a modern boat the size of OP pic in new condition would be about $400,000. That one is for sale for $35,000 (without engines). So I could spend a fortune on it and still come out ahead.
Here's a little tip: the prices you see people asking for things online are generally the prices people don't buy at. That's why those ads remain up and you see them because they've remained up. Significantly decrease your expectations of making money off of this, especially because the hull is usually the money pit. You can just buy a marinised engine easy enough, and the cheap but decent ones of those are repurposed car engines which can be pretty damn cheap.

That said it's also not hopeless or pointless to do, you might make some money, but be aware the hull likely needs a lot of expensive work to put right and selling it is likely going to be a massive pita.

[Anonymous No.1582499]

>>1582492
>Here's a little tip: the prices you see people asking for things online are generally the prices people don't buy at.
Good tip. I'll keep that in mind.

As I said I'm not actually looking for things to buy at this stage, I'm still formulating the plan, but yes I do intend to do some shopping around to get a good deal.

I guess my specific question is the pros and cons of buying a fixer upper boat vs spending a bit more to get one that just werks. I kinda wanta do some work but I'm just wondering if mucking around with diesel engines and transmissions and electronics and etc. etc. is biting off way more than anyone could reasonably handle.

[Anonymous No.1582513]

>>1582455
I like big boats and I cannot lie
You other captains can't deny
When a yacht floats by with an itty bitty boom but a mizzen mast in her poop deck
You say AHOY
Want to float that buoy
See'n as you reckoned that hold was well-ballasted
Even the figurehead she's bearing. Ye've got two patches but ye can't stop staring
...

[Anonymous No.1582534]

Well I don’t have experience in something of that size, but I have rebuilt a 1960 10 foot john boat from scratch. I know this is pretty small compared to what you are talking about, but you should know I spent about 80 hours making this working on it a little bit every day after work. The sandblasting took me the longest because I only had a spot blaster and a 30 gallon compressor. I can’t imagine a boat that size, that would be years in the making. That being said, I did come out ahead. The boat was free and I spent $150 sandblasting, priming, painting, and rebuilding the transom which made the shell fully rebuilt. If I was to buy the shell new it would have cost me $600. I put another $500 or so into the plywood floors, seats, carpet, glue, staples, lights, wiring, switches, custom electrical box, cup holders, cleats, ruler for measuring fish, fishing rod holders, depth finder, etc. I’m proud of my work and I can probably sell this for about what I paid to make it so I’m not losing any money, but just know rebuilding any boat is a ton of work. For me it was a labor of love, and now I get to go fishing or take the waifu and doggo to the lake any time I want. One final thought.. boats are like cars, the more you use them the better they run. Sounds counter intuitive, but try parking a car in your driveway and only driving it once or so a year and let me know how good it runs. People that bitch about boats don’t use them often enough, so the motor gums up and when you’re ready to use it you have to clean the carb or whatever. You’re either a boat person or your not. You’re either gonna buy a boat and use it often and it will work well, or you’re gonna buy a boat and use it once or twice in the summer and bitch because you “always have to work on it.” I know winter is cold so you probably won’t use it then, but if you can’t see yourself regularly using your boat in the spring, summer, AND fall, then don’t buy one.

[Anonymous No.1582535]

>>1582534
Here’s the finished project. I used marine grade paint and if I could do it again, I would advise brushing/rolling the paint on and not spraying it on. I sprayed when it was hot and was rushing it, so the paint got all bumpy for some reason. The inside wall feels like rinoliner but oh well, it’s not a fancy yacht or anything it’s just a fishing boat. I really wanted a pop up camper to rebuild, but honestly to use one you have to give up a whole weekend to go camping. I chose a boat instead because I can take me and the wife to the lake for a few hours and have fun, then we come back home and have the rest of the day. We don’t have to give up a whole weekend just to use the toy like we would have to with a camper. Follow your dreams bud.

[Anonymous No.1582538]

>>1582464

Find a cabin cruiser powered with a gas engine. Big enough to feel big but small enough to not cost 10k annually. The guy who said don't buy a boat of you're allergic to spending was absolutely correct. I bought a 2018 Lund impact xs 1775 last summer because I fish often but also like to just relax on the water. The fuel injected 4 stroke is decent on gas compared to my old 2 stroke and everything is under an outstanding warranty. I go in and out rather than mooring so I don't pay for a slip. I still spend quite a bit on boating, but it is my favorite pastime so no qualms. Just for your info. It is my 3rd boat and each has gotten progressively larger. This is as large as I will go until retirement in 25 years at which time I'll get something in the 19ft range.

[Anonymous No.1582539]

>>1582535
Quality boat build I like it. Going to be helping my cousin restore a mid 80s 16ft Crestliner with a 60hp Johnson this weekend.

[Anonymous No.1582554]

>>1582535
Looks good, mate. You should be proud.

[Anonymous No.1582564]

>>1582538
>Find a cabin cruiser powered with a gas engine.
Gas makes a harder sell down the line for boats that are mostly enclosed, a good number of boat people will have nothing to do with gas engines since its fumes are heavier than air and settle in the bilge. So you show up to your boat after it has been sitting closed up for a week or two and find out you have a potential bomb on your hands and are surrounded by potential ignition points in the packed marina. I good marine diesel is always an easier sell and boats with them generally fetch a better price.

[Milwaukee No.1582571]

whatever dollar amount you expect this new hobby to cost double it and then youll probably be almost there.

dont buy a gas they lick bag, get something with a cummins diesel or get something and throw a cummins in it. you cant beat the reliability of a cummins, im sure some people will try to argue with me but ive spent my
life working on every diesel engine known to mankind and i can say without a doubt cummins is #1. #2 caterpillar/perkins #3 all the rest are literally throw in the scrap bin tier. this is coming from somebody who has heavy roots with the caterpillar distributor,

as far as learning all that shit i cant say if you can or cant as i dont know you from a hole in the dirt. but if you dont try i can say for certain that you wont learn a thing.

do you have any experience at all in any of that, what have you done your whole life

[Anonymous No.1582574]

>>1582499
Blistering of the hull and delamination/wet and rotting cores in the deck/cabin are the two big things that can not be ignored. They are not difficult fixes as long as the issue has not been neglected, not fun work though and slow. If you have cored decks you will almost certainly have to pull every bit of deck tackle, it is a prime spot for water intrusion into the core and things like cleats take a good amount of abuse, even if it is not cored it would be wise to pull it all and rebed, add reinforcement if there is none, replace if rotted.

General odds and ends on old boats.
Check and replace/upgrade all thru hull fittings, anyone of them failing will sink you in short order and production boats tend to use cheap fittings.
Check window gaskets and replace if need as well as any old plexi that has gone cloudy.
Check over the entire engine and electrical system, control lines, tanks, everything, you won't have an auxiliary propulsion source on a boat like this, so you want everything to be perfect and not just good enough and have spares for everything.
Check bulkheads for rot and make sure they are still attached to the hull tabbing.
Check water tanks, empty and disinfect the entire water system, you have no idea how the previous owners treated those tanks or what they put in it.
Check head and its holding tanks, old boat may not have a holding tank which is a must these days, you will be found out if you are dumping your shit in marina waters.

All I can think of at the moment. I would grab a copy of "This Old Boat," it covers most all of the work and issues you may come across in old glass boats as well as how to go about improvements and the like, cheap and plentiful on the used market. It is somewhat irritatingly written, but it covers most everything and is not just a picture book like most these days, about 500 pages jammed with information.

[Anonymous No.1582575]

>>1582571
I have never seen a marine diiesel of this size by cummins or cat? Fairly certain I have seen perkins, think they my have hit that market big for awhile.

[Milwaukee No.1582581]

>>1582575

cummins makes an engine suited for any size marine, 5.9l im gonna say is their smallest and probably upwards of over 70l is the biggest maybe even bigger like 80l or 90l

[Anonymous No.1582586]

>>1582581
Worth looking into then, OP should remember while engine shopping, many of these boats were designed around certain engine and replacing it with anything else of suitable size can make access very difficult. The production boats try to maximize all space, generally at the cost of access to the the ships systems, great fun when you discover you can not turn a nut because someone thought molded in cup holders would be a great use of that wasted space around the engine!

[Milwaukee No.1582597]

>>1582586

great point

[Anonymous No.1582603]

>>1582571
>do you have any experience at all in any of that
Nope, none whatsoever.

I'm a reasonably practical and intelligent person, but I have no experience with mechanical systems or carpentry outside of knocking up chicken coops and fencing with my parents.

>what have you done your whole life
Good question.

I see old (10 years) engines for sale with thousands of hours on them for a few grand. Is there anything particularly to avoid regarding second-hand engines or are they basically not worth the trouble? Is maintaining/repairing a big engine completely out of the abilities of a home workshop? What kind of stuff can someone realistically fix on a big engine?

Thanks for the advice re: brands.

>>1582574
Thanks anon, will definitely check out that book.

[Anonymous No.1582623]

>>1582489
Forgot to respond to this one.

I could not even guess at the costs for this on the other side of the world. If it is $6k a year, that is not bad for 45', assuming their prices for haulouts, fuel and such are reasonable. If you are going to get this boat insured you may be required to have a yearly haulout and even if you do not get it insured or are not required to have a yearly haulout you will be doing it at least every 2 years for barnacle scrapping and bottom paint. I would probably add at least another 1K to that for the odds and ends I mentioned in the post with the book rec. This is one of those things you should plan for the worst and hope for the best.

And I forgot to say earlier, generally on more expensive craft people get a survey done which will provide you with full report on the boat. In the US the standard is that if the seller has not had a survey done, the seller and the potential buyer split to cost and enter into a contract while the boat is being surveyed, the contract could be anything from just that they will not sell the boat before the survey is done and you make your offer all the way to a commitment to buy with final price determined after the survey, sometimes the buyers half of the survey cost will also be considered part of the closing costs. There are no rules here, they do not have to put anything into the survey costs, do not even have to let you survey it. it is worth looking into, they have all the tools and skills needed to find problems before they get big and the report will make it much easier to estimate costs.

Are your waters always so brown or is that just the rainy season?

[Anonymous No.1582648]

>>1582455
Not starting the post like sir mixalot. I am disappoint.

[Anonymous No.1582893]

>>1582603
>Is there anything particularly to avoid regarding second-hand engines or are they basically not worth the trouble?
Depends. Some things like engines will be lasting a long time because they happened to come out of the manufacturing process of a significantly superior quality to other engines by pure luck, and as such have far greater longevity than expected. Looking at these kinds of engines is really a head game with the seller, the main things to check would be whether and how they run, any oil filters to see if there's significant accumulation of metal grit in there, and the state of the oil itself. None of those things are definitive but it'll give you a clue about the state of the engine and owners tend to open up about how they maintained it and if they've noticed some issues. I'd look up the specific engine and find out what the typical issues people have with them, someone on a forum somewhere will have said something.

To give a little anecdote, I've been looking at acquiring a small but efficient diesel engine for a project and was looking at the one they used to put in stuff like the VW Lupo way back. It's possible to buy parts like the engine block for it, but the way the engine itself was designed according to OEM docs means that if you take the bolts off that hold the engine together the block itself actually deforms and becomes junk. That is pretty shit and means that there are people selling what amounts to scrap. It's that kind of engine specific research that will give you an idea of what to avoid, who is being unscrupulous and also should be avoided.

[Anonymous No.1582894]

>>1582564
That's a good point that i hadn't considered. Not interested in watercraft of that size personally. OP could also look at a 90's era Lund Baron or similar boat with a cabin, in the 22ft range.

[Captain Crustydick No.1583037]

1/2
Do not buy a wooden boat. Just don't.

Don't buy a boat with a cored hull, solid fiberglass is the way to go.

Don't buy a boat with wet decks.

Don't expect good marine engines to be cheap. Don't expect installing them to be easy. Same goes for transmissions.

Fiberglass work is tedious, but a monkey could learn it.

Speaking of cost, no one is exaggerating when they tell you everything will be expensive. Boat paint is expensive, the cheap shit runs around US $100 per gallon. The good shit is north of $300/gal.

Don't buy a boat that doesn't float. Don't buy a boat that doesn't run if you are not factoring in engine replacement.

Buy a boat with fuel injected engines if you can.

You don't have to fall for the diesel meme. Yes, diesels are better. They are also safer. They are much more expensive. Buying new engines, you have to burn quite a few grand in diesel to make up for the extra cost over just buying gas.


This year I bought a early 70s Pacemaker 40' MY for 6 grand. The decks are wet, but the engines are 2004 era mercruisers with 200 hours, practically brand new. The rest of the mechanical was replaced at the same time.

I have already spent probably twice that on getting the mechanical up to spec and making the interior liveable. I have a lot more work and money to spend ahead. I'm planning on living on it.

Coming from first hand experience, you shouldn't be asking yourself how much boat you can afford, but instead how small of a boat will fulfill your needs. The bigger you go, the more expensive everything gets. Slip fees, paint, fuel, anchors, line, haulouts, everything. Every foot of boat increases the square area of the hull and decks many times over.

[Captain Crustydick No.1583040]

2/2

Guess how long it'll take me to strip, paint and wax the hull? 40x15 (length times beam) is 600 square feet of just bottom (a little off since that's a square measurement). At least double that for the top. A 30' of the same draft would only be 450 square feet.

15-25 footers are great day/weekend cruisers. Put it on the trailer and park it once you're done.

30' to 35' is a great liveaboard size.

Above 50' the number of marinas that can accommodate your size of boat drop considerably.

I'm glad I found a 40' instead of the 45-48 I was aiming for. Single handing her on a calm day is no problem. But even a little wind or current catches the full 40' and can make docking a huge pain. In the end, someone will always have a bigger/nicer/faster boat than yours.

[Anonymous No.1583050]

>>1582455
Cheap sail boats and free sail boats can be had, but be prepared for work. Youtube is your friend. The bigger the boat the more work and cost. Think about whats important the size of the boat or the dream of the water. I would advise sail. They are cheaper to buy but more work to run single handed a lot more. Browse craigslist, find someone that is giving up their dream but still loves the idea. They may just be willing to teach you everything about the boat for a little bit of help. Best of luck, a boat is nothing more than a hole in the water that you put money into!

[Anonymous No.1583291]

>>1582455
Just rent one when you need one.

[Anonymous No.1583329]

Here is my latest acquisition

A 19 foot sea ray, it came complete with trailer and titles for both so I'm already legally registered and insured. Free on CL.

It has been sitting but the hull is solid, motor was winterized about 4 years ago since it's last use and all fluids look good. I'm about a week away from starting maintenance and making sure the motor runs before cleaning the body and re-caulking the windows and hatch.

Information is sparse online and I can't even register on the manufacturer's website. Tips?

[Anonymous No.1583503]

>>1582455

[Anonymous No.1583518]

>>1583503

thread has 33 replies, kid. fuck off with your bingo shit.

protip: if a thread has 2 or 3 hate replies, then post your gay bingo card. otherwise, fuck off.

[Anonymous No.1583534]

>>1583518
no I think I will keep doing it.

[Milwaukee No.1583739]

>>1582603

>Is there anything particularly to avoid regarding second-hand engines or are they basically not worth the trouble

well unless youre prepared to drop anywhere from 20-80 grand for a brand new cummins i dont think you have much choice.

the good news is old diesels are perfectly fine. again, i wouldnt even consider buying anything but cummins. the older cummins are a very desirable engine, because they are nearly indestructable, and very easy to work on. one of the major pros of the older motors (if you can get one pre-full authority fuel systems) is the rotary injection pump instead of common rail. dont get me wrong when i say this as common rail is superior if you have the knowledge and equipment to work on it. but the older rotary style the parts are all way way cheaper and theyre 100 times easier to work on for someone that is learning as they go.

the reason im such a cummins shill is because theyre (for the most part) a straight six(some say inline six). this means that each cylinder is in organized in a straight line. one after another. and being a six cylinder means its inheritely balanced. motors with less or more cylinders, except the v12, use balancing gear to accomplish what a straight six does inheritely which just further complicates things.

>Is maintaining/repairing a big engine completely out of the abilities of a home workshop? What kind of stuff can someone realistically fix on a big engine?

realistically you can fix everything on a big engine, with just basic hand tools. you dont need anything fancy, a torque wrench would be a worthy investment for things like head bolts and bearing caps

more recent cummins also doesnt use a liner, they bore their jugs right into the block. motors with liners often have problems and anything liner related means a lot of work. heads gotta come off, piston and rod out, etc. some have dry liners rather wet liners which can cocksuckers because you gotta shrink em with dry ice or nitrogen pre-install

[Milwaukee No.1583750]

>>1583739

forgot to mention, regarding the cummins and straight sixes in general, with the cylinders all in line and the pistons travelling straight up and down, theres very little sideways forces on the cylinders. compared to a say a V8 where you often see heavy wear on the major thrust surfaces due to the angle of piston travel. this in turn adds to the already long life of a cummins.

the lifespan of an engine can be broken down into 2 things; maintenance and operating conditions.

and engine that runs at a continuous high rpm will outlast a motor that gets stopped and started and runs in all operating ranges. what really kills
diesels is cold starts, and unfortunately theres not much that can be done to eliminate this. when the motor sits after its been shut off, all the oil drains and runs off all the wear surfaces. when its being fired up, it takes a split second for the oil pump to re-supply oil, so everything runs dry for that amount of time. if possible to leave your motor run, let it run. but never let it idle at low idle (750rpm). diesels, especially cummins (geardriven cam) hate low idle as gears dont mesh well and they run too cold and slobber all over the place. diesels love a heavy pull, too many people think that working a motor hard reduces its life which is just not true. never baby a diesel.

always buy good (caterpillar ultra-high efficiency micron rating) filters. especially fuel filters. this keeps your injectors in good shape. if you cant see daylight through your air filter, replace it. replace your inner air filter every other service interval (i like 300 hrs)

ignore the guy that says to check the condition of the oil to see how the engine has been maintained. unless you really really know what youre looking at it will all just look like shit, on newer models anyways. newer tier motors use an EGR which recycles exhaust gases and they carbon up the oil within seconds on a fresh oilchange. and no some motors dont magically last longer.

[Milwaukee No.1583762]

>>1583750

anyways some common failures (but not guaranteed) and their symptoms;

>head gasket shits itself (oil in coolant, overheating, blowing white smoke)
>main or rod bearings worn (knocking, low oil pressure)
>injector failure (knocking "fuel knock", wont rev up)
>turbo seals (blue smoke)
>waterpump (overheating, sloppy pulley)
>thermostat (overheating)

and some common operation issues and possible fixes

>no crank no start no click (ignition switch, ignition relay, or battery connections/cables/voltages

>no crank no start yes click (solenoid contact corroded not letting power get through to starter (likely) or starter winding fucked (not as likely)

>crank no start (fuel system not primed, crank pos sensor, low oil level, low coolant level, charge air leak, intake heater(cummins)/glow plug relay)

theres a few things just to give you something of an idea. keep in mind you can do all this shit with basic tools. except to remove the gear off the end of the injection pump you need an easily-home made puller. a plate with a few threaded holes.

when doing any repairs, take pictures, stay organized, and always mark the position of things like gears etc. put everything back where it came in the same order. never put cylinder #1 pushrod into cylinder #2 etc etc

keeping everything in time is easier than re timing in most cases

[Milwaukee No.1583764]

>>1583762

one last thing.

rule of thumb for troubleshooting a diesel is:

blue smoke = oil
black smoke = fuel
white smoke = coolant

this is true in 99% of scenarios

[Anonymous No.1583774]

>>1582455
>I LIKE BIG BOATS AND I CANNOT LIE!
sorry, that's as far as I got

[Anonymous No.1583801]

You can get old Detroit diesels for nearly free

[Anonymous No.1584333]

>>1582513
bravo

[Milwaukee No.1584339]

>>1583801

detroits run like a wet fart

[Anonymous No.1584435]

OP here, sorry I disappeared. I got a 3 day ban.

Thanks everyone for your advice. I do read and appreciate all of it.

My mum has decided she wants to go camping in far North Queensland so I think what I might do is get a small tinny with an outboard to fix up that we can haul on top of a fourbie to get some experience, and see how I like it, before taking on a bigger project at some point in the future. I'm going to save this thread though because I'm sure that sooner or later I'm going to want a bigger boat.

>>1583739
>>1583750
>>1583762
Thanks for the help anon. I know literally nothing about engines other than make boom go go vroom, so I appreciate every tip.

[Anonymous No.1584588]

>>1583329
My recommendation is to do ZERO work on the trailer. That should be the very last thing you do after the boat is 100% fixed. That way if you can’t fix the boat, you won’t have wasted any money on the trailer. Check the transom area really well, you could have rot and not know it. Especially if there was a depth finder transducer back there at one point. 50/50 bleach/water to remove the black mold. The most important thing is any soft spots. Don’t fix the motor until the boat itself is good to go. Get the boat to float safely and be solid first, then work on propelling it through the water, then finally work on the thing that transports it.